Voices of Resilience: Sarah Gatenby-Clark

Voices of Resilience shares real stories from farmers and community members across Tasmania’s Derwent Valley and Central Highlands who know drought firsthand.

The series explores the challenges of living and working through dry seasons, and the perseverance, innovation, and community connections that help people adapt and keep going.

These are stories of challenge, change, and resilience.

In this episode of Voices of Resilience, we chat with farmer and academic Sarah Gatenby-Clark about how her background in agricultural science has shaped her approach to farming.

Sarah shares why successful farming requires skills that go far beyond working the land, as well as the importance of community, the challenges of balancing farm life with raising a family, and the responsibility of caring for the land for future generations.

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Show theme music: Easy Lemon by Kevin MacLeod.

Voices of Resilience was produced by the Derwent Catchment Project and jointly funded by the Australian Government’s Future Drought Fund and the Tasmanian Government.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to Voices of Resilience. Real stories from people who know drought firsthand. My name is Jen Sanger, and I'm from the Dowent Catchment Project. Throughout this series, we'll hear from farmers and community members from across Tasmania's Dowent Valley and Central Highlands. These farmers have faced droughts and dry seasons that have pushed their land, their livelihoods, and their limits. But this isn't just stories about drought. It's stories about perseverance, innovation, community, and the people who keep going when the odds are stacked against them. These are stories of challenge, change, and resilience. In this episode of Voices of Resilience, I chat with farmer and academic Sarah Gattenby Clark. Sarah shares how her background in agriculture and science has shaped her approach to farming and why successful farmers need skills that go far beyond just working the land. We talk about the importance of community, the challenges of juggling farm life with raising three children, and the responsibility of caring for the land for future generations. Here's our conversation with Sarah. So thanks so much for joining us, Sarah. It's really great to see you and to be able to have a chat to you about your farm and your life and your experience. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

So yes, Sarah Clark, and together with my husband Tom, we run a grazing operation. So we're managing about a thousand hectares running Angus beef cattle and some crossbred ewes for fat lamb production. We do a little bit of agroforestry as well, and previously we've done a few seed crops as well. Um so a bit of a mixed, mixed enterprise but based around the grazing livestock.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yeah, fantastic. And you do uh you're involved in the university as well, is that correct? Yeah, so I do a bit of part-time lecturing at the university in the agribusiness space. Uh excellent. And and um is that at um the Tasmanian Institute of Agriculture?

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Uh based out of the University College where we teach the diploma level agribusiness degrees through through University of Taz, though.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, fantastic. Great. Yeah, so you you you kind of have like quite a busy life going on, right? You've got um, yeah, you've got yeah, there's a lot going on.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Yeah, um, because we also uh so my in-laws business, my partner's family business is the Westway Raspberry Farm. Uh so we're still involved in helping um with that as well. And yeah, with the three young kids thrown into the mix, yeah, uh your time's very quickly taken up.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, absolutely, I can imagine. Yeah, you've got so much stuff going on, like university work, um, farm life, obviously managing the finances of the farm, um, raising three kids. Um, yeah, what would an ordinary day look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Slightly chaotic. Um, generally the morning's taken up with getting the kids ready for school, so it's it's getting them out the door and and down to school. Once they're dropped off and I'm you know, finished that sort of around you know, nine o'clock the day can actually start, depending on what the priority is. So uh some days it'll be in the office and whether it's teaching or doing some book work or catching up on emails, things like that. Um other days it'll be out in the paddock, so it really it's about prioritising where I need to be with it. Um, and then it's yeah, pretty busy working until quarter to three when the kids need picking up from school. Um, and then it's generally either doing things that I can do in the house or around the house or that I can have the kids with me, or if the you know, Tom might have the kids and I'll go and do something else as well. Um, and then it's the the classic, you know, the evening routine with young kids. So it's the it's the home readers, it's the dinner and bath and getting them to bed, and then once once the kids are off to bed, it's usually a couple of hours of of book work or catching up on emails or just trying to, you know, watch a bit of telly or relax for five minutes, read a book. Um so yeah, it's a it's a long day. Um, but yeah, just trying to fit a lot of different things in, and it's about for us, it's about prioritising where where we need to be and what we need to be doing and what fits our skill sets, yeah. Um as well. Busy.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

I think you yeah, definitely living what's a what would be classified as a very busy life. So we live well. There's not quite enough hours in the day some days, yeah. But yeah. Yeah, so do you think that like people underestimate how much organizational work sits behind behind farming?

