13 Stepping & Sobriety Spectrum: An Autopsy with Guest Heather!

Heather, a mental health counselor and former AA member, joins the podcast to provide her lived experience in 12 Step meetings. She goes over the very unwelcome, unsolicited advice from sponsors, dealing with 13-steppers, and how she slowly exited the program. Spoiler: The Orange Papers came into Heather's world, and it got her thinking. We also discuss the spectrum of substance abuse disorder; how some members need to abstain for a temporary period of time, while others require long-term abstinence. Trigger warning: we also discuss abusers and how meetings enable their behaviors instead of reprimanding them. Heather also shares her lifelong struggle with an eating disorder, which she healed from, along with trauma, after seeking treatment post-AA. Heather is introspective, wise, and provides educated insights on this topic. You won't want to miss it.  Show notes available at https://www.patreon.com/cw/inrecovery Got a question or story you want to share? Email the pod at recoveryfromAApod@proton.me and I might read it out loud on an upcoming episode–don't be a dick. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello, my name is Mary, and we are on another episode of In Recovery from Alcoholics Anonymous, where Crosstalk is welcome. And I have a very special guest today, Heather. She is a mental health counselor and has experienced strength and fierce truth to share. So I'm really excited to um thank you for joining. Did you decide you needed recovery or were you pushed into it?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I think it was Kose. This was many years ago, like 2008. Oh yeah. I had made some I was in college. I was at the former teen in Single Mom at the time. Um and I had made a couple of friends who were sober. So I had familiarity with 12 steps. So I had brought up to my therapist at the time, oh, it was like sometimes I smoke weed and it feels like it's problematic. And I was drinking at the time too, but I never thought that was problematic. I wasn't even drinking that much. I mean, I was a single parent, I couldn't go out. I wasn't really drinking at home. But she had pushed, like, oh, you should try AA and you could just apply to the marijuana, and then maybe you'll stop drinking, and like and I was like, Oh. Yeah, so I had thought about it a little bit more and then I had talked to a friend who actually ended up I ended up dating him at one point for a bit. He was sober and he was in the 12-step world. And his dad was, however, his dad was often called a dry drunk because his dad was sober but didn't go to AA. So there's a lot of shhame with that. Yeah. And then his mom had gone to Al Anon. So I was like, maybe I'll try it. And so I did, and I kind of stuck to it for a few years, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Quite some time, yeah. Um dry drunk, it's so funny because basically they're saying they're dry drunk because they don't seek the AA version of God. Yeah. That's really sad because to make yourself sober is a huge achievement. Well, any self-improvement, and maybe that's too much of a buzzword now, but uh anything that's helping your the quality of life, that should be applauded as long as you don't kill out someone on the way. It's a pretty good achievement.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

I definitely agree. And just because that person wasn't going to it doesn't mean that he wasn't making his life better for himself for others, etc. Yeah. Yeah, I heard that word a lot.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Yeah, no, I still hear that around. Um it definitely has root spread outside of AA rooms. So you had, as they say, substantial sobriety and Alcoholics Anonymous. And so were you aware of any other recovery resources, such as the Sinclair method, rehab obviously, recovery dramas, harm reduction, trauma therapy or smart recovery? Or there's more, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah, I mean, I knew of rehab, obviously, just because it's, you know, like either I was in grad school for therapy at the time, so I had heard of rehab, obviously. I'd heard of smart recovery, but I just had heard maybe a person mention it, but no exploration of what it was or anything like that. And then obviously I'd heard of AA. Now I know more of the options, but back then I didn't know any relief.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Do you know actually, so you were saying how your therapist recommended AA? Do you know if therapists are more aware of the harms that are going on at Alcoholics Anonymous, specifically for women or trans people and LGBTQ? Like, I remember having a therapist tell me to go to AA, but I also had a therapist who helped me get out of AA. So I'm just curious what's going on there nowadays.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

