What Does Confidence Actually Look Like?

When we picture confidence, we often imagine the loudest person in the room — the person on stage, the leader with the answer, or the creative who seems completely sure of what they're doing.

But what if confidence is much less fixed than that?

In the first conversation of Season One, Fern Hughes is joined by Gavin Strange, Seb Alexander and Angela De Silva to explore confidence from the inside out — how it grows, disappears, changes with context and is shaped by the people and environments around us.

Together they explore creativity, work, imposter syndrome, anxiety, courage, mistakes, feedback, comparison and the confidence to try something before you know whether you'll be good at it.

In this conversation:

• Why confidence isn't binary
• Confidence vs comfort, courage and self-worth
• How repetition can build confidence
• Imposter syndrome and wondering how you ended up in the room
• The importance of supportive people and environments
• Making mistakes and “happy failing”
• Social media, comparison and perceived confidence
• Why confidence doesn't always have to look loud

Continue the Conversation

Where do you feel most confident — and what helps you feel that way?

Or complete the sentence:

“Confidence is…”

Continue the conversation, explore the episode and find the reflection questions and resources:

Continue the Conversation

Episode Partner

This episode of The Third Conversation is sponsored by MUTI Live — training for people and teams across the creative and live events industries, helping people build skills, confidence and sustainable careers.

Find out more about MUTI Live 

The Third Conversation — The conversations that change us rarely happen first.

Hosted by Fern Hughes
Produced by 3LB Consultancy

Transcript

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Speaker 0:00

We tend to think we know what confidence looks like. The person who walks into the room without hesitation, the one who speaks up, who takes the opportunity, stands on the stage, it looks like they know exactly what they're doing. But the more conversations I have, the more interested I am in what we can't see. Because someone can look incredibly confident and still be full of doubt. And sometimes the thing that looks like confidence might actually be practice, experience, courage, or simply being willing to have a go. So what does confidence actually look like when we stop judging it from the outside? For this conversation, I brought together Gavin Strange, Zeb Alexander, and Angela DeSilva. Three people with very different experiences of creativity, people, work, and putting themselves and other people out into the world. And I started with one question. What does confidence actually look like? This is a third conversation. Let's see where it takes us. This episode of the third conversation is proudly sponsored by Mooti Live. Moody Live helps people build the skills, confidence, and connections they need to grow their careers across the creative and live events industries through practical, industry-led training, skills boot camps, and apprenticeships. To find out more about their training and opportunities, visit moti.live. Now, back to the third conversation. So when people think about confidence, they often picture someone who's outgoing, successful, or comfortable standing on a stage. But is that really confidence? Or just what confidence looks like from the outside? So today we're joined by three people who spend their lives helping others create, lead, and grow. Between them, they've spoken on stages, led teams, coached leaders, and inspired thousands of people. But today's conversation isn't about appearing confident, it's about understanding what confidence actually looks and feels like. So round the table today we have Gavin Strange. He is a designer, filmmaker, author, and public speaker who has built a career around creativity, curiosity, and saying yes to new opportunities. Through his work at Ardman and his own creative projects, he's inspired thousands of people to embrace creativity and step outside of their comfort zones. Behind that creativity is an honest understanding of self-doubt, imposter syndrome, and what confidence really looks like in practice. So thank you for joining us, Gavin. Then we have Seb Alexander. He is a photographer, filmmaker, and marketing manager whose work is all about helping people and organisations tell their stories with authenticity. One of those words is a bit tricky. Spending much of his time behind the camera and working closely with people from all walks of life has given him an interesting perspective on confidence, both the confidence we project and the confidence we genuinely feel. So thank you for joining us, Seb. And last but not least, we've got Angela DeSilva. Angela is the founder of Your People Our Team, a HR consultancy that helps organizations build positive, inclusive workplaces where people can thrive. With over 15 years' experience in people and culture, she has supported leaders and teams through change, development and growth, giving her a unique perspective on how confidence is nurtured not just in individuals but in workplace cultures as well. So thank you for being here, Angela. You're welcome. Brilliant. So I'm going to stop talking now. So we're going to start just thinking about what confidence really looks like. So kind of going to start off with you, Gav, with this one. So people often see you as someone who's naturally confident and creative. Has confidence always felt that way on the inside, or has it been something you've had to build over time?

Speaker 4 3:46

That's so funny. Is that how you does that generally come across? That's really interesting.

Speaker 3:51

And I think Zeb would agree, having watched some of your talks sometimes.

Speaker 4 3:55

I think I think I was thinking about this on the train here. I think I kind of gravitated towards things that let me be confident, if that's if that makes sense, in the sense that I've never really liked team sports. I've never liked doing things where I could possibly be the weakest link in the chain. So I never gravitate towards football or rugby or anything like that. But skateboarding, because that's a purely solo experience. I can make my own mistakes in my own time, lots of them, but it's still social. I'm still with people, but it's like an individual growth thing. And then moving into creativity, I think I take a long time to get good at anything. And so that's why I do lots of stuff in my own time because I just want to be better and I want to just be able to sort of execute things that I want to do. And that I think then the confidence comes in just repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. But then I guess sort of my confidence on stage of like giving talks about this stuff is it's so joyous. I love creativity, I love doing what I do, and I feel incredibly fortunate to have made a career out of doing what I love that I can't not be happy and excited and positive about that. That's hopefully I got I guess kind of just come along as confidence, but I think it's also come from a place where taking ages to get good at something, I feel like I'm not one of these people that's naturally good at stuff, and we all know those people and we love them slash hate them. And that's not me. So when I do get to a place where I'm I guess not it's not confidence, it's it's comfort. I'm comfortable kind of trying something or doing something, and I've kind of engineered a situation where if it does go wrong, no one gets hurt, nothing terribly goes wrong. So I feel safer in that space. So it's almost like I've kind of engineered a framework for myself that lets me be as confident, but in on my terms, if that makes sense.

Speaker 5:45

Yeah, no, the complete sense, and I and I think it is that thing of you know you're pretty good at that thing, so you can confidently talk about it as well. But also, if you're still a bit wobbly about it, it doesn't matter that you're taking the time.

