ACTIVISM, But at What COST? (Episode 1 | Segment 1:)

Sister 2 Sister Podcast | Episode 1: Activism, But at What Cost?

What does activism really cost the women leading change on the frontlines?

In the premiere episode of the Sister 2 Sister Podcast, hosts Valerie Loloju and Godano Yussuf sit down with Domtila Chesang, a seasoned grassroots advocate and women's rights leader, for an honest and deeply personal conversation about the realities of activism beyond the headlines. Together, they explore the emotional, personal, and systemic challenges that women activists face while working to transform their communities.

From burnout and emotional labor to leadership pressures and the hidden sacrifices often made by women in advocacy spaces, this episode shines a light on the human side of movement-building. The conversation also examines how institutions, donors, and policymakers can better support grassroots-led change and what sustainable activism truly looks like.

Most importantly, this episode is a testament to resilience, healing, and hope. It reminds us that behind every movement are women carrying stories, communities, and dreams for a better future.

Sister 2 Sister Podcast is a flagship storytelling and advocacy platform of the Sister to Sister Initiative, created by African Women's Rights Advocates (AWRA) to amplify the voices, experiences, and leadership of women and girls across Africa.

✨ For Us, By Us.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Just the fact that there's a girl in the university that was never cut, that will never be cut, that will never cut her daughters, that will be educated, that will speak up for herself. Yeah. I think I was meant for this. I was actually born for this because I f feel that I was a very different child. I also have just remembered or recalled that I was the first girl in my village to wear a troza.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Hi everyone, my name is Valerie Lolodru. I am one half of the S to S podcast, and my name is Godano Yousuf.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

I am the second half of the S to S podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

And welcome to the Sister to Sister Podcast. So much fun is about to be had on this podcast. How are you doing, babe?

SPEAKER_04 1:11

I am doing well. How are you doing? It's good to see you. It's good to see you too. I we are saying it's good to see you yet. We've been together, I think, the past week. Yeah. But yeah, it's so amazing to onboard this podcast, the Sister to Sister Podcast. It's deeply rooted on sisterhood, um, backed by grassroots women who want to speak about FGM, child marriage, and the advancement of what young women who are actually but the backbone, right? Of what is this conversation about women? And we can't wait to hear you, we can't wait for you to hear us, we can't wait to have the um to for you to hear the amazing guests we have lined up for season one. And is this going to be a very merry conversation? So get on board, guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Get on board, stay tuned, stay tuned, get us this to please. Um, so this marks the first episode of our S2S series, and um I I really love the choice of our first guest. I don't know about you. Uh, we are bringing in studio a very phenomenal woman leader, uh, household name, and everything in between. I I don't want to go so deep into it. I think she definitely has a lot to say about herself. Welcome to the pod Dom.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Welcome back and listening to you guys introduce the podcast. Such an inspiration, it's even so lovely to just share uh this couch with you and have your brain with us this episode.

SPEAKER_05 2:44

Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much. You don't know how um glad I am that we are doing this together. We're doing it our own way. Um so my name is Dom Tila Chesang and um I'm from West Pocourt County, uh, but I currently live in Nairobi. Um I am um women's rights advocate that um uh has spent over 10 years in the front lines of her community uh speaking up for uh girls and women. Um I am a trained high school teacher. I don't know whether everybody knows that. Now you know, uh, but uh I am not practicing. I chose to set that aside for the bigger cause, which is to um advocate for the rights of girls and women with a special focus on eradicating FGM, child marriage, and other forms of gender-based violence. So, yes, and I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_04 3:37

Well, welcome thank you so much. I think um Val and Val will also agree that it's it's the closest you might feel, especially if you're in the FGM space, the closest you might feel to sitting next to royalty, to women who have been paving the way, and it's an amazing work, and it we root so much for of what we do from the women that women like you, women who whose shoulders we actually really do stand on.

SPEAKER_06 4:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

So yeah, thank you very much. You can't wait to hear.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yeah, so um often than not when we hear about um activists and advocates at the front line of FGM, we have this certain perception of who they are and what they believe in and what what made them do the work that they do. Sometimes it's looked upon as all glamour where we say, Oh, you just need to start an NGO and get funding and start working with white people and the community and tra and and and travel. That's that's the glamour that we see, but we know that it's way more than that. And there is a million plus women across the globe who are doing similar work, and sometimes they might feel not seen as much as they would want to be. We don't get to see the behind the scenes, the making. I mean, it's been 10 years in the making. I know there is an activist who just started her work right now, and this is an activist who is marking her 15th year anniversary. Sometimes she feels not seen as much. She feels she has not understood what it means to be in this space as much as possible. She has not patted herself on the back for the work that she has done. So I want us to break down that today. Let's really see what it looks like to be a frontline activist. And I hope you will allow us to get into your world.

