OCD Collides with 12 Steps: An Autopsy with Guest Darcie

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) clash because the peer-led, moral-inventory framework of AA can accidentally trigger or feed OCD cycles rather than treat the underlying anxiety. The rigid, dogmatic rules of 12-step programs often morph into new compulsions for someone with untreated OCD. Excessive rumination on program literature, rigidly counting meeting attendance, or repeating steps are parallel with classic OCD ritualistic loops. AA's focus on profound personal inventory and powerlessness can exacerbate the severe guilt, scrupulosity, and self-blame inherent in OCD.

Enter Darcie, a woman with a long history of OCD, whose alcoholism entered more recently. Meeting attendance and feedback loops made her head spin. The oversaturated discussion of drinking made her think more about drinking and less about a "white light." Between that, a traumatic brain injury, and interpreting life after gastric bypass surgery, she's had to piece together her past and understand her biology faster than lightning. And she's doing it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey guys, before this episode starts, I want you to know that Darcy was a special guest because she was my first guest, and I had technical issues which delayed this release. And I'm excited for you to hear her story. So you know that's always special. She is out of Rhode Island and her name is Darcy. I am so excited to have her and hear experience and strength in removing herself from meetings and a lot of hope based off of how I've gotten to see her and what she's talked about. So I'm really excited to talk to you, Darcy. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

I'm good. I'm good. How are you? You good? Um, I'm good. It takes me so long to wake up. Uh yeah. If I yeah. I'm lucky. I'm I'm a few hours ahead of you here. So I'm a little poor.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

But if it's 115 there, like when I'm at 115, and maybe it's just Sundays, but once I get to 115, I'm still like, why can't I get my life together? It's around two that I'm like, oh, I'm outside.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Yeah, I get that. I do. I get it. Today too. I like I woke up and I was just, I don't know. I was like, ugh. Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

I mean, maybe it's like after dealing with the Scots partying and your pie.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

It it was just, it was amazing. The shenanigans, it was right in our town. It was great. They were going into the city and yeah, they were having a good time.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

We were just talking about how the Scots have gone to Boston, messed with the statues, and they ran out of beer in Boston because even Boston can't handle Scots. And I was thinking about the East Coast meetings. They're so hardcore on the East Coast. It's a little more snowflaky and candy canes and lollipops on the West Coast, but they are, you know, the quiet slayer. So I imagine they're like working overtime right now in Boston with the Scots there. They're probably so like, oh my god, we need so much prayer.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

I can only imagine. I really can only imagine. I've been to meetings on both coasts. I because I lived in California for about five years.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Um where in California?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

So I was in I was in Ventura for a little while. Um, and then I was in San Diego for one year, and then we moved back up to Camarillo. But um, I was actually working in Santa Barbara, so I was there and I had gone to a couple of meetings there. I oh you went to meetings there, okay. And I went to meetings in San Diego, which was completely different, and then um, and and those meetings weren't a problem for me, I'll be honest. Uh they weren't hardcore, you know, it was very relaxed. So when I came here and started going to meetings here, like you said, yeah, it's very different on the East Coast, especially this area.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Boston, Rhode Island, maybe Vermont even uh face is just the most grit, hardcore, very direct, get your ass in the chair kind of speaking. Yeah, and you know, I had a lot of Bostonian, I had a Bostonian sponsor here in San Francisco, and actually she was the most chill. I think she must have uh I don't know, she got so much Boston, she had a lot of empathy. I something happened where she just kind of got it. Um yeah, and she had probably felt very misunderstood in Boston, which I want to be surprised. But yeah, in San Diego and Santa Barbara, those are college towns that are like probably more youthful and more you know surfer-y in California. Yeah, yeah, a lot of surfers, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

And military. Yeah, there yep. And and that was a big part of it. In San Diego, there was a lot of a military, um, a lot of veterans in those meetings. And you look at that and you're like, hmm, if that isn't an indicator of our government's kind of, I don't want to get too political, but like what our government welcome to okay, like what our government's kind of like not doing for our veterans, a lot of them are self-medicating, and that's how they get out, and that's what they do, you know. Yeah, and a lot of them spoke about that, and it was it was hard to hear. And you hear men and women tears, and it it was hard to see. And that was another thing that really broke me. They're over there, like they're doing this for our country. You can't agree or disagree with what they're doing, but what they're doing, they are protecting our rights, and I think they deserve care when they come back, and uh, they're not getting it, and it's the worst system, it is, it is, and it it really upset me. I would leave the meeting and I'll be on uh I'd go drink because I'd be like, Okay, our veterans don't even get help, like, screw it. Oh no, I mean let's go get drunk.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

There are so many veterans on the streets right now, young and old, struggling with severe PTSD. Yeah, they're getting shot at, they're coming home, misunderstood, everyone's mad at them because there is a war, and then they think it's the soldiers' fault. There, it's just this constant lair.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

I could go on for like days about that, honestly. I mean, that's one thing. I used to look at my grandfather who had was in World War II, he was 88th Armored Division. That's well, and I wouldn't he, I mean, he would barely speak about it, you know, but you know, he had seen atrocities. I mean, he liberated a work camp under Auschwitz, and he said on his deathbed, he had never said this at all. And I was only 14. It was just me and him in the hospital, and he looked at me, he said, Here I am, I'm dying, and it's still nothing compared to what I saw carrying those people out of that camp. And he said they were skin and bones, and they were just the way they were treated. And I just looked at him, and I was 14, but this man who never spoke of the war really, and because he had also been like after the war, he toured with like this band, and they they played like all around Europe, so you know, to try to like spirits and stuff. And we're actually they have a couple of things on YouTube, like recordings of them playing, you know, like I have to add that to show notes later. They were trying to like make people happy with this music, and he would talk about that, but he wasn't gonna talk about so you you think back and you're like every war had its its mark and okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

So, do you consider yourself so sober or in recovery or recovered, or where are you at with all of this?