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Oh, I think those that aren't involved in it, absolutely. Um, and it's getting more and more, whether it's through uh you know the red tape and the compliance side of it, or whether it's just through trying to work out how you can be doing things better and doing that that research or that discovery of going, okay, well, this is what we're doing, but how could we be improving the time it takes to actually be looking into what's out there, what's going to work for us. Um, but even you know, just your your standard, you know, your finances, your emails that you've got to deal with, it takes it takes time, and then you throw in yeah, auditing and and other bits and pieces, very quickly that that role becomes quite busy. As soon as you employ anyone, there's a lot of work involved in that as well. So, yeah, there's a there's a lot to it. I think those that are in farming understand how much is involved, and it's the same in in a lot of other small businesses too, where you're doing the work yourself, you know, you're not big enough to have an HR department and a payroll officer and all that. Um, yeah, you're having to do it yourself. And a lot of the time uh where you know, a lot of people who are doing it they don't have that expertise that you know they're not necessarily um a human resources specialist or a finance advisor or an accountant an IT wizard. Yeah, you just can't, you know, you're a generally, you know, you're a farmer who's trying to do these other roles at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

Um, and that adds extra challenges because we're either having to rely on other systems and trust that they're doing it properly for us, you know. So you you've got your accounting system, what have you, you know, you're putting the data in and hoping that you're putting it in right. Um whereas yeah, if you have if you had that specialised uh field of expertise, it might be a little bit easier at times. But yeah, you do what you can.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Just to discuss kind of resilience and rural rural life and um and what that kind of means to you. Um, do you think having children has changed the way that you think about long-term decisions at all?

SPEAKER_03 7:32

Uh, to an extent, I think a little bit for us because we had always hoped to have kids, that in the back of our mind, even before the kids were around, there was that idea that well, yeah, one day we might have someone who wants to take it on and to pass it on to. Having said that, we'd still be doing the same thing, even if, you know, even if we didn't have kids, or if the kids, you know, they're only young now, they may not be interested, it may not be what they want to do, and I don't ever want them to feel that they have to take it on. Um, but certainly, yeah, there are times when you're making decisions or you're putting things in place and thinking, well, that the next time this decision comes around, it might not be our choice, it might be the kids making this choice. Wow, yeah. Um, as well. But certainly we're very conscious, I suppose, of trying to make sure the business is robust, not just for us, but for the kids. So we've always been very focused on ensuring that the land and the land's capability is improved, that we're actually benefiting the land and the environment around us. But now with kids, yeah, there's certainly a little bit more of that focus on the uh the actual business side of it, having a robust, stable financial business that potentially, you know, all three of them could could be involved in down the track as well. Yeah. Um yeah, it certainly comes into play with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Is there any part of rural life that you hope your children do hold on to?

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Uh yes. Um my children are very much farm kids, which is a really polite way of saying they're a little bit feral. I love that. But they're not they wouldn't be cut out for suburban life.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

And as much as that can be a challenge from a parenting perspective, I also absolutely love it. Um and I feel fairly confident that it's something that they're going to be looking to maintain long term. They may choose to, you know, live closer to town at various stages in their life, but um I think if you've grown up with you know surrounded by space rather than houses, it's what you crave when you when you settle down yourself. Um I think that I think the community and the support and being in you know an engaged citizen within your community, um, that's something that I'd like to see all three of them continue forward. And they certainly they see that a lot from the people around them. You know, it's a small community, most of us are involved in various volunteer groups or the fire brigade or you know, the school association, all those sorts of things, and and so they're already seeing that for communities to have these groups, people have to put their hand up and do it. You can't just rely on you know everyone else to do it for you. Yeah, um, and I think there's a lot of there's a lot of really good lessons in that for kids. So yeah, I think that's something that I'd like them to continue.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah, yeah, that's really, really lovely. Um, you've touched on a really awesome element there too, um, the fact that community is so important in rural landscapes. And how do you feel like in terms of like when you are facing hardship, whether it be from drought or whatever other hardships may arise, is having a good community important for that? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

