Terry Walton and Jamey Prickett discuss grief

Two seasoned pastors discuss walking through times of grief with their members and friends and how that journey looks for them. Hear an inspirational perspective from 2 pastors with years of experience walking with families during loss.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Yes, you are way ahead of schedule in my book.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Okay, folks, we are ready on your queue whenever you want to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Well, good morning, friends. Uh, this is Terry Walton, and welcome to Sunday mornings with me. I am humbly honored that you took some time out of your Sunday morning to share with me in some conversation about reflections on faith, life, and family. That's the subtitle of the book, Monday Memo, that's just been published, available on Amazon, and a lot of what we do in this Sunday morning segment is a reflection of various themes that are addressed throughout that book. This morning I have as my guest a dear, dear friend, uh the Reverend Jamie Prickett. Jamie is the senior pastor at Gainesville First United Methodist Church. And I've invited Jamie in today to have a conversation with me about the topic of grief and loss. I know that in this community, uh in this summertime, there has been some significant loss, not only at Gainesville First United Methodist Church, but in this Gainesville Hall County community as well. Jamie, welcome this morning.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Jamie serves where I served once. It was a privilege to serve as the pastor at Gainesville First for 12 years. I've been gone 10 years, and uh it's taken Jamie came on behind me as associate, and now he's the senior pastor, and it's taken him about 10 years to clean up the mess that I left him. And I Jamie, I do appreciate your ministry. Well, we have we're having a great time, so thank you. Um let's talk a little bit about this thing called grief and loss that we as clergy, regardless of our denominational affiliation, see in sometimes what I would call a way too regular basis. Tell me a little bit, Jamie, what you have found most helpful when you're walking alongside someone uh who is grieving. How how have you uh managed that and what have you found helpful?

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Well, Terry, I I think for me is simply presence, is showing up without an agenda. I think it's very important for all of us. Um, you know, I used to feel like I had to show up with the right verse or, you know, ready to to fix whatever we were walking into. But what I've learned is that presence does more work than words these days.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Yeah, I I I echo that. Uh I remember I don't know where I first heard it, probably in seminary. The ministry of presence has kind of been a phrase that has stuck with me, and it's probably not as hard for you as it is for me, but sometimes I, you know, silence is difficult. You want to throw something in it, and yet sometimes the human touch, the human hug, or just sitting in the room with people um makes a bigger difference than we can see or know in that moment. So I would echo that with you. Um as you go through this sort of thing with members of the congregation or your involvement in the community, which I know is great here in Gainesville, uh, what are the questions you find that seem to come to the surface on a more regular basis as people move through their grief and their loss?

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Well, you know, I think the the questions are honest and deep. I'm reminded of I think it was John 11 when Jesus um has this encounter with Mary and Martha at the death of their brother Lazarus. And um, and I think it was Martha who approached Jesus and said, Um, if you would have been here, if only. And so I think it's those if only questions that rattle through our minds, right? It's if only I had done this, or if only I had been there, or if only I had made this decision. And so I think those are some of the questions that people wrestle with when it comes to grief. And um, did I do enough? Or um, and of course the big one is why? Why, you know, why, why now, and why this person, and and why did this happen to me?

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Yeah, yeah. What's the youngest? Do you recall the youngest uh person you've ever had to, shall we say, perform a memorial service for and with? It was a toddler. Yeah. It was a toddler, so that was hard. Yeah. I remember um I'm guessing I remember his face, and I'm guessing he was probably three or four. And uh watching those parents walking with them, this was early in my ministry, and then they wanted me to sing at the graveside somewhere over the rainbow, and I'm gonna tell you right now, uh that resonates in my memory as one of the toughest swallowing hard kind of things I ever did. Um how have you worked with managing, I guess that's the word, or balancing your grief, your your sense of love, empathy, sympathy, caring for people, um, you're hurting and you're trying to help them with their hurt. How have you found uh that balance in your own life?

