4D Human Being Podcast

Top Teams: From Vulnerability to Reliability

• 4D Human Being

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What if trust isn't just something that magically appears in teams, but rather something you can actively build? In this insightful exploration of team dynamics, Philippa and Penelope Waller unpack the often mysterious concept of trust and transform it into practical, actionable strategies that anyone can implement.

At the heart of this episode lies a powerful revelation: trust operates through two distinct channels. Personal trust, built through vulnerability and relationship-building, offers the quickest path to connection but carries inherent risks. Meanwhile, predictive trust develops through consistency and reliability, creating a foundation of dependability that teams can count on. Both approaches are essential, yet many of us unconsciously favor one over the other based on our personal histories and preferences.

Through vivid examples—including an unexpectedly perfect analogy involving Elsa's costume change in Frozen—the hosts illustrate how seamless collaboration depends entirely on trust. When team members can't rely on each other, even the most talented individuals fail to achieve their collective potential. Conversely, when trust flourishes, teams can accomplish seemingly impossible feats through synchronized effort.

The discussion delves into practical communication strategies that build rather than erode trust. From avoiding the overuse of "Reply All" emails (which often serve as subtle accountability weapons) to understanding how different team members need to receive information, these actionable insights help navigate the complex human terrain of teamwork. Perhaps most importantly, the hosts emphasize the need to step toward rather than away from difficult conversations, recognizing that avoidance only widens trust gaps.

Whether you're leading a team, working within one, or simply navigating relationships in your personal life, this episode offers transformative perspectives on how to create environments where trust can thrive. Try their closing challenge: spend 80% of your time focused on brilliant communication with your team for just one week. The results might surprise you by Friday afternoon.

Speaker 1:

Hello, my name is Philippa Waller, my name is Penelope Waller and we are two of the directors at 4D Human being. And welcome to the 4D Human being podcast. What's it all about, pen? It's all about your personal and professional relationships. It's about your communication skills, how you lead, how you work and build teams, how you are looking after yourself and your well-being, and how you are much more at choice. What do we mean by that? Well, sometimes we can get a little caught in patterns in life and we can all be a little bit on our automatic pilot. So 40 human being is all about helping us get back to choice and being a four-dimensional human being, and your fourth dimension, of course, is intention. So, whether it's about your impact, your leadership style, your team dynamics, whether it's about your well-being, whether it's about your communication or your presentation skills anything that involves human beings interacting with other human beings 40 Human being are here to help. We're going to take a deep dive and look at some tools, insights, theories that are going to help you go from a 3D human doing to a 4D human being, so that you can happen to the world rather than the world simply happening to you.

Speaker 1:

We were looking very white and beige today. Well, I nearly put on a beige jacket over a white T-shirt, so we were nearly identical. So there we go. Last stories of summer. Yeah, last stories of summer. Actually, it's very grey here, but the garden's delighted. So, yes, can imagine. I mean, can I super segue with that? Oh my, we're straight. We're straight in because maybe we'll come back to a little intro chat. There is a super segue there around. You know, for one part of the world the rain is wonderful, for another part the sun is. And you know we're going to be talking about teams for the next three weeks and you know you cannot please everybody all the time. You've got different, different needs. Sometimes it's raining, sometimes it's sunny I mean, the analogies could run and run here and sometimes you need rain to make the team grow. Anyway, we'll come back to that.

Speaker 1:

But I'm excited, really excited, to talk about teams and, of course, like any of our conversations, it's not just professional, because in teams it's like being in a family totally, or a group of friends, and all of those patterns and dynamics really show up. And you know we don't sit on our high cloud here at 4D, we sit as human beings as well. Well, it's really interesting, isn't it? The family analogy, because of course, we do very often talk about the fact that you, kind of you, get shaped as a human being based on the tribe that you're in, based on the family that you're in. I mean, there's research saying, you know, depending on the order of which you were born in a sibling hierarchy, that will sort of to some extent, define some qualities about you, and of course, there is a truth to that, also in a team, in terms of who you are, how you show up, who you're becoming. So it's both how you show up in a team, but of course, remember, the team is also shaping you absolutely important stuff. So exactly you are oh, I'm gonna say this because I just found it so funny, I think I sent it to you.

Speaker 1:

It's very, uh, it's slightly blue, so anybody with children listening. Uh, although I will abbreviate it, but I loved that it was a design of the word team in capital letters and it said there's no I in team. But if you write the word team in big block capitals, the gaps in the A create an I. You know a capital A. You've got like a dot and a line. Oh yeah. So it said there's no I in team except in the A hole. I just thought it was absolutely brilliant. That is brilliant. You're absolutely right. We bring our stuff to teams and the team also pushes in on us.

Speaker 1:

And I mean, yeah, I remember being in a group. I wouldn't call it a team, it was a group for vet. I won't go into why I was in it, but but the person right or why you defined it as a group, you know, you know back in the back in the the history of time, but the person running the group it was all male except me. And the person running the group said, oh, you know, sort of Philippa as the mother of the group. I was in my 20s, not a mother, and really didn't identify with that and I thought, god, the group, well, certainly he was really pulling me into a role that I didn't want and it's a really good example of how we are navigating at a really fundamental dynamic level. Yeah, and a lot of resentment and anger that can build up might well be because you are being pushed into a role you know be the helper or the, you know, the one who always takes care of everybody, or whatever it is that you resent. Actually you don't want to be that role. Why should I? It's probably the language that will come up.