Speaker 4 6:00

Yeah, because a lot of my talks, half of it is kind of what I do professionally, sort of where I work at Ardman, and what you know, I've been there a long time, I've been there 18 years now, so I've been doing it a long time. But then the other half of the talk is stuff that I'm new to and things I've tried, but I guess it's still I don't know, I've kind of found a way to present it that even in my failings, even in the stuff not being good, like music, actually. I talk about making music, which I know I'm not good at, but I've kind of found a framework for me to show off what not even show off, just share, oh, but I love it, I know I'm not good at it, but I'm trying it anyway. And don't you want to do the same? It's almost like I want to project the confidence to go, don't rob yourself of any opportunity by not starting it because you haven't got the confidence to try. Like you're there's so many fun things that you could have a go at. You don't need to be good at and just go for it. So it's almost like I kind of projecting on other people what I'm trying to do to myself, I guess, trick myself into going just because otherwise I'll just won't try anything, I won't do anything.

Speaker 1 6:55

I think that's a really good point, though, in terms of being confident and wanting people to have the confidence to do something because you might not be confident initially, and I think that's just it about confidence, is that it's an ever-moving beast individually and collectively. You know, you might say to somebody, that person's confident, but actually, deep down you know that you've had a separate conversation with them that actually they're not confident or they don't believe they're confident, and I think people get a lot of that people mix up the idea of self-confidence and self-worth.

Speaker 4 7:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1 7:28

So for me, I've been thinking a lot about confidence um since since your invitation to today, and the idea that actually confidence is sometimes quite a superficial thing. It's almost like going on stage and bringing your confident self at that moment in time to something you are confident in talking about because you've worked because you've learned in that moment. Um, but actually, I think it's not binary. I think it's very hard to answer the question, are you confident with a yes or no response?

Speaker 4 7:55

That's a really nice way of looking at it, like that sliding scale. And I think as well, actually, to add to that point, you know, when I'm on stage now, if I'm talking about a project at Ardman, I'm very consciously only talking about the sections I'm comfortable and confident talking about. Like I'm not a camera operator, so I wouldn't speak for a director of photography, I wouldn't speak for a script writer, I can only speak about my experiences, which I am confident about, but then I want to sort of represent those other areas with enthusiasm and reverie, but not confidence in not saying, Well, I can do that, I can write that and shoot that. It's not, it's a collaborative thing, so it's it's a sliding scale, which then gives over to then the passion project style, which is purely explorative. Yeah, I it the confidence kind of just comes and goes, and that's fine. So it's like the separate versions of yourself, like you say, it's a sliding scale of what you're talking about at that moment, and also if you're on stage, you we've all been to talks, you you want to you want to be an engaging speaker person talking in a meeting or a stage, so then you bring a version of yourself that it's probably more confident than you actually would if someone takes you off stage in that moment and says that's how you're feeling and you stop crying.

Speaker 1 9:02

That's probably that's the that's the thing, isn't it? Is that it's also impacted by totally what's going on with you at that moment in time. You know, I've only started my business in the last sort of year, so it for me it's been like, oh my god, I've had to be, I've had to really dial up that confident person, that those confident bits of me that are completely not confident about anything that I'm doing. And someone said to me, So, what have been your best bits and what have been what have you learned? And I've learned, and I keep saying to them, I've learned everything. I've learned everything, I don't know anything. All the things, that's all I'm saying, and you know, and I'm kind of a quite a big believer in fake it till you make it in some respects. Um, but I think everybody, everybody to a certain extent is winging it. Yeah, and that's you know, yeah.

Speaker 3 9:50

Yeah, I had to give a talk recently and I I got the day the day wrong by a week.

Speaker 9:55

Um so I thought it was not.

Speaker 3 9:57

Well, hold on, I I I turned up, I got an email on the morning off being like, oh, you're all good for tonight, and I was like, oh my god, I thought that was next week. Um so I had not prepared it was a week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I had a whole week and I had really busy periods, so I was like, oh I don't have to prepare my slides yet. I'm gonna do that this weekend, it'll be really nice. Um so I quickly made some of the dumbest slides I've ever prepared um and wrote nothing and just turned up to to wing it. And how did that go? It went fine. Also I was the first of nine speakers. So I turned up really casual. Yeah. You know, I was like, okay, this is what's up. I I opened to the audience, I was like, I thought this was gonna be next week. I'm not prepared. These are my thoughts. Yeah, and uh at the beginning when I was being introduced, I was introduced incorrectly. And it, you know, it was only very minor, it was it was a minor thing, didn't even matter. They just said I was from Bath rather than Bristol. No offense to Bath, would I? I don't live there. But that small detail, I was like, am I do I remember how to speak now?

Speaker 4 10:55

Yeah, and then it was like this adverse because I'm like, oh, that went wrong.

Speaker 3 10:59

What else can go wrong? I mean it was fine, you know, it was quite nice. They got the audience to interact more than anyone else. I don't think any of them had ever taught a classroom of people. I think they'd only ever given uh stationary talks, you know what I mean? Um and it was a very uh restless audience.

Speaker 4 11:13

That's interesting. There, that's not so nice that instinct took over. It was like, oh, oh, okay, well, you're gonna naturally speak about just what you inherently know, which hopefully this is the thing, if you do give talks, it's nice to then just take a moment for yourself and go, Oh, I do know stuff. Stuff is known in my brain, and so the fact that that kind of kicked in. I mean it's tangents though.

Speaker 3 11:33

You know, I'm supposed to give a talk about tapes, they ended up talking about sci-fi novels from the 70s as a as a you know, this is why I make the work I make because I love these things, which you know I managed to find a way to wiggle it.

Speaker 11:45

Nice, wiggle it back in, but then you would have been more interesting, oh yeah, you know, so yeah, yeah, it's authentic. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 11:53

I don't think anyone knew what I was talking about.

Speaker 11:55

I I think I actually I mean that's also a good thing, right? They're like, he knows so much, yeah.

Speaker 3 12:00

I was like, oh, have any of you read this or this or this or heard of this? And like one person was like, Yeah, it's great. That one person in the room had a time with their lives. And then immediately afterwards came up to me and asked them. They they they got very close to me and they were like, Do you play Dungeons and Dragons?

Speaker 12:16

Do you?

Speaker 3 12:17

Uh not for a very long time, but it is fun.

Speaker 12:19

Yeah.

Speaker 3 12:21

I like the assumption.

