Dirty Dancing

This week, Nicky has chosen to talk about DIRTY DANCING (1987).

Written by Eleanor Bergstein and directed by Emile Ardolino, DIRTY DANCING tells the story of boy meets girl, girl learns professional dance routine while boy’s colleague gets backstreet abortion, boy gets sacked, girl is put in corner, boy and girl have time of their lives. An everyday tale, relatable to all.

Is this the sexiest film ever made or did Nicky just think it was when she was twelve? Does Baby’s coming of age tale resonate with straight men on the same level? Can Nicky argue its feminist merits or is it simply enough to win the hearts of sleepover attendees the world over? These questions and more get discussed on this week’s pod.

In all seriousness, this episode contains frank discussions around the subject of abortion, as it relates to Penny’s story.


References mentioned, and wider reading…

Dirty Dancing is an Underrated Feminist Masterpiece- https://www.themarysue.com/dirty-dancing-feminist-masterpiece/

Dirty Dancing, Jewishness, and Who Gets to be White -  https://thewhitepages.net/p/out-of-the-corner

The interview with Eleanor Bergstein - https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-back-alley-abortion-that-almost-didnt-make-it-into-dirty-dancing/ 

Guardian article by Ann Lee - https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/may/19/my-favourite-film-aged-12-dirty-dancing 


• Finally, you can find us on Bluesky at @lightscamereapod
• On Insta at @lightscameraaggro
• Or you can email us at lightscameraconflict@gmail.com
(Yes, we set up our email address before we’d finalised our name. What of it?!)



#films #podcast #movies #filmreview

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Hello and welcome to Light Camera Aggro, the podcast with two friends, one film and very little agreement. I'm Nikki and I like to decorate.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

And I'm Phil. And I'm very disappointed in you, baby. You're not the person I thought you were. And this week it's Nikki's turn to share the film, and today she's bought the 1987 classic Dirty Dancing.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Oh, that will come soon enough. But first, how's your week been? Well, it's been an exciting week. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

We've now got the podcast onto all major podcasts Apple, Spotify, Amazon, Amazon. Last night I was in a client's and I was telling her about it the next thing. Alexa, play light camera and go. And I'm um colouring uh hair that's listening pocket. It's really good, isn't it? It was like which one did you listen to? Uh it was Toy Story. Oh, yeah, that was it was big done. That's so cringy. But it it was good, and we've had our first five-star review on Apple Podcast. We've had a first-star review, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

It wasn't me.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

And it wasn't the family member, it's not me.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

It's nothing, no one I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Oh god, that's exciting. I'm just looking at it now. Oh god, we've got two ratings and it's five stars, so that must mean they were both five stars, wasn't it? Otherwise, yeah, they would be it would be diluted. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

And obviously, you know, like we we just spoke about this a couple of minutes ago. I look after all the statistical side of things.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

You you're you're I have no interest in the stats. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

You're you're you're more the research.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

I like to I like to watch films and talk about them, and I'm happy.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

And I just want to say, stop taking the piss out of me with my Americanisms because we are big in America.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

I don't think we are.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

We are we've got 50% audience share in America.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

No, that doesn't mean a percentage is not necessarily a big number.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

50% of the podcast listeners are from America.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

I know, but I just don't think you can quote that like it's a good thing. It's 50% of two is one.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Do you know what I mean? Well, yeah, I know. But we're not on two listeners, we're on more.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Okay. And again.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

I'm not revealing how many thousand that was actually listening to it. But not that it's floats, my I don't yeah, I'm happy. See, I like all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yeah, I like to provide good content and happy.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

So let's get on to other things within my week.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Oh, great. Okay, but what about you?

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Supergirl.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Oh, I've seen Supergirl last week. I watched it for the Aircom.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

I enjoyed it. I knew you would. Yeah, because you didn't.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Um I knew you would because when I was watching it, halfway through I it dawned on me, oh, we're not gonna see her in Metropolis, she's just gonna be in space the whole time. And I then thought this is a cross between Star Wars and Doctor Who, and Star Wars is definitely not my vibe. Um the stuff I liked about Superman, which is obviously in the world, is all the him being in a newspaper office in New York, because that's what I like about it, and then he does crazy things that are cool. This was all space, and I just struggled. But it was uh but I have good earth con, so I was happy with that.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

So then with this, uh it's based off a comic, uh, this story, and because Superman is the person he isn't on Earth, she doesn't feel like she fits in, and that's why she goes off.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

I'm sure there's logic to it, I'm not knocking it.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

And at the end of the movie, you you kinda see she's found her place now. So it was just about her journey.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

I understand all that, and I I I am sure if you're into the whole of the universe, it makes perfect sense. I just wanted some fun, fun stuff. I I tell you what though, I mean it's a really well-made film and it's all good. And the woman who plays Supergirl is phenomenal, she's brilliant. Oh, I love her. Um, but what I it was incredibly dark. The the plot about, I mean, I don't really want to do spoilers, but the plot where she's saving the girls is dark shit.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

And I thought, because I I went with my partner who didn't really care too much either. We were there for the air con, both of us, and he thought it was gonna be shit. And he thought it was gonna be like an eight-year-old girl's sleepover movie, right? That I dragged into, which I find hysterical because it was so not that. And as we came out, I kind of went, Oh well, at least we got the aircon. And he was like, that was amazing, right? Because he was had such low expectations. I should also point out that an eight-year-old girl sleepover movie can be the best film ever. I don't I think that's very dismissive of his vibe.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

13 going on 30.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

And also the film we're gonna talk about later, I would suggest. Yeah, maybe. But it's you know, he thought he was going to see something that was very child like child-based, and it blatantly wasn't because it was so dark. Um, and I was surprised how dark it went, or how dark it the implication went.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

It's much darker than the previous movie, Superman.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Yeah, last year's Superman, yeah, yeah, I thought so. That was a lot brighter, a different thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Story-wise, but yeah, I I really enjoyed it. I thought it was a good addition. I'm looking forward to the next chapter. It's it's bombed box office-wise, but that's just controls because of yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Well, she was brilliant. I thought yeah, she was so watchable on screen.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

So thanks for asking about my week.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

I rewind three weeks ago, but I didn't even get a word in about my week.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

I clearly had a lot to say. My week's been fine. The hot weather has died down a little bit, so things are better. I've just cracked on with my routine. I'm sort of between books now. I need to start planning my new book soon, but not yet, because I've just I'm still kind of on the come down from the last one. Uh so it's just nice to chill.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

And also, this is the last of series two of our progress. And we've just been talking about starting to plan series three.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Exactly. So all that is to come. Um yeah, exciting times.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

It is indeed. Before we start, remember to like and subscribe across all our channels now on Apple, on YouTube, Spotify, Amazon. Really help appreciate it, it helps the podcast grow. And also, this is going to be full of spoilers. If you haven't seen Dirty Dancing, where have you been?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Oh yeah, come on.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Now it's time to pause the podcast and come back when you're done. And we'll be waiting.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Just to let you know that today's episode will contain some frank discussion about abortion. It's dirty dancing. You have been warned.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

So, Nikki, why dirty dancing?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Oh, my 12-year-old self has just entered the room. This film, okay, it's not one of those films I'd say is my favourite film of all time. I've got all the films that tick that box, but this film was just seminal. And I think it was for many girls and maybe some boys. Uh, it was just one of those films that came out when I was the right age to see it. Now, it came out in 87. I was nine. I did not see it in 1987. I started to watch it in.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

You were too busy watching the sound of music. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

I was still doing all like rear window. Um I started to watch it at a family party in 1989. So I would have been 11. And it was like, oh, it was my dad's uncle's 75th.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

It was all my dad's cousins, all their kids, and all their kids. So like there was just a whole mirror loads of people at this cousin's house. And all of like I was 11, but some of the teenagers pulled me to one side and says, We're gonna put a film on. And I thought this was the coolest thing ever because I was 11 and they were probably 14. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I was oh my god, and I didn't have any older brothers and sisters, so this was like amazing to spend time with older people. And we went into like this den, and all these like teens and kids were there. And first of all, we watched Pretty and Pink, and then we watched Dirty Dancing, and Dirty Dancing started, and then my mum and dad were like, right, we're going. It's about like about midnight or whatever. So I was like, Oh, I nearly saw Dirty Dancing. Oh I was fashioned. I don't even think we'd met Johnny by the time I had to go. This is the thing, it's like early doors, but I was just like, I nearly saw Dirty Dancing. I knew what Dirty Dancing was because I used to read Smash Hits, so I knew all the new releases, I knew it was like about dirty dancing, and I knew it was one of those sort of things I wanted to watch. Christmas 1990, I was 12, and it was it was on TV, and I recorded it as I do record things at Christmas. But because I lived at home with lots of brothers and sisters and a mum and dad, and they were always, always like, you can't watch that, not while the kids are around. There's you know, couldn't watch things like Grange Hill, because that was a bit like edgy for like two-year-olds. So I knew I had it on video, but I knew I couldn't watch it while anyone was around.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Also just for our American audience, Grange Hill is a teen truck. It is a teen soap set in a high school.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Oh my god. Right, we're not doing this. American people, hello, welcome listening. If you are, but please, we're not going to explain everything because nobody explained to us what things were when we read American stuff when we were kids and listened to American stuff. So just get over it. Right, 1990. I had this on video and I knew I wanted to watch it. But my parents, again, loads of kids, they didn't really have bad times for any of us. We were all just like wandering the house till we dropped. So I used to have to wait, it was Christmas holidays, I used to have to wait till everyone had gone to bed, which was late. By about midnight, probably mum and dad would have gone to bed, and then I would go downstairs and I would watch Dirty Dancing with the lights off because it was night time and it was like dark, and I didn't want them to come down and go get to bed, Nikki. I'd watch it, and I did that repeatedly in those Christmas holidays, 1990 to 1991, and I just loved it. And I think one of the best ways you can experience dirty dancing is be a 12-year-old girl watching on your own in a dark room because it just adds to the heightened heightened sexiness. I was 12. This was you know, I was puberty pu pubertising, if that's the right word. This hit me pubescent. Yeah, this hit me right in the feels, it really hit me in the feels, and I loved it. And obviously, I love Johnny because he was just the sexiest man ever. Johnny, Patrick Swayze, such a lovely guy, gutted that he's no longer with us. But the way he acts, Johnny, the way he portrays Johnny is just electric. And you know, baby, I am baby, baby is me. We are watching this together, we are experiencing this film together. She's experiencing everything in this summer, I'm experiencing it as I watch the film. It was so perfect, the timing of it all. I loved it. Loved it. How about you?

