Sister to Sister Podcast
Sister to Sister is a podcast by African Women's Rights Advocates (AWRA) and a flagship product of the Sister to Sister Initiative, a platform dedicated to strengthening solidarity, learning, and collective action among women leaders and advocates across Africa.
The podcast amplifies the voices, knowledge, and lived experiences of grassroots activists, survivors, feminists, researchers, policymakers, and movement leaders working to advance the rights of women and girls. Through bold and honest conversations, each episode explores critical issues including ending female genital mutilation (FGM), child marriage, gender-based violence, feminist leadership, movement building, and the realities of activism.
Sister to Sister is a space for dialogue, healing, reflection, and shared learning. By centering the experiences of women at the forefront of social change, it celebrates resilience, challenges harmful social norms, and inspires collective action toward a future where every woman and girl can live free from violence, discrimination, and inequality.
Whether you're an activist, researcher, policymaker, student, or ally, Sister to Sister invites you to listen, learn, and join a growing community committed to advancing gender justice across Africa and beyond.
New episodes every two weeks.
Sister to Sister Podcast
Coming Back to Purpose | S2S Episode 2
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What happens when purpose calls you back?
In this powerful episode of the Sister-to-Sister (S2S) Podcast, hosts Valerie Loloju and Godano Yussuf sit down with grassroots leader and survivor advocate Seleyian for an honest conversation about purpose, resilience, and the realities of leading change from lived experience.
Seleyian shares her journey of stepping away from community leadership to pursue financial stability, the lessons she learned during that season, and what ultimately inspired her to return. Together, they explore the challenges of sustaining grassroots activism, navigating healing, and why survivor leadership must move beyond storytelling to influence decisions that shape communities.
This episode is a reminder that leadership isn't always linear—and that the people closest to the issues are often best placed to lead the solutions.
In this episode, we discuss:
- The realities of balancing purpose with livelihood
- Why many grassroots leaders step away—and why they return
- Childhood, identity, and growing up in communities affected by FGM
- Healing, resilience, and reclaiming purpose
- Why survivor leadership is essential in ending FGM
- Building movements that truly centre lived experience
If this conversation moved you, please like, comment, and subscribe to help amplify survivor-led voices and grassroots leadership across Africa.
About the S2S Podcast
The Sister-to-Sister Podcast is a platform where grassroots women leaders, survivors, and advocates share honest conversations on leadership, healing, gender justice, and ending Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). Rooted in sisterhood and lived experience, the podcast amplifies voices that are too often unheard while inspiring collective action for lasting change.
I speak about the abuses I've survived because silence is the reason why they keep happening.
SPEAKER_00That's true.
SPEAKER_04As being quiet about rape and child sexual abuse, as being quiet about economic abuse, as being quiet about I even learned that there is another form of abuse called spiritual abuse. Do not take responsibility of what happened to you. Let that responsibility rest with the perpetrator. Danger of addressing a single issue. And FGM has been branded around the health, the health effects of FGM. Which is okay to bring it out because some women are really suffering because of the effects that came with going through FGM. But then we always forget the socioeconomic impact of FGM.
SPEAKER_01Hi everyone, my name is Valerie Lelodru, and I'm one half of the S2L podcast.
SPEAKER_02And my name is Godani Youssef, and I'm the second half of the S2Ls podcast.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Sister to Sister Podcast.
SPEAKER_02When are we here? What's up? When are we here? Please subscribe to uh YouTube at our African Women's Rights Advocate, but also all our social media handles at the Sister to Sister Podcast on Instagram, on TikTok. We also are currently on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube Music, YouTube whenever you can get anywhere, anywhere slash sister to sister podcast and tune in, like, follow, comment, all of all of the above. So, how are you doing, baby? I'm good. Why do I feel like a second option to this conversation? I'm trying to pull people into this conversation. It's okay, you're forgiven.
SPEAKER_01How are you? I'm doing okay. I'm doing well.
SPEAKER_03Alhamdulillah, mashallah.
SPEAKER_02The guest that we have today. Phenomenal woman. A trailblazer, some might say. Yes. Actually, all she'll say. Yes. A trailblazer. We have such a special guest, someone close to both our hearts. The funniest person that we know. For sure.
SPEAKER_03So allow me to introduce our guest for today. Her name is Celeyan Partoib. She said, specifically mention my name in a pastoralist language. I have tried. Yes. So as I said, our guest for today is Silean Partoib. She is the founder and executive director of Murua Girl Child Education Program, which is a nonprofit organization working across pastoralistic communities in Narok, Samburu, Isiolo, Marsabi to promote girls' education, advance gender equality, and harmful practices such as female genital mutilation. She is a trained social worker and FGM survivor, and Celyan turned her lived experience into a mission to empower girls through education, sexual reproductive health and rights, mentorship, and community advocacy. Since 2018, that guy is almost 10 years in the making, her organization has reached more than 15,000 girls, helping them become informed, confident, resilient leaders. Celia Yan is an NFGM ambassador. She is an international speaker, having spoken on multiple regional and global platforms on matters of girls' education, agency, and empowerment. Her motto is grassroots actions for global impact. She continues to champion community-led solutions that create lasting change for girls and women.
SPEAKER_04Talking about me or another Malayan.
SPEAKER_02Who is that? Kunamwing. How many counties did you hear? Narok, Samburu, Isilo, Masabi. Guys, we told you a trail blazer.
SPEAKER_03Definitely.
SPEAKER_02We cannot wait to jump in with you.
SPEAKER_03We do hope the bio did your work justice. It did, it did. Yes. Yeah. So welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. This uh this is your space, and we can't wait to hear all about the work that you have done at the community and that you continue to do at the community. I know there's other founders who are going to be listening to this particular podcast. And I know that your experience is definitely going to make the work that they are doing even make more sense. Sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And just Celia, just Val has eloquently explained your bio. Yeah. But I would like to know, and for our viewers also out there to just know who is Celyan. And tell us something fun about yourself.
