The Things We Don’t Say
Honest stories and reflections that uncover what’s happening beneath the surface of ordinary life—because sometimes the words come later.
The Things We Don’t Say
I Need You to Know...
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After almost 12 years together, you’d think Trey and I would know exactly what the other person needs by now. Newsflash: we don’t.
In this episode, Trey joins me for a conversation about what happens when “you should know” quietly becomes the standard in our closest relationships. We talk about marriage, counseling, friendship, parenting, teenagers, conflict, and the very large elephants we sometimes hope will just leave the room on their own.
Sometimes the thing a relationship needs most is also the thing we’re most uncomfortable saying. What if being known has less to do with someone knowing exactly what we need—and more to do with what we’re willing to say out loud?
Okay, take two. Would it be take two? Probably be like-
treyTake 15.
nicoleTake 15. 'Cause at the start of this episode, I really hadn't done a guest thing yet
treySo I was your, your first guest.
nicoleYou were- And
treynow I'm your-
nicoleBut your kids were the first published episode.
treyI was your first guest, and now I am your third
nicoleHow are you gonna talk?
treyWhat do you mean how am I gonna talk? I'm gonna talk like this.
nicoleI just, I don't want you to make my editing very difficult. I'm already stressed.
treyOkay. I, I think I'm good. Is this okay?
nicoleWe're gonna go with it 'cause we've already recorded a few times.
treyOkay.
nicoleWho are you?
treyI am your husband.
nicoleOkay, I wanna play a game with you because you're my husband.
treyOkay, here we go.
nicoleOkay. It's not that kind of game. I'm just kidding, okay?
treySo this isn't after hours?
nicoleNicole Viold's After Dark. Okay, I'm just kidding. Chill out, everybody. All right. I want you to say the first thing that comes to mind when I say something, anything. Okay?
treyOkay.
nicoleOkay. So when I say I'm fine, what does that actually mean?
treyThat means you're actually not fine.
nicoleOkay. What if I say I'm almost ready?
treyThat means we have probably a good six hours before we're gonna be leaving to go wherever we're going.
nicoleSix?
treyOkay, maybe five and a half.
nicoleOkay. Weird. Okay, uh, it's your turn. You can just do it.
treyOkay.
nicoleSix hours.
treyI looked everywhere.
nicoleOkay, that's easy. It's right in front of you.
treyAll right, I got another one.
nicoleOkay.
treyNothing's wrong.
nicoleHmm. Then why do you look so mad? Oh, okay. I'm on my way.
treyThat means we probably are about, or you're about 30 minutes away from getting in the car.
nicole30- To- I think that this game is adding time to actual truth.
treyAll right, next time you say you're on your way, I'm gonna time you.
nicoleUsually I'm on my way is like I'm walking out the door of my bathroom.
treyTo go find your shoes.
nicoleAt least. Okay. Hmm. I don't care where we eat.
treyThat means that I better decide where we're going ASAP or you're gonna get so hangry that you're gonna wanna eat my head off.
nicoleHmm. I think you're kind of right. When I say that, I actually think that you need to know if I'm in the mood for Mexican or Thai.
treyYeah, but how do I know if you don't tell me?
Hey, thanks so much for being here, and welcome to The Things We Don't Say. I'm Nicole. If you're like me, most of us move through our days without realizing how much is actually happening beneath the surface. I get it. I get the conversations, the disappointments, a laugh around the dinner table, or any other moment that seems ordinary. But here's the thing, there's something deeper, and it's time we take a closer look. Around here, we tell stories, we ask better questions, and we look for purpose and humor and hope hidden in ordinary, everyday life, because sometimes the smallest moments end up changing us the most. So let's talk about the things we don't say.
nicoleHere's what I've realized, in really the heart of this episode, after almost 12 years together, there are absolutely things we know about each other without asking. That's part of intimacy and the cool part of being in a, in a tight-knit relationship with somebody, and you learn somebody. But there are also those moments where one of us thinks you should know. You should know what I need. You should know why I'm upset. You should know what I meant when I said I'm fine. And one of the biggest things we've learned in counseling is, no, sometimes you actually need to say it. So today I have my husband with me. We... How long have we been together?
treyHmm. Hmm,
nicolelike 11 years, almost 12?
treyYeah, almost 12.
nicoleAlmost 12. 11 years, 10 months, 14 days, 32 seconds. Just kidding. You're usually way better at that than me. But, um, okay, what's, what's something about me that you really can read without me having to say anything?
treyYeah, I think... I would say it's probably pretty obvious when you're upset or something's bothering you or stressing you out. Um, but oftentimes I don't know exactly what that is. But it- it's pretty obvious and, you know, I love you, but you don't really do a great job of hiding your, your feelings or emotions.
