Donuts on the Couch: Growing Up on Evergreen Terrace

Moaning Lisa - Donuts on the Couch: Growing Up on Evergreen Terrace S1E6

• Andrew Murray and Thom Partridge • Season 1 • Episode 6

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:07:29

In “Moaning Lisa,” Lisa finds herself overwhelmed by a sadness she cannot explain—and surrounded by adults who do not quite know how to help. Andrew and Thom discuss the episode’s remarkably thoughtful portrayal of childhood depression, Homer’s well-intentioned but misguided attempts at parenting, and Marge’s eventual realization that Lisa needs understanding rather than encouragement to simply smile. Along the way, they explore sibling rivalry, vintage video games, jazz as emotional expression, and the importance of giving children space to feel heard.

SPEAKER_00

Grab a donut and have a seat on the couch. Welcome to Donuts on the Couch, growing up on Evergreen Terrace, yet another Simpsons Rewatch Podcast.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome. Hey, we are back. Tom, good afternoon. Uh or good morning or good evening, depending on where you are in space and time as you're listening to this.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, indeed. Uh it's morning here, so uh or no, it's noon. I don't know. It's whatever.

SPEAKER_02

It's again somewhere, and that's okay. So uh well, hey, welcome back. Uh joining us to talk about another episode of The Simpsons. We are now on uh season one, episode six of The Simpsons with moaning Lisa, and I am Dr. Andrew Murray. I'm a psychiatrist in private practice in northwest Wisconsin, and um I'm here with Tom.

SPEAKER_01

Hey guys, Tom Parchards, uh podcast sports, weekly sports podcast host here in southern Maine. Um working at a collectible store um in my part-time as well. Um sports cards, youth sports, we do it all. Um and I wanted to show you something today to get us started off that have kind of merged my universes, Simpsons and um trading cards. So, Andrew, I don't know if you know this, but for the last couple of years, you know, Topps Trading Cards has done like last year they did a new Disney set. They've done um they did a SpongeBob set. And I have been advocating hard for a Topps Simpson set. I think that would be phenomenal. Um and randomly through sorting cards last weekend, I found some cards, some unlicensed cards that featured Bart um and Bo Jackson that were released in 1990, which ironically was the, you know, of course, was the first year Simpsons was released, other than the one episode that came out in 1989. But I have them on I have them here. And do you remember the old commercials with Bo, like Bo Jackson, like Bo Nose?

SPEAKER_02

Bo Nose, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Bono's baseball, Bonos, Football. So these are basically like Bart Nose cards. Um Yeah. So here's here's one right here where we have Bart and Bo Jackson, and the back simply says Bo Nose Bart.

SPEAKER_02

Bo Nose.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and another one I found was them surfing. Surfs up bow. Surfs up bow, and it says Bo and Bart no surfing.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, they both know surfing, yes.

SPEAKER_01

And uh, and a final one that I found was Bo Jackson in um still with the surfboard for some reason. And uh and and Bart Simpson is Bo Nose Bart, which is just a hilarious uh thing. I don't know. Um, I just felt like I had to share it.

SPEAKER_02

I thought it was hilarious. I uh I wonder if uh Simpsons or Bo Jackson or anybody was involved in that, or whether they just sort of took their imagery and made some cards.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. There was uh there was a couple with uh Joe Montana um on them, you you know, saying Bart knows football, and there was some Michael Jordan and David Robinson at it as well. So who knows? But uh they're out there, people have them, they're fun.

SPEAKER_02

Well, for all questions about uh cards and collectibles, Tom is your guy.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_02

Um I know a little bit less about that world. Uh you know, I most of my entanglement with it is uh through Tom at this phase of my life, but uh um you know I figured I had to share those.

SPEAKER_01

Those are those are great, great, great finds.

SPEAKER_02

Well, again, we're here talking about the Simpsons and this this frame of uh we are two now middle-aged men, uh fathers, uh, and we have had a changing perspective on how we've watched The Simpsons growing from when we were eight or nine when these episodes first came out to current day, and we are looking back at them and seeing um what stands out to us? What's what's different? What are some of the themes that seem more relevant now as we think about raising our own kids and uh our own roles as parents? Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

In this season one, episode six, Moaning Lisa. Um the first big like Lisa episode, right? Yeah, so we've we've seen Lisa in the first five episodes, and we know who she is. She, you know, she's a young kid, she's second grade. Um she's smart, she sticks up for herself. Um, but we don't really see how she fits exactly with this family um just yet. She laughs when when Bart uh you know prank calls Mo's taffer and all those things. She's part of she's part of it. She's, you know, there, but this episode really we get to dive in and see what's going on with Lisa and um her role in this family and in the show.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So we start it just as we do all of them with the introduction. We don't skip the intro. I think that's an important part of the show. Uh one of, you know, you pointed out the semi-painless dentistry last time. I was looking at the shop beneath that is Howard's Flowers. Uh it's written in script, so it's kind of hard to see, and I had to sort of pause. And I was looking into it a little bit, and uh, it did turn out that they sort of integrated Howard's Flowers into some of the storylines later on. Um, and they it shows just like a little piece of it, and then there's like a 15-year gap between times that they actually talk about it. So it comes up in like one of the much later seasons, and there's like a big corporate version of it. Uh so maybe we'll learn more about Howard's Flowers.

SPEAKER_01

Howard's Flowers. Uh, that's interesting. I didn't catch that one. Phenomenal. But yeah, so we go right off to the chalk uh, you know, Bart writing on the chalkboard. Chalkboard gag, yeah. And this this one, you know, so far we've seen, you know, I won't burp in class, you know, just typical classroom things. This one says, I will not instigate revolution.

SPEAKER_02

Revolution. That's a which is that's a that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_01

That's a big deal. Kind of, you know, just nope, you stay in your classroom and listen and don't have a lot of ideas, you know. That that seems to be a common thing in the Springfield school system. Yes. And we see it again later in this episode, which we'll get to. Um and then of course we go through the rest of the intro, um, and we get to the couch. The couch gag. And it's the same theme. It's as we've seen. We've seen Bart pop off the couch, we've seen homework pop off the couch, we've seen the couch break. Um we had one episode where they didn't even do it. That was disappointing. Disappointing, yeah. And this one, Maggie pops up, Maggie gets squeezed out. Um, Maggie the baby, yes. Maggie the baby, she shoots straight up, and Marge catches her, which is nice.