For several reasons, I think, but one of the really big ones that I've noticed is that particularly when you're having those seasons that perhaps aren't the really extreme, they're just really rough seasons, like they're just a bit ordinary, is actually talking to other people that are in the same geographical area and realizing that you're not the only one that's facing these same challenges. And to know that you're not alone in something is actually a really, really powerful thing to have because if you think that you're alone, you start to doubt yourself so much more. Um, and most of these situations are ones that we can't avoid, they're they're conditions that are put upon us, not conditions that we've created, yeah. And so having that community around where you can actually have those conversations and talk about, you know, what it's been like, or you know, how different people are dealing with things. Because quite often, too, every you know, people are having different ideas or they've seen someone else do something different, and it's really beneficial to have those conversations about it as well, and yeah, just to feel that you're not the only one, and okay, well, yeah, talking to this person, and they you know, they remember from 50 years ago when we had a season a bit like this, and what they did then, and and that too. So you can tap into experience that you might not otherwise have access to. Yeah, um, so there's a lot of benefit in that, and also to most people will help each other out. So, you know, if you're experiencing a difficulty that perhaps is unique to you and you actually talk to your your neighbours or your your friends and that about it, then suddenly someone might say, Oh, look, I can actually help you out with that, or why don't you come and you know borrow our gear for a day, or look, let me come over and show you how to fix that.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Um and those sort of things, yeah, that can make a big difference to it as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I I really kind of think that's such a valuable thing of of rural life that you don't get as much in in um other parts and you know, city centres when we're so bombarded with people, and I think that's like one of the beautiful things. Um having grown up on a farm myself, um having that community, and yeah, it's just yeah, it's a very uh good place to be, isn't it? And to feel supported like that. So yeah, yeah. But also it does take work, right? It does, you know, we we need to kind of you know invest in invest in our community and make time and especially when you're extremely busy like yourself. Yeah, it's sad, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

And what often happens too is when you're getting when you're getting uh bogged down with work or you're just it's it's becoming overwhelming or you've just got everything that could possibly go wrong is going wrong. It can be so easy just to put ourselves in our little shell or you know, wait for someone else to to perhaps say, Hey, let's all get together. Um we're not always great at you know, sort of going, hey, we should have a catch-up, not for any particular reason, let's just have a catch-up. We sort of we do work on it, you know, in our own space quite often. Um we've been quite lucky in this area where particularly in those rough seasons, there've actually been some sort of groups that have got together to say, right, we need to get everyone together and have made that happen. And you do, yeah, you need some, you need at least a few people in your community that have got that um that drive and that impetus to go, right, this is what we're doing, you know, barbecue will be on, come round at this time. Yeah, perfect to make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's a really key thing, isn't it? So, like what do you think resilience resilience actually looks like in farming enterprise?

SPEAKER_03 15:09

I think you've got to look at it in multiple ways. Yeah. So you've got your resilience as far as, you know, like your business resilience. Do you have the like do you have the financial reserves to get through a bad season? Um, can the business withstand impacts, whether it's the you know, sudden, short, sharp things or you know, like fertilizer prices going through the roof, for example, um, or fuel prices, I reckoning, or what have you? Um can it withstand just a bad season um or two potentially, or an interest rate? So you've got the the business resilience side of it. There's also the the lifestyle resilience. I think quite often we can become so focused on the farm and making that work that we forget to go, okay. Actually, I haven't had a break, I haven't had a holiday in you know, so many years. We need to actually get away from physically remove ourselves from the farm for a bit. It might not be having that holiday, it might be am I able to actually enjoy work, or is this becoming too much of a chore? Um is this something that you know can continue on through these different life stages, or if not, what needs to change for that to happen? Um and I think then there's just the the physical farm itself, which again that links very close, like they all interlink to me, but you know, you need to have the the business financial side of it, you need to have the lifestyle side, but you also need to have a farm that is set up as best as possible, or that you have processes in place so that you can weather the storms. So it's having you know, if for us with our livestock, it's for example, um, making sure that we're keeping an eye on what those long-range forecasts are and going right, if we're heading into a um slightly warmer but drier winter, like they're forecasting at the moment, what do we need to make sure for that? Now there's something aspect to that which you know you go, well, that's going to make those few things easier, but also if we don't get a wet winter, then we're not gonna get the flush through in the water holes. So we need to be looking at right, what do we need to be thinking of for that spring and summer water for the livestock in that run country, things like that.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:38

Um, yeah, whether it's having having um your soil fertility to a point where you can actually get through a year just digging into those reserves that are already in the soil when the when the fertilizer price goes too high. Um yeah, so I think there's you've got to look at the resilience from those three different aspects and how what you do for those different things is going to be different for every person and for for different challenges too. Um, yeah, we sort of, you know, we approach things in in a way that works for us. Um not necessarily, you know, doesn't necessarily mean that that's gonna fit the person um next door, but it's looking at, you know, making sure that we we look a lot at what our carrying capacity is. So are we going to be able to grow enough feed for the animals that we've got at these various points in time? And if not, right, what do we need to be doing? For example, when we've had a few really dry autumns over recent years and we've been able to work out well in advance that we're not gonna have enough standing feed for the for the ewes to lamb on if we kept going as we were. So we then bought in some supplementary feed so that we could preserve that lambing feed right up until lambing time. So it's having the the ability to uh and the flexibility to move around those sort of scenarios for us is what becomes important. And the you know, from the lifestyle perspective, it's making sure we're doing things like actually having time off the farm, yeah, um, particularly as an entire family, and that too, that we're actually getting whether it's for just a day or two or whether it's going away for for longer periods, but actually doing it away from the farm.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yeah, having some break. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh, great. Um, so what do you think resilience means to you now that you didn't know 10 years ago? Oh, so much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