nicoleUh, yeah, I guess I'm pretty transparent with that, so. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What's something you still cannot read after all this time?
treyDo you really want me to answer that?
nicoleYes.
treyOkay. Um, let's see, what you want for your birthday, what you want for Christmas- Gifts what you want for your half birthday, for the kids' birthday. No, in, in reality, like, um, yes, I know your love language is words of affirmation, but you also love gifts. And so-
nicoleYeah
treyoftentimes I don't know what those gifts are.
nicoleSo, okay, so for my birthday, so s- this is something that actually comes up a lot in counseling, and he, like, gets very anxious and stressed out around my birthday, Christmas, Mother's Day. Like, he, he probably would say yes, like, Valentine's Day, my half birthday, my three-quarters birthday, which is, like, actually a joke. But anyways, but for my birthday, so I gave him three different options because I didn't know what he was gonna do, and this is the growth that's taken place in counseling. And so I made three different lists for him, and then each one had, like, different ideas. And so one of them was, "Well, if we're gonna go out and you're gonna do a big party with my friends, then these are the people that I want you to invite." And so I emailed him this list of people. And then I was like, "Well, if you're gonna surprise me and take me on a trip, then these are some of the places that I would like to go. And if we go here, I think we should take the kids, but if we go here, let's not take the kids." And then of course, I do like gifts, and so if you're going to spoil me rotten, then get me something, like, these are all of the things that I want.
treyAnd I got her it all. Every single thing. Except for the trip.
nicoleExcept for the trip.
treyThat comes later.
nicoleI was not looking forward to my birthday at all, and I think you knew that. And so, I don't know, what was your level of anxiety?
treyUm, it was pretty high. I would say I was extremely anxious. Those people that know you know that this was a milestone birthday. And so I didn't want to, uh, I did not wanna get it wrong. And so this year I was definitely pretty anxious, um, pretty nervous about it, so.
nicoleYeah. Well, and it was a surprise. Like, so much of it was a surprise. The party bus-
treyMm-hmm
nicolewas a surp- well, it was because you got it all.
treyCorrect.
nicoleAnd it was, it
treywas- the, the big green, uh, machine was a surprise?
nicoleYeah, that party bus was a big surprise. And then the, like, the treadmill- Mm-hmm was pretty a surprise. I w- like, I was expecting it, but the way that it arrived and everything, that was pretty cool. Um-
treyAnd the sign sitting behind us.
nicoleYes. I need to hang that up in my office. Mm-hmm. He, he worked really hard with the girls and came up with 40 reasons why they love me, and there's pictures of me with the girls. I need to hang that in my office in here, so yeah. Um, do you ever feel like I expect you to know what I need without telling you?
treyShort answer, yes.
nicoleOh, geez. Yes. Okay, what's the longer answer?
treyWell, I don't know. There's so many. Um, yeah, I would say, you know, examples or scenarios, situations, there's just so many, um... You know, I just feel like-
nicoleI- like, have I put that pressure on you? Or have I put you in that position? 'Cause-
treyNo, I think I've put the pressure on myself. You know, after 11- almost 11 years of marriage and 12 years of being together, like, I should, I should know or I feel like I should know. Um, you know, because what kind of husband would I be after this long of being together if I didn't know- no, I don't think you have. I think it's, like I said, I think it's mostly self-inflicted and, we've been together a long time, so.
nicoleYeah. No, that's a really good point because people don't usually talk about the bad or hard parts of marriage, yet we all know that they're there. And so when I hear you saying, like, "Well, I've been married for this long and I still don't know what my wife needs," that's probably something people who are, you know, 30 years into their marriage and they're still saying or maybe, unless they have the superpower of knowing how to read each other's minds. Um, yeah.
treyYeah. No, that's true.
