The Living Zen Podcast
Dharma talks exploring Zen practice, awakening, and how to bring clarity and compassion into daily life.
The Living Zen Podcast
Who’s Understanding is it?
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Good morning. Nice to be home. Had a trip for a few days through a British Columbia to see a friend. Beautiful, beautiful part of the world. It's on the coast a little north of Vancouver. Very remarkable where the town is there on the coastline. Beautiful town. And just kind of looking around, and then you see the I see the woodland, you know, a lot of trees obviously and water, and you see the woodland going back into the into hills. And I asked uh I asked my friend, how how far is that go before you reach any like a city or a big town or something? He said, uh about 600 miles. So it's amazing that this to me that that's so, you know. 600 miles of uh of forest. And up there they're they're dealing with the um uh emergent threat of uh wildfires too. It's not quite on the fortunately on the scale of uh what's been happening in in California, but there they're under the same, that's starting to really grow as a grow as a risk. Anyway, as I say, nice to nice to return home. I'm gonna bring up a a Koan from the from the book of equanimity. So we have these uh several Koan collections in this in the way that the Koan practice is taken in this lineage. So typically it begins in Khan study here as the two there are 200 miscellaneous Koans, which was a system that Koryo Roshi, Mizumi Roshi's uh lay rinzai teacher used. So in the Rinzai tradition, there are several versions of those our first early collection. It varies somewhat between lineages, and then after that, the examination of uh exploration moves on to the the Moomon con the 48 koans therein, and then from there on to the Blue Cliff Record and uh Book of Equanimity come next. And it goes on from there, but these two collections of Blue Cliff Record and Book of Equanimity is often um held Blue Cliff, particularly held up as the the maybe the primary collection of the most volunteered collection, perhaps a blue cliff, 100 cases. And the book of equanimity is almost like a like almost like siblings, you know. The book of equanimity is used, was used typically more in the Soto school and um the Blue Cliff record in the Rinzai school, and and some of the cases uh overlap. There's I don't know, 20 or so cases overlap, and these are all collected around the same time in uh China. It's that interest in development where um what was like in a lot of ancient cultures, more of a uh an oral tradition, perhaps, to begin, because the Chinese are very diligent about writing things down and keeping records of those early cases between of the the old masters were soon collected and and written down and became uh a standard to to study and a standard uh to to reach and to match. Of course, you don't have to do con study to practice zen. In this lineage, it's not it's not required. And um there are strengths and shadows to any method that is brought in as a any practice. Even in the early creation of the Blue Cliff record, it became uh it was a it was a big hit. It went viral in China, in the Zen communities, and then was like held up as like this is this is it, you know, and it becomes gets almost like a uh a biblical quality to the book, very, very highly uh prized and regarded, so much so that the six I perhaps a successor of a compiler or maybe a maybe set first generation or or second generation down from the compiling of a Blue Cliff record, the m the the teacher uh burned the um the the wood blocks for making it, for printing it. So already you saw that the book had become an impediment towards inquiry, that it missed the point that people were quoting these cases around and taking that on as then. So it's like burned uh the printing blocks, wood blocks. Makes me think of Jitsuro Roshiro's woodcuts, those beautiful shirts that he's done, you know, that old tradition of woodcuts and and printing that's been with us. So there's a strength and uh a shadow to these uh compilations. What's most important, of course, is the the koan of one's own experience, the koans of one of one's own life as it's arranged, as it's perceived and experienced. That is the important koan. If case koans are helpful as they are for many people in pointing to and illumining that in bringing doubt to a head, and uh then they're useful, then that study is useful. If it's not, then it's not. There are other approaches. Koans are sometimes, and Master Hakwin, a great exemplar of Koan study, one of the greats in the Rinzai school, said Koans are like uh using a wedge to knock out a wedge. You know, so using um using something, you're bringing bringing something in, bringing something else in in order to remove something else. Using a block to knock out a block. And this case is uh case uh find it. Sorry. Yep, case 80. Uh Ryuge passes the chin rest. Preface a great sound is rarely heard, a great vessel matures slowly. In the hurly burly of a hundred chatterings, he plays the fool, patiently