Lights, Camera... Aggro?
Lights, Camera… Aggro? is a movie podcast where two film fans with completely different tastes review, debate, and discuss everything from Marvel movies and Hollywood blockbusters to independent cinema, character-driven dramas, and award-winning films.
Phil loves superhero movies, action films, blockbuster franchises, and as many car chases as possible. Nicky prefers thoughtful storytelling, nuanced scripts, character-led dramas, and films that capture the beauty of real life.
Each episode features honest movie reviews, lively film discussions, and entertaining debates as they search for common ground. Can Nicky find something to love in the latest superhero blockbuster? Will Phil survive a slow-burning drama where the biggest action is a conversation?
Whether you’re into Marvel, Oscar contenders, indie films, action movies, or simply love hearing passionate film fans talk movies, Lights, Camera… Aggro? delivers funny conversations, fresh perspectives, and plenty of disagreements along the way. Sometimes they agree. More often, they don’t—and that’s what makes it worth listening.
Contact: lightscameraconflict@gmail.
Lights, Camera... Aggro?
Batman (1989)
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Hello and welcome to Light Camera Aggro, the podcast with two friends, one film, and very little agreement. I'm Phil, and have you ever danced with the devil by the pale moonlight?
SPEAKER_00And I'm Nikki, and this pod needs an enema. This week it's Phil's turn to share a movie he loves, and today he's bought the 1989 film Batman. Drop us a like and subscribe on YouTube and follow us on your podcast provider. It all helps.
SPEAKER_02All that will come soon enough, but it's season three. Yay!
SPEAKER_00It's another season. Exciting.
SPEAKER_02Did you ever think when we first recorded that first episode we would ever make it this far?
SPEAKER_00Well, I just didn't think yeah, I didn't think we'd make it be to a second episode, I think, at first. It's a long time since we've sat in a noisy coffee shop, not been able to hear, and hoping it comes out in the edit.
SPEAKER_02And the funny thing is, it's like we tried to be different and you know, podcasts were background noise and it just didn't work. I mean that's why that's why the first season, if you want to find it, it's on YouTube. It is, but it will not be up on on the podcasts.
SPEAKER_00I think what one day we should redo the films that we talked about for series one. And please don't say season. Come on. We're in the UK. Let's say series. Let's keep some standards. Yeah, I mean that'd be fun to do. I think because we had some great films that we talked about, and we wanted to talk about them like as soon as we started you know doing the pod, but we didn't execute them great because of the background noise.
SPEAKER_02I think I think maybe the film chatter that we had was good enough, but yeah, the just the background noise really and you could hear people arguing in the background chairs being scraped across floors and stuff. Yeah, I mean I do miss the coffee shop, I do miss going there and stuff. Well, yeah, neutral ground. The other the other side to it was like you're kind of aware that there was other people around where now you know we can just shout at each other if we want, you know.
SPEAKER_00Indeed. And I who knows, maybe we will at this film.
SPEAKER_02No, I can't see it.
SPEAKER_00You've you've had an interesting week.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I lost the cat six weeks ago to cat come back.
SPEAKER_00I do feel like I need to keep checking. Is it the same cat?
SPEAKER_02It is the same cat 100%.
SPEAKER_00Six weeks.
SPEAKER_02Six weeks. The he's from the hood now.
SPEAKER_00He's had a lifetime of adventures.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but it's it's good to have him back, you know. It was all jokes aside, it was upsetting. Yeah, of course it was. You know, he's a family member and stuff, so yeah, that was upsetting, but blue the cat is back.
SPEAKER_00Blue the cat. It's a cat i I don't a boy or a girl cat, not binary. Boy. Boy cat, so probably knocking up all the other cats then.
SPEAKER_02Possibly, there might be many little blues about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I feel like there's recklessness has been involved here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, in other news, because we did record the two mini pods. We did, um, but we didn't talk about what have we been doing and stuff. So just over a week ago I went to see the new Spider-Man film.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Wow, okay, what a movie. Really, really well done. The characters, the actors just yeah, blew my mind. It took a billion and six days I was reading.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02I mean, obviously it's proven very, very popular. And this is the time where people are talking like superhero fatigues kicked in as we're doing Batman Oves. You know, it shows that you make a good quality film, people will go and see you.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I guess that is one way to look at it. Because it's you know, it's not me. I've never seen any of the Spider-Man. So we talk about Spider-Man, is that who you mean? Yeah. See, they all merged together in my head, this is the problem. I have no interest in seeing it because I don't know anything about Spider-Man. However, on my Instagram, I regularly see, and more recently a lot of, promotion for it. And Tom, Holland. Holland and Zendaya love them. Think they're brilliant. They are amazing. Just love them. So I'm happy for them that it's good and that the thing that they do is brilliant. And I, you know, good, good.
SPEAKER_02But also, like in these interviews, and I love this. Zendaya and Tom Holland talk about the home life. They don't really talk about it, and I I respect that and think it's good. Well, don't you talk about it? The home life. Oh no, cool, that's none of our business. But they started talking about when he got cast in the Odyssey, uh the Christopher Nolan movie.
SPEAKER_00Also, have no interest to watch that either.
SPEAKER_02Uh I've not seen it yet. I will at some point. Oh, book. She said, like, they did a script read through one night, and it was obviously Tom's part, and she hadn't been casting. And she was like, he went, he went to work and started filming, he'd come home, and I was like, Oh my god, what's it like? What's it like? What's it like? She said look, we need to do another script through read through. And she went, But I did it last night. I don't really want it. He said, No, we need to do a script read through where I think the character she ended up playing was Athena.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Shina.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know. And he went, but you read it as Athena. And she went, Oh, and that and but it was like just the way it was. She said, like, he kind of announced to me that I was in the film, and she said, It's just they're just cute, they're just cute as anything.
SPEAKER_00They are, I think they're lovely, and I'm happy for their success.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so good for them. So, you've seen any films?
SPEAKER_00I can't remember if I've mentioned this already on the mini pods. I saw the invite, that's the last time I've been to the cinema is the invite, Olivia Wilde, and it was just boss. I loved it. Oh, she's an excellent. She directs it, and I think she wrote it. It's just my kind of film. It's it's not a superhero, it's you know, it's a so far, not that. It's four characters in a an apartment, and it's the all the drama of the conversation. You know why I like it's brilliant. No, it's funny, it's very funny in places, it's also really moving, and it's just real life, it's adult shit, it's just the drama of everyday life, as you know.
SPEAKER_02Let's have a look at that. Now, while we've mentioned Olivia Wilde, and this is a uh a link, but a bad link. Ted Lasso's back.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's no, that's no, that's a terrible link, and stop it.
SPEAKER_02We don't no, no, but the obviously Jason Segudas.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but we're not that yeah, that's not how she she's written and directed an amazing film. That is how we talk about it. We don't talk about anything else.
SPEAKER_02That's great, but it was my link into the fact of have you watched Ted Lasso? Yeah, it came out yesterday, I haven't watched it.
SPEAKER_00I will watch it and I I'm looking forward to it, but I'm in the middle of other stuff, so I'm gonna wait.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I am and I'm not because like I think it was a really, really good show, three seasons and and done. I'm a bit scared that this might not recapture the feel and the magic of what that made that show so I think it's gonna be better because it's about the women's team, so they're gonna be I think they've done it.
SPEAKER_00I think they've done toxic masculinity, and I think now they're doing sexism in sport. I think they they take a broad thing and they through comedy and a bit of drama, you know, they make it a sort of something that can be tackled in a through narrative. And they did that with toxic masculinity by showing non-toxic masculinity in all sorts of ways and a little bit of toxic, you know. You saw a bit of Nate getting sort of radicalised. Isn't Nate back in this one? I don't know. Not seeing him do any promotion.
SPEAKER_02None of the male football team, including Jamie Tart, are back for this season.
SPEAKER_00I mean I don't I've not seen yet, but it's about the women's team. So the I don't know what the actress's name, but she was in sex education, she's in it, and she seems to be quite prominent on the promotion stuff. So I'm just what I see on Instagram.
SPEAKER_02So I've because I I'm looking forward to it, I didn't watch any trailers or anything.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02Uh I think it looks good. I'll be going into this fully blind on what's happened.
SPEAKER_00Alright, we're gonna move on because we've already talked far too much about things that aren't Batman. So before we start.
SPEAKER_02Well, it is series three, we haven't done a lot for a while, so just want to say series three again.
SPEAKER_00I'll get back to my script. Before we start, remember this is going to be full of spoilers, and if you haven't seen Batman, now is the time to pause the pod and come back when you're done. We'll be waiting. Right, Phil, why did you choose Batman?
SPEAKER_02So, Batman for me, it was the first time I'd seen a dark superhero movie. I don't think it'd been done dark before. You know.
SPEAKER_00Can okay, just for context, because I you know superheroes and I don't. What had come before that you had seen? Superman, anything else? What else are we you know what I mean? What else is in the vibes of this at the at the time?
SPEAKER_02Supergirl. Was that out in the eight? I think yeah, that was out in the 80s, the Helen Slater one. But this this took a different turn, a different tone. And it's it's difficult to to remember before this Batman film, Batman was like a bit of lighter tone. You had the Adam West TV series where they were they were in tight and it was over the top, it was zany. The the bad guys were you know, they were like it was just a bit of a joke, and while that version became a classic, it wasn't representative of the darker direction that Batman had taken in the comics, you know. Okay, so in the comics, we had like the dark nights, we had, and that was in like the 70s and 80s, Batman Year One, and it reminded people that Batman was done as a dark, serious character.
SPEAKER_00And when you went to see this in 1989, were you aware of all that?
SPEAKER_02No, not at the time.
SPEAKER_00No, so you just went as a kid.
