Beneath the Water
Beneath the Water is a leadership podcast hosted by Diane Doersch, a longtime education technology leader, former district technology executive, and community builder who is now in her "rewirement."
In each episode, Diane sits down with education technology leaders for the kind of conversation we do not hear often enough. These are not polished success stories or quick leadership tips. They are honest conversations about what is happening beneath the surface: the moments that shaped her guests, the challenges they had to work through, the lessons they carry, and the parts of leadership that are not always visible from the outside.
This podcast is for leaders who want to feel seen in their work and reminded that they are not alone.
Beneath the Water
Amy Jaeckel | Beneath the Water
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Diane is joined by her Green Bay Area School District CTIO successor, Amy Jaeckel. They reminisce over Amy's first interview and how Diane came to know her as her own leader.
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With Amy Sturks of Green Bay Area Public Schools. Could you tell me?
SPEAKER_00I do that, Diane, all the time. I introduce myself. I go, Oh, hey, I'm I'm Amy Sturx, and the team will go.
SPEAKER_01We're keeping this in. Hi, it's me, your teacher-turned CTIO friend, Diane Dirsch. And this is Beneath the Water. It's your friend Diane Dirsch from Beneath the Water Podcast. And I want to introduce this next episode of our podcast and just let you know that this was one of the very early podcasts that we've done. You've seen and heard a lot of well put together podcasts by us, and that's because they were toward the end of our recording season. But this was one of the first ones where maybe we didn't have the best light. We did have good audio, in my opinion, because we had our audio engineer present, my son-in-law Brock. And Deanna was doing a great job of producing this as well. But uh it's an early, it's an early episode. And so I wanted to let you know that this conversation highlights a discussion that uh I had with Amy Jaequel. And if you know Amy Jaekel, uh, she is a person who is now sitting in the seat I sat in at Green Bay Area Public Schools as the leader of the Department of Technology. So her official title is Executive Director of Technology and Information for Green Bay Area Public Schools. Now, in the past uh and in and currently, she has served as co-chair of Women in Technology, the Wit for Girls pillar. She is also a founding board member of Wisconsin CIO. And what is interesting about that is Wisconsin CIO is cross-sector. So it's not just ed tech. If you can make it in ed tech, she's also been recognized for making it in technology as well within the state of Wisconsin. She is also served as a chair and now serves as, I do believe, a member, a board member at large for the Wisconsin Education Technology Leaders Association, which is the Wisconsin chapter of COSIN, the Consortium for School Networking, which is a professional association for CTOs and ed tech school leaders throughout the United States and the world. What I want you to know about this is that Amy was a classroom teacher, and I first met her when we interviewed her to be a technology integrator in Green Bay. And what is so cool is through the years that we worked together, she rose in leadership within our Department of Technology. I uh retired for the first time and left Green Bay Area Public Schools. She continued to grow her career. She became director of technology in Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin, and then came back to Green Bay and took the executive director position. Uh and it is so neat to see her now evolved as her own leader. You know, she's someone who I led early on, and now she is one of the premier leaders here in Wisconsin in the ed tech field. And so her growth has been tremendous, and the stories that she has to tell are great stories about her leadership journey that I think you're gonna want to hang around and listen to. So thanks for joining us. And next you'll have that discussion between me and Amy. Okay, Diane, time to evolve. I'm here with Amy Jacyl from Green Bay Area Public Schools. Can you tell me about your position?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I am the executive director of technology and information for the school district. So we serve um roughly 18,000 students across roughly 40 campuses. Um and then prior to I was a classroom teacher, shifted into coaching, shifted into leadership, and here I am.
SPEAKER_01And here you are. I love it. And since this podcast is about leadership, I always love to talk about like how I met people. And I recall I had just gotten my job as chief technology and information officer for Green Bay, and I knew I needed to put together a technology team. We had four people. Four people was not enough. And so I recall we put out you know the job description out to our Green Bay teachers first, and you were one who applied. And I recall when I interviewed you, I picked up that this person really knows systems. Were you an ESL teacher before this? Is that what I was, yep.