SPEAKER_05 5:35

Yes, please. Uh baby. Okay. I am very ready for Tuesday, so let's do this.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

So let us start from the beginning. Yeah. Who is the who is the little girl behind all of this work before all this work started? The work before FGM and activism. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 5:56

Wow. So uh like I said, I'm so excited that uh we are finally um sharing a platform, uh, like between sisters, talking about our work and our experiences, our journeys, and uh, I'm just so privileged to be sharing mine today uh with the hope that it will inspire someone or it will impact um something. So um Dom Tila is my name, like I said, and uh before uh the Dom Tila, Dom Tila the activist, there was a Dom Tila uh from West Pocott, a young girl, uh a secondborn of um six uh siblings and uh the first uh daughter of my mother. So um before all this work and all that, I was just a little girl in my village. I grew up in a village and went to school, a village school, um, and uh it never occurred to me at any given point that I would find myself here. So uh the other day I was um uh not till the other day, actually the last few weeks, uh I have started to write my book. Okay, man. So I am in the process of uh documenting my life, uh something that I've really looked forward to, and but I was really waiting for the right time uh to start uh narrating, you know, with Dom Tila and uh how far she has come, uh how many um barriers she had had she has had to overcome to get to this uh point, but also uh to just like really share that very intimate uh part of my life so that um I'm able to release it because I feel like I've been carrying so much and this is part of that journey. So uh rest assured that this is going to be part of that book. So this bit is also going to have a section uh in my book. So anyway, um I I I cannot say that I saw myself here today, but I when I began to write my book the other day, I started to like identify patterns that clearly show that I will become something, somebody. I'll become a voice one day, one time. Because I was going back to the time when I was just a young girl and I was I I was observing things and I can remember specific uh instances where I called people out or I raised um a concern. And clearly being born in a village that wasn't expected. So but now I can when I go back, I can trace back uh this that I am today to that point and say that I think I was meant for this. I was actually born for this because I feel that I was a very different child. I first of all, I just wanted to be a child. When I was young, I just wanted to be a child. I never wanted to, I never wanted to be seen as a deputy mom because that is the expectation of a firstborn daughter. Yeah? You are a firstborn daughter. Ah you are not. No, I'm not exactly not. I I don't have another we need to know each other. Well, before this. So I technicality issues. Yes. Okay, I luck you. So anyway, I I I sort of like um wanted just to be a to be a child. And uh I I was I was very keen on identifying patterns of injustice happening in in my family. I used to see how boys were being treated differently and uh compared to us girls. And I give I'll give an ex an example. Please do. There was an instance where we used to go to the farm and the girls like us who wake up early in the morning. I have actually step siblings, or I'll call them half-siblings, or half-sisters and half-brothers, because I come from a big family. Um so the girls who will be girls will be uh asked or required to wake up early in the morning and then uh prepare breakfast, you know, do all those house chores, like the morning stuff, and then we all go to the farm with the boys or my brothers that haven't done nothing since they woke up. They woke up, they took breakfast. So for me to remember that we were very young, and then later on we'll come back from the farm, we will come back home, have lunch, but the boys will do what? After lunch, they'll go back and just roam around the village. And what happens to us? The girls start there preparing for dinner and stuff, cleaning the dishes and stuff. So those things stuck with me. I was I was I was very I was very disturbed. Yeah, but of course I didn't I didn't know what to call it, I didn't even know what to to say or like what to think of it. I didn't know whether it was trying, but I still felt like something was alright. So those um those uh instances, right now that I'm here, I can say that I think I knew that something was, something needed to be to be corrected. Yeah, and at the same time, I also have just remembered or recalled that I was the first girl in my village where Troza. There are things I don't know, the things are going to come out of my book that I even I'm surprised, but I realize now how I started this journey, you know, way back. But uh that aside, I was also a very um thoughtful observan, and uh very I was very bright in school. So and the other thing that I I will say that I'm starting to acknowledge right now is that I never fitted in the category of a wave material. Exactly, you know the the the definition of how you're perceiving it. Yeah, because so and that I'm saying I mean that mark that it's very important for this story. Okay, I never fitted in, I was a very small child, but don't be don't be deceived by this dress.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yes, do not be girls, she's tangled.

SPEAKER_05 11:56

So I was a very small child, I wasn't like a strong child, I was just child wanted to play. Yeah, but uh girls in my village, you know, there was this um uh expectation that you know as a as a girl you have to show you know your skills. So when you go to the forest to look for firewood, you have to try to carry the heaviest load. I tried, I failed. Yeah, I tried many times, guys. I did I gave my best. We will go to the river, try to fetch water, but you know, the girls, some of my friends like the from the village, they will have like a 20 uh literature and then they'll just like swing it around and throw it on their back. I try, I will always fall down. And these are girls were almost my aidmates. So, uh, long story short, I think that's the time I realized that was not my thing. That's why I said I was not fit for uh buy material. Yes, so that saved me because that then made me to discover where my strengths were, which was school. So I was very good in school, so and I focused on that. Yeah, and sadly, most of my friends uh and age mates, my peers, the girls, they were married. They were cut, they were married, so I was the only one, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yeah, so um just tell us a little bit about your friends. So your friends went through the cut. Is it because they immediately showed interest in wanting to get married, or is it that they didn't do so well in school? So the alternative was to be married off.

