All The Presidents Men

This week, Nicky has chosen to talk about ALL THE PRESIDENT’S MEN (1976).

Written by Carl Bernstein, Bob Woodward, and William Goldman, and directed by Alan J Pakula, ALL THE PRESIDENT’S MEN is a love letter to journalism. With Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman playing the tenacious reporters on the scent of Watergate scandal, this film combines routine procedure, the tiniest of details, along with thrills and chills as our heroes search for the truth. 

That’s Nicky’s view, anyway. She returns for a rewatch on a yearly basis. And Phil? Who knows? Listen to the episode and find out.


References mentioned, and wider reading…

Substack by John Devore about the realities of journalism -https://150wordreviews.substack.com/p/essay-all-the-presidents-men-1976

Medium post by Syifa Abibi - 
https://medium.com/theuglymonster/all-the-presidents-men-the-washington-post-vs-richard-nixon-22c8848e20f3 

George Clooney’s opinion - 
https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/movie-george-clooney-called-cinematic-perfection-perfect-film/

Info about the split diopter by Jo Light
https://nofilmschool.com/split-diopter-all-presidents-men

Steve Buttry’s comparison to Spotlight - https://stevebuttry.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/spotlight-a-generation-later-echo-of-all-the-presidents-men/

Interview with Alan J Pakula - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DyeWjsutZE

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:08

Hello and welcome to Light Camera Aggro, the podcast with two friends, one film and very little agreement. I'm Nikki, and this is An Honest House.

SPEAKER_04 0:18

And I'm Phil. And you better do it right, or I'll get really mad. This week it's Nikki's turn to share movies two loves, and today she's brought the 1976 film All the President's Men.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Oh, that will come soon enough, but first, how has your week been?

SPEAKER_04 0:33

Wow, where do we where do we start? Um obviously this this podcast has been delayed a little bit. My daughter's had an operation and been dealing with that and stuff. She's really brave, really strong. Good for her. She's done really, really well. Um, but still still ongoing at the moment. At the end of the football season, so I've appeared on podcasts. Did you see me on the Beatle Palace podcast? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Um you pop up.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

Yeah, that that was a very, very last minute thing. Ellie messaged me. Uh she's on the the forum that I'm on with the Finalysis app. And she said, Are you free? I said, Well, I said I've got half an hour after work tomorrow uh before I go and see my daughter. So we'd be squosing in then. Uh so that that was good. And it's the most watched video she's got on her YouTube. Um so done that. I went to see the Michael Jackson film. Oh managed to get that. That was really good.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

No, it should never have been made, surely. Yeah, good. Surely it shouldn't be made.

SPEAKER_04 1:34

The thing it's criticised for are the things that are not in the film because the film finishes before any of the controversy starts.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

I didn't know where it was gonna be, but I saw the trailer and it made me feel so icky, so icky that someone has decided that that is how they're gonna tell his story.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Well, that's his story up to that point.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Well, it's not because there's all sorts of things that presumably they've whitewashed over and sanitized, because who knows what was going on behind closed doors.

SPEAKER_04 2:01

Well, it tells a bit about his music. That's it. I couldn't cope. I've also um my other YouTube channel I started. Do you remember me, Star Trek one? Um, you have mentioned it very, very briefly. The last 90 days had four million views. Okay, so it's going very, very well.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

Um, it's just putting little clips of Star Trek up and then the odd bit here and there talking and stuff, but yeah, it seems to be well engaged.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

But here we've got proper content. So we've actually got I mean we've we're creating ourselves.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

Yeah, we're actually love doing this.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

I mean anyone can share a clip. This is like us actually making something.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

Yeah, but I do talk about it on there. So Okay, okay. So yeah. And how about you?

SPEAKER_02 2:48

I believe something little's gone on in your life as well. Well, my book came out finally, finally, finally. So Lisa McCulliff is branching out, it's now available online at online booksellers. It was an absolute stressful few months trying to get it over the line. It eventually is, and I'm very, very happy that it's there. So it's the third book in the Lisa McCulliff series. You don't have to have read the first two, but they're all there if you want to.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

So it's a trilogy.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

It's a series, there will be more.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Oh, so that was my next question.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

There will be more, yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

And and I'm starting the next one in a few months.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

So have you mapped out a story of where you're taking the whole journey of the series to go to, or is it just as it inspires you as you go along?

SPEAKER_02 3:29

I know where it ends.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Um, but it doesn't end for a few years. So I've got I haven't I haven't gone into the ins and outs of the plot of each book yet, but I yeah, vaguely roughly know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

I'm looking forward to the prequels, you know, the the kindergarten years and things like that. Um but yeah, I like seeing all your contents online got me really excited.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Oh, cool, excellent. I hope it gets other people excited as well so they will buy it.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

I'm sure they will buy the book.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

So before we start, remember to drop us a like and subscribe and share your comments below. And don't forget, this is going to be full of spoilers. If you haven't seen all the presidents men, now is the time to pause the pod and come back when you're done. We'll be waiting. So, why did you choose All the Presidents Men, Nikki?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Right. This is not like the other films I've brought to the podcast because usually I watch them often at Christmas, often in times of happy childhood teenagers, and they remind me of, I don't know, my youth or something. This I don't even remember when I first watched it. Probably in my twenties. Um, don't remember feeling amazing things about it the first time I watched it, but this is something that I have returned to time and time again, and I probably watch it once a year now, and I feel like a real need to watch it once a year, and I've grown to love it over time, and I really do love it. Um the reason I initially brought it for this pod is because when we were talking about the films for this series, Robert Redford had just died. So it's going back to like last November, I think, October, November. And I all I knew was everyone was talking about Butch Casting the Sundance Kid, or um or the Marvel movies he's in.

SPEAKER_04 5:10

Is he? Yeah, he's in Marvel.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Oh well, no one was talking about that. You'll be not surprised here. They were talking about his other ones. Um, but you know, his work on the Sundance Festival and his founding of that, and all these great things. And all I wanted to do was watch all the presidents meant. That is what absolutely roots me to him and his work, and I really, really like this film. Um it's obviously it's based on the book by Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, and I have read the book, but only a long time after I'd seen the film many times. So the book is very it's pretty faithful, you know, so it does feel like it is historically accurate. Obviously, you know, it Hollywood has got involved, but you know, it's historically an accurate tale of the uh the of the Washington Post reporting of Watergate. Um, but I just find possibly more and more as real life politics gets ickier and murkier and grimmer, I feel drawn to watch this more and more again just to show how good people with good intentions working hard can ultimately eventually after lots of diligence sort of get to the truth. That's what I think is what drags me back every time. Yeah. What about you? Have you ever seen it before this?

SPEAKER_04 6:26

First time first time I'd seen it. Well, I've seen it several times now because we obviously had to delay the podcast a little bit so refreshed my mind. This feels like to me, the first time watching it, it feels like a prequel to my one of my favourite films, Spotlight. I know, Spotlight's gonna come up a lot in this chat, I think. I knew it would. Yeah, without a doubt. I was watching it that first time. I was like, they've copied Spotlight, but obviously way before Spotlight.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

But the the vibes, the vibe is exactly the same. Obviously, when they made Spotlight, they've used this film as a template.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Oh, absolutely, and that was referenced a lot at the time in reviews, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

Um I mean this film could have used a little bit more of Mark Ruffalo going off, you know. They knew, they knew, and they didn't tell us. Uh, but yeah, first time seeing it. Uh I knew about the Watergate scandal, but I didn't know about it in depth. Okay. I just knew I knew Nixon had to resign, and I knew it was over Watergate, but I didn't know what Watergate was. Interesting. So this is interesting. This was great to watch for me seeing all this. Uh maybe a slightly spoiler towards the end. Um but yeah, I think I I didn't know you know much about it. You know, I'm not big on American history of politics or something. Obviously, as you just mentioned now, the murky times at the moment, we we we all have to take a big interest in what's happening over there and what's happening over here because I feel like it's it's kind of filtering across a little bit, but we'll get into that later on.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Okay, so I'm not well how can I start this? If I went through every single bit of this plot, it would be a very dry pod.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

It would, then it'd be very long.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

It'd be very long. So I'm I'm just I'm p I'm gonna go in chronological order of sort of key things, really. But I don't think we can go through every single tiny thing because it's a lot. They pack a lot into the two hours twelve minutes or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_04 8:24

Two hours eighteen.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Oh, is it? You counted every one of those minutes.

SPEAKER_04 8:27

No, it just says here on the sheath. No, I did actually check when I watched it, um how long it was.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Okay, but what I like is the very opening bit of it is it just gives us context, it shows some real life footage of Nixon.

SPEAKER_05 8:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

So we know where we are. It actually says June the 1st, 1972, we see Nixon arriving back um on a helicopter. I think he's gonna make an address in Congress. He's full of smiles, he's you know, he's riding high. What I like, and they do at the end as well, is when they they show it's uh June the 1st, 1972, the date is typed with typewriter keys with sounds of gunshots with each one. It's really effective. It's like the power of the written word, it's beautiful. And they do it at the end with the uh the final bit as well. So it but it sets the scene. We know we're in a true story, we've got real life Nixon doing a little arrival, and that's where we are. And I kind of like as well, this was only made four years after.