SPEAKER_02When when I seen this for the first time, I was a bit like, well, that was a bit too dark, right? Scary. No, just dark in general, just the theme. You know, I didn't really know about Tim Burton beforehand. You know, he'd done Edward Scissorhands, he'd done Pee-Wee's Big Adventure. So I didn't know lots about him. I just got excited that Batman was coming, and also I remember the casting of Michael Keaton was controversial. Okay, like there was letters written to Warner Brothers, you can't use him, you can't use it.
SPEAKER_00What was the vibe?
SPEAKER_02Because they didn't see Batman as him, he was a comedy actor at the time. Mr. Mom. Yeah, Mr. Mum. It was other comedy.
SPEAKER_00I mean, he's what was he in? What was he famous for back in the day?
SPEAKER_02Well, he'd been in Beetlejuice.
SPEAKER_00Oh, of course he had, that's why, yeah, of course he had.
SPEAKER_02Tim Burton, yeah. Yeah, so but but you couldn't see him as Batman, you know.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02And I think like, you know, Batman was supposed to be a big character in stature, you don't see that. You know, the way Adam West had played Bruce Wayne, he was confident, he was, you know, showy off, you know, where this this was a completely different take.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've not really thought about that, to be honest. About about what Batman was supposed to be like, because I've like I say I've I've never really given that any thought. And he because Michael Keaton isn't kind of some big, huge, hulky guy. He's no. And he's not he he he he doesn't do that thing like I did a lot of comparison without meaning to to the original Superman film just because similar-ish era, a few years apart, and it's my only other real kind of you know entry into the world of this sort of stuff, and he doesn't do that Clark Kent thing where he's kind of it's the same actor and you can see it's the same actor, but he changes his posture and he changes his at no point do you see when he's being Batman, at no point do you think, oh Michael, that's Michael Keaton. You can't tell it's Michael Keaton. Could have been anyone.
SPEAKER_02The thing, the thing with it, this for me, as I say, 1989, so I was about 14, 15 at the time, it was the first grown-up superhero movie I'd ever seen where where I would put Superman, which I absolutely adore, as a film you could take kids to watch, with this at the time, and it was the first 12 reasons. The first 12, I remember it well. And like when you look look back at it now, what is the 12? That's in the I did think there's a couple of things, you know.
SPEAKER_00I think this might be a PG now. Well, I think there's there's some stuff in that I think is a bit dodge for PG, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been a P you know it would be a PG now, I think, because I always think that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think like Tim Burton he created a great gothic world for this, you know. I thought the setting of how they did it and stuff, it all appealed to me, you know. And I look back and and my my other bit is why I chose this film, and you know me and my movie scores, the score to this was fantastic. Well, not not just that, the actual and it was done by Danny Elfman. Oh, it was, I saw his name, yeah Simpsons and Danny Elfman at that time had done comedy scores like Pee Wee Herman, so he was seen as a bit of a controversial take to do.
SPEAKER_00Dave did Beetlejuice as well, I think, didn't he?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he did. I I've heard him interviewed because obviously I listened to Classic FM at the movies quite a bit, yeah. And he has little sound bites on there, and and this is regularly played on there, this theme, and he said like he didn't know it, and it just kinda happened. He said he did a couple of calls and it just grew and grew from there. Now, this is a s iconic score, as much as Superman is like I've seen different takes of Batman over the years, and they've always tried to include a little bit of this motif in that score. Okay, you know, the the new Superman movie that came out uh was it last year?
SPEAKER_002025. Yeah, David Corran's well.
SPEAKER_02They included the John Williams theme in there, you know. I've seen I think it was the Ben Affleck one, there was a little bit where it was included, just enough, if you knew you knew the tingles. Yeah. It's heroic without sound and triumphant at the same time. I think it's great. Okay. It's really, really good. So yeah, I just think it's a great movie for me. That's why I picked it.
SPEAKER_00My preconceptions of this film, because I've never seen it, uh, I watched it, and I've only watched it once this week, so I'm still a little bit hazy on a couple of things, but I've only had the time to watch this.
SPEAKER_02Before you say anything, sorry to interrupt, did you think this was going to be a kid's movie?
SPEAKER_00I had no idea. I didn't think about that. Well, I definitely remember the sort of the not the hoo-haw, but the whole thing of it, it's the first 12, they've had to create a whole new certificate for this. I don't remember all that because I was 11. And I made a note somewhere. I think I was at this came out. I made a note, but I can't find it now. This came out, I think about eight months before I was 12. I was 11 and I knew that, you know, oh, I'm nearly there, I'm nearly at this next landmark stage. But I didn't watch it because it also wasn't a film I cared about. It wasn't my thing. But that was all I remember, and there was a lot of stuff about it. I think it was a great PR thing that that was, you know, that was the sort of what everyone knew about it, and I remember it really clearly. And also, this was the era when I was reading Smash Ips regularly, who did like film reviews and TV stuff as well as all like mostly music. So I would have read stuff about this. I felt like I had a good understanding of bits of this film. I knew it was Jack Nicholson, I knew it was Michael Keaton, I remember I knew it was Prince as well. I remember it was Prince, mainly because of just being alive at the time, but also there was a boy that I this was actually when I was in first and second year at high school. There's a boy I knew, and I still know him through social media, who was obsessed with Prince and still is. It's like his, you know, just absolute idol. And he I knew that he liked Batman because I knew he liked the music, and he once wrote out the lyrics of one of the Batman songs on the album for me. Well, while we're on the album of the I was about to tell you what the song was, but somebody wants to move on. I'm not sure from that very happy memory I had of The Arms of Orion by Sheena Easton and Prince. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02So while we're on the subject of Prince, because he was asked to do one song for the film, and he turned up with a whole album. He did a whole album, yeah. And for for me, the best Prince song in the movie is halfway through the end credits. Scandalous, it's just amazing. That song.
SPEAKER_00It's Prince is one of those people that for me I never think about. I never think, oh, amazing. And yeah, the minute I hear a Prince song, I'm like, oh yeah, it's banger. I love a lot of his songs, but I don't think about them. But what I enjoyed about his stuff being in this film is it also rooted it to that era. It felt like that was the sound, a real sound of the time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it elevated the film.
SPEAKER_00It definitely did. Some specific scenes are made even better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So should we get on? Let's crack on. Right. So the story is set in Gotham City. It is. A place overwhelmed with corruption, crime, and fear.
SPEAKER_00Do you think have you ever seen It's a Wonderful Life?
SPEAKER_02Years. You haven't seen it.
SPEAKER_00Okay, fine. But basically, Gotham is Pottersville. Pottersville, if George Bailey hadn't been born, it's like a denim iniquity. There's like gambling on the streets and there's sirens blaring and there's all sorts of shenanigans. It just makes me think of that. So I enjoyed that little reference. I don't know if it was deliberate.
SPEAKER_02I I always think of Gotham as like a slightly darker version of New York.
SPEAKER_00It felt less it felt more its own place than Metropolis feels in Superman. That just is New York with a different name. Whereas this is like its own place. Big city.
SPEAKER_02It's like the darkened slums of New York where it's all steam coming out the vegetables. That's why I just reminded me.
SPEAKER_00I felt it was a perfectly fictionalised its own place. Well, you know what you mean, it's a big city.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. We start off where we see some criminals on the roof. Did you spot one of them from Alpha the Same Pet?
SPEAKER_00Oh, which one?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I think it's is it Tracy Walter?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I know who that is off the IMDB list, but I didn't know he was in Alpha the Same Pet.
SPEAKER_02I'm sure he's out of Alpha the Same Pet.
SPEAKER_00Okay. It's Bob the Goon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. They basically they have just mugged the family. And now when I first seen this, I thought that was Bruce Wayne at first, you know. Okay. Because I know Bruce Wayne's parents get murdered, and I thought that was what was going to happen. So I thought that was what was going to happen.
SPEAKER_00What I did notice as the titles are gone and we're being introduced to Gotham. Loads of the I'd recognise a lot of names. You know, obviously Michael Keaton and Jack Nicholson, obviously, and Kim Bassinger. Bassinger or Basinger. Well that was a question of the time it was a whole thing. Apologies, Kim.
SPEAKER_02But while we're talking about that, did you notice who got top billing in the Batman film?
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_02Jack Nicholson.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I can see that at the time, definitely. And even now, probably.
SPEAKER_02But he was the biggest star on this. It was massive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But there was loads of names I recognise. Okay, Jack Pollance, huge. Yeah. Huge. But there were other names. Christopher Fairbank. I don't actually know these are on the opening titles, but these are the IMDb. Christopher Fairbank and Richard Durden, British actors. I see them in like Richard Durden was in a midsummer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Do you know what I mean? These are kind of people I see on TV.
SPEAKER_02Filmed over here.
SPEAKER_00Right, well, that makes loads of sense. And the other one, Pat Hingle, who is Gordon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He's in loads of murder she wrote.
SPEAKER_02And this is also, if you include our mini pods, now the third with Lando in it. Billy D. Williams.
SPEAKER_00Now I couldn't re I put Lando and I couldn't remember his last name. I put Lando Caradigan, which is a place in Wales. What's his name?
SPEAKER_02Lando Car Calician. Carradigan is better. But yeah, the third bit Billy D. Williams film.
SPEAKER_00I recognised his name and then looked him up. I was like, oh, that's why I mean it.
SPEAKER_02He plays Harvey Dent. He does. Yeah. So Tourists are muked. So let's get back up. The tourists are mugged, and then the two goons are on the roof. One of them's a bit scared that we don't want to get up here, you know, because the bat, and then the other goon, Bob the Goon, is like the bat, and he's like, it doesn't exist. And then next thing, Batman turns up.