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Um I'm definitely in recovery. So my addiction started actually with eating with binge eating. I had gastric bypass in 2019. Um wow, yeah, I would have never guessed that, but congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. I weighed almost 330 pounds when I had it done. I was basically dying. And before that, I wasn't a drinker. I mean, I'd have a couple of drinks here and there. Um, but it was food. It was food that was my addiction. And I would just gorge myself, you know. Um, I was so depressed all the time. And I that was just my my go-to, you know. And I was at the point where my doctors were telling me, like, hey, you're not gonna make it to 40, you know, you're really not doing well. My pulmonologist was gonna put me on oxygen. If I'm five feet tall, I weigh 330 pounds. Like, that's you know, I had stress fractures in my legs, like I was just not doing well, and I couldn't breathe. It was horrible. I would go visit my friends and I could walk like 15 feet, and then I'd be like, exhausting. You know, and it was it was horrible. And um finally the pulmonologist he did the uh sleep study on me, and he was like, I don't know how you're alive. My my father was sitting right there in the room with me, and he looked at at him, he's like, I don't know. I she the amount of time she stops breathing at night while she sleeps, I don't know how she's even alive. So they gave me, you know, the CPAP and everything, and then he wrote up that he was like, She needs to have this done immediately, you know, or else she's probably gonna die in her sleep. And so that's where you know, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

It was almost last-minute decision because out of no and CPAP is with the breathing, yeah. Um what is it called? The like people use it when they have um sleep apnea.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

So okay, yeah, which I had I had like really like bad, you know, and so I looked like you know, I was in Top Gun, like, you know, yeah, goose. Yeah. And it was an insane because I was always like, I'm not wearing that thing, you know. And then I the minute I put it on, I fell asleep and I woke up the next morning and I felt amazing. And I was like, I'm like, oh crap. I'm like, he was right, and I'm like, oh, the pulmonologist who went to medical school was right. Um so I basically trust no one. Yeah, I had it done August 29th of 2019, and I ended up losing in all 175 pounds. And well, it's it it's such a mind. Can I I don't can I swear? I cuss so much, yeah. Okay, it's a mine, it's such a mind fuck, you know. Yeah, I bet. I still look in the mirror and I'm like, even all this time out later, I'm like, what the hell? I'll go to buy clothes and I'll buy clothes two sizes too big because I'm like I was gonna say, do you have body dysmorphia because of it? I do, I really do. I I don't even recognize myself a lot of the time. Oh wow, and I'll see pictures and I'm like, uh, what is who is that? And people are like, oh my god. And I'm like, uh no. Was it a lifetime struggle? No, no. So I started as a dancer. Oh yeah, say less. I'm just kidding. Yeah, exactly. And I never had a dancer's body, but I was never like huge, you know. And you know, if you want to be in a company, you have to fit into their their costumes, and they're all size like twos and zero, like you have to be tiny. You can be good enough to be in the company, but if you don't fit in their their stuff, you're not gonna you're not gonna make the company, yeah. And my dad was a hockey player, and I looked at him, I said, I want to play hockey. And he just looked at me and he said, Oh sh no. He's like, I don't think that's a good idea, and I was like, Why not? And he was just like, Your mother's gonna be really pissed off. And I was like, Well, you can tell her, you know, like that's your job. I was like nine, you know, I was almost 10, and he's just like, Well, you know, like most kids start skating really young, and then it's gonna be a real battle. And I'm like, I I wanna do it. So he was like, All right, let me let me see what I can do. She was not happy, of course. He finally talked her into it, and then I got in the next season and I started skating. I could not skate at all. Okay, um, I was 10 years old out there with all these kids, just and they kind of just threw me to the wolves. And you know, one of the guys he didn't realize my dad was my dad, and they were like raiding the kids, and um, it was one, two, and three. And they came up to me and they're like, Yeah, she's a deep three. Oh, and I was like, I found this out later when I was older, but my dad was like, dude, that's my kid, and he was like, Oh, I'm so sorry. But they put me on this house league team, and it was like, you know, you'd go out every two minutes, the shift would change, and I started that way, and then my friend's father said, Hey, take her to, you know, there's this guy he had played for the Bruins, and he um is in Cranston, Rhode Island, and he had this skating clinic, and it was really just all skating for the most part. Yeah, he took me to that, it was three nights a week, um, you know, all summer. And it was by the time I finished that, I it was like I had been skating for years. Oh, it was on, yeah. It was like the guy was so militant, like he was there was no, you know, yeah, there was no k goofing around with him, you know. It was like nice you're gonna do these drills and you're gonna figure this out. And so the next year I made I made a one team, which I went from a deep three to a one. Yes, I was so fortunate. I was so fortunate to have a team that really had my back.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Oh, that's so cool. Um that sounds really fun.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, but that does play into my story though, the drinking. Right, yeah. I moved out to California. Um, and my husband and I we got married very young. We were 21, we hardly knew each other. I was at the time pregnant, I ended up losing the baby. Oh, and we didn't know each other, and he was in the navy, so he was gone a lot. It it just we had a lot of fertility issues that I'm sorry, thank you. It it put a lot of stress on the marriage, and he had some things happen to him. He had PTSD himself, oh, and I didn't know how to help him. And uh, we were living together, but we were like roommate, we weren't talking. He's a wonderful human being. I went out there without him, and I had said I wanted a divorce, and so I started realizing, like, oh, I like wine, I like wine. And at first it wasn't a problem. Like, I just have a few glasses after work, you know, not every day. I wanted a divorce, and I started seeing someone out there, and um, it was not a healthy relationship. This person is also a very good person. I have to say that we both had our demons, we all both had things going on, but the situation I started self-medicating and I was drinking a lot, you know. I mean, so I had the gastric bypass and it's gonna take in that alcohol so much quicker, you know. Yeah, so I I mean there were nights I would have four bottles of wine and it it I would just be yeah, it was out, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