SPEAKER_00I taught um three sections of math and then reading and writing at a middle school.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so yeah, it you had a diverse background as well. Um, and then when you were hired, I recall saying, wow, you know, you were always um you cared about continuous improvement. Like if you saw something that that didn't work so well, you would bring it up, right? And and and I love the part about you had a fix to it too. You just wouldn't bring it up and let it there. You'd like, and I've been thinking about this, and this is what I'm thinking might be a possibility. So that that's how that's what I remember of you early on. And I thought, man, this person's gonna go far.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I remember the, well, I don't remember the interview explicitly, but after the interview, I remember being outside at my parents' house and really having that conversation of, okay, I went to school to be a teacher. I've been teaching for only four years at the time, right? It was a very short stint of of classroom experience, but I I loved it. Uh, middle school, those like it takes a special person to be in middle school, right?
SPEAKER_01You are right.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I I was really liking what I was doing, but I was ready for something else.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00And just having that conversation. I remember my dad being there specifically, being like, okay, should I, shouldn't I? Um, what do you think? Um, and yeah, obviously I I said yes to the opportunity, and it was a good, it was a good choice. What do you what do you think caused you to say yes to that? Um I think being able to impact other teachers at a broader scale, right? Because I was already my first year teaching. Um, I was being sent, it was a little outside of Green Bay, but I was being sent back to Green Bay to learn smart technologies at the time and then bring that back to the district. So I was in this integration role prior to. And then when I shifted to Green Bay, I was finding the same things were happening, right? I was being called upon to have um, you know, administration walk through my classroom to see how I was using technology in education and what that looked like. So the the ability to impact a larger scale, I think brought me like really intrigued me into the job.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And, you know, that makes me think of too when I was a fourth grade teacher and Nina, my principal said to me, Have you ever thought about being a principal? And I thought, oh no, I haven't. I love teaching. And this was after 10 years, probably. Um, but he said you would have an opportunity to impact more people that way. And I think that did stick in my mind too. It's like, hmm, you're right. You know, if I'm doing great things in this classroom with these 30 kids, what could I do with, you know, more adults that that I could help lead? And then they make a difference in the classroom. So good for you for seeing that. I like I said, it took me a while, um, you know, to see that part. And clearly you had the talent to do that. Wow. Um, the part about leadership, and you and I have done presentations on leadership already, but what do you want people to remember you for regarding being a leader?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think about leaders in my past, you know, such as yourself that I remember, and um having opportunities or being given opportunities, I'm hopeful, is something that I'm remembered for. Uh above and beyond just like being a good human being, right? Like I want people to think, well, I could trust in her. We could be honest with one another. Um she was she was a good person, right? Yes. On top of, you know, specifically providing opportunities for others to shift into leadership roles or to expand their leadership roles, um, potentially like growing into positions, right? Where they may have to leave the district or or leave what they're doing now. Um, but knowing that like our paths will always cross and that that would be something where they could be like, you know, Amy really helped me with that, or she really provided me an opportunity or helped me to reflect uh to grow my own skill.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I I like that part about the reflection and growing that part as well. Because again, you know, like when I've interviewed people and I say, give me an example of your leadership. Sometimes people say, Well, my principal asked me to do this extra thing, and so I did it. And it's like, well, I don't think that's leadership. That just means you do your work really well, right? But that ability to inspire and to impact and to push forward, or at least, like you talk about, put stepping stones out in front of people, I think is helpful. Um, what in your past had caused you to think about the stepping stones and your your path to leadership?
SPEAKER_00Um, well, we had the opportunity to present together this morning, right? And I told a story about how I was little and um I wanted to be a classroom teacher. Now, I don't, I mean, I must have really been small because they're young. Um and I remember playing like house and playing school, playing pretend, right? But it was after this environment was set up for me. But my parents saw something because my dad went out and got a chalkboard from I'm not sure where, and framed it, gave me a little ledge for my chalk, right? Hung it on the wall in the basement. And then um they purchased, I think from like an auction from a school, one of the old metal desks where the tap would like slam down if you didn't get your fingers out of there. Um and I would put stuffed animals in there and be down in the basement, you know, doing math problems on the chalkboard.
SPEAKER_01Were you in school at that time?