Speaker 1:

Anyway, we're sort of diving into detail. Shall we sort of highlight the themes we're going to be looking at? So I mean, it's yeah, the topic pulls me in. Do you know what I mean? Like you really want to get stuck in Totally, and, of course of of course, we could talk, for you know endless episodes about teams. We have chosen, kind of three specific areas to talk about over the over the coming weeks, which you know again. So, as happens so often with our topics on the podcast, they seem to be so prevalent at the moment, with our clients as well. Everyone's sort of coming back after the summer. Yeah, so we're going to be looking at teams, team dynamics, and we're going to be looking at teams, team dynamics, and we're going to be looking at three specific topic areas, aren't we? We're going to start today with trust and communication. Do you know?

Speaker 1:

It's a really funny word. We'll dive into it, obviously, but it's used a lot and I don't think people really think much about what's behind that word and what it actually means to you individually, because it means different things, doesn't it? Yes, and I think we were saying last night, with trust, you sort of hope you have it and then you're disappointed when it goes and you don't really know how you got it and you don't know how to get it back. And we want to, we want to sort of it's like, it's like magic. I think it's there, I hope it's there. You know, it's a bit like a religion, I. I think I believe in trust and then suddenly, suddenly, it lets you down. You're confused because hang on a minute, I thought I thought trust would take care of this. Yes, and if it goes, it's just, it's just literally sucked down, a vortex, like you know, the costume change in Frozen, the musical. When her dress is just whipped through the hole in the stage, you're just like that's gone, it's gone. So we're going to. I was wearing truss and now I'm naked. I haven't met. So everything's God.

Speaker 1:

I love that clip, phil. I watched it a thousand times. I'm obsessed with it. Well, penn, super, segue me up right. Nice here, laura, because you know why we love that, because no, that, because no. Well, I'm going to tell you why we love it so much and why, oh, so many of those documentaries doesn't know there's clips online of the broadway version of disney's frozen, the musical, and the bit that's that's just gone viral is the bit where elsa changes it from her sort of princess costume into her icy queen costume. And obviously in the cartoon film of it, obviously it was instantaneous she just spins around and it's a cartoon. Yeah, but they've done it on stage. It's just amazing, yeah. So Google it, google it.

Speaker 1:

The reason we love that and the reason we love watching, like the making of, there's a BBC Radio 4 show that I love, the Reunion, which goes back on events or shows or projects Behind the scenes kind of thing. It brings people together. It's because the feeling of creativity and collaboration coming together is overwhelming for us. It's just, it's like some sort of primal joy. And so if you think about the number of pieces and the trust that the Elsa on stage has at that moment that she's in the middle of crescendoing up into a high peak of her song, let it go, let it go. And if that dress doesn't, if that dress doesn't change, if that dress doesn't let go, then the whole show is down the pan and she's, she's the one standing on, she's exactly, exactly, pen. It's such a wonderful analogy because she's exposed, she's out there, she's completely vulnerable, she's singing her heart out.

Speaker 1:

You've got all these, not just an audience, children who want the magic. I mean the stakes couldn't be higher. And then you've got. You've got this one costume woman down there fumbling with a lock on a trap door and trying to find the right ribbon and string. Hopefully that's sewn on well enough to pull the dress off. Hopefully Elsa pulls her arms down by, because she's got her arms up, and then she's yeah, you almost can't see it she puts, she just flicks her arms down so that they're straight, so she's like a pencil, so the dress can be. I mean, it's so. That is teamwork. It's so teamwork and everybody needs to come together in that moment. Yeah, and that's why we love it.

Speaker 1:

And nobody can say at the bottom, they can't say, well, elsa, you're not quite standing in the right position, so that we, you know, we can't, we can't do it down here, like there's no room for this isn't working for me, absolutely. You've got to make this work. You've got to make this work. I mean, that's the piece I really love about the world of theatre and film. It's that piece, and when I talk to actors who've left the business, that's the piece they miss. It's not the applause, it's not the awards, it's not the accolades, it's the collaboration in the rehearsal process and during the production. That's the magic. It's being in the room with other people who are all looking at making one thing brilliant.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, which is a super segue in so many ways, phil, in terms of our second episode, we're going to look at collaboration and, of course, in teams. Ideally, you similarly do have that single or multiple but aligned goals. You're all sort of moving in the same direction, which is what makes great teams work so well, exactly. Yeah, the analogy of the theatre is perfect. So the first one is trust, the second one is collaboration, and then the third one, and actually I'm going to add to collaboration and being good to work with. Yeah, and it's sort of taking responsibility for that ourselves as opposed to why aren't they good to work with? How do we make, how do we ensure we're good to work with, so we get more agency over this.

Speaker 1:

And then the last one we're going to look from toxic to healthy teams and we're going to include in that leading teams, and obviously that's a real light touch, because that's a whole other topic. But you know really recognizing some of the toxic patterns, because the other thing about at leading teams, obviously that's a real light touch, because that's a whole other topic. But you know really recognising some of the toxic patterns, because the other thing about teams, of course, like families, is it becomes the water in your goldfish bowl, like you know, the toxicity or the little, the jibes, or the little eye roll in the corner, or the person that you don't really work with or communicate with, or the person that you just have very spiky emails with, it starts getting normalized. Yeah, yeah, totally, and we can't see it anymore and you don't maybe realize at a fully conscious level that you're working in a toxic I mean toxic, strong, but in an unhealthy team. But actually drip, drip, drip, chip, chip, chip is going to have an impact on you and suddenly you've got disgruntled people, you've got low productivity, low creativity, local collaboration and and then you're just running through all our previous that, our two previous episodes, and it just all caves in. So, yeah, and in fact, in a way, you know, we talk about this as well in terms of leaders that one has worked for in a way, even though it can be really tough to have a, you know a leader that you find really difficult, or working in a team that feels a little bit toxic or a little bit dysfunctional. Of course, they are very often where you learn some very important lessons in terms of how you show up and how you operate. I mean, if it's all plain sailing, it's quite difficult for us to develop and grow. So you know, it can be useful as long as you're conscious about what's happening and develop from it.

