Social Placebo - An Autopsy with Guest Theo

This week, Theo pulls back the curtain on his time in the rooms. Theo went at AA wholeheartedly: he worked the steps thrice+ over, followed the program with incredible precision, had a sponsor, and had his own batch of sponsees. So what finally made him get out of Dodge? He traces the surprising overlap between Scientology and AA, recounts his exposure to the Freedom Model and Writing the Big Book, and breaks down other paths to sobriety like Recovery Dharma and SMART Recovery.

Drop everything and listen. Theo was all in, and now he's telling the truth about these meetings that most people won't say out loud.

Show notes at https://www.patreon.com/cw/inrecovery

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey everyone, welcome back. This is only episode three, so bear with me as I figure out the kinks here. This episode's audio is a little rough in spots. I used a recording tool that was supposed to filter out background noise with AI, and instead it decided to get creative. You might hear some weird ghost-like sounds pop up here and there, and that's on me. Not the guest, Theo. He was sitting at a Starbucks and he asked me ahead of time if the music in the background would be disruptive, and I said no. And I promised him the platform would handle it, and it did not. We also hit a few stretches where the connection got wonky and his audio or my audio dropped out or got choppy. So not a perfect recording, but a genuinely great conversation. Theo brought some seriously good insight, and I didn't want to delay this episode just because the tech didn't cooperate. So stick with it through the rough patches because what he has to say is so worth it. So all right, let's crosstalk. All right, welcome to another episode of In Recovery from Alcoholics Anonymous, where Crosstalk is welcome. And I am here with Theo, and we're ready to crosstalk. How are you doing today, Theo?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Hello. Doing really well, Mary.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Now, um, feel free to share whatever background you're comfortable with. Like you knew you had a problem. When do you need to go to rehab, or did you just go straight to a program? Did you know about 12 steps or what resources were available to you, or did you know about?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

My mom. People close to me in my family, multiple people, are in AA for like the long term. They don't take it too seriously. I don't necessarily see them doing steps and all these concerts and posse and stuff, but they are they are sober AA makers. So I always was aware of it in the back of my mind. And then in high school, when I was 17, I just smoked a bunch of weed and I tried to stop. It was weird. I had it in my head that weed would affect me like Adderall and help me pay attention in class. And because I believed that, it was true. Oh I started smoking weed like five times a day, and for the first time got straight A's, you know, it was super weird.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

That's sick though. I mean I I'm sort of jealous. I wish I had that. Go ahead, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

I was kind of like, okay, I don't need to do this anymore, and tried to stop.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

I found extreme difficulty.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

And I knew these people close to me and my family doing this thing. Kind of decided that I couldn't do this with weed. That's when I explored AA for the first time. I honestly had a uh really good experience, you know, as a 17-year-old. It was a fun time, and I met a bunch of really great people, you know. I guess I didn't pay too much attention to what was actually being taught. I I was too busy making friends. And it was really exciting to hear these crazy, like, violence, like basically humble brats of like, yo, I used King Pitt. Don't be like me. That was exciting to me anyway. You know. Several sexual people that like I did not come into contact with in my valley life, and they were saying super intense demo, so it's like, that's just like on, you know?

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah.

unknown 3:32

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Like just lurid, like almost like an like an action movie, you know?

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Exactly. And you start to feel cool. I definitely felt like cooler when I was started with AA. It's like, oh, I know these like hard people. That means I'm kind of hard.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

You yeah. Exactly. I'm not like you guys. Like I call my boys right now. And even thinking of myself as like, oh, I'm an addict, even that's a form of feeling special. Cause it's like, oh yeah, you guys drink your beer, but you don't understand I can't do that because I go crazy. Cause I am an addict. I'm not like you guys, you know. Yeah, I should finish that story. At seven, I took AA really seriously 14 months when I was 17. Yeah. And then I left completely for nine years. And then it was back in 2020 when I came back into the full and freaking went to rehab and did AA after that. That's when I started taking AA most seriously of any time in my life. And that's when I took the steps with a sponsor. That's when I got a couple spot C's and there's a step to them. So really like this the AA I experienced at 17 was my first taste.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

The real like bulk of my AA experiences since 2020 where I live.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Okay. And so did you go from rehab to like sober living to AA?

SPEAKER_01 4:46

I went from rehab to sober living to living with my girlfriend that I met straight out of rehab.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

I mean that's just what I did, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

That's perfect. But yeah, so you were all in an AA then. Uh did you hear about like smart recovery or Sinclair?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

I find Sinclair, no, heck no. Um, not a core idea. And I think it's like negative conditioning where you take naltrexone and then drink. So every time you drink, you puke. That's supposed to like help you associate jerking with puking and not want to do it. I don't know. Prefer to have a high trick.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

So it's like passages, some like Malibu rehab. Okay, so that's what Sinclair is. I should be looking more into this. I know all one would know about 12-step meetings, but nothing about Sinclair and other meetings, okay, which is great to have you on.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

And I f I find that the the mentions of like smart are very kind of cursory and casual, and basically everybody will just say the name, but nobody ever discusses, even in a sentence, what is it? Like everybody's like, oh yeah, there's smart, there's dharma, and that's all they ever say. I'm like, okay, but what are those things? So yeah, I had to that's when I had to look Dharma too. Dharma's cool, you know?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah, you've been to Dharma?