Speaker 12:22

Yeah, yeah. You just got that vibe about it. Yeah, that makes sense. I it's matt, I and I guess, you know, with both of your kind of scenarios, and Gav, to an extent, you help other people develop their confidence and their worth. So working in HR is a massive field when they go, I can't do that, or this has happened, so therefore I'm completely incapable of everything. You know, how do you kind of bring that round?

Speaker 1 12:49

It's really difficult because humans are individuals, aren't they? And it just and I mean I've talked about this with an employment lawyer. We've said, you know, AI can do whatever we want it to do, except we will always exist as long as humans exist because there's just people are nuanced, and you can't really put people into boxes and make assumptions at all, and all assumptions are um I mean, I don't say the ass of you and me, I normally say um the mother of all f-ups. I've had people in my team where everybody else would assume that they were really confident and would walk up to anyone, and to some degree they would, but they've had periods in their life where they've just not been able to leave their house because they've been so anxious, and and then you know, so they they're seen as confident, they probably have low self-worth, they're dealing with anxiety, and that plays all sorts of um all sorts of factors into how you are perceived and how you perceive yourself. Um, I recently did a uh HR surgery, let's call it an HR surgery at one of the co-working spaces in Bristol. And I it was an open house, so anyone could come and just ask me anything. And I had really it was a great day, I really loved it. I was terrified before I went in because I thought, oh my god, what if someone asked me a question and I have no idea what to answer my question? And at the end of the day, I was absolutely buzzing because I just had such a kick from having just a complete variety of different questions. And one of the questions I got was from someone who said that they were working in a co-working space largely on their own with a couple of people from the same business, but most of the business was um remote workers. Um, and she'd been with she was in her early 20s and felt that she'd completely lost her confidence in her working life because she wasn't in an office where she was listening to people and learning things that were going on, and and so she didn't feel confident in her role, and she just wanted to know how she how she could address that. And and what's really interesting about that is I thought, gosh, I'm I'm I'm definitely not a counsellor. Like I I have done some counselling in the past, but I'm not a counsellor. And I said, look, I'm gonna I'm not gonna address this as a counsellor, I'm gonna address it strategically and talk about let's put a plan in place together about how I think you can in a in a remote scenario get some of that knowledge and make some of those meetings and meet with those people and and form those relationships with your colleagues to hopefully increase your confidence. But I just found that really interesting that the smallest thing can really impact someone's day-to-day confidence, which is why I think it's a sliding scale. Because if you're starting a new job, you haven't got the confidence, that can be made worse if six months down the line you still don't feel you're in confident in that role because you don't know what you think you need to know at that time. So so much of it is controlled by what's going on in your brain and what's going on in your life.

Speaker 4 15:42

You can't read like almost like the social cues of an environment, they can't they of like who am I learning from? How am I learning dynamics and whether I'm just doing something right or wrong, or yeah, that I've never thought about that. That remote work. Actually, that's great if everyone's got their tasks and they're cracking on and lovely, lovely. But in terms of someone new to the business or more junior position, or just any time, really, yeah, how do you how do you know? It's like a void, isn't it?

Speaker 1 16:05

Yeah, it's really interesting. And my my advice was well, I think go back to you. I'm assuming you had an induction, go back to the the initial induction that you had and call all of those people, every single one of those people, and go, right, this is what I've learned so far. It'd be really good to discuss what my gaps are and things like that. But just I think I could I could give that advice to her, but it would be different for every single person that goes and speaks to me and says I'm I'm not feeling confident, and I'd say why, and you could have a million reasons behind that.

Speaker 16:34

Millions. And again, it's that confidence in yourself, confidence in the task that you're doing. There's so like saying there's so many aspects to it. And what about you, Seb? Because obviously you interview people, you photograph people, you know, making them feel comfortable to encourage the confidence.

Speaker 3 16:51

Um, it is. I will say that it is it is twofold, um, which is that I think I think one could be, I don't know, I don't know what the right word is, maybe negative towards a lot of the work that I do. And I think this sometimes, that oh, my work is just vanity. That it's just making people look good. Um and I think that is a way to read it, but I actually think that there's something about being being the person who helps someone say, Oh my god, I look great. And then that can then expand into every other aspect of their life. So so much of what I do is I meet a stranger who I've never met before. And it's as shady as it sounds, usually on a street corner, uh, you know, behind a train station. Yeah. It's a frequent one. Um, and then we go for a walk around and I just take pictures of them and I say, Oh, could you sit there or could you try this? Yeah.

Speaker 17:43

They put all their trust in you. They yeah, and it's terrifying.

unknown 17:47

Yeah.

Speaker 3 17:47

I mean, and you know, I've done I've done it for God, how old am I? I've done it for 11 years, I've done it for my whole hour life. I started doing it. The thing I was thinking when you asked me about confidence is I was like, ah. I had historically described myself as a deeply anxious and not very confident person. And then I had the curse placed upon me that what I really wanted to be was a portrait. Um and and so every time, especially for the first, I don't know, five years, every single time I was about to meet a person to do the thing, I was so anxious. And so, like, okay, I need to center myself, I need to I need to give the impression that I know what I'm doing and that you know this person's trust is well placed. And it took me a long time. I I controversially am not a huge believer in the fake it till you make it thing.

Speaker 2 18:37

Okay.

Speaker 3 18:38

I I think that you make it and then you are it. Like I think you know, I think from the from the beginning of me doing it, I was making it. Yeah, exactly. You're doing the beginning.

Speaker 2 18:47

Yeah.

Speaker 3 18:47

Um so I I I think that the idea of, you know, I just did it and did it and did it, and I I I was actually doing the maths this week. I've taken over a hundred thousand portraits in the last ten years, which is like quite a lot.

Speaker 2 18:59

Yeah.

Speaker 3 19:00

Um and and if you told me the things I was doing now when I was just starting out, you're like, absolutely not. I remember having a panic attack outside a gig once, because I was supposed to go and photograph with the band, who I really liked. And then I I ended up not doing it, I ended up just sending them a message being like, my train's delayed or something, just a blatant lie. I was outside of the venue, I was out of the curb having a panic attack. Because I was like, oh, I don't know how to talk to them. They're like cool. I was like 22 or something, so you know, different different perspective on life now. And then, you know, two weeks ago uh I had less than a minute to photograph uh Zach Polansky, you know, head of the Green Box. Um and I just had to walk up to him and be like, hey, I have to do this now. Uh you good?