SPEAKER_02

That's that's uh the mother's role there to make sure the baby stays safe, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, so it seems.

SPEAKER_02

Uh so it's well then the it transitions to another opening, and uh that's a a theme that we've been looking at in the series of how the shows open, some of the first lines of things that sort of stick out, and you know, the the the real first shot is of this sad pair of eyes, and I think it's like not immediately apparent whose sad eyes it is, but it you know, it sort of uh shows itself that they they belong to Lisa. She's sad. You hear the faucet dripping in the bathroom, there's pounding on the door, there's a tube of toothpaste on the side, glum branded toothpaste.

SPEAKER_01

I picked up on that as well, glum toothpaste, which I guess is a play on gleam, you know, but how she's feeling is quite glum at this moment.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. So the first line is is Homer pounding on the door saying, Lisa, Lisa, are you still in there? And and then and then also making the joke, did he fall in? Very much a dad joke right there. Yep. Um, you know, I was thinking as this was going on, like they're fighting over this bathroom space. We've seen this giant house that they live in. We know that there's a master bathroom that Homer and share. Um, but for some reason there's some urgency around this bathroom at this time.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right, yeah. And it's uh well, we've also seen the the the theme of kind of the chaotic morning before the bus arrives. And that seems to be that seems to be exactly what we're seeing here, but we're seeing it slowed down through Lisa's eyes, and she's sad and at this moment at least doesn't feel seen. Um, for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_02

So she just sort of slinks out of the bathroom, Bart dashes in.

SPEAKER_01

He dashes right in, you know, and and barbs at home are saying he's too slow or whatever, you know. Yeah, yeah. And uh, you know, it's it's great. It's you know, we we've all had that growing up.

SPEAKER_02

This this this to me reminds me of like the fantasy I have of like what the bathrooms you had growing up were like between you, your brother, and your sister and you and yes.

SPEAKER_01

So my two older sisters that were uh quite a quite a bit older, but you know, just just offspring of my my dad. Um and uh they would be in and out as well. And yes, yes. We had a fairly decent sized bathroom with two sinks and a shower, but there's only one door in. It would be locked.

SPEAKER_02

There's still some sharing that needs to happen. That's yes, absolutely. My my kids do that now. We're going through all the fights about like when it's okay to lock the door, when you can't lock the door, and um and and we've got four bathrooms in our house. And you know, there's enough that everybody could be in a different bathroom if they needed to be. But Right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's uh in my house, uh it's just me and my son, and uh I've noticed that the doors don't even get fully closed half the time. It's just like you know, because it's like we have two bathrooms and there's two of us, and okay, I'm just gonna go down here. I you know, he he runs into the he runs into the bathroom with his iPad half the time. Um which which I would laugh at, but I grabbed my phone up too. So we're all doing the same thing here.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Yeah. That's funny. Uh yeah, I guess with that atmosphere, you know, if you need to use the sync, you use the sync. And uh Right.

SPEAKER_01

Whatever. Go on.

SPEAKER_02

Uh transitions next to Homer looking for his keys. Bart's making some like really unhelpful suggestions. Lisa points out that they're still in the door. Have you ever done that? Um no, no. Um, I've done that. The house we lived in back in Massachusetts before we moved to Wisconsin, uh had a key in to get through the door. There was no like connected garage or anything like that. So um there were days where it was just like such a hurry and you know, getting in and pushing the dogs out of the way as you're getting in the door and all of that, that I absolutely left my keys in the door, did not find them until the next morning, and there's this moment of like, where on earth could they possibly be? And then as you're giving up and walking out the door, you hear the jingle.

SPEAKER_01

And that's I did like how Homer's first thought is who stole them? Yeah. Like who who took them?

SPEAKER_02

We don't want to hold the podium of losing it, right?

SPEAKER_01

Right, right, right. Um Yeah. So uh and Lisa kind of presents it with like a dad, they're right here. You know, she's still you can still see she's very sad. She's very glum, as her toothpaste wants her to be, apparently. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02

But also taking care of the people around her and sort of the obligation of that as being sort of the smartest bulb in the room. Um that that can be tough on a little kid. It really is a challenge.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell Right. And within that moment of searching, too, there's a moment where Homer asks Bart, I mean, uh Bart asks Homer if he checked the rumpus room. I want to see this rumpus room. And he didn't even think of that. Right. Like, you know, I wish we I wish we had more activities happening in the rumpus room. I've never had a I've never had a home where I referred to someplace as the rumpus room.

SPEAKER_02

Have you? I haven't, but I think this is uh an opportunity, if anything.

SPEAKER_01

And then we go we go into the cupcakes again. The cupcakes have made an appearance in previous episode where, you know, again, in that theme of rushing out the door, the keys have been found, he needs to get to work, the kids need to get to school. Marge comes out with two cupcakes, and it's just like, I only have two.

SPEAKER_02

What a horrible timing. You know, the insistence on like this is the time we have to talk about the cupcakes. Man, I hate when something like that happens as we're trying to walk out the door. Like, just forget it. You know, we'll deal with the cupcakes later. But anyway, there's a brief conversation of like, okay, well, what do we do? I also like how it automatically excludes uh Marge from it. Like, she was never in the running for a cupcake. They're trying to figure out which of the three the three kids, Homer, Lisa or Bart, gets the cupcakes.

SPEAKER_01

Although she came out, so maybe she put one aside for her. You know, maybe she's like, no, I'm gonna deal with these three older ones that are leaving. Um Lisa falls on the sword. I don't I won't, you can take mine, you know. Very, very dramatic and very glum.

SPEAKER_02

She's in a depressed state. She's not feeling good. She's not gonna get any joy out of a cupcake, right? No, no, not at all. And their world continues to sort of look like this. They got to the the the band room, they're in I don't know if it's a music class or band or whatever. They're they're all playing instruments. Uh is this the first time we actually meet the teacher? Uh I think so. Largo? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, is that his name? Dewey Largo. Um I believe so. We might have um well, we do we see we see him in the opening, right? I think Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what she's saying. Yeah, we see him there, but we never we never had a name. We never heard him speak. Uh Right.