SPEAKER_01 5:57

I've been to Dharma a few times, and every time I get such a great vibe, and I'm like, there's a cooler approach. I like how they include process addictions and stuff like Smart does. I think that's kind of cool and important, I guess. Yeah. Alcoholics Anonymous is like so like specific to I always was never I was never addicted to alcohol, was other BS that wasn't my thing. So I always was just weirded out that the main anti-addiction group was so specifically alcohol. Yeah. Most people were not just alcoholics.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Majority, I mean, not majority, I don't know the statistics, but like I definitely was not really that wasn't my f main addiction. So when the old timers would be like no opiates, I'm like, I'm not going to NA. Like, I'm not going to an NA meeting right now. I'm not about to put myself through that nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

For real. And also just like logistically, then you have to figure out where else to go and when to get like it's just and and they and they just has, I don't know. I've always been a little weirded out.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah, I don't want to go to the circus, and I don't want to go to NA either. You already talked about your benefits at age 17, which is kind of fun. It's like a fun after school program where you're around junkies and uh uh It really.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

That's exactly what it is.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Yeah, it's like youth group but like harder, like knuckle tattoos, and then uh it's like Bible camp, but like thug at thug Bible camp. So which benefits did you take away from AA in 2020, which must have been interesting because of quarantine and pandemic stuff going on.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

That's true. Well, I've thought a lot about this. I've even like wrote lists of what I like about AA because sometimes I start sipping on my hater aids and start really hating on it. Um one thing I agree with is the general philosophy that abstinence is easier than moderation. Like, I don't know. For me, that's true. Like it's easier to fucking just not do it than do a little bit and know more. Like I just can't. Or when I when I do it goes poorly. So I agree with that general philosophy. I also love how they figured out the social thing, you know? They figured out a way to embed it and everybody is like, well, that's this convenient and works, and that's like cool and typical. Uh I also enjoy I can trying to write your wrongs in general is a good thing. I don't know like the structure they put around it is like the perfect one for every transgression, but like trying to write your wrongs, I could see that being connected to like being helping everybody soap, frankly. Uh and helping other people is cool too. So the general ideas of all those stuff, like basically just like if if I blur my eyes and look at them, it says like admit there's something really going on, try and right your wrongs, help others, like be calm and meditate sometimes. And I can get behind all those things, you know? I can't really like get behind how the steps themselves are worth it, but I can get behind the general, general, general ideas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

So that's probably for my somewhere where everyone else had the same problems and also felt horrible about it. So you're like, oh, I'm actually not alone on this, and then the steps, and I feel like just rephrasing amends to writing or wrongs, but also just do leaps and bounds.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

I agree. This people's idea of my like my buddies and I would always joke about a living amends, aka not doing shit. Like there's somebody just living amends going on. Well, if I see them, maybe I'll say that like, come on, bro, you're not doing shit.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

I love the living amends one. It's more like the I'll feel bad about it for the rest of my life, but I'll spare them the gory details. But you know what? Sometimes amends can hurt people more than help people.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

So Super true. Super true. I don't believe in groveling before people like fucking abuse.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Oh, it's it is for the drunk more so than the other person, because a lot of times we have to accept they don't want to talk to us ever again. Did you have did you go so you it sounds like you went through all the steps?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Yes, I did.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

It sounds like more than once too. Oh, you definitely Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

I did it a few times and then I did it with Sponseys a few times. Oh yeah. And uh there were some big benefits to like like with another homely. Yeah. Strange personal things and never would have like come to this room arise. And some interesting revelations came, especially for doing steps with Sponsees. Like, I don't want to like go into detail, but one Sponsey realized he needed to get a surgery. Like it was just a personal step point on because of the steps, you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, and that that's probably the more rewarding thing about the steps, I'd say. What made you do you think because you said you were pretty much like the guy doing AA present, very dedicated. Do you have an idea of what made you do that? Or is it just because you really wanted to get your life together, which is totally understandable?

SPEAKER_01 11:12

That's a great question, and one I really have not thought about a lot. I think um it was something to do. Here's the thing whatever is around when people decide to make a really serious healthy change in their life randomly winds up getting credit for the healthy change. Like when it's really the desperation and like I can't do this like type of feelings that motivate people to change. But yeah, they're chilling at the VA while it happens for the rest of their life. That's where the VA is best gets so weird. So I think uh the program's kind of like that. Like it it basically just happened to be around during a time when I was making a really serious and positive change in my life. And so I credited it with that healthy change, even though really I just made a decision and everyone just makes a decision, and that's the truth. Anyway, it was a really great way to make friends, it was fun. It was uh It kind of started as this really great thing. As time went on, it became a bit of a burden and an obligation because uh I I just was getting disillusioned, kind of one idea by one by one and uh na ideas. And uh at the beginning there, it was so fun to basically make new friends, get super vulnerable, and like at least pretend to myself and really others that like I was serious about making a change. But by the time I had been in it for a year plus, the kind of redemption arc narrative that everybody's required to fit their story into was growing real spay.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

And I was like, this terabot I've read.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Like, come up really young Christians. So why don't we read the Bible? Because at least it has more interesting shit. Like, this is like it's just r religion, but like watered down. Really, you believed in Jesus, like you know you did. So fucking why not just read the Bible and have better numbers?