Speaker 2 19:43

Yeah.

Speaker 3 19:44

We'll make it look good. And then he was like, Yeah, cool. And it was really easy and it's come out really nice.

Speaker 19:49

Whereas ten years ago.

Speaker 3 19:50

Ten years ago, I'd be like sweating.

Speaker 19:52

Yeah.

Speaker 3 19:53

And you know, I think for me, actually, I as much as this is a as much as my job is about building other people's confidence, I actually think it's built mine more than you.

Speaker 4 20:01

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, how do you how do you I am always fascinated in that about how to make someone relaxed when you're taking their portrait? Because it is a strange relationship, isn't it? And even the most comfortable of people, I guess a politician would be better than most, but it is a strange sort of like a dance that you don't have to do. Like how have you have you sort of changed anything in your head as to how you get them to relax, or is it just repetition? You've done it over and over and you're quick to put them at ease.

Speaker 3 20:27

Part of it is just repetition that if you do something however many times you learn things to say. Um the other part of it is like, you know, it's it is a conversation, it is a collaboration. Like, even if they are paying me, you know, to do something exactly as they want, it is very much still a collaboration because you can't remove one side of it. You know, there has to be the person taking a photo, there has to be the person in the photo.

Speaker 20:52

That's actually really interesting because my background, I've done a lot of photography, and I still get anxious before I do it, you know. You do weddings and you think if I mess that up, I've messed up that. I love weddings. Uh yeah, I love them, but at the same time, you know, there's that panic. What if I drop my camera? What if this happens? What if that happens? You know, and it is that confidence, and you know, I'm a lot older than you as well, so you know, I've been doing it for a long time, and it still gets you because you just think it's a lot of responsibility. But I like what you've said about that collaboration. I'd never thought of it like that before.

Speaker 3 21:32

A constant, constant issue, issue for me is I can't make work on my own. That is that is this particular craft that I have. I can make music by myself, it's loads of fun, but I don't think I'm amazing. And I can make, you know, other courts. I can take pictures of you know fruit that I have in my bowl at home or whatever. And like it's never gonna it does it never hits the same thing as when I get to make something with someone.

Speaker 2 21:55

Yeah.

Speaker 3 21:56

So as someone who spends a lot of time on my own, I love to sit. And read and not talk to people. I actually realised I think I am an extrovert. I just, you know, I was quite a nervous one. And that doing this career has made me realise, oh, I can't do that. And even now I do get quite anxious sometimes, but yeah.

Speaker 4 22:15

But it's kind of that sliding scale thing as well. Like say, like, oh, I'm actually a really quiet extrovert. Yeah, I think I'm a bit of an introverted extrovert. And it's a sliding scale depending on the time.

Speaker 22:24

But then we've had conversations like that before about how we both sometimes just need to walk away from a scenario and just be. But at the same time, I am a very chatty, you know, come across as very confident, you know, that kind of but then that could be the teacher facilitator that I've been over the last 20 years. You know, it it's it's interesting that you know that mask that we could, but an interesting thing is we've all kind of touched on that imposter syndrome. You know, it's not necessarily an obvious imposter syndrome, but there sometimes is that level. And I've noticed with some of the coaching that I do with people, it's that that saying, imposter syndrome, it's always become trendy.

Speaker 4 23:11

Yeah, it's I don't think people often think about what it actually means.

Speaker 23:15

Um, do you see it a lot with people? Yes, yeah.

Speaker 4 23:19

Do people name it to people specifically? Oh, I feel like I'm an imposter.

Speaker 1 23:22

Lots of people name it. And I have been to a talk where someone said, no, it's ridiculous, it doesn't exist, it's a thing, and we've got to stop leaning into it, we've just got to decide it's not a thing, which I found quite quite an interesting thing. Yeah, I like that. Stop, just stop, just stop, just stop, it's such a parent thing, just stop, just stop being a thing. Come on, come on. Um, but yeah, I I think I've really imposter syndrome, it's just that little voice in your head that kind of says, Yeah, it's almost like the the devil and the angel, but it's not, it's this third person, it's the the you know the doubt part of you that kind of goes, Oh my god, I just I can't believe I'm quite here. I mean, I have in it building the business, I have in that process, I've almost had out-of-body experiences where I'm talking to a client on the phone, trying to sell something and trying to go, look, I can really help you here and here's how. And I'll be having that conversation and kind of looking down, going, Who is this person who's talking right now? Yeah. Um, and so you could argue that that was some kind of impulse, that was my impulsive syndrome, going, Hey on a minute, you what are you doing? You can't do that because you can't do this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 24:27

So Yeah, I had that today actually, but in a in a group of um, I was in an animation unit working on a project um with Wallace and Gromit, like which is just a dream. And I'm I'm there and we're reviewing the sets that the art team has built, and the animator is there, and we're talking about the set, we're also the performance that we're gonna get from the characters, and I'm there to review how it looks, to think about the framing, to think about everything. It's kind of both the lighting, it's the set, it's the performance, it's all of it. And just I'm talking, I'm the whole my job and in that moment is could you talk to the crew about it? But at the same time, I felt like my self floated in a in kind of a not an imposter syndrome because I'm more just a I can't believe this is happening, yeah, but also I just want to be good, I really want to be good. So it's like it starts out positive and excited, and then there's a bit of you goes, Yeah, but what if you're talking rubbish? And then you're aware of your own motor functions of your mouth, and like, oh what blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah, and then you but you just have to kind of almost you do almost have to go quite in your own brain and then stop now carry on because you have often a job to do, so that must be interesting in in your line of work that you're helping people, but it is within the framework of but your employee to do a role, and so you have i you have to give them the tools to continue to do that role, whether that's sort of you know financially or sometimes legally, you must have an interesting thing where you you have these rules where it's like, well, there is a sort of a sequence of events that you have to follow to to be a good employee, yeah.

Speaker 1 25:59

There is that, and actually that's why I love HL because it's kind of all encompassing, it covers kind of recruitment and it covers um yeah, uh attraction, recruitment, training, you know, making you know, engagement, well-being, now AI. So it's kind of all encompassing, and and when you're dealing with humans, that is already nuanced. So um, and that's why I kind I do kind of love it.