nicoleThat's one of the, like, biggest lessons that I've learned in counseling because it was a big part of when we started counseling. Why doesn't Trey see how hard this is for me? Or why is this so emotional for me? I had some postpartum stuff going on, and it was this realization that I couldn't expect you to understand, um, because you weren't in my mind, you weren't in my heart, and so that's been a big opportunity for growth over the last couple years that we've been doing it, and we are getting better at it. Do you do that to me where you expect me to know something? Like, where you just think, "Nicole, just tell me what you want." Yeah. I think sometimes, especially because we've been married for so long, I, um, I think, you know, probably unintentionally put that expectation on, on you. Like, if something's on your mind, and something's bothering you, I, I can tell that something is bothering you. You don't really do a good job of, hiding your emotions. And so yeah, I wish sometimes, you would just come out and tell me what's going on and not expect me to know. Um, you know, we have a pretty busy household, and a bunch of kids, your mom living with us, and you're homeschooling, so there's potentially a lot of things that might have happened in a day that are stressing you out, and, uh- Mm-hmm and I don't... You know, for me, sometimes I don't wanna guess what it is or I, don't wanna think it's something and then maybe it wasn't and then maybe add more stress onto you- Mm-hmm if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I wish- Yeah oftentimes I wish, yeah, you would just come out and tell me, and we can- That's good. You know, 'cause, like, when we started counseling, that was the missing piece for us, was, like, that, that in between. And, that's when we, we started doing, uh, Mickey, that's our counselor, his recommendation of, "You should be doing this once a week." Well, it wasn't happening once a week. And so it was like, "Listen, if you guys can even just get five minutes in in the morning, you're gonna, hit those touch points." And that's why counseling has been so good for us, because it forces us to really think through and express what we're feeling. Or I can't speak for you, but what I'm feeling. And then sometimes when I do that, what you're feeling just naturally comes out, too. And there's always this open line of communication because we're doing it every day Yeah, no, I, I agree. I agree with that, and I think, it's definitely something that, he's helped us with. I think a lot of times in marriages, or at least this was... I don't know if it's something that I witnessed or that I heard or saw, but, obviously, we go our separate ways during the day, whether it's work, whether, you know, whatever you're doing. Sometimes I've, in the past, think, you hold in whatever it is that's bothering you, and then you sh- you know, get together for an hour a day or whatever. But I think being consistent each morning has, or each day, has helped us. Mm. Like, just that, like, five minutes of- Mm-hmm "Hey, here's what's going on. Here's what I have going on today." That way when we are together later, it's more an intentional time, like, where we can- Yeah, and it almost gives us more substance to what we're talking about. Like, "Oh, well, how did that conversation go with- Mm-hmm. Yeah this person?" Or, and it makes us really check in and do the relationship piece- Mm-hmm of it. Because here's what we don't say, wanting to be known isn't the problem. Part of loving somebody is learning them. Like, I can't really do that. The problem comes when we turn someone's ability to anticipate our need into a test of whether they love us or not. Because I know that you love me. There's no question in that. You got me a party bus and a treadmill. I don't need you to read my mind to know that you love me, right? Yeah, you just need words of affirmation- and gifts. Um, no, I, no, I agree. I think that's where counseling has really helped us, with this whole perception, going into it guys are supposed to be, these strong ones, and protect their wives and their kids, which is, which is 100% true. Like, as men, you know, we are supposed to be the protector, and be the strong ones, but being strong is also being able to share your emotions. I mean, God's given us emotions for a reason. Um, and I think, the sign of a strong man or strong person is being honest and being truthful, and that comes with, having these emotions and, and sharing them as well. Yeah. Well, and it's something that we try and teach the kids too. Mm-hmm. Like, it's, like you said, it's okay to have feelings. God's given us those feelings and emotions. But it's how we need to communicate that. And so I really like that you touched on that part about guys, and just the way that we're wired. Like, not every relationship probably has that mindset of, "Oh, I need..." Especially, like, for women in this day and age, like, "I need you to protect me." But the, but the whole way that God has created men is to feel like a leader, and that's important to acknowledge. So then when you add the component of, "Well, I, I need to be strong," it almost conflicts with, like, the vulnerability piece, right? Obviously I think most people know, we have four girls, and that's something that, I know we and I've tried to, inflict and teach s- teach our kids is, um, like you said, you know, God's given us feelings. We need to, like, we need to use them obviously. But use them, you know, positively. But, like, we have these emotions and feelings, so it's okay and you should, share them. I want our girls to see me, in a healthy way share my emotions and feelings. Like, I think, with my dad, um, growing up I think I only saw him cry one time. And it's when our, it's when our dog died. Um- Yeah, that's so, like it's- Yeah we also have to acknowledge it's a generational thing too. Mm-hmm. Um, be- I mean, obviously my dad was, like, two generations above me. Like, my dad was a lot older. Um, where he was, like, the