SPEAKER_02

So obviously they call him Mr. Largo.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I'd say he's like the band teacher, and he's very focused on getting them ready for the recital. The recital that's coming up next week, yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. So they're practicing what uh My Country Tisothy, and uh Lisa has her own riff to it. She this is the really the first introduction of the saxophone, which I think is also like kind of an important character or part of Lisa, anyways. Yes, yes. I remember this coming up as a um you know second grader or whatever it was when we were first watching this. And how quickly so many kids started playing saxophone after that.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. It can't it became very popular and you know it's part of her identity. I think if you go and search for Simpson action figures and you find Alisa, the saxophone will be with it. You know, it's like Bart, it's like Bart with his skateboard and Homer with his donut, you know, like which we haven't seen a lot of Bart's do. I mean, we at work a little bit, he he has some, you know, but it hasn't c come up more and more. We of course see Bart with the skateboard every opening, and um although we haven't seen a ton of him out in the world with it. Um but yet, yes. But yes, but this is an I this is an identifying force with Lisa. This is part of who she is. She plays the saxophone and she plays it quite well.

SPEAKER_02

Now, Marge, does she have an identifying object? I not yet in this, but I think back to like the video game, uh the arcade game. She swings a vacuum cleaner.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, she does. Um I feel like her identifying object right now is not an object. Her identifying object is Maggie. You know? Yeah, and her her blue hair. Um, you know, that's kind of uh, you know. But uh we'll have to we'll have to make note of when we have that first true Marge episode where it focuses more on Marge. Um, because even in this episode, as we get through this, it focuses primarily on Lisa, but then there's a side side story here with Barton Homer. Um with the box, with the boxing video game that they're playing. So again, Marge is kind of Marge and Maggie seem to be on the sidelines, which Lisa was as well. Um, but now we're getting to see more and more of Lisa, which is which is important.

SPEAKER_02

Again, yes, as the whole family sort of fleshes out and we they become more three-dimensional, we're getting to know her and her her capacity for depression and having different mood states. She's not just a typical cartoon character where everything's okay, right? And I I think this was also sort of a novel thing at this time. Cartoon characters weren't really getting into this uh these different mood states uh very much yet.

SPEAKER_01

They're showing the characters are showing depth and human emotion, which is you know important for any TV show. And this is the second episode we've seen that has dealt with depression. We obviously saw it with Homer and Homer's Odyssey. Yeah. Um, where his was kind of at an extreme level where you wanted to do something about it. Um and it's interesting, and I and I do like that they're showing it with Lisa and they're identifying it as a second grader. That's pretty young to already be identifying depression, but it's out there.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, yeah, kids, kids deal with it. The kids, it's a stressful world for kids too, not just uh us adults. And we are uh often forgetting that. So I think that's an important thing to think about. It's funny the reaction Mr. Largo has uh as she's playing this riff on the saxophone, and you know, saying that there's really no room for this sort of jazz in my country tizothy, and Lisa rebutts that are like, no, what about like, you know, it gives these different examples of like people in distress and people living out of their cars and whatnot. And he replies that none of those unpleasant people are going to be at the recital. And like please stop talking about this.

SPEAKER_01

Right. A very kind of teacher moment where it's just like, oh, stop. Like we'd have a I have a I have something I need to teach, and we're gonna teach this.

SPEAKER_02

I think that's part of sort of the dynamics in this episode of like uh kids are able to have these like ideals and things, and adults are more facing the real world and dealing with the stress of that. And I think this is sort of the first time here in this episode that this comes up, but uh it comes up a little later, and we'll talk about that too. But quick quickly switching over to the the lunchroom, they're eating, they're waiting for the inevitable food fight. Uh I though I love the way these scenes are shown because, especially in this early animation, um, there's just whole watermelons getting thrown during the food fight in the school cafeteria.

SPEAKER_01

Um which is number one, impressive arm strength. Exactly. And number two, where do they get it? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02

Where do they even get this full watermelon? Why did they give that to the kids? Did did you have uh food fights at school growing up?

SPEAKER_01

Um I think we had a couple in high school, but I don't really remember. Um actually in my elementary school, we had a gigantic stoplight, like this big thing, this big electric thing in our cafeteria that was a stoplight. And it would like it would shine green when the noise it was like a noise level thing. Oh and when the noise went up to yellow, everyone was like, uh because if it went to red, we would lose like five minutes of recess or something, and nobody wanted to do it. But then I think at one point one one day, everyone like kind of the masses came came in and said, you know what? We're pushing this thing to red. Let's go. And we did, it went off like eight times, and I think we had to stay in for I don't know, five minutes, and then that these teachers were like, get these kids outside.

SPEAKER_02

Please, please go outside.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Um, but yeah, I always found that even at the time, like weird.

SPEAKER_02

Like, why do we have this? What is happening? They're they're trying to condition you all to uh listen to authority. So indeed. Um but I yeah, I don't remember too much more about food fights or anything. Um I just I remember like one or two sort of breaking out and like not really getting too much into it myself, but like, you know, just the mess that it would make. Like, you know, they you would see like handfuls of spaghetti all of a sudden flying by, and that was a real thing that could happen.

SPEAKER_01

Like Yes, yes. And I think that's what the animators are trying to trying to show. Kind of that the um and it's kids, so you have that sense of wonder and remembrance of it too. So oh my like, you know, the story of like the fish, and the fish gets this big, and I got I caught a fish this big when really, you know, and I think that's probably what they're doing with the food fight scene is like, you know, there's a few muffins thrown and what and some spaghetti, but that when the kids are talking about it on the playground later, there's the way they remember it. Yes. There was a full cake that came across and hit some kid, I don't know who. He's dead now.

SPEAKER_02

So um, yeah. So uh it and Pans to the next scene is another one of these sort of similar school memories of uh dodgeball and gym.