Speaker 26:23

But that I mean, is there a difference between like confidence and courage? Is it? I mean, yeah, yeah. I so this is actually I mean this has been messing with my brain in that kind of like is there, isn't there, is it, you know.

Speaker 3 26:37

I I think that actually brings me to the an actual answer that I didn't give to you when you said, is there a thing that you get people to do to you know, um, and I tell them to be a character.

Speaker 2 26:47

Okay, that's interesting.

Speaker 3 26:48

Okay, the alpha you're wearing with where we are. Who are they? Like, what are they up to? Um and I think I think allowing someone to not be themselves for a brief second, I think actually lets them have the courage, I guess, to then try something they wouldn't have done otherwise.

Speaker 4 27:05

Oh, that's really nice, yeah. Because in that moment, someone's pointing a camera at you, even the most famous of people, I guess, who are really used to it, but it's just it's still a majority. You've almost like gamified it of like, okay, forget everything. Yeah, who's age of performance?

Speaker 3 27:19

That's great. Like, it really works, and some people tell me the craziest things, yeah, you know, depending on who they are. And I I did that for the first time with a guy who I wrote essays about when I was a uni. And then, you know, there was this full circle moment, I got to work with him. Yeah, and I was terrified. I was like, oh, he's gonna not like anything I do because I'm you know, he to be fair, in his defence, he I was very young at the time, it took a real chance. You know, it worked out again, you know, over the years, of course. Um but I was terrified of the only thing that I was like, oh yeah, I should do this was very silly uh bragging rights to my friends who I went to uni with. You know, being able to then text my friend Dave afterwards, being like, Oh, by the way, I worked with this guy today. That I think gave me the courage. Yes. And he was very nervous in front of the camera.

unknown 28:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3 28:08

It's the character.

Speaker 4 28:08

Oh, that's great.

Speaker 3 28:09

I'm gonna I'm gonna still really works. It really works. It's really annoying. And if you can really quickly come up with examples for people, if they can't come up with one, that's helpful. That's where the you know, a little bit of improv is helpful. Yeah, you know, if you can pull a reference of, oh, you're wearing this crazy thing that looks like that actor in this show, or you know, um, it's almost helpful.

Speaker 1 28:28

I think what's really interesting about that is that you're talking about the kind of almost courage you give people that you're working with, and you kind of give them the confidence. I think there's a lot to be said when you've got people around you that almost prop you up. Um, there is a lot to be said for having that network of individuals that and really in an ideal world it should be based on all your colleagues, all your line manager, your working life, your children, you know, everybody should have your back. And having that can give you a lot of confidence, knowing that it's actually okay if I fail, because I've got all these people around me that will help me and get me through it. Um, and that's what you give public to the people that you're working with.

Speaker 3 29:13

You know, not to not to to eat what you do now, but like it's about playfulness.

Speaker 1 29:17

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 29:18

And you know, yeah, it's just you need to be permission to have subjective to what you're doing, isn't it? I think I'd be I would be uh I guess it's a field I've not trained in, but you know, lucky enough to be in a very playful job where it it people don't get hurt and and and it's all about entertaining people, so that there should be safety in that. But of course, there are still budgets and schedules attached, people are still spending hard-earned money of clients to pay you to do a job, so there's a responsibility, both kind of morally, ethically, legally, you know, you're contracted to do it, so there's there's still that worry of wanting to provide, but yeah, then I think I have to be r remind myself well, I feel like it comes quite naturally, but isn't this great? Isn't this playful? And if I just try and focus on the fun side of it, and actually, a a side note to the what you were saying there in talks, I've often said there's a difference between confidence and arrogance. Because if I'm lucky enough to be given a talk and I'm there on stage and I'm saying all this silly stuff with these silly visuals, I think it's really easy for me to stand on a stage and go, hey guys, just do whatever you like. That they may see me as well, he's alright, he's just a straight white male with inbuilt confidence, and and that's that, and that can feel disconnected. But and people then think, Yeah, but I I want to talk about my work because ultimately, I guess, in the creative field, you've got to share what you do, you know. To get more work to do, you have to show it off. It's quite a simple transaction. But people who maybe aren't confident think, Well, I can't talk about what I do because that will appear arrogant. But confidence and arrogance are two very different. It's in the execution, isn't it?

Speaker 1 30:46

And I also think that confidence and arrogance are judged differently depending on where you're from in the world.

Speaker 4 30:51

Yes, that's a really good point.

Speaker 1 30:53

I think in the States, you know, they they are very much kind of will tell you they're very good at saying, Well, this is what I do, this is what I did, this is what I achieved, this is why I did it. Whereas we would sometimes see that in in Great Britain. It's very no, I'm very arrogant. He was very arrogant. He talked a lot about himself and what he's achieved, and you're like, Well, but he achieved it, you know. So it's not a good idea.

Speaker 4 31:17

That's interesting from your HR perspective of sort of like, yeah, just the the location specific versus you've got to deal with that as well in the workplace.

Speaker 1 31:26

Well, yeah, the kind of and again that's because people are humans and they're all different. You've got the whole intersectionality of people and the idea that people aren't just one thing, they aren't just their race or just their sexuality, or why does that even matter? Or do you know what I mean? It's all of that. Um, and I think actually, I do remember what I was going to say earlier around because I'm dealing with all those things, and I do have you've always got kind of the law in the back of your head in terms of protecting the individuals, and the law exists to protect individuals and protect businesses and make sure that they can harmoniously work together. Really, the law only exists because employees aren't doing what they need to do in the first place, really. Um, but it it's so nuanced that I tend to lean into let's see if we can resolve this before it needs to get to a formal process. You know, when I've received in the past a grievance, let's call it a grievance, but an email from an employee that's kind of 400 words and I've received it at two o'clock in the morning, and I go in the next day and I'm thinking, this person is seriously pissed off, and I'm what I'm not going to do is send them an invite to an im an invite to a grievance meeting because that's rubbish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you know, then it suddenly becomes really formal and really unnecessarily formal quickly. Whereas, you know, I would phone them up and go, talk to me. Yeah. Just talk to me. And if you still need to do that meeting, we'll get there, fine, but just talk to me. And I've been known to just pick up the phone and say, Talk to me, and then go, let's meet for a coffee. And we'll meet for a coffee, whether virtually or otherwise. And they just pour their heart out, they just want to be heard.