letting time pass for thousands of years. Tell me what kind of person is this? In the main case, attention, Ryuge asked Shuibi, what is the meaning of the ancestors coming from the west? Shuibi said, Go and get the chin rest for me. Ryuge brought the chin rest for Shuibi and Shuibi then treated him to a blow. Ryuge remarked, Hit me if you wish, but there's still no meaning to the ancestors coming from the west. Later Ryuge asked Rinzai, What's the meaning of the ancestors coming from the West? Rinzai said, Go get the cushion for me. Ryuge brought the cushion to Rinzai, and Rinzai treated him to a blow. Ryugei remarked, Hit me if you wish, but there's still no meaning to the ancestors coming from the West. Later, still, when Ryugei was living in a temple, a monk said, Osho, in former times you asked Shuibi and Rinzai about the meaning of the coming of the ancestor. Did they both clarify it or not? Ryugei replied, They clarified it all right, but there's still no meaning to the ancestors coming from the West. So this Koan is one of those that's also shared with the uh Blue Cliff Record, but there's a different emphasis and perhaps a different appreciation between the two versions. The Blue Cliff Record part omits the latter part of the Koan, where uh the student goes and asks Ryuge about what happened. So that latter part is omitted. So in the blue cliff, we would have Ryuge visiting Shwebi and uh Great Master Rinzai and asking the same question and receiving the same, pretty much the same response, and then himself answering in the same way. So if we try and illuminate a little, it's with these with these cases, um of course it's well it's essential perhaps to allow oneself to or at least to try to shift and to put yourself in the perspective of the protagonists, to take on the scene, like looking at a script for a play, certain to you know, as an actor would uh read apart and see what who who is this character, what are they? You know, cons are more difficult when we just approach these things with our own um more of a defined perspective of how, okay, how do I understand this? How do I see what's going on? And often that I is the block. That's a problem. Rather than asking how do I understand this, it's better to ask how does um Ryuge understand this? How does Shuibi understand this? How does Rinzai understand this? If we find the inquiry uh that understands, really understands that these characters in the page in this one here are all one together and not separate, and not at uh fundamentally or intrinsically not separate, then that is a good standpoint. Same human life. A thousand years ago. Circumstances a little different, but mostly the same. Two arms, two legs, cushions and mats in this case, we don't use chin rests, right? That's uh historically, perhaps it's still in some places, training places in Japan, I'm not sure if they if they still exist. Perhaps they do. Yeah, she said they they do. So a chin rest is for sitting late and sitting through the night. Um when you've fallen asleep, you could get the stand with a chin rest on and then put it in front of your legs there and then rest your chin, and that way you could continue sitting with your head supported. Um, I don't think we'd sell many of those in the store. Although, although it could be like an interesting, you know, an artifact. Like this one belonged to so-and-so, you know, he could probably talk it up a little bit, but uh that that that's what a chin rest was, so or still is. So Zen school, of course, you know, often uh strongly emphasizes long sitting or a lot of Zazen. Here, you know, there's a fair amount of Zazen compared to what, you know, but compared to some places are strict, uh, some places have a fuller schedule, you know, some places have a lighter schedule. The important thing is how we uh how we realize the schedule that we're we're doing, whether it's like Hosan or the the middle of session, you know, how we are um matching the forms, how we are matching the present experience. It's easy to fall into vaunting more extreme methods of practice or harder practice. That's something that become sometimes we become captivated with. Yeah, I I certainly felt that way for you know a long period of time. Um it's years since I, many years since I personally sat all night, but I I felt that that was something to do at one point. I remember sitting with my friend Varon. Uh we sat all night here one time, and I was pretty sure because it was good timing, because Roshi was gonna go that next day, he was gonna go down to the desert to his parents for some reason. There was some project down there he was gonna do. So he was only gonna be around in the morning and then he was gonna leave. And we were sitting all and we were gonna sit all night, and part of it was thinking should be a little bit of a lighter day the next day, and we did. We said I remember sitting all night, and then you know, somebody comes out and does a wake-up bell, and you're like, Yes, you know, done it, and then service happens and all that, and then I remember going to work