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Right. Um, yeah, I was a 12-year-old girl in a dark in the room watching this for the first time. If a recall right, now it's it's just dawned on me timings you're talking about. I think I first seen this with my mum.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Right? Uh so back in the day my dad was away at sea. Yeah. And you know, my mum, I was the oldest of three boys, and used to get videos from the video shop all the time. And I've been a film buff since very, very young. Right. Star back tonight, right? Since very, very young. And I used to sit and watch films with my mum all the time. Two brothers would be up in bed and and stuff. And I remember watching this for the first time, but you just say the time, and like my mum passed away in 1989, this was only 1987, and I've perceived this to be a long time before my mum passed away. I've seen it multiple times since I've seen it multiple times by myself. Um dating girls when I was younger, you know, that was the the movie that did all well, there were two movies. There was this, uh, Daisy Dancing or Pretty Woman. And and it's funny because like very different films. Very different films. And you know, I always used to have like a joke with people because uh obviously a hairstylist uh in my career, and used to cut people's hair, and they go, Oh, I just want to be like Julie Robertson, pretty woman. I go, What a prostitute! No, no, not that pretty much, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Um I enjoyed it when it came out. Yeah, it is also. Do you know what?

SPEAKER_00 12:31

I I I like both the films. I think they're very good. So you if you start picking both films apart, there is problematic stuff, right? But um they are enjoyable to wash over you.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Well, I will argue that there's much more to dirty dancing in this. I would agree, I would agree, there's much more to dirty dancing than in-depth.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Well, yeah, that's they were the two sort of like, you know, if you got back to a girl's bedroom, you knew pretty woman or dirty dancing was going on. And then you got the feels.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Then you got you then you got hit in the feels. Yeah. Um okay, so just to let you know, during this chat, I will be veering wildly between the 12-year-old girl that is still inside me and the clear-eyed 48-year-old that has analysed this with 21st century eyes. Yeah, now I'm just giving you that. But you won't know which it is. Depending, you'll have to work it out.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Now I will I wanted, right, so uh a few pods back, you made a critique about my films are good versus evil.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

A lot of them, yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Your films are always taking you back to being like six. Yeah, they always they that's what you know. So there's a theme to the podcast that I I agree, there's another criticism of my films because they're things I enjoy, good versus evil, seeing somebody trying yours and what you take you back to how you're just gonna die.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah, I think it's because I think the point of this part we s when we started talking about it was we have so we both like film and we end up talking about film when we get together, but we have such different uh sort of likes and loves of film. And uh the point of this podcast, I think, was it's probably lost a bit now, was films that we feel made us, films that we feel uh put were poured into us at an age that they created our personalities. So dirty dancing definitely for me, I I would say, for example, Shirley Valentine, which we talked about in the first series, that just set my personality in terms of what I expect from marriage, what I won't put up with in a marriage, what I think is right in terms of um relationships. That just just I saw it at 14 and it just set me up for life with my values. And this one, slightly earlier at 12, this set me up for what turns me on which I won't go too much into.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Right, okay, we've just got it.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

It just did. This was like the sexiest film I had ever seen at 12. Have I seen sexier films since? Maybe, but there's nothing like going back to what really kicked it off.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Yeah, so so the only the only equivalent I have to this, and I don't mean in terms of sexiness, but you know, were you saying you went into this darkened room with like this teenagers and were like, Wow. Oh, it blew my mind watching it that my uncle failed. My moments of that, and again, it's not for sexiness and stuff, but it was just like, oh my god, I didn't realize this type of stuff exists with RoboCop.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Okay, very different experience. And did you get your first direction with RoboCop?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

No, I did not. I I got I got the first time of like seeing people's hands blown off, and I was like, I did not know this type of stuff existed.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

So yeah. So should we crack off?

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Oh, so good. Okay, let's break down the plot. So we start with Be My Baby blasting out over slow-mo black and white sexy dancing.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

So this this is the time to jump in. What a soundtrack this is. Oh, it's the best. We all had this soundtrack. Even even I had it in the car. Yeah, it's the best. I think I was thinking about this driving up here today. I can't remember if it was the 20th anniversary, the 25th anniversary, or the 30th anniversary of this film. They released a double CD with the entire and I had that because I like not just not just the songs of the film, the the pop songs, the the little intricate moments. I'm gonna talk about that when we get to it. What what I think this film did really, really well. What year is this film set?

SPEAKER_02 16:40

It's set in 1963.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Right, it's in 1963, but it infuses 80s pop songs into the movie as well, and it it does it so well. Yeah, where you don't know.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

It sounds like they should all be through the same era, but they're not.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

There's newly been like I at the time of my life, um Hungry Eyes.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Yeah, she's like the wind.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, all these 80s songs, but when they're actually in the film, you you don't notice that it's you you're jumping you know 20 odd years later in terms of music, it it works so well.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Yeah. So we start with uh voiceover. Uh that was the summer of 1963 when everybody called me baby and it didn't occur to me in mind. That was before President Kennedy was shot, before the Beatles came, when I couldn't wait to join the Peace Corps, and I thought I'd never find a guy as great as my dad. That was the summer we went to Kelleman's. So it sets it up. I mean, I'm not usually a fan of voiceovers, but hey, yeah, this just set gets you right in there. This is Baby. This is her story. Um, and she is Jennifer Grey. She is on the verge of adulthood. This is an innocent time in her life.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

She is 17.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Is she 17 or is she 18?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

She's 17.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

She should say that at some point. She's going to uni that year.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

These are things I Googled. Well done. Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

So she's going to uni in the fall. So we know she's kind of she's finished school, she's got this long summer, um, but she's still young enough to have to go on holiday with her parents and her sister. And she paints the world as being really innocent too. So in 1963, Kennedy's not been shot yet, right? So that was obviously a massive turning point. And the sort of 60s beyond that, you know, you have a few assassinations. Uh it's before I also Googled this because I wanted to double check. It's before the US were fully involved in Vietnam. I think Vietnam was happening, but the US hadn't put boots on the ground. So this is a very kind of innocent time in the sense, but it's it's also innocent for her because she is seven.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

The best cynicism in the world at that point.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Maybe, but definitely for her, because she's a child. I mean, I think child is is dodgy because she becomes a woman in the film.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

I have a 17-year-old daughter, and I would still class her as a child.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

She legally is.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

But whether she feels like a child and acts like a child is a very different thing. Because at 17 I didn't feel like a child and I didn't act like a child.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

No, no, 17-year-old does, but you are.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yeah, legally she is, yeah, yeah. No, I get that. Um, but it's like a rose-tinted view of the past. So she's narrating this this summer, and but she it's it's rose-tinted because she is young. It doesn't mean but the also maybe it is an innocent time in the country as well. But it's definitely set in the past. So we can all be nostalgic about a simpler time. We can all look back at a rose-tinted view, just like baby is. So the housemans arrive at holiday camp in the Catskills, and this is Mum, Dad, and older sister, Lisa, and Baby. So, first of all, let's just get this out of the way. You won't know this, but the mum, Kelly Preston, is Emily Gilmore from the Gilmore Girls. Yeah. Now I knew I know this, but I only recently binged Gilmore Girls for the first time last year.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

It was brilliant. So for years, I've known Kelly Bishop is Baby's mum. Now, when I see her on screen watching it this week, no, she's Emily Gilmore. She's Emily Gilmore, she's that's a definitive thing. She's Emily Gilmore. Do you know the Gilmore girls?

SPEAKER_00 19:51

No, I didn't know the Gilmore girls. Because I'm not a 12-year-old girl sitting in a darkened room.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Um and the dad is Jerry Orbach, he was always popping up in my show. Yeah, she's in a lot of films. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Don't think I've ever seen the sister.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

No, I haven't actually.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

And yeah. Maybe because she played a dick so well.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

She's uh she's alright.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

How how you know, uh obviously the character of Baby and and what's the sister's name? Lisa. Lisa. They are so different in in terms of personalities. Um you know, the actress who played Lisa did it really well because she just every time she goes, she didn't want to see it anymore. Really?

SPEAKER_02 20:28

That's her.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Why?

SPEAKER_00 20:31

She's just a dick.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Why she didn't?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

I just didn't like a character.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Um she falls for the wrong guy. She makes human.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

She's a wrong guy.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Um she can't sing.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

If you can't sing, halahula, halahua. That was gonna be my opening line. I thought I need to say that. Um, but yeah, yeah, she's just like obviously baby's got the innocence but an intelligence about her where Lisa doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah, but that doesn't mean she's a bad person.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

I know I didn't say she was a bad person.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Doesn't mean she's a dick.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

She is. Oh dear.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Um the name baby is grim, innit?

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

I hate it when I I know various people who do this, so I'll be very vague. But you know, when someone's talking about, I don't know, their grandchild or their child who's like seven or eight, and they call them the baby because they are the baby of the family. That's crap. Stop doing that. They're never gonna grow up, are they? Anyway. Enough of my parenting tips.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Yeah, such a good, such a good mum, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

I am Anna, yeah, I believe. Um so the family arrive and immediately immerse themselves in all the fun activities at the holiday camp. It is a bit hidey high, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Um, did you ever go to sort of a holiday camp like this?

SPEAKER_00 21:36

I've yeah, I've been to Butlands.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah, that yeah. I guess it's that, isn't it, basically?