And this was after the um before and after um like bypass. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Yeah, well before, no, before I never I I would have like two glasses of wine at dinner, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Okay, I'd be so uh Okay, so uh trying to figure out the timeline. So you got a divorce. Yeah, well, I you went to San Diego.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

There's no divorce yet. There we were just separated. Um I had told him that, and then I went out, you know, I went out and I started just drinking like a little bit, and then I got into the other relationship, and that's when the drinking really started to get heavier because it was just not a it wasn't a good relationship for either of us, you know. We both were not healthy, and we were both engaging in behaviors that weren't healthy, and um, I was drinking four bottles of wine, you know, every this was what um when how long uh after how long were you with your husband? I was with him okay, so we got married in 2004, and then I went out there in 2020. Oh, so you were with him uh for uh 16 years?

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Yeah. Oh, I didn't know how long okay, wow. Okay, so yeah, it is after the bypass to clarify for people that like you got the bypass and then you went to San Diego and like separated. Okay, yeah, thank you. Sorry for cutting.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

That happens a lot with that surgery, you know. And and he, I don't I I don't want to say he wasn't supportive of the surgery, but you know, I would ask him to kind of like go to um support groups with me that they would have, he wouldn't want to go. And I felt like this guy doesn't want me to have this surgery, it's almost like he wanted me to just stay the way I was. Stuck. Yeah, yeah, I just needed him, and it was that was what did it to me for me. It was like he wasn't there, it hurt, it hurt so bad, and he was going through his own stuff so badly that he couldn't be there for me, and and it still hurts, but that's how that went, you know. So when I was with him, you know, he never and he had even said to me when I came back from California and I was really having problems, he was like, You n I never saw you drink before, really. He's like, What is going on? Yeah you know, because we've been in contact, and that's a whole other but he he was basically like, I have never seen you drink before. What is this? You jumped, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

And now it's a phenomenon that they're really doing a lot more research with transfer addiction with gastric bypass patients and moving over and a lot of people become alcoholics after they have this surgery because they're looking for that new, you know, it's a binge, yes, and you're talking about like jumping from bypass to another addiction, it's sure these pathways are connected to just not turning, shutting off signals to your brain that it's time to stop, like with binging food or binging alcohol. And I think that I really hope there is more research into treat alcoholism.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

I hope so too. I really do. That's gonna be so important. All addiction, they have to do something.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

They need to. It's crazy. That's why everyone's doing AA because there's not been enough scientific research. But they're like, oh, AA is like the scientific solution is God, but it's not, it's not science.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Hopefully, here we go.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Hurry. You finished though what you were talking about with your jump to alcoholism.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

At first it was fun, and I would start drinking. And in certain situations, when I was with certain people, I would get very angry and I would tell them how I felt about them, which was not great, you know. Yep. Um tell it like it is drunk. And it would it was like, look, um, if you slighted me, you're gonna hear about it. Yeah. The relationship I was in out there. Um I felt very taken advantage of. Yeah. Especially when when you're someone who internalizes everything.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

I have to say, I'm not saying everyone's like that, but the East Coast does have a way of being really good at pushing shit down. Yeah, that's a huge part of um my culture.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

I'm like, how do they do that? Yeah, that that's actually the biggest part of my my issue. Uh I bet.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

You've been trained really well. I'm guessing that you're being brought into Alcoholics Anonymous or 12-step meetings.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah. So, like I I mentioned the ones out there didn't bother me. Um, it it wasn't cult-like out there for me anyway. The ones I went to. Um, I came back here and I had a really good job. It was a stressful job, but it was a good job. I was just drinking all the time. I'm living in my childhood bedroom. I feel like I'm regressing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Um pushed down came at like the 35 years on this earth.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Well, the thing too is before I had that gastric bypass, I really did think I was gonna die before I even turned 40. So I didn't bother to get any help, and I didn't bother to talk about any of my things at all. Yeah. So things had happened in my childhood that I never talked about. So now it's all bubbling up, and uh, now you have to face this stuff. It was all coming out, and uh my parents didn't know about some of the stuff that had happened. I was holding on to a lot of anger for a few people in my family. I would drink and I would start just letting it all out, and they'd be like, What the hell? You know, like we didn't know. That was the thing with my parents. They never were like, Oh, you're making that like they always were like, Oh no, we believe you. Like a lot of people in the family were like coming out and saying, Hey, this stuff happened to us, and this one relative did this, and this, you know, and I was just angry. I was I hate who I am when I drink. I'm mean, and you know, it it's a switch. I just turn into this like monster. And I came home and I It was August of 2024. I had a really bad night. I had fallen, I broke my nose, it was bad. And I went into treatment the next day. And so I was at this IOP and they were like, you know, you should go to meetings. And I'm like, okay. So I'm in an IOP all day. And then I'm going to a meeting at night. And it's like, it was just it was overkill. You know, it was like burnout. And and I'm sitting in this meeting, and it's like everybody's just talking about drinking, drinking, drinking, drinking, drinking. And I'm like, first of all, I have OCD. So that alone, like the compulsion, it just sparks it even worse in my head.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