SPEAKER_00I was fascinated by his entrance. It's nine minutes in, and that's including all the titles. Also, sorry, when I say nine minutes, it includes the ads that I had to watch before the film started on the streamer, right? So it's not even nine minutes of film. If any thing back I'm I'm so sorry to keep comparing to Superman, but it's all I've got in my head about superheroes. When you think about Superman, proper Superman, we did not see him flying through the air before bloody hours.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00This is almost such an understated entrance. This is the guy in the film, and yet he just kind of rocks up, sorts it out, and flies. It's not like it's da-da with some big triumphant thing. It's massive.
SPEAKER_02Because he's already operating. He's operating, but he's he's only just really started. You know, in this, we do get the origin story because you see it halfway through the film of what kind of has happened. But I do like not every film needs an origin story. You know, spot on.
SPEAKER_00I mean, Superman did not need the first two sections.
SPEAKER_02No, I think it's you know you like those bits.
SPEAKER_00I I thought the super no, the Smallville. Yeah, the Superman Smallville, but I thought that was intriguing. But I only really enjoyed the film once oh we're in New York. It's fun, it gets funny then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then there's no humour in the other bits.
SPEAKER_02Batman turns up, he beats the crap out of them, one of them kicks through a door on the roof, and the other one he says to him, I want you to tell our friends about me. He goes, Who are you? He goes, I'm Batman.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02No, that that is a recurring thing in all Batman reading. Yeah, I love I'm Batman. Stop it. I've seen it like Michael Keaton has turned up at Oscars and things like that, and he still does the I'm Batman. Okay. I just love it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're gonna have to stop copying. I didn't even remember him doing that, so there we go. That's why you're making my notes.
SPEAKER_02That's how little superhero stuff you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So we then cut to a scene where they're basically promoting Harvey Dent, who's the new commissioner. Now I'm gonna educate you that you do you know anything Harvey Dent is?
SPEAKER_00You mean the character Harvey Dent?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_02So Harvey Dent turns into a criminal. Not in this film. Okay. It never happened in the Michael Keaton films, but he ends up getting like burnt with acid and becomes a character called Two Face.
SPEAKER_00Interesting, because when did it start when we see Lando Carradigan? When we see him do that, I didn't know at that point is he's supposed to be a good guy or bad guy. Yeah, he's a good guy. It looks like it's you know politics, it's police, it's all. So I don't know, you know, what what side he's gonna be on, and obviously it was fine, but I was yeah, I was waiting. For some sort of big reveal or something.
SPEAKER_02He was put put in as a bit of a small part to basically have a bigger part in another movie that it never turned out happening.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So then we're introduced in a different scene to Jack Napier.
SPEAKER_00Yes, who I didn't really appreciate was called Jack Napier. I just called him the Joker from the start. Yeah, I got that towards the.
SPEAKER_02No, he's he plays he plays one of the subcrime bosses and underboss. It's quickly revealed he's having it off with the big kingpin's girlfriend.
SPEAKER_00Jerry Hall. Jerry Hall. I didn't know she was in this.
SPEAKER_02I don't even I don't even know the name. She does get a mention of a name in. She does have a name.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she's called Alicia. Alicia, but I don't remember that. I did call her Jerry Hall all the way through.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so it's it's quickly apparent that he's not supposed to be with her. He's messing with the deck of cards and he he got she's giving him compliments, and you can see he's not a nice character because he just turned around and goes. I didn't ask. Yeah, he's so we then cut to the police who are investigating the roof murder, the roof assault by Batman.
SPEAKER_00They're gonna see us.
SPEAKER_02Um, we're introduced to a reporter called Knox.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I have thoughts.
SPEAKER_02Go on, give me your thoughts.
SPEAKER_00First of all, I knew his face and it bugged me where from. And it's he's literally got a tiny part in the bodyguard. He plays the host of the Oscars when we does. Okay, so that's how I know him. I have a real issue with the way he introduces well, he doesn't introduce himself when he meets Vicky Vale.
SPEAKER_02Oh, we'll get to that in a bit. We'll get to that in a bit.
SPEAKER_00But again, all the time I'm meeting these characters, I don't know if they're good or bad. I don't know if these are the goodies or the baddies, are they gonna get cra you know, it's just feels like I guess if you've read the comic books and that's how you access this film, then you have all of this information at your fingertips. I'm just coming in blind.
SPEAKER_02So he comes in and he starts asking questions to detective Eckhart about the bat, and he's going, You're full of shit, basically. He said, Don't write about it, don't this, and then one of the goons gets whisked past on a trolley going, the bat, the bat, and he goes, Don't write this shit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's funny.
SPEAKER_02And then you see Eckhart down a dark alley, and he's basically being paid off by Napier.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that's overt corruption. We can see from even if we weren't sure that Jack Nicholson is a dodge.
SPEAKER_02And you can see that Eckhart and Napier at odds with each other because you can see Napier thinks he's got bigger status than he actually has, and he get and he says to him, Where have you been spending your nights? So it's cut it's common knowledge he's with Alicia.
SPEAKER_00Well done, Jerry Hall. Jerry Hall. I was just gonna say Jerry Hall. I know, but it's interesting, isn't it? Because when you it okay. This is my simplistic take. I'm sure there's been a million better takes over the years. It's like it's a comic book, right? And this was an early version like of all the films that have since come. This is like the first film, this it was the TV series, and then it's the film, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think there was like other stuff before the animated films, but never live action.
SPEAKER_00My point is because it's coming from illustrated pictures that have been put into a strip, and each one is a still shot, there's recreations, I'm assuming, of those still shots, those still images.
SPEAKER_02So I think this original story, but they have homages to say and things.
SPEAKER_00My point is it's all a little bit elevated, it's not real life. Everything is slightly drawn broadly drawn and stereotypical. You know, it's for example, Heartstopper. Heartstopper? I read the books, which are all comic graphic books things. Graphic novels. Graphic novels is the proper word, but they're all like individual pictures, obviously, in there. Then you watch the TV show, and the TV show makes sure that some of those individual pictures are reenacted for a st a shot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's beautiful. So it might not be exactly perfectly how you do something naturalistically in the world, but you just have that little lovely touch that is beautiful in the book. So I'm thinking here, you know, everything is slightly elevated, everything is slightly overdrawn, brighter colours, you know, slightly not perfectly realistic, just comic book style.
SPEAKER_02Tim Burton's style.
SPEAKER_00And it also it might be, but my point to get to it eventually is so if I say Jerry Hall, Jerry Hall, fair plays to the woman, I don't know her, and I don't really know much of her work because she just seems to have always been famous all my life. And I again know people she's been married to, and that's not why, you know, that's irrelevant, really. But like she's playing this sort of aloof, very beautiful, very glamorous, sort of very model-like woman. How is how she appears in real life as someone who doesn't know? So I'm gonna call her Jerry Hall, and I don't mean to be dismissive of her acting because it's not, it's like I'm probably gonna say Jack Nicholson more than I say the Joker because I think they're very similar. Yeah, and I think he's being Jack Nicholson. He's being Jack Nicholson, and that's why he got cast, I'm guessing, because he does it so well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so moving on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we need to crack on with this film, James.
SPEAKER_02It is you where you get your moments. Knox heads back to the office. Vicky Vale is waiting for him. She basically is reading the paper, so you can't see her, but she does have does she have high heels on? Probably, um, tights and got her legs up on his desk. And he says, Oh, legs.
SPEAKER_00No, he says, Hello, legs. And I wanted to punch him. And now it made me think, well, he's a wrong game, and we want to see him die, but actually, he turned out not to be a wrong. He survived.
SPEAKER_02That's harsh. I just think there's no place for that. I watched this knowing you would pick out.
SPEAKER_00This is a workplace.
SPEAKER_02We didn't know who she was.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it doesn't matter, he's at work.
SPEAKER_02Well, I've also add to this, she's one of my first proper crushes. She was beautiful, still is beautiful. But in this movie, I was like, Whoa. Yeah, she plays Vicky Vale, yeah, came bassinger, passenger. Um, and I think we're always going to say that throughout the podcast because you don't want to disrespect the name.
SPEAKER_00Uh sure, she'll be very pleased.
SPEAKER_02When she hears this, she's like, I'm glad Phil did that. But she plays a war photographer, yeah. And she's interested in Knox's bat story.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And he thinks she's taking the piss at first.
SPEAKER_00Because no one else is buying what he says, so she's like the only person.
SPEAKER_02So then we're introduced to Carl Grissom.
SPEAKER_00Jack Palance.
SPEAKER_02Yes. He's a very small part in this, but he's very good in it. He plays the crime boss, and Napier's one of his underbosses. And they're talking about the cops are on to in fact, not the cops, it's Harvey Dent, is onto the front of Axis Chemicals.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So he tasked Jack Napier to trash the place and burn it.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And you can see Napier's a bit uncomfortable with this.
SPEAKER_00I didn't ps uh yeah, I'll okay. I didn't notice that, but I was still just I was letting all this just wash over me. Do you know what I mean? The act the whole chemical thing. I didn't didn't really know who Grissom was for a little while. Right. I I got the gist, he's a wrong one, but you know, I didn't really pay too much attention. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. But and I'm over 12.
SPEAKER_02Grissom has set up Napier. He's called the cops, because basically he knows he knows Napier's with Jerry Hall.
SPEAKER_00Who I also think reminded me a lot of Miss Tessmacher. Yeah, just she's just there in the list.
SPEAKER_02Tess Macker has a bit of a bigger role in the mum in this. Yeah. Vicky Vale and Knox have decided to go to Bruce Wayne's ball. Now it's just a load of big wigs just to raise a bit of money, a charity auction. But and this this is one thing I do find a bit hard. None of them know who Bruce Wayne is. Now, Bruce Wayne's a billionaire.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He would be known.
SPEAKER_00I don't so I don't know who Bruce Wayne is really. I know he's the the reality.