SPEAKER_05 13:28

Um so actually, FGM is just one of the things, yeah, it's just it's a process, it's not like something that you have to even uh consider or you have to discuss. No, it's just like it's like a pathway, yeah. So, and that's why I was saying it's very important that you note down, I was not aware of material, yes, because that is one path. Yeah, and the other path, the other alternative was education. Yes, so this was the path, like you have to walk through this path. And most of my friends, because they fitted in that system, so it was a smooth transition for them. They had to go through the process, no questions, yeah, and then they were uh, of course, when they came of age, uh they they were cut, and then of course, what do you expect after you're cut? You're married. Yes, so and me on the other hand, I was I was not fit for that system or for that uh structure, so I had to chat a different way, which is now I had to stay in school, you know. But uh that didn't just happen overnight, it also happened through a lot of preparations because we used to see other girls like being cut and we used to celebrate them. We used to personally I used to look forward. I actually looked forward to the day I'll be cut. Yeah, there was a time I actually was looking forward to the day I'll be cut. Uh, because uh I I've said this story over and over again, like as a young girl then, because FGM wasn't criminalized then, it was still a normal you know practice. Um so as a young girl, we were never shown the the actual uh process, the whole process of the cutting. What they only showed us in my uh community was just the the excitement, the celebration, you know, the attention that the initiates were given, but nobody um informed us or exposed us to the cut itself. So we were all like looking forward to the time we will get to that age that we will also experience that, you know. Uh but um I I I I got a very rare opportunity when I was almost maybe just like one year before my time, I got a very rare opportunity uh to witness the cutting, yeah, which I wasn't actually allowed to. It wasn't supposed to be that way. But just being a young girl and you want to see what happens be like beyond this stage. Yeah. So, and apparently, uh in in summary, in my community, there's um the the FGM is done in two stages. There's a first stage, there was a it doesn't happen now. There was a first stage and there's a second stage. So the first stage was like a public sort of like uh event and everybody's there, both men and women, young girls and other women, but there's a second stage, which is the stage where I was not allowed to see, but I saw. So I sneaked into that second stage with another cousin of mine, uh same age. Uh we sneak to the second stage, which is like in a hidden uh place, and then I saw it all. And that saved me. So besides the fact that I was not fit for this path. This path, I still also got a very rare, you know, um, opportunity to see that this is it's not the excitement, it's not the celebration, it's more than that. So I saw my cousin uh lying down there in a pool of blood, and other girls were waiting online, and women were like covering her mouth, her screams, her screams, and I did not want to, I and I I made up my mind. Like from that moment, that was like a transition for me because I said, wait a minute. Like, this is it. Yeah, because we had seen this bit, but now there was this bit because nobody knew about it. Only women who have been cut are the ones who are allowed to partake in that. Yeah, because I think they knew it very well that to scare young girls. So that that that cancelled it for me. All the aspirations of wanting to be cut one day and all that. I was like, mm-mm, mm-mm, this is not for me. I went all the way home. I I I spoke with my mom that evening. Uh, I feel like I I I I used to ask so many questions. I need to have this conference with my mom at some point. So I asked my mom, like, wait a minute, um, because I was disturbed. I was really, really, really now scared. Yeah. And and then, because I'm like, why is nobody talking about it? Because, like I say before, I still I noticed things, I noticed patterns, and I knew that something was wrong about this, something was wrong about that. I was that kind of a child that would never sit back and watch things happen. So I asked my mom, like, wait, uh, if I I try to be smart around it because I asked her, if I have to be cut, like this way, if I have to be cut, I would I think I would really like to be cut in a hospital. Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:07

Yeah, yes. Maybe, maybe just uh you might have mentioned it, but just to ask you what age were you at this point?

SPEAKER_05 18:14

I think I was either 12.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 18:17

Yeah, 12. I either 12, 11, 13.

SPEAKER_04 18:20

You really must have been a bright kid to ask if you might go to the hospital.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

Yeah, yeah, because I I I had learned that I had heard from other people that um there were women who had been taken to the hospital, you know, for the CS. Yes. So and somebody must have mentioned, you know, village staff conversations that when you are in the hospital, your your stomach is cut open, but you are given something, you don't feel the pain. So for me it was about the pain. Yeah, it was about the pain. So I was like, I would rather I'd rather have mine in a hospital because I thought this is this is this has to be the only way. Because there were no options then. Yeah, so my mom nodded and she just said, Okay, that okay was not okay. Yeah, that's okay, was not okay. You are my mom, I know you. That okay was not okay. Yeah, and I knew no, I'm not convinced. So um, because I then also at that time, and it'd be plenty part, my sir. Because I realized at that time, even the boys were already uh starting to be cut in a hospital. Yeah, that there was no there was no uh there was no hospital FGM for the for the girls. Yeah. So the boys, even my my elder brother, and even my other brother, they were cut in a hospital, yeah, you know, like by uh medical health uh personnel. So I then I was asking myself those sort of questions, how come, how come the boys have the alternative to get hospital? Because I knew they will they will not feel the pain. So what is wrong? Why can't the girls also have that? So anyway, so my mother was like, okay, but thankfully my mother was not for FGM, yeah, but she never also spoke out about against FGM. Yeah, interesting because she's just a woman in the village, she's been born in this culture, yeah, but she she's a survivor and she doesn't support FGM, but she doesn't have the voice, or she didn't have the voice to to name it, you know. So she didn't pressure me. But long story short, I was able to uh not be convinced by that, okay? And I derived a way of uh running away from home. I went to a boarding school, or to girls boarding primary school, where I met other girls from other communities because I was just looking for validation that whatever I was feeling was right. That's not crazy, I was not stressed, I was not disobedient. And I found other girls because I had never left my village before then. I never knew, to be very honest, and this is what I always feel for the girls back in the villages when I when I go to the villages that I had never knew that there was there was another world. Of course, things are different now because of social media, social media stuff. But I never knew there was another world outside outside my world. I never knew there were other communities, you know. I just thought it was us. So that that opportunity uh now exposed me to a number of things. Uh, because I was very sharp and I was very bright, so I was able to connect dots. You're from this community, okay. The other people from out of this community, okay, well and good. Then that's all I needed. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