Speaker 2 32:53

Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 32:53

Like most people just want to be heard and listened to. Um, and then after they've done all that, I'll go, okay, well, you've got choices. I can we can either take this as a formal grievance or you can trust that I'll go away and look into it. And if you're still not satisfied with how I've dealt with it, it's still not working, then you're not prevented from putting in a formal process. But I think that there is a lot of the world of HR that is changing in terms of mediation before formal. Yeah. Let's explore different ways that we can do this and manage this as humans.

Speaker 33:25

And that supports the confidence level because so many people I know have ended up in, you know, a formality when it didn't need to be, and then they you know, their confidence is hit for applying for the next job or doing something else within that company because they're just like, oh well, this is gonna happen anyway, or I'm not gonna progress because of this, or you know, and it's just so important that actually that communication is there.

Speaker 4 33:52

Yeah, it is about being heard, isn't it? Like fundamentally, whether it's loudly or quietly, if you feel heard in any scenario, you the confidence builds of oh, because I could carry on the conversation. Whether it's I'm big I'm got the skills to do this big job or just have that conversation with my line manager that's difficult.

Speaker 1 34:10

If you're heard and feel like it's reciprocal, confidence grows, or in personal relationships with friends or partners, you know, being being heard and having that moment matters.

Speaker 34:23

What about like with age? Do you feel like confidence changes with age? If we think about young people and children, you know, obviously we know children that are very shy, but they're quite confident in other ways, you know. So, do you think that kind of changes with age? Yeah, 100% for better or worse.

Speaker 3 34:41

But it's a it's a it's a what's it called? It's a bell curve, yeah. It's the opposite one, an inverse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, less and less, and then I think I'm slowly.

Speaker 34:52

Interestingly, um a conversation I had this morning. Um they were saying that apparently you always shed a skin every seven years, and I've heard something with children that age seven is a moment when stuff happens, um, and it's when the the child in you starts to diminish slightly, and it's age seven.

Speaker 4 35:16

Oh, that's actually a bit sad.

Speaker 35:18

I know it is sad. It is. Oh no, but it's that's it. You know, I'm not explaining it technically, but it's that kind of that your your eyes are opened a little bit more, you understand things, you've got you get that more of a self-identity and your confidence changes. And I've noticed that with my own children, you know, that kind of the reception, they don't give a shit, you know, they're running around, and just gradually it's that awareness, yeah, doesn't it?

Speaker 4 35:48

Of themselves and the world and their place in it, and yeah, yeah, all of that. Yeah, it well it I guess it also makes sense seven, fourteen.

Speaker 35:55

Yeah, yeah, you know, 21.

Speaker 4 35:56

21, 28.

Speaker 35:57

Yeah, like oh they are all markers, I remember like what wasn't 42. That's a that's a seven, right?

Speaker 3 36:04

Prime number. I I don't remember. Like you're all talking about skateboarding, that's I promise there's a point to this. Does it need to be? I really wanted to skateboard. I never I was never allowed one. And then then as I you know, from teens to early 20s, I was like, I can't do that, I'll break something.

Speaker 2 36:21

Yeah, and now I'm like, I think I could have it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 36:25

Even though theoretically, if I actually hurt myself right now, it's way more than that. If you break your wrist, then because also, you know, how I mean, I could yeah, how do I do my job if I do that? That's the fit. But then I see my wife's a roll skater.

Speaker 2 36:35

Like, she skates across down.

Speaker 3 36:37

Yeah, yeah, you can do that. And I'm like, oh, wouldn't it be nice if I also went along with that? And then I was like, oh yeah, but she did get a spiral fracture. I'm like, okay, like if it's a constant sort of battle.

Speaker 36:49

But then we when our eldest started skateboarding, um, my husband got skateboard and I got roller skates, and I was like, is this a midlife crisis? Or is it because we want to show him that we're not scared? I was petrified, I'm still am. But it's that okay, I can't show you that I'm scared to fall off because I want you to give it a go. Yeah, I mean, now they know that I'm petrified and I'm useless. But initially, when I just wanted them to make that jump and get on it and give it a go, you know, do we then I don't I don't know.

Speaker 4 37:28

I mean to me, I didn't start skateboarding until I was 19. Oh, yeah, okay. I sort of um I did what every teenager should do. Uh did boring Latin dancing from age nine to nineteen, excellent, quit, started skateboarding. So I did the path of the really good as well, won't it?

Speaker 37:44

I mean, 10 years.

Speaker 4 37:46

British novels champion at one point, which which is which is bonking. I can't even really remember it because you're a teenager and you just kind of alright, I'll do it. The shame it was before the sanctions, not anybody, no photos, nothing.

Speaker 1 37:59

Um, are you sure?

Speaker 4 38:01

There is a few, there's a few photos and I've got curtains because it's the 90s.

Speaker 1 38:04

Well, my son's got curtains.

Speaker 4 38:06

That's right, it's got back, isn't it? But yeah, and I think then the conf, but I was still, I'd started my first job. I'd already had a job at age 90, and I do definitely remember that did hold me back actually because I wouldn't throw myself at it and I'll be skating with all these kids, these teenagers who just don't obviously they sprake their wrists, they're like stoked because I'll be off school. Whereas I I I loved doing what I was doing, so yeah, it's interesting that I started that too late, but then it was nice, it did inspire or just I think as well then for me, the world of skateboarding, like the creative world, so like skate films, you know, became a filmmaker because people would just make skate films, they'd just get the cheapest camera, shoot stuff, yeah, and learn to edit. And so I that was always like that confidence of just quite DIY culture was kind of where my confidence came from. If I they're trying it, why can't I? Yeah, exactly. Why can't I try it?

Speaker 38:53

Yeah, what about social media and how that affects your confidence?

Speaker 1 38:58

I'm so glad social media did not exist when I was younger. Oh my god, for sure. Honestly, I'm so happy that there's no I have some evidence of photos of times I do not want to remember from when I was a youth. I would not have wanted that all over social media, yeah.

Speaker 39:13

Do you think it affects people's confidence?