age of Trey's grandad. Mm-hmm. But even more so then, it was this very, like, stone cold, stoic thing. Yet as l- like, cultures change and all of that, it's very acceptable now even for dads to be more involved. Mm-hmm. And so, like, that's one thing, but then you add a dad who's very in touch with his emotions, and that's, very uncomfortable for some people. Yeah, no, I agree. But yeah, I mean, I, I don't try to cry on purpose. But I want, I want our girls to see me, like, "Hey, it's okay. I'm sad. This, whatever it is made me sad. Like, it's okay if I cry. It's okay if I, you know, go to my room and scream into the pillow. That is okay." Especially 'cause you don't wanna keep those feelings inside and blow up later, so. Yeah. Um, now but, and, like, you're right, uh like, for us that's part of that five minutes in the morning that we do, because it's an opportunity for us to really, get things out before we allow them to fester. Because, you know, if, if that's the case and you're not checking in and something's happened a week ago, you've had, you know, then there's this anger or resentment of, "Well, you've had a week to figure out what's wrong- and what's happening, but I also haven't told you," right? Mm-hmm. And so, like, those five minutes in the morning are really helpful. So I have this really good friend, and we had kinda, like, this deeper conversation earlier this week with, like, a couple other friends. And as we were You know, like, as I was debriefing the conversation the next morning, I was like, "You know, I wonder if that made her uncomfortable. And so I need to reach out to her today and just do a check-in." Like, that makes such a healthy friendship. And it's a really good model. Like, "Hey, this happened. Are we cool?" And I tell you what, like, nobody has ever come back to me and been like, "Why did you do that?" Right? Mm-hmm. And, and like- Yeah because you're putting yourself in this place, like, "If I did something wrong, I wanna own it." And I don't know, I'm just so huge on accountability. Like- Yeah but they have to be respectful conversations and this realization of like, "Hey, I'm, I'm, I have to put myself in this level where I can make things better." Mm-hmm. "Where I, where I'm showing that I want things to be better so I can be in this, like, healthy relationship or, or friendship with said person." when we let things fester, we get to a point where, it's like, "Well, it's not fair that I had to tell you this," right? Mm-hmm. So in our house that happens. "Oh, I, I wanted you to pick a... I left, I left those shoes on the stairs right in front of you so you could pick them up on your way upstairs," instead of me just saying like, "Hey, do you mind picking this up?" Right? Like, I just wanna be known, and I, I think that's what we're really talking about. Being known doesn't remove our responsibility to make ourselves knowable. And obviously, like, we're talking about our marriage, but like we just said and explained, like, it's the same thing with your friends where you really can reach out to your friends. Um, I have, I have some teenagers listening too, that listen to this. And so what do you say to them?
treyYeah, I think, um, you know, obviously we don't have teenagers yet. But what I would tell them, especially when, when it comes to, communicating with your parents, you know, your parents were teenagers at one point also. Like, I know it's hard for teenagers to think or remember that. Um, but we've been in your shoes before, and, if you have something on your mind or you have something that, you know, you wanna talk to your parents about, tell them. Talk to them. Put it out there, um, because I don't know a single parent that is not going to sit down and listen to their kid when they come to them with whatever's on their mind Um, now-
nicoleBut you have to come to them
treyyou have to come to them. Now, I will caveat that with their response may not be what you wanna hear.
nicoleYeah.
treyBecause, you know, we are adults, we've gone through experiences, so of-
nicoleBut we don't have it all together we
treydon't have it all to- Like,
nicolethat's
treyimportant to know no,
nicole100%
treywe don't.
nicoleLike, we, we, yeah.
treyAnd, um, but yeah, w- as parents, as adults, we don't know what's going on in your mind unless you tell us. And I think it's, it's really difficult for teenagers in today's day and age. I mean, you lived through COVID, you're living through
nicoleYeah,
treyall this- social media. Like, I, I cannot imagine being a teenager in 2026.
nicoleYeah.
treyLike, it's, it's
nicoledifficult. Here's something, you wanna know, like, something really interesting though that has not changed? 'Cause I started working with teenagers in 2004. Um, teenagers, like, I can see it, you don't have to tell me this, but I can see, teenagers desperately want to be understood- Mm but sometimes give zero information to the people who love them. And that, like, part, I, that's just part of growing up, is learning that it's okay to be vulnerable. Now, I've also worked with teenagers who have totally gotten this, and actually, like, my next episode is gonna touch on, like, why I think that is. Being deeply known doesn't mean never having to explain yourself, right? And, like, I gave that example about my friendship. And, there's, like, endless resources about communication in marriage, but nobody schedules, like, a quarterly friendship meeting. It's always like something happens, someone gets hurt, nobody talks about it. And then, and then all of a sudden, and this could go back to, you know, teenagers or younger people who are listening to this, like, then pop up on Instagram like, "Hey, girl," or, "Happy birthday!" You know? Or you're sitting in the same room and everything looks normal, but it isn't. So how many relationships are damaged not only by what happened, but by what never happened afterwards? And that's something we don't say, right? Like, relationships get damaged because nothing happens afterwards.