That's a good question. Because I don't like work in the substance of these worlds. I don't honestly know that much, but I have some friends who do or colleagues, and I do see more of an open and a shift toward other programs than there was when I was in grad school, for example. But I still see kind of the old school, like I've done like collaborative work on a client with a substance abuse counselor or something, and they would often sell 12-step kind of like mentality. So it's definitely still there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

It's okay. Yeah, that's if anything, I mean, you know, I'm not trying to make money on this podcast. I don't want my face out there. I just want even like a needle of improvement to make people realize there's other options or like they don't have to be stuck in something that doesn't work for them. So that would be really lovely, especially because we are, you know, we really trust therapists and mental health experts. So yeah. I also okay, and then I'm reading this book called Why Does He Do That? And it's about abusers, and it's okay, yeah. Uh I've heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

I think I might have read it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

It's kind of stu immediately brought me into thinking about 12-step meetings, and they go on a chapter about how not all abusers are addicts, but many abusers or many addicts are abusers, and they don't recommend them going to 12-step meetings. Do you think that it is a safe place for abusers to continue their abusive behaviors? Or is that too um subjective?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

If an abuser is being sober, are you asking it's kind of being enabled for them to like be in those spaces? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Is it an enabling environment for abusers to be in instead of become improving their behaviors and actions? Does it reinforce their behaviors and actions?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

I mean, honestly, I would say probably in a lot of ways it does. Probably because there's like no, there's nothing in the 12 steps that talk about analyzing your own behavior as far as like youth goes, really, or yeah, your own privilege within the world. And there's this attitude like, well, if you're sober, you're good. And it's like, well, now there's a lot more to like mental health and being a better person. Um and there's also I've been in abusive relationships. I've had friends who were in a who and AA is, I don't know, like screening people before they go. And obviously that's not what they do in general, but yeah, there's no accountability as far as that goes.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Yeah. It's funny because at first I was like, maybe they can just because AA is not going anywhere. It's like trying to remove the Catholic Church. But I'm like, maybe they could have like predator only meetings. I'm like, wait, what predator is gonna be like I'm going to the predator meeting? That's not how it works.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

So I mean they have men's meanings, but those men's meanings are reinforcing their abusive behavior. So LM, it's a beast king. Did you relapse at all during your time when you were an active member?

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Yeah, I actually didn't. Um I was sober for six years technically, and I went to AA for like two and a half-ish years. And during that time I I was completely sober.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Um did they uh talk about the relapse stigma? Like, did they stigmatize relapse and did you feel any fear in that?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Definitely, definitely. Yeah, if I look back, I think that was a huge reason why I was sober because I was so scared of judgment and fear. Or even my ex who was an A, he had been considering maybe trying psychedelics or something for his mental health and seeing how that goes. And then had this giant fear from Bob because I was like, oh my god, the eddy's gonna be round and he's gonna like spiral up. So it was like there's it was so rigid. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah, some people are way intolerant of any substances, of course. But there's a huge spectrum, and there's enough scientific research to prove that that is psilocybin or mushrooms that actually can stop cyclical thinking and obsessions. And that's kind of that's a nightmare for our AA because they're like, well, but where's the God aspect? Where's the yeah, where's the ac complete abstinence and stuff and the rigidity? And then of course the irony is a people have been developing OCD outside because of 12 steps, and so things like psilocybin are very helpful for them. So it can trap people in a really bad cycle.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, definitely. And I have a friend I haven't talked to in a long time, but like he's struggled with his own substance abuse, and he's thought of trying other drugs to help him kind of break the cycle of the alcohol, and he still has this guilt coming in that he's AA that he shouldn't do that, and it's like oh it's so frustrating and sad.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah, this one person I do deem her kind of like a miracle because I I assume she would never get sober, she just didn't have she was really uh on edge, and uh miraculously she did. And I'm not crediting it to AA, I'm just saying in general a miracle, not even a religious meaning. Literally. But recently she said to me she's been getting, she's been um passing out some kind of thing, health thing going on in vertigo.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