SPEAKER_02But what I'm saying is within their life, so he's a huge reporter, she's a photographer. Yes. He's he's the richest man around. Okay, you wouldn't know who he was.
SPEAKER_00But anyway, do we know as as people in the world who've read comics of it, do we know why he's rich? Do we know all of this?
SPEAKER_02His father was a philanthropist.
SPEAKER_00Well done. Philanthropist?
SPEAKER_02He's one of them. Love the way I can say these words. Okay. So yeah, he's inheriting his father's money. So Vicky Vale's walking around the party going, Have you seen Bruce Wayne? And she actually says it to Bruce Wayne. He goes, No, but I'll keep an eye out. Yeah. And then he's curious why this beautiful woman is looking for him. Uh she meets up with Knox, and then they end up going into it's like an armory room. It's like where he goes, Who is this guy? And they're talking about Bruce Wayne. And he's like, You must be really, really strange. And Bruce Wayne comes in and then introduces himself, and then Knox makes a notebook. Oh, can you give me a grant? And then Alfred comes. Alfred.
SPEAKER_00Alfred the butler. Yes. Because every posh American with money has an English butler who is old.
SPEAKER_02Played by Richard Goff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It seems like Arthur, isn't it? With John Gilgood.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. He's basically telling Bruce Wayne that the police commissioner's gone. He had to leave abruptly. And he goes, Oh, Bruce Wayne goes, Oh, I have to go then. Oh, and give Knox a grant. Just like that. So he's got to give him some money, even though he yeah.
SPEAKER_00I felt like if I was writing this story, I would have made it taken longer to for Bruce Wayne to reveal that he was Bruce Wayne in that scene. No. He didn't add anything. It was a bit amusing that he kind of let them talk a little bit and then he said it's me. I don't know, I just thought he didn't do anything with it, did he?
SPEAKER_02No, but it just shows he's a bit aloof. And the thing with this Bruce Wayne, he's less word, he's less words, he's he's more about emotions and he takes things in, he he assesses he ponders, he assesses the situations. So I think this character would be that way. Okay. It worked really well. Anyway, he finds out that Gordon Commissioner Gordon has gone off because he said Napier is trashing Axis chemicals.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What do you want me to say about that? Yeah, yeah, I'm go I'm going with it. I'm going with it. I did notice the cops have got Jack Napier on wanted poster saying sheep to kill, but Commissioner Gordon says taken alive. Right.
SPEAKER_02So Eckhart, who's played by who's paid by the mob boss, is wanting to kill Napier, so he's out of the way. Yeah. Right? But when Commissioner Gordon turns up, he's like, no, we want to capture him. Then Batman arrives.
SPEAKER_00He does.
SPEAKER_02And he's seen by the Commissioner and the cops for the first time.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02You know, they they not. Yeah. He gets to Napier and he's about to get Napier when one of his goons, Bob the Goon.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02Right? But Bob the Goon has got a gun to Commissioner Gordon's head and says, let Napier go, or he'll do the Commissioner. So he lets him go. Napier turns round to pick his gun up off the floor and Batman's disappeared.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He then goes to he then shoots Eckhart because he doesn't like him. Ovs. Obvs. And then Batman turns up, he goes to shoot Batman. The bullet deflects, hits some glass, and it severs his face.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then he falls. Batman catches him, but he can't hold him, and he falls into a vat of chemicals.
SPEAKER_00Is this acid? Is it acid? Acid. Is this why it went to a 12 and not a PG? Maybe.
SPEAKER_02Possibly. It could feel a bit crazy. Possibly. Batman makes his escape of and then we cut to scenes later where he's dating Vicky Vale in his house on the most ginormous table ever, and they sat at one end.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean. I don't get why. Okay, I guess she's trying to do a story. Why why is she asking him? Like, does she know his Batman? But she doesn't know he's Batman.
SPEAKER_02No, she doesn't know he's Batman. Okay. No, so she's fascinated by Bruce Wayne.
SPEAKER_00Right. Why? He's very rich. That's what we know. And if that's it, well, pathetic. No, it's not that. He doesn't say much. He doesn't do anything. If you get to know him, he might be marvellous, and maybe he's the ideal man. But there's nothing he didn't gain anything.
SPEAKER_02No, but there was something in she liked the fact that he didn't reveal he was Bruce Wayne and he waited a little bit. Well, yeah, obviously. But he's a bit aloof. There's just something there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just found it interesting because she doesn't know he's got this sort of secret secret life, which is fine.
SPEAKER_02At this moment.
SPEAKER_00No, at this moment. But like, why why be on a date? A weird date as well. Not even a fun date. Eventually they sort of change it up. But yeah, I just didn't get why she was there. But why not? Because he's because he hasn't got he's not offering her anything.
SPEAKER_02Billions of pounds.
SPEAKER_00No, but that's sort of if it's only that, then well, why am I rooting together?
SPEAKER_02No, I don't think it's that. I don't think it's a big one. She was just curious by his personality.
SPEAKER_00I just don't think he's showing it's got one yet.
SPEAKER_02This this date isn't going that well because the table's about 24 long and you can't talk to each other. And then they end up being in the kitchen with with Alfred. Yeah, and it's a nice little scene. And it's like, you know, all these rooms in the house he doesn't use. No. She actually says to him, What what is this? He goes, I don't even think I've been in this room before. And that's just it's basically a scene set up to show he's that wealthy, his house is that big, you know, it's just everything.
SPEAKER_00And also to show he's not so up himself that he won't sit and eat with the butler in the kitchen, even though he's actually his friend, the butler's his friends. But we're still gonna be clearing up the next day, which I'm not like, no, they could do the washing up, surely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. We then cut to a dark surgery room where Napier's been getting worked on. Yeah, it's all gross. And that and it's dirty, it's dingy, and the guy's going, you know, look what the tools have got to work with. And then you hear the jokers laugh for the first time. Because he's no longer Napier, he's now the Joker.
SPEAKER_00But again, I don't think this is massively different from Jack Nicholson's laugh. I don't know, but I just feel like it's so it's Jack Nicholson being a slightly elevated version of himself, a slightly much.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that's it. I think the thing is Jack Nicholson had a lot of fun in this role.
SPEAKER_00He looks like he's having a ball fair play to him.
SPEAKER_02And I think like at the time, I mean, I think the Joker, you we'd have an argument over who's the best Joker, Heath Ledger or Jack Nicholson, and they play the role so differently.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can't imagine it's similar.
SPEAKER_02But this version of the Joker, Jack Nicholson was born to play it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I couldn't imagine anybody doing it better than this.
SPEAKER_00It's yeah, he's made it his own.
SPEAKER_02And he plays the right level of psychopath.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But fun. You know, he's fun to watch. Yeah, he's fun. You don't see the Joker yet, but you just hear us laugh. And we hear that he's gonna get revenge on Grissom. Yeah. Because he know he knows Grissom's set him up, and this is where we see the Joker for the first time.
SPEAKER_00Is this when he goes into Grissom's place? Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And Grissom doesn't realise that Jack's still alive at this point.
SPEAKER_00Well, he thinks it's Jerry Hall.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And he calls us Sugar Lumps.
SPEAKER_02Sugar lumps.
SPEAKER_00Hated. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But that's that just shows you the era and the creepiness of the crime boss.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it adds to the creepiness, definitely.
SPEAKER_02He's in the shadows while he's talking to Grissom, and then he reveals himself and his skin's turned pale white, his face is all severed where he's permanently got a smile on his face. I love the makeup on this because I still haven't worked out how they've got because if you look at Nicholson's mouth, it's like pulled up.
SPEAKER_00It's like he's got some wires in it to kind of fix it in play.
SPEAKER_02But also, obviously, they've got prosthetics on there to hand the cheeks and stuff. But still to this day, after watching it so many times, like, wow, how have they done this? Yeah, he just looks fantastic, absolutely fantastic. His hair's turned green because of the chemicals, and then he starts shooting Grissom. Yeah. But he starts dancing as he's shooting. Yeah, he's like having fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's absolutely fantastic. This portrayal.
SPEAKER_00It's fantastic and it's very entertaining, but it is also chilling. Yeah. Because he's such a psychopath.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which he he was dodgy before and corrupt before, but now he's like proper psycho.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Jerry Hall turns back up.
SPEAKER_00Back up.
SPEAKER_02Does she faint? I can't remember. Yeah, I think she does. But you don't see her for a little bit now. No. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00She's also why it was maybe a 12 when uh she's revealed.
SPEAKER_02So the next morning, Vicky Vale wakes up. She's next to Bruce Wayne in bed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I didn't know. Interesting. Yeah, I didn't. Fair play.
SPEAKER_00Modern woman, modern guy, no problem. But yeah, I thought it was interesting.
SPEAKER_02And she said she'd like to see him again. But he says he's out of town.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he did seem a little bit like aloof. He's had a shag and now he's done.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, a big question. Like, I mean, when I was younger, it probably probably washed over me, but you know, was he trying to avoid her? Was he not trying to avoid her? When when she goes, she says to Alfred, Oh, call me when you get back, and he goes, Get back, we're not going anywhere. Picks up a little reported instinct, like, hmm, something more to this.
SPEAKER_00I just again I didn't get enough from Michael Keaton's portrayal of Batman about why of Bruce Wayne.
SPEAKER_02He's true.
SPEAKER_00But he yeah, okay. I didn't get enough from Bruce Wayne, the character, as to why he was messing around. Was it because he was? He wasn't, it was He was messing around because he lied to her. Okay, he might have had other things to do that he couldn't tell her about, but we didn't really see what they were.
SPEAKER_02But he keeps we do you do?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he does other stuff, but it's like he didn't know he was gonna be involved with other stuff.