Which is very interesting, yeah. Because at such a tender age, you've um seen patterns, you've seen like clues towards something that is not really okay, sitting okay with you, but you cannot self-express. As you've mentioned, even your mom at her age will not really express that she's against FGM. Because again, we are in an African society, right? Which leads me to ask, what was your first anger towards, okay, this issue is not sitting well with me? Because I believe that we we always have bits and pieces of things that spread around, right? That make you reach a point, uh a boiling point, and you're like, yeah, cut the cameras, cut the show. Now You do not you're you're really angry. What was that moment for you that made you really angry and you're like, My voice has to be heard somewhere.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

So I if I follow that back, I'll say the very first instant where I was triggered was when I saw my cousin being cut and lying in a pool of blood and all these people holding her down, felt that it was okay. That was the first sign. Because I don't understand how a human being can be pinned down and uh people are like you know cutting flesh off her body and everybody thinks it's okay. I still I still I still feel the same way today when I read when I read that uh people are committing crimes, and none of those people, three, five people actually saw that I was wrong. So that was the first instance. The second time now is when I I realized that okay, well, I have been able to escape. I am in a boarding school, but I have to go home over the holiday. I still felt like something is not right and someone has to someone has to say something. Yeah. You know, but nobody was saying something. And then there was a time where I felt now that I'm I'm I'm remembering or I'm talking about it, it's it's it angers me, but I'm not angry at my other people that were saying that when I we were in a we were we were um taking a bath in the river, which is very common in the village. My mother and and another woman, uh, who happens to be a relative, were having a conversation. That was a time when there was like small bits and bits of conversations here and there about FGM. Nobody knew how to call it, nobody knew whether it was it was uh to be you know to be abandoned or not. So these women were talking about FGM. These women meaning my mom and my other uh relative. And we were just thinking about, and then they said, I think it was my mom or the other woman who said, okay, if if if if that part of the body has to be cut, uh okay, how about how about we just remove, how about they just remove the clitoris and they do away with they they they they they they they leave the the labia, yeah. But anyway, I mean, or and they they they leave alone the labia. The other woman said, uh, but how will it look like? Yeah, how will it look like if they remove the clitoris and then they leave the other part? It will just be like you know, like a pathway. I don't know what to do. Yes, yes, I I can picture it. I can picture that. But she described it, or like you know, like straight. So where is the rest of the the meat and stuff, you know? So so that like really got me, got it to me because I was asking myself, what is wrong with it? What is wrong with this part of the body? Yeah, why do why do why because these women were actually struggling to find a time for it, was try like negotiating, yeah. Because somebody has somebody has said it has to go, and now they're trying to negotiate. Then me on the other hand, a young girl, I'm like, why does it have to go?

SPEAKER_04 25:05

Yes, and especially at that point, you already have some form of trauma from seeing even your cousin being in that position, you're like, why can't they just leave it?

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Yeah, yeah, and I think what's also really coming out strongly is when we start recognizing FGM as a form of violence, yeah, then it really moves the conversation forward. Yeah, even from culture, yes, away from culture, and actually, you know, um, some of the things that you're describing is violence against women, you know, pinning them down, a group of people not seeing themselves doing anything wrong, uh, young girls who cannot consent, who do not have um willpower, that is a form of violence. And you know, violence also really uh thrives in silence and in stigma and in being covered up. So that's why we see the parties and you just sold the fallacy of what it actually looks like. And unfortunately, that's still the fallacy that is being sold up to now, and that's why we are still in this fight um uh uh against female genital mutilation. And I would want to say that you started your activism even when you didn't know that it was activism, and I know that uh you proceeded to did you do you remember um starting these conversations now past high school when you got now into into university because I would really like to see how activism looked like when you were younger and how activism looks like for you right now.