SPEAKER_04 9:21

I know that's one thing I wanted to touch upon. Like, you know, has there ever been like such a huge political event like this and a movie made so quickly afterwards?

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Well, off the top of my head, do you remember when you made Kenneth Branner with Boris Johnson in the COVID kind of? I mean, that was quite soon after.

SPEAKER_04 9:37

That was more like a TV drama. It wasn't like major Hollywood production, and it was made before like we even knew the end of it, I think, as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

I think I think by the time it came out, I don't know if Johnson had resigned by then, but there was definitely a kind of you didn't even get to the bit where big bigger things have happened, you know what I mean? Uh okay. So the actual sort of filmed action starts, and it's an empty office block at night, and there's a robbery taking place. And this opening, I think, really sets this film up to imply this is not just a sort of true story about historical events uh or political events, even. This is it's like a thriller. This is like a thriller. There's a robbery taking place in this empty office block. A security guard spots tape across a locked door so he knows that something's going on, and calls the police, and then this plainclothes group of police officers who are in like kind of um I don't know if they're undercover or plain clothes, but they're in like sort of Hawaiian shirt. Yeah, if you're a bit like speaking. Why are you getting the nose? Why you look at each other? So they have to get a go in. But it's a really creepy vibe. There's all like torches in dark corridors, and sort of burglars are hiding, and like can hear hear someone's coming in. It's all very tense, it's quite drawn out, and there's not much noise, hardly any dialogue. And it really builds and builds until there's a bit of movement and the police spot somebody and they sort of basically make them come out, and these burglars are exposed. That is the Watergate burglary. That's it in the opening. And like I say, it sets up like it's a thriller, and there's various times in this film where it really does feel like a thriller, a political thriller that's made up, and the tension in the filmmaking of it all. And I do, I just love those moments.

SPEAKER_04 11:19

The two and froing from I I'll I'll put it as good versus evil in this, you know, like obviously the the bad guys in this, the obviously real-life bad guys who were trying to trip them up along the way and make them disbelieve the story. Uh it's it just worked really, really well. And that set up, as you just said, was a great start to the film.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

It really feels like we don't know the half of what goes on in politics, particularly um, you know, now. You know, the bits we know can only be the surface, you know. When you see stuff like this, that's just commonplace.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

The funny thing, through right throughout watching this, it's funny because when you look at it, if this happened now, all you will get from over there is like fake news, fake news. I know. And because of social media, social media's gonna come into relevance a lot, I think, when we talk about this. Social media, people just believe whatever is said, and it's now like it's like there's a cult, you know, with with sides. If the red sides that says this, it's uh you know, obviously that that's fake. If the blue side say that, that's fake. And there's a lot of that at the where this I quite like the era of what this was set in because once it was in the newspaper, you made your own mind up that it wasn't pumped at you through social media.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

It definitely shows the importance of independent news, yeah, as opposed to, you know, a billionaire owning you and paying good for you know donating to a political party and all that stuff. So Bob Woodward is played by Robert Redford. I would say, without wanting to objectify, Robert Redford is one of the most beautiful men in the world, and he is just beautiful in this because of his actions and the personality of Bob Woodward as much as anything else. But I love how mu how invested Robert Redford was in getting this film made.

SPEAKER_05 13:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Um, he's not just acting in it, he's part of the whole thing. Um, anyway, he's been sent, he's a uh reporter on the Washington Post, and he gets sent to court, very normal, run-of-the-mill, boring stuff, to cover the court hearing of these burglars who have been found in this building. And he gets really quickly gets the sense that something is not right. Because um, as is as is described, a country club type lawyer has uh turned up to deal with them rather than just the this normal run-of-the-mill court guy, um solicitor. So they've got their own counsel, which Robert Reford doesn't understand why that would be. And when the defendants state their names and occupations, so Woodward, Bob Woodward, I need to call him that now, he has to strain to hear, but he hears that one of them say he was a security consultant for the CIA. So Woodward goes, Holy shit. So even if we don't know any of what that means, the fact that the reporter is a bit sort of.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

Hang on, hang on, something's going on here, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Yeah, it's like he's like, What? And so I think what this film does really well is first of all, it treats its audience like they're intelligent, it doesn't spoon feed us, which I love, but also, I mean, certainly the first many times I watched this film, I didn't really know the ins and outs, I just let it wash over me. But Bob Woodward says, Holy shit, so we know something is wrong. And that's like it's yeah, signposts like that are helpful, I think, because this is quite an involved film and where they throw a lot of information at you. Um, but it's clear this is more than just a silly burglary by some chances. I really like films I've realised that are set in newsrooms. I love a newsroom, particularly one a little bit back in the day where it's not all emails, and you know. So we see the Washington Post newsroom, it's exciting. I think I want to be a journalist, but I think my era of wanting to be a journalist is gone because now it's not really like that.

SPEAKER_04 14:47

And then you know be an independence, you can get your own you can get your own journalist card and write your own things and put them online.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

I would have no well, yeah, I could, but that wouldn't be journalism. I'd have to be trained and have to know properly what I was doing, and I'd want to work with like you know, people who'd were, I don't know, wanting to change the world, not just like put any old shite out, you know.

SPEAKER_04 15:05

The open university.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

I think the era of the journalism I like is gone.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

I think that's the problem.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Yeah, I I think the newsroom local news desks are not how they were, you know, everything's clickbait.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

I mean, you can't yeah, well, everything is clickbait. Uh you know, the amount of headlines that you see now, you click on it and you read the article, and it's got nothing to do with the headlines.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

I know.

SPEAKER_04 15:25

Um but I think newsrooms such as this are not that way anymore because I wouldn't imagine Lord Just Work at home now.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Well, yeah, I mean it's yeah, exactly. But I do love a film set in a newsroom. I I've realised this. This is not something I I think until we did this podcast, you know we had to do Superman.

SPEAKER_04 15:41

But oh I was just about I was just about to say it reminds like the newsroom we're just hearing the typewriters go, it reminds me of those scenes and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

I love it so much, but you know, there's loads of films that aren't Superman. Um but I really like, for example, this made me want to watch the post that came out 2017, I think. Or um obviously we talked about Spotlight. But the point is the newsroom feels like a classic newspaper newsroom, but I don't know if that's just because that's exactly what it was like, and that's it's telling us the the truth. But the powers that be in that newsroom, they're not so keen on Bob Woodward being on this story because he's inexperienced. Um and he has an immediate boss, Rosenfeld.

SPEAKER_04 16:22

Well, he's only been in the newsroom for nine months. Yeah. They state that nine months as if it's an issue.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

His immediate boss, Rosenfeld, Jack Warden, who obviously I love from While You Was Sleeping.

SPEAKER_04 16:34

And I like him from is it um Crazy Like a Fox, the TV series? I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Yeah, he's a yeah, he's just lovely, lovely soul from While You Was Sleeping, and here he's like kind of deciding whether people do stories or not. Um he kind of bats for him and he says, No, you keep going. And he's trying to convince his uh the other colleagues to let him do this story. Um, Carl Bernstein, as well, who is Dustin Hoffman, also wants in on the story.

SPEAKER_04 16:58

And I will also add to this, right? You say about how good um Robert Redford looked. I don't think Dustin Hoffman's ever looked better than that. No, these are Dustin Hoffman needs long hair.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

These are in their absolute virile prime, and it and it works though, they're hungry reporters. I think they're youthful, yappy, hungry reporters who are.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

Exactly, but also in acting terms, the way they bounced off each other was really, really good. You know, obviously you can see two great actors on screen and think the chemistry's just not there. This was just it was bang on, bang on.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

And it feels like, and I don't know what I don't know personally what either of those actors was like in real life properly, but it does feel like there's a sort of a couple thing going on in terms of Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. Woodward is slightly more, it seems more ethical. Bernstein seems like he'll kind of flirt a bit to get to get a lead or will be a bit pushier. Um I like the dynamic. Have you ever seen them both in real life interviewed and stuff? They're still going. Yeah, yeah, they're still doing that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 17:53

Robert Redford was.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

No, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

Oh right, no, no, actually. No, I've not seen them reports.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

They're still around doing this. I was gonna say, how's Robert Redford still doing interviews? That's some crazy shit, man. But no, they're yeah, they're yeah, they're interesting. They've you know, they've done that, done their time, they know their stuff. But the question anyway is why are these burglars planning to book the Democratic headquarters because that's what the building was, and who sent them, and also who cares? Some some people in this newspaper don't really know if this is a story. Anyway, what I think is brilliant about this film, one of the things, is we get to see close up the drip drip drip effect of the journalistic process. You see a kind of an extended scene where Bob Woodward is on the phone with a yellow legal pad, and he is ringing and he's making notes, and then he's ringing that number and he's making notes, and he's circling things and doodling, and then he's ringing another number and he's getting forwarded to someone else.