And it I'm just like obsessed. I'm like, I need a drink. I need a drink. I need a drink. And you know, just the constant talking about it. It's like, I don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

You need a like actual separation from the topic because you already have intrusive thoughts all the time.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Exactly. So that's OCD. That's one thing about AA. And then people will say to me, Oh, that's a cop out. And I'm like, that it's not a cop out. It's not a cop out. You know.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

It's actually very, I mean, it's just very aware of you to notice like this sort of stuff, because it never like really popped in my mind before. Cause like uh I developed OCD in AA, but I I was like so worried about relapsing. But it was just because I constantly heard about alcohol, and once I stepped away from it a little more, I was like, I never think about alcohol now.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Exactly. So I had been going to these meetings. This is hard because I've I had this friendship that recently ended. I'm not going to talk too much about it, but her significant other has been sober for quite some time, which is amazing. He's a wonderful person. She's a wonderful person. We're we just don't drive anymore. But I had gone to a meeting with somebody that I met at the IOP, and it was reported back to her by him, who I was at the meeting with.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Oh, so anonymous.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Yeah. And I'm like, I should have autonomy when I'm at these meetings. That's not cool, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

And also AA does they that's the first thing they say in meetings. We have no autonomy.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

And it's like you stay here, what happens here stays here. That's what they say in the meeting. And I'm like, why would you go home and tell someone what you saw at a meeting? I deserve privacy, you know, like I deserve a safe space too to be able, you know. So after that, it was like I'm never gonna share in this meeting. Cause there are things that just because this person is my best friend doesn't mean she needs to know certain things that it that I you still have to work it out with yourself too.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

You're still figuring it out before you want to share it with others, like exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

And it's not like I'm keeping secrets, it's nothing like that. It's just you're sorting it out. Exactly. And and there are some things I wasn't even ready to like admit yet, you know. Yeah. And it's like, holy crap, you know. So no, I'm not gonna if you're at this meeting, I'm not gonna share, you know. And you know, I had relapsed a couple of times, and you know, oh, go up and get a coin. Well, I'm not gonna get a coin if he's there. She doesn't need to know when I relapse. So I would just not, and I know you don't have to go get the coin, but I'm not gonna do it. And that's the other thing for me, counting days is not good for me because I get so obsessed when it's like, oh my god, oh, you know, like it's been it's a shame loop too.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

I get the first 24 hours, the first 48 hours, but like having to get your chip every day is I think a way to put people up as it's starts because then you're like constantly being coddled every time you get a chip too, they're like coming for you, and you're like, this is day 29, I'm done with like talking to people. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Yeah, no, no, that's that's it. There are people that I had in my life who like they used going to meetings at as this like badge of honor. Like, I I went to six meetings this week, and I went to and it's like, okay, great. Like, I have a full-time job, like I can't, I'm sorry, I'm exhausted. You know, after work, I don't want to go listen to sad fucking stories. I'm sorry. I'm listening. Okay. I it's just I can't go listen to this right now, you know, and it's like, oh, you're you're lazy, you're you know, it's a cop out, blah blah blah blah blah. And I would get that from people.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

And I'm like you feel pressure to like skip things that you mattered to you to go to a meeting because they put that demand yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

That pressure, yes, and it was like I'm not doing that, you know. So in March, so you know, I kept drinking, I took a different job and I was getting paid a lot less. Oh, so I was really struggling the pay bills, so I was even more depressed, stressed out. So I was drinking a lot, you know, and I got a DUI and and this was this was March of 2025, and somebody from my high school pulled me over.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Oh, I'm so sorry, Dorothy, these darn small towns.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

So and she comes up to the car and she's like, Oh, come on. And I'm like, So she's like, I gotta do this. I'm like, I know, I know, and I was so upset, I was so angry at myself for doing it because I put everybody on the road in danger. I could have killed someone, I could have hurt someone, not even myself, like other people, you know. Yeah, like I said, I have OCD, so every day I like I beat myself up over this.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

To this day, I'm like, what were you thinking? So they got me to the police department, and I was really upset, and I said, I want to die. Oh. So I ended up at the hospital. Yeah, psych ward hour. Yeah. Yeah. And then the state of Massachusetts decides, oh, you're an immediate threat because you said you wanted to die. So it it made it even harder for me to get my license back. It was hard because I had I had been doing well, and then one night I'm in December, uh, it was actually December 6th, I had had beer. It was like uh cider, hard cider. And um I had, you know, a lot of it, but it was the night before. And then I I went, yeah, and then I went out the next day and my dog was in the car. I usually would, you know, strap her in. I didn't. She jumped into the front seat with me and I hit the telephone pole. I had slammed my head, my nose was bleeding, and I have a history of traumatic brain injury anyway. So they came, the car was totaled, and I the whole time I'm just worried about my dog. Where's my dog? Is she okay? I told them what happened. I said, Hey, she jumped in my lap. I I lost control of the car, and they were like, Have you been drinking? And I said, I drank last night. Yeah, so then they charged me again with another DUI. So it got dropped. The UI got dropped, but it was like, What are you doing? So I where's the dog at this point? She's fine. She's okay. Sorry, I was on the edge of my seat. No, that was what I was I was more worried about her.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Even at the I feel you, like I'm literally just getting up because my dog can't get up. I'm like, oh.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