SPEAKER_01 6:46

That's a great question. I think, you know, particularly as ministers, because you know, folks, I think sometimes feel like we just put up a wall and we go and we we kind of remove ourselves, but but if you've invested in these people and you've invested in their families and you invested in in in the relationship, then then there's you carry that grief as well, right? So um, so I think uh a couple of things. First of all, I I take long walks and um and and I enjoy the I I think also being in ministry, you're around people all the time, and you know, as much as I want to be an extrovert, I'm technically not. And so for me, it's it's stepping away and finding moments of silence for myself so I can process and I can heal. And it's always good to have that circle of friends around you that um that you can process things with. Because I think sometimes, I think sometimes our job as ministers is to stand between a grieving person and everyone else's good intentions. Well said. And I think and sometimes that's a challenge, but I think that's part of our calling in those places of grief.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

I I'm reminded um when I was serving at Cannon United Methodist Church in Snellville, and we had a young boy, his name was Maddie, he died of cancer, untimely death. And I remember walking with that relatively newly churched family. They uh had come to the church, best I recall, just a few months. Uh the tragic diagnosis kind of brought them that way, and they uh certainly had been involved in the church and had the church praying, and Maddie died. And uh I can remember doing that service, that memorial service, that happened to be an 11 o'clock in the morning service. I recall vividly, and I probably had been at the church since about nine that morning. By 12:30, I was spent. The service was over with, and it was when I began to learn that the energy level, the spiritual energy, you really cannot put it in an eight to five kind of context. And I remember saying to the staff, I'm out of here. I'm spent. I may have just been here four hours, but I'm I'm gone. Um and the reality of standing in that gap with that family and having to address honestly their questions. One of the things that was hard for me early on was to say, I don't know. I don't know. Uh I lost a brother when he was um 16 months old. He was buried the day before my sixth birthday. So it's the first time I ever saw my dad cry. And I go back to that a lot watching my mom and dad in that moment as a six-year-old, you know, not understanding and yet seeing things and trying to put it all together, and then watching how God used that in my dad's ministry across the years. Um, it's it's a stand in the gap that drains the energy that requires honesty. And honesty is not always easy for us preachers. I'll speak for me, because we're supposed to know what God would say or do or think. Uh how have you wrestled with that that's imposed on you from someone? Please tell me the why.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah, that's that's a tough question because I think you're right. I think the ex the the the expectation is that we would show up with these answers, right? So I think part of part of it is I go back to what I said originally about our role, and our role is is to be a presence. It was an author generations ago who said not only just a presence, but a non-anxious presence. Yeah. And so I think a couple of things. You you can't you can't argue someone out of grief. Um and and and so I I I want to remind people that that you know Jesus was from the cross saying, My God, my God, why why have you forsaken me? And that's not a that's not a a a crisis in faith footnote to scripture in some way. It's it's um and if Jesus can can say that and still be within the will of his heavenly father, then I think I can say to a grieving mother or a grieving um parent or or spouse that that they can stand in that too. And that that those questions don't disqualify grace. Right. Right. And and give people permission to grieve, give people permission to to stand in in that grief and not even put a timeline on it. I think we're all different. So I think that's important to um because we come into those moments of grief and everybody has their own expectations of how that grief should be handled. But I think part of our role as ministers is to is to stand with that person or that group of people, whether it be a family or a community, and um and just say, you know, you have permission to grieve, and we want to we want to hold that for you.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned the timeline thing, because you know, those of us who've done some study are aware of uh Kuba Ross's six stages or seven stages, depends on how you read or uh stages of grief, and and people sometimes look at that like a checklist, and it's not. They weave in and out. And you are so right, Jamie, they um the length of grief, um I mean, you know, even if you've lost a pet that you've had for years, and you hear something a month later, two months later, and you find tears streaming down your cheeks, um, doggone it, why am I why am I not over this? You know, grief is something that lives and has a a a life of its own. And I and I love the way you say it. It depends on the personality, it depends on the person, depends on. Um, I had someone tell me just not too long ago that they had a s uh a parent that died, and and they said, I don't think he ever really got over the death of his wife, which had been a couple of years earlier. So grief is an interesting thing. I have said to folks, when they've come into that anger stage, that God can handle your anger. God can handle your anger. Depends on my family's kind of conflict avoidant, you know, and we deal with that a little bit. And I I just think we need to say to people, if you're mad as God, mad at God, trust me, God can handle it. Get it out. Say it. Absolutely. Go go to a place where you can say it. Uh a pastor, a counselor, whatever you need to do, to say, this makes no sense, and if you're a God who cares, why did you let this happen? etc. etc. etc. Um, you mentioned a passage while ago from the scripture. I'm wondering what other scriptures have been especially meaningful for you as you've uh directed people or guided people or stood with people as they move through their loss and grief. Anything come to mind?