treyYeah, no, that is, you know, that's a good point.
nicoleUm I wanna look on the opposite end, though, about, you People who've been married for 30 or 40 years. My parents were married for a little over 30 years when my dad passed away, but he'd been married before. And one thing that he always said, and it chokes me up every time, and it's also why we started counseling, because he told us at our wedding, "Stay ahead of your marriage." And when things, when we get in that rut, that's something that we always go back to is, like, are we ahead of our marriage right now?
treyMm-hmm.
nicoleUm, and, like, your parents now are at 45 years? 45. 35?
treyNo,
nicole45. 45. 45 years will be this year, right? Mm-hmm.
trey45. I think so,
nicoleyeah. Um, and, you know, knowing, like, we kinda touched on it a little bit, knowing somebody for a long time doesn't mean you're finished knowing them. People change so much, not just, like, obviously not just physically, but what they might have needed when your dad was out on the field-
treyMm-hmm
nicoleyour mom back then to now, where they love each other so well, the needs, it doesn't mean there's no more needs there. It just is maybe now the need is I need to be more curious about what the need is.
treyYeah, I mean, especially, I think, with- Couples that are married for so long and, you know, if you have kids, like a lot of times, like the need for 18 years- Mm-hmm is, you know, naturally revolves around the kids. So once-
nicoleYeah
treyonce they're gone, I mean, it is basically, I would imagine, starting over
nicoleRight
treybecause you change so much. I mean, we've changed, I think, a lot since we've had kids and, you know, since we got married, and you're continuing to-
nicoleYeah
treyto change each day. So yeah, it's like basically like relearning, and I would... From what I've seen with couples who are empty nesters, like it's almost like dating again.
nicoleYeah.
treyI actually- Which is
nicolereally
treycool
nicoleyou know that YouTuber? I really like him. His name's John Delony, and he's very, very frank, almost like abrasive, and he just gets to it, which imagine that. I love listening to him- Mm-hmm 'cause he just says it. Um, but there, he just had this reel out not that long ago about, hey, your marriage before you had kids, like that's over. That marriage is over.
treyMm-hmm.
nicoleAnd I was like, "Ooh, that's so harsh." And then he's like, "And then the marriage when you had those toddlers, that's over." Yeah. The marriage now, like I've had so many different marriages. And maybe the marriage with toddlers was really hard, but the marriage, like with teenagers was harder or whatever. But that doesn't mean it has to stick there. It's that point of we need to talk about this, and it, it does get harder, so.
treyYeah, and I don't... I mean, I agree, but I don't think it has to... You know, I think some of you hearing, oh, it's over, meaning like, oh, you're never gonna like have alone time with your- Right with your spouse. That's definitely not, I know, and I know that's not what you were saying.
nicoleYeah. He's a strong Christian man. So. It's just that phase.
treyYeah.
nicoleYeah.
treyBut what I was gonna say too is that, I mean, yes, that part, uh, is over, but you have to be intentional about- Exactly having one-on-one time with your spouse. You know, I think we do a, a really good job of, or we have in the past couple years of setting aside date nights- Mm-hmm um, you know, when all the kids are at their act- Well, and when they're at dance
nicolewhen they were at
treydance previously, and now they're doing other activities too..
nicoleI don't know. I've been in relationships where there's an enormous elephant sitting in the room and everybody knows it, but somehow the strategy is just, like, "Well, don't look at it." Mm-hmm. And it's really irritating because maybe it's that somebody did something hurtful or that trust was broken, or maybe there was this huge misunderstanding. And because nobody talks about it, there's this assumption that eventually it just goes away, but that's not how it works for me. So, like, silence is not gonna make me trust you again. Silence is not gonna make the hurt disappear. And sometimes silence, it just gives hurt more time to grow.
treyYeah, and elephants are big, so They, they're big and slow, so if you don't get up and push the elephant, for lack of a better term, it's gonna stick around or stand up and crush you. So, you know- Mm-hmm don't ignore the elephant. Like, it's, it's big and there for a reason, so the sooner you address it, the sooner that elephant will gradually get up and, and walk out. If that makes sense.
nicoleWell, yeah, 'cause avoidance can feel easier because you're hoping the problem is gonna disappear.
treyCorrect.
nicoleBut oftentimes it doesn't.
treyYeah, and I think that's what I oftentimes suffer with a lot, or struggle with, is problems just not thinking about it and believing that if I don't address it or don't think about it, it will just go away. But it doesn't. It never does.
nicoleMm.
treyIt just sits there and builds up and builds up, and then bad things happen.