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Yeah, I okay, so I guess I don't even have to ask if you think it's a religious group or not. Uh confirmed. He shakes.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

There's nothing wrong with that. I like the looping. Yeah. You know what I mean? I have no bad like associations with it. Uh to me, it's like clearly a religion. Anywhere you hold pins and say the Lord's prayer, come on, this is your religion. And it's okay. At times it's been my religion, and I've at some of those times I've been really happy. So there's nothing wrong with like having a religion.

unknown 13:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Spiritual, not religious makes sense, but it's like saying this is blue, not blue. Like, I'm like, what? It's the same pattern.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah, that's actually really good. I'm gonna use that from now on. This is blue, not blue. I uh I I think my problem with a spiritual aspect really was not that it was religious, but they kept saying it wasn't. But then they was kept telling us to use God anyway and stuff, and I was like, that's a problem to me. So straight up.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

And you hear people say, use the doorknob as your higher power. But here's the thing: nobody's getting a year of sobriety with the doorknob as their higher power. All of them eventually change and morph and evolve into basically a like male personified entity in the sky. Like that's where the hot leads you. Ain't nobody worshiping a doorknob at year two.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

So in the big book, they were saying how you know it's uh non-denominational and we do have science backed up. And of course, it's the doctor and Carl Jung saying, Yeah, but it's uh scientifically proven that you need a spiritual entity to find a solution. I'm like, so it's religious. They're like, just come in, it's fine, we'll figure it out later. And they're like, but it is a Christian God.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

For sure. So that'll be quoted as saying there is a definite religious element here. It's clearly a religion, I guess. We agnostics chapter. My buddy who is an agnostic with ringing the we agnostic, she's like, oh, a chapter that's gonna let the the agnostic into the holy system and teach how we can be a part of it.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

Yeah. She's this is conversion.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

It's conversion. It's so true because it's in conversion. I was rereading We Agnostics the other day, and I was like, oh, but they ended up stopping agnostic and became Christian.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Straight up. Like, guys, you know you're Christian. It's so basically what wakes me up, my final like level of like wigging out on this stuff, because first I I read a book called The Freedom Model that really systematically that was like the biggest game changer for me. And I highly recommend that to everybody. I do think uh it's a little bit axe grindy for me. It's a little bit like these motherfuckers just want to hate on AA, and they do it articulately and effectively, but also like they don't propose their own dope alternative. Um Another book that blew my mind was called Writing the Big Book. It was a book about the process of writing the big book. And that shit made me just like LOL at the whole thing. Like, I'm like, oh my god. This motherfucker buildup was such a piece of shit. Writing the big book is approved, by the way, by Lois Wilson, uh for Stepping Stones Foundation. So it's like it got a lot of legitimacy.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

What do you what was some of the revelations from writing the big book? Do you have one or two takeaways from that?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Yes. I think it was just the utter humanity of the people creating this uh big book, like really. It was just the flaws. Like, there's this wacky guy, Frank Butchman. He I don't even know if I'm saying that by it, but Frank.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

I couldn't tell Bookman or Butchman. Yeah, Frank Butchman or Bookman from Oxford Group.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Yeah, well, he had a checkered and colorful life, and like he developed these beliefs in the Oxford group, and like Evie became a fanatic and converted Bill, and then they started off with just six steps in AA, just you know, so and then they expanded this as well, but like the whole thing was the Oxford group is explicit with Christianity. So it's like just changing it to God of your understanding is like if you're gonna do that, you have to also change how you describe God, because then we then we turn around and say him. I'm like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah, the steps are just a continuation of the Oxford group. And do you do you know about how Frank Butchman or Frank Buchmann tried to convert Hitler? He was like, Oh, I liked what he did with the the I know he did some smooth. Hitler was like, I don't, I don't, I don't want anything to do with you.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Lay me up, lay off rejected by Hitler, that's ice called.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yeah. And then they tried to distance themselves after Frank Buchmann did that, but they kept his theologies, which is also like, okay, so you still are fully entwined in like those beliefs, and yet this guy did that. You just didn't want his PR anymore. Uh have you ever witnessed or experienced sponsorship abuse?

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yes. Absolutely, I have. I've seen sponsors reveal really deeply hell-embarrassing secrets from someone's from their sponsees for stem. And like to the point where it made me feel really icky even here. Is a wow. Uh I've seen really weird uh relationships that blend sponsorship with like employments. So I've seen like people employ their sponsees stuff, and I think that's a very strange. And I've seen Oh my gosh, I've even uh known one sponsor, or one specified but under. But the sponsor is rumored to make love to the sponsors student when the student completes a four-step and all kind of sponsorship is going on is like the idea of a sponsor invites abuse. It's an odd idea when you think about like it's a non-professional that you invite to consider your deepest trauma. But the other thing that are really set me free on this whole like thing was learning about Scientology, funny enough. Because um, I read a lot of books about it, and I basically I really understand like everybody says Scientology is that they don't say what Scientology is, so I like want to figure it out. Uh I would really say there's two a major American spiritual like post-Gormanism, and that would be AA and Scientology. They are both the same core idea, which is that you can pair up with another non-professional and solve one another's mental health problem. And that's a wacky idea. Like that's the idea of dianetics and the idea of AA. So when I started learning that, and I don't know. It also each one involves an element of confession, you know, like AA Holes that likes mastering a fourth step, but Oh, is it collateral, or what did you call it?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Auditing, that's right. Yeah. So they have collateral on you, that's what it is. Yeah, auditing, so they have collateral on you.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

And they're both super anti-psychiatry. Like, Scientology is like explicitly what's called back bientry, like these guys are wrong, and AA doesn't say anything explicitly, but all the members are kind of like sober.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah, they do say from the head up nothing. No Prozac or Zoloft, no Advil. Damn, Scientology and AA really are pseudo-psychiatry motherfuckers.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah, I see how we find. And what I just kind of like merged AA and Scientology in my mind and realized that they were so similar. And uh that's when I was like, oh my god, we're solving.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Yeah, I'm kind of having that crazy moment right now as you explain this, because I well, all of it, the collateral, the editing, and then like Pacific grouping so similar to Scientology with the medicine.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Pacific grouping crazy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Clancy was like the old G. And then they say there's no hierarchy. Okay, do you believe there's hierarchy in uh Alcoholics Anonymous in 12-step meetings?