practice, and Roshi had like cancelled, he wasn't gonna go down, and instead we worked on that the rock wall where we parked the cars, like that wall, just did that all day, and it's like one of the most horrible days of my life. And then it's like doing that after not sleeping at all, like the night before, you know. It's kind of funny now, but I remember it wasn't at the it wasn't at the time. So, you know, sometimes we have we can have these ideas that or are ascribe to more stringent or a tougher practice, and with all these things, there's a strength and a shadow to that. There's certainly a great strength to long sitting and and being able to go beyond our uh comfort zone. You know, but if again, if we hold that up and say this is the right way of doing things, whenever we fall into that identity with a way, this is now, this is Zen, that's not Zen, Soto, Rinzai, Koan, Chikantasa, Brett, what what if ever we we find a nest in there and gain an identity from it, then um then it's of no use. Then it's of no use. So Shribe uh Ryuge comes to Shribe's place and asks what was uh the stock question of the day. You know, it's like an approaching question or a testing question. This comes up a lot in the old record and asking uh what is the meaning of the ancestors coming from the west? So this is referring to the founder in China, Bodhidharma. You know, Buddhism had been existent in China before Bodhidharma's appearance, but he's credited in the record of really bringing the Zen flavor from India to China. The Zen flavor, the little difference between, of course, the different um, there are differences between the various lineages and traditions of Buddhism. So you're talking about Bodhidharma here coming from the West India to the east. What was the meaning? So that's a stock question. You could ask, um then what is the meaning of Zen? That could have been the question. Or um what is the meaning of this life? What is the meaning of the Dharma? This is like a direct question to to the teacher to bring up bring up a question to start uh perhaps to start a dialogue, and the record's really replete with a lot of instances of this happening, and one had to have it seems, you know, a certain amount of uh courage to to do that. Because often in these cases, as back in these times, um the responses were often uh physical. Physical. You know, I like the way it says here um Shwebi treated him to a blow. Like it's like you it's not like that's a nice treat. You know, that's treated him to a blow. Like the okay, so what is the meaning coming from the West? But so we could dress this up as a uh it can be delivered as a question in order to um raise um some depth in the conversation. But really, for for all of us that uh encounter and then um delve into spiritual inquiry or zen inquiry, that question is is really the the motivator, however that's articulated and understood in one's mind or heart. What is the meaning? What is the meaning? We don't have use have to take on the or the ancestor coming from the West. I remember uh Tenshin Rochi's successor, um Kaigen Rochi, he was telling me in a conversation that he had said to somebody, look, I want you to take all of these questions that you have and distill them down into one question. Distill all these questions down into one question and ask that question. So it can function in that way too. We might have all kinds of inquiry or questions about this and that, some things that seem unclear. But where possible, coming up against the uh if there if there is, perhaps it's not for you, but if there is one real point of angst, one real question, one one thing of doubt, one thing of what that is, then it um it can it really helps to clarify that. Clarify the question. It's hard to clarify the answer when you don't know what the question is. Much more important is this is like really bring that doubt up. That's how Koan functions too, is to give doubt uh a direction. It's a container for inquiry where you can bring that down and distill it into that into one question. Maybe it's hard to articulate that question, but even physically or in the body, you lean into in Zarzen, into that question, into inquiry. Sometimes it functions as just what is this? What is this? And so that Zazen can be a body of that inquiry. Because with this long sitting, sometimes we can fall into an autopilot mode, you know, like a cruise control, right? Where you're used to sitting, you know, you come into the same seat, the bell's the same, uh, you know, the rooms are the same, characters change a little bit, but for the most part it's the same. And we can fall into a place where you just like it's like the day job. You kind of show up to Tarzen in that way, where you just sit. It's not particularly difficult, you go past the initial difficulties, but it's not particularly rewarding, like the initial easier insights have come. So then it's just a sit-in, sometimes that is uh just somewhat of a coasting. You know, okay, this is fine, but it's not really perhaps making most efficient use of the urgent time that we do