SPEAKER_04 18:50

He's just getting little tiny breadcrumbs, and and as as he's the phone calls are going on longer and longer, the bread crumbs just get bigger and bigger and bigger. But he's knows something.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

He knows he's not right and he's investigating it, but he doesn't know what, and none of us know well, none of us know what, except we do, because we know what happens in real life. Well, you did but as we're watching it, we don't we're none of no one in the newsroom can see the bigger picture, no one has a bigger clue. No, it's not like someone has seen the president caught in the act of doing something and now he's trying to find the evidence. We see that sort of I think there's a story here, but I don't know. So I'm going to look. And it's such a methodical way of finding out information. And I and I do again, this is Spotlight is gonna come up a lot. Spotlight's similar, I think, in that it's pre-internet, just the internet is there.

SPEAKER_04 19:40

The thing with Spotlight, I don't think there's enough of this type of um investigation within the film, you know, on the phones, finding this out, finding that out. You get you in Spotlight, you see some good interviews where they meet some of the victims and things like that, but the bits of the phone call I could have used a little bit more. This was perfect, this was really.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

I just think it seems like I just think Spotlight showed that things have slightly moved on. There was a sort of internet or a date, they were typing the computer more. Yeah, um, it was the early days of the internet, because I'm but you know, I don't know. I th I feel like this gives us a real insight anyway into the journalistic process. Lots of double checking, lots of calling, making notes, and I find it really comforting seeing those details that good people will fix things eventually, and it will take a long time and they'll have to battle the powers that be. So this is now considered to be a story, and it's risen up the ranks. It's no longer a police story, it's now Rosenfeld and Simmons, who are the two senior journalists, they are debating in the office whether or not Woodward should have it. He's just keeping typing because that's what he's been told to do until he's taken off it. Uh, and he's at his desk typing away, and there's this scene where every time Woodward types up a section, he puts it in the out tray, and then he watches Bernstein walk over, take it, and move back to his desk and carry on typing it. Uh and when Yeah, it was interesting that I was like I like this the way they're kind of put together at this point. And when he confronts him, he says he's polishing it, and then after reading Bernstein's copy, Woodward agrees that it's better.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

So this is But I don't like the way you did it. Yeah, yeah. And I thought that that was interesting, that because it didn't show that they're just two good mates work and no, no, no, no, they're not friends particularly. The opposite ends trying to make the story better.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

So at that point, Rosenfeld comes out of his office and says, They're both on the story and don't fuck it up.

SPEAKER_04 21:23

Yeah. But this is the thing, I think the way it was all done is like if this fucked up, it was on them two, nothing. Absolutely. At this point, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

So this was made in 1976, and it's about 1972, and it's obviously set in the newsroom. It is very bloky.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I also think uh like from watching it, I've got some kind of lung disease off the amount of times that Dustin Hoffman smokes. There's a lot of cigars. I think I've got just just watching it. I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

I think that's life, innit, really? But this film is on for 23 minutes. Before we see our first woman. I did make a note. Right. And it's someone that's women in this film?

SPEAKER_04 22:06

It's someone that used to work for Colson, who was there asking for uh was it security detail? I can't remember. Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Um we see we see both Woodward and Bernstein talk to her, and Bernstein flirts with her, and he is a bit icky when he's doing this. He's obviously he's he's not trying to have sex with her, he's trying to get the information. You do see the different ways of journaling, journalising that they do.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

It's like Robert Redford just gets pissed off and like he seems much more stand-up with ethics and stuff. Yeah, yeah. But like if it's just not happens, then happen where obviously um Hoffman characters a bit more like, hey, we'll smooth it out a bit.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he is flirty, and he is kind of he's got charisma.

SPEAKER_04 22:49

But without a doubt.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

But yeah, it is interesting to see, and I'd I've no idea if that's how it was in real life. I'm guessing. I would imagine so.

SPEAKER_04 22:55

I would imagine so.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Why write it otherwise?

SPEAKER_04 22:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Okay, so we need to do talk about Alan J. Pacula, he's the director, because this is one of those films that comes up in all of the you know best films ever made lists, and it is such a solid film from a di directoral point of view. There's a great shot, it gets referenced all the time, but you'll remember it. There's a great shot where they are in the Library of Congress and they're just sitting at the desk going through loads and loads of library records, it's like ticket stub things from the White House. It's just like real grunt work, and the camera rises above their heads, and they're like the Library of Congress seems to have like circular benches, so it goes up, and you see these circles get wider and wider as they get smaller and smaller, and it is such a fabulous way to show that they are in the middle of something that they can't see, and they are doing this like really basic. Let's look at these ticket stubs, let's look at these library records, and as it gets bigger and bigger, we see the ripples, which are library benches, ripples go out and out and out, and it's the size of this corruption that they don't know what they have stumbled in the middle of. And I love that shot, it's such a good shot.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

Well, I think the cinematography in this film is really, really good, and some of the things, some of the elements within this film would never be done today. Like the cloth the closing shots I'll I'll I'll reference now. It's just the TV's on and it's about five or six minutes. Yeah, and it's just them two typing.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

We will be talking about that closing shot.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

Yeah, and that's just them two typing for ages and nothing is said on screen. I don't think directors and filmmakers, or maybe even audiences, have the balls for that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Um I think there's an issue about having to make everything available for a global audience. Yeah. I think that's an issue that I think is a lot more visual as opposed to interesting nuance dialogue or in or no dialogue. I think that is maybe where an issue is. I think it has to be like successful globally as opposed to this is a very specific film about a specific period of time. Yeah. You know, I don't think this would be made today, and that's a real show. Or it'd be made, but it'd be like, you know, a TV, it'd be a three-part TV, I TV drama.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Oh, it'll be a Netflix eight-part.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

Maybe.

SPEAKER_04 25:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

But it'd all be very glossy.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

It'd be very glossy. There would be like people getting killed in the background or or reference to being getting killed. And you know, it would not be shot as this was, and and I really appreciated that. This is great. This was filmed.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Yeah, it really is. Okay, so we're gonna talk about Deep Throat. Now, now don't now don't make the obvious joke. Grow up, right? But my question is had you heard of Deep Throat, the real Deep Throat, before this film? Yes, so had I before I'd seen the film.

SPEAKER_04 25:33

So which didn't know. Can I just ask which came first? The the Donji movie or or the the name for this.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

I don't mean my business to care about that kind of thing. I don't know. I don't know, generally don't know. But this guy, I'd heard of Deep Throat in a kind of spy context before I saw this film, before I knew anything about it. And even I remember it being in the news when he died. I think it was not that well, maybe 20 years ago or something, I don't know. And it being in the news, or he got he got revealed before he died, and it was a whole thing, and it was long before I was I'd probably seen this film by then, but it was long before I was like watching this on a regular basis. But it is properly intriguing that this guy gave a bunch of help on such a secret level, and this again, you you couldn't make it up, or you could, you would assume it's made up. The kind of the the way Deep Throat is a source that Bob would have used previously about uh the Panama Papers thing that came before. Hello, it's Nikki from the future, just to let you know that when I say Panama Papers, I of course mean the Pentagon Papers. Apologies. And so he wants to get in touch with him and he tries to ring, and Deep Throat's like, don't call his number.

SPEAKER_04 26:46

Do you have to touch me on this?

SPEAKER_02 26:47

So this is a whole way he has to get in touch where he has to put a flag in a pot and he has to put Deep Throat puts a uh note in his newspaper, and it's a whole thing, and he has to get two taxis, and the it's a convoluted way to meet, and then they do meet in an empty parking lot at night time.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

It's creepy, it is creepy, but it all but also like I mean, like you said, they they have to get two taxis and stuff like because they're making sure they weren't being followed, they weren't being tracked. We're in modern day times now, it doesn't matter, they're just your camera's everywhere. Oh, you won't be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

I it's fascinating. So this is a little aside, but it does make me laugh, and I still think of it every time. When you know the car park in Liverpool one, yes, the underground one. So that car park, a few months ago, maybe six months ago, I was there, and as I drove in, it was all lit up, but then as I drove to the far end where I always park near the exit to get to the shops, the the lights were out. So the second half of the car park was pitch black, and it was pitch black, there was no light at all, and you can only see cars because of the headlights if they were moving. So I found a sort of a space and got out of my car, but it was probably like I need to sort of carefully walk because I knew I was going. There was lights where the escalator was, but not in the car park, and it was so deep throat, I couldn't even begin. And now everyone.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

But you were like, Oh my god, this is amazing!

SPEAKER_02 28:08

I've been to Liverpool one since, and even though the lights have been out or have been on each time, I am like, oh my god, it's like deep throats. There's the pillars you see, there's those big pillars are the same. It's very similar vibe when the lights aren't.

SPEAKER_04 28:18

I think it's just a multi-story car park.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Maybe but it's the only one I use.