SPEAKER_01

The better with the strong dodgeballs, like they don't use those anymore. Oh, really? Ones that hurt, yeah, yeah. Um made that like thud sound with the hitches, yes. And and this leads up to uh not to go too fast forward with this, but obviously Lisa's sad and doesn't want to play dodgeball. Too sad to play dodgeball. The note that is sent home from the principal. From principal skinner, which it says right on there, they they they give a nice uh close-up of the note, and it's a progress report, it says report. Lisa Simpson doesn't want to play dodgeball because she's sad. And then it's signed Principal Skinner. So there's no issue here. There's no problem. This is just a note of what's happening at school. She doesn't want to play because she's sad.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's an FYI. Um you think about the technology at the time, they they weren't sending you a text message and email and like three different app messages all at the same time if something goes on with your kid. They just have to send a note home with the kid, and that's the only way they could communicate back then.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Definitely an interesting time. You know, nowadays when we have snow days at school, you know, my son has to like kind of log in and say that he's there at school. Maybe do stuff. And but most of the day he can kind of go around and run around outside and stuff. But that wasn't the way it was back then. You know, he you know it was just so much it's kind of kind of wild. And you know, like changing the grade on your paper was something that you could do. You could do. Yeah. You know, because your your parents couldn't log right in and see your grades, you know?

SPEAKER_02

It's weird. It's funny. Yeah. The the access is completely different. And yeah, in some ways there's some good to that, but I think it also does take away some independence.

SPEAKER_01

It certainly does, yeah. And some rebellion too. You know we've all we've all tried to change a grade or two or or not show a grade or two, you know, just hide something. You know, where now I tend to not look at my son's grades too often. It helps that he's a good student. Sure. He's very good student. So I don't really have much concerns with his grades. But um but yeah he's you know can just go and look at anytime you want.

SPEAKER_02

And he he's also like just on the cusp of like where rebellion is going to be a little bit more of a thing as kids get into the teenage years it gets to be a little bit more problematic. So he's still at the point where like he wants to show you the good things and you know tell you about it. But he'll start hiding things soon. Don't you worry Tom it's kind of how your ideas you know how they transition between the dodgeball and the note is that they show Homer and Bart playing the video game and that's the first time we see them playing Super Slug Fest.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

I I assume it's like sort of a knockoff of Mike Tyson's punch out but a little bit more graphically violent.

SPEAKER_01

I was noticing that as well it looks almost exactly like it the the referee looks just like Mario in Mike Tyson's punch out and counts the same way and speaks the same way. Now the players kind of move around a little bit more which is nice but also the music in the background it's not exact but it feels like that that video game music which is pretty pretty classic of the time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah it's funny because it does sort of intersect with like when video games did become a little bit more violent. This was still a couple of years before Mortal Kombat came out but there definitely were hints of that and like the way they could knock each other's heads off and sort of these like the comical endings to the fight.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah one of them where the Homer's character gets knocked down and immediately is in a coffin and then the coffin immediately goes underground and his and a grave pops up. Which is great. I loved playing Mortal Kombat as a kid. I always had to play with the blood turned off you could do that um which was annoying. But I loved it um I was definitely played a lot of Genesis growing up and Mortal Kombat was our uh was our was our jam.

SPEAKER_02

Well yeah I mean that was part of the the divide was that Super Nintendo's Mortal Kombat actually didn't have an option for blood. You you just never had access to blood.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. And um and I also remember a lot of Super Nintendo kids playing more um like Street Fighter. You know so they had both I think I don't know if Street Fighter was on the Genesis or if I just didn't have it. Your parents told you it wasn't. Right. Well and that's the thing now with video games too is kids just pop on and download Fortnite. They don't even have to pay for it. You just have to pay for the stuff in the game. Everything in it. You know and then but anybody can play kind of the basic version of games where back then you actually had to go and buy it and bring it home and plug it in and bring it you know bring a whole the whole cartridge home.

SPEAKER_02

But that was part of the excitement. That is true. That is true. Anyway so they get this game Marge interrupts them with the note and you know they start to sort of process it. Homer's saying that like she doesn't look sad. I don't see tears in her eyes. And and Lisa sort of tries to correct them of like it's not that kind of sad. And Homer's trying to backtrack and you know let her know that oh I I understand I have feelings too but it's just such a such a miss. You know this is uh the plight of the girl dad and trying to figure out you know how do you tune into the little girl's feelings.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And and um and his his two examples of that he has feelings too are I have feelings too just like my stomach hurts or I'm going crazy. Which is interesting as those are the very two the two things he immediately thinks of um where he wants to eat and then also I'm going crazy maybe because he hasn't eaten or um or because he's dealing with losing his keys you know in the door or whatever else. Or having three kids yeah right right yes so I know that's very comical.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah but she's pointing out that like he doesn't get it and that you know she's really having this existential crisis. Like what's the point of living what's the point of being here and it's really uh it's it's pretty deep for a second grader.

SPEAKER_01

Pretty heavy yeah yeah uh Bart uh Homer doesn't know how to deal with this so he punishes Bart because that's his go-to Bart yes Bart Bart certainly catches some strays here um you know and they and when the note came home from the principal Homer immediately thought it was for Bart as well so of course just getting it this episode for no reason.

SPEAKER_02

But maybe it's a side uh you know kind of a kind of a reaction of him beating his dad at this video game so frequently that's right yes there's a lot of uh uh built-up feelings around this and uh Homer does have to do something about it eventually but before we get there they have this um a face off of sibling rivalry where now uh you know uh Bart's vacuuming sucks up the playing cards in the vacuum which is very funny um yeah because I I mean I definitely got in trouble for sucking up things with the vacuum cleaner when I was about that age because I just didn't know what it was capable of. Right and never got never got a full deck of cards.

SPEAKER_01

Certainly Legos and things of that nature and just just you know what I'm just gonna I'm not gonna pick those up I'm just gonna run them over at the vacuum. They're gone now aren't they? Right yeah I cleaned it up that's gone.

SPEAKER_02

That's eight year old logic. I love that there but so um Bart and Maggie or so Bart and Lisa are sort of confronting each other here about who Maggie loves the best.

SPEAKER_01

Right and you can see while Bart is so so Lisa goes off to get a nice bubble bath or whatever and Bart has to vacuum and you can see Maggie sitting on the couch because Marge is up with Lisa. Maggie I don't think they knew what to do with Maggie at this point but they wanted to put her in. So they put her on the couch and Bart is vacuuming and Maggie's like it looks like she's watching him and you kind of wonder like oh is there like a connection here with Bart and Maggie like siblings you know and you know Lisa comes down and they have their whole thing and they argue they start to argue over who Maggie likes better. And it's in the classic you know they they do like the dog thing like one you love the best and Maggie very comically gets up and walks over and hugs the TV.