SPEAKER_05 26:45

Yeah, so um I also kind of want to acknowledge that I feel like the path was also laid for me in a way. Some things are never by accident, yeah. You know, you're broke you're born and you you're just like you're you're you're you're born and then you are uh positioned in a way. Uh so I I cannot say that there was a specific time when I started. I just feel like it was an ongoing thing. It just happened. It just like uh happened, evolved from point A to point B because uh part of what I will say uh is that even when I used to go home over the holiday, I still had that fire to or the urge to to make people see that what I chose was the right thing. I didn't have the words or the campaign, but I still I still wanted people to say that what I chose was the right thing. And uh and and sadly, my sister was cut. My younger sister, the one who was me was cut uh when I was away in school, and that's when I realized my mother was not for FGM. And that also gave me now more, you know, support. My mom was against FGM because she called the the women out, those who did it, and she almost refused to welcome my sister back home. And she was she had she had to be like begged. Those women had to beg to let my sister come back home after she had had FGM. So that gave me more power to talk about this. And then uh I started to have conversations that I didn't know they were actually geared towards FGM. But I had a conversation with um uh people from the church, young young people or the youth. So we used to have our own youth groups during the holidays. And being in a high school, that means you are you have uh you know like a higher platform to talk to other girls who are in primary school. So that gave me a position too. At least I had something to say, you know, because before before you become um an activist or you become uh a speaker, you must have some level of knowledge, you know. You have you have some elevation, you know, that happened. So that's what what gave me a position in high school, and then uh when I was transitioning from high school to the university, uh a group of women because things were also happening behind the scenes. Like there was a conversation around FGM as well, and then uh there were groups like World Vision who uh happened to come to our village then. And then we I I went to some of their camps or their seminars, their workshops, where they were now like confirming to me that yes, you're right. So that's already gave me uh the the permission of the go-ahead. And and thankfully also I never really felt bad when my sister, I never felt bad as somebody who refused to go FGM. Uh when my sister was cut, my younger sister was cut, which which was supposed to be the case, I was supposed to feel bad because left out. Like left out because a young girl, you know, has gone through it. Because FGM is about quote unquote, your brave, your courageous. So I think for me I I made peace. Yeah. That I am not you, I am none of those things. I am none of those things, and you can do nothing to me. So the campaign just evolved like that, and then the women, women were also already forming um, you know, like organizations, organizing themselves, talk about these issues, and I it also happened that some of those women uh happen to be my relatives, my half-sisters, who are already organizing themselves to talk about FGM, to actually even not even talk about it, but to feel yeah, to talk about it, to have dialogues, like what is FGM? What did what happened to us? So, because of the fact that there were my relatives and some of them are my friends, so by default, I found myself sitting with them in the air, you know. And that's what I'm saying. For me, I also feel like the path was sort of almost like laid for me. It was just for me too. There was another woman that you know spoke. Yes, that's it. So I then I I I found myself in the in the group, the discussions with these women, uh, and then I was learning, but at the same time, I was then in the university. So, and this is the time I discovered my passion. Uh in in one of the workshops that we had in Of Tomb Girls, I was being hosted at Oftoom Girls Boarding Primary School, uh, which was my primary school. So I was being uh tasked with the women were the one organizing the workshop, they were the one to the trainings. So I was almost like a head girl. Because there were girls who had been mobilized from different villages. So because I was at the university, most of them were already in primary school or in high school or were not in school. So I was given a role, you know. I became uh quote unquote like the head girl. But that's when, and then I used to love to stay with the girls. I would stay in the dormitories with them when the other members would go and find somewhere else nice to sleep. I'll sleep in the dormitory because it was my dormitory, you know. So and then we bonded with the girls, and that's when I realized that I had something, and people could sit and listen. And people I I was able to connect with the girls. That's when I saw uh that I there was more like I had a calling, but there was more that I needed to do than just sitting there and and attending the workshops. So I already saw myself as somebody who can speak and people can listen, and I can I could feel the connection that there was something that was being achieved through that. So that's when I I was like, okay, I can do this.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

Yeah, yeah, finding a purpose for your voice, like your voice finding that purpose without you really pushing it or anything. Yeah, and I understand from what you've said that um in your early days a lot of the community, the young girls, just the inspiration is what really pushed you. Will you say that that's correct? Um, like what was fueling you in your early days of activism?

SPEAKER_05 32:31

I will just say what was fueling me is that I I had um a confirmation that FGM was wrong. Yeah. So what was fueling my activism or my urge to talk to speak out was the fact that I I had that strong conviction that FGM was wrong. Yeah, the patterns were there, they were there. Yeah, the evidence was all over, world vision were there, you know. There was a lot of conver about, but then also I had gotten the exposure. I had been uh interacting with other women and girls from other communities, so I had seen light out of my village. Yeah, so what really drove me was the fact that guys, uh, this is not the way. Yeah, I have traveled, I have been uh out there, and this is this is wrong. Yes, so that kept me going. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

And I think um I think it's um it's very important to always go back to why the work started. And it's amazing as you were starting the conversation, you're saying now that I'm reflecting when I'm writing my book is when I'm realizing all these patterns. So basically what we are saying is it just didn't come out of out of nowhere. Yeah, and also just you applauding the women who came before you who validated the feelings that you had the very strong feelings uh against female genital mutilation. And I know that's where a lot of activism um is rooted. And now we've come to the understanding of where Dom Tila comes from, um, where her activism came from. You've done primary school, high school. You said that you uh you are a trained teacher. I'm assuming that you did train, uh, you did teach after campus for some time.