Um I feel like I'm you know constantly learning more and more and you know, basic, you know, taking experiences. I think a lot more long-term thinking and looking more and more bigger picture as well. So it's it's looking at right, if northern New South Wales is experiencing certain climatic conditions, you know, if they're having a really bad season, what does that, you know, following that all the way through the food chain, what does that mean for us? If you know, someone in an office on the other side of the world decides to invade a country on the other side of the world, what does that mean for us and how does it affect us? And some things you go, okay, that's not gonna be a big deal. Other things you go, right? Well, we need to be looking at um, you know, have we got yeah, whether it's enough seed or fertiliser, or are we gonna need to um get some additional feed in in reserve? Are we gonna have trouble shifting stock when we want to? Or potentially, so a few years ago, we um actually held back from selling some of our smaller calves than from when we normally would because the prices for that line of stock were a bit lower, um, held on to them for a bit longer to be able to get once the market picked up. Um, but we've even within that we had to be looking at right, can we feed them? How much are they going to grow? Is it going to be worth our while?

SPEAKER_02 21:19

So, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

We spent a lot of time doing cost-benefit analysis and things like that. Um, but also more one of the big things I think we've adapted and learned in the last 10 years, and we're still very much learning on is fitting farming life in with family life. Um, particularly now the kids are getting that little bit older. They they don't want to come all the time to do all the things when they were little enough that you could just put them in the car and they didn't know what was going on. Yeah, um, that was a bit easier, but now it's actually going, all right, yeah. Even though I've got things I need to be doing on the weekend, the kids need a chance to actually. Just be at home and be kids. And so it's fitting in, right? How's that going to work? And making sure that we're sharing that division of labour between Tom and myself as well, so that you don't feel like one of you's just been stuck doing the same thing, you know, whilst the other one gets to do something else. It's actually mixing it up a bit as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yeah, great. Oh, interesting. Um, do you this is um an interesting one. Do you do you think resilience can be taught?

SPEAKER_03 22:33

I think there are a lot of aspects of resilience that can be taught, but I think there's an aspect of it that comes down to approach and attitude to it as well. So there are, yeah, most of the facets of resilience, absolutely you could teach, but the for them to be successful, the whoever's taking them on needs to cater, like adjust them to suit their situation. It's not just a take that off the shelf and follow the recipe. It's actually working out right. These are the, you know, these are the things I need to understand, and this is how I the information I need to feed into that to make it suit my situation. Um, but absolutely there are huge amounts of resilience that can be taught. It's not always easy, um, but yes, yeah, you can.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

And often too we have to learn by experiences and our own failures too, don't we? Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

And you know, and looking at what other people are doing, but also when looking at them, understanding the context of it. Context becomes so important. Um, you know, you might see someone that goes, oh, you know, by by trading stock rather than breeding stock, you know, they might be able to be more resilient for their operation. That doesn't mean it's going to suit you. So you've got to think, right, what's the bigger picture? Right, it's more around what their system is, perhaps. So, okay, what system is going to work for you in your lifestyle, your your situation, your pasture growth, things like that. You know, the more information you can have is great, but you need to understand that information as well to be able to apply it successfully. Um, and that's where I think we can see some people get frustrated with you know, whether it's planning processes and that too, of sort of it becomes an information overload and not understanding how to apply that information or how to interpret and digest it for their own context.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So has working in agriculture changed the way you think about success? Probably not, but because I've always been surrounded by agriculture.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Um so I was never one that sort of saw success as having the most money in your bank account or anything like that. Um, yeah, I think what's probably changed from actually, you know, the being involved over a longer time and being exposed to a lot more other agricultural enterprises and that too, is that how you might measure yourself has probably changed. Whereas, you know, certainly when I was younger, I would have thought, you know, well, the the bigger the farm and the more animals you have, then the more successful you are. But actually at the end of the day, it's more about are you able to do what you want to do with you know, with things like financial stability, you know, it's all well and good to have the biggest farm with the most animals, but if you're not, you know, if you're relying purely on borrowings and you're not actually moving forward with it, then is that success? To me, it's not. To someone else, maybe it is, maybe that's their perception. Um, but yeah, I think overall my yeah, my view of success is probably hasn't changed massively, it's just more those finer details where you go, oh, okay, yeah, it's not just about having all the gear and and all the land, it's actually about how you run it and how satisfied you are in it. That that to me is probably a bigger, bigger thing that yeah, you can if you've got all the land in the world but you don't get to sleep at night because you're constantly chasing your tail with it, it's that's probably not successful.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yeah, um, yeah, you've touched on a really important thing there, right? Like, you know, we can have all the money in our world or like the biggest farm or have the most, you know, shiniest equipment. But if you're stressed out to your eyeballs trying to manage all of that, um, that's you know, you might look like you're successful from the outside world, but if if life is so stressful that it's not really worth wit living. But yeah, I think yeah, definitely success is kind of you know loving what you're doing and and not having and feeling comfortable and and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