SPEAKER_04 28:22

But the question the question is now, like, and I hadn't thought about this in in the the film in real life, was the car park chosen because the lights were out, or was it a thing like we think now we have sensors in car parks or lights come on and stuff? Was that just like it's nine o'clock and now we switch the lights off?

SPEAKER_02 28:40

I reckon. I know it's mad, isn't it? But those scenes with Deep Throat are so they're similar to the sort of the setup with the the actual burglar at the beginning, they're so full of suspense. Yeah, this doesn't feel like it's a a historically accurate telling of a thing from a few years ago. This feels like you're watching an absolute thriller, it's a thriller, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

And it's kind of it kind of like he does tell them the whole story in the end. And it's like, why don't you just tell him the whole story in the beginning, just let him get the story out of it? Well, he's fully scared of his own. I mean, it wouldn't have made a great film, obviously, if he did that, but he drip feeds him enough so that he has to investigate.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

It's very dangerous for him to be sort of linked to this, you know, because he's high up. But yeah, but one of the things deep through it says is forget the myths about the White House. The truth is, they're not very bright guys, and things got out of hand. And I've seen that quote bandied about on social media a lot in recent months, years. It's really interesting. Um, also he says follow the money, which again is like, yeah, that's decent advice. So meanwhile, there are all the papers sniffing around this story, but the Washington Post is the one that's trying to lead on it. There's pressure from the New York Times, and there've been calls made from the burglars to the committee to re-elect the president, right? So the committee to re-elect the president is called creep, so I'm gonna call it creep from now on.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

That seems very apt.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Yeah, right. Um so we see Bernstein talk to a contact at the phone company, and there's an investigation that's subpoenaed the phone records. This is all information that you kind of just let wash over your head. I'm right, I'm saying it now to kind of tell you that we meet this guy called Dardis, who is um in charge of this investigation, because it makes this one of my favourite scenes, and it's just so stupid. But it's when Bernstein is really blocked by a secretary, she will not let him get there.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

Yeah, and then she's boss! Hello, can you come to get the record, please?

SPEAKER_02 30:28

I was like, that's Dustin Huffman's right. It's like uh he's like, Oh, it must be hard when people make appointments they don't. Well, we try to do the best we can.

SPEAKER_04 30:36

Uh yeah, that's what she was great, but I didn't make the appointment he did and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

She just oh, I love that scene. There's no real reason to share about it.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

But then then Shock Hollow when he walked into the room, was Neb Beatty. I was like, Oh my god, Neb Beatty from Superman.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Oh, okay. Yes, and other films. Yeah, yeah. Oh, uh, and other films. Um, so yeah, he's so yeah, he he gets in to see this guy and yeah, whatever. But I love that scene with the secretary. I also read that that is one of the only fictional scenes for the film. Right. It didn't happen. I don't know if Dardis didn't exist or whether he did, but that secretary scene.

SPEAKER_04 31:10

Um maybe the secretary didn't exist, then I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

It's a good scene though. I I enjoy it every time.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

It it lightens up the mood because it's very, very, very serious. Like one of the issues I have with like a lot of modern films, um, and and this does this particular a lot of modern films always try and inject a tiny bit of humour in somewhere, you know, where this like wholly serious, and like you know, obviously that secretary scene, it can be seen very comical, but I can also see very frustrating the process, yeah. It's yeah, um it's another barrier that they have to get through, but yeah, just totally serious all the way through. And I really enjoyed that element of it because I do think modern films, as you just said before, they try to cater for everybody. Yeah, you can have a really, really strong political thriller, and they'll still inject humour in it somewhere, they'll try and inject romance in it somewhere and stuff, where this was just on the ball all the way through.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Yeah, yeah, I agree. There's a sort of break, the first break in the story that they get a bit of help, and it's the chain of evidence is continuing, one thing's leading to another, one chat gives another name that gives another bit of a revelation. So they're constantly trying to link the Watergate burglary with the White House because people involved seem to be linked to the White House, and it seems there are possible links to Creep. So Bernstein rings Creep, and they can't explain how a donation to them ended up in the bank account of one of the burglars. Uh, but the source, Dolberg, rings back after thinking about it and he says he gave his check to Morris Stans, who is the head of finance for Nixon. So this is a big deal. There's a potential link between the White House and the Water and Watergate, and so they manage to write that up and they make it to the front page, but it's a tiny little article below the line, below the cur the fold. But it's there, it's the first bit they've got. This is not some big massive exclusive breaking story, huge, you know, front page banners. This is just a tiny little thing. Because still, it's really, it seems it's only Woodward and Bernstein that feel like they've got they've got something and they're trying to get hold of it. The people around the editorial people in the the rest of the paper aren't that convinced. Because we see an editorial meeting with all the department heads again replicated in Spotlight, you know, and you sort of Yeah, I'm Metro, and I'm just like it's the same sort of vibe. It's a very jocular, blokey meeting. My question as always is where are the women? Um, but they're discussing the current stories being written for the pet that paper, and after lots of other things, Woodward and Bernstein's story gets uh mentioned, and the general consensus is it's small potatoes. There's not much there. Ben Bradley, who is the big cheese editor who we meet, he at the end of the meeting asks a colleague, Okay, how dangerous do you think this story is? And his colleague basically says pretty dangerous because he doesn't believe it. It doesn't make sense, the story doesn't make sense. Why would the Republicans do this? Why would they break into the Democratic headquarters? So there's a lot of doubt about this from everywhere else, but they're still cracking on, and Ben Bradley is still supportive-ish, you know, keep going, get more, see what you can do. Um, but he's tough on them. He hears about the financial stuff going on at Creeb and he's not impressed. He says, Where's the goddamn story? So that's not even enough for the for the paper. Woodward explains the money is the story, but Bradley's not convinced. So we see more ways that um Woodward and Bernstein use, more journalistic methods that they use, and again, I still think this is Bernstein more than Woodward, puts on a bit of pressure on one of their female colleagues. Yeah. No surprise. And there's a woman called Kate Eddie who works in the newsroom, and she used to see someone who worked at Creep. And so Bern Bernstein does his flirty little trick to try and pressure her to get a list of creep employees. Woodward is a lot more respectful. He still wants the same information, but he's like, Don't worry, forget it, it's fine if you don't want to. Because it's really like grim having to ask someone, you used to go out with this guy, I think they're engaged. Can you get in touch with him, please, and find out all these people he works with? Anyway, um, she gets the names. She's a happy man.

SPEAKER_04 35:12

He's basic, yeah, he's basically just typing away, and then all of a sudden, you see a female, female, put a part of the female anatomy walk past. You know what's in the now, that was address. Oh, what's that girl? Um just the the files put on its thing and just just walks up.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Furious, but he does it, you know. Um, and again, it's more journalistic investigative work where it's just tapping up who you know, isn't it, and doing everything you can, and being a bit shoddy about it. It's not nice, but you know, it's the story. But what I like about this bit, this feels like a real link to Spotlight for Spotlight lovers out there. Um we see them with this massive list of names, just names and numbers, phone extensions, and they bait they methodically go through that list. Yes, in exactly the same way that we see them go through in Spotlight the Catholic journals of all priests, and they just methodically go through each one. Check it out.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

They're looking to see why priests have been moved.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Yeah, but it's that same yeah, it's that same real. This is dull, this is boring, but this is how we're gonna get anywhere. You just have to go through, and I think that's what nothing is sugarcoated about journalism. There's no big romantic kind of dashing, oh, it's so easy, we just get a tip off and then we go and have a lunch. This is hard work, yeah, and it's constantly chasing down details.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

And then you see the phone calls as well, and this where they're they're ringing off to speak to I think it's Howard.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

Howard Hunt?

SPEAKER_04 36:37

Yeah, and then no, no, he's he's out with in the office of and they're like, hang on, why is he in that office? Yeah, and then and then they like there's moments where they get through on phone calls where you can see they're like, Yeah, we are we actually speaking to this person, you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

But people are frightened because this is getting closer now. So there's one scene where it's a woman who works at Creep and she's really friendly on the doorstep um when they first chat to her, and she's seen shredding going on at the office, but she doesn't really know what it's about. And she even laughs about how one night during the shredding, John Mitchell turned up hidden by a raincoat, and she makes a joke about how it sort of was funny that it was over his head. In the car afterwards, Woodward, she doesn't get they don't get any more than that. So Woodward's like, We're done, this is nothing here, we can't do anything. And Bernstein's like, No, we're gonna go back to that woman. And when they go back to her doorstep, she's frightened. There's been a change as someone wrung her, someone got to her, and she's like, Please leave before they see you.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Yeah, she's creepy, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

There's another there's another one in this um with a phone call where they speak to a woman and she's like, Yeah, he was here, he was here, and the stuff, and then all of a sudden it's like, No, I don't know what you're talking about. The librarian, yeah. I never said I never said that, yes, and they they never did this, yeah, and then somebody else um calls up, and no, that phone call never happens, yeah, and it's just like wow, this really happens, and it reeks of conspiracy at that point, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 38:02

It's not just like someone's mistaken or a bit vague, that reeks of conspiracy. This is such a love letter to journalism. This film, it really does just show the reality, I guess. And I'm guessing it's reality because I don't know for sure, but it feels like it doesn't sugarcoat anything.