SPEAKER_05 34:14

Not even the only time I the only time I went to class was during my ATG practice.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Oh, okay. Okay, so was it a bit crazy for your parents when you said that that's not the way that I'm going?

SPEAKER_05 34:27

I didn't say uh I I transitioned into what I was already volunteering to do when I was in school.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:36

So it was like a a seamless transition. Yeah. There wasn't like a break. Uh, because uh when I was at the university, I was already having conversations. Yeah. And now with the time, because I only gave you like a bit of it, but with the time, uh, those women were already organizing, they were conducting uh workshops, uh, we were moving from village to village. Actually, part of my earlier role was to look after the babies for these women. Yeah. So uh, but now eventually, because I was the only one who uh had had a university education, most of the women were not uh were semi-illiterate, people were illiterate. So I saw uh uh there was uh uh almost like um an obvious role for me to do take minutes, write some of the reports. So by the time I'm leaving university, I am already having role. Yes, so and I knew what I wanted to do. I knew that uh there was something waiting for me. So over the whole day I would be doing that. I'll be traveling and moving from one village to the other with the women, and then I'll be hold holding those workshops. I'll be invited to workshops sometimes myself by people like World Vision. So I was I was being prepared even when I was in the university. Yeah, so there wasn't like a place or a time where I had to post and you don't know.

SPEAKER_04 35:45

It was just like have you ever at any point during especially the beginning of Dom Tilla and as the activist, did you ever regret it? Like I should have just stuck with teaching and gotten my TSC now.

SPEAKER_05 36:04

No, no, yeah, I I will not call it that uh and not even at my early uh stages of activism. I have had moments where I questioned myself, I questioned my choices, yeah, uh, but not in a way that uh was what qualifies to be regretful. No, no, it's just my decisions, how things were happening, the frustrations, but I have never at one given point ever like you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Like thought I should not have gone this way.

SPEAKER_04 36:34

No, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

I think I I think that's very important because there's a lot of people who are now battling uh between um, say for example, quote unquote real careers, right? And because you know sometimes we call activism making noise, right? And that's what a lot of the people around you might see, uh especially at the very beginning when you're young and uh you need people say that you need a real career. So you know that's very important, especially for a lot of other young women who are having these feelings that what is being done in the community is wrong and they really want to speak up, but they're not really sure how their future looks like in activism. They're not sure whether there's gonna be regret that is going to come. So I think it's very important that you did not lie and say that it is has been a perfect journey and a very smooth journey, but just highlighting that it has I've had moments, but I've never really sat down and thought, why did I ever um pick this? And I think this really transitions us properly into um a deeper segment in terms of what does the what does the work really mean to the individual who the activist, the frontline activists specifically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:54

Yes, um, no, but I the whole time you were speaking, I was just thinking in my head, is Val calling me out?

SPEAKER_05 38:03

Because you ever regret?

SPEAKER_04 38:05

No, not really regret. I I I was also thinking because I um I am in uh uh education background wise, I'm in such a different education background. I did quantity surveying, which is in the construction industry, compared vis-a-vis to what we currently do. So I think um I have never really sat down and regretted it. Also, just what you've also said, there is always those minutes of hmm is the burden, and I'm I'm I'm very sorry for using the word burden, but the work that we do sometimes is really emotionally draining, and I'm like, would I have just had an easier life in the construction industry where I'm just saying you get it? But I believe that the fulfillment that I've gotten from this industry, just the same as what you've said, has supersedes the emotional turmoil sometimes. So yeah, I would really want to also just hear from you.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

What has that burden looked like the past 10 years?

SPEAKER_05 39:22

It's not it's not this no first time. There's a especially second person, yeah. It's been a process, yeah. So I can't even call it burden. It's it's just it's part of the process. It's it's just been part of the process. Like, how has the process been? You know, uh those moments that I that I I I I disputed to use the word uh regret. Uh so first of all, I really want to acknowledge that um this work is not easy.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Yes, it's not for the faint hearted.

SPEAKER_05 39:51

Oh yeah. It is an uphill task. It's not roses, it is not for uh it's not for everyone. Yeah, I would just declare it that way. It's not for everyone. Uh because I I I I have had, you know, I have had those moments that I almost lost myself. You know, at the peak of those moments was the time when I almost lost myself. Although I had lost myself in the process, but there was a time, there was a time when I f I felt like I was breaking and uh I was losing it. But thankfully that, you know, like top point or top uh uh uh level um happened at a time also when I had I had done this work uh for some time. So I had already also built some network of uh people. But uh what I can I can say is that this this work also there's no there's no there's no style. There's no style, there's no um like roadmap. There is no curriculum. There's no curriculum, there's there's just no structure. It's especially when you work at the community level. Because you have put yourself out there. I felt so exposed because of this work. I have no privacy, even as we speak now, uh, because of this work. I I lost all my my my benefits, you know, my privacy benefits, I lost that. And then um I I place myself out there as a solution. That was the mistake.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Tell us more about the mistake.