And I think for for most of us in farming too, you know, it's again, it's you know, it's not just a job, it's your lifestyle sort of thing, but you still need to have a work-life balance. Like you still need to feel that you can do the things that give you that bring you joy, yeah, um, as well that are not directly related to the farm. Exactly. Um too. And I think, yeah, particularly probably um I'm finding even, you know, sort of as the years are going on, that that's becoming more and more a thing of going, right? You yeah, I want to be enjoying what I'm doing, whether it's on the farm or off the farm.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Um, you know, why why feel like you're it's a hard slog when if you can find a system that that allows you to actually get that enjoyment. There's still gonna be days that are hard, there's still gonna be hard work involved. Absolutely. It's not gonna be easy. But um, yeah, you wanna you wanna you wanna want to get out of bed of a morning.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah. Um, I think. Yeah, absolutely. That's so so true, isn't it? What type of person do you think does really well in agriculture? To me, I think it's comes down to um attitude and work ethic.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Like I think if you're someone who really thrives off um getting things done and and goes in with that that real sort of can do, let's give it a let's give it a go attitude. Um and isn't afraid of that hard work, knowing that you may not get rewarded for that hard work in the foreseeable future. You know, sometimes you can put in a lot of hard work and it can be a long time before you see benefits from that. Um I think that's that's important. Common sense, having common sense really, really helps. Um you've got to be you've got to be passionate, I think, about what you're doing and the land. But yeah, I think work ethic, and attitude, common sense, a passion for what you do, um, and and the desire to actually manage the land. So it's not, you know, have an understanding that the impact of what you do and how you can actually improve things as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Um I think that's really yeah, probably valuable. It helped you know, there are other things that that can help, you know, if you're yeah, someone who thinks outside the box, then that can actually be really beneficial in agriculture, but it's not necessarily an essential thing. But yeah, I think attitude has a lot to do with it as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah, and that kind of touches on a little bit of um my next question, which is what keeps people steady during the hard seasons, do you think?

SPEAKER_03 29:48

I think this inherent optimism that this too shall pass, everything is a f is a f is a stage or a phase. Um I know we talk about that a lot when it comes to parenting kids, too, that good or bad, everything's a stage. Yeah. Um so I think, yeah, the fact that, you know, like for example, in in droughts, um, and that I remember someone saying to me one day, well, every day it doesn't rain is a day closer to when it will. Yes. Um, and I thought that is optimism, right? Yes, isn't it? Uh so I think there's I think there's that. I think that's what helps get you through. I think seeing other people continuing on helps. Um I think there is realistically also an aspect of going, well, so in farming we're quite often asset rich and cash poor. Um, you know, you still have to pay the bills and you still need to be doing something to do that. So in some situations it's a little bit of a well, what else are you gonna do? Um, but I think a lot of it is that we we ride the waves, you know, you there are peaks and there are troughs, and if you can harness those peaks, you know, the the really good times enough to to weather those troughs and to get through the the the bad seasons and stuff, at the end of the day, it it should balance out. Yeah. Um and I think yeah, I think that comes down to it, and the yeah, and that's where your your planning and your preparation um really come into play, sort of going right, well, yep, you know, stock prices, you know, we've are are good at the moment, great, but what do we need to be doing to make sure that we're covered for if they drop again or if the input costs go through the roof? Yeah, how do we have we you know what do we need to be making sure is in place for that?

SPEAKER_00 31:47

So forward thinking for that too. Absolutely. Um what kind of strengths do you admire in rural people? Um a lot.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Um work ethic, like there's some I've seen some of the best work ethic in people that are from rural backgrounds, whether they're from farms or whether they're just from rural communities. And that too, again, it's that kind of well, someone's got to do it, so I might as well get on and do it. Yeah. Um, that I absolutely love. The the community and the concern for other people. I think there's I just think there's a lot of really good personality traits that you can get from having grown up in rural communities, and yeah, that sort of you know, not afraid of hard work. Um, yeah, there's a definite toughness that comes with rural and regional living. Um and I yeah, I appreciate that in people, I think.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

So, yeah, so it's just really interesting to know, do you um do you think that academia has changed the way about how you think about farming?