SPEAKER_01 21:08

I think they're obviously I think it's like it cult, it's like an open source cult framework for KitRu create their own many cults like Clancy and the Pacific group. That's like, I guess, my take on it. Uh because at at some meetings, when it's just like five or ten people, it doesn't feel like there's any type of social hierarchy. But when you give like a hundred blessed people together, especially when you start putting it a church, it gets hierarchied real fast. So uh I do think there's an obvious high it's such a silly self-contradictory idea because first off, it's all about one day at a time, but then it's about how many consecutive days have you put together though? Because that's how I'm gonna judge you. That's an odd idea. Like are are days important or unimportant? I do see, I think any meeting bigger than 10 people has a hierarchy, and the hierarchy tends to be who's got the most time and it is close to the few.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah, exactly. It's very uh subjective and it's also the people who sit back and are all quiet and then make that really loud exhaling and you're just like distracted by them and they're like, Yeah, I have the most time and I can exhale because I don't give a fuck about n nothing can bother me. Life is so good. Um have you witnessed or like felt power and control dynamics by people in your past meetings?

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Yes. I would say so. I think the founders of meetings in particular, feel ownership. Yeah. Uh just the other day I walked in like um this one's like, well, you can't read because this meeting is only Villal Alcoholics Read. And I was like, well, what? She's talking to me. No, she was talking to a random woman whose turn it was to read from the big book, because it was a big book meeting. Um and the woman's like, well, I'm an ally or I'm here for here to like sport or whatever it was. And this woman, well, you can't read secretary was like, no, ma'am, I'm letting go read. There's just a face on for like two or three minutes between these two people. And I was like, damn, talk about a power dynamic, you know? Like I switched in like that all the time.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah. It's just like control and micromanagement. Uh I feel like they are always using the principles of the book to like control people and use the power and those sort of small reasons, like someone just reading the big book and they're like, Let me just uh pull out what kind of tools I can to like cut down everyone else and be right.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

The big book is below 100%. So if you just know it really well, you can use it to justify anything. So it supports everything.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Oh, when you first heard Alcoholics Anonymous is a that alcoholism is an allergy. What was your first thought?

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Do you remember? I do.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

I always remember thinking that's very abstract. That's like saying alcohol's cubism or something to me. Like I was just like, what does that fucking mean? What's an allergy again? I don't really know. I only know from content. Uh I don't know. Now that you can just Google it or ask Claude, you know, it's like it has at worst, and alcoholism does not fit into it.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Did people ever argue with you that no, but it is an allergy?

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Has there been those kind of like I try not to argue with people about it because like I definitely don't think it's like a dis you know? And I think the disease is silly. Yeah. But at the same time, it's like not worth arguing because I thought about it a fucking lot, and nobody else has thought about it more than five minutes. So it's like a silly disgusting anyway. That allergy is insane. Disease is like a fuck at stretch, dude. It's like that disease. My first reaction to hearing the alcohol was a physical allergy was that I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

That that's just a bit like silly.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Yeah, I uh remember somewhere in the book, oh, I think it says more about alcoholism or something. They're saying they compare it to cancer and treating cancer and stuff. I'm like, nope, that that's they are not the same guys. Bad example, guys.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Terrible example. And also, if come and had a for going out of control, you wouldn't kick them out and say, like, come back later. Like exactly or refer to the other all Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

And when people say they have permission to not come back, do you feel there's an underlying threat? Like you don't have to go back to meetings, but you will die, or you don't have to go to meetings, but you will relapse, or you don't have, but we'll see you again. So do you feel like there's a freedom to leave, or do you have you felt that at least, or do you feel that there's an underlying message behind it?

SPEAKER_01 25:49

You know, I see uh I see a couple sides of it. I do I mean Scientology of excommunication. Jehovah's Witnesses practice excommunication, but I think like any Orthodox community probably tracks excommunication, and I don't think AA practices it explicitly, other than places like Gender Group would probably do. And I bet they invented their own fucking word for it. Uh see, so we're not gonna hang out with guys on drugs. So I see that side. I do think AA people have a tendency to assume you are drugs or some shit like that. And in my experience, it's only the close friends that made an AA that I've been able to like stay friends with outside of AA. Yeah. I do think there is a at least a I call it a soft ass communication that happens when someone loses AA and it's not as like explicit as, you know, Scientologists or Jehovah's Witnesses, but it exists.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Do you think it do you wait, what? What was the last thing you said? I just said what do you? Oh, I personally felt like if I um if I for many years I just thought if I left, then that means I will relapse or I will die. And I just thought there was no chance because I did see that every once in a while. What I didn't know is that like the people who did die, they were like doing hardcore the best they could in Alcoholics Anonymous, having like five spot five sponsors going to a meeting at least once a day, past the 90 and 90, doing everything their sponsor told them, and plus like juggling a job and school and stuff. And then they would get mad and then go out and go hard. And so during COVID times, I lost six people from fentanyl-related deaths because they were pissed at AA. And then I yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was I was in San Francisco, so it was just not a good time for San Francisco at all because like fentanyl was just like boom, boom, boom, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

I was there in 2020. That's when I'm down to where I live. And I was just there lost actually. Oh, yeah. Well, it's coming back, but back in COVID, SAP was crazy with what you're gonna eat. So I've seen the studies that say that um exposure to false step by biology increases subsequent binge.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