SPEAKER_04 38:18

Well, I think I think like in in terms of integrity, this would be exactly how it would have to be, otherwise, they would have got sued the film.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, and it's based on the book that they wrote, so that I guess is all factual. Um, but yeah, it's but I like the way that you see how both of the journalists are constantly doubting themselves, doubting whether this is a story, not knowing if they're wasting their time. Is it just a wild goose chase? Are they making something out of nothing? It's that constant self-doubt as well, as like, you know, not knowing if they've stumbled on a massive thing. They have another breakthrough though, and again, it's not an it's not like a quick thing, it's a slow, a slow burn. This Bernstein knocks on the door of the bookkeeper, and she's hiding behind it as a sister opens it, but she's very hesitant to sort of get involved. And Bernstein again does this kind of hi, have you got a coffee? Can I borrow a cigarette? And sits himself down without really being invited. Um, she's scared and she knows she's being watched, but she shares details about the money and who might have known what it was being used for, and there's that line where she's obviously scared but also furious, and because this is not what she doesn't want to be involved in this, and she says, If you could get John Mitchell, that would be beautiful, and she's just yeah, get a lot of them, the bastards, and again, this is like their little way in. It's a really quiet, long, intense scene where Bernstein's talking and asking her questions, but he's really wanting her to speak, and um not and she says a few things, but very sort of one-word answers. He's trying to get information, confirmation about who is involved. He starts asking about initials so she doesn't have to say the whole name. She's really scared and she's just reduced to like tiny head nods, it head nods. It's a really long, drawn-out, tense scene. And then as soon as that is over, it's massively contrasted with Bernstein getting in the car and telling Woodward all about it. He's pulling out bits of paper that he's been writing down, he's got all this stuff, he's like jump, he's just a jumble, he's got so much stuff coming out of him, all this information that she's told him that he's gleaned, and it's such a massive difference between the previous scene. And I love that juxtaposition, it works beautifully. Um, and he just babbles away about everything that's happened, and it feels like it's a turning point. It feels like this is now they know the story and they are going for it.

SPEAKER_04 40:33

It's bigger than what they thought it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Yeah, um, definitely. And also, I don't know if you know Jane Alexander is the actress who played the bookkeeper. She was Oscar nominated for that that role. Was she? Yeah, I didn't know that. It just feels like it's such an intense. Did this win many Oscars? Um Jason Robots won Best Supporting.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

I know that. Um, I think it was nominated for a bunch of stuff. We go to the initial publication of the story, the big story. It's still very frustrating though, and Ben Bradley is losing his shit. God damn it, when is someone gonna go on the record in this story? Um, he said, You guys are about to write a story that says the former AG of this country is a crook. Just make sure you get it right.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

And it's so much at stake. So much at stake. So Bernstein rings John Mitchell, he gives him the heads up. There's a story running the next day explaining how he controlled a secret slush fund of Creep when he was attorney general. And he's pretty belligerent on the phone and he threatens them with repercussions. He makes a bunch of threats to Catherine Graham, who owns the post, and he's pretty gross about it. Uh, and there's a nice scene with uh Bradley and Bernstein and Woodward in the newsroom later on when he shares an anecdote about when he fucked up with a reporter. He checks Bernstein, did everything right on the phone call with Mitchell, and then he makes the decision that they're going to run the story. And the headline reads, Mitchell controls secret GOP fund. It's still not the full story though.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

No, not at that point.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

No, and they don't know that. They just know they've got to keep pulling this thread. They get another name from a contact, Donald Segretti, and he's been linked with several instances to sabotage the Democratic candidates. This is a whole year before Watergate. He's just been basically it sort of sounds like student activism, actually, initially. And it's called rat fucking what they do when they try to kind of disrupt uh the democratic campaigns. They go to California to see him, and he initially, Segretti initially denies involvement with Watergate, said his disruption says his disruptions were more nickel and dime stuff, but he's really scared of being jailed and disbarred. And he simply got involved because an old friend asked him if he wanted to do some rat fucking which was messing with democratic campaigns.

SPEAKER_04 42:31

And he didn't know how bad it was gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Because the old friend was the appointment secretary for the president when he asked him to get involved. So that means that's like full on rather than just a mate doing a stupid prank. So it's getting closer. Segretti won't go on the record, but he is connected to the White House. We have another meeting with Deep Throat, same shadowy parking lot as before. Um, and this again, with every meeting of Deep Throat, there's a kind of the music or the soundscape, whatever you call it, is so good at building the tension. It's like a lone bell ringing. When you're seeing Robert Redford going from taxi to taxi to go and find him, it's night time, he's walking through empty streets, he turns up at the parking lot, this lone bell just rings, and it's like it's every few seconds, like a death knell. Yeah, it's like the corruption is building, the rot is set in, we are rotting from the inside out.

SPEAKER_04 43:24

The other thing in this film I didn't expect to see was there's quite a bit of Robert Redford running in this film. I didn't expect that at all. I didn't see that in spotlight.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

But do you know there's a scene? I think it might be this bit I'm specifically talking about. Well, Robert Redford is late at night. I think he's either just been to uh he's on his way home after seeing Deep Throat and he's running, but he's walking faster and faster and faster, and he thinks someone's behind him and he's just keeps looking and looking and I'm sure that's applicated in spotlight where someone thinks they're being followed.

SPEAKER_04 43:53

Yeah, that it that was actually pretty scary because the way the way the music builds up the scenes tense and stuff, because you know they're being Watch this there's a couple of scenes I picked up on where he was sat in like a park, I think at one point, and he's talking to somebody, and it it just looks around, and you can see like people taking photos, but you can see that there's people looking at them, and like it's subtle where you know if you don't pick up. I mean, maybe I was overlooking because I was thinking people are looking at them, but there was a camera pointed at them when they they were talking on a in a public area, and it's just like being watched all the time because they knew this story, if it broke, it was gonna bring down government, and all that stuff as well.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

This reminds me similar um era film 1970s of do you ever see the conversation with Gene Hatman? No, that's it's tapping, it's um it's it's wiretapping and listening in and spy stuff, but it's very similar vibe, you know. Just like I don't know, it must be just for the era as well, does it help with that? But it all the yeah, this this whole vibe is so it's creepy, it's tense. It again, it feels like you're watching a film about a particular political thing that happened four years before. You don't expect to get all of this sort of thriller stuff going on. I do love what they do with this. So they've got to source check to death, they've got to make sure that everything they are printing is bang on the money and check, check, check again. They're so close to learning all five names so you controlled the money. The bookkeeper gave them initials and they were able to work out them. They think one of them is Holderman, but they need Sloane to confirm. I'm saying that like we've talked about Holderman and Sloan already, but this is just how it comes out, all these names.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

There's a lot of names on these films. And you don't, I mean they're all the president's men, really, isn't it? Oh, hello. Hello.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Um, Sloane said he'd have no problem if they wrote that it was Holderman. So Sloane basically confirms in that way. They'd have no problem.

SPEAKER_04 45:45

Is that is that the phone call countdown?

SPEAKER_02 45:48

Yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, is that no, sorry, that's the guy, that's um Bernstein's guy from the FBI who does that, but it's the same, uh it's the same part of the film.

SPEAKER_05 45:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Because this is where they're trying to get the get the information. Back at the office, Ben Bradley still thinks the Holdman revelation feels thin, but would but Woodward and Bernstein believe it's him. Bradley wants more proof. So this is when Bernstein calls his contact and says, if we've got it wrong, I need to hold on the story, hang up the phone before I get to 10. And he does not hang up confirmation. So they make the front page. The headline is Testimony ties top nicks and aids to secret fund. And and this is before the days of clickbait. Singles in your area. Um, this is now prominent. It is not a little piece below the fold. This is front page, massive headline. But Bradley is fuming. He screams, what's Dean? What's Dean across the newsroom? And Sloan's lawyer has denied that Sloane confirmed it was Holderman. There's a statement from the White House lagging off the post.

SPEAKER_04 46:50

The language used, yeah, stay on the phone or well no, it was a different guy.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

What it was was it's it was something to do within a committee uh hearing or a uh uh interview. It was never asked a question, so he couldn't deny it or he couldn't confirm it.

SPEAKER_04 47:04

So that's yeah, so he didn't answer the question because the question wasn't put true.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

That's right. So that's where the confusion has come because obviously, you know, uh Woodward and Bernstein are legit. Yes. That's what that's what that's that's taken as red. So at this point, the FBI contact called Joe is also backtracking because it looks like he's gone, you know, sort of now he's panicking that it looks like uh Bud and Bernstein have screwed up, but they don't know how. All they know it's backed up, they feel like they've been set up, but they don't know how. In an editorial meeting, they have to decide what to do. And Beb Bradley listens but is clear. We stand by our story. Let's stand by our story.