SPEAKER_01 14:16

You know, uh I don't always use this piece of scripture when I'm preparing a eulogy, but it's one that I go back to often and it's from Lamentations, just the book of Lamentations. But uh a lot of times if I'm having personal conversations, I'll bring that up because you know, Lamentations is written by by a man who's just watching his whole city burn, and he's watching everything that he's loved and everything that he's cared for, and everything that's given purpose and meaning to his life just come crumbling down and people being you know forced into exile. And and literally right in the middle of of his laments uh about his situation, right in the middle of those laments is where you know he he says, God's mercies are new every morning. Wonderful. And and and and that sits right in the middle of lamentations. That's a powerful word. So I think, Terry, I think for us uh that most of our society, when someone's grieving, they want to lead them towards happiness, right? They want to lead them to a place where you got to get over this grieving so you can be happy again. Well, I think as ministers, we don't lead towards happiness, we lead toward hope. And um, and so I think and there's a difference there. And so I think so that's why I really appreciate the book of Lamentations, because there's there's laments on the front end and the back end. So it's it's bookended, but in the middle it says, His mercies are new every morning. And to me, that is a man speaking of hope in the midst of pain and suffering and and heartache.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Well said. Um it causes me to to realize that sometimes I'm uncomfortable with somebody else's grief. And as I'm uncomfortable with somebody else's grief, I'm trying to push them to a place. Uh you said happiness, or at least push them to a place where it's okay. You know, you need to get to a place because I need for you to be okay. And God help me, that's not real helpful when I do that for somebody else. But it it may be the human tendency for all of us. You know, you mentioned a while ago uh Jesus on the cross saying, uh, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? One of the things I think about with that passage is Jesus was quoting Psalm 22. We think of Psalm 23, which, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will feel no evil. God is with me. I love Psalm 23. How many times have I read that in a service or with someone who's dying or other settings as well? But I think sometimes uh it helps me to think that maybe Jesus, too, in his humanity, was reflecting on his spiritual rootage in quoting a portion of a psalm that he knew to be real for him. And uh so, yeah, that's that's one for me. Another one for me is a Psalm 34, the Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. Those are words, and they can come across very empty, and sometimes I hold off on any kind of scripture I share with the grieving because I don't want to sound too spiritually languaged in a very human moment. But at the right time, that can be a lifting passage I have found with people as well.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

And and I love that passage. The Lord is near the brokenhearted, not the not the fixed or not the content or not the ones who have their life together, but the brokenhearted. Yeah. And I think that's a great reminder.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Yeah. And boy, is that not true of some of the folks we've walked alongside of uh in their loss, whether that be somebody who's lived a long and full life uh or somebody who is in the prime of their life. Um, you know, I had somebody say, and I know they meant well, but uh I had a Down syndrome sister-in-law, Jeannie, and she died at 54, and she was the image of love to anybody and everybody. And somebody said in in that moment to us, meaning well, well, at least she lived to be 54. And and I know where they were coming from cognitively, but emotionally, I wanted to say, don't minimize my grief. You know, emotionally I want to say, yeah, yeah, but I love Jeannie. I didn't want to see her die. I didn't want to see her leave our family because she was such a heart of love for us, and to this day, that's her that's her legacy. Uh and uh what a gift she was. Um go ahead. You were gonna say something.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

No, I would just I'm gonna turn the tables a little bit and ask you a question. When you have someone, you know, who says some things like, you know, well, you know, God might have needed another angel, or when you have someone who says those kind of things to you, how do you respond to that?