have. You know, if that if that is if that is noticed in one in in one's practice of CSAN, then really you use that noticing as a chance to reboot and just re enter into that mind body uh inquiry into this. Mystery into this experience. Look for meaning. Or you can look for meaning. But rather looking at what this self is. If you don't really look, then that question, or then it's not really brought to the front. You know, this is rather a passive acceptance of environment inside and out, but no real energy brought to dissolving any barriers, the ways that we hold ourselves separate. So I encourage, you know, I encourage everyone in that sense to really make use of the time that we do sit. We don't have to sit eight, ten hours a day with chin rests. I mean, and what in in some ways, you know, you could look at it and you say, well, if you reach the point of falling asleep to the point where you know you've got to rest your head on and snooze, is that better than using the time, a shorter amount of time for Zazen and being all in with attention, and then when you're tired, go to bed. Which is better, which is worse. So Ryuge asks that question, brings it up to see what to test out the teacher, and the teacher says, get me the chin rest. And in response, treats him to a blow, or hits him with a chin rest. One would hope or imagine it was just a bit of a rap, you know, rather than like smashing him over the head with it or something. Well, no, because he answers, so he can't have hit him that hard. Treated him to a blow. Ryuge remarked, hit me if you wish, but there's still no meaning to the ancestors coming from the West. So this is where we really have to, or the invitation is to step into uh Ryuge's skin. He asks the question, what is the meaning? What is the meaning? And goes and asks an accomplished Zen master, a teacher, what is the meaning? And the teacher hits him. And he says, Yeah, okay, you've hit me. But there's no meaning. That asks each one of us, what is he bringing up? What is being raised here? You know, do we go see a teacher with how often do we see somebody where we have a question, a deep question, and you go and you ask a question, and then you receive an answer, and you're like, oh, I'm done. Thanks. Zen doesn't function in that way. Practice doesn't function in that way. Whereas, you know, here's you know, we throw up softballs and like questions, and oh, here's your answer. Oh, great, got that down now. This is dealing with questions that are a lifetime of study for a human being, and again, the record is replete with this is not an unusual answer to be struck, but why struck? Why struck? Of course, we bring up the first ancestor here, and it says that when Bodhidharma talked of Zen or made a definition for Zen, he said Zen is an intimate teaching, not dependent on words and letters, pointing directly at the mind, realizing awaken, realizing Buddha. Not dependent on words and letters. What is the meaning? He doesn't answer with words. Sometimes words are used, sometimes they're appropriate. But Shreebi's device is to first not even just hit him with something, but have him go get it and bring it to him first. How would that make us feel, you know? Of course, this kind of thing you can't get away with in 21st century China or 21st century California. You know, this is inviting some litigation. We don't do it that way anymore. But he has him go get that and there's a strike. What it wine? You know, I come up against these things, like beginning practice and reading of these, like, what is all this hitting and shouting? What is contained in that? What is the meaning in that? What is Shweebi's effort in expressing the Dhamma, expressing his teaching? What is his effort? What is he pointing at with the strike of a chin rest? And is that device. Go on.
SPEAKER_03So he gets struck while it gives an answer. For me, that points to you know, clarify, say more of your question. Your question isn't getting to the nub, the watteau of the con. So for me, that that's one A. And why is it that Ryu Dragon was in there? Um didn't answer with a shout or a smack himself. So I mean, and then that would just go back and forth. But it to me that just it's the teacher is asking for clarification. I mean, that's just myself putting myself in that colon.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um need to say more. There's there's something uh lacking in the response, but that's why they're written that way.
SPEAKER_00Anyone else?
SPEAKER_04Oh brings up an intimate experience. And that's the answer. That I mean, that's his answer too. The questioner. What's happening? How do you experience and then there's that.
SPEAKER_00Then there's that.
SPEAKER_04What meaning do you make encouragement?
SPEAKER_00Encouragement, what? Encouragement, figure it out. That's uh anyone else?
SPEAKER_02This seems kind of uh I guess stubborn, or the the fact that he's asking a question that he already has an answer to himself. Yeah, which is there is no meaning, so I'm surely the teacher knew that that it was not a sincere question.