SPEAKER_04Okay, I'll try to top that bio. Do better. Celyan is an indigenous pastoralist woman. Born and raised in the pastoralist communities in Narok. I'm a mother, I'm an entrepreneur, a visionary leader, an artist. I wear many hats, but at the core of my identity is an indigenous pastoralist woman.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Okay. I I we need to start also saying we're indigenous pastoralist women. I really like the emphasis on indigenous woman.
SPEAKER_04Why? Because when you ask any woman who are you, they always start by what they do. I am the founder, I am the wife of, I am the mother of. But my identity is who is who I am and not what I do. So I was born in the indigenous community, so I'm not a girl anymore. So I'm an indigenous woman.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Wow. You say some women introduce themselves with who they are married to. Guys, mama, my name is or who they work for. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh, that's such an innovative way to introduce yourself because it takes you take the ownership back to what you want to identify as. What has your heart? Let me just jump in. Yes. I know you are an indigenous. What has your heart?
SPEAKER_04Girls. Girls. Girls run my world for me. Who runs the world? Girls. Yeah, girls run my world. Yes, yes. I think I contracted her to be happy.
SPEAKER_01Happy birthday, baby.
SPEAKER_04Uh-huh. So girls have your heart. Yes, girls. She just sees me when I walk around and I see a girl, young, older. I'm just smiling. Because for me, girls are just the beauty, they bring beauty into our lives.
SPEAKER_03Okay. And and I do agree because girls are really at the center of the fight that we are currently in. And they are just not beneficiaries. They are not just victims. They have the capability of taking the power and steering their lives in a certain way. And we can't wait to hear all about that. So jumping quite deep, right? So Celia, you founded uh Murua Girls. Yes. Yes. So in short, we called it Murua Girls. Yes, Murua Girls. Yes. So you founded Murua Girls. And you were in the deeps of it, like, guys, I'm a founder, I'm an executive director. And then shortly afterwards, you went back to employment. What happened? You had said bye to the 9 to 5, and then I don't know, was it a year or two later? You said, okay, I unfortunately have to go back to employment.
SPEAKER_04I go to grounds in Lika different.
SPEAKER_03Things are very different.
SPEAKER_04Things were different. Yeah. Could you tell us about that journey? The original, the story of Murrawa Girls, I started in 2015. That's when we began activities, but we actually got registered in 2018. So that's why you will hear saying 2015-2018. So between 2015 and 2018, I had savings. I had moved back home to live with my mom to make to cut down the costs of life. I had my daughter with me, so we went back to a smaller school in Narrocktown. My bills were manageable, but after three years of running, I found myself, my account has run dry, there's no income, grants have not started coming in yet. And of course, because we were not registered, so it was a bit difficult to fundraise. So one day I'm seated and I'm thinking, where are we going to survive? I don't have school fees. My mom is asking me, When are you moving out? You know, when are you finding a house? Because I told her, Oh, this is temporary. Temporary, one year, two years, three years. This is the fourth year. And so you could see that she was now becoming worried. You know, mothers get worried when they feel like your life is stuck. So I saw an advert on the papers for a youth coordinator position, which I was overqualified for actually. And I just applied because anything was better than nothing.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_04In the plot twist, it turned out that that's the role I actually needed to propel Murua to the level it is today. So I went and worked in the Mara with an organization called the Ma Trust. And the director then, I think she's still the director today, Dr. Crystal. Yes, yes. Took me under her mentorship. It wasn't planned. I just happened to work under her. We did a lot of proposal writing, a lot of fundraising. I would accompany her to meet potential donors without even knowing. I thought I'm just working to pay bills. But what was happening in the background was I was being mentored to know how an organization is actually run. And so that one year ended up being like a boot camp for me. Because when I came back in 2019 and started now rebuilding Murua Girls, we've never gone back, we've never lacked funding. Every year we keep scaling up. We started with one project, went to two. By this time we are doing this podcast, we've implemented 15 fully funded projects since 2018 to date.
SPEAKER_03We say clock it in this podcast. You said 15? 15 projects. 15 projects fully funded, yes. Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_04Across the counties. Yeah, in Narok, Kajado, West, and Samburu.
SPEAKER_03Wait, so when you say 15, so that is between so when did you go to Martrust? Was it in 2018?
SPEAKER_04I joined Martrust in January 2018 and left in May 2019.
SPEAKER_02Ah so a full year.
SPEAKER_03A full year, yes. So between 2019 and right now, you've been able to run 15 fully funded projects. Yes. And it's all not all because, but you had a vision when you started Moor Roa Girls. Yes, yes. But things did not pan out the way that you wanted them to. Instead of losing hope, instead of saying, you know what, I'm not getting this funding. I'm gonna quit this dream. You say, let me take a pause on this dream and get back to it after this number of months or this number of years. Did you always know that you will go back to Moorwa Girls?
SPEAKER_04Yes, actually, when I got the job, they wanted a permanent position, but I told them I'm here for one year. And what I'll the favor I'll do for that one year is I'll train someone to replace me when I'm gone. At first they were hesitant, but then uh I'm very good at what I do working with girls.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So and they really needed someone to work with the project that was dealing with girls at that time. So they agreed to the arrangement of a one-year contract, hoping that I could renew. But when the one year came, now I started talking about going back to Murua Girls. Of course, they tried to hold on to me. Yeah. But we parted in good terms. We still partner together to implement activities to date.
SPEAKER_02And I it's so fascinating to me that you got someone, sometimes it's sheer luck, but you got someone to mentor you. Can you just dive a little bit into what that mentoring meant for you and Muro girls in the long run?
SPEAKER_04First of all, when you are you've started something, you started building a business or an organization or your career, and then you have to press pause. The initial feelings are always disappointment or even hopelessness and despair. But one thing about me is that I bounce back very fast. Any setback I face, I really bounce back. So when I went into Matrast, I didn't go there thinking, but I am a director in my own organization and now here I'm a youth coordinator. I just fit in, bonded with the staff, fit into my role. And they were quick to note that you actually way above this role. So one thing she discovered was that I am good at proposal writing. And that's that was the door to m her mentoring me. Because we'll be working on a proposal together, then she will tag me along to go talk to donors or visit different camps to ask for support. What I didn't disclose during the interview, but now of course they already know, was that I didn't tell them I I founded and I was running an NGO. I omitted that part of my CV just to get the job. So when she later on discovered that, oh, you actually have this organization. She was impressed. I thought it will be a deal breaker and I will be fired for it. But she actually now intentionally mentored me to know how an organization is built. And I kept asking questions. I was curious to know what she's working on. I was curious to know what challenges she was dealing with when working with the team. I was curious to know how she engages donors, her speaking engagements, her research publications. And it's through working with her that I also ended up becoming a researcher.