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Um Yeah, I shouldn't have let you turn the table. Um well, I think it depends on the relationship and the person. Sometimes my response is simply uh a hug and a pat and silence, you know, because I'm I'm recognizing that's where they are and that's how they're dealing with it. And I remember what somebody said to me one time when on a first trip over to the Holy Land, and we saw some Bedouins, and and I looked out the the bus and these very, very poor people, and I said, But for the grace of God, there go I. And the person looked at me and said, You really believe that? And it got me to really thinking about what we say, well intended, and there may even be some truth to some things. If I had if you said that to me in our relationship, I'd say, Jamie, let's talk. Sure. Do we really believe that? Yeah. Or I might come back to it with a person later on. You know, you said to me a couple of weeks ago this, and it's kind of lived with me. Uh, let's talk about that. What what what did you what did you mean to say? Did I hear you correctly? I don't want to come across as um condescending, but at the same time, I think a part of our role is to lead people in a good path. I believe more theology is learned and passed along at memorial services than many other places in this life of ours. And I've been in some where I've just about cringed. And uh doesn't mean I'm perfect and have always done it right, but I am saying that people will come to weddings and funerals that will never go to churches, and that's why I started doing a uh shall I say a uh a sermonette at weddings, uh to kind of have an opportunity to pass along what I think is a healthy understanding of the heart of God. So thanks for turning the table on me, Jamie.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

No, I I agree. I think um I was just telling my wife the other day, uh, you know, I'm always trying to be very intentional with my words, and um but more so I think in funerals, because I mean it's one of the few places in ministry where we have someone's almost undivided attention and people leaning on every word. So I think it's I think it's imperative of us as ministers that we um that we yeah, we we we're careful with our words.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

And I think it's a place to acknowledge the humanity. I remember dear Nell Wigand, who was a matriarch at Gainesville First when I was there, and she struggled with cancer and and and uh her life lived longer than she thought, and then it came back and she was diagnosed, and Buddy Langston said to me something that Nell had said to him when the diagnosis came back. She said, Damn it, I just bought some tires. And you know, I I said that in her memorial service because I think it's important that we share the humanity of the struggle we have with death. We all know we're gonna leave this earth, but we don't want to get on the train today, and we don't really like to think about it much. And there are even those who think if I think about it too much, I may bring it sooner than it needs to come. Jamie, we've got just a few minutes. Anything else you'd want to say to our audience about grief and loss uh this morning? Thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

No, I don't I don't think so. I think um I think a pastor's role is is again not to make the pain smaller with words. I don't think we try to we try to cover it up, we don't try to hide it, we don't try to push anyone in a particular direction. It's just giving people permission to sit in it. And so, but I think we're called, and I think all of us as friends or or spouses or colleagues or or just people, we're called to to bear witness to to pain. We're called to hold the grief, and I think at the end of the day, as a follower of Christ, to point people towards God who meets us in that valley of the shadow of death.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Amen. Amen. Easter is about resurrection, and resurrection is about our faith. And sometimes I have said, I almost wish churches had instead of crosses on their steeples, empty graves on their steeples. Because that's really, really what we're about. We are Easter people. And regardless of what we go through, and I may need you to tell me this one day, Jamie, because sometimes we need others for us to tell them, our best days are ahead. Even in death, our best days are ahead. We the people of resurrection. Well, thank you, Jamie Prickett, Pastor at Gainesville First United Methodist Church, and thank you, folks, for being a part of this Sunday morning. If you'd like to know more about these kinds of things, I would invite you to consider going to Mondaymemo.org and you can find some information there about the book Monday Memo, a collection of reflections on faith, life, and family. It is a joy to have you with us on Sunday morning. God bless you, and may you have a wonderful week. All right.