SPEAKER_00So you knew what school looked like stuff in like second, third grade. Okay. Because then when fifth grade came around, um my one of my really good friends was struggling in math, and we would come down to my basement and do like tutoring sessions. And the teacher somehow found out about that because there was um like extra credit points given for for the efforts on on my friend's behalf to like continue to learn, right? Um, so it's a little ironic that I then later became a math teacher. Yeah, right. Because that's what I was doing down in the basement, you know, right? Yeah. Also now I'm in a real classroom. Um, but I think people saw, saw, provided, gave opportunities, right? And um even in grade school, I remember thinking things like, well, we could do, we could do this project or we should like write pen pals to the the people in the nursing home. Um, and then also I was like, Well, do you think we could go, could we go to the nursing home and visit the nursing, you know, can we walk there? Um, and I remember asking questions like that. And before you knew it, stuff like this was happening, right? So I think all throughout my career, K-8, I had teachers that were seeing something or were just saying yes to or empowered you, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes. I mean, you had these creative ideas, and somehow you were able to sell that then, right? Somehow teachers. Yes. And and then um they said, Yes, let's do that. Yes. Which probably emboldened you more, right? To do more of that.
SPEAKER_00That could be, right? So I don't know. So maybe that that evolved just into the workforce. And um I started working at the age of 15. I I said, Hey, dad, you know, I'm almost gonna be 16. I want a job and or I want a car. And he said, That's that's great. You should get yourself a job to pay for that car, right? Um, and I had to think of a place that I could get to close by without a car.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um and I found myself walking to the local grocery store that is no longer around. So it's a more of a mom and pop type store. Um, and there too, it was okay, I'm ready for something more. Like, okay, I'm I'm checking out groceries, I'm bagging things, things, okay, it's all good. Um, but how can I move up further? So then I would find myself working at the service desk, right? At the age of 15, 16, I'm learning what lotto tickets are, and people were coming in to write out their bills and you know, having to do cashiers checks, all these things that sure at the age of 15, I didn't, you know, didn't know what that was. Um, but again, there was somebody there to say, well, you you can handle this. You can learn what this adulting thing is like at the age of 15, right? Wow. Um Yeah. So I think all along my my path up to this point, there has just always somebody to say, Yep, we'll let you take a crack at that.
SPEAKER_01Let's see what happens. Well, and I think I saw that in you as well. The way you would bring things forward, like you did to your teachers or at the grocery store and have some ideas and some solutions on that. And so, you know, when time came where we were looking for a leader to lead the the technology integrators, we did an interview and we asked, you know, who of you technology integrators would like to be a leader of this group? And you were one person who said, Yes, I would like to do that. Were you searching then at that time for again um moving up or is it just a natural progression for you?
SPEAKER_00I think so, right? Um I think I was looking to move up. Um, I remember you saying to me, like, you gotta slow down, you gotta season yourself a little bit, right? Because I think I was looking for change to move maybe faster than um experience was giving me knowledge to move. Um, so I do think it was natural progression. Um I also think, right, you saw a need for the team. Yes, yes. So it would it was beneficial to the the team and the district too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that part about you guys slow down. Maybe what happened is I saw a bit of you in me because when I was in my elementary school, I remember um as a teacher when I was teaching early on, I was that kind of that, you know, teacher doing all the stuff and the seasoned teachers going, what the heck is she doing? Right. And so I recall getting that talk from my principal as well. Sometimes, Diane, you just need to sit back and listen to what's already happened first before you move forward. Yes, and that ended up being really good advice. So I'm glad I could share that with you. I don't know if it made a difference or not, but you know, hopefully you'll you'll share that with you know your next people too, because there's nothing wrong with being ambitious and for looking for opportunities. But yeah, you're right that um, you know, sometimes you just need to slow down to go fast. Like to learn the history, yeah, right? You gotta learn the history, learn the environment. Yes, moving the cheese when you change processes and all that, you have to have a good rationale for that as well. So yeah, that that was definitely something. Wow. Well, what other um leadership pieces of advice or tidbits do you have um for our future leaders?