SPEAKER_03So is that is that a part of the bio that I missed about being a researcher?
SPEAKER_04A friend once called at me saying I don't bring out that part of myself a lot. I don't talk much about my consulting work, which I do on the side running Murua Girls, but I do research for organizations, baseline surveys, needs assessments, monitoring and evaluation. And I'm actually part of the team that developed a paper on the alternative rights of passage that ended up being published by a science direct. So I am a published author.
SPEAKER_01Okay. The pressure just increased.
SPEAKER_03I'm sorry, guys. No, but I think research is actually a really important part of the work, and I hope we will be able to even speak about its contribution to the work that we are doing even way later during this particular conversation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, me for me, it's just again fascinating that I I I had mentioned lack, but this also ref uh puts into perspective that conversation of there is not always luck, it's opportunity meeting, readiness, yes, yeah. Because you're already prepared in like proposal writing, you had already created something that somebody was able to come and enhance, not necessarily start with you, it's just enhancement and ensuring that you're on the right track to using your skill adequately. So it's so fascinating for me. But I would just want to know was there guilt that surrounded that decision to leave Monroe at the time?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, if I can be totally honest and vulnerable, please. I was battling depression during that period in 2018. Because uh, when I left my job, I was working as a programs director for an organization based in the Netherlands, but we were implementing in Kibra. So I'm coming from an international NGO, you know the pay is good, right? Yes, very nice. And then going down all the way to now, no income, no salary, and uh now at crossroads. It's either I get a job or I cannot sustain Muru, I cannot even meet my own bills. So there was that feeling of I think I have failed. And then when I was quitting my international job to go start Murua Girls, I remember someone telling me, so you leave a well-paying NGO job to go start an NGO. Be careful not to become one of the women that will need helping. You think you're going to help women, but you might end up becoming a dependent or a beneficiary. And I think those are the words that were now ringing in my mind when I went back to Matrast for a job. Yeah. I was like, has this prophecy become true? Am I now a beneficiary? But then something in me knew that this is temporary, this is a stepping stone to the next level. And I went through those mental health challenges. I went for therapy. One thing I tell women and girls and everybody that is breathing and alive, just the way you treat malaria, treat your mental health like a disease that needs medical attention.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I did therapy through that year. And by 2019, when I felt I'm okay, now I could come back to start building mural. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. We really and we're really we are so glad to still have you smiling and all. And uh, we really wanted to start this conversation with that particular bit because you know sometimes when someone sees the Cilian of now with the 15 funded, fully funded projects, yeah, there might be an assumption that you have always been on this particular high horse from the beginning, right? And I know that people start foundations and they start organizations with a good intention, right? With the intention of helping. But these are real hurdles where you go for years without funding, but bills still need to be met because passion will not put food on the table. Right? And that it's that not all is lost. If you ever have to take a pause or if you ever have to rethink your path, you have not failed the community or the girls that you are working for, that everything is actually redeemable. If you have, if you're able to step back and think, this is where I am, this is where I'd like to be. But for now, we have to detour at this point. Yeah. And I think Caselian just tried to bring up that there is, and Godano, that there is guilt in the community that you have quote unquote failed. There is guilt in the, and maybe even Shem, I don't know if you'd agree with me, that I had this just like the person who said, you know, you might become one of these women that I think that was very out of pocket. Yes, out of pocket for it. Yeah. So now we want to go just back a bit into Celeyan, being a young girl and where all this work um and dedication to girls came from. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Maybe just before. Did you have a nickname growing up? Yes, but I'm not telling you.
SPEAKER_04I was trying to pull it out. Nobody calls me by that nickname. Anymore? It's only my late dad and my grandma. It I think it it went with them. Oh, okay. Did it was it something attached to your character? No, it's actually a very sweet name that I choose to keep to myself. Okay, okay. At least we know it's a sweet name.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. It's a sweet name. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So maybe yeah, so just tell us a little bit about you um growing up.
SPEAKER_04Well, as an adult, I tell people I'm an introvert, but anyone who knew me as a kid is like, wow, you knew. I was a very talkative, bubbly kid, inquisitive. I would ask questions that will leave adults embarrassed.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_04And then I was very observant also. Uh-huh. So my dad will fondly ask me, What do you want to be when you grow up? I'll be like, one month I want to be a pilot. Then I dis I would read books and discover a new term, and then I want to be that. So I saw something scientist, so I told my dad, I want to be a scientist. And well, truth is I'm a social scientist. So that's when it did come to publications in science, direct, etc. etc. And the closest I'm to piloting, I have flight mode on my phone, so I've been on flight, so that took me a minute to load.
SPEAKER_02I told you guys we are about to have a good time. I would love.
SPEAKER_04But I grew up in a family, you know, the pastoralist community. It's it was just it's a normal family according to me. It's now looking back that I will piece things together and like that was not normal. Yeah. It was not normal. But growing up, nothing seemed out of place. As a young girl, you grow up, you see women in the community dressed beautifully. Girls don't wear those colorful beads until you reach a certain level and then now you can wear them. So I really looked forward to growing up and becoming a woman so that I can also look colorful and beautiful. Went to school, I was privileged to have an education. Both my parents were very passionate about education. My mom is a retired school teacher, and my late dad was a chief. So, first of all, when you know a mother, a teacher as a mother and a chief as a dad, so discipline.