But she she's my baby, you know, and like usually I strap her in and I do all the stuff. I'm like, we're just going up the street real fast. Like, oh, it's just horrible luck. Yeah. And it, you know, and they say, like, oh, most accidents happen within like a mile of your mile or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And so I hit a telephone pole, all the houses in the neighborhood lost power. It sorry, that's just it's just, I'm like, what in high tide, that's just kind of you can have a laugh on that.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

I hope.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

What are you doing? And I wasn't drunk, I didn't feel drunk. I mean, if you had if you had done a breathalyzer, I would have been powerful. Yeah, it's that rotting, uh, oh hangover. Yeah. But like, and I'm just like, I can't believe, like, what are you doing with your life? There was someone in my life who would just stop basically stop talking to me. Even when I was sober, I would ask, I'd say, can we talk? Like, what's going on? You know? Um, no, everything's fine. Okay, okay. So finally, New Year's Eve lost it. I I really got drunk. Um, and I sent a bunch of texts, and I was like, if you have a problem with me, you need to tell me because I have a real issue with being ignored. Like, that was one way that um my my dad used to kind of use that as a a weapon against um, he would use the silent treatment. And this person knew that was my biggest trigger. Um and then doing it to me and then not expecting it to elicit a a response. I don't agree with how I did it. I there was a a fire started, and it could have been handled better by both of us, I think. And now that's completely over. I'm not gonna make amends. That's bullshit because the other person is not gonna take any responsibility. And there was action on their part.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

And yeah, I think sometimes people leave out when you do an amends, that means you're apologizing for their behavior too, because you're not asking for a uh apology, but then that makes you completely have to be it's reinforcing this like I have to sacrifice pre my existence and be catering to other it does reinforce that kind of thinking, I think. Even though, yeah, there there's two wrongs, but you can say let's just cut our loss and and that's what I've done.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

I wish that person nothing but happiness. And I know that sounds cliche and whatever, but it all started with the reporting back after meetings to her. It like yeah that's where the the trust broke down in the first place. Yeah, I mean, that's where it started. It started with that. People will say, Oh, they tell each other everything, it's so cute. I'm like, that's not cute, that's messed up, and I'm you know, I'm done with that. And on New Year's Day, I said, I'm not I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not gonna put people I love through hell anymore. Um, I did have a slip. I had let somebody into my life who again is somebody I love very much, but he's just in a different spot in his life. And it I said, no, I'm not doing this. I'm not a relationship right now, nothing like that. We're not doing this because you're not ready. And I know that some people do fine with relationships while they're in recovery, but for me right now, no, I can't do it, and that's just where I am.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Yeah, I mean, that is I do dislike how sponsors will put in this you have to wait a year. Oh, that's I mean, for me, I was like, I needed to wait two years. I had uh, but I had my first boyfriend at 11 months, and I was like, Oh, it would have been nicer just to wait two years because I had the worst boyfriend at that time. Yeah, but I do think it's a bullshit, it's not from the big book, nor does the big book have the best advice. No, but it's not a sponsor's business, they have no training, they only have their ex lived experience.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Right, right. And that and that's the other thing that this person was also he's been sober for a good amount of time, and I'm really proud of him. That's great. Yeah, so he's just somebody I'll always love.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

And there are times, especially early recovery, where you have to take space. You do, you do. Um and for other people. I mean a lot of people, not just romance. Yeah, I guess I'm gonna ask some more questions. Yeah, please. AA related. So a few things. You were talking about like your rage due to what happened to you. Did you do all steps actually? Have you done all the steps? Tried them? Oh. Did you get through any of them?

unknown 35:23

No.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Oh, okay. Because going through the fourth step, and it's all about your part. Do you say what happened to you, um, what the part was, or whatever, and then your part, and it's usually the sponsor will say, Well, what was your part in being molested, or what was your part in being abused? And on the and then it's just one of the nastiest rhetoric. So of that.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

I knew that though, about that step, and I was like, that's one of the reasons why I was like, no, I'm I'm not doing that. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Did you ever attend other meetings or done Dharma? Dharma, what is it?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Recovery Dharma?

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Yeah, I went to one of those, and it was just very um okay. Are you familiar with when they say alcoholism or addiction is an allergy? You have an allergy? Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Or is that like um, I don't know. I no, I don't think it is, but okay. I mean, if that if that helps some people, all right. I mean, it doesn't that does not help me.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Yeah, it's uh I guess it's good to plead the fifth a little bit, but and it has been scientifically proven that that's not a fucking allergy.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

I was just gonna say, I was just gonna say I am a scientific person, and no, it's not yeah, that must be one of the hardest parts for you in AA and 12-step meetings is that there's lacking so much scientific evidence that you're just like I'm like, what? Who said this? And and and the fact too that he was a doctor, and it's still like wow, guys didn't know shit back then. Like they didn't know shit.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

I think though, like Bill Wilson was brilliant at PR, he was brilliant at networking, and so the first letter forward from Dr. Silkworth was, Oh, yeah, this can help. I see how this meaning soon help. And then AA grew bigger, and he had a second letter. He's like, Yeah, this is definitely a scientifically proven that you just need a higher power, but it also like seems written with like a gun to his head, like, yeah, it's a higher power.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

And the guy's like, all right, oh yeah, sure, sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

And then getting Carl Jung in there, fuck you, like Young, those guys. The other thing that um since you were in fourth uh east coast meetings, you hear get your ass in the chair, sh sit down and shut up for non-12-step people. That is a common denominator that does trickle down to the West Coast, because you know, East Coast people moved to California for the sunshine. Yeah. So did you get called selfish or self-centered? Were you assigned a personality that didn't fit for you?