SPEAKER_02No, it was nothing to do with Batman. That was the day his parents was made. It was the anniversary.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So that was. That's what it was. It wasn't that he didn't want anything.
SPEAKER_02You just didn't want to reveal that to her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. I just I don't know, it just felt like I just didn't get why she liked him.
SPEAKER_02Well, we'll we'll go further on. So we cut to the Joker pretending to be Jack Napier again, with with all the with the other crime bosses around the table saying Grissom's out of town, he hasn't revealed he's killed him, and you now work for me. Where one of them says, Well, what if we want to back out? He goes, We'll just shake hands, and he has this electric handbuzzer that electrocutes him, but it's the way he's doing it, he's like, Oh, oh, and yeah, and that and then when when he's like, he's just like a bit of a spurn to a Chris skeleton, and he goes, Oh, he's a bit hot under the collar, and he's just wise cracker. He's loving it. He's he's just a full-on psychopath.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, the other crime bosses he basically scares into having to work with them. Vicky Vale follows Bruce Wayne to where he's going, and he sees she sees he lays two roses outside a theatre. Not sure if it's a movie theatre or a theatre for plays on the ground. She's a bit curious to what's going on there. At the same time, across the street, some of the crime bosses giving a bit of a press conference talking about Grissom being out of town and things are gonna change. To which we see the Joker appeal himself to the public for the first time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Where he offs one of the the mob bosses with a pen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because the pen is mightier than the sword.
SPEAKER_02I know, it's a good little but all this, Bruce Wayne's watching, yeah, and he's just unfazed, unmoved, doesn't show any emotion to the guy getting killed. They try and clear the streets by shooting bullets in there, and he just doesn't move. One of the bullets passed through his coat, and he's he's just curious to what's going on. Back at the Joker's hideout, he's going through photos of what's happened because he's loving seeing himself, yeah, and all the press clippings, and he sees a photo of Vicky Vale, and he makes he makes a decision, she's gonna be his woman. Gross. Yep, gross, completely. He also, at this time, is plotting the Axis Chemicals Smilex.
SPEAKER_00So this is the stuff he puts in the cosmetics? Yes, which is terrific.
SPEAKER_02You don't realise what's going on, but you just hear a little talk about it. Vicky leaves a message for Bruce that she would be late for their dinner at the museum, but he hasn't made a date with her. No, so we know something dodgy.
SPEAKER_00So we know something dodgy is happening.
SPEAKER_02So this is where we see the Joker start to go full fun mode here. He basically sends a present to Vicky Vale, who's waiting, and she's been waiting ages for Bruce, and Bruce hadn't showed up. A gas mask.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02A little gas mask, and all of that. It's never a good sign. Yeah, and all of a sudden gas starts coming out of everywhere. She's got this mask, and everyone's collapsed. It never reveals whether everybody's dead in there, or does he just put them all to sleep? I'm not quite sure. He then breaks through the doors, starts playing Prince music, and improves the artwork. He's painting over these. I'm guessing they're gonna be like multi million pound pieces.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, these are yeah, it's a museum, gallery, whatever.
SPEAKER_02Giving them joker smiles and dance. It's this dancing is brilliant. Yeah. It's so funny. No, where there's a there's like a like a cherub sort of on one leg and he reads it. Yeah, he sort of hops his way through it. It's just funny, and then you see one picture where it looks like I don't know, like a war shack with you'd interpret it as death, and he goes, Whoa, not that one. That one's good.
SPEAKER_00I see. I didn't really look at what the picture was that he saved. Okay, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02And then gets the Vicky Vale.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Where he's he's making it known that he's gonna schmooze hair, he's gonna try on romance hair. Gross, gross, gross. And then he's brutally interrupted by Batman jumping through the skylights. Batman then whisks Vale away on a zip line that he has, you know. And I love it. It's a tweeted about his person. I know, I love the line where he's just burst through the doors, and then you know, the Joker, where does he get these wonderful toys?
SPEAKER_00That was nearly gonna be my open line. Was it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I avoided that, but he goes out and then there's a car chase. We see the Batmobile for the first time. Did you know it was called the Batmobile, or did you just think it was Batman's car?
SPEAKER_00No, I knew it was the Batmobile from like you know, my own I I never really knew anything about Batman, but when I was a proper kid, as in well before this film, I think like Channel 4 summer holidays in the mornings they put like the Adam West episodes on. Yeah. So I was aware of things, you know what I mean? But no, I yeah, I knew it was the Batmobile.
SPEAKER_02But back in the day this car was uber cool.
SPEAKER_00I'm assuming it was another merch opportunity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a huge merch opportunity. I mean, this this it's kind of funny when you think of it now because the 12 to 12, what's now a 12A rating? This was like McDonald's happy meals and things and toys and stuff. It was just merched to death, you know. Obviously, we'd had Star Wars earlier in in the 80s, and these this was like they were onto it, you know, we could market this to death. And I think films of this sort of magnitude they make the money back just from the merch, anyway. So the car chase happens and they get blocked off. They try and escape by going vertical with yet another gadget, and he asks Vicky Vale her weight.
SPEAKER_00Oh, like the thing that whizes her up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay. And she slightly lies about it because he knows what weight it will take up, and the combined pair of them were too much. So he drops down, has a fight with these. She takes photographs of it happening. Because this is the first time he will have been photographed.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02He beats them all, then goes up to her and drives her back to the back cave and says, I want the negative back. And then she wakes up in her own apartment, it's gone. You got something to say about this?
SPEAKER_00Well, he jugs it to sleep. I'm glad that you recognise that rehipnoling somebody is not a good idea. Yeah. So in my notes, I'm up to speed with you, but there's one thing that I had already mentioned that you've not mentioned, so it must have come before. We know that Jerry Hall has been maimed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's already been made clear to us, which is horrific. The havoc.
SPEAKER_02That happened in the museum, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's around that point where I was writing it down, yeah, after the Prince song. So we know that that's happened.
SPEAKER_02His work of art, that's what he calls.
SPEAKER_00Oh god, yeah, and it feels awful. Yeah. She's wearing a mask. And yeah, particularly again as Jerry Hall, like the model is.
SPEAKER_02I know this so the thing I've never been able to figure out what I've never been able to figure out is has he done this just because he's a psychopath, or did she do something to him and he wanted to get revenge? I think he's a psychopath. Yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00And he's and she's his possession.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He kills the bot the he put killed Grissom and now he owns Grissom's lover.
SPEAKER_02So, yeah, it's horrible.
SPEAKER_00It's horrible, horrible. Which all of the humour, and there's so much of Jack Nicholson's humour in this or his character, all of that humour. There's just these snippets every so often where you go, Oh, you're an evil fucker.
SPEAKER_02Because that's that's the thing with this joke. It is, it is like you can forget. You can forget psychopath because he's utter psychotic. It's so fun on screen to watch.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it that's really and I do think there's the darkness of this film. I mean, we can talk about it properly, I'm gonna tell you what I really think about it all. But I see why PG wasn't caught in it, and either was 15. I see the way that's the case. It's the in-between, there's an in-between because you can't have little kids. Well, I think you would now probably give it a PG because I think things have changed, but back then there's no way, but yeah, there's definitely these glimmers of real dark shit going on that you know is hidden by all the jollity.
SPEAKER_02So we then see Alfred convincing that Vicky Vale's special, you need to go and see her. So he turns up at his apartment. I love this scene. This is one of my favourite scenes.
SPEAKER_00Is this when he tries to tell her who he is?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. You know, she's like, and she's giving him the cold shoulder, and she rightly should have because he's fucked her off and all this kind of stuff. He's he's giving this, you know, my life's really complex, and she's like, You married? He's like, No, no, no, no, sit down, and he's he like forcefully makes her sit down, takes off his coat, and he goes, I'm just and then the dog bell goes, and as she walks away to the doorbell, he's mouthing to himself, I'm Batman. I'm Batman. He's trying to tell her, Look, I like ya, but I've got this. And then the door opens, and it's the Joker. He is wooing her again.
SPEAKER_00It's I think it's wooing when it's like persistently non-consensual. Yeah, stalking is exactly what it is. Yeah, it's a criminal act, I think.
SPEAKER_02And so Bruce, Bruce realizes what it is, so he hides a dinner tray under a suit that you never actually see. It looks like that he's got it.
SPEAKER_00He fashions some uh Kevlar mess, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he then confronts the Joker. He knows that the Joker is Jack Napier. Yes. He's figured it out. Yeah. He then starts telling this story about there's this kid called Jack, who was a bit of a tough guy, he did this, this, that, and then he got and then Bruce goes a bit nuts because he's picked up fire poker and smashes it. It's actually what he smashes. I've missed a little bit out here, so this is important. You just picked up on it. Jerry Hall's mask.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she's killed herself.
SPEAKER_00Oh, has she?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she threw herself off a balcony.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he did say that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He said, I was letting all this wash over me without taking too many details in.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, so Bruce goes nuts. The Joker then says, Have you ever danced with the devil by the Pale Mill Late? And then shoots him.
SPEAKER_00Go on. It's a weird thing.
SPEAKER_02Well, hang on, hang on, hang on. He then leaves Vicky a nice little present and goes, and she opens it, and some dead flowers on a pop-out hand, and she faints.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Horrible. Bruce is gone. He realises he's the guy who killed the parents because of the catch line.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Now he has to have a catch line because he's got to realise why he's killed the parents.
SPEAKER_00So I didn't appreciate the fact that he killed his parents until you just said it. So that makes more sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Makes it personal.
SPEAKER_02He has a flashback and it's his parents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you see the guy. He says it, of course, he did, yeah. Like the guy who plays the younger Jack Napier does look a little bit like him. But I always thought, and this might think they should have got Christian Slater at the time, who wasn't a big actor, but he was an actor.