SPEAKER_04 47:41

I thought that was good. I thought that was that was good. That was we stand them by our men. Absolutely need to. Um there's no women in the film.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Yeah, you can that's legitimately use the word men there because don't use human or people, goodness for me, no point. Um, Woodward meets Deep Throat in the shadows again. He oversleeps, God knows how long Deep Throat was there. The story's taking its toll on them.

SPEAKER_04 48:03

Deep Throw just lived there, but his car just know what he's there.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Um but they're knackered, they're absolutely exhausted, they're running on empty. This has been going on for a while. Uh, and Woodward's at the end of his tether, he's really pissed off and he's fed up with all the evasion and the secrecy. I need to know what you know. So Deep Throat spills the beans.

SPEAKER_04 48:21

All of it.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Yeah, it was a whole operation.

SPEAKER_04 48:24

Well, if he'd have done it at the very beginning, we wouldn't have the film.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

All the intelligence agencies are involved, FBI, CIA, Justice, and Watergate was just one of the covert operations, the cover-up for the whole shebang. And then he warns Woodward that his life is in danger. And this is again, this there's a scene that follows this that feels like I've seen this in a million things that have come since. I don't know if this was the first one to do it. It's like that classic bugging scene when Woodward visits Bernstein at his house, but he just turns up the music because they cannot speak. I'm thinking of the firm, I'm thinking of schools that happens in schools.

SPEAKER_04 48:57

I'm thinking of Captain America Civil War. Um, Woodward has to type a message to Bernstein and but actually, can I just reference Captain America Civil War? I now realise is a homage to this. Obviously, exactly, but it's done exactly the same. But instead of instead of typing on a typewriter, he types it in a mobile phone and shows him.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

You know, it is a classic scene. It does, you do see this in many sort of spy type things. But um Woodward types a message and tells him about the surveillance and the boogging, and Bernstein types his reply. He's talked to Sloane who said that no one had asked him about Holderman and is testifying to the grand jury. He wanted to, but they didn't ask, and so their story was right. So they're vindicated, they know that the self-doubt can go, even though they've still got to sort of convince other people. So they wake Ben Bradley at home and they tell him, and they have to be in the garden because of the potential boogging. So he says, Go home, refresh, and then get their asses back in the gear.

SPEAKER_04 49:52

He says, 'You look really tired.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Go home, get a bath for 15 minutes, and then get back in that newsroom.' And isn't that like um when Marty Barron in Spotlight says, You've earned it, have a minute, but then come back. It just yeah, I love it. Nothing is this is what he says, nothing's riding on this except the First Amendment, the Constitution, freedom of the press, and maybe the future of the country.

SPEAKER_04 50:12

I know, I thought that was a great line. That was going to be my intro to the the uh the the you know the podcast where we say allowed, but I I didn't want to mess it off, so I didn't say it. Oh my god. You've got it written down.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

So at this point now, we get to the end. This is the ending, and the ending is so powerful. They have everything, they have their story. So we're back in the newsroom and they're typing away. And in the background, they are they're in the background, yeah. They are busy just not looking up, just clitter clutter, clitter, clutter. Is that the right name for typing?

SPEAKER_04 50:45

So, one one thing one thing I will pick up on this. Watch the typing of the typewriter. You can see none of them are clearly trained into how to do typewriters. The one finger typing.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

Oh, it's one finger, but it is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 50:56

Yeah, it's one finger typing in it, right? And you can see they're just clicking a lot of the same letters and stuff like that. Where obviously, you know more modern films now, they'll train how to use typewriters and keyboards and things, but it was it was quite comical watching them type.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

As someone who writes writes regularly, I would be so frustrated if I was trying to write with the speed that my brain thinks of my ideas with like one finger, like or one one on each hand finger. Madness.

SPEAKER_04 51:26

That's my only nitpick of the film. Okay. It's just the one-finger typing of these seasoned journalists.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

So they are typing in the background, but in the foreground, Nixon is being sworn in for a second time on the television. They keep typing, we hear that kind of noisy clappering. It gets louder and louder. It gets louder and louder, like overwhelming us, telling us the truth. The camera pans slowly into the TV as Woodward and Bernstein continue to type in the background. So we hear Nixon taking the oath. This is like a real footage as well, taking his oath about faithfully executing the office of president of the US. Meanwhile, the typing carries on and the story is being written. And so then it's a sort of an elongated scene then, and it's obviously juxtaposing Nixon's corruption and pomp against the diligence and commitment, and drudgery feels too long away. But you know, the hard work, the kind of laborious methods of having to type a whole thing out. And it's soundtracked by the gun salute coming from the inauguration. And the sound of those gunshots merges with the typewriter sound. So the very last bit is we get um words typed out like we saw at the beginning, typed out on a blank white page, full full screen now, of what happens next.

SPEAKER_05 52:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

And there's a whole bunch of things. Hump pleads guilty, Magruder pleads guilty, Kornbach pleads guilty, Chapin pleads guilty, Porter gets 30 Jays in jail. Porter gets 30 jails. I can't speak.

SPEAKER_04 52:47

30 days in jail, baby.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

Porter gets 30 days in jail. Former Attorney General Klein D. Center's a guilty plea. Colson pleads guilty, Stans amits guilt. Mitchell Haldeman, Ehrlichman, guilty on all counts. Tape show Nixon approved cover-up, Nixon resigns. Yeah. And the tight writer gunfire shot uh stops, and the credits roll in silence.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

Yeah, I thought such a great end, right? The one thing I like about this NC, and it's very comparable to Spotlight, there's no celebration of we've got the story and stuff. It's just plays out, and I love that about this film and Spotlight.

SPEAKER_02 53:22

I think as well, I don't know, I'm not trying to compare news stories here of which is a worse story, but they're both grim stories. No one wants to have found this stuff out.

SPEAKER_05 53:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

Um, it's it's bad that these things have happened, so there's no sort of yeah, punch in the air and like, we got it, yeah, you know. It's just the quiet satisfaction of I've done my job well.

SPEAKER_04 53:44

And I just I just think this is brilliant. There's no metal ceremony like Star Wars. Um, I just think this is the perfect way to end the film.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

It's very clever. I really like it. I've been pleasantly surprised by your um knowledge of Watergate. Oh no, um not at all. No, I'm pleasantly surprised by your comments so far because I get the impression that you enjoyed the film, and I genuinely thought you were going to hate it.

SPEAKER_04 54:17

No driving up here today to record the podcast, I was obviously thinking about the film, and I think out of all the films you've brought to the table, this is my favourite one.

SPEAKER_03 54:28

Oh good.

SPEAKER_04 54:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

And and what, not Peter's friends. Well, uh do you know right? I will say there's a better film than Peter's friends.

SPEAKER_04 54:37

Oh massively. And I was thinking of all the films you brought, well, what would be my second favourite? And I think it'd be Sound of Music.

SPEAKER_03 54:45

You have an old classic.

SPEAKER_04 54:48

Yeah, I shot myself here. Um, but yeah, I thought of I thought it was a really good film. And I'm shocked that you thought I wouldn't like this because you know I love Spotlight so much.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Yeah, and I thought that was my hook in. What I thought I thought you would find it dull, because there is a lot of information thrown at you. And I, you know, I it's only until I sat down to meet the notes for this initially that I actually paused it and made literal notes about who did what, where, where. And my first set of notes for this podcast were like pages and pages and pages. And I realised there's no point saying that Ehrlichman says this, and then they speak to McGruder, and no point. Because when I watch it, I don't take that stuff in.

SPEAKER_04 55:29

Well, well, I did. As you know, it was funny because like watching the film I thought, thank fuck it wasn't me who brought this to the table and have to try and explain this one. Because this is like a complex story.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

I could have done that, but it would be so dull to hear. But the fact that I it was only let's say I've watched it say 30 times in my life, let's say. It was only when I came to sit down and watch it for this that I actually made sure I understood every single bit and why they were going to that scene and who would set them off on that path. I d the good thing is you don't when you just watch it, you don't need to have followed every single thing. And I love how they do the the filmmakers, the Pacula, doesn't treat us like we're thick, it's they treat us like you can follow this, come on, keep up.

SPEAKER_05 56:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

I love that. I don't need to have my hand hand on the hand on the pulse, finger on the pulse, of every single tiny detail, but the overwhel the overall kind of effect is you see two journalists uncover a whole bunch of stuff. Um so yeah, I I definitely decided at that point we're not gonna go through every single bit.

SPEAKER_04 56:28

I just think that would have been far too much. It it is so complicated with back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

He said, he said there was the bookkeeper, let's give it her credit. Um okay, Eddie.

SPEAKER_04 56:43

Yeah, I think I think there was a like it was it'd be so complicated to break every single scene down that I'm glad you didn't, because we'd be on a four-hour podcast. But I think you know, I think it's an incredible film. I think it's it's it's one that should be in a history museum as this is one of the pinnacles of its genre.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

I think I read somewhere, and obviously everybody should fact-check me before they quote this something like you know when um different presidents have to pick a film to have in the White House presidential sort of this this gets picked a lot. Yeah, yeah, maybe not in current.