SPEAKER_03 32:56

Uh yeah, to an extent. So, although having said that, I so I did ag science at uni um and and went on to do a research masters and and that um before getting into farming properly.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

So I came in with a little bit of that academia um background already, um and I think the questioning nature that I I think have always had, but that drew me to things like ag science, I think that's definitely had a play in in how we farm. Um and my um constant questioning of but why don't we do it this way, or have we looked at this, or yeah, what about this? Um and also being exposed at that level to some of the various uh research that's happening both within Tassie but also internationally as well. Yeah, it sometimes sort of gives you ideas for things that you might not have thought of otherwise. After I'd you know, I'd finished all my undergrad and postgrad work and had been working off farm still but in different spaces, um, some of which was academia as well. Um, and then once our business had got to the point where it was sort of becoming more of a business rather than just a few sheep and cows, um, I realized that I had skills gaps, and they were skills gaps that Tom couldn't fill with his um own skills as well, and that was around the finance and the business management, the business admin side of it. So I actually went on and did an MBA because I wanted to be able to run our business better. If I hadn't been exposed to as much university-based learning as I had, that wouldn't necessarily have been my first thought. I might have gone and done, you know, a an online course or a TAFE course somewhere, but to actually, you know, sort of feel comfortable enough in the the academic world to go, well, I'll just do an MBA. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. If I'm gonna run the business, I might as well understand it to all, you know, a really high level. Yeah, absolutely. Um and that's been really that was actually one of the really valuable um things I did. So the the ag science degree, really, really important for how I operate as a farmer. Yeah, um, and my constant questioning of everything and asking, asking for more detail and and but why? Yes, um, or and so tell me more, yeah, yeah. Um, and then the MBA for the business side of it, you know, just the some of the things we were already doing, but I didn't actually have a name for. I didn't, you know, like I didn't it was a process that we were doing, but perhaps we weren't doing it quite right, and so then by going through and actually getting that that training in there to then be able to do it. The teaching work then is quite interesting because that you know, so I do that part-time and what I teach is all taught online, so I'm actually able to do it out of my office here, which is fantastic. Yeah, um, and it and it enables it to fit within my life. It has everything in my life at the moment has to have a certain level of flexibility, yeah. And that does. I do it for several reasons. One is it gives me something different to be doing, so it you know, sort of keeps my foot in the door in that that university and teaching space, which I really enjoy. It it's my pocket money, you know, it sort of brings in that little bit of my so even when we are having a rough season, I know that I can at least feed the family, yeah, and keep a roof over our heads, sort of thing. Um, so it's nice to to have that. Um, but it also helps keep me on the ball, I find, because the the content that I teach is largely it's related to production agriculture, so it it relates very strongly to what I do and what I see around me, and it's great because I'm able to use examples from what's around me all the time, but also it you know, I've got to keep on top of I've got to have I have to make sure I'm delivering the most relevant and the most up-to-date content to my students, so it helps keep me on the ball as a farmer as well, of actually looking at different things. Um, you know, for example, in grazing, you know, we might be looking at some different pasture species and things like that, or different ways of uh managing your grazing efficiencies, things like that. So it does it's yeah, nice double benefits that I get from that as well, and yeah, it just helps keep keep things ticking over, I think for me.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, oh that's really interesting. Yeah, do you think evidence and lived experience always line up uh neatly in agriculture?

SPEAKER_03 38:11

Uh as far as like research evidence and lived experience. Um I mean to an extent, yeah, but again, there's so many variables. Anytime that you're dealing with living things, yes, there are variables. And I'm sure that if you talked to someone who was in the medical science field, they'd probably say the same that yes, you can do all the theoretical stuff in the world, but then actually applying it in a farming operation. So it's the same with you know, you do your doing your research and you might then be doing your paddock trials, you know, in a controlled semi-controlled environment. There's then that difference between taking that and actually taking that on farm and getting that real ground-truth thing. We're really lucky in Tassie that we've got groups like Tia that do amazing research and that understand this. And so you get people like Rowan Smith who are doing all that fantastic pasture research actually out on farms. Um, yeah, as well. It's the same, like we've been working with Peter Boll to, you know, you know, for a pasture trial out here where it's you know, we've got all this evidence from all these research that's been done on say individual species. Let's see what happens when you actually put it out in the field where you are doing long-term studies, yeah, too. Because that's one of the big things is that you know, a lot of research projects are limited by time because they're funded projects, they want to see results and have the project wrapped up within, you know, anywhere from six months to three years, sort of thing. Yes, yeah. Well, on farm and you know, pasture's a fantastic example. If I'm putting in a permanent pasture, when I say permanent, I don't mean three years, I mean like really long term. Yeah. Um, and that's where I think it's it is really important to have that ground-truthing happening and for um for researchers to be working closely with landholders too, who can also then it's a two-way system, you know, you feed information back and forth to for them to be understanding well what are the issues that people are currently dealing with, so that you know, industry are getting results from research that we need, yes, um, as well as you know, some of that forward thinking stuff, fantastic, but it the relevance becomes really important, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

And then there's also there's so much out of your control, weather systems, markets, as you've all touched on as well, too. So, yeah, like so all of these things kind of um come into play as well. Um do you think agriculture is sometimes misunderstood by people outside it?