SPEAKER_00He'd been in Heathers.
SPEAKER_02He'd been in Heathers. Probably. Maybe he hasn't played there. The young Jack Napier, because they do look a little bit like at that moment. That's what they used to say, I don't think they do now. But it would have been it would have been a good little call out. So he's figured it out. Napier killed his parents.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, fair play. So they are arch enemies. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Now, in the background, as all this is going on, Smilex has become a thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's not funny, but it is the newsreaders who get progressively less than a few.
SPEAKER_02So the newsreaders, and I'm gonna gloss over this quite quickly. Now they they st they start out, and one of the newsreaders dies because she's used like a combination of hairspray and lipstick or something, and the two chemicals together react and she dies laughing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right. So they haven't figured out what it is, so they stop using all the stuff, and then when you see them and they're like rough, the hair's not done.
SPEAKER_00They just look like normal people. It did remind me. Remember when when we had the first lockdown for the pandemic, and it was like it was news people and people who were still having to do their jobs, but they wouldn't have camera crews with them, they'd be recording things off their own phones, or they'd be doing it all themselves, and they'd be doing their own makeup and hair. So they just look like normal people, which is great. We should have that more. It just made me laugh how yeah, we could none of us could have our professional glam squads.
SPEAKER_02So Batman has figured out the chemical compacts, and he sends it to the press to say these are what the chemicals are, and he does it through Vicky Vale. Vicky Vale also finds out that through Archie Knox that that's where his parents was killed, and she realizes that he's not a bad person, he's just a bit messed up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Alfred brings Vicki to the back cave to meet Bruce. And I I watching this thought you probably have some problems with a little bit of this dialogue in this scene. Did you really she starts going, was it just for fun or did you really love me? And he's like, you know, she goes, Why just won't you just let me in? He goes, You're already in. And it is a bit cheesy, some of the dialogue is it is it's a nice scene.
SPEAKER_00But this feels again, I don't mind it, because again, like I say, it's all slightly not realistic. It's slightly extreme, exciting, you know, slightly you can't have slightly extreme, that's an oxymoron. It's just slightly wide wider, bigger, bolder, more colourful, more it's it's comic book speech. Yeah, it's not realistic, it's not before sunrise. No, uh it's not before sunrise, I I can tell you. So I don't mind it cheesiness in this because you know it's it's it's a speech bubble coming out of a picture, it's not real.
SPEAKER_02So, as this is going on, the Joker has got plans for a big street party, and he said he's gonna dump 20 million in cash to all the residents of Gotham.
SPEAKER_00Is this for the 200-year anniversary of Gotham?
SPEAKER_02He's basically he's got a plan, he's gonna kill everybody. Psychopath is gonna kill everybody. Suit up time for Bruce. You know, we always get this in every superhero movie: the the putting on of the suit, and we've already seen a minute, but it just shows, and he says to Vicky Vale, I've got to go to work. Basically, the Joker has air balloons with gas on them, and he starts gassing all the Patriots of Gotham City. Luckily, luckily, Batman has a plane. And I actually wrote that down. Luckily, Batman has a plane, and luckily on the front of that plane, it has a thing where you can cut ropes of balloons and tie them all together serendipitous and take them away. Yeah, we also get the shot, and I I I love this as a kid, where the bat plane goes up in the air and it goes onto the silhouette of the moon to create the bat sign and then falls down. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00Happy that you enjoy that as a child.
SPEAKER_02I love that. I that was the trailer moment. That was one of the trailer moments. I do remember the trailer for this film, and that was one of the standout moments. So he comes down towards the Joker in the plane. The Joker has this gun and then extends the barrel of the gun. I don't know what it does, extends the barrel of the gun to about like four foot long, takes one shot and downs, downs his plane. Vicky goes over to see if Bruce is alright, and then the Joker kidnaps her and takes her up. Cathedral? Would you say it's a cathedral rather than because it's a huge catch.
SPEAKER_00It's massive, so it probably is in a belfry, isn't it? Yeah, it's probably a cathedral. But I don't remember them mentioning it, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02So he takes it up and he's got he calls for his helicopter, he's got a kidnapper, he's gonna take her away. And then Batman survived and goes up. There's a fight.
SPEAKER_00There is it. This went on for a while. This is a lot of things. I love it. I like this scene.
SPEAKER_02I like this scene. It is I love the line. I can truly say I have a bat in my belfry.
SPEAKER_00There was a bit as well where, like, again, this is maybe for the 12 certificates, where Vicky looks like she's about to blow the Joker, and she goes, I love purple as she bends down.
SPEAKER_02This is so she can distract them.
SPEAKER_00No, I understand she wasn't gonna do that, but it was like, Oh, yeah, that's properly sexual.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So the the Joker and Batman have a fight, but there's no match, you know. Napier's no match for Batman. You know, at one point he punches in the mouth, and then f false teeth jump out and start chattering on the floor and stuff. Yeah, it's just just a com it's a comedy fight at this point for the Joker, but Batman's serious because he killed his parents.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You think you think you think the Jokers fell over off the edge of the Bel- Is it the Belfry, the balcony?
SPEAKER_00Balcony would be.
SPEAKER_02The balcony. Yeah, what you'll see. But he hasn't, and he pulls Batman and Vicky Vale over, and then they're hanging on.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot of dangling in this city.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. The helicopter comes, the Joker's about to escape, and Batman, with another one of his gadgets, fires a bit of rope that wraps around a statue, a gargoyle, it would be a gargoyle. I can't remember. I was just tuning this. And the Joker's leg, and he can't take the weight, and he falls to his death. And I remember seeing this thinking, shit, he's dead. I didn't expect them to kill the Joker because I thought, because obviously I've seen a TV series and the Joker. Jim is always back the next week. He's always back and he's always this. You see the Joker on the floor, and you hear the laughing, it's got laughing box or something like that. But he's like properly dead, and he's kind of like when you look at his face, it's kind of like half flattened out a little bit as well. And I was like, How are they gonna work this into getting them in the sequel? You know, and always think of the sequel.
SPEAKER_00I think the creep the the laughing box thing is very creepy to end, like that's what's left of his like demonic laugh. It's horrible, it's very effective.
SPEAKER_02So we cut to a press conference where it's like Harvey Dent and the commissioner, and they're saying the street is safe, Batman's helped us, and he said, if we need them, we can call them. They go, How'd you call them? and he reveals the big light.
SPEAKER_00The big bat torch.
SPEAKER_02The bat signal.
SPEAKER_00Bat torch, yeah, it shines in the sky.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Vicky Vicky Vale's walking away from what I presume is work that evening, and Alfred's there, and he's about to take her home, and he says, Bruce is gonna be late, and she goes, I'm not a bit surprised, and then we see the bat signal and Batman on the roof and cue the music. So, what did you think of one of my favourite superhero movies of this type of movie?
SPEAKER_00How many caveats? One of my favourite superhero movies of this type of movie was dark, darker superhero movies, you know.
SPEAKER_02It is a proper dark film.
SPEAKER_00So here's what I'm gonna say. I don't think that's a dark film. It if I was 12, I would think it was a dark film, right? I don't think that is a dark film. I think if I was 12, maybe I would, or a child or younger than that, definitely. But to me, it's so daft and camp, and Jack Nicholson is campus tits. Love Jack Nicholson, and he's having a ball and I fair play to him, and it's not at all that dark for a film that is about you know good versus evil.
SPEAKER_02But it was at the time.
SPEAKER_00I can see that might be the case. My point is at now at this point in 2026, it doesn't feel it at all. It feels like pure comic book fun. I really liked it. I didn't think I would, because I thought I was more your shite, you know. Didn't think I would. I did I tuned some of it out, I didn't follow the plot in all the bits, that's fine. But I thought it looked great. I thought the performance of Jack Nicholson was made the film, it made the film. I liked it, I just liked it.
SPEAKER_02The thing the thing with it is like so with with this, Batman's not really a superhero, he's just a rich guy who's got gadgets and forget anything about him, and I'm not gonna watch any of the Batmans, but it's fascinating.
SPEAKER_00There's not there's not much to say about him, about the character of Batman or Bruce Wayne. He's got a backstory of grief, fine. He has superpowers, he can fly. So he's just a guy in a fucking cloak.
SPEAKER_02He's guy he's a guy in a suit who's got the money to have gadgets that will aid him to do stuff.
SPEAKER_00So everything in that film is kind of potentially possible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's just a normal guy, he's just a normal he's got no powers whatsoever. He's just rich and he's a do-gooder and wanting to help the city. But what he is is very intelligent to the point where he's like a good detective. Yeah. You know, he can work things out.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so he's not really a superhero then, is he? He hasn't got any special powers.
SPEAKER_02He's just the cape crusader. He's a rich guy. He's just a vigilante with money. Well that that could be turned to the bad, couldn't it?
SPEAKER_00It has. Oh, has it?
SPEAKER_02In recent years.
SPEAKER_00I mean turned to the bad is in the character has gone bad. I don't mean badly actors.
SPEAKER_02No, not badly acted at all that the character has gone bad. No, we just had movies in recent years where they've done takes on vigilanteism that have gone dark.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I won't bring the movie up because it's it's crap.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, fine. You see, I don't this is my problem with you. My problem with you is everything no, because you you know, you made me watch Superman, and there was large pieces of that that I really enjoyed. I've no interest in watching any other version of Superman. I've seen it, I've seen it. Don't need to have someone else's take ten years later, someone else's take 20 years later. Same with this. I'm all over Batman now, I'm done. I loved it for loved is too strong a word. I really enjoyed it, and I didn't drag, and I certainly enjoyed it. Apologies for you and your feelings. I've loads more than Star Wars. This was someone who's getting behind. Yeah, it was entertaining, it felt comic booky and silly and fun. Lots of darkness peeping through, like you know, what happens to Jerry Hall, or even what happens to the Joker in the acid is pretty dark, and all that. So there's darkness peeping through, but there's such you know campness, I love it. But I don't need to see I don't I don't even know any of the Batmen.