One of my like a couple of my friends, one who actually worked at Chapel, he went and binged. He was like, All right, I'm gonna drain my bank account, strippers, cocaine, and he did. And then he went back to like Zen perfect sponsor again and stuff, and he's like, Man, the drugs were different this time around. And then he died in COVID and stuff, because it was just like the feeling of having to be perfect in AA, in my opinion, I think. And then his sponsor being like one of those hard asses, and then he went back out and died, like it got a bad bag.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

I know a couple guys like that. Guys who I know one guy who had like five years sober, he run a SP rehap. And he went out, kind of struggled, struggled to come back for two years, and then died with the idol in the another guy who read a big like uh company, it was like uh Solar Company. He had like my I'm sorry, a five year slane, went out, come back for three years, then we went like this is crazy. Y'all y'all are overdoing it because you're telling yourself the story that he always overdo it, is that's who we are, but it's like it's kind of stuff a different story, you probably wouldn't be done right now.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah. You would still be a fucking live. My experience, especially when I the first time I try to get it sober was in LA was like if you go out, you will die. If you stay here, you'll get a business deal, but if you go out, you will die, so you need us.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

And um They love pronouncing Solandas. I've had one I report uh one time I showed up at the ladies, because I was beat back up with the different lady I met up prior to mention. Uh and they were like, How long do you have sober? And I was like, Oh, I don't know, like, you know, I'm not really sober. And they were like, Oh, okay, well, you're gonna die. And I was really curious.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

I don't even know you, man. I don't even fucking know you, dude. Yeah, no, that's just kind of the and so I just felt like I had to go and I had to serve. And I do think there's like a I what do you think about like you know how they say people pleasing is a character defect? Did you feel like that was something you had to do in order to get the sponsor off your back, or were you able to just not care as much?

SPEAKER_01 30:16

I mean, that idea of people pleasing. Here's the thing. Well the steps is that can basically you come in and you're told it's this disease. And if it's a disease, then it is not your fault. It is your perceptor. Uh, and you're told it is comparable to cancer and diametes, and you're like, oh, okay. If it's a disease and it's all my fault, I'm kinda I'm in. Then they slow walk you towards Christianity. So I admitted you're powerless. Okay, I don't know what the fuck that means, whatever. But by the time you get to step six and seven, it's about defects in your character.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Like the not e like the core, the pre-core who you are. And you've gotta fucking fix it or you're gonna die, bro. Like it's like so far away from the idea that I have a disease or anything.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

It's and now it's 100% my fault by step saying. So if I'm still in and I keep buying into the premise, even though it's kind of like switching responsibility around, then uh I guess I can do the rest of the six steps. And I've had people tell me, you know, Theo, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, bro. Stop looking for like food of flame. And I'm like, no, dude, it matters a great deal, especially in the context of making an amends, because what am I gonna say? I hella, I both am sorry and am not sorry, because I both am and am not responsible. Like it matters whose fault this is, whatever this situation is. So yeah, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

It's just a base.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Yeah. Um it's like you said, being slow walked into Christianity and then kind of being coerced into, I don't know, like it's always like, what's the word? I think like now that I know you are familiar with the Bay Area, it's funny because a lot of feedback I get is like, well, you're probably talking about these small towns in Florida that are like this. I'm like, no, San Francisco is very much like pushing you. It's like there's you know, saying you can believe in a doorknob and all of a sudden they're like slow walking you into Christianity and stuff. So it's not just a insular thing, it's a very all across the world thing with 12 steps because that's how it was designed. So I don't know, it made me think of that. Um Did you take every suggestion you were given by uh sponsors or like members, like 90 and 90, the prayer meditation, uh um no dating for the first year. What are us uh what other shit do they say to us? Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

If you have one in mind on the I would I would tell people that I had taken every suggestion other than the dating one, and that's why I started day 30, like immediately after I got out of rehab. Was like just out of rehab too. Um but we both stayed sober during that time. It uh I was like, I since I took every other suggestion I could ignore that. Like that was my period of a year and a half when I was like back at 27 years old, where I really was striving to take every suggestion, and I really thought my life depended on this, and I gotta just do it.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

So and also with the like first year's uh dating rule, um I've mostly seen positives out of people who dated the first year. Sometimes it doesn't work and sometimes it does. And I think also people are in toxic relationships regardless of addiction. So did you the program affect your mental health or your or your like how you process or think about things?

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Or yes. I mean, I think when I was 17 I had a really good effect because basically apologizing had never occurred to me in any situation ever. Like it just wasn't in my I didn't see my parents apologize to anybody, so I didn't apologize to anybody. Uh so basically the idea that I should try and apologize to people and make things right a new one and it really helped me. Uh but the experience I had at 20, it's like I don't know, I said when I had this whole basically spiritual experience because I just never thought about apologizing or meditating. When I returned to it at 20, I was expecting to have the same type of spiritual experience. And I really did because I'd already had it. So I kind of like got really into it, just I don't know, hoping for the best. Um But I I I failed to actually have any I don't know. I just didn't quite know. I've always believed in God. I'm not an atheist or an agnostic. I just don't believe in this interventionist type of like idea of what God is. Yeah. So anyway, it deeply affected the way I think about things because it helped me like figure out like how to think about things in terms of like uh who should take accountability for what, who's responsible for what. But uh I don't know, it it also did some really weird things. I think the idea that you have taking on the idea that you have a disease, I think is like uh a weird idea. A really weird idea. Yeah. It's probably not a good thought to think. So sometimes I wonder if that has contributed to periods of me being depressed.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Well, yeah, I think when you say you're you're told you you have this disease and you always have to work on it for the rest of your life, that makes you fur feel that it made me feel at least like permanently broken. And it it made me realize I'm not really as fucked up as I thought when I kind of stepped away. Um working. I'm not perfect. I make a lot of mistakes, but like it's not we're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Like Exactly. We're not as fucked as we're seeing. When we're when we're deep in that ideology, the scariest thought in the world is that what if we're normal and not special? You know.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Which ironically they call like the non-alcoholic people uh normies. So they so badly want to be special.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