SPEAKER_00You know, I learned from one of our librarians. I I'm not sure the the topic of our conversation, but she said to me, Amy, you need to assume the best in people. That's right. Right? Like we don't have um staff members or students. They don't come to to to work or to school to say, I'm gonna do this thing just to really make that person have a bad day today. Yeah, or be a jerk. My whole goal is to be a jerk. You're right. They don't do that. Right? Like you have to have the the assumption that people are coming in for good purpose. So um that is something that has stuck with me from my integrator years of you have to assume the best in people. So when people are asking for help or they're asking a question, they're not coming from a place of trying to be a pain, but having the viewpoint of you know, true curiosity or or what is the question behind the question. Um just to make a positive environment for those around you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, that part about the asking questions that reminds me of um, I love researchers dearly because I tend to be uh an all-over creative, blah, blah, blah. I don't, you know, everything's not organized. Like, and you're an organized person, so that's I gravitate toward people like you. Researchers are as well, and they ask really good questions. But what I have found is that researchers sometimes go into, and if you're a researcher listening, I love you dearly. Um, but I see them going into situations and they ask a lot of questions. Nothing wrong with that. But sometimes the people who are answering them get a little defensive because they're like, oh, well, they're pointing out that I didn't have a plan for this or that, or they're pointing this and that out. And your idea of good intentions, you know, I think really sticks because um researchers are doing their job. That's why they're asking those questions. They're not out to foil your plan, they're not out to, you know, poke holes in anything, they're just asking questions which will help evolve your thinking. And so um looking at it from that intent really helped flip my mind then. It's like, no, they're not out to get me, but they're asking the questions that maybe I have not asked. And so I need to be vulnerable enough to answer them and next time have answers to that stuff.
SPEAKER_00Uh did that resonate with you as well? Yes, because I think when we're in a school district, right, you have your your technology is on the operation side of the house, but it very much impacts the instructional side. Yes, it does. So when we decide to make a change like implementing MFA, right? Or multi-factor authentication. Multi-factor authentication, yes. Um, that that shifts for teachers what their day looks like, whether it's a small shift, right? Well, we just need you to quick authenticate to us. That may not be a quick authenticate to a teacher, right? Especially if they're being purposeful of keeping their phone put away, or maybe their phone's in their purse and their phone, there, the purse is in a drawer, and maybe that drawer is locked. And now I'm in the middle of teaching and I have to MFA. So I got to unlock that drawer and get my purse and get my phone so I can continue teaching. Right. Right. So um having that perspective, I think, helps when as a as a leadership team and as myself, when we're thinking about doing a rollout of a new project or a new system, that we allow ourselves a space to even just think of what are all the questions that we may get or what are the the hurdles.
SPEAKER_01Anticipate it, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, that others may experience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, that does happen a lot. And like one of my colleagues said, when I'm in a meeting with my team, I will say, is there anything I'm missing here? Because that way you're inviting other perspectives. And I think that's something we could all probably do is you know, invite more perspectives in because it's going to help us deliver better. Yes. What about those um people who do actually set out to uh put a wrench into your meeting or whatever and decide to be sticklers? Now I'm sure that doesn't happen to you, but but if it did, do you have any approaches for um disarming them or de-escalating or anything of the sort? And where might you have seen or gotten some of that information?
SPEAKER_00It's a really good question. Um, I I honestly I don't experience that too often. Um, but I think there are times in conversations, right, where you feel people get heightened or you feel things.
SPEAKER_01Your gut tells you.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um, and I think making sure that at in a conversation, in a meeting, there is a common goal. And if we can focus on that common goal and in education, that is often. In what is best for students, what is best for the environment, you know, the educational environment, uh, that helps to bring a focus to the conversation. Right. And if in the discussion we're focusing on facts versus emotions, yes, um, I think that's helpful, right? Like right now, AI is a hot topic in education. And some people believe there are benefits and some people believe there are, you know, maybe harmful components of. And if if we can focus on, okay, well, we we need students to learn said thing, um, how how does AI help or hinder that? And if if we're seeing a hindrance in one person's perspective, well, somewhere in there there has to be something that can be helpful. So then maybe we just need to focus on that little small component. So finding, I think, common grounds and just being very factual and goal focused, you know, to keep a peaceful environment, you know, where you might have hot topics.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I hear you. And I recall I've I've had to do that, right? Um, where it it's a time to refocus. Um, and I recall, you know, sometimes when people get worked up, they repeat themselves over and over again, or their voice gets louder. And so you can tell that there's frustration and things going on. And you talked about, you know, just your body telling you, or you're seeing on people's faces that there is an issue. So being able to de-escalate, um, bringing to common goals is definitely a good technique for that. And also, you know, letting them know that we hear you, might not agree, you know, or anything but what you're saying, or am I right in in and then rephrasing it so at least you can get them to say, yep, that's right. Yes, you know, because sometimes I feel like, especially when people are spinning, it they feel like maybe, or maybe they feel like they're not being heard. And so being able to get people, you know, at least to acknowledge that, okay, the my concern has been heard, could be helpful to you.