They wanted to give her a medication, but she wouldn't take it because of the AA qua. But what if you're driving? So I'm very worried about oh yeah, and she was like, Well, it makes you sleepy and it makes you go to bed. I'm like, take it. Sleep is a really good part of sobriety. Getting eight hours to ten hours is really the best way to keep that keep that sobriety going.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and I've I've known people, I've even had that kind of like anti-medicine, and I have like chronic illnesses. I'm glad I'm not in the AA world. Because I probably would have felt like similar.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Yeah, or you would just be taking it and feeling this extreme shame that's not necessary because your body needs it's kind of like being diabetic and you need your insulin. So um that makes me so sad. That's part that make breaks my heart the most for people who are very dedicated to meetings. Um you mentioned an eating disorder in your history. Um did you have it before, prior to going to AA, or did it develop when you were sober?

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Actually, it developed when I was a kid. I have uh I had it off and on for many, many years. So it developed before I was sober. Yeah. And it would come and go, like I'd have moments or time where I was totally chill with it, and then I would be full-born in it.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

It can be ebbs and flows. When did you get treatment for or help yourself with eating disorder and trauma?

SPEAKER_01 11:29

It's pretty interesting. So I was in AA for like two and a half years about. And then at some point as I was leaving AA actually, I was like, I think my more deeper issue is my eating just because I had it for so so long. Yeah. And the alcoholism, and I'm putting that in quotes because I wasn't technically diagnosed with anything like that. Um that was just surfacey shit that was happening. Um so after I left, again, it was like right when I was leaving AA, I was like, I'm gonna go to treatment, and there's like a treatment center like an hour from where I lived, and that was when I went.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Okay. Yeah. Um, that's actually what my mom always says to me, that it's like you have these other problems, but really your real addiction is eating disorder. Like everything else came because of the eating disorder.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Yeah, it's like the core, core thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Yeah, and it is the one that sticks around the longest because it's just living in your brain. And also, uh, if if you're not sorting that out, the other issues are never really fully gonna go away. But it is the hardest one. It's subjective, but I think it is the hardest one to recover from.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah, definitely. Because and I think part of that is so normalized, like disordered eating in general is so normalized in our culture.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yeah, and it's glamorized, especially right now with the GLP one. Which GLP1s help a lot of things, but not people with eating disorders. I actually I'm not anti-GLP one, just for people eating disorder.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yeah, I've seen cool stuff of it too, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yeah, I mean so many things. So I'm hoping they do more research on it to treat things that are helpful. So yeah. Um, and also when some person is an eating disorder treatment center, it's so much harder than going to a rehab. It's a very rigid and it has to be rigid uh focus on how much they're eating. You're not going to the bathroom. Yourself, you are being followed because they have to babysit your very twisted brain that plays tricks and basically wants to kill you.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah, definitely. And I do that work now as a therapist in private, and yeah, it's very similar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah, you're just always detecting what their secret back brain is thinking, and you're like have to watch it like a hawk. You guys are doing the Lord's work because they get so angry. The eating disorder is like a pouting child. It's rough. It's really rough. You're doing the Lord's work. Seriously. So you got into this after healing from eating disorder then? Oh, so you gave back. That's so nice. Did you have any good takeaways from 12th step and AA?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah, I mean, I thought of that before too. I think it was nice in some ways to meet other people around my age who because I was in my twenties when I went to AA, so it was nice to meet other people who weren't drinking. Um because it was it's pretty isolating when you're young and don't drink. Um so that part was helpful. And I've heard that from other people, just a camaraderie that you might come across in different support groups in general. I think that probably was probably the bigger takeaways.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Yeah. Those are the that's kind of what makes people stick around for a while too. It's the good things that make people keep going back. And that's what confuses people outside of AA is that why would you keep doing this? And it's because they do add little breadcrumbs of nice things.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah, and and if you're like in a really shitty situation, you don't have health insurance or something, what are you gonna do? And you've only heard of AA.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Yeah, that is the saddest part. We're in the wild west. And I don't know, places like Sweden, they don't rely heavily on like 12 steps is kind of the last resort, you know, healthcare.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Right. Where people can get the care they need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yeah. Another heartbreaking reality.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yep. Did you go through the steps? I did. Actually, I did it twice.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Even more fun the second round. Yeah. You're like, just to double check that I don't feel good about this. Uh did you so you must you had a sponsor? Did you have more than one sponsor?