SPEAKER_00 21:40

This looks much better than Butlands. So it's quite nice, yeah. It it is beautiful. Like the way I see this era, it wasn't a time when people used to get on planes and no, not at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

But I've been to so I've never been to Butlands. I've been to caravan parks, like Haven, Haven Mates, and the the entertainment and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Stannock's up in Um Sylla for being there.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

It's always cringe. I think when I was a child, I never wanted to be involved with the children's entertainment.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yes, definitely not.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Because I was not a child, you know what I mean? That's how I felt. But yeah, it's so it feels very familiar. We've seen this, we know this, even if we've not spent all our holiday time there. But it does seem dated, even if I imagine in 1987 this seemed dated. But we meet some peripheral characters straight away. The owner of the holiday camp is Max Calluman, who seems to be a friend of Dr. Houseman's. The dance teacher is Penny. Straight away were in a dance class. And then on the first evening, we meet Johnny Castle, and there's a lovely build-up to it. So Baby leaves their cabin, I think it's like late afternoon, early evening. And you were saying about the instrumental bits of music all the way through. There's this beautiful little refrain, or it happens a couple of times, and it's always to do when baby and Johnny are kind of together. And it's I had the time of my life, just really slowed down on the piano, and it's gorgeous. And he's that just plays as she kind of goes across the grounds to just she's exploring, and she sees or she sort of uh earwigs on a team talk by Max for the waiters. Uh and he's basically talking about schmoozing the daughters. It's pretty gross.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah, it's horrible.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Um you know, and and as he's doing that, Johnny walks in, and Max goes, Well, if it isn't the entertainment staff, it's such distaste.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

As if, yeah, it's the thing with like under underneath everybody.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Oh, he's just he just talks down to him. Um everything we need to know about Johnny is in that scene, it's in his first line. As he walks in, he goes, You got that guys? Because he's he just knows he's better than them, but he does he know that you know anything. He also struts, he has sunglasses and a leather jacket, so he's he is the coolest guy ever. But all these waiters are like kind of you know, there's obviously beef between them.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Well, the beef the beef comes from the fact that he is as as a male heterosexual, sexy as fuck.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Oh, he's sexy as fuck, and he and he knows it.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

And all the women swoon over him, he has that charisma about him. You can just you can see it from that first scene, he's got that charisma about him.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

But there is a class divide. All the waiters are graduates, yeah. And Max talks about I went to Harvard, I went to Yale to get him now. Um, yeah, so all the waiters are graduates. Harvard and Yale are mentioned, but Johnny is from the streets, he's sort of built himself up by his own talents. He's not there because he got headhunted by someone who wanted intelligent people to schmooze daughters while waiting through the tables through the summer. Um, it's clear there's a there's a divide here. Uh, but we also meet Robbie, who is a waiter, who is an irritating little man.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

He is really good. I held back words then. Yeah, he's already. Yeah, yeah, he's a dick.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

And him and Johnny have beef. So Robbie is the houseman's waiter at the first family meal and he flirts with Lisa. Um, but it's clear that Max, who's kind of schmoozing around the tables, he wants baby to get together with his grandson Neil. He introduces her, and Neil is preppy, posh, stuffy.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah, just not fancible in any way. No, there's just nothing about him, he's just beige.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

He's beige, but because he's sort of inheriting hotels, he thinks he's excellent. You know, he sort of makes that comment later on.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

He looks he looks down his nose at people very, very even the the waiter on staff, he thinks he's a level above them.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Yeah, he's completely up himself. Uh, later in the ballroom, everyone's ballroom dancing, it's all very stiff and formal. Um, and then the dance people come on, that's what Neil calls them, and it's Johnny and the dance tutor, Penny, and they come on and they are fab. They just light up the floor. And it did remind me, because obviously I saw this a long time ago, there was a time before Strictly Come Dancing, and dancing with the stars if you're in another country. There was a time when we didn't know, like you know, the average Joe didn't know what a merengue was or what a lumber was or what a you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Good, good few years old than you. Do you remember Strictly Come Dancing before it was celebrities?

SPEAKER_02 26:01

It was cool come dancing, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yeah. When it was in like in the bull the ballroom and the ballroom and things like Blackpool. And my mum used to watch that. Did she? Yes, she did. I used to like that. So so I have seen episodes of that, and you know, while we talk about the Foxtrot and like that. So I do know words of this nature in terms of dancing. I couldn't tell you where it was.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

So I could I would argue now we're in a post-Strickly world. Maybe not me, because I just watch it for I don't really watch it that much. But there's plenty of people who've never had a dance lesson in their life but love watching Strictly, who could see the dance that Penny and Johnny do on that dance thought and know exactly American well, whatever, yeah. I don't know. Because I do feel like we are more informed about this now. But at the time, these could these two come on and they're like mad, they do magic on the floor, they're just flipping each other around and it's chemistry's chemistry's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

I wonder what I like what we'll say about the chemistry between Penny and Johnny is the chemistry of the dancing and the friendship. Yeah, it's not chemistry, you know, where oh, does Johani fancy hair? I mean, strictly that doesn't always happen. Love that relationship between them.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

It is, it's good. But Neil isn't happy, he's dancing with Baby very formally, and he goes, they shouldn't be showing off with each other.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

They should be mingling, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

That's not gonna sell dance lessons, but Baby is transfixed. She's I mean, he's he is Johnny is a beautiful man, and she's a 17-year-old young woman, and she's transfixed. This is the pull all the way through of this film. It's people are doing things, people want to do things that they're not supposed to be doing, but they know they want to do. So he Johnny and Penny want to be absolutely lighting up the floor, getting the opportunity to dance and be brilliant, but they have to be like, you know, selling dance lessons, dancing foxtrots, you know, schmoozing old women, that kind of thing. Um, and therefore not being really happy. And it's about you know having to stay in your lane or break out of it. This is the thing all the way through the film, and so this is an example of it. When Neil asks if Baby wants to help him set up the games with him, uh mum and dad are dancing next to them, and her dad goes, Yeah, sure she would. Yeah, she doesn't want to do that, um, but she's having to do what you know she's expected to do. It's all this thing of doing what's expected. So next thing we see her being cut in two, having to deal with a chicken on stage.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

And she looks utterly.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

She's so feathered, and she's like the butt of the magician's joke. She's not having fun, this is a holiday, you know. Um, but this is Baby in her childhood, she's under control of her parents, so she's dancing with the the little boss man, as Billy later calls him, and she's helping do stuff on stage. She's got no autonomy, and her parents assume they know what's best for her. But she's not such a pushover because later that night she leaves her cabin and wanders off on her own. She just likes exploring, it's just quite a nice trait to see. She just wants to get out there, she's she wants to get out into the world. I think you get to a point, you might know this more than me, because you've got children who are not really children, um, but they just want to go, they just want to experience the world, they're ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Yeah, daughter one, I think we mentioned on last week's podcast, she moved back home, she was dreading moving back home. I don't blame her.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

It's so hard, it's such a hard transition.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah, she you know, she hadn't a few days left up in Manchester, so she was back and forth between home and and Salford where she was staying. And then she was like, I want to go to Salford for a few days. I was like, Why there's nothing there? All your friends have gone. Just want to be there between the last two days.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Yeah, I was talking to someone at the weekend and who has um well they're their child is well, he's 18, so he's definitely not a child. He's going to uni in September. And the dad was saying, He's just ready to go. And to be honest, we just we're ready for him to go. Rowing all the time. Because he's like, feels too old to be living at home, and it it's yeah, understandable. It feels like that's what baby's like. She's not rowing, but she's just wanting to be out there.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

So she wanders off, um, meets Billy, who works there, and by helping him carry large fruit, we can use the line in a minute. I'm not I'm not quoting the word twice. Uh he takes her to this like secret underground dance hall. How would we describe this? It's like where the the staff are kicking back. It's like it's all the staff who are just chilling out at the end of their show.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

The staff recreational area, they would call it. So it's just it's like a big empty route. Do you know what it probably is? The staff dinner hall.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah, it turned into a kind of yeah, and they've moved all the tables out the way and they put them in a bit of a bit of a Saturday night discount.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

But it's the waiters, aren't there? It's not the Harvard. No, it's like the end, it's like the low it's like it's the lower paid, the pot washers, it's the crappy paid, the entertainers, and it's like an underclass of staff. It's so interesting. These and these are all kids. When I say kids, I don't mean literally kids, but these are all young people, immigrants, low paid. This is a kind of a class of staff that are not visible to the holiday guests.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah, the immigrants. I would speculate, like, because when you look at the dancing and the Cuban influence on the all of the music, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

The music there and the dancing there, it's all influenced from not white mainstream Jewish, which is what this uh holiday camp is, um sort of stuffy mainstream traditional stuff. Yeah, this is the music of the streets, the dancing of the streets. This is passionate, it's fiery, it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

And and obviously that plays into the sequel then, Havana Knights. Okay, where obviously this type of music, and I don't know where the sequel's trying to push that that's where the influence comes from, but you could just see the way it was it was so different to the stiff upper lip of what the holiday camera was. It's a definite T to this, yeah. Sort of to different world.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

It is, it's a different world, and baby continues to be transfixed as she sort of watches all these people dance. Johnny and Penny turn up then after their shift, they're like celebrities, everyone cheers and they run in and they just get straight onto that dance floor. Does make me laugh all the times we see Johnny and Penny not working, they're kind of dancing, yeah. And it does make me think when I used to finish teaching at the end of the day, I didn't really want to go and do some teaching.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Oh, no, you teach me all the time, so you still teach.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Yeah, maybe. When you see them like sort of just chilling out with a beer when they're sort of so they're still dancing, so maybe this is what dancers would do.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

I would imagine I would imagine, you know, the way they are as characters, their passion is dancing, so why wouldn't they be you know, smoozing a little bit of dancing together?

SPEAKER_02 32:26

So they turn up and they just get straight on the dance floor, and their dancing is wild, it's nothing like what they've been doing upstairs, and it's it's like a it's it's it's real life that baby's never seen before. Baby's never seen these people before, she's never seen this kind of dancing, this kind of music. It is a absolute kind of she's slack jawed, she's just staring. Because she's had a very protected, privileged life. She just has, and this is like suddenly she's seeing a different life. Billy introduces Baby to his cousin, who is Johnny Castle, Patrick's face, and he is the guy with the most charisma in the room, and he starts talking to her, and she's though he immediately goes, What's she doing here? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

She shouldn't be here.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Yeah, he's not particularly friendly, but she's face she's face to face with him, and she says, I carried a watermelon. And it is the funniest line because she just is like, Oh my god, she knows we said to me stupid.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

She's like, Did you think my line was the old girl was gonna be like, I thought or some not being put in the corner or whatever?