SPEAKER_00That's one thing that has surprised me about being in a leadership role. I guess I didn't, um, I don't know if I didn't anticipate or I just didn't think about the amount of time that the human element takes, right? Whether it's communicating out or finding time to listen to everybody's viewpoints, the the interactions, the relationships. I that is one thing I did not anticipate that I have learned is uh a large part of being a leader.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. Yeah, most definitely. And I remember um you coming to me one time. We did the emergenetics remember um, I don't want to say assessment. It wasn't an assessment, but it's like, what are your communication styles? And um, I recall we got everyone's results if they want to share, it was with consent, um, you know, about their styles. And I know it was you brought to me. Okay, I know if I want to talk to this person, I ask about their kids first because they'll want to tell me about their kids, and then they'll be able to do business. But this other person is a bullet point person. And so you said when I have meetings with them, I go right down the line. Um so any other examples of how how you use that or or communicate with people because you know their style?
SPEAKER_00Well, so not everybody has taken that assessment, right? But that assessment has helped me um make my own inferences on like if if this person were to take the test, this is where they would fall, right? Yes. Um, so there are people that I I strategically know, okay, I probably only need a 30-minute meeting to cover the content, but this person is going to want to connect on a personal level. So I'm gonna make it an hour meeting and we'll have those connections. We'll talk about family, we'll talk about what's happening in the weekend, and then we'll we'll get our our work still accomplished. Um on the flip side, there are still the folks where you're like, okay, well, if you took the assessment, you just want to hammer out the details, do the thing, and you don't want me to ask about family and you want me to go because you have more things that you need to keep going and accomplish. So we'll keep it, we'll keep it short and sweet. Uh so that I think the the knowledge from that assessment has continued to influence me, even though we're not taking like right, that it's not a an as I don't even want to call it an assessment, like you're saying, a a profile that is um tied to every single individual I work with now, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And we might mentally be doing that anyway, right? You know, it's like, okay, I know this approach worked with this person, so I'm gonna keep keep that approach going because I know that works. And so, yeah, and you bring up a really good point about the people part of things, you know, and knowing the technology is one thing, and you know, really anyone can learn the technology, but it's the people things. As you hire people or when you look at um people that you might want to advance, what things do you look for in a person that tell you, like I saw in you, that tell you this person with the, you know, with the right stepping stones, like you said, will do great things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We talked a little bit this morning when we what our presentation about mentorship and sponsorship and uh the stretch, stretch goals for for staff members. Um, that is one thing that in Green Bay currently, we have been very blessed to not have staff leave within our department.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, retirement is a big thing.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. So staff members are staying. We only have shifting in staff members if there's a retirement, and even those are far and in between within our department. So I know there are staff members that want to grow, that they would like to, you know, have a bump in status, a bump in pay, a bump in responsibility, a bump in leadership. So we try to find ways outside of um like physical job change title title changes to allow people to stretch a little bit, maybe focus and be a lead on a project or be a lead on a team, um, but still retain like our organizational structure. So that is that is tricky, right? Because you have to have this balance between, well, you you would like some experience. And I went through that myself, right? I'd I'd like some leadership experience, but I would like to get paid more for that. But I really want the leadership experience. So balancing when that works for individuals and at what times in their their career path that works. I think again that it requires that human element of knowing, knowing the staff that you're working with. Right. Spidey sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the spidey sense. Well, and a couple things. We know that people don't leave jobs because of the pay or whatever. It's because of their manager or, you know, whoever their supervisor is, or a toxic work environment. And so the fact that you're able to retain people um within the department, I think is is a wonderful thing. And and I think about, you know, what we provided, you know, when you ended up being technology TI lead, um the leader of the tech integrators, um, we couldn't provide a bump and pay, but what I could provide was leadership for you and mentorship moving forward. It's like, okay, we're gonna meet once a week, and you're gonna tell me, you know, how things are going and also bring, you know, what are some leadership concerns that you have so that we can talk through them. So it's almost like a a guided um practice. So, you know, you knew you weren't out on your own having to make this sink or swim, we would work together to make that happen. So that was a commitment, you know, for for leaders. And it sounds like you're now doing the same type of thing. Yes.