SPEAKER_02

Hugs the TV yes I remember that uh when I was little as something that was very funny. That like that is even a choice to have the sort of third option um and also just like somewhat like body uh you know it's sort of there's something sort of rude about it as a kid watching that of like that's not really love.

SPEAKER_01

That's just the thing she likes the most the thing she looks at the most right um but you know she watches the happy little elves I'm sure all day long and yeah certainly does love that TV. So that's it is uh a babysitter or primary caregiver right third choice option is always funny to me like oh do you like this or that and it's always and when someone in any any realm of the of of life picks a third option I just I think it's great.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah yeah I'm not gonna settle for the dichotomy you're giving me right exactly get back to the video game um and then uh this is where Lisa's playing her saxophone while they're continue to play their video game at at night. Well loses yeah he loses gets frustrated goes upstairs and yells at Lisa so again he's taking it out on the wrong kid uh he's not directing his feelings appropriately he has feelings that are complicated uh but what he has a hard time doing is tracking where where his reactions are coming from right do you ever experience that you have multiple children do you ever um get so frustrated with one that you end up taking it out on the others yeah all the time I mean the the the first way it comes out is like you go through the list as you're yelling at them where like you say all of the names and they're usually the one that you're yelling at is usually like the third one listed. But yeah, you know they they for the most part my kids are pretty good where like it's usually one of them that's having a hard time and the other two will sort of see it and back away but every once in a while they'll like try to see what they can get away with while I'm dealing with one of those nice nice.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah with my son it's just you know um again he's he's a really good kid so we don't have a lot of those things but then sometimes I'll be like yo dude what like what's going on with this and he'll be upset and I'll be like oh God don't be upset I'm just trying to figure out why you you know didn't throw this in the trash sitting you know like or why you didn't do this or why you didn't do that. So yeah it's definitely a different dynamic one-on-one. Um certainly I've never called it by a different name. Um there are no others.

SPEAKER_02

So well if you were calling him by a different name that's I guess another issue altogether right for sure.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah so then so there's this interaction with Homer and Lisa and she immediately apologizes for playing too loud and asks if she can just like click on like play the sex phone without fingering. Yeah and and and he immediately is like well how loud is it? And it's not loud at all and he thinks he's done this great well go right ahead do that as well.

SPEAKER_02

And it's like dude like this poor girl nobody can really hear her that well I mean Marge is trying to but clearly she's busy she's not the parent uh intervening at this phase she's probably off with Maggie or something. It's hard when you got a a young baby in the house probably pulling her off the TV.

SPEAKER_01

That's right that's right you know it transitions to uh saxophone blues playing in the distance right yes yes and this is an kind of an interesting segue that they chose you she can hear it from her window and she you know ends up going out does she go out the window and then down the she goes out the window and climbs into the treehouse which is very funny.

SPEAKER_02

That they you know they there's not really any safeguard set up that would not allow for that. Like that would be one of the first things I would be thinking about like the kids are eventually going to want to sneak out the window. We can't have anything right outside of it.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. And and then she she w basically follows the music. She wants to hear who's playing the sax phone. She's got her saxophone with her and she travels quite a ways. Like we've seen they live in like very suburban area and she's you know walking by these dark alleys and by a tat tattoo shop or something in the city and she comes across a new character for all of us uh bleeding gums bleeding gums Murphy is playing the saxophone and I believe he's playing on a bridge. And he is playing on a bridge yes and and I looked up online this is this is said to be the same bridge that Homer walked to when when he was depressed which is kind of a kind of an interesting parallel.

SPEAKER_02

But you know there's I think there's also another uh piece to this uh that that I was looking up I was trying to make sense of uh who this character was based off of um and uh he he's from what I understand he's loosely based off of a jazz legend Sonny Rollins uh who is famous in sort of a similar way uh retired from public life like just couldn't take it anymore and then would play the saxophone on the Williamsburg Bridge in in New York and and then ended up you know I I think decades later actually releasing an album based off of that music that he was just practicing on that bridge. So I think that's part of the illusion here is that uh sort of a you know a nod to to Sonny Rollins. So anyway very interesting but I the Bleeding gums Murphy is playing I Never Had in an Italian suit blues, right? Yes which is an another one of these examples here where we're now talking about like the difference in like what kids have to face and what grown ups have to face that or adults have to face and you know Lisa's having this existential childhood sadness about like what's the point of even living. She hasn't really seen that much of the world she's been pretty sheltered um she sort of made her own headway in in some of the uh music that she's played and you know some of the things that she gets to explore but here's this jazz legend right and he's playing that he's never had an Italian suit which seems so trivial but you know it's important to him apparently you know it's a it's a sign of like having money and all of that and and so that's what makes him sad is he doesn't have that thing which is also pretty funny.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. And she's immediately enamored with you know the music and she feels like she can connect with this man. You know, he te he ends up teaching her a little bit, you know um which is great. And you get the sense that Lisa finally feels seen and heard yeah and heard and um and she gets the you know they they play music together um and we get to hear some of Lisa's lyrics for for her jazz. And then um I think part of it um or it might be towards the end you know she says um let me see oh yes the the words of wisdom that I have written down from Bleeding Gums Murphy is jazz isn't about feeling better. It's about other making other people feel worse. Which I thought was very interesting.

SPEAKER_02

Well I think that's a theme that comes up of like how do we share these feelings? How are we together with them? Can you tolerate being together with them? And by giving them to somebody else that's one way that we deal with these feelings.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And I think um you know when you think of music I've I grew up never really being big into music. Um discovered it a little bit later in my life but there are certain songs that will instantly get me in kind of a sad down mode. But I you know I learned to you know but I do enjoy the song so I you know learn to lean into it feel the feelings and then move on um which almost actually kind of helps you process and and feel feel the feelings that you're feeling and work through through it and then you know then the song can change and move on to something else.

SPEAKER_02

That's an important thing Tom and I think it takes people a long time to be able to uh work with that because crappy feelings are crappy. Nobody wants to have them right but they they they're usually some sort of signal and they're saying that something's going on or you know there's something to them and sometimes you have to be with them. Like when you if you lose somebody it's it it sucks to feel sad about it and often we'll just sort of oh we'll move on and like I'll keep myself busy with a new hobby or something. But if you don't feel those feelings you never really get to mourn loss and loss is such an important part of development.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And I feel like Lisa gets to experience that on on this bridge with this strange man she's just met through song and through you know but whatever it is um she's she's feeling seen she's feeling heard and she's being able to work through those feelings on her own where she wasn't getting that at home. Trevor Burrus Right. Nob nobody could see it.