SPEAKER_02 33:22

I thought it was gonna be one the obvious one. But Johnny drags her up to dance and basically just tutors her on the dance floor because she's really wooden, she's really stiff, um, and he explains how to like relax the hips and to move and stuff. Um, and so she learns to roll her hips and gyrate with him. We all did this in the lounge at night in the dark. We all did this, we all followed his instructions.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

I never ever did this myself. I'm more of the karate kid go and do the kungku kick in the kitchen afterwards. Um but but what is great here is you can see the instant chemistry between them. You know, there's something there, the way she moves, the way he moves together. Take for a minute, but but it works, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

So next day, I mean she's just had the best time ever. This is brilliant. She's just had the time of her life got. But the next day it's back to the family fun activities. Um, all kind of, you know, they're trying on wigs. Um, it's all sort of hidey high again. Baby sees Johnny, um, and it's clear she's got a crush. And then we see Johnny later on dancing with one of the holidaying wives, who we know later is called Vivian Pressman, uh, on the dance floor. So he's basically paid to dance with bored women.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Yeah. These are women whose husbands go home through the week and the women stay in the holiday for the week, and then the husbands come at the weekend.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah. Uh, because there's a funny line where Max asks about a husband, and then he just says, He's away a lot. I know the hardship. It's funny because this woman's just like obviously loves the fact that Johnny's dancing with her. That night Penny's gone missing in the middle of a shift, and Neil is looking for her. Um, but him and Baby go for a walk outside, and he's being really cringy. He says at one point, if your parents think you're with me, they'll be the happiest parents at Kellerman's. Um, and then they go and get some food in the kitchen. But that's when Baby spots Penny as she's hiding in the kitchen, she's clearly distressed. Um, and baby distracts Neil uh and makes him leave before he sees her. So she's kind of got that sort of sense of solidarity about I know Neil, we don't want Neil to see this.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

But Neil, this is not about for a 17-year-old that was very grown-up moment.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Yeah, she knows the score that this is not something to let Neil say. I like Baby at that point because she might be greedy and inexperienced and have led a protected, privileged life, but she knows enough to just know that Neil getting involved would be the worst thing for Penny.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

And then Johnny.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

And well, yeah, and Johnny maybe that's why she's doing it, but then she goes and tells Billy, and Billy goes and tells Johnny to go and help Penny. And so then it gets the bit where I didn't understand a lot of what this plot was when I was 12. I kind of eventually understood it. But Billy basically says, Penny's knocked up.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

And I did not know that phrase, and I did not know what that meant when I was 12.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

I knew that when I I knew that phrase when I watched this movie for the first time.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

I didn't, I eventually worked it out in the follow the rest of the film when I watched it. I understood what was happening with the abortion, but I did not understand the phrase knocked up.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

And at this point at this point within the story, and I'm I'm taking myself back years ago, you also might presume it's his Johnny at this point.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Well, I didn't because I didn't know what it meant. So I knew it wasn't Johnny. I knew it wasn't Johnny because I'd yeah, I just it took me ages to work out she was pregnant, and then by the time I did know she was pregnant, I knew it was Robbie because they'd said it. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, I never thought it was Johnny, but fair play. I understand how that would be the case. So this is again more real life for baby to witness. And yeah, we find out that it's uh Robbie the waiter who's sort of flirting with um who's flirting with baby's sister, Lisa. Penny needs money for an abortion doctor who's in town the following week. And again, back in 1987, this is this would not be the case. This was not an issue because we had Roe v. Wade. But then in 1963, it was the case. So this is showing a historical depiction of what might have happened had you been pregnant with an unwanted pregnancy in 1963. And it's really hits a very it's it hits very differently now when you watch it, it's really grim now. Um and at the time it was just a historic grimness. Um it's gonna cost $250, which is a lot of money, because it's a lot of money now just to be able to get hold of.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

I was trying to think last last night when I rewatched this again. I was trying to think how much would the equivalent of $250 be in modern science? Probably about two and a half grand.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

I just feel like it's a lot of money to be able to get your hands on uh in a panic, you know, immediately. Um, and they've got no way of getting the money. It looks really bleak, but Penny tells Baby, and Penny's just like, go back to the play pen. She's just dismissive of Baby. She knows she's like, there's no, she has no reason to be there. Baby confronts Robbie, who's an arse, yeah, and he says, it's horrible. He says, Some people count, some people don't. And then he shows his copy of The Fountainhead, which is very much in that vein, you know, thinking of yourself, putting yourself first, that philosophy. And it just immediately, we just know he's there's no redemption for him, he's just awkward.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

But there is a scene where baby sees Lisa and Robbie walking out like the woods as if something's just happened, and at that moment, you can you can see that he's just trying, he's just there to try and get his end away.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah, he's getting laid all the time, that's it, yeah. And he's been encouraged to by the boss, as opposed to Johnny, who's not encouraged to, because again, double standards, what blah blah blah. But baby has an idea, she talks to her dad, yeah, Daddy. Someone's in trouble, and that basically is all it takes. He he asks a couple of questions, but you know, even she you know, he says, What's it for?

SPEAKER_00 38:49

And she says, I can't tell you, but he still gives her the money, which shows him in a really good light. He's a good person, he is a good person. I do think the dad is a g ultimately a good person.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

I just think he's evil, but I do think maybe you'd ask a few more questions.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Well, maybe it was trusting his judgment of his daughter.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

He doesn't see her as being anyone who would do anything wrong because he's got a very roast interview of his daughter. She's a baby. She's the baby, how could she do anything wrong?

SPEAKER_00 39:19

So, yeah, I you know, good on the dad for giving her the money. You know, where do you just have that 250 grid lineow?

SPEAKER_02 39:28

The summering for a whole bunch of weeks. It would not have happened in my house if I'd have asked my dad for 200. Firstly, I'd say, sorry, I haven't got it. And secondly, they'd be like, as if I'm giving you money for something you're not telling me about. No way. Yeah. But I wanted for the guy who I fancy his friends' abortion.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

They they my mum and my dad would have been like, no, and expecting me to turn up on a motorbike or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

So Penny has the money for the abortion, but there's a problem. It would mean she has to pull out of her regular gig at another hotel that showed Sheldrake, I think.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

I want to add Johnny says it takes a lot of courage to ask your dad for the money, doesn't it? In a sarcastic way.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

They take the piss, but equally it does solve their problem.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

It does.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

It solves their problem, except Penny will now have to miss this regular gig, and it means not getting the money and also possibly missing next year. But there's a plot twist. Baby could fill in.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Yes. The cousin goes, but she did dance to you last night, like less than 12 hours later. So in 12 hours, baby dance with Johnny, got off in the morning, found 250 quid for an abortion with someone she's never met before.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

She technically can't dance, but you know, Johnny is a dance teacher, and Penny encourages it, and you know, it's what's gonna happen. Johnny isn't happy, and luckily starts to teach her.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Luckily, baby travelled with all the right clothes to be in dance.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

I think maybe Penny lent her clothes.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

We can't achieve sizes.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Oh no, they're not.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Penny's much taller.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

It's all stretchy, it's all stretchy clothes. Um, so we now get a bit of a montage, and it's it's pure strictly vibes, you know. When you see them working in the studio at the little VTs before the shows, lots of counting, lots of instruction, lots of footsteps, um, a montage of baby practicing steps by herself around the stairs and the steps in the holiday camp.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

I do actually like this scene. I love a good montage.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

I know, I do. I think there's are they very 80s? Do we not get them anymore? I don't know. I feel like all my favourite films have montages.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Yeah, we're montages. There is there is one movie I think Rocky 4, which I call the montage. There's all four montages within the film. It's just but they are good, they are good. Yeah, yeah. And this this works perfectly. It takes you from place to a next place. It sets the tone because like it's been quite dark at this moment, you know, talking about Penny's abortion, how bad things are gonna be, and so that this lifts the tone back up again. It does one again.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

And as much as you're saying they're a dark themes, which they really are, it never goes it never stays in them too long. We're brought out of them quite quickly by music and dancing. It's clever the way they do it, it's just you know, it's there, and we know what it means and we know what's happening, but the tone is still like sleepover movie, you know, fun teen thing. But through these montages, we see Johnny starting to be nicer and softer in tone, and then Hungry Eyes kicks in over the music, and we see them start to get the rhythm together. They start it actually starts to work, and there's more montages then of them actually dancing.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Is this the hungry eyes is the the arm scene, isn't it? Yes, it is, but I think this is the the first time I think um babies in like a bit of a crop top and sort of tight leggings, but you see how small frames she's written tiny.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

I put she is tiny and he is broad chested and muscular.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Yeah. And I picked up on it last night when I was watching, I was like, how tiny is she?

SPEAKER_02 42:47

She is tiny and she's short as well, but he is I don't think I don't know. I don't think he's like Arnie, you know what I mean? I don't think he's popped up to like Mr. Universe stamping.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

He's six he's six-pack and toned.

SPEAKER_02 43:01

Yeah, he's definitely got done some work, but the the difference between them is huge, and it's really like she is this tiny thing, and he is this big man, and it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

But it really emphasises their perceived roles, as in she's a baby and he's this big man, and actually that plays really nicely into the theme of the film, which is like they sort of swap roles mentally in terms of well, we'll get into that later. Um, so this guy, this sexy, broad-chested, topless, often a guy, is exactly who a young woman. Yeah, he's he has shirtless a lot. But this is exactly who a young woman like baby or like me, age 12, would have a crush on. It's just it's it's cure for the wit the straight women and potentially for the gay men. Um and after I think we can recognise by this point that Baby has spent her life, or certainly her young ad her young adults' times, being surrounded by. Kneels in blazers, you know, at the family's do's and the friends and the kind of maybe social lives where they're the very stuffy, preppy, college-bound, blazer-clad, dull boys. And this is Johnny, who just absolutely breaks that mould out of that. They've been rehearsing for days, and it's starting to get stressful. They have a blazing round and it's throwing down outside. And in the end, Johnny says, So let's get out of here, which I love. Um and they need a break. So they go and he drives.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

So I want to jump in here now. One of my first slightly problem scenes, he's locked his keys in the car. Cars back in the day didn't have central locking leg they lose today. How it would be physically impossible to lock the car with the keys.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

We've locked our keys in the car before central locking. We've had to get a coat hanger and let Jimmy out.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

I don't get this one. And then he smashes the window.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Yeah, that's just part of his animal magnetism to show around. He's a tiger that's from came.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

I was gonna say it is this that whole scene is just put in to go, Johnny's a bit on the edge, a bit reckless. Johnny just does what he wants to do.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

When he's away from the camp and he's away from his job, he just lives by his own rules. Exactly. Um so they need this break, and we see them drive to a log across a river from somewhere beautiful, yeah. Uh, and they balance and do dance steps, but they talk as well, and we hear a little bit of backstory about how he got into dancing. And it's basically this is the part I remember when we talked about Rocky. I was like, Rocky reminds me of Johnny Castle. If he didn't have his boxing, you'd have nothing. Johnny didn't have dancing, he wouldn't have anything. Like, he's not educated, and no one's investing in his education. Um, there's a bit later on where he finds out his uncle can finally get him into a union and it's the painters and decorators union. That's not what his talent is. His talent is dancing, and that's what he should be doing. He should be before me, he should be dancing. But like, no one in his where he's from is gives a shit about that. They just get in it, get in a trade, you know. So it's really interesting that I just think he's like Rocky. Oh, Rocky reminded me of Johnny Castle.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

They've been given a talent.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

They've been given a s a gift, if you like, a talent, and that's all they've got, but they will use it. Yeah, so they do the dancing on the log, they do the lifts in the lake. It's so beautiful, it's such beautiful scenery. Um, and we hear the slowed-down instrumental time of my life again, and it's just beautiful, and we can see they're getting closer. It's the night of the hotel gig, and Penny helps Baby get ready and reassures her that she's got this. But meanwhile, Penny is terrified about the abortion, and Baby says, Um, don't worry, you'll be fine. It just underlines her naivety.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Yeah, because this is how young she is.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