I know. They're if I come to AA and I drop some hot takes, they're like, oh, you're subterminally unique. And I'm like, dude, your idea that you're an alcoholic is your terminal uniqueness. Like you're actually just you're an all-meat, bro. You're normal. You just had this behavior, right? They are, they're basic. Exactly. So, I mean what what really helps you a lot is like this is just a choice.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Obviously, it's a choice, and it's a behavior.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

It's not a you don't need to pathologize it. Like, that's what it is. It's more comparable to OCD than it is to cancer, you know, because it's just a behavioral thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

I mean, and that's why there p are so many people with OCD and meetings. Okay, so like what made you be like, all right, dudes, I need space from 12 step. Like, you can provide as many stories as you want, but what were the the stepping stones for you to be like, okay, I'm going, I can't with y'all.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

And what first my buddy left. I mean he then he and made it clear he didn't want to hang out with me if I was gonna try and twelve step him. Uh and I convinced him yeah, I convinced him of my genuine like skepticism for A in the first place. So he sent me this book, the Freedom Model. We had a little crew of people who had read that book and kind of like thought about it. Uh I was one of the few who finished it. But I would say reading that book gave me like a six to eight months period where I just had an axe to grind, and I was upset that I had been so deeply involved in AA in my life because I don't know. That book uh took my very first reactions to AA, which is like all is this real good, and just expressed them in like really simple scientific reasoning. And I that was a great book. So it was really reading that book that made me realize I gotta get out of here. Um and since then I still go to the A. Like I just don't expect anything of it.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

I just don't think it works probably in every study that's been got, but uh like I guess they still want to leave a big book I did where it says like, oh, about half a three-full gets over. Mother Quarker, you are wrong. No.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Absolutely not, these statistics. But no, I've no big. Oh, it is a nice feeling being in meetings and like there's a f I don't know, something about the airs of these people di that are genuinely trying to help themselves and it feels nice.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

That's positive for sure.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Yeah, so that's I understand the return and it is really moving. I think it's moving.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Yeah, it really can be. It's people really opening up and speaking from the heart, like most of the time. And that's yeah, inherited.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Yeah, why do you think people are like uh hesitant to even speak up at all about how 12 meeting 12-step meetings can be abusive and there are a lot of flaws within these meetings?

SPEAKER_01 39:08

I know a guy with an active frickin' all station case, and we all know him. We've known him for years.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

It's not Tyson still speaking of meetings, like nothing happened. He referred to it as a family drama. Family drama? Family drama.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

That's insane. One of my buddies, his old sponsor, years oh, uh, got arrested for CT on his computer and uploading it to the dark web. There's a false wat raid. Then it turned out he was lost and his daughter, he's gonna be in jail for life. So it's like, there's these guys that you are introduced to as respective figures. It's like so the Favre. And uh then you find out what they've really been out here. It's just like the Catholic Church or something like that, I guess. But Yeah. Also, it's funny. Ten years ago in the Bay Area, one of our like 16-year-old female friends, I guess, uh, was sleeping with a 40-year-old male guy that we knew. And my brother, 10 years later, was like, No, what's going on? And I was like, nah. And he was like, dude, I wish we had said something. Like, I knew that was going on. Like, man, I wish like next, you know, if I could go back in time, I would fucking say something about that because that was weird. Yeah. Um there's all kinds of shit like that because it's just a weird ass situation you find yourself in with all these randos and um people like getting up to hijase. So I I I think there is a culture of basically, I don't know, I kind of would say covering up the abuse like the Catholic Church a little bit, you know, like people don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Yeah, I think it really is like if Scientology and Catholicism made a new fresh group, it's Alcoholics Anonymous in 12-step meetings because there are so many cover-ups, and then if these abusers who also can be women but mostly are men, uh are doing things like that, they're gonna do it inside AA rooms and do it to newcomers. And yet these other members do protect them because they are reputable in these meetings, so it's kind of like how does this even how do you stop that?

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Guy was like a sober lino and like everybody knows he like raped a couple girls. Like that's all like everybody knows it. And he also had done a bunch of big spitish whip on like hater sex or all this BS. So he's still around, I see him. He's shaking hands, laughing, having a good time with these meanings, and it's like this is just this is wild. There it's not it's not their best. I'm like, dude, I I know the worst about you, and also I believed it. Like I I can just tell in my heart that it's true. And here you are. What a Mr.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Congeniality, MVP. Yeah, no, that's a huge theme.