SPEAKER_02

Nobody could tolerate it. It was it was too much for them. And you know some families are built that way and there are mismatches that happen within families and that can be really hard for kids. Absolutely while this is going on into the home where Bart are sorry Homer and Marge are in bed together. Maybe that was my own Freudian slip there, but um Homer's dreaming that he and Bart are in the boxing game. Yes. He wakes up screaming but actually before that Marge is dreaming about when she was little and when she was sad and her mom would tell her to put on a happy face because of how that basically reflects on Marge's mom.

SPEAKER_01

Right and um and I believe this is the first time we've seen um Jacqueline Bouvier um I think Marge's mom and it kind of gives us a little little glimpse as to who Marge is you know just put on a happy face you'll get through this and and that's kind of what she you know she she's obviously up worrying about her daughter which is which is good. It's important she's recognizing that there's a problem she needs to figure out how to fix this but she's looking back at her own experience and feeling that the only way to get through this is to just smile your way through it. And you know that ultimately isn't really helpful.

SPEAKER_02

Well I think this is the big lesson that Marge actually gets out of it is it's not actually her job to to fix it, but more to actually be there with her while she's going with Lisa while she's going through it. And and we don't get there for a little while. There's still a few more steps together. The other thing that sort of stuck out in this is you know again Homer waking up because he's in this boxing game with Bart and he and they're actually the characters and and uh he gets I think knocked out or whatever but he starts screaming he screams sits up and then just lays back down and is back asleep and then March says Homer Homer I think something's wrong um which is really funny. I don't know if uh your son ever had night terrors as a kid but they are such a horrible thing where like they are you know they seem awake there's they're just like shrieking or screaming and they are not there they are there's no like getting through to them there's no talking to them. It mostly just like has to pass and you kind of have to sit with it and it's really more distressing for like the parent or whoever's there watching them.

SPEAKER_01

But clearly Homer experiences something like this where it's uh I remember growing up my brother would my brother would do this a little bit he would he would like sleep walk in talk um and you know and even at a young age he would just kind of like show up in your door and be like what's going on and you'd be like are you all right and he'd be like and then he'd just kind of like go back to bed. You know and you're like right just weird. Yeah hopefully he doesn't still do it. My son will talk in his sleep a little bit. I think I talk in my sleep a little bit um but most usually just kind of nonsense and then right back to sleep not much.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah when it gets to be these night terrors like it it makes me feel like you know things like exorcisms make sense to me that like people would resort to them because like that's what it feels like. It feels like the kid's possessed and like you know they have no idea what's going on. And again they have no memory of it. They wake up and they're just like I slept great last night. Oh nice must be nice um we had we had one once on an airplane I'll save that for another day but that's rough yeah it's gotta be it's gotta be awful. Oof yeah but home Homer's here acknowledging you know getting old is terrible the saddest day of my life was when I realized I could beat my dad at most things and you know lamenting that you know Bart experienced this at so young he was like four when he could beat me at everything. Uh and he's still struggling to figure out how to be a dad. Right? Yes yes I think there's some universality to that there's sometimes where I don't see myself as like the authority figure, but oh shit somebody has to be the authority figure in the room so I guess it's me.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. Yeah I s I struggle with that as well. And I don't I mean I think it's natural not to I I don't think it would be normal for us to be like, oh yeah I'm a great dad you know I'm told I'm a great dad but I don't you know I don't always feel like I'm a great dad um you know because you always think you can do better. You always think you can um there you can handle things differently or whatever. Um I take it um not to not to shoot off in a completely different direction, but I take it odd um when you know as a you know because I'm I'm single um out in the world as a single man. Um and I take it I don't like it when the first thing someone says to me if they show interest in dating me or or whatever, I don't like it when the first thing is oh you're a good dad. And I'm like oh well that's I'm I'm like that's my relationship with my son. What like how you know for dating I'm like don't you but don't you want to like I thought it's a few a few steps down the road maybe. Well that And it's I f I find it as such an indirect thing. Like I I wouldn't go up to a woman and say, Oh, I I hear I hear you're a great nurse, or or I hear you're a great, you know, physical therapist, or a great, you know, whatever they do. Like that's what that's kind of who I am. I don't know, or you're a great gardener. Yeah, yeah. You're great at uh you're great at golf. Yeah, you're great at basketball. I I just don't I view parenting as kind of that's just who number one, it's natural because it's I am a parent, so I have to parent and I want to parent. And and I just find it as a strange thing that that is brought up uh when it comes to dating. Whereas instead of like, oh, I think you're funny, I'd like to get to know you better. Like or I think you're smart, I'd like to get to know you better, or it's like, oh, you're a good dad. I'm like okay.

SPEAKER_02

What do you think that is? Like what are what are they saying for themselves when they say that?

SPEAKER_01

I so I don't know. It's you know, maybe they've had experience with men that aren't good good fathers, and you know, that's what they're looking for. That's you know, and that's fine, or maybe they I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

It's just I mean, I one one thing I would say is like if you knew somebody was a horrible dad, that would probably sort of start to draw a line.

SPEAKER_01

Um Right, that's true. Yeah. I mean, I guess you could say, like, oh, he's you know, he's a good father, so you know, he maybe he's a good person.

SPEAKER_02

But it's yeah, but but I think you're you're right that it's not all of you. You know, it's it's a part of your identity. It's a big part, and that's an important part for you. Um, but it you know, maybe they're putting too much importance on it for you at that stage. Just seems maybe premature for that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, it does. And so I don't know. I don't mean to go off on a tangent here with this, but we're here for tangents. Just something that I've kind of noticed. And and but you're right, in this in this time, you know, Homer is still figuring out how to be a father. And and his kids are his kids are what, 10, 8, and um two or one or whatever Maggie is. Um like that. So uh which that's an interesting gap as well. We'll get to that at some point, I'm sure. There's a large gap between Lisa and and Maggie being born. Um and you never you never know what why or what happened to you. Right. Yeah, we'll find out.