She's dead young, she doesn't know the real implications of the city.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

See, this is this is one of the things that I want to emphasise is how young Baby is in this.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Her naivety to the world, her views of how things are and stuff, and I like and this and that scene encompasses it really well. It does. Where it's like, oh, it'll be fine, like not understanding the the harsh reality of what she's about to go through, Penny.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

I agree with you on that, but I also think the whole point about Baby is she is she has been protected, but she doesn't need to be. She's stronger than her family thinks she is. And okay, so she doesn't necessarily understand she sounds naive when she says it'll be okay. When you just think, Oh, it's really not gonna be okay. Um, she does sound naive, but I do think this film is about her showing everyone who's called her baby that she's not a baby, actually. Thank you very much. You know, it's her, it's her she grows up this summer. This is the summer she grows up, and it's not just because she gets laid, it is because she she's ready for that, she's eager for that, she wants to see the world, she gets into a bit more of the world than she's seen before. You feel like this will change her forever in a good way, I think. Anyway, we'll talk about that at the end. Um, anyway, Johnny and baby go to the hotel, they do their show dance, and it goes well more or less. They miss the lift, um, and they're a bit wooden, and she's seems particularly scared, but it's fine, they do it, it's all good. And then they drive back to Caluman's. And in the car, it's a little heated. They kind of glance at each other, they don't say much, they kind of glance at each other, little looks, a little bit like before sunrise in the record booth when one looks away, then one looks at them, and then the other person. It's all very kind of you know, hot and heavy, but nothing particularly happens. Maybe it's building up to something, but they arrive back and all hell breaks loose. Billy rushes to get them because this is the seal in a car where she's getting changed.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Yeah. And he's perving her. Well he's chatting and he's looking at me, so what's looking and he's like he's driving. Yeah, but he's looking in the mirror to look at her changing as well. I didn't give up on that.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

I don't think he's perving, I think he's just driving and then checking she's okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

No, I don't think she's not he's having a he's having a blimp.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

He's d he's danced with her in skimpier clothes.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

I know, but but she's check taking her top off and doesn't matter, he's he's still yeah. Anyway, that's a slight problematic scene I have in this time. I didn't know that. This is where your choice of certain things and no because you know he it is a problematic scene because he is looking at her getting changed.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

He's looking in his mirror occasionally because he's driving. I think it would if you if the if we were supposed to think he was being a right old perv, they'd have had to make that much more avert.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

No, it's a subtle perv.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

I don't think he is.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

I think he fancies her, because like this point they've got they've moved, they've got there's something as she in scenes going forward, um it's the that scene's redeemed because uh like of him as because nothing about this is about his feelings, all her feelings.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

So we are we are her, we are the audience is her. So she's getting changed anyway. Anyway, they get back, but this is when Billy finds them because the abortion was dodgy. Um, who knew?

SPEAKER_00 49:50

Dirty tools, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

The guy had a dirty knife and a folding table. It's really grim and it's really clearly explicit. Now at this point, I'm like, oh right, she had an abortion. This is this is I think when it all became clear to me. Yeah, because I didn't know what Nocturne meant. I read a piece that was like, what actually happened, and there's some discussion about what it was. So it could have been actual tools cut it open, but also um when we see baby when we see Penny when they they come back now, she's shivering, she's got a fever, she's got an infection. Yeah, um, so what Dr. Houseman does, because obviously we're rushing ahead now, but baby runs to get her dad, doesn't think about it, just goes and gets her dad, he's a doctor. Instinct, doctor, she needs trouble, she needs to be.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

She does not think about her own self. She doesn't even think about Penny either, because I guess she knows her dad, but some doctors would report it, but he doesn't, so that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Um that's why I think he's a good person.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

So yeah, I I agree with you in that sense. Yeah, he doesn't report it and he just goes straight and does his job and he doesn't give any judgment about what luckily for him, he has all his medical tools and of course he's got his bag.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

And there's his um things to inject her with.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

He's got a bag, he's got his doctor's back, yeah, it's fine. But the point is, um she had a fever because it was an infection, and he would have given her antibiotics and settled that down. So I don't think he's done any surgery or had mended.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

No, I think he gave her an antibiotic injection.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Yeah, that's what the conversation seemed to be. Um helps her sort her out, ask the question who is responsible for this.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

And I love Johnny for this.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

I am yeah, because he's responsible because it's his mate. It's his mate, and he's gonna look after her. Um and again, when I watched this, I didn't even think he meant who is the father. I just thought, oh, he's his mate, because I was you know a bit oblivious to all of the nuances. Um but of course of course this means that Dr. Houseman is not impressed with Johnny.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

No, he as as they leave, um Johnny's cousin Billy shakes the doctor's hand and thanks him, and then Johnny then goes shake his hand and he just ignores the doctor.

SPEAKER_02 51:43

Yeah, and he does not like Johnny.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

And this is where the line comes in. I thought I knew you, I'm really disappointed in you, baby.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Yeah, he wants us to have nothing more to do with those people again. We next see Johnny in his cabin, and this cabin is the one that reminded me of Rocky's apartment, another little uh link. You know, it's uh I think it's something about having the red glow over the lamp, I think that's all it is. Uh and there's a knock on the door. Now, this scene is pivotal, and I've just stressed that with my hands.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Pivotal. This is we need we need video to show how pivotal this is.

SPEAKER_02 52:14

Oh beautiful words. Okay, baby's at the door. Johnny is topless and looking good, and but he's really shook because his best mate and his colleague nearly died tonight. Yeah, and he's in such awe of Dr. Houseman about how he saved her. But baby is full of apologies about how her dad treated Johnny because he's embarrassed by it. Yeah, because her dad's a snob and she knows it now, she's seen this now, she hadn't seen this before. She's seen that he looks down on some people, but Johnny feels terrible because he's just like, No, it was brilliant what you did, it was amazing. I could never do that. And he says, The reason people treat me like I'm nothing is because I'm nothing, and that is heartbreaking. He's so vulnerable, and you imagine he's never talked like this to anyone before.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

No, he seems to have opened up to Baby in a way that he probably hasn't because he is very arrogant and charismatic. When I say arrogant, I don't mean in a horrible way, yes, about him.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

Yeah, um, because I mean that's what he's paid for to be the sexy dance guy, isn't he? Like basically. Um, but here in this scene, there's no swagger or bravado, he's being properly open about himself. Um, and baby continues to be this force of optimism for him. She's like, Don't say that, da da da um, and he's like, You're scared of nothing, and she's like, I'm scared of everything. And then she has this whole bunch of things she's scared of, and then she has a lovely line. And most of all, I'm scared of walking out of this room and never feeling in my whole life the way I feel when I'm with you.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

So and and this scene, right? It's like a reverse scene of baby seducing him. This is the point.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

This is her film, she's in charge, he is not in charge of this because this could be in a different um a different way, completely predatory. He's much older. We'll talk about that later. Yeah, we will. But it's not because she's in charge and he's vulnerable and really hurting at this point because of the stuff that's gone down, and it's beautiful. He's not worldly Johnny taking control and having yet another conquest, which he's talked about.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

I think this is a thing that the film does well as well, because it puts him in the vulnerable position and it puts her as the one who's got this the little bit of swagger. When I say swagger, I don't mean that, but she's the confidence.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

She leads, she shows Johnny he's worthy of her love, and she's in control. And this scene is all female guys. We don't see her naked, we see him glistening, fraud-shouldered, sweaty. She runs, yeah, she runs.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

He's very sweaty throughout this whole movie.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

She runs her hand across his back and his shoulders and his arse. It is the camera lingers on his body, doesn't linger on hers. This is all it's one for the girls. This is all female gaze. And I just think in 1987 that's revolutionary. Yeah. Just is. Um, and then they start to dance together, and the music is slow, and they'd sort of their bodies move in rhythm. And the awkwardness and the slight woodenness we saw just a few hours ago at the hotel when they're on stage doing their wooden stiff kind of you know show dance is nowhere to be found. They are moving in town with each other. She's like her back is bending backwards in two as he lowers down, and he they move back. It's it's like liquid. They are their rhythm is beautiful, completely in tune with each other's bodies, and it's just gorgeous. It's a gorgeous scene.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

It's done really well.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

The next day, there's a frostier at the family breakfast. Dr. Hawkesman tries to say that they're going home early, but no one is letting him. The mum, sister, baby, there, so he has to change his mind. Penny is recovering nicely, and she ends up getting visited by Baby and Johnny at the same time. Um, straight away she knows they've shagged. Yes. She knows Johnny very well.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Woman's intuition.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Yeah, uh she when baby goes, she's like, you have to stop it now to Johnny. But Johnny does not stop it. Uh we see him and Baby spend the rainy afternoon in bed, and it's like we just see them afterwards after they've clearly Is this just past the can we hear a love a boy scene?

SPEAKER_00 56:03

Oh, I don't know. I love that scene.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Yeah, I don't even think I mentioned that.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Yeah, I can't I don't know. It was just it makes me laugh, but it's also nice at the same time. It's showing a little bit of chemistry between.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

But we see them talking in bed afterwards, and it's lovely. Um and they're asking each other questions, it's the getting to know you stage, which is nice. Have you had many women? Um I'm afraid Johnny will have and he has and he's basically talking about, and it's like more vulnerability about how women just you know, he used to be like had nothing and not be able to afford to eat, and now women are like constantly telling, you know, coming on to him and giving him stuff, giving him money. And he's the eye candy here, he's getting used and abused. It's a real a real switch of power. And he asks her, What's her real name? Which I also think it's such a simple question, but it's so important. He doesn't, he knows she's not a baby, and he's not gonna call her baby. Well, that's it, it's it's like this is the moment she's transgressed in his she's grown up, she is an adult, so she's making her own decisions, and he's wants to see her as an adult. Yeah, it's lovely. The other houseman sister, Lisa, her relationship is not as good. Uh Lisa tells Lisa tells Baby she's decided to sleep with Robbie, and Baby's like, no, not no, and she tries to dissuade her. But Lisa makes the point that the only thing that baby cares about now is that she's not daddy's girl anymore, and she says, He listens when I talk now. You hate that, and that's a fascinating little dynamic. So baby's always been this golden child who her dad thinks can do no wrong, yeah, and he's like, you know, as you said before, Lisa Baby's like this intelligent woman, she's gonna go off to university, can you just Lisa is going to decorate? Yes, and it's a whole different thing, but now Lisa is the one that he's like listening to. It it kind of shows crap parenting, it's on downstairs. This is not a good way to treat your children when they can see they're being treated differently, but she's no baby's no longer an innocent child and her family can see it, which is kind of nice because so it's not just with Johnny, it's everyone can see it. So now we get to a favourite scene while baby and Johnny are dancing in the studio. It's just fun, it's fun, it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

And I like the song, I like the way the song. Yeah, I just I just it was it was my standout scene when I was younger because it's just like you know, as a young boy, I was never like I don't want to see them kiss, don't see this, but it was funny. Like a lip sync. Yeah, I just want to see them lip sync battle.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

But while they're dancing, Neil comes in and he's such a square, yeah, but um, but he's the boss, so Johnny um tries to pitch a cool new dance to do that he's choreographed, but Neil is not open to his ideas. Neil is a shit boss, doesn't listen to uh good ideas when people have them, and Johnny has to stay in his lane, even though he's really frustrated. Babe encourages Johnny to speak up to fight, um, fight the boss man, but Johnny can't do it, he needs the job, he needs the money, he can't afford to rock the boat. And again, it's that privilege, isn't it, of thinking you can say so you can stand up to people and say what you believe, and it'll be fine. But actually, Johnny will lose his job and lose his income and lose his place to live and all of that. Um, meanwhile, where they see Lisa and Robbie uh being a couple in front of Dr. Houseman, who's fully supportive of them because Robbie's going to Harvard or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

He's got a great future ahead of him.