SPEAKER_05 57:17

But maybe other Democrats.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

It's well, this is the thing. I think Bob Woodward is supposed to be Republican in this. I think that I think oh, again, fact-check me, please. I'm sure he's a Republican and he's furious at Nixon, you know, that that's the kind of thing he feels like.

SPEAKER_04 57:31

Well this is this is one of the things that I got from the vibe from the way they portrayed it in the film, that there is some Republicans in this who are furious that this went on.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

Absolutely. This is not um because this I mean, this was beyond the pale. This was what you did what the the point by the end of the film where we get all those names typed up saying they went to jail, they played guilt, they did this, they did that. That feels so cathartic. Because you've you know you've it's been two hours, quite tense at times. Lots of information, lots of things thrown at you. You see the circle, a bit like the the Library of Congress benches, you see the circle getting wider and wider and wider, the ripples going further and further, and you need to see that that no one got away with it. You need that cathartic ending, you need that satisfaction. And what I like is like you say, it's no it's not somebody kind of jumping in the air and uh everyone sort of popping champagne corks. It's just enough, it's just enough. We see what happens to them in just a sentence per person. Yeah, we see yeah, they tried that shit on and they didn't get away with it. That's it. It just keeps it from being so frustrating, and it's a frustrating film in lots of ways because there's lots of dead ends and people in the way.

SPEAKER_04 58:46

People willing to give information and all of a sudden won't.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Yeah, because everyone's scared, everyone's scared. Um so okay, let's talk a bit more about it then. I've said it before, but Robert Redford is a beautiful man. Inside and out, and I love the Sundance Festival. I love I regularly love films that are from the Sundance Festival, but that's such a legacy, and I think this film is a great legacy for him.

SPEAKER_04 59:09

Yeah, I think I think would this be the pinnacle?

SPEAKER_02 59:12

I don't know if it's pinnacles. I think he's done loads of great work, but I just love this. I just think I think this film, I just think this film is boss, and I think he and to be fair, Hoffman as well, they are so utterly watchable, yeah, doing their jobs in this.

SPEAKER_04 59:26

But I was watching this and they um Dustin Hoffman got an Oscar for Rain Man, and I was thinking this should have been his Oscar film, this should have been his Oscar film because he's charming, he's intelligent, everything about I mean, obviously the complete opposite of Rain Man.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

Yeah, well, very intelligent.

SPEAKER_04 59:45

Yeah, but I just I just think you know this this should have been his his glory moments.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

When I watched this, I've watched it about eight times in the last couple months. I and I've not what it always makes me want to do afterwards, and I haven't because I've been busy, it it makes me want to watch a whole bunch of other films. It always makes me want to watch more political thrillers, real life stuff, but it also sends me to the post. So that was Spielberg's 90 uh that was Spielberg's 2017 film. And Nixon from 1995. Have you ever seen Nixon?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:15

I haven't seen neither of them films.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

They're great. Oh, you should watch the post because okay it's got a woman in it. No, there is a woman. No, okay. So what happens, which is really clever. So this is obviously all the presents men, classic, everyone loves it. Oh, everyone knows it's brilliant. And Spielberg made the post which was set real life again, Washington Post, set maybe, I don't know, exactly maybe six months before. Another thing had happened. There was another story, the Panama Papers, there was another corrupt thing that they exposed. Nicki from the future again, of course I mean the Pentagon Papers. Apologies once more. Because of Nixon. Um so what happens in that story? It's the same newsroom, Tom Hanks plays Ben Bradley, you know, you got all the same sort of reporting going on. They break the story, you watch the film, you get the end of it. At the very end of the film, it ends, Spielberg ends with I think you hear Nixon on tape. I think it might be true, saying, I never want to hear about the Washington Post again. And then you see the opening shots of All the President's Men, the burglary. You see that, he puts that in the actual shot from the film or reshotted. I don't know. So you can there's a little bit of homework. You I don't know, I can't remember. But he he homages the fact that a few months later the Washington Post isn't brought with Nixon again, and it's the beginning of that film, but it's just the last shot where you can do the thing. And I just thought that was a lovely nod. And I and anyway, I love the post because it's just another great political thriller. Um, but you should watch it because you'll if you enjoyed this, I think you will have a lot, you'll find a lot to like in that.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:50

Yeah, I'll have a look at that at some point. The thing I want to touch upon this, I did mention it earlier in the pod, is like how good this was as a time to not have social media, to not have, you know, like bots trying to push things out, you know. AI slot. Yeah, and and I just think like, you know, you don't you only have to go on to uh like an app like TikTok and you see political thing go more. And it'll be something I agree with politically, right? But then you look in the comments underneath and you just see the crap underneath in the comments, and it's just like this time's change, this time was much better for political stuff. Now, don't get me wrong, when I say better, it obviously brought down a president, but I just feel like the way people were politically engaged is different to now, and I think now it's like people don't want to have a conversation to just say you're wrong. You know, if if me and you disagree politically, which obviously we don't, back in that day we'd have a conversation about why do you think that and why do you think this? Where now it's just like trolling. Now that's what happens. There's more trolling in the world than there is conversations and things. Um I think we've got worse for it. I think social media has a lot to answer for. You know, I don't use it as much as it used to do because it's just a lot of trolling.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:19

The trouble is the converse argument to that is that it also is great at bringing people together. Now, you don't want bad people to be brought together, yeah. But it's great for people who are isolated in their communities who may feel like they don't fit in. You know, the social media I worry about the you know the the proposed ban for under 16s. Yeah, I get completely why social media. I'm glad I didn't have social media when I was 16 or under. I'm really glad I didn't. I'm glad the world didn't. But I do think that there were people who were really isolated who I knew who would have really enjoyed or uh uh benefited from finding like-minded people online.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:53

Yeah, I do get that. And these do the positive, you get some positive stories. Like I will quote a positive story, which I shared on Instagram, and then I think uh on one of your social media posts I'd seen you'd done it earlier as well about uh the banning of a pride uh march up in Durham and the the unions coming together and raising more money. And I just thought it's great when you can see things like that, but it looked underneath the comments, and then straight away it's like, well, we shouldn't be using public money for that anyway. And like, hang on one second, hang on. Hang on one second. So people going, we shouldn't be using public money for that, and then actual businesses were commenting, going, No, when this happens, our our money we take goes up, so it should be spent on that to help local businesses, and it goes back in through taxes and stuff. So it shows the disparity of the thick and the knowledgeable.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:46

I just think never look at the comments, and I never do very rarely do, maybe I do sometimes, but very quickly I'll see. Oh, the people who commented are ridiculous. End of. I don't need to see what they think. I've read a news story and I will judge the news story on whether or you know, I'll I'll make sure that it's sourced correctly. It's not a kind of random thing if I want to believe it. Um but yeah, I just don't read the comments. Don't ever read the comments, just people take out the frustrations.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:10

But I just wondered if like social media had been about back in this day how that would have been. I know it's but but I think also people were a bit more conservative as well back then.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:20

You mean they've were found it this more problematic than they might some people might not find this problematic now.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:26

Yeah. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:27

I think this would just be, you know, today's you look at what's happened, and I'm not going to name names or anything, you know, but things that have happened in the current political climate are probably not even a patch on No, I think this would just be one of many other things.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

This would just be a one day story if it even made it to the be we s we there were worse things that happen on a daily basis at the moment that you scroll past and go, Oh, great. Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:52

And then it's like

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

And wrong.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:00

Yeah. Um, and I think morals were different back then. You know, even if you you aligned yourself with a political party back then, it's like, no, I want you to do it properly. And and obviously this was shocking. No, yeah. So I don't think I don't think there'd been a president before had resigned, I don't think there's been one since. No. You know, so it shows what a huge story this this was. And in modern times, you know, and I'm not saying in the UK or not saying America, but it's just like, oh, it's fake news. And it and it's just so easy to bat away, you know. Yeah. And I think this is where social media, you know, as as rather than people go and research it themselves and go, hang on, is this fake news or not? People are just happy to just go, no, it is fake news because it was said. And I think that's what the difference is now.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

Yeah. I mean, it it's very different now. The internet has changed the world in good ways and in bad.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Maybe we need to just curb some of the bad ways with legislation and things like that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:04

Yeah, probably.

unknown 1:07:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

Do you want to hear some other people's thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:07

Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

Because I'm sick of yours.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:11

My thoughts are at all green. And I aligned with yours.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