SPEAKER_02

Um But Marge tries to explain that you know Lisa's uh becoming a young woman and and and Homer assumes it's an underwear thing. Oh, it's underwear stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I also kind of get that. Like you're handling it. I'm out of here. Yeah. I think you know, one of the things that for me as a father of girls, um, I actually found it was really helpful that I had sisters growing up. Um there's like a world that happens uh to young girls, around young girls that's a little bit different if you're not ever exposed to it. Um and you know, I think of Homer as I guess a quasi-only child, right? He didn't have siblings growing up. He has a brother, but they didn't grow up together. Um and so there's this whole world that he really just doesn't have any sense of and doesn't know, doesn't know how to even look at it. Uh so he'd rather just have Marge do it.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And that's kind of um you know, making the joke of, oh, it's underwear stuff. Um that's him singularizing that becoming a woman is one thing and one thing only, and it's that, and it has nothing to it has nothing to do with emotional intelligence, the full-free. You know, just growing in the world and being, you know, the whole embodiment of a human has nothing to do with any of that. It's just one particular thing, which you know which you which you wouldn't see him complaining, you know, talking about Bart. Oh, he's starting starting to get facial hair. Oh, that's he's becoming a man. That's the only way you become a man. It's just one singular thing. Or, you know. So it's kind of an interesting um kind of a singularity that he puts on it.

SPEAKER_02

He's he's not a sharp guy, right? No, no. We're learning about that. And he he's actually kind of smarter in the first couple of seasons, and they kind of make it worse as it goes on. But yes, they certainly do, and I think we're gonna see that a lot. There's hints of what he he can and cannot handle. Um cuts to Lisa back on the bridge. Um they're jamming together now. And the and that's sort of the the lesson here in Bleeding Guns Murphy is like, I can just be here and jam with you. And that helps. There's a connection to that. Um But then he as they get to the end of the song, he he sort of retorts, like, you're you play real good for somebody with no real problems.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. Which again is minimizing the children's viewpoint and the then the child's thought process and this whole thing, which is something that we're not we're not supposed to be doing. I think kids' feelings are just as important.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, we we've learned as a society, I think we have learned more since then. Or or maybe we learned it from this. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, maybe.

SPEAKER_02

So Marge pulls up, finds them there, tells them, you know, basically, get in the car, nothing against you. I just fear the unfamiliar. Right. Which is valid, you know, stranger danger, right? The stranger danger, but it also speaks to like the insularity of this household of like we we do things within this house and we go to school, we go to church, and that's all we do. But there's this whole other world out there, and the parents really aren't ready for it. Lisa wants to know more about it, she wants to expand into it, but they're not quite ready for it yet.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah, no, and and I I like that moment too, because Marge did kind of apologize and say, like, look, like I'm not, you know, where I feel like if that happened now, it would be like bleeding gums would be labeled a creep, you know, on the on this bridge where all he was doing was playing music and the at Lisa came up to him.

SPEAKER_02

She came to him, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And he treated her with respect, you know, maybe dismissed some of her feelings a little bit here and there, but um taught her how to play a few things and sang made music with her. Um so it's not a creepy thing at all. It's kind of kind of nice. It's a nice whole thing. She had this moment.

SPEAKER_02

Uh so let's see, we could probably skip a couple of scenes here, but um Marge is clearly concerned about Lisa, right? And she's trying to express this to Homer. Um Bart sort of butts in as they're talking about it, and Marge is trying to like sort of compel him, compel Bart to be nicer to her, um, and to, you know, to sit to be kinder. And Bart's having a hard time with that. Like, I I don't really want to say that, or don't want to say that I love her. Uh, which again, that's that's a hard thing for a little boy that age. Wants to see you in fourth grade and has to say that he loves the sister that's in second grade.

SPEAKER_01

Like, I mean, maybe Bart doesn't know love. He knows surfing and he knows skateboarding, but maybe he doesn't know love going back to the training guards. We'll have to ask Bo. Um But yeah, it's uh it's kind of you know, I like when he says, Um, you know the answer, I know the answer, but don't make me say it. Yeah, he's trying to save face and be cool, which is normal for that age. Of course, of course.

SPEAKER_02

So he tries to cheer her up as as uh as he does with the prank phone call to Mo's.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, another prank phone call. Jacques strap.

SPEAKER_02

Um I just love how furious Mo gets. He's just so angry, and the language that he uses about like tearing him apart and all of that. Uh I love that.

SPEAKER_01

I will note too at this at this point, Mo's tavern is busy. There's a lot of people at the bar. Like you know, you can't see the out, you can't see the tables and whatever else, which you assume from seeing more episodes that it's all empty. But at the bar itself, there's there's like eight, eight or nine people there. It's great. It was a lively place, huh? But there's a woman there too. Usually it's just the men, but there was a woman in that scene. Um, she was at the bar too. So that's an important observation. I watched a lot. I I I used to watch a lot of bar rescue, so I know uh from John Taffer that you know, if women come to your bar, then it's a good bar. That's a good sign, okay.

SPEAKER_02

So Lisa's not amused with the phone call this time. Sometimes it cheers her up, but clearly that's not it. Meanwhile, Homer's on this side mission. He's going to the arcade because he wants to get good at this game. Finds a kid that's beating everybody. He's won 2,000 fights on his original quarter.

SPEAKER_01

Um this is not how arcade games work, but it's kind of a cool notion. Or maybe it was way back then. Maybe they've changed it.