SPEAKER_02 59:11

Yeah, uh so Johnny's jealous of that and he sees the inequality. But Robbie is still a shit when he sees Baby kissing Johnny outside Penny's apartment, he makes a crass comment. Looks like I picked the wrong sister.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:23

But I know I want to just stamp on his face at that roll. Uh and Johnny pushes him around a bit. He ultimately doesn't kind of twat him to the ground, but he is like he does like rough him up a little bit, but he's not worth it. Robbie's horrible. But then we know that we Lisa finally finds out that he is because when she turns up to his cabin for sexy times, having got all ready and dressed up, uh she sees him in bed with another woman. So that's the end of season.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

Is it was it the woman Johnny was dancing with?

SPEAKER_02 59:48

I always thought it was. I don't know. Someone with dark hair.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

There could be, but I don't know. Um, I think maybe it's someone different. But yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

I'll leave to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

So now it's all hands on deck for the end of season talent show. Yeah. Bigula, halahula. So we see baby painting scenery, Lisa's auditioning a random song, and Vivian Pressman, whose husband constantly plays cards when he's there, is flirting with Johnny.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Now that's the one I thought it was in better.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:19

Yeah, I know. It's Vivian Pressman I don't think it is. I think Vivian Pressman's older. So her husband, Mo, pays for more dance lessons directly to Johnny because he's gonna be busy playing his cards all weekend, um, which I assume means sex. I assume in the past that's been Johnny's had to sleep with her.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

Yeah, so I think Johnny has had to sleep with her because there is a scene where she gets really pissed off.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

Oh, she's furious, yeah. Um, but Johnny knows that he's not gonna do that now because he's not just yeah, he's he hasn't he says he hasn't got the time, but he loves baby. Um but then in the early hours of that morning, the next morning, as baby's leaving Johnny's cabin early doors, having a little kiss on the veranda, Vivian Pressman, I think is also doing a bit of walk of shame himself, sees baby, so thinks, okay, and she's like not happy. So what's gonna happen there? Oh no, what's gonna happen? Uh it's breakfast time. Max and Neil are sitting with the housemans chatting away and saying how terrible it is. One of their staff is a thief. Someone's wallet got nicked, and Vivian Pressman says she saw Johnny.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

And it's spiteful revenge. Yeah, she just doesn't like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

He's chosen other woman over him.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:27

Yeah. Baby is appalled, not least because she knows Johnny is innocent. She knows that Johnny wasn't and he was with her. Yeah, that's what I mean. She knows it for sure. Or she would know he's innocent anyway, because she knows him, but she knows that this is all bollocks. Um, so she has to tell the truth, she has to stand up to the injustice, which is her thing. And again, she doesn't, I mean, she does try to say it wasn't him, it wasn't him. And then when they don't listen to her, she then has to say why she knows. So it kind of I do like how she doesn't think about her own sort of you know, her own self in all of that. She's not selfish about her own the sort of come up and she's gonna get. So I love that about her, and it might be naive, but she's idealistic and she's young, and isn't it good when we were all like that? Anyway, so she says he couldn't have done it because he was with her. Dr. Houseman, terribly disappointed, sulking on the veranda, and he just annoys me at this point. It just annoys me at this point. I just say, Oh, you've done this to yourself, you know, she's a grown-up here. Um, so baby makes an impassioned speech to her dad about she might have lied to him, but he lied to her too. The world is not the idealistic place he taught her it was. So she calls out his snobbery. Uh, he only wanted her to change the world for people like them, not just for anyone. And it's so on the nose, it's so good. It's a great, great little great little monologue. And this is her growing up, standing up to her dad, standing up to the kind of the world she's inhabited for all this time. And then they find the real thieves. It's the shoemakers. Yeah, who were at the dance hall, they're at the other hotel, they felt like the shoemakers is a little couple, it's dead funny. It's just it's just strange little blast. Um apparently they go around stealing wallets, yeah. Um, so Johnny, you know, is exonerated, but he is still fired for shagging a holidaymaker. And it's really crap because the double standard's a blink.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

Yeah, but this is the thing. If you if you're shagging Vivian, they'd have had no issue with that because she's upper class and all that, yeah. But because it was baby, it was uh it's horrible.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:27

And Rob, the fact Robbie is encouraged to kind of be with the daughters, take them out to the terrace, show them the stars, all that horrible. Uh just so Johnny's fired, and baby feels desolate, so all her idealism just like falls away. Like, there's no point in standing up for anything anymore because Johnny is still fired. But he says no, he said, no one ever stood up for him like that, it meant something. And I think there's something really lovely about like he he leaves. Um so he could he first of all goes to see Dr. Houseman to thank him for what he did for Penny. Dr. Houseman still thinks Johnny's the father, so just dismisses him, he can't see beyond his own prejudices. But there's something lovely about the goodbye that Baby and Johnny have. Because ultimately, this was not gonna be the love forever. It's a holiday romance, it's a holiday romance, it's something Baby desperately needed because she it it gave her the opportunity to show the world she's not a baby, basically, and it's something that Johnny needed because someone showed him he was worthy of love. So their goodbye, as much as it's a bit sad, they're both smiling, yeah. They're both sort of they're glad it happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

It's the not sad it ended, the happy it happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

Yeah, yeah. And I love the line when he kisses her head, top of her head, and says, I'll never be sorry. Yeah, oh it's so beautiful, isn't it? Yeah, it's such a lovely thing, it's a gut punch, it's so sweet and moving. They've both been changed by meeting each other, which I think is what a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

Because what you know, looking at it from one angle, like as you said, this is the baby's journey. It really is. Well, he's changed just as much as she has.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:00

He he's yeah, they they have both affected each other's lives positively, and it's what a what a perfect first love for her. Yeah, it's exactly how it should be. We get in the big concert, the end of season, yes, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

Where's baby sitting?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:17

She's in the she's in the corner. Um the staff sing the Kellyman song, which is massively cringe. Yeah, all the everything about it, just you just wouldn't want to be there.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

It's so nasty. This is my perfect nightmare having to sit through shit like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:37

Oh, it's awful. And it's oh it's yeah, and they're all dressed up. It's all like they're dressed for an evening dinner, they're all in like gowns. Oh all the dancers from the underground club are there in the background because they're staff. Yeah so they're all kind of just like stood at the back board off their tits, um, looking at this vanilla fest. Yeah. We see Dr. Houseman give Robbie Well, I always thought it was a check. When I read online it might be a letter of recommendation through medical school.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

I I I presumed it was money.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

I thought it was a check, but anyway. And that's when Robbie thanks him for his help with the penny situation.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

Um, so obviously Dr. Houseman sees the whole picture and snatches back the check or the letter of recommendation, rips it up. So it's a bit of comeuppance for the wrong one, which is we needed that closure. We needed that. And when we see Max in the wings talking to Tito, who's the band leader, and it's a really interesting little sort of comment where he goes, Everything's changing. No one wants to learn the foxtrot with their parents anymore. They want to go to kids want to go to Europe.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:40

And you think this is such an end of an era in terms of society as well. Because the 60s came along with like, you know, the Beatles and with pop music, and that was such a difference from the 1950s sort of stuffy kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:53

But it's almost like started to open up at that point.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:56

But it's almost like in the cat skills in 1963, it still hadn't quite made it. The 60s hadn't quite, even though we're three years into a decade, they hadn't quite got there. But now they were seeing that kind of finally reach even these sort of protected places. But we're heading towards our finale. I mean, this is it's this is brilliant. Johnny arrives. No way! Comes back, uh, he walks in from the back, and it's such a kind of you know, um guy kind of rolling down, you know, sort of a cowboy western film, the cowboy walking down the centre of the town as everyone's looking at it's proper, um, yeah, it's a real sort of he arrives and he makes his mark, uh walks down the uh from the back of the dance hall, from the back of the wherever they are, and walks are in made up to see him, and he walks past the houseman's table and tells them that nobody puts baby in a corner, which is just it's iconic now, but then what did that even mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:57

But it's funny now because like it's cringe the line now, but back then it was just like we need it, he's coming to save the day.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:07

Yeah, um, and he goes on stage, interrupts the crappy song that everyone's still singing, and makes a speech. He says he's gonna do his kind of dancing.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

He always does the end of season dance.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:17

Someone told him not to. I can quote the whole thing, but I'm not going to. But he's going to dance with Francis Houseman.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:23

And it's the first time we've heard a name spoken properly. Um, he uses her big girl name. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

But I just want to just point out this is one of like and and it's bad editing this in the movie because he then goes across and takes his jacket off. And then it changes scene again. He takes his jacket off again. I just we can always see Patrick take his top off more than once. No, but I'm thinking, does he double up jackets to make himself look bigger?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

It's so this ending is so iconic, and the music is the full fat version of I've had the time of my life, which is br is brilliant. They do the exact same choreography as they did at the Sheldrake. It's the same dance. Yeah, um, but this sexier version. This has got energy, this is sexier. This is the music obviously helps as well. Uh the beat pulses, the crowd whoops, they just absolutely like Neil said, Oh, they shouldn't be showing off with each other. They show off with each other, it is brilliant. And Dr. Houseman and Emily Gilmore look look on with astonished pride. Yes, they're made up. This is lovely for them to see baby not being a baby, she's Frances.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:28