Speaker 1:

Well, do you know what, pam? There's a couple of things in that, you know. One is absolutely that it's owning your part in something. You know it's the old. You know, in every team it takes two to tango, and I love a tango and it definitely takes two to tango. You always manage to pull dancing, pam.

Speaker 1:

And the other thing that's really interesting about that is in a therapeutic sort of journey development relationship quite often you find yourself having conversations around with all of the development and personal work that you can do. There are some things that are really hard to know about yourself and change about yourself without working on them in relationship. You know, because you can conceive of the idea of well, you know, next time I'm in a difficult relationship like that, I will, but you can't, really you cannot develop that muscle until you're in it. So that's the gift that the difficult person in your team can offer you is such an opportunity for development because they won't be the last to show up in your life and the you is such an opportunity for development because they won't be the last to show up in your life and the pattern will keep playing out and, as we always say, you're the one who's going to suffer. Yeah, and it's not easy.

Speaker 1:

Um, so I want, I want to introduce this with love, history and love. I heard, I heard the other day. I heard that someone says, somebody was saying I couldn't really decide what to do at university. I think he was an American. So they created, they created yes, I heard that it was philosophy, psychology and history and I went yeah, that would be the dream to a lot of history podcasts and have gone right down the tunnel with both. The rest is history and we have ways of making you talk and what's really interesting about listening to a lot of the stories around. They've done long episodes on sort of d-day and dunkirk and all kinds of you know different, different periods in history as well.

Speaker 1:

What has struck me again and again and again is yes, you need the right resources in a battle and, yes, you need all the equipment and you need the truth. You know you need the stuff, like in a team, you need the people, you need the resources. The times that it goes wrong without fail is when they've got poor communication and poor collaboration. They've got poor communication and poor collaboration I mean without fail even when you've got one side of a battle that are definitely the favourites, like way more people, way more pitchforks or guns or whatever it is they're fighting with. You know, but Can go downhill very quickly if there's no collaboration 100%, because you don't know where anyone else is. You know it's the Elsa dress. You don't know where the woman is who's going to pull your dress, like it's over.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think perhaps we don't necessarily always recognise that A hundred percent, we can very often think as individuals. Perhaps we are experts and we know our stuff. We've done this a million times. All of those things which there's a truth to that, of course that's important. All of those things which is there's a truth to that, of course that's important. But boy, there are some brilliant stories out there about when collaboration breaks down and the whole thing just falls to pieces. Exactly it's. It's remarkable how quickly things can fall apart, and you're so right that I think we, often the debates when things get tough, can be about, yes, being overworked, not having enough resources, not having enough people, having targets that are unrealistic, any number of things, or but the way through always is great communication, and I think that gets missed as sort of again, a bit like trust, a bit like, well, it's just the bit that that just happens, doesn't it like that? That's just the bit we have to do to get the thing we want, but of course you sort of need to flip it if you do that to do to get the thing we want, but of course you still need to flip it. If you do that, well, you'll get the thing you want.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we'll mention communication in terms of the pitfalls that we fall into, maybe a little bit later in this podcast, because I was talking about it yesterday with some clients about the importance of communication to build trust, and there are some little pitfalls we fall into into the corporate environment that inadvertently do the opposite to what we think it's going to do. So we might talk about that. Well, let's start with the absolute foundation of trust. And if I very quickly, because we are not going to do a huge piece on the Lencioni dysfunctions of a team model today, but let's just very quickly go through the five layers of it. Very quickly go through the five layers of it, and this is a model whereby we may have mentioned it before and there'll be a video of it coming out soon where you can, it's just, it's a very nice model to identify. Are you good in all these areas to build high performing teams? And if you're not, then you've probably got a dysfunctional team.

Speaker 1:

And if you think of it on a pyramid, the bottom, the base, the foundation, the biggest piece is trust. The next layer up is healthy conflict, which I always think is so interesting because, of course, it's avoided a lot of the time, and that's really about great communication that's robust. The next one up is accountability. The next one up is shared purpose. That's what, that's what we commitment. Yeah, I think of it as shared purpose, but it's the commitment to the thing I'm doing, this. And then the next one up is the actual results, the numbers, the targets, the aligned goals, the aligned goals and all those things that you hit. So what I love about that, of course, is, like a house, the foundation is trust, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

So, okay, talk about trust. Well, I'll just mention, for those of anybody who hasn't heard of the Patrick Lencioni model, he wrote a book it was quite a number of years ago now called the Five Dysfunctions of a Team. He's written subsequent books, also great. His original book that we're referring to is the Five Dysfunctions of a Team. It's really really worth reading. In fact, it's really worth giving to all of your team members to read. It's a really short book to read. It's a really short book. It's written both as a sort of a fictional but kind of realistic and insightful stories to highlight what goes wrong in teams and organisations, and then he sort of diagnoses and gives exercises to do, and it's all based on this model. It's a really great book. So take a look at that. So, yeah, so we're going to talk about trust today and we'll get on to some of the other pieces in future episodes of this podcast.

Speaker 1:

So the foundation of trust and you can think about that in a number of ways that you're trusting our teammates. Psychological safety, which we talked a lot about today and in fact I was also talking yesterday about. There was a project, aristotle, done by Google a while ago and they were looking at who are the most high performing teams in their organisation and what kind of makes them stand apart. Psychological safety without, without question. So it's been proved time and time again. Well, if you think about it, really makes me think of, you know, jumping out of an aeroplane with an instructor. Or you know trust games that you used to play we used to play as actors and you know those sort of exercises where you fall backwards into. You know you trust that the group are behind and going to catch you. But and you know we can sort of you know a bit hackneyed, a bit cliche, but point being, if you think about those as touchstones for trust, you literally wouldn't do anything, you wouldn't act at all if you didn't trust. That's right.