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Uh yeah, I had a sponsor for a bit, and she actually, the first one, we were talking on the phone day. This was like early in my AA days. She was like, You should get your daughter baptized. And I was like, What? Like, what? What does that have to do with my sobriety? And I'm like an atheist.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

I know. I yeah, like keep the k children out of a discussion always. Like parenting is not. Oh, that's so sad. Another reason why Sweden doesn't like AA. It's an atheist country. Oh, that makes me so sad to hear. I would consider it spiritual coercion. Um that's not okay. To say someone in their 20s too, because then you're still impressionable and vulnerable and trying to do the right thing, especially when you're a parent.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah. And thankfully, I was like pretty steadfast in my atheist. If I wasn't, I would have been like, oh yeah, maybe I should. Maybe I'm doing this all wrong, but I didn't. I was like, no, I don't think my kid is going to hell because it doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

So let's talk about it. We're not gonna dunk it in a water. Uh yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

She no after that I was like pretty like, I don't want to work this person, so I got somebody else after her that was my sponsor until I left.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Oh, okay. Yeah. But it's the those one-liners that it's like damage done, and then people say it's there's not all bad apples, but when it's supposed to be the women, the women's groups that are supposed to be safe, and then you get that, that's like, well, well, am I safe? Right. When did you start feeling critical of Alcoholics Anonymous?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Well, it was pretty interesting because my ex was the one who started like kind of questioning it a little bit more, and I think it was partly because like his parents were heavily involved in 12 steps, and he was like, They haven't been the best to me just because they've been in 12 steps. Me, this isn't working. It can be critical of this, and I don't have to go if I don't want to. Like it hadn't even really occurred. So after a couple years being in it, I just slowly started going to less meetings. Like I went to a campus meeting and then I went to a women's meeting, and sometimes I would do a third one. So I just slowly stopped going. Um and my ex at the time he had found I think they're called the Orange Papers or something like that. The orange papers.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Okay, I'm gonna cut in real quick about the orange papers. Uh the orange papers is a massive website by a guy who goes by orange or sometimes agent orange, a former AA member who spent years building a detailed, well-documented case against the program. He argues that AA functions like a cult. He runs it through the standard cult checklist, group think, discouraging people from questioning the steps and that sponsor-sponsee relationship, which he frames as a power dynamic that keeps people dependent rather than actually helping them recover. He also makes the case that AA is a fundamentalist religion in disguise, that surrender to a higher power language is deliberately vague, that functionally it is a conversion process that they coin a medical treatment. And then data-wise, he points to older research, especially the 1976 Rand report, arguing that AA's real long-term success rate is nowhere near what people assume. Closer to 5 to 10%, not the near great guaranteed recovery of the program reputation suggests. And he graces it all back to its roots. A actual framework comes straight from the Oxford group, an early 20th century Christian movement most people have never heard of. Um as I mentioned on the c on the podcast before. It's a deep source body of work, and it's one of the main places the AA is a cult argument comes from in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah, so we had been reading Tripos. Um and then I don't know, it was just kind of like opening both our eyes to like, oh, there are other options to like exist in the world. Yeah. Be sober with different tools and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Like you were for someone who was already going through other stuff and having to cope with not just trying to be sober, but the actual mental health side of things and PTSD. That's very um astute of you to figure out that young. Because most people don't. And it's great that your boyfriend at the time was also aware. I hope he's doing well and stuff too. But like it was Yeah. So I I I gotta applaud you on that because that just I never I remember one girl left to go smoke weed, and of course she was blacklisted. But now I bet she's doing great. But it was like early 20s, it's like, whoa. But I was also like, you can do that, you can just loudly leave. Yeah, I quietly phased out too, so I it's a little easier.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yeah, it was definitely easier, and I was so worried about like judgment and stuff because they were so judgy of people that left. Like, I remember someone talking about like, oh, my husband sent so and so a sympathy card after they left AA, and I was like, it's just so mean.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