And the mother says, I think she got it from me.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

I love that, yeah. It's cool. Um, in the middle of it, it's such a cool dance. Johnny jumps off the stage, and all the other dancers join in from the sound.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

Well, this this is like so obviously works while in the movie, and I'm not this in the movie, but everybody knew the exact same move that he was making, it was all choreography exactly the same. They're brilliant, they know they're intuitive.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

Have you seen the meme? It's so funny. You know when Johnny jumps on the floor from the stage and then struts along and everyone's like strutting with him. Yeah, there's I've seen it done where the music is replaced by the muffle themes.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:02

Yeah, it works really well. Yeah, um, and I've I've also seen it um where it's done like silent because there's no music, and it's just like, yeah, I I think this is one of the funniest things I've ever seen dancing in the streets with no music. Oh, that is just hysterical. So it's done in that vein, it's done in that vein. Um yeah, honestly, it's just really funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:27

So the carry on, they dancey dancey dance, they do the lift, so they finally have done the thing they've been trying to do for so long that they never did in the previous dance. They did the lift, the music swells, the room is on its feet, everyone is dirty dancing.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:39

But this is this this does make me laugh, um, you know, because this is the culmination of the movie that he's lifted it into the air finally, right? She's tiny, so he could lift her up no problem whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:52

But it's a balance, so she's not falling forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

I know, and it's it's about how she's levitated beyond what she was. I get the metaphors, but it just makes me laugh that this is oh my god, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:04

But the everyone we see all the characters then from the film dancing and partnering up. So we see Penny is chatting with Dr. Houseman, they're really happy. Neil is dancing with Emily Gilmore, uh, Billy and Lisa, Billy's trying to teach her how to dance, and we see her. Yeah, it's really sweet, it's really funny. And then towards the end, as Johnny and Baby are about to slip away, Dr. Houseman stops them and he apologises to Johnny.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:26

And you know, he means it, he's not and this is why when I interjected before and said he was a good person. Because I'd obviously he's gone on a journey, yeah, yeah. And and he's realised the errors of his way is not to judge people, but I will intercut here. Where would he go? Because the next scene, they're back they're back in the middle of the dance floor dancing again. So I don't quite work that out whether that was one of those things where you're throwing it to test audiences, maybe they went off, and test audience went, No, we want to see them carry on dancing or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:56

Uh but he said he as after he apologised to Johnny, he also says to Baby, You look wonderful out there, and he he he it's not just you look good, but like you were in charge of your life. You were you know, you were Francis, and it's such a lovely ending. The music carries on. There's a sack solo, the dancing continues. Don Johnny does a cheesy lip sync to baby on the dance look.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:15

I like that one with lip sync. See, I and this is the thing, like with us, you know, uh on our light camera, I grow. I like more cheese than you do. Yeah, I can't you can't do cheese. I like I like that lip sync, you know, and obviously going back to that scene of life where come here, love a boy, yeah, very cheesy. I love those moments, and maybe that's why I like Notting Hill and you didn't like Nottinghill. There's a lot of cheesy moments in that, and they they to me show warmth in the characters, you know. That he's looking ahead and he's singing, I owe it all to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

Yeah. Oh, and he means what he's singing, I believe that. It's amazing. I'll just get back to the big rousing paragraph I was reading before you keep interrupting. I've got one line left. And they kiss on the dance floor at the end. They kiss right, go on, get a thing out that you want to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:15

Right. Do you know what? It's a thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyable movie. Right. It is. I think the journey's good, I think the characters are good. I let this film wash over me. I love the music. I can get lost in this movie. You know, while this isn't my genre of movies, there's no good versus although, you know, you could say um the pregnancy, all that is the the battle he faced and stuff, but it it's a thoroughly enjoyable movie, and I'll never not enjoy this movie. It's a movie in the bracket of Back to the Future and of several movies, should never be remade. You know, I agree with that. They did it, they survived. They did remake the the movie into a TV movie, and it it wasn't good. There was one thing I did like about the TV movie. It showed uh Dr. Houseman and the mum's journey a bit more. They were there because they were having marriage problems, that's why they went on holiday. And I quite liked that little take on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:16

I don't believe that though.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

But I quite like that take on it. It's a take, but I don't believe it from this film. But it should never have been remade. This is the perfect movie. This is a 10 out of 10 movie, and I I I don't rate many movies as a 10 out of 10 because everything every element works for it. Now, watching it for a podcast like this, there's things I would pull apart, like she's 17, he's 25.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:39

Is that where did you get that from?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

I Googled it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

Well, yeah, that's not told me where you got it from. But do you get it from some bloke who just decided to make up their ages?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:48

Or is it from official? Um, I'll send you the link.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:51

Because basically, I Googled how old the actors were.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:53

Oh, yeah, they're much older.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:55

Yeah, he's 37, she's 27. Yeah. So he's 35, she's 27.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

Um, but she's definitely meant to be like 10 years younger than you.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:01

She's supposed to be 17, 25. Okay, well, I have no problem with that. My daughter, too, is 17.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:07

I would go ape shit if she was over 23.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:09

You might go ape shit, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:12

But it would go ape shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:13

Okay, fine. Well, when I was 17, I met a 23-year-old, you know, who I'm still with. I'm not 17 anymore. But the point is, yes, you might do, but that doesn't mean it's not realistic. Well, it's not, it doesn't mean it's not realistic.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:26

I know I'm not saying that's a good thing. I don't know specifically about your daughter, it's not realistic. Because things happen all the time like that. But I could understand how her dad feels.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:38

Is it because you see your daughter as a baby?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:40

So my daughter, who's 17 now, is not a child, she's not yet a woman, she's transitioning she's a young woman, yeah, to you know, adulthood now. Yeah, and I can see it, and you know, I'm dead proud of her. And you know, but like I say, I can still see childish elements to her, but I can still see some massively adult elements to her. She's she's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:02

Brilliant. This is not about Johnny. This is not about your daughter, this is about baby who I think is absolutely ready for Johnny.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

Yeah, and and the film, the film, you know, like like I said, I had a little laugh, like the cute culmination is he can lift it into the air in the end. But I guess there's different metaphors and things like that. She's soaring, she's flying, you know, all that.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:25

And he's supporting her. Yeah, he's supporting her gross.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:28

Yeah. I love that. And and I agree with you, I don't think there is a future in the their relationship after the movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:35

Um summer fling.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:38

I I don't I don't have a lot of criticisms for the movie. It's meaningful for both of them. It's a summer fling, but for her, it's her first love and means everything, and she'll remember it forever. For him, I don't know, it might be his first love, but it's some it's the first time that someone's shown that he's worthy. Yeah, it's not just oh what you for your body. It's someone who's seen him, yeah, who he's opened up to, and that means everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:59

He's a person, not a dick.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:01

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:02

So for me, thank you for asking. For me, what I love about this film is that this is baby's story, it is her story. We see her going from an innocent child in the car for her holiday to becoming a woman in that holiday. It's not just because she loses a virginity, it's also because she finds her power. She finds her power with Johnny, with her dad, with her family. She's like her life is mapped out. So her dad tells Max what she's doing the rest of that year. She's in control. She's taken back control. It's beautiful, and it's also where, and this is something that has to happen to everybody, um, where she loses her idealism a little bit and sees the real world a little bit. So, you know, we can all be idealistic when we've not had to like see live in the real world basically, and she realizes that. So that is also another step of growing up. And I think to watch this as a younger, I was a young girl, I was 12, to watch this on the brink of adolescence open to all the messaging that it would pour into me, because I was soaking it all up, every little influence at the time I was soaking up. It's great messaging. Because what it isn't is ten years later American pie, yeah, where it's male gaze, yeah, where it's just about getting blokes getting laid and you're just a pair of tits. And what it isn't also, to go back a little bit into the 80s, is the Breakfast Club where the guy who treats you like shit and who is angry is the guy you end up with because you think you might change him. This is about the guy that treats you with respect and that you feel comfortable with, and you fancy, is the guy that is lovely to you and you have a relationship with. It's the right messaging. And so, like I say, I said earlier in the sex scene, told in a different way, Johnny could have been predatory, but at no point is he. He's just this guy who it doesn't really matter actually what he is, because this film is babies, so we see him through her eyes.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:01

We see him as this very sexy man who is vulnerable and raw and that's sorry for interrupting. What I liked is they did show him as very vulnerable. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's not like he's just this big, like tough guy, you know, dancer and stuff. It's character, the w the warmth you can get from the characters because he is massively vulnerable.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:25

Yeah, exactly. He puts on a facade, it's it is, and you kind of get the impression that up until that point he's basically been sleeping with people like rich people who've given him money because he has to, it's almost expected, but kept quiet, but not sleeping with the daughter of the friend of the guy who owns the place. You know, it's like it's all these rules that are sort of unspoken. But this is Baby's story because she's the hero in this story in so many ways. So she does the dance and learns it to help someone out. She gets the money for penny, she gets her dads to help in the night. All this, you know, with no thought of her out the consequences to herself. She shows Johnny that he's worth standing up for. She stands up to her well-meaning but overprotective family, shows them she's stronger than they assumed. She's just a legend. She's just, yeah, her growth in this film is phenomenal. Johnny's growth is pretty good. The dad's growth is alright too. You could say Max even grows a little bit by realising that you know the holiday camp days are numbered and this is not the way the world is.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:19

You need to change the holiday camp to incorporate more that people will still come there.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:23

I just think I think Max is gonna retire, and then I think he's gonna hand it over to Neil and Neil's gonna have to sell them and fuck it up. Yeah, because he's gonna have no money.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:30

Yeah, which is fine. So I I also think it's um massively convenient that um baby wore the right dress to dance with at the end, that was very flow, and also put matching coloured knickers on for the dresser when she's spinning around. That's you kept the dignity at the end.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:46

I just think you're just overthinking this. This is just a nice they're all dressed in ball gowns. Anyone could have done that dance. You said it before, but one other thing that is brilliant is the soundtrack. Yeah, it rocks. Um, what I love about this is so when this was on in Christmas 1990, which was like the network premiere to to view, I think it was ITV, can't remember. Um I've had the time of my life got re-released in the charts. I remember it. I looked it up, it got to number eight in January 91.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:14

Right. So that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:15

Since it'd been out a few years earlier.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:16

I would pretty much say, right, this this soundtrack, it's probably great at weddings now. The floor fillers. So if you hear I'm the time of my life, it makes you want to get up.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:28

Yeah, but junk people doing the lift is not a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:30