SPEAKER_05Maybe, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I know he asks this asks it again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I remember going in to see Tenshin Roshi with working on cons and I had a response ready for a con. And I thought, so this, and I'm gonna say this. Then he's 90% chance he's gonna say that. And then I'm gonna say this. Boom. And then I had the trap set. And I remember I want to say which comment of an answer it was, but I remember I went in and I said something, and Roshi said no. And that was like, okay. So yeah, dangerous to go in with your preconceived kind of your plan, so perhaps that's something. And and anyone else wanna throw a hat in the ring? Okay, but this is you know, it's interesting to see. So it's like, and this is the nature of comment too. It's like rather looking for just the one answer that might satisfy this, it's like looking at it, like what is what does that mean? What is that meaning? What is being pointed out, what is trying to be raised up, what is the teacher trying to trying to do? What is this, yeah, what is the student's position? You map these things out, and it's like you can really help develop one's expression and understanding and moving between these positions. He's not satisfied or you're gay, whether he pre-plotted or not. Um he says, hit me if you like, there's no meaning. And off he goes to see Master Rinzai. But you know, it's interesting that with this question, if his uh motivation is only to um, you know, protect his own kind of understanding or show that, there's a long journey to go on. I don't know how far Master Insight's place was from Master Shuibe's, but I would imagine it involved quite a journey. So there's something driving Ryugei's inquiry. Like, what is this meaning? What is the meaning that can't be satisfied by seeing Master Shwebe? Like, hit me all you want. That's great, thanks for that. That doesn't reach it, there's no meaning. And off he goes to see Master Rinzai, same thing. Master Rinzai in um indulgent mood here for by his usual if you read the cases of Master Rinzai. Get me the cushion. I mean, that's like light by his get me the cushion filled with rocks. That might have been more, you know, more canotypical or something. But that's the same question. You know, that that's this is our focus with a case. That question, what is the meaning? Same thing. Get me the cushion. You must think, oh here we go, right? Same thing. Now this is where in uh in the other version in the blue cliff it stops at that point. But we go on after Master Rinzai strikes him and he says the same thing that he said to Master Shribe, hit me if you wish, there's still no meaning in the ancestors coming from the west. Later, when Ryuge was living at a temple, a monk asked. As a teacher, I think it's like at a temple where he went on. I think it's the successor of uh Tozan. Osho, in former times, you asked Shuibe and Rinzai about the meaning of the coming of the ancestor. Did they both clarify it or not? Ryugei replied, they clarified it alright. They clarified it. They weren't remiss. They didn't answer wrongly. So why this why this comment, why this turnaround? All these years later, inquiring into meaning. Yeah, that's the work of each one of us, it really is in Zen. You know, we may look for, we can look for meaning in strange places, or well, not in strange places, but in places where that might provide uh easier answers. You know, why is this like this? Well, because this happened, that happened, and this happened, and now so now this has happened, and now I'm like this. And fill in the meaning based on events, circumstances, conditioned, patterns, etc. etc., to explain meaning. But that is not Ryugei's uh lifetime of practice. His lifetime of practice is to look into this meaning that cannot be satisfied with words, cushions, chin rests, explanations, books, whatever else, it has to come from his own realization and awakening. No matter, see a hundred teachers in China, backwards and forwards in time, there's no way to get that from another. Nobody can unlock that. Whatever one's own inquiry is has to be satisfied by each one of us. And we don't settle for meanings that can be explained with shallow answers. This because of this, this explains this. But rather assuaging or reaching that deeper inquiry, that that deeper me what is the meaning? What is this? Is this really one's home? Is this awakening? Is this a Buddha's realization? Or is there something still to be made clear? Is there something more to do? Is there something to be clarified? Ryuge, one way or another, no matter how much traveling or zarzeni, he for him, clarifies this. And realizes the mind ground that Shuibe and Rinzai realized. They clarified it all right. They weren't imposters, they did what they could. They answered this way. But there's still no meaning to the ancestors coming from the West. Isn't that an intriguing way to wrap Ryuge's response? There's still no meaning. But there is no meaning that needs meaning, or there's no meaning that feels like lack, there's no meaning that it shows up as confusion, there's no meaning that needs an answer. But this is a little bit, well, this is certainly different, I still say. There's no meaning. And the monks that hear this story ask him, you know, does that what does that do? Does that bring up doubt for the questioner of Ryuge? What is the difference with his realization of no meaning in coming from the West as a mature practitioner to the person who was hit with the chin rest? What is the difference? That's our practice. Looking into this meaning or no meaning. Go back again to Bodhidharma of the first ancestor. When the Emperor Wu asked him, what is the highest meaning of the holy truths? And he said, vast emptiness, no holiness. Susane, no meaning. Not something that can be given one to another. Not a thing. You know, often we have something that we rely on. Some structure, some construction, somewhere to put the feet, somewhere to stand, some kind of nest, some identity, something. A little something to avoid the dark, right? Of no meaning. But this arrival at no meaning, Ryugei raises up, that Rinzai and Shweebi also express. The no meaning of Master Bodhidharma. That's this life. That's the same experience. What is the meaning? There's a difference between looking outside for meaning or trying to find something. A big difference between that journey of that looking that that inquiry that works through the meanings that know but don't reach it, the meanings that don't satisfy. Looking or looking through, throwing out, throwing out, throwing out, throwing out, throwing out, throwing out, throwing out. Meaning, meaning, meaning, meaning, meaning. Delving all ever more intimately into this great meaning. You know, and I'd be remiss to say something extra there. It's just for e it's for each person. That's where these co-hands function as wedges to drive out wedges. If there's this arouses some doubt, or what is then that meaning? It helps to point it back to asking one's own body and one's own heart and mind. What is the meaning? What is no meaning?