It's so mean, but it also probably it's also perfect to reinforce why they would want to leave. They're like, they have evidence I've received. Uh, but also it's so funny because they're like non denominational, very Christian religious group that are saying to have a really good program, and yet they're so judgmental.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's like wild. And like there's one person in particular is pretty like in the AA world and the women's group and and she would have talked about constantly threats. There's so many threats in the big book and you're gonna die if you leave. And it's like that's a really extreme thing to be telling all of us when we're so vulnerable.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Yeah. And that's actually okay why it took me a very long time to stop. So when you were told that uh people are like well if it doesn't work for you you don't have to stay and that's why we're not a cult, but did you also receive these underlying messages that if you leave though you will die or you will relapse or we'll see you later.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yep, that was the constant messaging and that person was the one I did the 12 steps with twice because she would do these rotating 12 step like going through the steps and maybe I even did it more than twice because I did that group with her a couple times and then I did it with my sponsors now that I'm thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Yeah they can actually rope you in more than swing.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah and she would always point out like in the big book there's a threat there's a threat you're gonna die.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

There's a threat and that's a complete uh programming in my opinion. So did you when you were fading out did you feel confident or I think being able to be secure in your atheism can kind of make you feel confident in leaving but did you still have that m concern in your mind because they said it so much?

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Yeah I definitely did. I don't necessarily know if I thought I was going to die because like I saw people in A who were really really rough with their addiction and stuff and I hadn't hit these rock bottoms where I felt like that was going to ever happen to me. But I did definitely have that shame and guilt like what if I do start drinking again and what if things go out of control and all the shit happens. Yeah it still was there for a long time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Yeah I mean I understand and so you abstained for another five years or so right after you left. So and that's a long time and that was without any 12 steps which that's good proof that the 12 steps are not the only way obviously but you're a really good example of every once in a while I would hear about people who are in the program for some time and then they actually realize it was something else deep down they were struggling with. And but you know in meetings they try not to like they'll like be like nope we don't talk about that one. Um and but that's why I'm also very excited that you're here because that is that is more true than people like to admit. It's true that a lot of people need to be sober for a little bit of time to get through the other stuff. And then it doesn't have to be a lifelong sentence.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Yeah definitely I agree and yeah that's not talked about when you first start exploring sobriety in general it's the thing that you have to do this for the rest of life.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Yeah and you can never you can't even imagine it but it's I've the more I've been out of 12 step and stuff the more I see yeah that's actually the it's a spectrum. People go through things and then they can um introduce things back into their life and have a functional pleasant quality life.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah definitely and even if you take eating disorder treatment like yeah people with eating disorders have horrible relationships with food but we have to eat so it's like when you just learn how to have like a better relationship with food. It doesn't mean that you have to like do that same dynamic with alcohol but maybe thinking about it like that can uh rigidity reduce a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

Yeah and exactly and especially with eating disorder there's so much impulsivity and control and that can spill out into alcohol or drugs especially if you're trying to like Adderall obviously is like a really good example of why eating disorder like how people get addicted to uh Adderall is because of eating disorder their eating disorder or cocaine. And um once that eating disorder goes away they're not gonna touch it. Yeah. And also with bulimia there's like that impulsivity and that binging and they use alcohol to kind of calm it down. Yeah. But once it goes away once they recover from that that impulsivity.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