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Yeah, by my peers. You were, oh, you're being lazy, you're it's a cop out, you're not gonna work a program, you're doing it your own way, you're not gonna succeed, like that kind of stuff. And you have no idea what is going through my head at these meetings, how stressed out I am because I feel like I have to be perfect, the perfectionism that I have because of other issues I have. It's like these are co-occurring disorders, and and you can't just ignore the other disorders to fix one of the, you know, that's why we self-medicate. So I would just keep drinking because I'm never gonna perform to this level of perfection that AA wants me to. So fuck fuck it. I'm just gonna keep drinking, and that's how I felt.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

There are those AA members or those 12-step members who they do the best of they can. Perfect program. Yeah, they're just perfectionists, they have like three to twelve sponsees, they're going to one meeting a day, two meetings a day, they are doing everything their sponsor asks them to, but then it's still not enough. They'll still get all this um pressure and uh criticism, and then they go out because they're like, Well, fuck you, and so they go so hard in AA that they go out and they go even harder. Yes. Um, and I just think people with OCD or perfectionism or just wanting to be a good person and be sober, yeah, receives like it really can be a reinforcement. And if they survive when they go back out, um if they survive, they come back and it's just this intense shame cycle, and then they go back to that perfectionistic uh behavior.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Yeah, I mean, that and that's the other thing too, is like in the past year, you know, I've almost died a few times. So I was found on the side of the road. Um I had had a seizure. If I were on one of the back roads that wasn't traveled a lot, who knows what would have happened. At the time, like my my husband and I were trying to work on it, and this was in October.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

This October, your ex-husband and you were because you're separated still, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Reconciliation, okay. But it's over, it's completely over now. Yeah, and he he ended up, you know, showing up at the side of the road with my father. Oh he was like the next day he said, Do you even realize what happened to you? Oh yeah. And I was like, No, and he said, You had a seizure, like you were you were like in bad shape. I had no idea. I was really drinking myself to death. And sadly, my mother-in-law passed away in August of 2020 of an accidental overdose. I think that's why he also stepped back because he's like, I don't think he can handle losing another person to addiction. And I don't blame him. I haven't shown him. It takes a long time to rebuild trust, you know. And so I also see where he's coming from.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

You need to look out for August because these huge things happened to you in August. This loss of a mother-in-law, yeah, the going uh to rehab in August 2024, and then the bypass in August 2019. Which thank God you did it before COVID. I know. I I know. I um wait, what kind of did you just go to regular meetings? Or did you go to women's, newcomers, old timers, nonspecific?

SPEAKER_00 41:44

I've gone to women's meetings and um those were scary. And I went to except for one of them. One of them was actually really not bad. And then it's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

If you want, you can uh extend on that. But I my worst experiences in AA were in women's meetings.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Well, there's there was one I had gone, I don't go to it anymore. I had gone to a few times, and I met some really they were actually really nice. Okay, cool. That was okay. Was that in California? No, that was actually, yeah. But the one in California I went to was scary, and it was like they were all like um, they were all older women, and they were like, you know, I was raised by two hippies, so I it doesn't I have that mentality, but they were all very like Laurel Canyon um dang and Sonya ex Sanyasin, yeah, and it was like I'm like, oh my god, they wanted to like I don't know, like just like bring me into their world, and it was like, no, no, no, I don't want to do that, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like you should come to the circle with us and get the and I'm like, no, I'm not going with circle, I'm not oh yeah, a drum circle. Yeah, I'm like, and we're gonna dance. Yeah, I was like, no, I think uh I'm no, thank you, but I okay drink the screen juice, and it was just I went to that one twice because I was like, maybe it's it'll be okay. And then the next time it was even scarier because it was like you're like, I'm not joining the cult, I don't have time for this. And it was like a cult, it was like that that truly was. Um I'm not doing this, and then I went to a meeting called We Agnostics, which was kind of cool because it it didn't focus so much on God, but some people talked about science as their higher power, so I thought that was okay. I'm like, all right, this is respect, yeah. I'm like, okay, and then there was the young people's meeting that I had a spy at and I didn't like. And it that meeting it was very clicky, and yeah, you know, it was people had started that meeting and had been at it for so many years that they felt like they owned it and it I I just didn't

SPEAKER_02 44:01

That's what I always struggled with. And it wouldn't be like meetings that were established that long ago sometimes. It is natural, I guess, for these groups to be clicky, but I don't do clicks. The mean girl vibe is so hard for I mean it's ironic because so many of us were uh outcasts growing up because uh you know that's addicts, and somehow they managed to some of them not be, I guess, and be really cruel.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Yeah. I don't do clicks, even in high school. Like I didn't hang out with a group of people.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

I uh you were too busy playing on a hockey team of boys only.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Like I just want to say hi to everyone, you know? And then um my congeniality. Well, it's funny because I went to Catholic school my whole life and okay, I've said this is why you're here right now. Yes. See, I should have I should have started with that.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