Well, everyone tries. And everyone does try, it never happens. Yeah, I've been there. Um and I didn't put baby in the corner. Um, I think the soundtrack is generational, you know. My daughters who are a different generation still listen to this soundtrack. They pull songs out of this. It's a great soundtrack. Um, you know, they know the time of their life, they know this. My daughters have seen Dirty Dance and they wanted to see Dirty Dancing of their own accord. It wasn't like, oh, I think you should watch this great film, which a lot of the films probably maybe dead influences. Like I've pushed my influences on them, but this was one they wanted to watch themselves. So it is like a rite of passage for young women, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:12

I think so. Do you want to hear other people's thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:15

Ours are better than theirs. I've got a few.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:18

There's a piece in The Guardian from 2020, and it's called my favourite film, Age 12, Dirty Dancing, by Anne Lee. And it's really interesting because I think basically she says what I thought. Something else I'd forgotten is just how feminist it is. Baby is smart, has a strong moral compass, and generally wants to help other people. She stands up to her disapproving dad, who is angry that she's been seeing her working class lover behind his back with a moving speech about inequality. And Johnny may scoop her out of a corner, but it's Baby who ends up saving him, not the other way around, in a reversal of the well-born romantic trope. He she's the one that sticks up for him after he's falsely accused by a jealous ex of stealing someone's wallet, while he reveals to her in a scene of aching vulnerability that he was the one who was taken advantage of by the rich older women clamoring to seduce him. And it's like I was saying earlier, when you see their physicality in that seduction scene, she's tiny, he's massive. It doesn't matter because ultimately she is the one with the power who helps him. She helps him. He's not the rescuer for her, she rescues him.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:20

But also, you know, in stark contrast earlier in the film, we we touched upon the scene of uh Lisa and Robbie walking out the woods where she's hugely disappointed that he's tried it on. She's like fixing a clothes. Yeah, I think he's a bit fancy. It's like it shouldn't have happened. She's and he's like, Oh, come on, and he's got a cob on because it didn't happen. And and like it's showing like Lisa's a bit vulnerable there. The scene with Johnny and Frances, we will call her by her name now. Francis. Um, she's taking control. That that line, as you said before, and I can't repeat the line because I can't remember the whole line. If I leave this, I'm afraid I'm afraid I'll never feel this. My whole life do I feel it when I'm with you. She's took control in that moment, yeah. And it's just like the spark is lit.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:06

Yeah. There's a piece by uh it's called Themarysue.com, Dirty Dancing is a feminist masterpiece, and they specifically look at the abortion storyline, and this is hugely feminist. And so I think because 1987, when this film was made, it felt like it was just a done and dusted, um, accepted uh fact that abortion was legal, available, medical. And obviously now that's been rolled back. But in 1963, it was also not legally uh easy to get hold of. So it openly tackles the fact, this the film, that Penny's choice was nearly taken away from her by legislation and that she has to have to turn to less than safe means to get her abortion. This is a quote, by the way, from this piece. Uh it does not shy away from the horrifying reality of her situation, but rather forces audiences to face it head on while luring them in with the promise of a seemingly light movie. And then uh this carries on to say how it the another feminist take on abortion is that none of the characters shame Penny for her choices. No, which is good because you think about that now, it would be so even if you put it into a a series, a drama, even you know, like not a kind of rom-com, whatever. You put it into a drama, people would different characters would be have opinions.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:19

Yeah, and I like that no one does. And it and it's like I like to see she fell for the wrong guy, as simple as that. And no nobody judged her on it or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:31

You know, it helped, everyone helped her when they could. Yeah, it's fabulous. I didn't didn't really appreciate that until I read that. That no one questions her choice, no one says, Are you sure you want to do that? Yeah, no one questions whether it's the right thing to do, it's just what she has to do, and yeah, I thought I thought it was incredibly feminist actually, in hindsight, and I'd never given that any thought. There's also a lot of class commentary which I've kind of touched on, which kind of stood out to me loads when I was watching it this time. Um, Baby comes from a wealthy family, Johnny is living paycheck to paycheck. This is still from that piece that's called themarysue uh.com, which will be all in the show notes, all these links. Baby calls out her father. This is a quote. Baby calls out her father for a seeming lack of empathy for others who are not in the same social position. It's a lot more subtle than the abortion plot, but it's woven throughout the film and it allows a nuanced discussion of some time that could turn into an after-school special. It feels like you could really look at the class differences and the way they depict it, and we talked a little bit about the racial component of that earlier. Just how I guess is this. I mean, I'm assuming this is a reflection of 1963, America, in that you know, the civil rights movement was huge, that was a real thing at the time. But I just yeah, I find it really interesting that Johnny has looked down on that all the kids who are dancers in the underground dance hall are not part of the mainstream final concert. They're not the waiters and Neil on stage and Max. They are just around the edges, around the periphery, even though they're in the work there and they're part of the team, they're not involved. It's like a two-class system, it's fascinating. Really fascinating. The whitepages.net is a website, and there's a piece called Out of the Corner, and this is about the Jewishness of dirty dancing.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:16

See, I've never touched upon that.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:17

I found this such an interesting piece. That's a hard, it's really long. I know you're never gonna read it. You should read it, everyone should read it. I found it fascinating. It's about racial identity in dirty dancing. And the point early on that the woman, I think it's a woman who wrote it, makes is that nobody really considers this a Jewish movie, but anyone who's Jewish knows it's a Jewish movie, which I thought was quite interesting. Also, what I didn't know is that in the original script it was so much more overt. So this is a quote. Well, the original script is full of Yiddish and lines like, I forgot you read from a different Bible, and Jews hate Catholics, both spoken by Johnny in the original script. The final version of the film has none of that. The writer Eleanor Bergstein supposedly based the movie on her own childhood experiences visiting the s the cat skills, and the dog whistles to other Jews can be found in the final cut. Jews know the movie is about Jews. We recognise the Cat Skills resort culture, the themes of overvaluing education, the focus on civil rights. We recognise Jerry Orbach, the actor who played Baby's father as having Jewish blood. And it kind of carries on like that. Now I knew the Cat Skills were supposed to be like a Jewish resort from other books I've read and stuff. So I kind of knew that, but I don't know if I knew when I was 12.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:29

But I found it really interesting that it's never I've never looked at it in any other way of just it's a romance. Sabian Janny.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:36

Yeah, but I think that also plays into the fact because I was that this whole piece goes into how back in 1963 um Jewish people were much more concerned about civil rights for black Americans, um, but not so much for other immigrants, and that that comes through in the film in that um so in the opening when they just arrived at the resort, um, and uh Lisa's forgotten something, and a dad goes, This is not a tragedy, a tragedy is police dogs used in Birmingham, and that's like a quote that's about you know the civil rights protesters and stuff, and police dogs is all horrible. So he's aware of that, and that's like his kind of that's where his sympathies lie, but he's not sympathetic to anyone who is just sort of that that's like that is the sort of the forefront of the civil rights struggle, not any other immigrant who looks down on people who he perceives as not good enough for his his daughter. Fascinating. And then there was an interview with Eleanor Bergstein who wrote this, and really interesting how she talks about how um so this is in the Vice, Vice.com, the back alley abortion that almost didn't make it into dirty dancing. There was a lot of pressure for it to cut that storyline.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

Really? Yeah. Well, I would imagine in 1987, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:46

She said, this is her quote, I left the abortion in through a lot of pushback from everybody, and when it came to shoot it, I made it very clear that we would leave in what is for me very purple language, references to dirty knives, a folding table, hearing penny screaming in the hallway. I had a doctor on set to make sure the description of the illegal abortion was right. The reason I put that language in there was because I felt that even with it being a co-tanger abortion, which is horrible, a whole generation of young people and women especially wouldn't understand what the illegal abortion was. So I put in very graphic language and I worked very hard on shooting it to make sure it was shown realistically. And it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:21

I do feel like it's like it really hits how it hit so much harder watching this now, because you know that this kind of stuff must be happening more than it ever has done in decades.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:33

Did you check what Roger Ebert said?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:36

I didn't! I didn't because I had so many other things to say. I've I only go to him when I'm struggling for stuff. I don't know what he said. It doesn't matter what he said, because we have loads of other things. The final thing, um, Eleanor Bergstein said, well, not the final thing, but the final bit I've noted. And again, it's about the abortion storyline. Um the question was you mentioned that you had younger women in mind, particularly while making daily dancing. What did you hope the young women would learn about abortion from the film? And then she says, and this is from I think it's from before Roe v. Wade being overturned. I hope that they would learn not to take it for granted. I hope they wouldn't know what it was like before there was a legal abortion. They didn't know, because if the mothers had had illegal abortions, they didn't tell them and they'd never heard of it. They grew up as Planned Parenthood babies. When they were 14, they went and got pills from Planned Parenthood, so they really didn't know. You can make a serious film, and only people who agree with you will see it. You can make a film about true love and wonderful music and pretty dancing and sexy people and have in it a lovely girl who ends up with a dirty knife and a folding table screaming in the hallway, and maybe you understand it. So I was concerned to do it that way.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:38

So basically, this is an abortion movie. It's an abortion movie. It's an abortion movie but rather dancing.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:44

I love that she s of snuck it in. Yeah. She was like, you know, if you did a serious film about abortion, nah, people just you're only gonna convert people. You won't convert anyone, you'll only people will watch you agree with you. You put in pretty, what is it, pretty people or sexy people and pretty dancing. Oh, I love it. I love that. Because she did fabulous.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:04

It's just really, really cleverly done.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:14

So this was supposed to be the last part of the series. Now yeah, but we did discuss doing the trilogies. Yeah. Do you want to just remind everybody what the trilogies were?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:27

Um before sunrise and we've done before sunrise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:31

And we're going to do Before Sunset and Before Midnight.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:36

Yeah, because I always make jokey names up for them.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:40

You want to do some other ones that I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:42

Empire Trikes Back on the Return of the Jedi to complete the original trilogy.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:46

Okay. So we'll come back with those in a few weeks. Yeah, in a few weeks. Get ourselves together. Because this is officially the end of series two.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:54

I think this is this is the final episode of series two. We are now planning series three. But I think we'll record the before uh episodes and the Star Wars episodes before we released them. So it could be five or six weeks away before we release these. Uh, and then we'll we should be on the beginning of starting to do series three because we need to plan our films and discuss that.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:18

We do. And if people want more, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:21

They can find me on Toffees Arrows on YouTube and Phil Time on TikTok.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:26

And I'm at NikkiBomb.com, or you can look for the Lisa McAuliffe stories online. Thanks for listening, and until the next time, bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:33

And don't forget, don't put baby in the corner.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:35

My god