SPEAKER_02The next one after this one is fun as well.
SPEAKER_00Who is that Batman?
SPEAKER_02Michael Keaton. Oh, did he do more than Batman? He did the one Batman Returns. Oh, okay, and it had Danny DeVito as the penguin, oh yeah, okay, baby, and Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman. And that's again really fun. It they go they go stupidly camp after that. You end up with Val Kilmer plays Batman, pretty decent take on Batman, George Clooney plays Batman. Hello, Jim Carey becomes the riddler.
SPEAKER_00It's just I'm I'm happy to leave all that alone.
SPEAKER_02After the Tim Burton movies, for a little while, they start going a bit to camp rather than some of the dark gothic tones. Then we got Christopher Nolan did the three movies which are very good, and then we've we've had bits of Batman here and there, but but yeah, I did pick this film secretly knowing you probably enjoy this one. Yeah, a bit like in our first series, Rocky, where I always said to you there's a film there you'd like.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, I had a feeling with this because it's not it's over the top, but not over the top, where you have to make up you can fly, you could do this, you could do that. Everything in this is pretty much grounded.
SPEAKER_00I didn't really get that though, and I was watching it in my head, he was flying. I didn't realise he didn't have superpowers.
SPEAKER_02But which bits do you think he was flying?
SPEAKER_00Well, he he was in the air.
SPEAKER_02Where he lowers himself down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess he does. I know, but I just thought he Just the fact he was just turned up and when he knew things needed to be sorted.
SPEAKER_02He's a good detective.
SPEAKER_00Uh I see I think he's psychic. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. Because I'm not gonna watch any others. So this so I can interpret this how I like. What what I've said already is how I thought Jack Nicholson was really well cast. Yeah. Just and every time he's on the screen, it was lit up, it was brilliant, particularly once he was a joker. But I can't, and I don't I don't want to do this, but I can't see how that joker leads to Joaquin Phoenix, or even Heath Ledger. And I've not seen either of those films, but I've I've certainly seen a lot of the chat about those films in recent times, particularly the Wookiee Phoenix one. And it's just, I'm sure that film is great. I heard a lot of people talk about it, and I think you've raved about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a good film.
SPEAKER_00So happy for those people, marvellous, great. But that feels such a different interpretation of this character. Yeah, am I right about that? Okay. And I think when it comes to films like this, they're not really my vibe. I'm not a superhero person. I know he's not a superhero now. He's a Cape Crusader. I'm not a Cape Crusader kind of girl. You know what I mean? It's not really a thing. But I much rather see this type, which is entertaining and so silly and fun at times, as well as dark, and you know, there's a plot to watching a kind of a lament about toxic masculinity. I feel like it's this is much more entertaining.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I'll I'll touch upon the other versions, you know, because I know you'd die into that.
SPEAKER_00Can't wait.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the Heath Ledger, it's just a darker take on the character. There's not as much humour in it, it's just more of a psychopath.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. The Wacky and Phoenix one is more it's not it's very loosely linked to Batman.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, there's no Batman in it at all. And it's more about a man's mental health downfall.
SPEAKER_00I'd rather see that film without it being the Joker. That film would be made in a different.
SPEAKER_02Basically, it's taxi driver. But when when you say Joker, it's not. He's not a crime boss, he's not anything. I don't look at that film as being a Batman film, Joker. It's just inspired by the character of Joker, and this is an interpretation of that character. So there's no Batman, there's no one to save the day. It's just about a man's mental health decline and how society treats an outsider.
SPEAKER_00Why make him the Joker in that film?
SPEAKER_02I think I think possibly what might have happened is they had a great story to tell about how an outsider's treated by society, and they've gone, this would fit well in with that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe. I'd just rather have seen it.
SPEAKER_02He just ends up being a joker. Like what what's the Robert De Niro film Comedy King or something where that's the one? Yeah. And again, Taxi Driver, it's about an outsider and how society treats. It's very similar to that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Anyway, moving on from your TED talk about all the characters. I like the newsroom. I like a newsroom. We've had that conversation before. So yeah, all that bustle, rushing out stories, loved all those scenes. Joker dancing to Prince, I think is just a highlight. Yeah. And it reminded me of um David Bowie. Bowie? Bowie. Yeah. Passenger Basinger. In Labyrinth.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00That kind of just enjoying the chewing up the set, loving it. I thought Michael Keaton did a good job, but I don't know if I have any right to say that because who what do I know? I don't have enough info about it.
SPEAKER_02Did you like what he did?
SPEAKER_00I did.
SPEAKER_02Well then he did a good job.
SPEAKER_00Okay. That's a very simplistic way to view a film. I did, as in, I didn't give it much thought. He was very understated, which I like.
SPEAKER_02That was a change of character.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because you can't have two massive personalities when the Joker is literally, you know.
SPEAKER_02You go back to the the the Adam West stuff. Right. Yeah. Which is the stuff we grew up with. Yes. Yeah. He was a cocky playboy billionaire.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he was a playboy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Where they've got to be. This guy doesn't. Again, a different take. He's he's very introverted.
SPEAKER_00He's just a bit nerdy. It's fine. Yeah. But I also thought, and I don't know whether this plays out in other um Batman films. So when Michael Keaton was in his get up and he was being he was being Batman. Yeah, literally you could not tell that was Michael Keaton.
SPEAKER_02I know. But one of the funny th one of the funny things with the get up, right? Because this is the first time they like you sort of like latex to you know Michael Keaton doesn't have a six-pack that I would imagine.
SPEAKER_00I'm hard.
SPEAKER_02But Batman has a six pack.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, they obviously moulded it and stuff. But the designers certainly not really thought about it. He couldn't turn his head.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So if you look, whenever he looks at when he has a conversation with someone, his whole shoulders moved to to look at the people and stuff. So a bit of a crappy design, but look great.
SPEAKER_00The point when he was like in costume as Batman though, I never for one second remember that's a bit harsh. I just kept forgetting it was Bruce Wayne because he doesn't look like it. There's no there's no link. You know, I said before about Clark Kent, he does he he's got the same hair and it's it it's just glasses and a suit. That's all the difference is. Here, it could it could have been a model, it could have been some guy. It didn't I don't know. But that's the thing.
SPEAKER_02Nobody knows it's Bruce Wayne. And why would it be the b why would the billionaire Bruce Wayne decide to beat up people overnight?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, okay. I mean, I'm I'm just I'm just this is the thoughts that I had in my head. My last thought of my own is that I wanted more prints. There weren't enough in the film considering there's a whole album to choose from.
SPEAKER_02But we got Elfman, so that was good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I yeah, fair play.
SPEAKER_02And this and I think this is one of the good things about the film, it does the right balance between that classical score and pop songs at the same time where where none are overbearing the other. You know, when prince songs come in, you're like, wow, this is fun, this is the when the Danny Elfman score kicks in, it's dark and mysterious.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Thank you for your input. Do you want some other people's thoughts?
SPEAKER_02I'd love to hear it.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Are the thoughts of people at the time or thoughts of people from I can tell you when each one was said.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So no, I can't. One is from 2019. Do you know what? What I'll tell what I will say is that when I Google, as you know I do, the film name of the film and then discourse. So Batman, and I had to put 1989 in, because otherwise, you know.
SPEAKER_02It is known as 1989 Batman.
SPEAKER_00It is, yeah. So Batman 1989 Discourse. What was really hard to sort of section out was anything actually about Batman, the character. So much about the Joker has been written, so much about Jack Nicholson's Joker. It was really interesting how Michael Keaton's Batman wasn't really the topic of many articles or you know headlines or whatever. So, Kenneth Lowe for Pace Magazine, he wrote about the look and the style of the film in general. So this is his quote. Released in June of 1989, Batman wears an injection of darkness into the veins of the nation's movie goers right in the middle of summer. It was from beginning to end, unlike any other comic book portrayal on the big screen before, and not really like any action movies either. Burton created a towering, twisted Gotham City that looks as ill as its residence, though the technology and Keaton's glasses suggest we're in the present day. The cops and robbers look straight out of the warriors that cemented Batman as an iconic character. And I could see that completely, because I really didn't feel like we were modern day. I didn't it felt like it was its own bubble. Like I said, Metropolis and Superman feels like you are literally watching New York. And I I genuinely thought it was New York until the end. Statue of Liberty is there, you know what it's it's so blatantly obvious. Where this felt like they'd created its own place, and that whole kind of it did feel a bit like 1920s cops.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's felt dated in that. Some of it's got 19 like I think Gotham's inspired by the 1920s, but obviously it's a bit modern because they're driving modern cars.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's it's a real mixture, a bit like this is the second time I've referenced this sex education. Remember on the show, it's it's it's 70s colours and old cars, but it's Monday technology. I kind of like when you mix it up.
SPEAKER_02But this this was important, and this was important why Tim Burton had to get it right with the sets, the designs, because if this hadn't happened, and we've mentioned this within Toy Story a few weeks back, superhero movies might have come at a later date, but this showed you can make a grown-up superhero film, it didn't just have to be a kid's film. This this is and this this is an interesting film, this where you could take kids to see it and they would get an element out of it, but as an adult, yeah you get more out of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I think you know, like I go through cinema listings every so often, and you get like it's 30 years since such such a film came out. It's 20 years. I think I've watched um The Bodyguard on its 20th anniversary years ago. I've watched Dirty Dancing on its probably 40th anniversary. Gotta be. No, that next year'll be 40, so maybe it was its tw 35th. I don't know. I like old films at the cinema when they're just putting them on once. And sometimes it's an old film like Star Wars, and I'm like, no, no, thanks. If this was on the big screen as a one-off because of an anniversary, I think I would go and watch it. And isn't that a weird thing for you to do?