SPEAKER_02You tore the line.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yeah. But for them, education was not optional, it was a must. And both of them really went out of their way, not just to educate us and my siblings, but also to support children in the community. The work I do actually follows on the footsteps of my dad. He really sponsored so many kids. I still meet people today to tell me, you know, I went to school because your dad paid my school fees. Your dad helped me get enrollment into college. So I'm just following in his footsteps and keeping his legacy alive. So my childhood was very colourful. I had a very wild imagination. I was severely punished for it because I would just zone off and go into my own world. I was a tomboy. I would climb trees to escape household chores because why are boys washing dishes? Why am I the only one? So if I want to do it, I'll just go up on a tree with a book and escape into my own small world. And you can't shoot me, guys. And most of the time when I come down, the welcoming will be a good beating. But then I will threaten to go back up. Some days my mom will just be like, because the branch I'm sitting on is giving her a heart attack. It's like it might break and she will fall. So that was my childhood. Mother's love.
SPEAKER_01Did you grow up with a lot of boys?
SPEAKER_04Do you have other brothers? No. On my mom's side, you know, pastorally stay polygamous. So my mom has one son, my stepmom has four. So yes, there were boys all around me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And when you look back at your childhood, as I knew I I know you've said that some of the work that you're currently doing with girls' education is building on the legacy of your dad. Yeah. So you said that you used to be an extrovert. Are you an introvert right now? Yes. What happened?
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_04Well, I know I know what happened. Uh-huh. Something happened to me as a child. Yeah. I went through sexual assault at the age of 10. And that light was dimmed at that point. I didn't notice it. But my dad actually noticed. Yeah. So I just, the girl who was bubbly laughing, I will sit in a corner and be forgotten that I am there. They will serve food and then they will ask, oh no, the nickname. I'm a cooler. And then they'll find me just seated in a corner quietly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Sorry for that. And thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing. Definitely. And um the work that you currently do with the girls, what are some of your earliest memories of wanting to support girls apart from the work that your dad did and your mom did in the community?
SPEAKER_04I think one thing that inspires me to support girls. When I was doing my KCP, I ended up being the only girl and two other boys. So there was three of us. In grade six and seven, we were over twenty. But class eight, only three of us registered for the exams. So one thing I noticed now looking back, because as a kid you don't notice such things, you just think it's normal. But now looking back, I realized the transition rate of children in my primary school was very low back then. And then I remember my best friend could not go to high school with me because she didn't get to grade eight. She got married at grade seven. And now looking back, my I feel like I'm more motivated by those memories, knowing that education could have changed her life. And I still meet with her today. We are now women with kids, older kids, and we are able to connect. But at some point I lost touch with her because now she was married at grade seven. I went to high school for four years. When you come back, she has three kids. I went to college for another four years coming back. She has two more kids. There was no point of us connecting, and it felt like our worlds just split apart. But I'm glad that right now we've reconnected and we can now talk as mothers.
SPEAKER_02You've you've mentioned your best friend quite candidly. Yeah. And I would want to know during those formative years and you're very young, something this traumatic has happened to you. On top of it, FGM has also probably happened, yeah. So it's very traumatic, and you're seeing a lot of your friends. You've lost a lot of friends due to circumstance and you're now going to high school and things like that. How was those teenage years looking like for you, especially in terms of healing and even in terms of just putting uh thought into what is going on? Because you're alone somewhat, quote unquote.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So after experiencing abuse, I mentioned that I became withdrawn.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And so I usually tell people my teenage years were a blah. I really don't have that many memories I can talk about. I just went through the emotions. For me, it was to KCP, go to high school, schools are closed, schools are open, schools are closed again, schools are opened. And I went through FGM when I was in Form 3. At 16 years. The debate is that I later on found out from my dad that he didn't really want me to go through it. But the dilemma was my two older sisters had already gone through it, and my grandmother was insisting that you cannot cut two girls and leave the other two. It's taboo. You just have to finish the process. If you wanted to stop, you would not have done with the older girls. And so he was in a dilemma. And for me, when I went through FGM, it was like it's just another rite of passage, get done with it. I didn't understand the risks or I didn't even think it was good or bad. At that point, I was just numb and just going through going on with life. Yeah, whatever happens, you want to beat me when it chapelized wende. It's one thing that abuse does, whether it happens at childhood or adulthood, it really takes away your humanity. So until a survivor finds healing, they are just a shell walking. So those years were just that for me. It was just, it's another day, okay. Oh you're angry, okay. And even my education was affected. I was a very brilliant girl, but my performance just kept dropping and dropping and dropping because there was nothing big to look forward to.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And um you've mentioned about um survivor. Would you say that in the work around FGM, child marriage and gender-based violence, you identify as a survivor?
SPEAKER_04Yes, I do.
SPEAKER_03And is there something you want to add?
SPEAKER_04I'm smiling because we had a session on women and gender-based violence, and we are being told to take all the forms of violence you've gone through. And I just found myself taking verbal abuse, yes, physical abuse, yes, sexual abuse, yes, emotional abuse, yes, economic abuse, like every kind of abuse.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And um have you have you always been upfront about being an FGM survivor in the work that you do?
SPEAKER_04I speak about the abuses I've survived because silence is the reason why they keep happening.
SPEAKER_00That's true.
SPEAKER_04As being quiet about rape and child sexual abuse, as being quiet about economic abuse, as being quiet about I even learned that there is another form of abuse called spiritual abuse. What is that about? Yeah, yeah, I know. Do you want to do it? It's the abuse that happens in religious context. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I feel like I had a bit of a different definition of what it is, but I think that's definitely witchcraft. No, I didn't think witchcraft. I thought um, I thought spiritual abuse is if you're like a Christian, if you identify with Christian beliefs, and then you get together with someone who's more different. Yes, and they and they manipulate you or gas fight you.
SPEAKER_04Even just the religious intolerance where you abuse someone because they have a different religion, it falls under that context of spiritual abuse. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I I think I asked that question about survivors because I know before uh especially FGM survivors started being celebrated, I know a big number of them who are already doing their work would not upfront say that they are a survivor of FGM because of the backlash that they would get from the community with the community asking questions such as if you you were cut, why would you want our girls not to be cut? Is that something that either you have gone through or you've had other founder survivors speaking about?