Speaker 1:

And, to be clear, it's not the same as liking Like, it's not the same as, oh, I really love my colleagues. Yes, you can have a really nice friendship in tandem with trust, but it's not essential. You can have trust without that kind of friendship. So it's quite a different thing. And I guess the first thing I would say is we're not going to spend time on this today.

Speaker 1:

But you will have different ways personally in terms of your attitude to trust and how you build trust, and that will be based partly on what you've inherited genetically, but also how you've been socially conditioned. So some of us will go in with full trust 100 and, to see if it gets broken, hope it doesn't. Others of us will go in with with zero, anywhere in between, and and we'll build it up from there. Just to say on that, because that feels really important, pen, nothing, neither of that is right and wrong. That is based no, that is based on your experience. Yes, totally, and you will intuitively make decisions based on probably quite rational reasons. The other thing to say as well is that it can be really quick to build trust when there is sort of identity at play, and by that we mean, for example, if you share a religion or if you're on the same sports team. If you have something where there is a very, very strong shared identity or value set, you're more likely to trust somebody very quickly and very inherently. So there's that to mention as well. So we have different ways of taking on trust.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the most interesting things to think about, which is what we're going to really spend time on today is we were talking about this that trust can feel like this slightly sort of magical thing where it's either there or it's not. And regardless of your attitude in terms of how you build trust do you go in with 100% or do you go in low and build it up over time we can change the trust game. So if there isn't enough trust in the team or with even other colleagues in different teams or clients that you have to work with, I think we can be in danger of thinking either it's not my fault or there's not much I can do about it. And that's where this trust building comes in that we're going to talk about today and actually the different ways that you can think about trust and the different ways that you can build it. So it's not just some magical thing out there that happens, yeah, or that may happen, yeah, or some people are trustworthy and some people aren't, and that's it and that's it and that's it. And of course, there might be an element to that. But of course, you know, I was listening to a podcast about you know, pablo Escobar. Now you'd look at a sort of drugs cartel and go low trust, but of course, at some levels within that there's high tribal trust, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So it's not about good and bad, it's about relationship, exactly exactly so. If you think about the team that you work in and if you think about how much trust there is generally across the team and for you specifically, with other colleagues. And I would also offer to think about different teams within your organization that you work with, because sometimes the trust can be a bit lower with other teams, um, other other divisions. So first of all, think about that and then think about would it be nice, in any area, to have a bit more trust somewhere? And even if you're sitting there thinking, no, it doesn't matter, or it's not, it's not my, it's not my problem to solve, just take a moment. Take a moment. Yeah, they're the a-hole in the team, I don't care, yeah, exactly exactly, they can, they can order whatever.

Speaker 1:

So we're going to think about trust in two different ways and also one big kind of watch out as well. So the two ways to. I mean there's lots of ways to think about trust, but I think this is a really simple and really clear way to think about it, one way to think about building trust and establishing trust is personal trust that's both relationships and vulnerability and the second way is predictive trust and that is about consistency and reliability and predictiveness in terms of your actions and behaviours. So the first one is much more relational. The second one is about your behaviours and actions and these have been proved to be, you know, as general categories, the two main ways that we tend to build trust in relationship, and they are very, very prevalent in teams.

Speaker 1:

So personal and predictive would be the kind of summary. I trust that my window cleaner will turn up and leave a bill in my letterbox every, you know, six or eight minutes, you know, but it's true because I'm just like there it is, it's on the it's, so it's so regular, exactly, exactly, and, and I think to a certain extent, with both of them we can sort of accept patterns. I mean, particularly with the predictive trust again, I was talking about this yesterday that when we enter into a role, often, often, not always, but often we sort of inherit a set of processes and procedures and the way things are done around here. Yes, yes, and that might work well, and it might work well for everybody. It might not. And how often do we sit down and think right, I'm going to look at how consistent and reliable the processes are across the team. Well, I'll tell you how often I sit down and think about that, ben, as I'm charging ahead across the landscape inventing a new project. Not very often, yeah. So both of these things are really important.

Speaker 1:

So maybe let's start with the personal trust first. Yes, so can I share a story about this? Yeah, go on, go, go. So I'm going to bring dance in again, obviously. So, my first dance competition, and there was another female there who was dancing from the same teacher as me and we'd seen each other, we sort of passed each other, but we'd never particularly talked, and I mean not there's particularly a reason to. But you know, we're both women of a certain age, we both love dance, but never really chatted, and I would say that was fairly true for the two or three other women who were there. We did the dance competition and, firstly, we're building suddenly we're building a different relationship because we're all nervous. So, firstly, we're all suddenly exposing something about ourselves. We're not just sort of turning up to a lesson and oh, hello, hello, we're going. Oh, ah, why are we doing this? So suddenly there's that, there's that reveal and throughout the day, and then we're celebrating each other and within one day, things have really shifted. At the end of the day, I go to change.

Speaker 1:

Before I went to meet you and your girls for a pizza and and I'm in the room where everyone's changing with this one particular female that I mentioned at the beginning and she said to me wouldn't this crazy ballroom world make a great documentary? And she said imagine all the stories that people have got. And I went oh my goodness, you're so right. And I went oh my goodness, you're so right. And for some reason I shared with her that I'd taken up ballroom dancing after the loss of a partner, after he died. I said it was, it was incredible because and it was a really I didn't say much, I just said it was really wonderful, because what it meant was I was really in the early stages of grief, but for 90 minutes on a Thursday night, you can't. I wasn't thinking about anything else, I was just dancing and I've written an article about that dancing through a downpour, which you can find on our website. She then revealed that she'd been through something very difficult two years ago and she danced her way through it as well and the shift in our relationship. Yeah, and it was a five minute conversation. Yeah, there you go. Well, that I mean beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Segue, phil, onto personal trust. So split that into two vulnerability and relationships. I would probably offer that vulnerability is the quickest way to build trust. It's got more risk to it, obviously, because you are disclosing something, you are exposing something about yourself. So you do have to tread cautiously with it, particularly if there's low trust existing. But it's very quick and we often say don't we?