SPEAKER_02I'll come with you because I've never seen this on the big screen.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Thought you had. Oh no, I had.
SPEAKER_02No, I had. Actually, I went to I went to Wigan. I went to Wigan to see this. The first time I watched it was on pirate videotape.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, that's terrible. You cannot use pirate tape.
SPEAKER_02Well, this was the 80s.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god. Okay, but you did the whole thing at the end of last week going, this is the first film I could go and watch because I was old enough to be told.
SPEAKER_02I did. It was it was Wigan Cinema.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Alright, but the point is, I've never felt like that about any other of your films. But I think this would actually be quite fun.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And daft. But and I'm an adult. You know I don't like kids' films.
SPEAKER_02I'd love to hear this in a modern cinema with the music and the soundtrack.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay, so somebody, this is on a forum called the Quarter to Quarter to Three Forums. Honestly, I was, you know, finding all sorts. So this is just somebody called Funcula.
SPEAKER_02Funcula. I mean, it was the slate last night. I'd never heard of that before. I've never heard of this one. That is a thing.
SPEAKER_00The slate is definitely a thing. But this, yeah, so it but it's the fact it's just one person who's posted on a forum, but I found it interesting because he said, I think Burton's Batman sucks. There is exactly one thing he gets right, and that is the visual style and design of Gotham City and its contents. Jack Nicholson plays his one character, and it's a poor fit for the Joker. Harsh. The best thing I can say about Michael Keaton is that he's unremarkable. Burton apparently believes that one of Batman's core competencies is getting shot in the chest a bunch, and standing up and scaring the crap out of people who shot him, since this happens three fucking times over the course of this movie. Okay. That's a bad taste. Hang on, but let's give Funcula some credit. What I liked is that he was basically commenting on the visual style and design of Gotham City. Because I think that made it for me. If they'd just done New York and called it Gotham City, or anywhere and called it Gone City, I don't know, this felt such a comic book. Yeah. It's it's it felt like it I could picture the the pictures of it being drawn out on a storyboard.
SPEAKER_02I think this is the combination of the perfect director, the perfect casting all coming together to create a great film.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I agree with you. I think Tim Bur Tim Burton, I don't rush to his things because they you know they're usually quite creepy or chilling or whatever. So I've still never ever seen Edward Scissor Hands, and it's I'm alright with that.
SPEAKER_02I love Edward Scissor Hands.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm alright with it. But you know, Johnny Depp was everywhere in our youth, wasn't he? It's a heart rob. And pictures of him, posters of him as Edward Scissor Hands were all over the place. But I did I only watch Beetlejuice a few years ago, like as an adult, but I did watch Edward when that came out. Do you ever see Edward? Never seen Edward. I was alright. But yeah, this was sort of yeah, this was a big deal when he was cast.
SPEAKER_02Is he? And it looks really good. Yeah. Yeah, it looks really fun.
SPEAKER_00The film experience, which is a blog site, this is by Chris Feel or Fail, not sure how you pronounce that one.
SPEAKER_02Basing a passenger.
SPEAKER_00Indeed, yeah. And he talks about the Prince soundtrack and the fact that Prince had his album called Batman. Here's the quote. Prince actually adopts more of the Joker's persona than Batman's, despite the album title, or at least his more mischievous side, without the spectre of violence. It's an album that invokes cityscapes and a heavy dose of sleaze, almost like an assemblage of propaganda tunes from when Nicholson's Joker eventually deceives the citizens of Gotham. And yeah, I thought that Prince I I think all of the good bits about this film for me are the outrageous bits. And I think Prince popping in.
SPEAKER_02But how outrageous is it the fact that right there's a song for this movie is outrageous. It is an album.
SPEAKER_00Love it, love it. But I just think all of the overblown massive things in this film, like the Jokers with Jack Nicholson's performance, or like the music, yeah, this Prince music particularly, are just the bits that hook me in and make me kind of entertained.
SPEAKER_02Well it effectively, right. This is a Jack Nicholson film, a joke. It feels like it really does rather than a Batman film.
SPEAKER_00That one is so understated.
SPEAKER_02But that's the good thing about it. Oh, it's not a criticism. Bruce Wayne should be understated because you do, you know, the general public should be going, I wonder if he's Batman. I wonder if he's Batman. Yeah, yeah. You know, the fact he's so understated, nobody gets it. Yeah. And I I think that works. You know, Vicky Vale's completely shocked when she realises he's Batman.
SPEAKER_00I've got one last thing to share in terms of another person's opinion. And I really enjoyed this to read this article got me thinking so much, but it is heavy going, it's quite involved, it's not a quick blog or it's not funcular on a forum. This is from Americana, the Journal of American Popular Culture 1900 to present. Wow. So obviously, I didn't read the whole journal, I just read this article.
SPEAKER_02You do disappoint me, Nikki.
SPEAKER_00This is by Maria Rodriguez. And so there's a couple of a couple of quotes, but it's really it's it's like a dissertation level stuff. It's really interesting. But it's looking at how, well, this is a quote. In the 1980s, it saw the rise of neoliberalism, so the Joker embodied anxiety surrounding America's inner cities, right? So Joker is embodying this kind of fear and panic that people in cities had in the 80s racially, right? So Andrew Ross in 1990, so we're kind of citing all the people in the things we're citing. This is proper like you know, this is essay level stuff. Andrew Ross, 1990, claims that in Batman's World, blackness gets shunted off onto the Joker who parodies minstrel blackface.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So that's his quote, Andrew Ross. Then Maria Rodriguez carries on. For example, he speaks in rapish rhymes and movies moves his body in a shapeless jive. The Joker's visage even consists of thick red lips, a wide grin, protruding teeth, and at times of stress, round eyes, all of which are distinct traits of the derisive portrayals of African Americans in early 20th century minstrelry, such as Al Jolson and the Jad Singer from 1927. Furthermore, the Joker's purple suit with padded shoulders is evocative of gangsters, pimps, and the zoot suits that precipitated riots in Los Angeles during World War II. And I carried on reading this whole deep deep dive into all this, and it was fascinating. And obviously, I'm watching this, and we're all watching this, to be entertained and it's fun and it's fascinating. But the idea just to just think back on it and go, oh, yeah, interesting, that they kind of create whether it's intentional or whether it's just the way society at the time was making it come through. The Joker being this sort of f over to be feared, and they've sort of has managed to incorporate some potentially stereotypical things from like the back of white minstrels. When you think about the smile, you go, okay. Interesting.
SPEAKER_02I find all this fascinating, and it's it's interesting that this article has pulled that out. I used to work with a guy who used to do a lot about the history of fashion. This is where I worked in the hairdresser world. Yeah. Some of the things he used to tell you, just day-to-day things, like you know, like the fashion where you had like a metal chain on your jeans that was visible and stuff. And he and he told me about that it was done during the war, and it was the eldest boy would wear this chain to show he had the keys to the house, and he was now the man of the house and things like that. So when you're now picking on like the Joker with his shoulder pads to show gangsters, it's all interestingly worked into it and showing, you know. We as you say, it glosses over us, but we we know it without realising it.
SPEAKER_00Fashion is so political, and I look fascinated by it. But this piece, it's so it's American Americana, the Journal of American Popular Culture, 1900 to present. Anyone who's vaguely interested in smidge should definitely look that up by Mario Rodriguez, and the links will all these links will be in the show notes. It was such an interesting read. Fascinating.
SPEAKER_02I might have a look at that one myself. Next week, it's your turn to choose the film. Have you decided what it's going to be?
SPEAKER_00Oh my goodness, I have, and I am excited about this, and you are going to struggle. Not because of the film itself, although maybe, but because of the way you're gonna have to watch it. Right.
SPEAKER_02So upside down on my head?
SPEAKER_00Well, you'll prefer that. It's completely random, and we've missed the optimum time to watch it, which would have been June, July 26th, because it's about the World Cup. Oh the soccer world cup. But we're gonna call it soccer. But we're gonna call it football because we are English people.
SPEAKER_02Do you know? Do you know? I just want to point out now while you say soccer, I think it's gonna be nice to hear two English people talking about it. Because I've heard other podcasts with Americans where they think they're experts talking about soccer and some of the stuff.
SPEAKER_00Cut this out. No, you know we've got American people, so just so this is a TV adaptation of a play from I think 90. Well, I think the the TV adaptation is from 94, but I think the play is from 92, and I'm kind of guessing at the moment because I've not got all the details in front of me. And it is called An Evening with Gary Lineker. Oh, nice! Right, and it's boss, and I watch it every time we've got a big tournament with the England men's team. Okay, so World Cups and Euros. I always watch it because it is about and it's set in Italia 90, not in Italy, it's set around the time of Italia 90, which was the Italian World Cup in 1990. It was my first World Cup, loved it, and this play captures the excitement of England nearly doing well. We don't quite do well. We've done well since. But we did well then as well. We did do well, we just didn't win or come second or third. But the problem you're gonna have is it isn't available anywhere.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00But some lovely person has put it on YouTube in sections filmed off their telly with I think it's like, you know, East Anglia adverts or something. Oh my god. So you're gonna have to watch it, it's only like an hour and a half long, but you are gonna watch it on YouTube. And I think you'll well, you might not enjoy it, but you'll definitely have things to say about it.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And if people want more, where can they find you?
SPEAKER_00I'm at nikkibon.com, or you can look for the Lees and a call if stories online. How about you?
SPEAKER_02I can be at Toffees Arros on YouTube or Phil Timon on TikTok. Thanks for listening. Until next time. Bye bye. And where's Batman? He's at home washing his tight. Bye bye.