nicoleI think there are three different kinds of silence. We both genuinely let it go, and that's okay. Not everything requires a conversation. Two is that we both know it's there, but nobody wants to touch it, and that's what we kind of touched on a little bit, that avoidance. And three, one person doesn't believe there's anything there to address. Maybe it's more of a denial. Maybe it's genuinely a different perception of what actually happened. But here's what I've learned in all this: silence and peace are not the same thing
treyYeah. I mean, especially like when you're in any type of relationship, like if one person sees a problem, there is a problem Like, um, and it may not be like a huge problem, but there is a problem. And in any, like I said, any type of relationship, um, it's gotta be a two-way street. So, you know, with us, like if I see something, like I should feel comfortable being able to come to you, um, to work it out, and for you to be open-minded, even if you didn't think that was an issue or a problem, if that makes sense.
nicoleMm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's also the way that we're wired, where though I need to think about something, then I just, like once I do and I've processed it, I just cut straight to the point, where you prefer more to keep the peace. And biblically, there's a difference between peacemaker and a peacekeeper, because Jesus tells us in the Bible, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they're called the sons of God." Um, like a peacemaker actively steps into tension and resolves conflict Um, you know, like in search of, like that reconciliation. Whereas a peacekeeper will avoid it to keep the peace. And so it really is not the same thing.
treyCorrect.
nicoleYeah. Uh, it's like, uh, do you remember when Hannah was at dance and she'd been really hurt There was like another little girl who was spending a lot of time with another one. She was crying. She had hurt feelings. And so we had said, "Hey, like you need to... Like, if this friendship really means so much to you, then it's okay to go and tell her, like, you miss hanging out with her and being friends with her." And so she went to her and, you know, she told her. And this little girl, I actually like reached out to the parents and ended up, like I waited until they were together. And it was like months after it had happened. Because I thought it was so important to acknowledge what great parenting was happening for this little girl, because she was so open to what Hannah had told her with her hurt feelings. And she just had this beautiful display of what empathy was. Because when Hannah told her, like, "I really miss hanging out with you," she like sat with Hannah and cried knowing that Hannah was hurting. Mm-hmm. And honestly, like watching a child do that made me think, like, "Why is it so hard for adults to do that?"
treyYeah, no. And I think that's, a perfect example of kind of what I had been saying, is, you know, that was, you know, Hannah went and talked to this, to her friend, this little girl, like because Hannah had a problem. Like she had hurt feelings because of something that had happened. But that little girl Probably didn't know anything, that she had done anything. And so Hannah could have gone on just ignoring it and keeping that inside. But that's something that we've, I think we've done a good job of teaching our girls, um, is if you, if something happens to you or you see something, go make it right.
nicoleMm-hmm.
treyUm, and so she did. She went and, you know, spoke to her friend and, and again, the, the girl reacted exactly how we would have hoped.
nicoleYeah.
treyUm, but if Hannah didn't approach her and tell her this, who knows what would have happened, you know? Hannah may have carried that inside of her for, still to- today, like-
nicoleMm-hmm yeah, I mean, and maybe that's why adults don't do it, just, like, life experience teaches us to be on guard. Mm-hmm. It's kind of, it's sad. Like, we're scared of, like, that defensiveness. I don't think a good relationship means nobody ever gets defensive. Like, in this particular case, the little girl was not defensive, which was very sweet, and it, and it was really affirming for Hannah to see, "Oh, if I do express my feelings, I'm not gonna get shut down." Mm-hmm. Again, it's not the case every time. Like, I get defensive, you get defensive. Sometimes somebody tells us we've hurt them, and our first thought is "Wait, what? That's not at all what happened." Mm-hmm. And the question is what we do with it after that first reaction. Like, well, can I be curious about this, or I should listen to them, or that's not how I remember it, but I want you to understand how I experienced it. Um, can I care that you were hurt even if hurting you wasn't my intention? And that's the repair. So there's this distinction, and I think that's why there's such a big difference between creating conflict and acknowledging the conflict that's already there. You know, we, like, we talked about the elephant didn't put itself in the room. Mm-hmm. It was already there. We're just finally willing to take a look at it.
treyCorrect. Because those are s- like, in reality, like, those issues, I mean, they're so minor, but the sooner you start, you know, doing that and, and trying to make things right and having those conversations and addressing the elephant in the room, at a young age, when you get older and then the problems and issues are worse, you've already kind of gotten that, or I feel like they've gotten that experience and-
nicoleMm-hmm
treyand practice of doing it so that when they're presented with bigger challenges and issues, um, it should make it hopefully easier to, to deal with.