Speaker 1:

If you're, if you're in a, if you're meeting new people, you're in a new group of friends and one or two of them sort of portray their lives as if everything's perfect and there's nothing ever wrong, they don't make any mistakes, they have no self-doubt. It's quite hard to establish a deep trust and a deep connection with somebody. You know we're much more likely to connect as human beings when we talk a little bit more openly about our shared flaws. So vulnerability can be anything from sharing a difficult story about yourself, admitting mistakes, asking for feedback, anything really where you're just kind of lowering the guard a little bit and sort of demonstrating I don't think I'm perfect and I'm sort of happy to share that with you. So it's quick, it's high risk, so you know, just think about who you're doing that with. But if there is a good enough level of trust within your team or with somebody, it's a really quick way to make bonds very deep.

Speaker 1:

Can I offer a really nice tool to help out with that feeling that it can feel like all or nothing, with vulnerability and I? I love a concentric circle model. They're almost always my favorite models and I did this with a client who struggled with knowing quite what to reveal more for neurodivergent reasons. If you think about the outer circle, you could tell someone you go general, so you reveal something, but it's general. Yeah, I've got quite a lot going on at the moment. That's a bit tough and that might be enough and this is to keep you safe with thinking about psychological safety.

Speaker 1:

The next layer in you might be specific. I've actually just you. You know an uncle who I was very close to has just died and I'm really I'm feeling, I'm struggling at the moment. You might be specific about the event. These are both events. The next circle in you might you might say what you think about that. So you know, I had an uncle that died and I've really been thinking about loss and spending time with people that I really care about, because it's really brought some things up for me. So you might reveal something about your thinking. And then the fourth one, right in the center of the circle. You might then reveal and I've actually been having some really difficult times and I'm feeling quite alone with that actually so you can actually stage, stage your, how much you open to people, because your boundaries are your right, you know exactly. But it just helps us not feel like it's an all or nothing with vulnerability. Totally that's a really good kind of process and sort of levels to think about when you are disclosing yeah, um, the other, the other way. Certainly in a corporate context, that might be useful to think about. Vulnerability. It might be.

Speaker 1:

We use a sort of a quick one plus one model here. So you might say something like well, I was really pleased about what I contributed to this project. Was this? What I could have done better? Or what I need to work on is this? Or you might say to somebody would you mind sharing with me one thing that's been working really well about our collaboration or teamwork over the past month and one thing that you're not that happy about that. You'd love to see better. So you can sort of push into imperfections or mistakes or feedback gently, and also by balancing. I'm so proud of this, I'm so great at this and you know that's an area that I could definitely work on. Yeah, exactly, and and definitely as leaders. If we can model that to our teams, it kind of gives permission to them that, okay, it's safe enough to do that here. That is something we do here and that's the one plus one. One plus one. It's not only I mean, really you can you can think about that in terms of development and growth, but it can be a massive trust builder as well. So, so that I just touch on the modeling again, just because I feel us and we will pick this up in the third episode about leadership but just that you're doing more, you're modeling this is safe here. So, yeah, you're getting a lot more from it, totally, and you're modeling that.

Speaker 1:

Stepping into vulnerability. Trust is a way that we we do build trust in this team, which, as I said before, it is the quickest way, even if it's got a little bit more risk. Yes, and there's a watch out there as a leader. Isn't there there that, if you're going, why don't my people trust me or trust each other, and you're very closed because you think, as a leader, they shouldn't know anything about you. That's in any way vulnerable, then no surprise, totally, totally. And then the other side of that, maybe briefly on. This is just more general personal trust and this is about relationship building. Of course, there's many ways to do this. You know I've mentioned before. I remember a boss I used to work with who used to walk through the open plan office in the building and just knew something about everybody, and I mean it was just. It was such a trustful environment.

Speaker 1:

One thing you can do, of course, is appreciation, and we spoke about this yesterday and I would offer for any of you who are working in an environment where you really feel there needs to be more trust, I would offer pick somebody that perhaps is a little bit more challenging for you in terms of trust levels and if 90 percent of what they do fills you with mistrust or disappointment or frustration or whatever it might be, what's the 10 percent that they do? That is valuable, because if you appreciate them for that, they are effectively getting the stroke for that good behaviour. So they will start trusting you more and then hopefully show more of that trustful behaviour. So appreciation can be really useful. I had this conversation with a client yesterday, exactly this that the frustration when somebody interrupts you or you can see by the lack of poker face that they don't like the idea that you're putting in, and you know how frustrating it is. And actually what's interesting about this is that in this case there was plenty of liking, so okay, but there wasn't that. Yeah, it wasn't that. It wasn't that they like you know, definitely like the person really admired them in many ways because they were quite front footed but didn't trust their response to this particular person's shared ideas. And I had exactly the same response as you, pen, I said.

Speaker 1:

You know, what's so interesting is it's a bit like we started with at the beginning of this. You go into that meeting holding your breath, just hoping, just hoping that they won't roll their eyes or interrupt you and just hoping that you can trust that. You know either in fact there's both there. There's both the relational trust and the predictive trust sort of hoping that maybe this time they won't do that, rather than spending that moment a day before or even an hour before, yeah, building the relationship and saying I really, really appreciate it when you know you challenge me and I'd love us to really, you know, make that a part of what we do and to be, you know, to take a moment in the meeting actually for us to it doesn't be so, it's not underhand, it's not sort of hidden and equally, even after, if you feel like the eyes have been rolled, go and have the, you know. So I just want to check in because I'm wondering. If you didn't like it, I'd love to because I love hearing your opinion, because you've always got really strong, you know quick ideas and you know, and I said you will notice within such a short space of time, that behaviour will stop because you've changed the trust relationship Invest, invest, invest and don't just hope and pray. Exactly, exactly, phil.