You know what? Yeah, I think that like nice people do find nice each people. I mean, that's how it's it's natural for that to happen. And I also think this fits into the personality assignments that happen in 12 steps where they think you've always been selfish and self-centered and a taker and stuff, and that's rarely the deal. You can be that when you have alcohol in your system, and that uh you as an anyone, but like it also doesn't define the whole experience of a person and when they go in there, they already hate themselves so much. There are people who are abusive that go in there and they do need to have some reality checks, but just because we are have made mistakes doesn't mean that we're these kind of whatever Bill Wilson is, no, we're not all Bill Wilson. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Did you ever have a sponsor? I did for like a couple of months. I'm ashamed of this, but I kind of ghosted her. I it was like I didn't want to wake up every morning and do gratitude, and I didn't want, you know, it was like, yeah, I'm happy. I woke up, like, cool. I don't need to text you three things I'm grateful for every fucking morning. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 46:03

I mean, that is how they um that's how they program you into like the kind of cult-like thinking independency. Yeah. So yeah, no, I mean, I think most sponsors get ghosted. It is what it is. It just makes you because you feel more pressure and frightened, and then you just don't want to interact with them anymore. You just want to remove yourself. And so we do. I probably ghosted. I don't I can't remember anymore. There's stuff I don't remember about AA anymore because I think I like locked it. But um Yeah, I guess that also makes me think of you said that because of having to be so active in 12-step is you said at the beginning that you're in recovery. And did you know that's actually a 12-step only seeing? And like, no, I mean this happened to me because I was talking reaching out to someone who is like a scientist who uh opposes AA, and I asked her, I said, I've been in recovery for 10 years, but in I was in AA even before that. And he's like, You're not in recovery, you're recovered, because that means you have to depend on AA for the rest of your life if you do in recovery. And I was like, Wow, because then you always kind of think you're sick.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

That see, that's my thing, and that's where I stand right now. So I have this account on Instagram, and it's like I post a lot of sobriety stuff, but I don't want it to be all that I am, you know. I because that's not all that I am. I'm not just somebody who has a problem drinking with drinking because that's not who I am, it's not the only thing that I am, you know, and and that's where I struggle. And I'm multifaceted. I have no problem with creators who do make it their thing, you know. That if it works for them, that's great. Yeah, I'm not here to say that they're doing anything wrong and they've helped me. Some of them have helped me, but that's not what I want. I want to be me. Well, yeah. Um, okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Okay, what about something that you did like about 12-step meetings? Is there a takeaway you got that was helpful? If there's nothing, that's all good too. No, okay, not after Darcy. I I respect I respect the uh skepticism. I hear let's go into the God stuff.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Okay, here we go. All right. I was raised Catholic. My grandparents were these people that they went to church every weekend, but they weren't like holy rollers or anything like that. We were Azorian Catholics, and they were just very good people. For them, it was all about the golden rules like do unto others as you that and that's how they raised my mother and my aunt, and that's how you know I was raised. Look into yourself, and that's what I'm trying to do is like when I was looking for something to fill me up, I was going to that substance, you know. And now it's like, all right, you need to look inside yourself and say, hey, what what's missing? You know, and try to figure it out and try to be your own higher power and find, you know, it doesn't have to be God. It doesn't, you know, it it doesn't have you religion doesn't have to be shoved down your throat, you know. And that was one of the things at AA that I was like, I was really annoyed by, you know, it was like, oh God, I'm Christian. And it's like, no, no. And and that's that's where I really was like, I can't do this at all. You know, I'm not I'm not gonna do this. I have I have a lot of issues with God, and I'm not gonna sit here and ask him to, you know, cure me of this. Like, get get out of here, you know?

SPEAKER_02 49:48

And also just the uh it just it they do say there's they know that some people came in having a bad relationship with God or trauma around it, and yet they're like, but it can be anything you want, it could be a doorknob. They pitch that to you, and then you get in it further and further, and it's clearly very much a more Christian-based God based off of the Oxford group. You still hear God, and they're like, Well, we just use God as a placeholder, but then it just becomes closer and closer to this type of ideology, yeah, and it's so frustrating. You're like, I feel so tricked. And it's not even like if you're a Christian or you believe in a God, it's just that it shouldn't be this one. Everyone's per experience with their God, or if they're atheists, that's who um is not quite someone's business when you're trying to get sober. It's not actually at all, and it's not a person who doesn't have any psychiatric education to tell you what your God is. That's what spiritual coercion is. Yes. And yeah, yeah, it is that is what spiritual coercion is. Some kind of strangers acting like they have all the knowledge and telling you how to believe, but also giving you smoke and mirrors by saying it's not really a god and you can believe in this, but then they will like correct you if you believe in some kind of god they don't approve of, or if you which I always made up. I was like, Oh, I believe in this. And then you know they're like, well, it's good orderly direction. I'm like, direction to your fucking yeah, male god, and uh there was the other one, you plus me equals uh power high greater than ourselves. So that means like a sponsor is like a higher power when they use that terminology.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Hell no, like they're just another friggin' human that you know that is fucking fried. Like we're all messy, like they're punched in, they're just punched in. It's like, come on, I would always just be like, No, I'm not doing this. But go through the motions, and and that was one of the things, like I hadn't been to a meeting in like over a year, and then I had to go because I had to go to two court-ordered ones, so oh right, yeah. So that that just brought me back, and I'm sitting there, I still know I can't do this, and that was like a few months ago.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

It was your last meeting basically around then, and with court order, did they specify 12-step meetings you have to go to or any kind of recovery based on the case?