SPEAKER_04 42:03

There's a couple places crosses the line, like so.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Like, for example, in Scientology, if you uh go up the bridge, it's total freedom and you go clear, yet you still have anxiety in your life or depression in your life or panic. You're told, okay, well, here's the thing, you gotta you gotta do go do the steps, you gotta do the version of total freedom again. Because the teachings are perfect, but you did it wrong, or you didn't do it hard enough. So go do it again harder. And then you tell the exact same thing to people for whom the steps don't do much. Like basically, if you were to do the steps and things like, yeah, like basically that didn't solve sh you'd be told, well, the steps are perfect, but you did them wrong, so go do them again and harder. So ever everybody knows that's like some serious cult when it's done in Scientology. So we just have to apply the same thing to AA. Like if it didn't work, it's not necessarily your fault. It could easily be the fault at the steps. So that's one place AA crosses the line from self-help org into cult. Another place it crosses the line is uh just with the naming, just with the idea that I'm the alcoholic. Like I'm not- I just hang a big ol' albatross over my fucking neck that's this big old word alcoholic. Like, that's a fucking heavy thing to say, uh. And it tries to get you at that really far level of like your mace. Ain't you as this thing. And then it has even Scientology has a word called AUGS for outsiders, and AA calls them normies. Like, even they get a label, and now they're just a little Wait, what did they call them in Scientology? AUGS, W-O-G-S. Yeah. That's just Nick Lapels people in this way. And uh that's just a major that's a major cult thing. And it also makes it hard to leave. It's like it took me so long to understand like to move away from addiction as a disease model and understand like Think a whole other way of making sense of this. Like, this is just one metaphor, basically.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Yeah. Uh and also you were talking about the big book and having to start over the steps. The other one that really drove me nuts is like I would be in it with a sponsor and be like, oh, I realize the sponsor's nuts. I need to get a new one. I get a new one. They're like, oh, we have to start the steps all over again. You have to buy a brand new book.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Oh my fudging God, baby. And and is the what that is, oh my god, I feel you on a soul level. Uh and also I would say the other place they cross to cult territory is the refusal to update that. Okay, can have the doctor's opinion, which really was kind of written by Bill and just like signed off on by the doctor. But he's to talk about it's some physical allergy shit. We need the 2026 doctor's opinion, saying, okay, we know it's not a physical allergy, however, it could have a neuroclinical like it might be a brain disorder. Their refusal to update the book, it's like the night it's like some 1936 smurf day, but it's just like a sales pamphlet.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

No, honestly, like the doctor's opinion, I was like, did he write that with a gun to his head? Because it's like, yeah, I guess uh yeah, there's no solution. So the solution is God. And then he wrote a second one because AA got even bigger. So then they was like, actually, yes, it's definitely it. This is it. This is the solution. Everyone, I can scientifically confirm medically that it is the solution and stuff. I'm like, what is going on?

SPEAKER_01 45:26

It's so crazy. You just got some stooge to sign a piece of paper, like, like it. And the other craziest thing about AA, this is not a place AA crosses into a cult territory, but so like when you read writing the big book, like I learned basically Bill Wrote the whole big book. And yes, other people had the input and stuff, but this it was basic that said this authorship. Uh and Bill died of emphysema, dude. Bill died of smoking, he died of addiction. Oh so the person we're mucking to for the answer to pure addiction died for addiction.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Like, this is what? This is not and he asked for then he asked for whiskey on his deathbed or something, which is not he didn't have it, they didn't give it to him, but uh yes, and I've heard people decide I didn't realize that it's cutting back from a powerful whiskey. You're like, no, the man what I I mean he was in so much pain. Like, I kind of get a hunger deathbed. He's like, give me something. Do you guys have heroin? Uh yeah, I didn't actually know he died of empty uh emphysema. That's fucking rough, but I guess that was like half of the people who died back then that way. Okay, so current members who are very bullheaded if there's any criticism to the big book and to Bill W or to the meanings. Why do you think they do that actually?

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Spy Malt Emperors. I think ironically a lot of them actually don't know that much about the thing, like the big book or whatever. Uh I think like it's such a good question. I I think people have like deep needs for comfort, and sometimes that comfort comes from the weirdest places, sometimes it comes from truly believing that you are fully spiritually in sync with this 1932 Salami.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

I don't know. I it's it's uh people say the program is the book. This book to me it's dramatic.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

The program is the book and it's very outdated. It's almost a hundred years old.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

I know. I'm just reading some like story of some dude a hundred years ago trying to make sense of how he drank a lot of whiskey. Like he made sense of it in a wacky way, dude. Let's make sense of a different way.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Well, it was something of the dawn. Uh I don't know, even like the first like the gravestone that he saw in the first Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Uh a good was never forgot.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Yeah. And I'm like, do you really re is that you remember verbatim what the gravestone said when you were hot war in England? Okay, I have to put this in here. In Bill's story in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill W. describes the gravestone of a Hampshire Grenadier in the cemetery of Winchester Cathedral in England. The tombstone was that of Thomas Thatcher, a soldier who died in 1764. The inscription that caught Bill's attention read, Here lies Hampshire Grenadier who caught his death drinking cold small beer. A good soldier is ne'er forgot, whether he deeth by musket or bipot. Prolific.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

It's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

And he's like, it was pretty prolific, though. I'm so glad Lois didn't have kids with him, and it would have been so hard for her.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

Poor woman. Uh what has your experience been at uh smart or I don't actually know the rules with smart recovery, but what is your experience like and what are the takeaways you have from smart recovery?