Speaker 1:

I mean it's active management of the trust and, you know, pulling it back to that Lencioni model, the trust being the absolute foundation. I know sometimes we can think, oh, you know, we've got to just make the decision, we've got to do the thing we need to do, or haven't got time for that, or it's so important, it's so important to spend a little bit of time at least on that trust building. So I know it can feel like it's outside of the agenda and it's so important to spend a little bit of time at least on that trust building. So I know it can feel like it's outside of the agenda and it's like extracurricular activity, but it's like saying, in a marriage or a relationship, you know, I know we probably should talk more and check in with how each other, but I just I haven't got time and of course I know that's probably true a lot of the time. But you know, then you wonder why 10 years down the line, you're like we haven't really got anything to say to each other.

Speaker 1:

I mean, you know, it's like it's so interesting, isn't it, when you say I'm in a relationship with somebody and you, if you look at it and you go, actually what I'm actually in is a task sharing deal. That's right, you know, not relationship, exactly, yeah, and just before we get on to predictive trust, I'm just going to mention, off the back of this personal trust, communication. Now, again, we're not going to spend a lot of time on this. Boy, boy, we love to talk about communication, um, but, as you said right at the beginning, for of course, one of the reasons that trust can not be there or can disintegrate is because there's a lack of communication or the communication is not done in quite the right way. So there's a couple of things I'd say about that's a very nice way of putting it pen. Yes, I, I was quite diplomatic there.

Speaker 1:

But there's a couple of things I'll say about this that I'll pass to you, because I know you'll have some thoughts. But one thing is if there is a real lack of trust and maybe there's kind of silo dynamics and blame games, or maybe there is micromanagement going on, or one thing can be, sometimes it's useful to over communicate. Sometimes it's useful to over communicate sometimes. Sometimes you just want to kind of flood the zone, so to speak, with information so that people feel like there's no way anything's being kind of, kind of hidden from them. So that can be useful, not always, but sometimes that can be useful.

Speaker 1:

The second thing I would say on this is is this that I really thought about myself yesterday as well, is that we've got a little bit into the habit of hitting reply all on every single email we receive. Now I don't think it's common or usual just to reply to the sender, and I think it's quite an unconscious habit, but I do think it's also it can be a bit of a CYA, as we call it, a cover your ass email. So I would also, I would also check, and it's really interesting. I was talking to some clients yesterday and it really came up those emails that you receive that you know are not really about moving the project or relationship forward. They are about Accountability, covering your shop, yeah, yeah, and they really hit hard in terms of damaging trust. So I know, dynamics are not easy, projects are not easy.

Speaker 1:

I would just take a moment to think about the intentionality behind your communication and is it? Is it helping to build trust or is it? Is it damaged? Well, exactly, we're thinking about and and there's something really practical, there's something really practical to say about that that, with the cya, if you've got in russia, I know it's like, well, yeah, what was it?

Speaker 1:

It was, oh, I love that in, yeah, the spy world. What was it? Cover your back. I can't remember. Yeah, what was it? There was some different. It was London and Moscow, Describing London and Moscow rules. I can't remember they were funny though. Anyway, I can't remember they were funny though. Anyway, yeah, cover your arse, I don't know, that's very unhelpful. We'll come back to that.

Speaker 1:

But actually what it makes me think is that if it, certainly, if you're writing an email, you've got that in writing anyway. That, if so, just reply to the one person, don't copy in their boss. Or you know partners or clients, boss is boss, exactly, boss is boss is boss, to make sure that they know that they can see. Well, you know, they can now see that. I've asked you this three times and everyone's, I've put you, I've put you in this, I've put you on stage in the spotlight. The else address is coming off and you've got nothing underneath it. Here we are Exactly exactly all of your superiors. But you know, actually, you're right, you've.

Speaker 1:

You know if you've got it in writing, if, if it really gets to the point where you know that it's so uncooperative that you can't get your job done, you've got the, you've got the piece of evidence. You can. You know, further down the line, you can go and send it. So it's actually not. You know you're not sending a pigeon that you can't prove you sent. Do you know what I mean? Or? But it also what's more useful is the question what's more useful? And again, just as an aside, we also talk about self-management because, of course, sometimes other people do things or don't do things that mean that team trust can break down. We also do have to hold the mirror up to ourselves and, of course, if we are annoyed, emotionally flooded, we have to hold the mirror up to ourselves. And, of course, if we are annoyed, emotionally flooded, we have to think about our own self-management in terms of what we are then contributing to the reduction of trust in it, absolutely with the word.

Speaker 1:

The word I'd written down to come to in communication is is, uh, irritation. I hear the words irritation and, more, actually, frustration. The word I hear the most is frustration, really as a pseudonym for absolutely raging. I'm a bit frustrated, I'm like you're not, you're raging, aren't you? Absolutely raging? And when the emotions are high, the fingers are tapping. The fingers are tapping and the rational brain is going totally justified, totally justified, I'm going to annihilate them and I'm totally in the right, you know, and it all makes sense in the course of yourself, you know, because you are judge, jury and hangman. Oh God, you know, we've all been there. Yeah, so that all of those things and so much more, but all of those things come under the umbrella of personal trust.