SPEAKER_04Well, I'll speak about survivors not being willing to come out, then I'll answer your question about FGM. I think the reason why most survivors stay silent is that the shame of whatever they survived is put on them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I always want to emphasize and I want to tell every survivor out there do not take responsibility of what happened to you. Let that responsibility rest with the perpetrator. Give the shame back to the person who abused you. Because you carry the pain of the abuse and then you carry the shame of the abuse that was done to you. Yeah. So on the issue of FGM, yes, every time I talk to mothers about not cutting their daughters, of course, the first question will be, but you are cut. Yes. You are cut, you are educated, you're beautiful. You you are your life is driving, so why are you why are you talking to us about not children? Yeah, not cut, not cutting your younger sisters.
SPEAKER_03And how do you navigate that conversation?
SPEAKER_04So I always, when we talk about FGM, I focus on two issues. Because again, there is a danger of addressing a single issue. And FGM has been branded around the health, the health effects of FGM, which is okay to bring it out because some women are really suffering because of the effects that came with going through FGM. But then we always forget the socioeconomic impact of FGM. So I focus on both. I tell them FGM is not just a violation of a girl's rights. It has long, lifelong health complications. But even as communities practicing FGM, we need to start taking into account the socioeconomic impact of FGM. Because we cut our girls. When you cut a girl, because of the traumatic experience, it affects her education, affecting her performance, affecting her transition. And some girls are not fortunate enough to go back to school once they are cut. They end up being married. So the whole productive cycle of that girl has been cut short. But talking about survivors of FGM, you do not perform at your optimum. You really don't give life your best. There is the trauma, trauma takes something out of you. And FGM, going through FGM, no matter the type of cut, is a traumatic experience that lives with you. And so the socioeconomic impact of that is that women's leadership potentially is muted. You could be a very brilliant leader, you could be a very creative person, but because it also affects your self-esteem and your body image, it limits how far you can go in leadership, it limits how far you can go in entrepreneurship. So we just have an average life. And that is the socioeconomic impact that we've not really talked a lot about enough when we're addressing FGM. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think I I really like the the inclusion of it's not just the health effects that that are and in and I know a lot of messaging around FGM is on the fee, it's on the health effects of FGM. And recently we were in a conference and it was uh menstrual, menstrual health, the economics of menstrual health, right? And this was the exact same thinking that it's not just about girls missing school, it's about what happens five years from now because girls missed schools or girls had to access paths in a way that is not proper, right? So I really like bringing in the social because a lot of times health is um is we turn a blind eye on health because you know it's an individual thing. You're the only one who will feel pain during birth. You know, it's not it's not very out there. And really bringing in the social, uh, the economic impact of FGM, I think is really, really um a great perspective to share with parents. And I think that's something that really truly resonates with them, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Mine is you've mentioned the social impact, your personal story about being a survivor leader and how that was. Mine would be um is for the people out there, because a lot of times people are like, why is FGM really survivor-centered? Why is it that survivor leadership is essential? Because to me, that is such an essential part and component of ensuring that we get to zero.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think survival leadership should be the center of addressing or even the conversation to end FGM. And for two reasons. Number one, when survivors speak out about their experiences, they are able to show the real picture. So that we stop romanticizing FGM as a rite of passage that girls go through to become women. First of all, a girl doesn't need to be cut to become a woman. That is a biological process. We are not in charge of it. Who put you in charge? Yeah, who put you in charge of that process. So just letting survivors speak so that the experiences come out. Because women have been suffering in silence, dealing with effects of FGM in silence. And when they speak up, then they are met with shame. The second reason is as a mother who is a survivor of FGM, mothers who have undergone FGM are more likely to put their daughters through it as well. And so if we don't bring these women into the conversation, and they already believe that there are benefits to FGM, or they believe that FGM is what they can do to the best interest of their child. Because I'll speak for mothers when I say this. I don't think mothers put their daughters through FGM as a form of punishment or torture. And this is to detach it from the negative connotations of it's a barbaric act, it's a backward practice, it's primitive. Just to remove the shame that has been labeled on communities practicing FGM. Mothers put their daughters through FGM because they are preparing them for the best outcome of life. And so it's very important to have them in this conversation so that they know that there are other ways you can prepare your daughter to have the best in life without having to mutilate her. So leaving survivors out of the conversation, then who is speaking about FGM if not the survivors? Yeah, and what business do they have talking about an experience they have not gone through?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And I think thank you so much for bringing out the uh the conversation around mothers taking their daughters through FGM. Because I know there is currently the ongoing campaign around the My Dear Daughter campaign, which is basically an anti-FGM campaign run by the anti-FGM board in collaboration and partnership with multiple grassroots organizations and other independent organizations, where basically it's bringing mothers together so that mothers can have these conversations about saving their daughters. Where we say that as much as men inherently have been labeled as the gatekeepers, that mothers also have a lot of power when it comes to protecting their girls. And I know it's a question that keeps coming up of if a woman went through FGM and she has seen the grave consequences of FGM, why would she be taking her daughter through it? And I think you've really answered it really well. And I would also just want to add that when we don't have spaces for mothers, right? You continue just going through the effects of FGM on your own. Yeah. How would you ever know it's an actual effect of FGM without having these spaces where we are open and we are having these conversations and we are coming to the realization because that's that's the thing about abuse, right? A lot of times when you're in abuse, you don't know. You don't even know you're being abused until you're out of the situation and you're like, what was that?
SPEAKER_02How did this happen?
SPEAKER_03Yes, what was that about? And also the issue about who best to talk about the conversation than survivors, because I know one of the things that is usually spoken around FGM is that women who have gone through FGM do not enjoy sex. And survivors say okay, we hear where you're coming from, but is that entirely true?
SPEAKER_04Yes, I think but you see what such statements do, now that is doing harm. Because when you throw out a blanket statement like that, yes, you end up leaving women already you you have your own bodily issues, but add a statement like that on top, and then you even now feel terrible about your body. Yeah, yeah. So I know I don't like how my face looks or but then at the back of your mind you hear women who have gone through FGM cannot enjoy sex. So it's another label of shame that has just been added on a survivor, yeah, which is very unfortunate.
SPEAKER_02And just to bring you back to your point on survivor leadership, yeah, I just want to ask you another piggyback question is where is the role of partners, uh, allies, people within the space, where is their role in? And how do you, as Tilian, think where where where can they come in without taking ownership from survival leaders?