SPEAKER_03 40:54

Oh, absolutely, and uh we're our own worst enemies in that capacity to some extent, because and you know, a lot of us will go, well, you know, what like I consumer education um really interests me. But I can also see why a lot of us go, I haven't got the time to explain. You know, they say, you know, you've got to get your story out there. Okay, that's fine, but when am I supposed to do that? Because I and some there are some that are amazing at it. There's there's farmers that I follow on social media that are fantastic at getting their stories out there, but the amount of time that that takes up to be able to get your story out there on those platforms. Absolutely, I can completely understand why not everyone does it because I don't do it, you know. Post the occasional picture of what's happening on the farm, but it's not you know, it's not done to the extent that you need to do it to be able to get the wide audience that you really need to tell the story. Um there are a lot of aspects of farming that people will make judgments on without taking the time to actually understand. Um, and that's really challenging because you've got to try and change people's minds, and that's why the the people that are doing a great job of telling farming stories, it takes them so long because they've got to explain so much. Um, yeah, there's a there's a lot of things that are misunderstood or just unknown in farming too, you know, the amount of work that can go into something that you know if you if you're not in farming you don't realise how much is actually in involved and that it's not all waltzing around, you know, patting cows. There's a lot of there's a lot of unglamorous aspects of farming. Um and we don't all have the time to put into to tell farming story, but maybe we should, maybe we should be making more time for that to get it out there and get it understood as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Yeah, that's true, but um you make a really good point there, but then also, yeah, we were talking about how busy you are as well. Yeah, in those few extra hours that you've got to magically pull out of somewhere whilst I'm asleep. Yes, exactly. Um, yeah, but um, I think, and that's what we hope to do with kind of podcasts like this, you know. Yeah, um be able to kind of help people share their stories and yeah, which is always really nice. Um is there anything that you've had to kind of let go of to keep everything functioning in your life? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 43:48

Like I my personal social life is pretty limited and primarily uh revolves around um, you know. having people that have that similar are in a similar stage of life or similar similar interests and things like that and just you know having to accept that I just don't have the time to be able to you know go on visit my my best friends and that that I've had for for years because well that's a that's a whole day trip because they don't live next door. Yeah um you know so it's a a day trip at best and and that and you just go okay for for now whilst things are are crazy and and hectic that has to take a bit of a back shit you find other ways to keep in touch and communicate. Yeah but that's definitely um a big yeah probably sacrifice makes it sound really dramatic but yeah that's certainly something I'm really lucky that I've um made some really good friends that are either part of the local farming community or you know parents of kids that are at school with my kids and things like that. So you're able to have that social interaction and that as well but that certainly um can be a bit of a a tough one and you've got to be very conscious of that and not becoming isolated exactly um as well um so that's certainly one um and you have to and I think this is more a reflection of probably having young kids rather than farming per se but yeah like Tom and I have to make sure we make time for going and doing things that are just us sometimes you know there's there's not always the the you know regular date night yes options and things like that but actually going right you know we're very lucky that we've got brilliant support from from family so a lot of Tom's family live within westaway as well so that's great you know sometimes we're able to you know offload the kids for an evening so we can go and you know have dinner somewhere or something like that. But yeah there's a I think with kids that you don't you're not able to be as spontaneous as perhaps before kids especially when they're not old enough to be left at home on their own. Exactly yeah or left at home without burning the house down. Yes good point yeah so I think I think there are those things that I've yeah probably but I feel like they're short term relatively short term sacrifices um you know like once the yeah once the kids are able to be left at home without us worrying about them burning the house down and yeah once they're old enough to to be able to sort of do their own thing a bit well that gives you a bit more freedom there and we've become very conscious over recent years of having the farm and the enterprises within it and how we run you know the whole system um having that so that we can take that time away and you know even if it is just for a weekend or a few nights or something to be able to go and yeah get away from things and and refresh and come back with fresh eyes um with it too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Yeah very important yeah um what worries you the most about the future of farming at the moment probab there's a few things.