So it is just a long-winded way to say it's a spectrum um do you think uh AA is a religious group yeah I've thought of that before too I mean I would definitely say it is even though they say they they aren't I mean God has written all over it and I remember like I was doing some sort of group on campus that was using the 12 steps of the guide and some of the other people in the group were like I don't believe in God and they're like well you just ignore that piece and like use a tree as God or something like that. Um not really answering the question and I mean if you look at the history of it when it was created it's true Oxford groove. Yeah it's an evangelist movement.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Yeah and it's 12 steps it's like capitalized him as we understood him God everything God uh came to yeah and um yeah it's it's hard not to be just complete it's very blatantly Christian so yeah there's no straight answer to it it's just like a big like walk around yeah and we're like are we talking about completely a completely different thing now? What are we talking about now? We got there and anyway and so how was life after Alcoholics Anonymous?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

It was definitely weird for a bit in terms of me being worried I would run into somebody or something like that or I'd get some weird sympathy cards in the mail or weird texts or something like that. So I was a little on edge because of that for a bit. But I think that dissipated with time. And I was able to just focus on my eating disorder recovery and like figuring my life out in other ways too. I was in the Midwest and I moved to the East Coast and was able to just like do things in my life that I wanted to do. Yeah I mean I had guilt for a bit about not going but I think that's kind of again just teetered out the longer that I was alive on it.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Yeah and I think removing trauma like not removing but rec like working on your trauma and you have these trauma responses that are probably super active in AA meetings. Once you're not like having a physical reaction that probably like teetered out. Um also AA meetings in the Midwest they are a different they're a different approach. And yeah I'm in a more woke city and they still have the same ideologies but in uh Midwest you're like oh I can't talk to you about any outside issues that's funny because I've only been to meetings in the I was in North Dakota that's the only state I've been to them so that's so interesting. That's gotta be even rougher yeah that is I don't even know and probably like half of them of that state are in meetings they haven't really glad I don't live there anymore. I'm happy for you that is a an escape that means you're Norwegian descent which means like so many people are alcoholics there.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Yep did you ever go to did you experience 13 stepping you must have sorry I mentioned like assume but North Dakota Yeah definitely and I was thinking when I I've thought of this before too because my ex was an AA when we started dating like he was worried that he was 13 stepping toward me and I was like I don't think you are but definitely just that I think that was one reason why I stick to mostly the women's group because that wasn't happening like this.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

And then I did go to a campus group and there's mostly just professors there and I actually didn't get a weird vibe from any of them so that was really nice. But when I would go to the AA events that's when the 13 stepping step would happen more and I even remember this one time my friend who I actually still talked to every once in a while but um we were gonna speak at some spring event or something and like this dude came up to us who's way older and he was like drooling and like my friend was like in a pretty dress and she looked really cute and he just was tearing at her and it was so gross. And then we're like oh we have to sit in front of everyone she was wearing a dress and there's a cable with no tablecloth so we were just like really and that was a common experience.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

You were being ogled and then yeah I always kind of imagine that I can feel their breath on my eyes the that's kind of how I imagine because they're so greasy and so intrusive and yeah like there's no consent. I don't know if the they say things in North Dakota like I love you but they'll offer that really fast and stuff. Yeah. Did you have was Ike Paw and like that kind of like what are they the AA dance? Was that culture in North Dakota?

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Yeah yep that was definitely a thing um I didn't go to those very often just because I didn't have childcare or whatever and I oh yeah want to bring her to them because she was like a kid. I think I went to one and I am also pretty socially awkward so I just like sat there and I didn't engage with anybody and and it's not really my I have any way to do stuff like that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