SPEAKER_04I think I would like to first of all appreciate people who spoke up about FGM because if someone from the outside the practicing community did not notice that there's something not okay with the anatomy of women from different communities, we would have never known that FGM was wrong.
SPEAKER_02Actually true. Yeah, very true.
SPEAKER_04And the people, the academician who took it upon themselves to study the effects of FGM so that we understand that it has all these health effects. And the people who took up the stage to speak about it, starting the conversation is okay. But when you start, then don't hold the space. Open it up for people with lived experiences to plug in. Because I feel like one mistake we made with the anti-FGM campaign was that the fact that it wasn't survival-led, and then it was mostly, for lack of a better word, I'll just use outsiders, coming into a practicing community and telling them what you're doing is wrong is barbaric, is backwards. And there was a lot of hostility even from the activist side when they were screaming about FGM. And I feel like if the conversation was brought back and the communities were told we noted that there is a practice here that is being carried out, and these are the effects. Without the attack on the cultural identity and autonomy of the people, I feel like we would have ended this practice a long time ago. And one of the things that motivated Zeleyan to come into the Space first of all confession time sisters.
SPEAKER_01Oh, really? What yeah? What I need you to look at that camera silly and then tell us that I think it has to be.
SPEAKER_04I was pro-FGM. What changed your mind? What how I remember it was we were in high school and then we were called into the hall. And then this lady comes, she's now my member of Parliament, Agnes Barello. She's my namesake also. I'm not bragging, just saying. Yes. So she comes to school and with the models of a woman's anatomy showing us how a cut woman and an uncut woman would look. At that point, I had already gone through FGM. So the reaction is what really made me defend FGM. I remember some of the girls from my community walking out of that conversation really angry. And then girls from non-cutting communities were like, What the hell? Am I allowed to cuss? Yes, you are. What is that? Why would anyone do that? And so now because having that conversation, I found myself defending FGM, telling them, my grandmother has gone through it, she's still alive, my mom has gone through it, she's had all of us, she's not even gone through CS. Because the focus again was on the health effects. And one thing about focusing on just the health effects of FGM, it feels like it's a lie. Because if you tell me I'll have difficulty in childbirth, I'm a mother of two, I've not seen any difficulty. What are you saying? Yes. So I was defending it because from my experience, everything they were saying about FGM was a lie. I didn't die, I didn't overbleed and die. Obviously, I'm talking about it.
SPEAKER_02Also, that vilifying factor of making your community something that, especially at that age, is very close to your heart because it's one of the only things that you've known all through your life. And then someone coming and vilifying it and making it seem like the worst thing on earth. Yeah. And you're like, what do you mean? What do you mean? Because at that point, you're not rationally thinking in terms of you're just thinking about atimumetweetage. Yes.
SPEAKER_04The term barbaric really triggers me to date.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That it's a backward barbaric practice. Practice. And now I'm quick to and slow to judge when a community is described as barbaric. I am not quick to accept that as a fact. I want to understand where they are coming from, what is their motivation. So you asked what the turning point was. Yes. When I started Murwa Girls, I was not focusing on NFGM really. My focus was education. And then now it was during my asking question, when did so and so drop out of school? They're like, oh, she got pregnant and dropped out of school. But then I would ask, when did she get pregnant? And the answer is always more like, oh, you know, after she was cut, a few months later she got pregnant and then she dropped out of school. So I had a direct link between FGM and early pregnancy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And the other thing, because as I said, I'm a researcher, when we talk to schools evaluating students' performance, girls' performance will be great, great, great, great until a certain grade and the performance starts going down. So I would ask, what happened to this girl? At what age did girls start performing poorly? And then I could directly link that again to FGM. After a girl is cut, there's something that changes in their focus and concentration in school. And also they become more distracted because girls are cut at the age of from between the age of 9 to 15 years. At that time, again, community believes that when a girl, my community specifically, when a girl is cut now she's a woman. It doesn't matter whether she's nine or fifteen. As long as she's gone through FGM, now she's a woman. And so even the men who initially saw her as a child will now start talking to and addressing to her as a woman. So this girl becomes distracted. And it's at that point that I realized if I want to promote girls' education, then I have to address FGM as one of the barriers to girls' education.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, which is so sad. Yeah, which is so I'm I'm on her side now, guys. I'm back.
SPEAKER_04You're back to the dead so that I know you're not going to beat me after this podcast.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and and um two things, right? Number one, yeah, the idea about just back to the idea about framing FGM, just mainly around health issues, is a problem. Yeah. Because I bet you not, when you go to the community and say, stop FGM, because if you continue performing FGM on girls, they will die. And the community will ask you, who died? We are here. We are here. Whomst died? So that already drains your whole argument down the drain. Number two, and I'm guilty of this, and I don't know how this happens, right? So you know sometimes when we go, for example, to schools, we go to schools in counties that uh practice FGM. Yeah. And we sit in, we bring girls together and we say, Today we have come to speak about FGM. Most of the time when we lead the conversation, we demonize FGM. And that does something to the girls who have been cut because we have girls in that same crowd who have already gone through FGM. What is a proper way to go about this particular conversation when you're trying to create awareness around FGM and create urgency without demonizing it and making the girls who have already gone through it feel some type of way?
SPEAKER_04Well, I think now that you've spoken about demonizing FGM, I want just to go back to how the conversation was introduced with a lot of harm. There were films of FGM that were recorded. I see the cameraman looking at me. I'm not going to throw my shoes at you, I promise. So somebody walked into a room with a camera and recorded a child going through FGM. That thing really angers me to date. And there were several films that were put online, and the name was we want to raise awareness on this barbaric practice. So that's how the conversation came to the limelight.
SPEAKER_02Like you filmed, you filmed a harmful practice happening.