SPEAKER_00 52:16

They said they said any kind of recovery, but since I couldn't drive, my I'm relying on my parents and they were mere by these meetings, so I walked to one of them, and then the other one they brought me to, and I just want to get them done for the paperwork. And that's what people do. I just can't take the whole like this being shoved down your throat of like you have to do this, so you have to do that. And then these people think that they're like spiritual advisors in some way, you know. That's the part that's really that that's what's what bothers me. It's and then it's like these canned, you know, responses to things. It's like you'll say something like you reach out to someone, you're like, Hey, I'm really not doing well. And then it's just like they come back at you with this canned response. It's like that doesn't help me at all.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

They are in a script. They're like, Well, pray, do 10 Hail Marys, do this prayer, like call three other alcoholics. Yeah, it's like you're like, Oh, so you just sent me a list of chores.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Yeah, more shit to do that's gonna overwhelm me even more and make you Yeah, make you feel worse.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

And I more like because you know, sometimes you don't want to talk to three people you barely know when you're feeling really shitty. Exactly. Exactly. And also I notice a lot of people who are like, I don't buy into this, I don't want to do this. Like they and then finally they kind of do it. It's because people they're like, Well, yeah, in Alcoholics Anonymous, even if you're if you're all do anything if you're desperate enough, including believe in God. I'm like, so you guys know how do you guys realize how fucking manipulative and fucked up that is? Like you're like, oh, you we're literally just making sure you break down as much as possible too.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

Yeah. So that's why I'm like, no, I can't I'm sorry, I just can't do it. I can't do it.

SPEAKER_02 54:05

Do you feel like there's like a spectrum in recovery, like a sobriety? Because some people, you know, they're very like, if you smoke weed, you're not sober. If you have taken psilocybin or mushrooms, then you're not sober. Do you do you agree? Do you feel like you have to fit into that?

SPEAKER_00 54:21

No, I think I think whatever like works whatever works for you? Yeah. I'm not gonna sit here and and put parameters on people's sobriety. It's what works for them when I know what works for me.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

You need to take your SSRIs, take your fucking SSRIs and so you don't do harm to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:43

Uh what would you like others to know who are either active members or dipping their toe in, uh, who either are reticent about the meetings or are super all of the above, like anything that their experience with these meetings are, what would you like to tell them?

SPEAKER_00 55:03

It's hard for me because I don't want to ever steer somebody any which way, but the right way in their sobriety. And I don't know for sure what the right way for them is. I know for me what isn't the right way. So what I can say to them is hey, what didn't work for me was going to meetings. So that's what I would say. I'd say, hey, go with an open mind, see how you feel. But don't feel like a failure if it doesn't speak to you. Because it does not make you a failure in your sobriety if you don't feel like that is the place for you.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

That's really good feedback for anyone who is exploring their process with sobriety. No notes on that one, damn. Yeah. So there you go. What does life look for like for you now? How are you today?

SPEAKER_00 56:00

I feel stronger than I I think I ever have. Even though today was kind of like I woke up like angry. I don't know. But I feel really sad.

SPEAKER_02 56:11

I wake up to I'm still, it's like almost 11 years over, and I'm like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 56:15

God damn it. Yeah, the sun's out. I hate it. I know, but uh something has clicked. My work, my job, like my team at work, we work so well together. Um my parents and I are getting along so well. Um my best friend of 38 years, and I she's really more like a sister. She has always held space for me at every single stage of my life. That that friendship has gotten so much stronger just in the last few months alone. Great. You know, her kids, I I have to say, her oldest daughter alone um is one of the biggest reasons why I'm still here today. Um, you know, she was born very early, and I watched her fight for her life, you know, and I look at her now and she's incredible. I mean, anything she does, she's good at. And she, you know, she's just this bright light, you know, and it's like, and her other two kids too are amazing. And then um, you know, I have a hockey tournament I'm going out to California for. Um, and then I'm gonna start actually playing in a league in Rhode Island um this for the summer. So I'm looking forward to all of it, you know, and just like getting out there again and meeting people and just like not being a hermit anymore, you know, because I was really I was so down such a long time. And it's like I just don't want to do that anymore, you know?

SPEAKER_02 57:45

Yeah, no, I can't really but yeah, I mean having stuff to look forward to is like part that's how life is joyful and you have a lot to look forward to.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Yeah, so that's what I'm that's what I'm looking forward to. I I think things are good. You know, the the job front really does help. I mean, having yeah, and I you know, I'm s I know that right now you're I really hope you can find something. I I know that that's that's hard and yeah, it's hard. Um yeah, um I that's yeah um it is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 58:19

I'll I'll be fine.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

Yeah, life. It's like yeah, everything, you know, it's like all right, what's next, you know? So for me, um a lot of it is like not trying to anticipate too much and just trying to stay present because if I start anticipating too much, I'm gonna start the the OCD crap, you know. Yeah, and that's where I have to constantly go to is like staying away from going into those patterns again because that's exactly as soon as I start doing that, I'm gonna start drinking again.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

Yeah, so exactly I don't think people really understand, like they don't those intrusive thoughts are just you just want them to stop.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Yeah, people like, oh, it's so cute, like you like your stuff neat. And that's not no, it's not.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

Come on, come on, do some research. So, do you want me to plug your Instagram? Sure, pulled it up to follow Darcy and her hockey and um sobriety journey. Her uh account is rinkrat r-in-k risk. That's rink rinkrat406 on Instagram, and you can follow there. And uh, it's been really fucking fun talking to you. And so thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure. So thanks for being the first. Have a question or story you want addressed on the podcast? Send it to recovery froma pod at pm.me. That's recovery from aapod at pm.me, and I may read and respond to it in an upcoming episode. For show notes, please go to patreon.com slash C slash in recovery. That's patreon.com slash C slash in recovery.