Yeah I'll admit I never went so when I was shocked when people voluntarily went um I guess that's because they seek community I was like but there's so many other things to do.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yes. Yeah. You can be a lean yeah exactly and finding people you actually have interests with beyond just sobriety which I think is very important.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Oh I think uh having non oh they call them normies obviously but it's just non-alcoholic friends is really good for recovery or mental health I've learned that is the thing that really can bring me down is just being around a lot of AA people. Yeah definitely um it's funny uh an AA member said to me that social anxiety is uh self-centeredness and I was like oh that's interesting how did you even spin that and he's like well I was making it about me and I was like okay so actually that means you don't understand that people are making the socially anxious or socially awkward person uncomfortable and they're trying to figure out the tools to respond or protect themselves that's and that's so funny you bring that up because I remember hearing that similar kind of vibe about it and that's such a weird way of thinking about it. Um it kind of shitty it's discouraging because again people who really struggle it just it m makes them even more trapped or there's more self-loathing or more self-hating and labeling themselves for having normal reactions healthy reactions yeah so so shitty to say yeah exactly enough said so you went to m women's meetings how are they and especially over there they are fine I mean like they had childcare which I thought was cool.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Oh that makes sense so they were in a church so there was already a child caring there so there were things for the kids to do which I thought was nice and thoughtful obviously and usually they would get one of the members older adolescent kids to come and do the child care and they would pay them which was nice. Yeah um and then they would tell me like oh your daughter's gonna do this one day which obviously that didn't happen. So this is a lot of the conversation I don't know like the vibe was okay I guess I didn't really make friends but I knew people there weren't people my age really I was older people like 50s mostly and above lots of paternalistic attitudes still that's pretty AA um yeah and that's everywhere unfortunately judgment like weird pressures on marriage would come up sometimes or weird gendered stuff that I just wasn't into especially being like a what? That would be so hard to get married and like that doesn't mean like going to hell or something.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

No it doesn't yeah they did I mean that's such an that is definitely a product of that environment but so that would be so isolating especially when you're so young to hear that.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Did you feel what oh I just it was kind of like a weirdo and like into like division and stuff too also added a layer that wasn't helping me Yeah I never knew they had people like you in North Dakota be to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Oh my god it's mostly Tuppleware party from what I recall um did you feel in unsafe in the meetings or since you had a good head on your shoulders were you at least feeling you could trust yourself?

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Yeah I think for the most part I could I mean there are like those bigger events that I was mentioning earlier with like the creepy dudes that would kind of like creep up on you and start talking to you. But I usually was able to just walk away or whatever I had to do or just avoid those bigger events in general. So I mean again I think it depended on the meeting but I tried to stick away from the ones that have like more predatory size I guess.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

I don't know which is pretty rampant in that area so yes we talked about you feeling bad for not going to meetings after you stopped but did there it affect your thinking in other ways? Did you have a thought in three like oh no that's self-centered or um I'm using that as an example I'm not saying that's happened but things like that.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Yeah I I definitely did for a long time and I even still notice it kind of popping up being some little but yeah definitely like the kind of self-judgment for a while was happening. I would constantly wonder if I was being self-centered or whatever with all sorts of things which is so strange especially for like women coming out of trauma too it's like no you're more than likely not behaving in a self-centered way.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

Yeah exactly so that stuff kind of lingered for a while and shame I've had people say G grip it does it they apply that uh no it's because I kept getting sent to AA when I was being naughty but yeah they have a really good way of doing that. Thank you. It's creepy. If someone especially with someone who has trauma it's really scary to speak up in general it's terrifying and it takes bravery and then they're being shut down and being told they're ungrateful or self-centered that's just the last thing they need to hear in in helping themselves yeah definitely and like you were told you have to facilitate a meeting or whatever and if you don't then you're like self-centered or whatever and it's like yeah if you're not calling if you're not talking to the 10 newcomers who also don't want to be spoken to all the time because they're also traumatized and God forbid they have social anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Right. And did you run into members out in the wild?