SPEAKER_03So that you can use it to think it's very important that we continue creating awareness about some of the ways or ways that we are doing FGM advocacy and FGM campaigns that are not really helpful, but they're just driving the harm. You're doing more harm, yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So now those are the videos that were brought to raise awareness. And I remember sitting through an FGM session, Moon Pension, the organization, and the first thing they did I was with men and women. It was uh an intergenerational setup. And the first thing they did was play the film of a two-year-old girl from Mali undergoing the cut. And you can imagine how messed up that room was. People were throwing up, people were fainting. And I I sat down and asked the facilitator who thought this was a good idea to traumatize people and shock them in the name of raising awareness. At that point, I was still a student, social work student, so I was there actually just taking minutes and writing a report on the activity. It's from that experience that I decided, yes, you've said FGM has all these health effects. I was also still too young to understand the socioeconomic effect like I do right now. So I wanted to join the conversation and look for a better way. Because it hurt me to see a grown man crying. You know, they are a community, even me crying is a problem. Yeah. Let alone watching a grown man cry because of something that was shown to them. And so the far my first reaction was, this is wrong. We cannot be traumatizing. It's a form of abuse in itself, emotional abuse, to bring such a film to show the participants.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And then I'm thinking about this little girl. A grown-up recorded a girl being mutilated. You didn't stop it. Yeah. You've not even covered her face or anything. It's old identities out there.
SPEAKER_02Why would you be filming instead of protecting this child? It really shows also one way it's really bad, but also it really shows the kind of steps we've made forward in ensuring that one, to do no harm. Yes. And two, protecting. I do not like using the word beneficiary, protecting the rights holders.
SPEAKER_01The rights holders, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And just ensuring that they are good. And it's really reminded me of a topic that Val really loves. I don't know why she's not mentioning the language that we use, especially when we are talking about FGM and like FGM programming. It's commendable that you saw that and you and you still supported to add FGM because I think that would have really altered my brain chemistry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I know I know Godeno has mentioned about the do-no-harm. We do now right now. We have the do-no-harm and we have safeguarding, which has really um even helped survivors to even come forward, these all these safe spaces. Um, I know that you've been part of um uh survivor leadership training, right? And I know it's been a number of years ever since it happened. What would you say is the importance of having a lot more of these fellowships for survivors going forward? Would you say it's a program that worked? Would it be something that you would recommend, especially for women who are survivors and they want to come into the space, either as activists or as founders? Is it a fellowship or a concept that actually works? Because I know there's a lot of healing through that happens inside that kind of fellowship.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think one of my encounters now of a safe space where I could openly talk about being a survivor was when I was appointed as an end-fgm ambassador. Funny enough, I was still not talking about FGM. But because I was talking about education and mentioning FGM as one of the key barriers to girls' education, I was appointed as an ambassador. And in that forum, we had other survivors and non-survivors who were allies. And we we just had a session of mental health and wellness talking about survivors finding healing and also redefining their identity. That forum really changed my life because after that now I started holding dialogues on NFGM, I started doing workshops, training youths, and I realized that I can actually add FGM programming into my work so that we can intentionally talk about ending FGM. FGM comes out as a very sensitive topic. So most organizations who actually say they are doing NFGM work are not doing the actual work because it feels it's overwhelming to start. It's hard. Yeah, it's a hard conversation to have. And then you cannot see change immediately. Like you will take a girl to school, they graduate, and you've seen change. FGM is a conversation you've been having now. For me, it's now 15 years just talking about end FGM. And I can confidently say that even in my village, I've not seen a hundred percent eradication of FGM. It's still happening. And so having survivors come to the platform and first of all, just finding healing. I mentioned in another conversation that I was an angry activist. Yes. You know the kind that want to burn down villages? That was me. Yeah. Yeah, that was me. I was full of anger and I didn't understand the anger until I came into these survivor forums where we just get to talk, cry it out, hug each other. Yeah. So most of our sessions were just Soviets are going round because and I realized there was so much unreleased emotions, and then doing the work and seeing more girls suffering, it just now translated into anger. So I will just blow up at any slight provocation. So these forums are very important to answer your question. Yeah, they are very important, they're actually central to the work that these women and girls and young women want to do in the community. I don't think anyone can do this work without a support system. Yeah. And the survivor networks now become the support system that we get. And if you can't find any network of survivors, please create one. There'll always be women and young girls who want to join it. So if you can't find it in your community, then be the one to start it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because I know at the beginning you mentioned that healing has been a really great part of your current journey, and that you would suggest to a lot of the people who are coming into the space to find uh mental health support just the same way you treat malaria, is the same way that you need to treat your treat your mental health. And you're a founder, right? Yeah, and there's a lot of glamour around being an executive director. I'm a founder. Is it all glamour?
SPEAKER_04Well, the glamour is the tip of the eyes. All you see is me dressed up nicely, glammed up by this girl sitting in front of a camera and talking about my work. Let me tell you what you don't see. You don't see the midnight panic attacks. You don't see the morning tears when you wake up in the morning and there is no funding. There are girls that need to be rescued. There are some that are in the education program that you need to pay school fees for. There is a team seated confidently in an office knowing that end month, the salary is coming. But you're looking at your bank statement and the balance is one thousand shillings when you are lucky to have that as your balance. So I know entrepreneurship and leadership, people who have founded organizational businesses are celebrated when they have made it. When I say we've implemented 15 fully funded projects, I have not talked about the 20 others that we just had to bury because we couldn't find funding. I've not talked about when those projects are coming cycles, the in-between when one project ended and the next one is yet to be funded and we have to close shop. I may have left Murua Girls for a year, but we've closed our office at least three or four times. Where we just I pack up our office furniture, take it to my house, give the landlord the keys to the office, and we wait until we get the next grant. So those are the realities of running an organization. Sometimes you are running on zero. Some of the founders I know, including myself, have worked for years without a salary. Like January to December, you've done the work, you're exhausted, you're tired. We've survived through workshops. So please call us for workshops. Just invite any founders you know for workshops and pay them per DM because that's how we've survived some days. It's not as glamorous as it looks. And I have had moments where I feel like I'm shutting this thing down. But when I remember then again that it's not just me. I'm not just shutting down on myself. There is a team I've employed. There are girls that are depending on this program. There are communities that are looking forward to us to train them and to equip them with skills. You just have to cry when you can't cry anymore. You wake up, you eat, you shower, and you go to work. And you continue.