SPEAKER_05 41:32

That was the mistake. You probably portraying yourself as uh as an as a as an answer or as a solution to our people. Because when you come to a community and you talk about that, uh the effects of FGM and you say, I am not cut, I am here, I'm educated. This is the right path. So people will be like, okay, we want to take that path. How do we do it? So when people are figuring out how to do it, and they are there are so many challenges in the process of trying to transition from that culture to this other uh alternative. So then it is your it's your role, it's in your place now to figure that out with them. So there are those who are running away from pressure, there are those who are uh escaping uh child marriage, there are those who really want to be in school, but they don't have the money to remain in school. So that becomes your your extra responsibility. So for me, I feel like what um overwhelmed the most was the expectation, the needs of the community, because they they they just saw you. Because as an activist, you're not supposed to show your weakness. That is the that's the that's the the most uh challenging bit. You're supposed to be because you say this is wrong, that means you know this is right. Yes, and because this is right, then it's it's it's your outfit. So you have to defend it. So by defending, that means you need to have answers. Yeah, people uh come to you, you know. So that was the most uh challenging bit. And then at the same time, being a grassroots organization, and you are uh you are not trained to become an activist. Yes, you are not trained to become a manager, you're nobody you're not trained to become a CEO. You assume the role of a CEO or a manager, a founder, yeah, finance oversight, everything, yeah, everything, just just like you're the engine of this project. You have no skills, yeah. So um, so you keep to keep the work going. So that's why when I feel like I was I was juggling so much. And at the same time, you have to show that you are you're working. Yeah, you have to convince people that you are working in this, you know, there's impact, which which is true. There was impact, there's impact, but at the same time, at what cost? Yes. So you had I had invested my life myself. I put my life out there, and I it's like I told the people that come to me. Yeah, you know, the way Jesus called people, you know, come all you come to me, you know. But Jesus had the answers I didn't have. So at some point I feel like my I was my life was like of that uh of of my.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

my life was like that of an MCA without with no with with no with no cdf i understand whatever money so people will come to me people will call me uh at any time by the way if you ever work with the community if the people that are very indiscipline people that need to be trained it is no communities they know no boundaries i don't blame them yeah but we can do better yeah because they'll call you at the middle of the night and they will come to you I'm having a conversation with you the way we are sitting here if if that guy over there was a community uh person he will just walk in and start having a convo with me completely ignoring that you guys exist that is what happens like they'll they there's no respect for even your private space yeah so they will come to the office people come to the office I have this problem if they don't come to your office they don't find you in the office they call you on your phone if they don't call you on your phone they'll message you they don't message you they come to your house yeah other times I'll wake up and then someone's waiting for me in them in my living room Sunday there was a time where a woman even looked for me went to the village elder is it village elder I don't know village elder you're born in town I don't know but I'm getting shocked that's not a cocoa word to call me a millennial I was thinking about stand up for our hands they call a buddy dot com another we should have another episode what do you should not we should we should use um you're being overpowered by Gen Z also I love I love I love the influence yeah there's a lot of positive but I agree with you I think millennials should stand up more for themselves yes wow not close so what is the book I do so there so this no this I'm living in town like the urban part of West Poco um I'm living in a two-bedroom house I have converted my house into a rescue center without converting it directly but it just happened yeah there's so many girls living in my house uh girls who need to go to school girls who are just finding somewhere safe girls who just want to be near Domtila uh and then so this woman comes looking for me it's almost uh the beginning of the year girls are supposed to report back to form one uh she she doesn't know where I live but she has had me because I used to do my campaign I still do my campaigns on radio um I'm very vocal by the way very vocal and I'm very good know people you should follow her on her Facebook yes I uh I make a lot of meaningful noise yeah uh so people know me even before they see me even up to date people know me before they see me so this woman was like I'm looking for this I'm looking for this lady I want her to help me I've been told I have heard that she's helping people yeah so she's coming to your house so she's yeah she's on a Sunday morning so I am in my bedroom trying to get some sleep uh then she went to the I didn't even know where this Mukasa live because it's a village elder I didn't even know that those you know like the way there's a chief in town yeah so anyway so um that's what happened so but what I'm trying to say is that the pressure is so much when you live in the village where you work when this village is your village is your home is your people yeah you cannot you cannot separate yeah yourself and your job yeah you are part and parcel of that issue yeah it's not like where you have uh a JD that you have to stick to no your jd is to serve the people yeah whether it's uh from the finance department from the HR from education mentorship and all that so that's what actually almost killed me because there was so much and then I had I did not have uh enough support I was also fundraising as the only fundraiser so fundraising and trying to write those proposals you don't even know how to write them there was no proper support or proper system for support for women like myself yeah and I think it's for context you know when we speak about frontline activists and grassroots uh activists it means these are people who actually live in the villages right so this experience that you're bringing forth right like all the physical emotional and financial um burden that you are speaking about is very similar to that of very many other women who decided to stand up for themselves and I think one other thing is they need to just prove to the community sometimes that I didn't go I didn't go the wrong way. I'm doing something guys I'm I'm not and and we know that change does not look the way it looks on books right on on this other side you're truly you know as human beings we have this feeling where we want to belong right so we shouldn't never blame anyone when they want to belong so what you've done is you've stood up in the crowd and you've said I can do it.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