SPEAKER_05Okay. Yeah, please.
SPEAKER_04I just was gonna say it helps me to ask the question, what's the activity of making meaning? What am I doing when I'm making meaning? And that puts me in that place of being able to swim through the whole mud of meaning or no meaning. Um I'm doing something outside myself. Meaning, we make meaning. We we manufacture something. And that's what comes before that for me.
SPEAKER_00So Yeah, no, I appreciate that. You know, we bring the mean in. It's a part look.
SPEAKER_04You I bring. That's really not I can say.
SPEAKER_00Bring your mean in.
SPEAKER_04Bring your mean in.
SPEAKER_00Does anyone like to share something? Bring any, you know, comments or anything you'd like to say on this case? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna say the phrase that comes to mind is when I always heard drilled in things to not not knowing is most infinite. So I sat with that a lot just and the my mind that wants to know why did that person do that? Why why am I acting this way? And it's and it's cause for my own internal inquiry. And what comes to mind okay is uh story that was shared with me that I guess back in the old days of GCLA and everyone had a colon, they would sit in line with their little paper, and then the person would be behind, like peering over, oh what are they working on? Um and um this my own experience with working with colons is that. It's not one answer. It's just there's many different ways. There's 360 and I would get one and have to give one answer. Go back out and have to give another answer. So there's just different ways to keep shifting the perspective of looking at what I needed to see. Yeah, to not know is that's tricky. That's a tricky one.
SPEAKER_00Anyone else?
SPEAKER_01I think about um like sometimes like yeah, I come across that wanting to know. And sometimes I push that far farther myself and say, well, how if I'm like really want to know, how could I do that? Yeah. And what's interesting is sometimes there are subjects where I'll get to a point where I realize I actually don't want to know. That's like uh, well, like sometimes when I like I'll sometimes challenge my friends to that. Like someone is like assuming something about another person or an event, I'll go like, well, why don't like if you really want to know, look into it, or like ask this person. And sometimes I'll get the response like, no, I'm not gonna do that. Like I don't, and that's sort of like I don't really want to know, because I'm I don't know, maybe scared I'll find what I'm or I'm I'll find something that I would rather not find.
SPEAKER_00And we often have the or we have a deep impulse to find a way. So we may approach with a way of uh discerning knowledge and trying to add to that, and we bring that to Zezen to practice knowing, like an inquiry of knowing to know stuff. And then we run into the block with that, and then we we can flip that, and then uh not knowing becomes something. So then we're doing not knowing, and then not knowing becomes a thing, which is about as useless a thing as you can have, is the thing of not knowing. You know, this time for knowing, there's things that we need to know or can know, but it's this identity or relying on one way that's it that's an issue, and that can be the way of knowing, the way of not knowing. We fall into an identity or a way in which we describe or experience life and practice that way, that's a problem. Because there's no way. And that's you know, but we can certainly practice over and over this faith in the seat of our own inquiry, using knowing, not knowing, using all of these things, but not looking for it somewhere else, not looking for it in the mouth of another or in the experience of another, but trusting this, trusting in this life, trusting in this inquiry. But it really requires that shift that goes beyond that ever-comping focus on a narrow identified sense of me that puts others on the outside and things in their place. That's what needs to be seen through. That's what needs to be dissolved. So wherever you look, it's you. It's this one. Okay, well thank you for thank you for listening and thank you for taking care of the place while I was away, and uh we'll finish.