No, just to be fair, I think this is a rare thing. A rare thing, isn't it? Right, okay, so I read a bunch of stuff and it was really nice. Like, because you know, this is not um I've never read anything about all the presidents' men before because it's not like a new release or something. You know, just nice to dive in. John DeVore has written a substack called 150 word reviews, and he talks about how it's quite funny, the realities of journalism, away from the Hollywood treatment. He said he said this film is not a true representation of journalism or of Woodward and Bernstein themselves. Um, and he's he's not being too critical, but he's basically saying Redwood and Hoffman sorry, he's basically saying Redford and Hoffman were good looking, charismatic, intense, but the real life Woodward and Bernstein look like a couple of young dentists. That's not an insult. Most journalists are ordinary people. So he thinks it's a bit Hollywoodified by having sexy actors. I don't have an issue with that personally. Um he said instead of cops or flamboyant bank robbers, all the presidents meant is an action movie with phones, not guns. That's interesting. Yeah, I like it a lot. It's it's because the power of the written word with the gunshots as he type. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:21

The thing the thing referencing the fact that they're good looking actors rather than the other thing. They are. But the names that will bring people to the theatres. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:33

They're making a film. Um and then I read another thing, uh Medium.com uh piece by Saifa Abibi. William Goldman's script is tight as hell. It addresses the issue so realistically while brilliantly disguising it as a sophisticated detective thriller. He masterfully blends boring facts with mystery, constantly keeping us involved and never losing the story.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:57

And it is a tough sell because it is really it is really just names, calls, names, calls, names, calls, meetings, charts, calls. It's it's a tough thing to write to make you be really invested in, I think. And I wonder if if someone had tried to write this pretty similar script, if it hadn't been a true story, would this have been made? And I don't think it would have been.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:20

Probably.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:20

It's beautifully done, it's really well done, but it's the benefit of being it being made because it's true.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:26

I think the thing with it is if you wrote a script like this and it wasn't true, nobody would find it believable. Because it is very out there, what happens.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:35

Yeah, maybe. The end of that article though, um, a baby says she urges, really strongly urges people to research Watergate before watching the film because she thinks that basically you wouldn't you won't get it. But what's that needed? Did you follow it basically?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:50

Obviously, because I'm hyper intelligent. I fought I followed it from the butt. If I'd have known more about Watergate, it would have been better. I did go and Google Watergate afterwards more. Um so I think that obviously tied all the bits together a bit more. But obviously, we've we've spoken about Watergate in the past, you know, just in general conversation because we're that interesting people and the bringing down of Nixon, but I'd never actually researched into it what actually happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:19

You know, and when you when you said to me, Oh, we're gonna watch all the presidents' men, it's a political thriller, right? I thought it was gonna be told from the side of the White House.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:31

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:32

I didn't know, I didn't know it was a spotlight type film.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:35

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:37

I thought it was like gonna be a political thriller in terms of like like a Jack Ryan type movie or something. And now it was at a different so what was nice, I didn't know what I was coming into and pleasantly surprised by the newsroom drama that we've done.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:54

Oh that's funny, yeah. I'd not even thought that would be how you would think, but yeah, good. Okay, you're gonna love this shit, what I'm about to say. And I didn't know about this till I researched it. Okay. So this is a web page called nofilmschool.com, and it's talking about a split diopter shot. Right, let me tell you about a split diopter shot um in All the Presents Men. This is written by Joe Light. So there was a pioneering camera shot that got used loads in this film, a split diopter. Gordon Can I guess what this is? Okay, I'm gonna tell you that Gordon Willis was the director of photography, but yes, you can. Go on.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:28

Is this where you got somebody in the foreground at all or blade in the background? Well, no, almost.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:36

You're almost right. Um it's basically like having a magnifying glass over half of your lens, which means that you can have people in the background, like Woodward and Bernstein typing at the end, and they're not blurry, but you've also got the foreground Nixon on the telly also not blurry. Because if you had it normally, you would definitely have you have to pick which is going to be blurry, but you don't have to pick, so everything is in focus. But it happens, there's a few times it happens where you've got other people in the newsroom in the background busy doing stuff, but they're not blurred while we've got focus on um on the sort of foreground of it. It's really interesting that this was like a pioneered it it was technique pioneered for this film, um, and there's loads of examples all the way through.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:18

It's good, isn't it? Yeah, it's really good. And I did like a lot of the shots where I just say, like Redford or Hoffman were typing away, and they're in focus, and everything, everything else in the shot is out of focus, and and it was so cleverly done that where it was like, yeah, you're just concentrating on them, and you're not doesn't matter what's going on in the background.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:37

Okay, but this is not what that was. Split that up. I know what you're saying. Everything is in shot, everything is not blurry. No, I know. I just thought it was interesting because, like I said, I'd seen it a bunch of times and never really given any thought to that. And then the technical, I think that's what I like about uh reading about this film, is the technical stuff was really spot on, as well as like the actual storytelling. I'm usually all about the script, aren't I? I don't really care about technical stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:02

Well, through daughter number one, she speaks to me about shots like this, yeah, because she obviously filmmaker, and in her film that she handed to for the final university what you call a fan.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:18

Dissertation is what I did, but I'm not a filmmaker.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:21

Um she had a shot, and I can't remember what the name it was, but it's it's a shot where some of that the only reference I've got is Indiana Jones and Last Crusade, right? Okay, and young Indiana Jones, he got he has a little bit of a mini adventure. The guy puts the hat on him and pulls his head down, and then as the head comes up, it's the old Indiana Jones. Okay, right? And that was like a reference shot. Daughter number one talks to me a lot about different types of shots, and I'm sure she's mentioned this as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:52

Well, now you've now you can share, share this film. She I I bet she's already seen this film, but this will be something that they studied it in.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:58

I don't think she will have, to be honest. Possibly, possibly. Daughter number one likes a lot of films that I kind of like. We have a similar sort of taste. Now she does veer off into other things that Harry Stiles has been in. But no, she she does have her own taste as well. But she's we do cross with a lot of films, like she's looking forward to watching the new Spider-Man movie with me. Um, but I don't think she'll have come across this, but I will tell her, watch this for the filmmaking side of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:34

Yeah, I reckon this will be something that would benefit, you know, maybe you know, just the technical stuff is fascinating. Do you want to know what George Clooney thinks?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:43

I would love to know what George Clooney thinks. Every podcast that we do, I think I wonder what George Clooney would have thought of this film.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:49

In 2025, there was a Far Out magazine article, and he basically calls this cinematic perfection. He said, All the President's Men really is a perfect film, and the reason it's a perfect film is you start the movie knowing how it ends. We know that Woodward and Bernstein get the scoop and Nixon gets got, and you're chewing your fingernails off throughout the whole movie. That's true. You do know how it ends, and yet you you forget that completely as you're kind of in the midst of the investigation. And then to finally finish, and I did put this in for you because I know you love spotlights, as do I, to be fair. This is a WordPress uh uh blog by Steve Butry, and it's called Spotlight A Generation Later, Echoes of All the President's Men. It's from 2024, and it's just a straight comparison, basically. Um and he makes a whole bunch of comments about what's similar, but just a few of them. So both both films depicted interviews with people scared to talk about what they knew. Both movies depicted successful working of powerful sources with inside information. Both depicted the value of teamwork, including conflict and different personalities in successful reporting, both at the reporter and editor levels. Court records provided key information in both stories. Each film includes a riveting scene of a fearful reporter running in the dark.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:05

That's why it's more I like it, like I said, there was more Robert Redford running than I anticipated in this movie. Um I would pay to see more of it. An interesting point now you you sometimes bring into podcaster Roger Ebert, what was his review?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:20

You know what? I don't even I didn't bother him with this one. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:23

I can only assume it was cinematic perfection.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:26

I can only assume you would have loved it. Yeah. I go to him when I'm struggling to find anything else.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:32

Because it's even though he's deceased.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:34

It is, but his website is very comprehensive, but it does feel like when I cov you know, if I I struggle to find things, he's a go-to.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:42

I think that I think like uh Mr. Clooney, uh, because I don't know him personally, he just references cinematic perfection.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:50

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:51

You know, and it's you know, there have been a few movies that you've brought to the table of gone, I really, really like that. But this, I think this is top bar.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:00

Head and shoulders, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:01

Yeah, yeah. And I don't know whether that is because the story itself was a true story, or it's just made well.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:11

I just think they don't make them like this anymore. I agree with that. I think a global market has bought it for everyone. And on that note, next week it's your turn to choose the film. Have you decided what it's going to be?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:31

You have never seen this, but you definitely should have.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:34

Well, that could be many that you think anyway. Go on.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:38

You referenced the great Tom Hanks before.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:40

This is Toy Story.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:42

Okay. Yeah, okay. I have never seen it, and many, many people have told me that I would like it despite the fact I don't have kids and don't care about kids' films. So I will accept that maybe it's not just a kid's film. But I've never seen it, so we'll see.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:56

But just remember, you've got a friend and me.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:58

Oh, for God's sake. If people want more, not that they would want more after that, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:03

They can find me on Toffee's Arrows on YouTube, Trek Talk on YouTube, and TikTok, Phil Timon.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:09

And I'm at Nikibond.com, or you can look for the Lisa McCaulay stories online. And I urge you to do so because there is a new one in the mix, as of last week.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:17

And I just do the show as too. I wholeheartedly back hair in this. Thanks for that, and we'll see you next time. See you later. Bye.