I can do it and you have to prove yes yeah and I'm going against what you guys believe and it can be a very lonely path and even the why the wildest part is as you've mentioned there is no JD for this job right so there is no for example if you work a regular eight to five you have you at work and you at home and you can have very different characteristics. But as a person who's at the front line for this work there is no you at work and you at home you are ever at work your life your personal life is scrutinized by the community if you do any misstep you if you do there is no autonomy for you to have privacy there is no privacy right and it it must be really challenging and hard and I can believe that a lot of the grassroots um even the grassroots level founders young women who just stand up because of discussions where even thing on social media women who stand up against FGM rape GBV there is always their their lives are now subjected to scrutiny um subjected to ridicule on a public platform and you've you've just spoken about what's wrong. And people do not want to understand that that's wrong. You need to convince a mature person that what they are doing is wrong. Whereas at the back of the head they also know it's wrong but they want you to convince them why it's wrong. You're given that burden of now convincing other people and Domtilla the conversation we will go on and on and on if we start discussing the the challenges that you went through and how those look like but I'll just want to know on those hard days on the days that someone is in your house at 7 a.m on the days that you're not able to feed and on the days that you have 30 girls in your house and you can't feed all of them I can believe that is such a challenge what kept you going and how does that heavy work feel and how do you just continue putting foil and telling yourself my work yeah um I think just having remembering the purpose and why you started actually kept me going despite all that you have mentioned the heaviness in the work but there was also um a part of me that was receiving the fulfillment which I think for me I I I held on to that you know the satisfaction that came with it for me just coming from my office in the evening for example and walking into my house some girls are watching the TV other girls are in the kitchen they are laughing they're they're cooking and then I would walk slowly into my bedroom and then just like close the door a part of me is like thankful and grateful that I am a safe place and my house is a self refuge but a part of me was also feeling lost and overwhelmed and you know feeling like okay what about me?

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Yeah like okay what what is going to happen tomorrow you know but so there was um there was like um like like not a conflict but there was there were like two two coexisting feelings yeah but I chose to hold on to the hospital yeah and you know um often than not when we think about feelings and realities is we might always argue that only one reality can exist uh at a time but the truth is we should be able to hold two thoughts at the same time even if they are conflicting where on one side you're holding the thought that I'm getting fulfillment from providing a safe space for the community for that one girl that I rescued last week for that one donor who said that they will reach out next week to see if they can fund or rather give a scholarship to this girl whilst on the other hand still feeling the the burnout the exhaustion the um loneliness of the path that you are walking through and I know one thing about the community is one thing that we do is we really hold activists to a higher ground. Yeah the standard is crazy the standard is so high because what do you mean you're tired?

SPEAKER_05 53:59

What do you mean you're burnt out this work that you're doing this what do you do this is your job yes this is what do you mean your job yes how how are you how are you see I'm not going to rescue a girl and we are calling you 500 kilometers from where you live even as we have this conversation as you were asking me a question I could feel some triggers because it's not like I am fully you know over some of these things so I still feel some moments that I was really you know badly affected of course I won't go into all the details but those moments where nobody postes to ask you if you're okay. Yes nobody cares whether you're okay or not yeah it is not their business to know whether you're okay what you because you nobody nobody asks you to be an activist in the first place. Yeah you volunteered you volunteer you literally did even left teaching them to do activism for for all of us yeah that was one moment that uh I think I'll I'll look back and I'm like I think this happens a lot even today even families like people expect you to be there for other people but nobody really takes a moment to think about you as the person like I think when you when you come in and as you said earlier when you were speaking about um when you present yourself as a solution all we see is a means to an end. Yes and I know even right now I know someone would say something like you see Dom Tila travel to this place she's definitely spending money that is supposed to come to the community but at the end of the day what we always say and we keep uh reiterating is you cannot pour from an empty cup if you do it you're going to run dry and the cup to whose benefit yes to whose benefit is that statement alone it never made sense yeah it's not like I was not told that and I and today I want to call that out sometimes we use some you know some some some statements or some terminologies yeah or you know some phrases but I wish we could say those things and actually explain it to the activists and guide them and support them to how do they fill their cups yeah when you give me a when you tell me something that please don't pour from an you're not supposed to pour from an epic epic up yeah then what how am I so so so so you have to show me how to refill the cup yeah so those things were said to me all of those things were said to me until you know you have to take care of yourself I was reminded a hundred times you really have to take care of yourself how with no tools no tools how you have to distance yourself you have to you know create a boundary between you and your job how yeah when you live in the community yeah you know when you speak the language when these are your sisters these are people that are known to you you know yeah yeah so that's I think that's one of the things that we are really trying to do with this podcast to provide a tool for fellow frontline activists um uh women advocates to see how they can better navigate this road from individuals who have gone through it before and I think it's gonna be a really amazing guide being a grassroots or a frontline activist is sustainable it's sustainability on itself on itself yes that is because you are based there yes with or without funding I was doing this work yeah you know people I will still host people in my house and I will feed them using my resources that was sustainability yeah yeah there was no funding there were so many times where we didn't have funding there was like a gap year in months where there was no funding