SPEAKER_00We have um one of our our um, I'm gonna call it like an entry-level team. Um, there is a member of that team who is really looking to grow. And you could see that he was already taking these steps on his own, but he it needed to be like an official capacity for the rest of the team. Um, so just earlier this year, we did something very similar. We said, okay, you're gonna be the lead of this team. Supervisor is going to work through you. You can work with your team however you want to get tasks done or delegate tasks out or work with the team to do said things that need to be done is up to you. Um, but you're going to be our go-between to help grow in those experiences. And so far it has been working out really well.
SPEAKER_01That is awesome. And and that feeling of trust, I'm sure, that you gave this person. It's like, wait, she she is giving me the autonomy to do the things that I think are best without the micromanaging, um, is a great opportunity. So good for you, good for you. And I, you know, again, I saw that with you in your growth. You you were able to, you know, learn on the job and things, and you know, eventually we could have a tech integrator lead in all those things. And that's the other thing I think that sometimes people say, Well, I don't want to do that thing if I'm not getting paid to do it. And I I certainly understand that. But if there's a learning opportunity there, you know, and a commitment from a leader to support and help and serve as a thought partner so that person can move up, I think that's a fair trade. Um, so again, if you're a new leader looking for opportunities, this might be an avenue to go through.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Cause I think you'll see, you might not see the right, like with a pay bump, you see the you get instant gratification, right? Your paycheck went up, you have a little more money in the bank. Um, but with opportunities where you're being sponsored and mentored, those you will see the payoff a year from now, two years from now, three years from now. But you're you'll be that much further than somebody maybe who didn't take those opportunities.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, it's like an investment.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01That is very true. It's an investment. And so um, I recall people saying to me, Well, Diane, you you assigned me this role, and I didn't even think I could do it. But the fact that you believed in me told me that I could do it. And I did. And so has that happened now with your leadership as well, where you're able to hand some of those things over and elevated people? Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yes, right. I think um even seeing supervisors doing that, where maybe it is something that uh a supervisor had a little bit more um like control over or just more hands-on work, we're encouraging the supervisor to let go of things to pass on to another staff member to grow capacity. Um, I'm seeing that too. That's awesome. Yes.
SPEAKER_01And you're modeling that for sure. That's the other thing about managers or supervisors or whatever. When people bring stuff to us, I think sometimes they think we're the easy button. You know, I'll just go to that person, they'll give me the answer. And I think we're so trained that we want to knock through things that we'll give them the answer. And so I learned, you know, in my leadership to back off a bit and say, Well, what do you think? And and always lead with that. And that's why I remembered you saying, I don't bring stuff forward unless I have a solution to bring with it. And I thought that was that stuck with me as well as as a person who served as your thought partner.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I'm aware of that too. When people bring things to me now, it's like, well, do you have a solution for that? Because please don't just bring me a complaint or a problem. Let me know you've thought through this and how do you think we should proceed, or what are your thoughts? Because I can give you my thoughts, but my thoughts might not be the best thoughts. Right. Right? Right. How else have you thought about this? Because if it's a problem for you, you you've probably thought about it. So, what solutions do you have?
SPEAKER_01Well, I love that you model that as well. And that's definitely something I did. I mean, I did not have all the answers. And so I recall um using this symbol, which what stands for loser, but I called it lessons learned. And I would always try to dissect, well, I didn't make the best decision there, you know, and talk about it in front of my staff so that they could see, you know, I I'm not perfect and and I do not make the best decisions all the time. So now how do I backtrack that? How do I prevent it from happening again and being accountable to that? So what what about vulnerability and um the way you present yourself?