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Well, I like smart recovery for a lot of reasons. I think one reason is it doesn't take a stance on whether or not addiction is a disease. That alone, I'm like, okay, dude, like you're fucking this is straightforward fan. Because obviously, who knows? And it's very honest of y'all to say that. To me, the helpful part of AA is just people going around and talking about their day. And smart recovery is like old bats, like no other parts, no ideology in that. To me is tremendously helpful. There's like this of all like AA or Smart or whatever, all those groups, there's this element of like, I'm okay, you're okay. Like, I'll just say hi to 20 people for a second. I'm okay, how are you? I'm okay. Oh, okay, well that's okay, later. And that weirdly feel good, you know. So Smart has that too. And uh I guess I feel that I had to learn more about people at Smart because they talk about themselves more and less about this one way of making sense about themselves about oh, I have to do an inventory because I had a resentment. Well, rub da da da da. Um basically smart recovery's idea is that it is a just a behavior.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

Talked about and treated like more.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Another thing AA is really cracked is the lifestyle element where it just happens frequently enough where you can go to it whenever and see someone you know. Smart, I think, is just less popular, and that's why it has less meetings. There's also no sponsorship or mentorship in Smart. Like AA is just this big old headcanon to like apply and like when people talk in AA, they talk like mostly about the headcanon that they've had. Whereas in Smart, people just talk about the behavior.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Yeah. Interesting. I'm gonna I do have to go to a SMART meeting. Um have you explored other resources besides AA and smart recovery? Or it's not like you read, I can tell that you read and you've looked up comparison notes, I think, with just learning about cults. So, but also on top of that, like resources besides those.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

That's true. I I love reading stuff. Uh I've gone to the Herma Recovery meetings, I love joy them a lot. Oh, right. I don't know, I've been going to church recently with my leg wipe and kids. So what happened in my life is I've gotten a family. There's this one doctor, Stanton Peel, I believe. I saw this one YouTube video of him talking about basically like turning 30. Just that, you know, give or take a few years. And the reason for that is just because people become become pets. And so like it just resolves. So, like in the last you know, three years, I married a woman for has a nine-year-old daughter already, and then uh we had a baby who's now nine months old. So there's something about that. Congratulations. Thank you. And and there's something about that that's just like very recovery-oriented or something like that. Like, I think that's the biggest like step I've done towards recovery, because it just I don't know, it's it shifts just well.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Your responsibility is so different, and how you wake up in the morning and think is so different. And attending church is a different experience than going to AA. I mean, there are so many people who just go through so get sober through the church, and that's a different education as well. And it's being a God that they choose, which also gives them freedom. And I also have written to Stan Peel once. I tried to get a quote from him because I was trying to write an article. And he schooled me because I said, I am in recovery, but I don't like AA anymore. And he's like, You're not in recovery. That means you always have a lifelong disease, and that's not true. You are recovered. It's something under the lines of that. It was he was so quick, and it was just like two lines. I'm like, oh my god, I still have that thinking, but it was so funny. He was just like, No. And then he's like, Here's my quote.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

And he's true. Um at the same time, though, those since those words are b like this understanding, you just have to use the board says you probably figure why.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

Yeah, you sometimes you're just trying to get your point across, and you're like, uh, whatever is gonna like be received to this person, I'm gonna say it this way. Anything about AA that you want us else to know are 12-step meetings?

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Well no, I would just tell like AA people like, hey bro, um like it's not a disease, it is a choice. Yeah, forgive yourself for everything you've done so far and just different path going forward. Uh just let this up, Rodo. I think you have this like lifelong like terrible thing, because that's just like nothing towards so just like don't take on stuff like that. And no, you can't change. And like it's that simple. And all they are is just people who one day said, you know what, I'm gonna decide to say like you have to decide whether or not you believe it was God make you decide. Like you're gonna have to decide. Don't take on this self-heating way.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Yeah, you're not cursed. Yeah, you're not cursed.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Exactly. It's worth it it the social situation where like pain is currency, and you start telling people, oh, it's happened to me and it sucked as uh And it's like if your life is like going well and you have no painful step to share, like you're not really in the code that, Derek. It's a wild social experiment. I do believe in nonsense thing shit like that in certain like medical contexts, but I just fake words time have no real weight, but when you say it talked 50 times, all of a sudden it it assumes some weight.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Yeah, and it is like your whole identity after a while, or it was my whole identity after a while. What are you grateful about? Um I mean it sounds like you already covered it, but well what are you grateful for?

SPEAKER_01 55:00

That's my be uh my beautiful wife and our hustle kids. It's super I have a car that works well, not like flashy car, but it works really well, and I'm grateful, but I I love a good car. Yeah. And I live in a boot place that's like two hours from LA, two hours from being a thick bear, and it's hot right now, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

What do you want listeners to know? Non-addicts and addicts, and people who are not familiar with Alcoholics Anonymous and people who are.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

But see, if you're gonna do AA, you gotta wear AA like a loose fitting garment. How this takes. AA works the best, but people to do it the least. All the old shimers and shit, they're not doing any fuck insertories. They're not making any fucking amends. They're just talking a big ass game and not doing shit. So, like, just as long as you know AA, like, for sure does not work. Then you can hang out, go like organized A as you want. Just speak so you put expectations on it. Couldn't like bathing it. This is gonna that's when it fails because it actually is just a fra like social placebo.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

Yeah, that's a really good one. Social placebo. I'm writing that down.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Like a placebo you give to everyone around you. You know what I mean? So they all think you're doing something, even though you're not doing shit, but everybody thinks, oh, that really worked on.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

Yeah, they know exactly the people you're talking about. Uh well, it's been really fun talking to you and um holy shit. Thank you for you. My pleasure. For show notes, go to patreon.com slash cw slash in recovery. That's patreon.com slash cw slash in recovery. Have a question or story you want addressed on the podcast, send it to recovery froma pod at pm.me. Again, recovery froma pod at pm.me. And I may read and respond to it in an upcoming episode. Thanks for listening.