Speaker 1:

So the second way to build and manage trust is predictive trust, and I do really like this. I mean, I do have quite a lot of blue and process in me, phil, don't I In that? Again, if we are working with somebody who is reliable and consistent, like we know that Bob has to deliver his numbers on a Friday, and every Friday at 9am I get an email from Bob with my numbers Great, we don't tend to stop and think, do you know? One of the reasons I really trust Bob is because when he says he's going to do something, he does it Like. We often don't really think about it, it's just inherent. Oh, me and Bob seem to have a very trustworthy and reliable relationship at work.

Speaker 1:

Of course we can build that if it's not there, both in terms of getting processes in place for the whole team, but also in terms of how we operate. So it goes without saying in terms of how our brains will sort of interpret things over time. If people have done what they said they will do when they will do it, we will inherently trust that the next time they say they're going to do it, they are going to do it Obviously. I mean, it's obvious, and yet we have to watch out that we don't just kind of accept. Well, in some areas of my work there is that kind of predictive trust and in others there isn't.

Speaker 1:

And that's the concrete world that never changes because there's no evolution, it's just, it's a static world. That's how we do things, right. Yeah, that's how we do things. That's right. Nothing can ever change. Yeah, yeah, that's how we do things. That's right. Nothing can ever change. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And I'm not a part of it, it just is. Yeah, it's just how it operate and what people see. That's one piece.

Speaker 1:

But of course the other one is if you stepped into a role and you sort of inherited I mean, now I think about this back in my corporate days you will have just inherited a pattern of doing this and you probably won't even use the word processes for how things happen. They just happen. Again, I know we're really busy. If you have time to kind of look at how processes are working, particularly within and amongst different teams, you might be surprised that some things might be missing. That would be really easy to put in place. Yeah, that would massively increase the trust, yeah, so, yeah, exactly, I mean, you know how about a predictive?

Speaker 1:

You know how about one that just bundles the whole thing up Christmas, easter and birthday rolled into one, which you know? How about a predictive? You know how about one that just bundles the whole thing up Christmas, easter and birthday rolled into one, which is you know that 20 minute Monday morning meeting that is for no business, it's for nothing else. Everybody always comes. That's absolutely predictive. It's absolutely vital that you're all there. All you do is talk about what's happening in people and people, with people and people's lives or how they're feeling. You're building relationship. It's predictive, it's reliable, everyone's there because you are committed to the team and each other. That's all it's about. I mean, you know it's just an example, but it becomes a process and we, you know we've talked a lot about task versus relationship.

Speaker 1:

If it's all about task and getting stuff done, even with the best will in the world, even with the best predictive, you know where you're churning out like a machine. You're so reliable, so you've got that high trust like a machine would. Even with that, at some point you're going to get some human feelings in there. And if you haven't got the relational bit, you know it's still risky. You need both. You totally need both. You absolutely need both, and we had some really nice discussions about this yesterday, because, of course, people do feel quite differently about these two different types of trust. You know, for some people the relational is all important. For other people, they don't feel they need as much of that. They need the predictive trust. So you think about a diverse group in a team. You have teams.

Speaker 1:

I would definitely look at what's not been consistent, what's not been reliable and what has or hasn't been the process there, because some of these things can be super easy to put in place. Such a good point, isn't it and actually that goes to both process and to trust is, when things go wrong, those are the portals of opportunity not to patch it up and go oh, the magic didn't work there. Anyway, la, la, la, carry on, on. We go, let's hope, you know, in sort of wartime forties. Oh, let's hope for better things next time. Yeah, exactly what's happened here. This is the moment for surgery. This is the symptom that's saying something needs to happen here.

Speaker 1:

Well, and and also, how often do I hear the people on the ground? I so often hear things like, well, if we just did, yeah, xyz, yeah, but that doesn't happen. It escalates all the way up the chain and I'm just like, well, why don't you just do that? Yeah, you've brought me something to, something that I think I can bridge into doing a few minutes as we finish on good comms, good communication Is those questions that get asked in irritation.

Speaker 1:

Why doesn't she just, why didn't he? Yeah, we hear those questions all the time from clients. Well, why didn't they? And actually, if you take the, if you take the tone out, that is a really good question to ask. Yeah, why, why didn't they get back to you on that email? Yes, what is the art? Get, get the answer to those questions that come up in anger that we're flinging out as really as criticism. They are really the question. You know that happens so much in coaching and therapy, where somebody asks a question in sort of irritation with a family member and you say let's answer that question. Yeah, let's really answer it. That is the question that's going to reveal something. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I read on linkedin the other day that, um, the ceo I think I can't remember the name of the company, unfortunately, but he has 40,000 employees and at least every two weeks ideally every week every single employee in the company has to send him five ideas for things that they could do slightly differently, and he reads at random. You know a huge amount, but he picks at random you know 300 or 100 a day or whatever it is and he reads them. How wonderful, isn't that wonderful? I know, I know, that is great, that's great communication. So let's talk about communication in relationship to building trust.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to say the word email. I mean, we've banged on about it so many times but you know, it's just such an issue like get off email, get off email, get off email. If you've got any issue with trust, email is not, it's just. You might as well have two paper cups and a piece of string, like it's. In fact, it's worse, it's not your medium of communication, it just isn't, it's just, it's the worst thing you can do. So pick up the phone Well, I suppose it depends, it depends, but we definitely overuse it. Yeah, but we definitely overuse it, yeah. Well, that's why I'm sort of, I'm sort of going blanket, because meaning, you know, I'm making a general, sweeping generalization, really, so that you stop and ask yourself hang on a minute before I yes, before I tip, tip, tip, tip and send, particularly at 10 o'clock at night stop.