SPEAKER_00You know, I think staff need to know that if something goes wrong, we are safe to identify the problem so that we can continue with the solution. Right. Um just this past week we had a pretty big oops that impacted our some of our handful of our staff. Um, but there was no, there was never a point in time where I think my team was like, well, hey, I actually did that or I didn't do that, so it you know, created this issue. Um but there was never a point in time where I felt like anybody was like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna lose my job. Right? Like that has to be the worst feeling to be like, I came to work today, I made an honest mistake or I skipped an honest step, and I'm gonna get fired. Like that seems so extreme. Right. That seems so extreme. So I think to to create as a leader, you need to create an environment where you're like, yeah, that that thing happened, that was the problem, and and let's move forward. Um, a few years ago, we increased the capacity of our um student passwords, right? The complexity of. And what we thought would take place didn't take place. And we created a mess for our librarians. So all the students were coming right. And we very quickly were like, okay, yep, this is a problem. We need more hands on deck. Everybody, we're going out to schools and we're gonna be at the schools and we're gonna help as we can. And it was a self-inflicted problem, right? But at no point in time is like, okay, well, that's the problem. We're done with the problem. We know what the problem is now. What's the solution? And I think as you go through different, you know, scenarios like that as a leader where you don't focus on, you know, well, who did that? Why did that happen? Right. You want to be reflective and say, okay, well, what could we have done better? But in a way that you are not blaming or shaming.
SPEAKER_01Right. Right.
SPEAKER_00So you can be, okay, well, yep, that happened. We don't want that to happen again. So this is what we'll do to fix the issue. So it doesn't happen in the future. But right now we just need to solve the issue because we have a whole bunch of kids that can't log into their computers and learning has halted.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. So what what do we do? Um so creating that environment, right? Where staff can feel comfortable to say, hey, I failed, I messed up. And if they see you doing the same thing, going, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Thought this was a good idea, but it looked great on paper, but yes, yeah. Yes, yes. Well, and I you used uh an important word. You said safe, creating a safe place for that. What do you think? How do you how do you create that safe space? You said, okay, so people they know they won't lose their job, but you know, are there other things that you do that cause because that brings out innovation as well, right? Where people are not afraid to provide, you know, maybe ideas that seem wacky. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um I think behind the scenes, like you might know, well, Amy didn't do that thing or Amy did that thing. But I don't think that information has to go any further. Right? Okay, well, you know, okay, well, Amy did that. Well, now Amy's going to fix it. But you know, this thing happened and our department is on it, right? Like not calling out individuals for making mistakes and keeping that close to the belt and saying, yep, now we're focused on the solution.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I and I would agree. And, you know, also that accountability, you know, it's like, no, we'll I'll be accountable for this. This happened in my department, but we will fix it and don't worry, you know, keep trusting us. Um such good tidbits today. Uh, but I'm wondering, do you have any other final words of advice uh regarding regarding leadership to our new leaders who are listening?
SPEAKER_00Say yes. Right? I th I recall Diane, you used to always ask me, like, what's your three-year goal, what's your five-year goal, where where do you think you're going to be? And I remember answering you and being like, I I don't know. I don't know, because I don't know what opportunities are going to come. Um, so I would encourage new leaders um to say yes to opportunities, right? If somebody is presenting you with an opportunity, you might not see why they're presenting that to you. Um, but do your best to make the time to to provide the effort to say yes to whatever is being offered to you. If it's to lead a project, if it's to go sit at the board table, if it's to go to a conference, um, say yes. See where it takes you.
SPEAKER_01I yes, I will. Yes.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and there we have it. We are Beneath the Water with Amy Jacole of Green Bay Area Public Schools. And I thank you so much for joining us today. This has been Beneath the Water Podcast hosted by me, Diane Dirsch. Deanna Dirsch is executive producer, creative director, and editor. Ragmende is our audio engineer and sound designer. Special thanks to Friends and Friends recording in Chicago, Illinois. The link to the community can be found at the description below. Also, please subscribe and give us a five star review because those reviews go a long way in helping us reach the people who will find a home here. Thanks for joining.