nicoleMm-hmm
treyto figure out.
nicoleYeah. It's just like the other, like, my last episode was, um, like, the habit of celebrating other people. It really is a habit that you have to work on. Mm-hmm. And the more that you do it, the more that it comes naturally.
treyMm-hmm.
nicoleAnd again, we've seen that in the two and a half years that we've been doing counseling that we're able to sit and just say what we need. Mm-hmm. So I don't know. After almost 12 years, do you think we're getting better at it?
treyYeah, I mean, I would say if you had asked me this two and a half years ago, I, I probably would have said no. But I think counseling has really helped. Um, not that we, I don't think we had any big problems, but I think counseling is really good because-
nicoleWell, it's us staying ahead of our marriage
treystaying ahead, and it's- and it's good to have, that set intentional time that, that we have with Mickey. Um, and have, you know, somebody on the outside listening and then, um... I mean, he's even said, like, some of our conversations, like, "Hey, you guys are doing really well." Mm. Like our, just our conversations and our, our dialogue and communication- Yeah has gotten a lot better.
nicoleWell, and I do wanna say, 'cause I don't wanna give this false hope. Like, there have been times where we've come and I've been like, "This is not working." Like, like, "I don't wanna do this anymore. It seems like a waste." But we're still showing up.
treyYeah. And, and- I agree. But when you've said that, like, that needed to be said.
nicoleMm.
treySo, it's part of healthy communication. yes, sometimes you had started it off like that, but by the end of our session, whether it was with Mickey or if it was just a conversation we were having, at the end of it, I think we were at a lot better place.
nicoleMm-hmm. And it doesn't, it's not always, like, in the moment a better place. Mm-hmm. You have to let
treyit
nicoleseason and marinate a little bit, but we get there.
treyYes.
nicoleYeah. What's something about, me now that you understand that you didn't understand when we got married?
treyWow, putting me on the spot. Um- I think I would say back to, like, your, that you hide your emotions. Like, um, you don't like being vulnerable, but you don't like crying.
nicoleYou said earlier that I don't hide my emotions very
treywell. Well, no, I'm saying you don't, so- that you don't, that you're emotional. Mm-hmm. Like, the one thing I would say is that you don't like being vulnerable, and I know that more now. So when you are vulnerable, I know that it's, that it's hard for you, and that, um-
nicoleMm-hmm. Like, it's gotten to a point at that marker where, like, ooh, this is... Yeah.
treyYeah. And then it- you're gonna need some time after that to kind of pick yourself back up because it does take a lot out of you to- Mm to get to that s- part, that stage where you are, are vulnerable.
nicoleMm-hmm.
treyAnd you don't like crying.
nicoleWhich is really funny 'cause, like, the last few episodes something has always broken me down, which is-
treyMm-hmm
nicoleal- I'm so thankful for this space and people who are affirming of that, so.
treyYeah, it ta- it takes a lot for you to, for you to cry. Mm. Um, which I think is pretty cool. Um,
nicoleI think that goes back to the generational thing, honestly- Yeah that we, like... Yeah, maybe. I don't know.
treyYeah, I, I don't cry either, so. That's... No, I'm kidding.
nicoleI'm glad our kids see it from one of us. Like- Yes but even, I think even our kids are learning it too.
treyMm-hmm.
nicoleThat if mom cries, like, this has, this has gotten over the top, gone too far.
treyMm-hmm.
nicoleThat they realize, like, ooh, okay, dial it back.
treyYes.
nicoleWhat's something you're still learning?
treyWhat you, what gifts you want. No, I think we've just ch- like, for the better, I think we've grown together. But we've changed so much. So it's like, I don't know what gifts you want, what food, what mood you're gonna be in for food and to eat. 'Cause you, you're not like me, where you just kind of get in, you know what you want, and that's what I'm gonna order when we go out to restaurants, the same thing. I don't like change, versus you like to experience new things. So it's-
nicoleWhich actually has not changed at all.
treyNo, it hasn't. Yeah. It's a cool journey. Just like last night, we went out for dinner, and, um, I n- looked at the menu, and I knew right away what I wanted. I didn't tell you. But like you go through everything and like, you know, basically p- play tennis or ping pong in your mind- between different things. And it, and it's cool 'cause I never know what, kinda what mood you're gonna be in. It sounds so silly, but I don't know. I like it. I like that I married somebody who's a foodie.
nicoleAw. What do you hope we're still asking each other 20 years from now?