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Yeah that's a good question. Thankfully I don't nah because I'm years away from that world and also states away.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

But after I left I did every once in a while but not very often and I never had any like weird run-ins or anything. I still have like a friend from I knew her before and then we both I think she's still in we follow each other on Instagram but we don't talk very often and I know I've had a lot of weird guilt like oh if I post this beer that I drank isn't that like she's gonna judge me or whatever. So I've had those kind of weird I know and that's totally natural.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

It's hard not to because it comes from an entire group it's not just her it represents a huge amount of people I've reposted on my personal the podcast and I I acted like it wasn't my podcast but I also removed people who could view it who aren't alcoholics anonymous and I know and probably it'd be good for them to see it but like I'm scared of I don't want to deal with the judgment. It's like it's so uneasy to think about.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Yeah and they they pretend or kind of say they don't talk about people and it's anonymous but they do they do talk about people.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Oh my God yeah I feel so bad for celebrities because they're always being outed they're always being outed they're like I saw this person I'm like this person this is why this person is still in the headlines for not saying sober it's because people like you aren't saying yeah oh dear yeah also the other thing is with the person who's seeing you like you're worried about seeing you drink beer that also is helpful for her to realize like you're living a very steady life and that it's super possible but she's been so isolated from that knowledge but it's also like who wants to deal with that judgment?

SPEAKER_01 41:17

You don't got time for that no not at all it's so so pointless to exactly no one needs that noise um did you get unsolicited advice yes definitely yeah all the time I feel like that happened like at every game yeah like just about anything like I said earlier with my daughter uh getting her birth and then dating stuff oh yeah and then just going to school like just all sorts of random I remember I biked to a meeting once I like to bike a lot and it was really hot out. So I was all sweaty when I got to the meeting which that makes sense and this person's like I can tell you need this. That was a crazy decision to make it like okay I don't know what to say to you.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Holy shit you're like sorry human biology sweats and like it's good to go on a walk. Yeah I I I was like at my six six or seven year mark and I went to a meeting and I move around a lot I'm just my body's it's just I have to be memory all the time and this guy's like I can tell you're a newcomer I'm like I bet I have more more sobriety than you do but yeah the big inflicted advice I have always heard and it's because I was polite is the higher power stuff. Oh yeah you're an atheist but actually you know what's going on in there is you need yeah I I guess you don't hear me final question so we never have to think about these assholes again what would you like listeners to know non-members current members pro former members people who want out which are a lot of people I've learned totally makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

I don't know I've been thinking about this a lot lately just even with like clients and friends and we've been saying this as we've been talking like sobriety is the spectrum that's okay like just because you drink coffee doesn't mean you're gonna spiral out of control because coffee is potentially addictive. Maybe you shouldn't drink it but maybe it's okay if you do and like it's also okay like if you try out AA and you find it's not working it's okay to try something else. Like please try something else. Um and if it works for you it works for you. That's fine but please know that there are other other options and like it's really really okay and maybe you just need to be sober for a bit while you deal with some shit and like figure some stuff out and then you can try it again and that's totally also fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I drink maybe once a month now and I've gone through times where I drink more but chronic illness gets triggered from alcohol and so I don't drink that much mostly because of that and that's also fine.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Period exactly I hope everyone like it is a spectrum and it really is okay and if you leave you're probably not gonna die you can you that's your likeliness is I think more people are likely who are such big book thumpers and then go out because they go so hard that's more likely. If you're having reservations um but yeah thank you that was really great feedback and this has been an amazing talk. I feel like after the insanity of yesterday I'm like okay I feel better. So you actually helped me too so thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Cool yeah I love talking about this stuff so I'm glad I was I'm glad to talk that I'm glad that I reached out was so fucking conducive.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Oh thank you it really conveyed all the information and really well put explanation that I have a hard time doing so cool. This was Heather you've been amazing and thank you so much for being joining. Yeah thanks for doing this I enjoyed our conversation show notes are on patreon.com slash CW slash in recovery that's patreon.com slash w slash in recovery have a question or story you want to address on the podcast send it to recovery fromapod at pm.me that's recovery from a pod at pm.me and I may read and respond to it in an upcoming episode