SPEAKER_03And you know, one thing one thing I had never really actually thought about is the fact that you actually have to pay people. So my first job after my internship was in a youth-led organization. And um it's been around four years, so I know they have even grown even more.
SPEAKER_01I just never sat down and thought that my executive director be getting panic attacks in the middle of the night because she can't pay me at the end of the month.
SPEAKER_03And all I always just thought about when is end month getting here so that I can get paid. You know, so yeah, I think um those are some of the realities of founding um organizations and truly, truly conversations that we are particularly very key in bringing out in this particular podcast because we know there's thousands of women who are looking to start organizations have started, are stuck, they don't know what should really be guiding them. So it's really important to bring out that it's not just glamour. Yeah, manze kunamasiku, atas are easy with those all those funded projects. There are days where I found myself wanting to give up. It's not a straight line. It does get better, I bet, but it takes it's how I hope you have gotten better.
SPEAKER_04Let me tell you one thing about entrepreneurship or founding an initiative, whether it's for profit or non-profit. It it doesn't, it's not starting. So you start with one project, all you need to raise is 1.5 million and you're good for that year. Then you you keep scaling. So there is a day you are crying because you didn't have 1.5 million Kenya shillings, then there is a level you're crying because you need a million dollars. So it it doesn't stakes become hard. Yeah, the stakes keep and the goalposts keep shifting.
SPEAKER_02You're trying to again uh expand, you're trying to add more counties, support more girls, bring more girls to school, provide shelter for some of these girls that do not have, yeah? Yeah. And I know you've you've really you've really given us a laugh to say that you the goalpost keeps shifting. But the one thing that also keeps shifting is the financing within the space, especially the development space, yeah. How how is it to you as a founder? What what if you were in a perfect scenario and you're seated with donors, maybe me and Val are now donors.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because you must sit up, right?
SPEAKER_02We need a workshop. So that uh so for example, if you it's uh it's donors you're seated with or partners, you're seated with, where would you want this financing, like how would you want this financing to look like for it to adequately support you as a lead as a survivor leader? Okay, but just really as a leader and as a founder, how is it that you're able to because sometimes, and you can attest to this, at least I have managed programs, so I know that you can be given 10 shillings to do so much, but it's still 10 shillings. Yeah, you can't do but they want to see social media, they want to see you going to uh the in most interior parts of the community. So, how is it how how do you think that that will look like for you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So as I've grown in this field, I've discovered funding, different types of funding, too, to be exact. There is project funding and then there is flexible funding. When I say we've implemented 15 fully funded projects, that is project funding. So let me explain for a young founder who's just coming up. When you get project funding, that money is meant to be spent on the project activities. So, for example, it's an education project, you're sponsoring girls, you'll use that money to pay school fees. If you're doing school outreach, you use that money for transport to the schools, and maybe you'll pay the facilitators. project funding does not fund is your organization development which is and in order to donors you need an established organization organization structure with 15 20 policies that I don't know who wrote you need hey data protection attack registry hey hey and then building up systems yeah in order to build systems you need funding but project funding does not build your systems yeah some donors noted that gap and when they fund your project they try to build your organization capacity through training the founder and staff on different skills so that they can build the systems but my favorite donor the one that currently has my heart is the one that gives you flexible funding yeah because what flexible funding does it builds the organization systems it helps organizations build financial reserves another word I'm recently coming into I was told organizations have reserves I'm like how how do you build a reserve because all I've known all these years was project funding with project funding you cannot build reserve a financial reserve yeah so flexible funding now build organization project funding address a short-term project but flexible funding builds long-term sustainability for organizations yeah so if flexible funding helps you not to have a panic attack at night actually if I had three flexible funding I will sleep soundly until morning at least you'll sleep and you'll be able to wake up have a cup of coffee near your window yeah like have these slow mornings Instagrammers show us you'll be able to experience the sick last moon cookie pigana vita yes you have money to send someone to the field but you don't have money for their salary at the end of the month. So that is project funding. Yeah that is project funding so I will if I was speaking to donors I will ask them if you want to fund an organization you can give them flexible funding but if you want a specific outcome then attach it to a I have a donor who's funding us it's flexible funding but they are passionate about climate change so we've attached it to one project so a percentage of that grant goes towards climate change programming and that is what has kept us going for the last three years because they've been with us for three years. So we can clock it for them.
SPEAKER_02Yes but also that that really just shows that for any donors that are watching or any development partners that are within the donor space or can influence financing especially grassroots organizations need this flexible funding to be able to at the end of the day once a donor leaves they're able to still sustain projects because once projects end these girls remain with us in the community they still face us every morning and they still need those these resources to continue going up until a certain point so that they are able to also return to the community and give some feedback.
SPEAKER_03Yeah yeah yeah and I think that's a very important sentiment I know these these are gonna be young founders who are really going to learn a lot from this and as we wrap up um we always have a punchline question for all our guests what gives you hope in this work that you do what gives me hope yeah right now seated in this room is just watching these two young ladies who have come into the space and taken it a notch higher with the use of technology.
SPEAKER_04So what gives me hope is knowing that the work is not ending with me.
SPEAKER_03There are people coming behind me that are taking it up and I am intentionally consistently and consciously mentoring the next generation of leaders intentionally consistently and consciously and consciously guys absolutely nothing can beat the end of any other episode like that I think can we can we patent that and we finish all our episodes like that you can't thank you guys so much for tuning in thank you so much Sillian for coming in and sharing your story openly funny and adding to the information and in the intelligence that is outside in the world especially when it comes to FGM for standing very strong on some of your concepts and I know it's going to rub up a few people wrongly but I think it's very important that we have those conversations thank you so much for tuning in thank you thank you Sele for literally everything Val has said guys please watch the episode I hope you enjoy this episode our guest please follow her on social media I think we'll leave her links on the bio um just to her LinkedIn her Instagram she's an Instagram and a TikToker guys please go follow her yes and as you've heard Cilian is very big on mentorship so if you're a young founder and her story truly resonates with you we hope that you get to connect with her on social media and she is going to offer you any type of guidance I'm sorry I've just plugged her without asking her but she said she's a girl's girl so I'm going to go with that yeah yeah thank you have a good a good one see you on the next bye