Speaker 4 39:16

Social media, yeah, because it's perceived confidence, isn't it? It's become this new abstraction, I think. Whereas we're talking about being heard. Now in theory, you can be heard by anyone on the planet, but do you foster a real connection? No. Is it sort of it's kind of parasocial, it's kind of one way because you're looking at a black mirror? It's what it's like the the I don't think we're well, not for a very long time. There's not been enough time to do research, is there? When the actual sort of I don't know, what the the what's happening in your brain in in this world of confidence? So yeah, it's it's weird because we all see people, we're all full of friends, they're gonna God they're doing well, they're probably having a terrible time, or we just don't like it.

Speaker 1 39:58

And that's just it. They say that um what is it that there's a there's uh saying around something that like uh comparison is the thief of joy, yeah, or something like that. Oh really, you know, like if you compare yourself to other people, you're just still from your own joy, and so I think social media just perpetuates that.

Speaker 4 40:20

I think we're on it feels like we're on a bit of a turn, I think. Yeah, I think people are just kind of it's been around long enough now that there's a sort of like we know it's pretty much evil. We know we know that the algorithm is manipulated to ultimately make Silicon Valley investors tons of money in there. It's about engagement, it's not about enrichment for anyone. So there's a there's almost like a we get it now, you know. Yeah, and obviously now with the with the ban for teenagers, that's that's really interesting, and very happy that that's that's happened. It sucked for those people who have just got on it and now it's taken away from them. That must be difficult as a teenager, but hopefully there's some course correction in sort of like or each at least pausing, going, we don't quite know what it does to you, your brain, your confidence, your connections. It's it's mad, yeah.

Speaker 1 41:05

I think the addictive side of it's scared, yeah.

Speaker 3 41:08

Yeah, I um just so I never had a TikTok account. I had avoided it until like um three months ago.

Speaker 41:14

I stuck I opened one last week, not putting anything on it.

Speaker 3 41:17

I just I haven't posted anything, but I got it because for one of one of the other clients I have and helping them make some social media stuff. And I was like, they're in a weird niche. I should look at what's going on on in their space. Yeah, and TikTok is their target platform. And I, with a fresh account, the stuff it was showing horrible. I was like, this is actually insane. Yeah, it is. And then I jump back to you know the Instagram account I've had for god knows how long now. It's curated, and it's curated, and I just put stuff up there for fun, and I don't follow or engage with anything I don't like. If someone posts something once that I think is annoying, I removed them.

Speaker 4 41:53

Yeah, pro tip on Instagram, just long hold a video, long press hold it, and say not interested in this, and it will curate your algorithm quite quickly. But I agree, because I keep thinking of teenagers or kids, it's horrendous, it's like the most rage baity, clickbaity, sexual violence, you know what I mean. So quick, like there's the steps there, it scares the life out of me. Yeah, and I didn't know until a friend says, just train your algorithm, but I I don't want to do that.

Speaker 1 42:20

I think they've done a new thing on Instagram where you can reset your entire yeah, I've seen that.

Speaker 4 42:24

Yeah, you can you can tag, um you can essentially see what the algorithm is tagging it and just delete and blocks of so that's a little gain, isn't it? Oh a very tiny gain, tiny, tiny win.

Speaker 3 42:36

But you know, my whole career has come through Instagram, as it yeah, and like originally, yeah, and then it's become word of mouth, blah blah blah.

Speaker 4 42:42

But like how do you deal with comparison on that with uh when it when you like look at the people there for photographing, look at the followers, look at the XYZ? Are you quite good at detaching?

Speaker 3 42:52

Yeah, but nowadays I didn't used to be, but now I do realize that I do the same thing as everyone else, which is that I just post the cool shit I do, yeah, like and you know, there's this sort of inverse relationship where actually I don't like having my personal life on Instagram, but anytime I share more with myself, the engagement goes up, yeah, and incredible now.

Speaker 43:11

That was it. Someone said to me the other day, they were like, Oh, you need to post more pictures of yourself. I'm like, I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to post my face everywhere. So I did one with my new headshots, and that got more views than anything else. Because it's the human and it's the idea that personal brand is way more important than and I'm in branding a lot of it, but and I understand all that.

Speaker 2 43:31

I just don't want my face, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 43:34

But there is a real push at the moment, I think, for authenticity. There's a push back because of what you're saying. We know a lot more and that whole Instagram versus reality. People don't want to see like some weird, perfect special type, they want to see the real, and with the rise of AI, even more. Short moments, yeah. Yeah, they want to see people not doing well or just being themselves and being completely authentic and real. I see a lot more client boots like that nowadays.

Speaker 3 43:59

Yeah, just But like yeah, just can you make it like a bit less perfect?

unknown 44:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3 44:03

Can you like shoot a bit monkey? Can you? Yeah, yeah. Just have that as an old point and shoot camera.

Speaker 4 44:08

Nice.

Speaker 3 44:09

Because you know, you it's hard to fake that in many ways. Yeah, that's interesting. Which you know, I think it's interesting because it clearly shows that people are relating better to stuff that feels more real. And then I'm sure at some point it'll swing half the other way, and then it'll swing back.

Speaker 2 44:21

Yeah.

Speaker 4 44:21

It's been really I've been starting a thing with a friend just for the last month. Okay. He's a graphic designer and an art director, and we're doing this thing together, this shared love of pinball of all things. We've both fallen into it. It's very visual medium. It's very t-shirts, yeah. Yeah, it's this thing. We started an account from Fresh, and so because we're both designers, we started making stuff. So we made it almost as a test of like, let's post and make something every day. And it's really it's been really fascinating just from the point of view of kind of what the algorithm's looking for, because we have posted consistently every day, and it's just you know, the sort of percentage rise of followers because it wants authenticity and it wants it wants you to feed the beast every day. It's sort of enlightening slash depressing, you know. We've both got our own personal accounts that we've had for decades now, and you know, they grow very, very slowly. Whereas if you sort of play the game, um, but it's quite nice because we're playing it on our terms and we we want to make stuff anyway, so it's kind of like an agreement where where well we're gonna make creative stuff and that's lovely, but if it's also then sad thinking, if you just wanted if you don't have the means to sort of post every day, make every day, that was a bit my arm. But luckily, because we're kind of making graphics or doing stuff, it's achievable, but it wasn't ironic. It's it's really intense because we had a flurry of time, and then now we're like, oh, what are we gonna post today? We've kind of used all the good stuff. Take another picture, um, yeah. But it's it's it's interesting that that's the way it works. But again, because people know that now and you take it or leave it.