Speaker 1:

When we have difficult feelings over somebody or something, most people unless you've got a pattern of aggression stepping in in that way, a lot of people will avoid the relevant person and talk to everybody else but that but that person. This is where we get silos, which is another issue of course with with trust is that you end up with small silo groups. We can end up avoiding stepping in to the conversation and really, for both communication and trust, you want to step in. You really want to pick up the phone, leave the voice note, ask the question, get active, and I love the phrase for this, that is, you're not afraid for the reason that you think you are, that you've got old patterns playing out, maybe fearful of confrontation, fearful of conflict, and you so. Therefore, you avoid. You are always pretty much. There may be exceptions, but you are usually going to be better off picking up the phone and having that conversation. So the first thing is to really build trust is don't move away when you open up those gaps. That's where great team collaboration and trust just falls through. So step in, pick up the phone, grab that video call. If you can't get them in the calendar, then simply leave them a whatsapp or a text or a voice note.

Speaker 1:

If we have a lot of clients who stay in difficulty or lack of trust or difficult relationships, firstly because they're staying on email and secondly, the the reason that comes is I just can't get a place in their diary, or I drop off their diary and actually find another way, always just find another way. Call them at a bit of a random time lunchtime, leave a voice note on your slack or teams or whatever you use, or whatsapp. Find a route through and make it much more spontaneous. You are much, much, much better off stepping forward and realizing you're not afraid for the reason you think you are. There's a pattern playing out. You don't have to go in with a fight, you just have to make contact. You just have to communicate.

Speaker 1:

I want to talk about very quickly the cycle of communication. So this is a real old school comms piece, but we often feel like we've said something and we're done, and that is not the cycle of communication. We've said something. Has it been understood? Has it been heard? Have they absorbed it? Could they repeat it back to us? Do they understand what it means to them? Are they going to do anything about it? Are we checking in? I mean, that's a very quick, pricey of the communication cycle.

Speaker 1:

But the assumption that because you've told somebody something, I mean this came up in a coaching session yesterday somebody trying to influence actually the head of a company, and you know who this person is. And it was so interesting because, as this person was describing the person they were trying to influence, I resonated with that person more than I resonated with the communication style of my client, so I could really understand immediately why her, why it was falling down, her ideas and her needs and her warnings were not being heard. How do they need to hear it? It's not really about what you want to say, it's how do they need to hear it. And if you are not thinking about that, you are going to fall off the communication cycle like no question, 100%. If you're saying to somebody that can't happen, this is the danger. You can't do that and you can feel that they just push that aside. You're dealing with somebody who needs the possibility and the positive.

Speaker 1:

And the analogy I gave is it's the difference between standing on the ground and saying to the astronaut in the rocket your rocket is going to crash and burn and it's never going to land on the moon and saying to them I'm going to sit next to you as the co-pilot and I'm going to help you get as far as we can. Very different, I don't know. You know there are things in the way here and I need you to know that. That means we might not make the moon. I'm going to help you get as far as we can. Or you know you're trying to get to Mars. I'm going to be with you and make sure we at least get to the moon. We are going to get somewhere, and that is a very different way to communicate to somebody.

Speaker 1:

Well, we slightly redraw the Lencioni model, don't we? Where he's got his pyramid with trust, healthy conflict, accountability, commitment and then the shared goals and results. Of course, we have communication just threading through the whole lot, communication and narrative threading through the whole thing, exactly. So the last thing to say on this is our core piece on communication is it's not just about what you say. In fact, quite often it's barely about what you say.

Speaker 1:

There's three core things that I think are important in communication. Four One is what we just said. How do they need to be communicated to If they're not hearing you stop banging your head against a brick wall and feeling frustrated because you're communicating in the clear way that you know and love. They are not receiving it, so how do they want to be communicated to? The second thing is less is more. Don't try and communicate 20 things. What's the one thing you want them to hear? And the third thing and the fourth thing are energy and intention. So if you're being solid and rational and reasonable and giving someone information and wondering why the team doesn't feel great or the trust isn't there, try dialing up your energy, because energy is the glue on which communication sticks. And secondly, what's the intention behind it? Because if the intention behind it is I am going to say this again and you are going to hear me then you're just caught in the same pattern. As much as you're communicating, you're still caught in the same dynamic. I would ask yourself exactly that Am I being intentional? And if you can ask yourself, will my response increase or decrease the level of trust in this relationship or team? So shift from they are driving me insane and I am irritated with them.

Speaker 1:

To play a different game. Set an energy level seven and put the word in your head Playful, excited, open, warm because they're expecting you to come with the. We don't trust each other game. Go with a different game. We talk about that a lot. Change the game. So you've got a lot of tools throughout that. We call that last one team quality boost. That, rather than wishing there was more playful energy or collaboration or enthusiasm in the team, why don't you put that into the team? So you've got lots and lots of tools throughout today. Trust, that's both vulnerable personal trust and predictive trust. And think about communication, communication, communication, communication. In fact, I'm going to offer you this last tip For the next week spend 80% of your time communicating a lot and brilliantly and positively to everybody in your team, and only 20% really thinking about task and see what happens by Friday afternoon. Good stuff, enjoy. We'll be back in a couple of weeks with our second episode on collaboration and being good to work with. So you can ask yourself in the meantime are you good to work with? Take care, and we will see you very, very soon, and we will see you very, very soon.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the 40 Human being Podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Do take on board some of the insights, tools and tips, because every time that you try something new to get back to choice, you are making a vote for the you that you want to become and I love that phrase, pen, I do too and please do share this episode with somebody that you know would really benefit from the lessons and learnings we've been chatting about today. And, of course, if you're interested in more from 4D Human being, do get in touch. We run workshops, trainings, online in-person conference events and keynotes. We've got the 4D on-demand platform for your whole organisation, and we do have a free essentials membership where anybody can sign up for absolutely free to access some of our insights, tools and tips. So do get in touch with us if you'd like to hear more. We cannot wait to hear from you and to carry on the conversation.