treyI think You know, I like it when you do this, and I'm sure we're still gonna be doing it, but I hope we do, is, I would say almost every day you're asking me, like, "Why do you love me?" Or, "When did you fall in love with me yesterday?" Um, because this is, a life commitment and a journey. Like, there's gonna be d- like, every day there's gonna be something different- Mm that's gonna make me, fall more in love with you. And so 20 years from now I hope, you know, you're still asking me th- that question.
nicoleSee? And every episode something gets me to- What
treydo you hope-
nicoleTo make me vulnerable and start crying in an episode.
treyWhat do you hope that, you know, I'm still asking you in 20 years?
nicoleUh. I hope you are still falling in love with me in 20 years from now, that we haven't just ignored the things that need to be said. Um, I probably hope that you're initiating it more, like what needs to be said, and that I don't have to dig for it.
treyYeah.
nicoleYeah.
treyI think I've done a better job of that-
nicoleYes
treylately. But yeah. Yeah. Communication is not my strong suit. I don't think
nicolethat it's not your strong suit at all. I think it's just, it's, it really is a habit-
treyMm-hmm
nicolethat we both have to make. Because, like, my fault in that is, m- like, just as much as sometimes, like, I'm not to that point. Like, one of the things that comes up is, like, we have limited time, and so I wanna dive in deep right away. Mm-hmm. And you're not there yet. And so for me, it's like, well, I have to sit in the, in the, like, more shallow moments- Mm-hmm to get to that point, and then it just comes out naturally. Yeah. It'll- Like this, this like podcast thing was almost... And it's probably why God was like, "No, come back and re-record," because- we just dove right into it. And then we were able to come back a few days later and- Mm-hmm like really get to the nitty-gritty of it. Yeah.
treyI think it goes to our love languages too. Like, you like words of affirmation, and, um, I like quality time. So I could literally just sit here, not say a word, and listen to you do your podcast- and I'm being fulfilled.
nicoleAnd I'm looking at him like, "Why are you still here?" That, that... Like, I have a hard time with that, with you, with my mom, with the kids. And like, I just... Like, they're just sitting by me.
treyMm-hmm. And I'm
nicolelike, "What do you want?" Like, "Don't just sit there. Talk to me." Yeah. Uh, and for, and for, like, the other piece of it is it doesn't have to be marriage. It's just looking at any relationship and thinking like, "What is the longevity that I want in this relationship? Do I want this depth forever? Do I want this friend forever?" And then that should be the gauge of, well, then I'm willing to put in the work, 'cause I want this person in my life forever. They're a really good friend to me. Or- Mm-hmm the kids with their- Mm siblings, we try, that's why we try and teach them like, "Hey, you guys need to try and work it out before you come to us." So they're getting in that habit of- Okay you know, like that depth in a relationship. Yeah. Because everybody wants to be known, by our spouse, our parents, our friends, our kids. And there's just something so incredibly special about somebody knowing exactly what you need before you ever have to ask it, but that can't become the standard by which we measure whether we're loved or not. Then it's easier to come and say, "I need you." Mm-hmm. "You hurt me. I'm not okay. I want you there. I don't want advice, I just need you to listen." What else? "Something happened between us, and I don't want to pretend that it didn't." Mm. Being known doesn't mean never having to explain yourself.
treyMm-hmm. Yeah.
nicoleClosing thoughts?
treyI have a lot of thoughts. No, um, you know, like I said, I think, um, for me, with any relationship I have, um, you know, whether it's friendships, obviously my- you, Nicole, my kids, people who work with me or work for me, is like getting to know them, um, and knowing what they need. This is something that I always tell young leaders, young managers, is you can't communicate to every employee the same way 'cause everybody's different. Mm-hmm. So-
nicoleThat's good
treykind of learning them. Like, I like to have personal relationships or just getting to know the people that work with me or for me, so that I know kind of what motivates them, but also what makes them tick. Like, 'cause you never wanna upset somebody. Mm-hmm. I mean, you're going to at times, as a leader. Sometimes you have to have difficult conversations. Every relationship is built on knowing each other, and then also effective communication. For me, I think those are the two most important things. Um, but effective communication is gonna be different in every relationship. But just kind of knowing, like knowing what style or how to communicate, with the other person is, is key.
nicoleYeah. Being known doesn't remove our responsibility to make ourselves knowable, and maybe that relationship worth protecting is the one where we keep making room to do exactly that. Thank you.
treythank you. That was fun.
nicoleYay..
At its heart, The Things We Don't Say is about helping people recognize that there's always more going on beneath the surface of everyday life. It's about paying attention. It's about meaning. It's about beholding the bigger picture hidden inside ordinary moments. Because often, the things we don't say reveal the things that matter most. Thanks for listening