SPEAKER_03 47:33

One is the kind of death by a thousand cuts sort of thing like it's the oh you've got a you know you suddenly got to pay a fee to get you know something updated or for your for your LPA accreditation or an order or something you know like it's all these little things where you go it it either comes with a cost or it comes with time. And time is a cost you have to put value on your own time. For me it's quite easy because I go right what do I get paid per hour at uni?

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 48:03

Yeah and work out from that well you know that's how much I could be making elsewhere and therefore that's the value of my time. That's not you know if I do work for someone else I'm not necessarily going to charge them that you have to value your own time and we are terrible when we own our own business for doing that because we just go oh I'll just get it done so I don't have to pay someone well one you should be paying yourself if you can yes but also value your time. Yeah um so it is yeah it's the the deaths by thousand cuts sort of every little thing that just adds it's just another thing that you've got to do um and sometimes sometimes you can see the value in it and that's okay or you get a you know other benefits and that fine but when it's just when it just feels like someone's just clipping the ticket or just making you do that for their sake it it gets really really frustrating. Yeah um so there's that aspect of it um we've come to realise that it's going to be quite hard going forward to um expand the business as far as actual hectares go. So it's going right what how can we be making better use of what we've got um and we've got a lot of scope there which is great but yeah you sort of look at okay well down the you know if land prices keep tracking this the way they have been and and all three of our kids want to be involved in farming it suddenly gets quite hard to go right is there enough here for three individuals to actually be able to do this make an income off yeah yeah to be able to make a living and enjoy it um or not so yeah up here we haven't seen it too much but certainly where I grew up south of Hobart and that you know you've I've seen it a lot where the the that periurban area you know urban encroachment and just what were once half decent sized farms have you know gradually been made smaller and smaller until before you know it it's uh you know got houses all over it and that that becomes really hard too where you go well if we're constantly getting pushed out to the fringes and really really beautiful land and landscape sometimes are being converted into um suburbia um you know how are we going to feed all the people that live in those cities um and and then it comes down to an issue of you know suddenly it it's costing us more and more to produce the food but your average consumer only wants to pay a certain amount for that and so then suddenly they're you know going oh well I can get this other product that's been imported from overseas cheaper without actually understanding how that affects everything around them as well so that lack of consumer education um urban encroachment and death of a thousand cuts are probably the three things that play on my mind a fair bit um yeah no I totally get that I actually grew up in a on a dairy farm in northern New South Wales and it's now in industrial estate yeah it's just just such a waste of good good like really good land. I can remember when because I grew up in the Heewen Valley so I would go up the Hewn Highway a lot and I can remember when that kind of back bit of Kingston was paddocks. Yes wow like I can remember that and and now I drive through and it's yeah like I when I started high school there were a few houses back there and now it's just bigger and bigger and there's you know and the highways have to get bigger to handle the traffic and yeah there's a there's an element of at what point does it does it stop at what point do you overtake the benefits of it as well so yeah. Yeah it's crazy hey yeah all right one more last question um um thanks so much for your time so far but um um what gives you confidence in the future it's a good question there's there's a few things the most pessimistic answer I could I probably have at the moment would be the fact that everybody needs food and clothes. Yes because unless you want to be naked and hungry you're gonna need your farmers um so you know there's always that underlying aspect that that you know there's always going to be some kind of role for for farming. Yeah um but again that feels a little bit pessimistic at the same time um I think confidence is that is the the what gives me confidence is the confidence I have in what we produce. Like I know that we are producing um good quality stock we're producing it on land that we're caring for and that we're enhancing we're doing things that are benefiting our broader landscape as well so we're we're doing native veg plantings we're managing um things like you know areas that are prone to erosion and things like that we're managing them to improve them not just stop the damage but actually do what we can to improve and things like that. So what you know what Tom and I are doing is you know I think what gives me confidence we're working to be able to hand over or pass on something that's even better than what we started with. And I think that gives me confidence that yeah sort of that a robust business hopefully but also on land that is um that has benefited from our management of it. Yeah. And I think that's that's probably what I lean back on a lot particularly when you're going through like those rough seasons and stuff is that you know we're we're doing what we can to enhance everything around us. Yeah. And and that that can only be a good thing going forward I think.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

Yeah yeah absolutely yeah oh well thanks so much for sharing your story. It's been so interesting chatting with you and um yeah it's really inspiring what you're doing here and um and I just really love your outlook on you know how important community is and really interesting to get your take on you know how academia's kind of helped you um with managing the farm. So yeah thanks so much. Cool thanks for listening to Voices of Resilience. This podcast was produced by the Derwent Catchment Project it was jointly funded by the Australian government's Future Drought and the Tasmanian government. Thanks for being part of the conversation and we'll see you next episode