Speaker 45:50

Just going back to confidence a minute, like what do you think steals confidence? People.

Speaker 4 45:58

People, yeah, other people, so yeah, it is, isn't it?

Speaker 1 46:01

It's like the energy drain or comparing yourself to others, yeah, because you perceive them to be a certain way, yeah. It's not always true.

Speaker 46:09

Yeah, and I say they could have 50,000 followers if we go back to the social media aspects, and you could have a hundred and be doing just as well.

Speaker 3 46:17

Or just be much happier, yeah.

Speaker 46:19

Yeah.

Speaker 3 46:20

You know, I I remember one time I turned up to a job, I forgot to put any SD cards in my camera. Oh god. Other than that, yeah, it's just it's it's I've it's happened twice in my whole career.

Speaker 46:29

Yeah.

Speaker 3 46:29

And thankfully one time I was close enough that I could walk 10 minutes back to my house and grab one. The other time I was I live here, I was in London. Oh, oh god, find a local shop, go but they're not gonna be able to get it. That was that was the that was the but this is also the timer I had like 70 quid in my bank account. Yeah. Like until I got paid for the bank. Unless they got really expensive as well. Okay, nowadays they're more expensive, yeah. Even then it was like I don't know, like 30 quid for the one I needed. Which that was, you know, that's like what 40% of what my bank account did at all the time. And it just throws you as well.

Speaker 47:00

Oh no, okay.

Speaker 3 47:01

It's like, oh what if I now take terrible pictures and you know, yeah, because you're in that zone and you're in that. Well, one one time someone sent me a message back saying, I actually really don't like the pictures you took of me. It's happened once in my whole career.

Speaker 4 47:14

Okay, I guess I mean, is that subjective?

Speaker 3 47:16

Do you think? Was that just like it's I think it was that they were just not particularly happy with how they looked that day, with their outfit choice or their hair or something. But that threw me for like six months.

Speaker 1 47:25

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's fine. Don't ask for a refund. I kind of wish they I think it would help confidence in schools if they taught children how to a make mistakes confidently, you know. I think in um I worked with um the improv theatre for all in Bristol, and we ran a session around um feedback, giving feedback and managing having difficult conversations. Um, and they talked about the idea of happy failing. Yeah, and I really like that idea that you know teaching people how to fail happily and learn from it, and learn from it, because actually that's how you do learn is by making mistakes, but it's almost people have to get to work before you have to teach them that they should receive feedback this way and they should be comfortable receiving feedback, they should be comfortable giving feedback and and being okay with making mistakes.

Speaker 48:20

And this is something that I feel very strongly about with children, in like my children, but also when I was teaching as an art teacher, you would get half of the class that go, I can't draw, yeah, you know, and they draw something and say it was rubbish, right? It's not about that, it's not whether it looks exactly the same, it's not about that, it's about just being creative and having a go. And actually, you might not be amazing at drawing, but you might be the next filmmaker, or you might be the next, you know, and it it's looking and twisting things to be the positive and not that, you know. And what one of your stickers I've got on my laptop, I think it's what is it make it perfect? Don't make it perfect, make it now make it now. It it's not about that perfection, it's you know, we all strive for perfection in one way or another. But you you know, if you procrastinate to make it just right, you're never gonna get there.

Speaker 4 49:14

No, you need to learn from that and move forward, especially in the world, like we're teaching people ultimately, if it's students about sort of entering the workplace, I guess, because that is the reality of what we need to do, like that it that iterativeness and that about working with the people, and then owning up when you go, I'm really sorry, I've made a massive mistake, you know. That that's that, and that is scary. That that would knock you confidence, but hopefully, then you're working with someone who's who is good at confidence and can recognise okay, this person's going to take a really big hit to the confidence. How do I relay that information back? Like it's such a such a dance that people have to do, isn't it? And that must be interesting in HR as well as to it's not only the individual that sometimes you're dealing with, it's their network. And sometimes those people might be great managers, sometimes they might not be great managers.

Speaker 1 50:00

And people are always moving and changing, and when you've been in the business, in a business for 18 years, like you have, you that one person will go through a multitude of potentially different circumstances, different roles themselves, different line managers, and any or different life circumstances that will impact their confidence and maybe their self-worth in that period of time.

Speaker 50:21

Yeah. First of all, I want to say thank you for today, and I'm gonna go round and just ask you a question. Is you're gonna get the same question? No, and whoever goes last, you've got to think about it longer. So I'll go for Angela first. No one was sat here hoping I was gonna be last.

Speaker 1 50:42

Confidence is complete the sentence an ever-moving beast that needs to be tickled and cuddled and punched. Nice. Okay, yeah.

Speaker 50:54

Punch it in the face. Nice, gav. Do you want me to go to Seb?

Speaker 3 51:00

I I'm ready. I can go. Oh, great, yeah, please. Um, I was I was gonna go for a similar idea. But I was gonna say that it's more like a garden.

Speaker 4 51:07

Gav, confidence is confidence is I want to be succinct. It's this thing now. Um confidence is always evolving.

Speaker 51:20

Nice, nice, that's nice, yeah. And I don't have an answer. Oh confidence is something I would like to develop in myself. Oh, that's nice. I think what I'm taking from this conversation is that confidence isn't something we either have or we don't. It moves, it changes depending on the room we're in, the thing we're trying to do, the people around us, and sometimes simply how we're feeling that day. Maybe confidence isn't always walking into something knowing that you can do it. But maybe sometimes it's being willing to try before you know, to practice, to get something wrong, to find the places where you feel comfortable enough to stretch yourself a little further. And perhaps we should be a little bit more careful about assuming we know how confident somebody feels just because of how confident they look. Thank you to Gavin, Seb and Angela for being part of this conversation. And thank you for listening. If it's left you thinking about confidence differently, continue the conversation with someone else. Ask them when do you feel most confident and what helps you feel that way? This is a third conversation. The conversation is it changes, it really happened first. This episode was supported by Moody Live. Thank you to them for helping make this conversation possible.