SPEAKER_02

Uh I was trying to like think about that for a little bit. If like each fight was like 15 to 30 seconds, that's still between like 16 and 18 hours that he's there sitting and playing the game. Right. Um But the kid makes Homer bark like a dog in order to be able to play with him. Uh which is fine. He willingly does so. He willingly does it because he you know he's willing to, you know, doesn't need to save face right now. He there's nobody here he knows. He sort of slinks into the arcade. Right if you've gone to the arcade much as an adult, but if you go without kids, you kind of feel like you don't belong there.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, you do. Um yeah. But we go we go once in a while. It's expensive though. These days it's just so expensive, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, it's ridiculous. My kids love those claw games, and it's like two bucks a pop, and they're not, you know, they don't have the coordination for it yet. Oh man. So uh yeah, but Homer learns a lot. Uh you know, playing this kid in the video game. The mom of the kid comes in and sort of scolds him, like, get away from my kid, what are you doing here? And Homer uses the excuse of like, I think I hear my wife calling and backs out. Yeah. So implying that, like, I I'm a married adult man. I'm uh Right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm not doing anything wrong here. I'm just learning how to play this game so I can beat my son.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. But and it cuts again to um Marge driving Lisa to school, right? Right. Um and and she's remembering this dream that she had and sort of recollecting about um what her mother said. So she tells Lisa, I want you to smile today. And um it's what you show on the surface that counts. And and if you do, you'll fit in, you'll get invited to parties, boys will like you, and happiness will follow. It's a shallow happiness that Marge is looking for here.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And and it passed along to her daughter.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Well, these lessons, again, thinking of the times, like I think Marge was supposed to be a child of like the 50s. Uh I think that's probably when she was originally supposed to be born. Um maybe even before that, but some something like that. Um and just the the perspective of the world back then. If you if you smile, good things will come. Um so she drops Lisa off, two boys confront her right away, and they notice, like, hey, nice smile.

SPEAKER_01

Right. They're immediately like, oh, I thought you were I thought you were a nerd, but you're kind of cool when she's giving nonsense answers. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting enough. One of these kids sounds like Nelson Munz. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is almost the exact and it's the one that almost looks a little bit like like a wider version of Bart with that same kind of spiked haircut. Sounds exactly like Nelson Munz. Um, I I had looked away from the TV for a moment and then he spoke and he was like, oh no, Nelson's in this episode. And and it was like, oh God. And I I watched the that whole scene with my eyes shut, and it's Nelson Munz. The voice Nelson. Um but it's not, obviously. Um I wonder if that was kind of bully. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if they weren't sure if they were gonna keep Nelson on or what was gonna happen. And that was just kind of a voice that they use. But I thought that was an interesting kind of grab during that.

SPEAKER_02

So a lot of that Yeah, a lot of that main cast of characters sort of uh do all the ancillary characters as well. Uh so it's funny, especially in the early years, the the overlap that you hear between them. So one of the kids that invites her over so he can do his homework. Uh the music teacher talks about how she doesn't need to have any of these crazy outbursts again. And March hears all this and basically circles back around, snatches her back into the car. Um and the the teacher sort of replies, like, Oh, that's where she gets it from. Right, right. A little a little bit uh sexist, chauvinistic sort of response there. But uh March apologizes, right? And and I think this is the important recognition. She tells her to be herself. Uh, and if you want to be sad, be sad. That's okay. We'll ride it out with you. We're gonna be here with you.

SPEAKER_01

I'll be here with you, right. Which is really the most important thing when you're going through a uh time where you're sad is just having someone there, um just to listen and to just to be there. Yeah. Not someone to solve the problems and tell you what to do. Just understand that this is this will pass and I'm right here with you. So Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think it's an important uh developmental piece for Marge here as a parent to sort of learn about this herself. Um even the line, you know, let me do the smiling for both of us. I I found that to be that that resonated with me because I work with a lot of people that get pretty hopeless. Um and and there's times where I'll kind of have to say, like, I'll be the one that holds on to the hope right now, because you know, it's you're in a shitty spot and I understand where you're at, and and things get better. I've got the privilege working with a lot of people like that where I do see people get better from it all of the time. But when you're in it and when you're depressed, like it doesn't feel like it's ever gonna get better, and you don't want to hear that.

SPEAKER_01

It's tough to see outside of kind of that tunnel vision of um despair or or or glum if you're using your glum toothpaste. Um it's tough, it's tough to look beyond that. So um it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, it cuts again to seeing a Bart and Homer playing, you know, they're bonding over this game, which is wonderful, but uh clearly it's it uh stirs up some of the dynamics between them, some of the competition between them. Uh Bart's unsuspecting, he starts losing, he's starting to get panicked a little bit. March tries to come in to say, like, you know, I sort of made a breakthrough with uh Lisa, I want to talk about it. We got some ideas of things we can do, and Homer just yells, Be quiet, March.

SPEAKER_01

And uh and Homer goes on this like rampage with the joystick, with the button. He's doing great, he's and he is about to knock out Bart for the first time, and he feels so good about it. And the scene literally goes to his character just about to hit him, and it's almost like the uh spoiler alert, it's almost like the end of Sopranos where it goes black, you know. And um, and Marge has unplugged the TV. He's just like, and and Homer is devastated. And I think devastated. And looking back as a child, I think this moment for Bart was hilarious to me because he immediately decides to retire from video game boxing.

SPEAKER_02

He's never playing this again.

SPEAKER_01

As undefeated, he'll never play again, and which is just hilarious. Um, kind of maintaining that dominance over his dad, even though he knows he was about to lose.

SPEAKER_02

You know, he he he could actually put up a good fight now. There'd be room for competition, that would be healthy, there'd be growth with the two of them if they had some back and forth like that, but he just steps away. No, no, poor Homer in that moment, right? But Marge does acknowledge this is more important, right? And and I think that's a important thing there. Yeah. So they have the idea of going to the jazz clip, right? That's Lisa's idea. She thought it would be good for the whole family. Blood and gums, Murphy is playing, playing her song. Um and you know, the family's hearing it for the first time and like seeing a little bit of how she sees them, um, and about how her dad belongs in the zoo and all of that. So get mad, but he's shocked. He's shocked for a moment. And and sometimes when we're sort of faced with the mirror of like how we're behaving, um, that can be that can feel shocking.

SPEAKER_01

Uh for sure.

SPEAKER_02

That's fair.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yep. And I do like the the last line in her um in her song that he sings as well, is that she's the saddest kid in grade number two. Um I just love the I love the line. Um so kind of rhyming with my dad belongs in the zoo, the line before. Um, but she's singing about her about her family, you know. She's yeah, she's got a brother that's, you know, a brat, and she's gonna, you know, she's just the result of her family life leads her to be the sad kid, you know. Um leaves her longing for more. There's a lot of there's a lot of uh growth here with Marge and Lisa. And I think I think after seeing this episode, I think we're confident that Lisa's gonna be okay. And that she kind of knows her place a little bit more, and you know, she feels appreciated at least with with her mom. And uh and and that's important for kids to have a safe space.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, she's predisposed to episodes of depression, and that's okay. You know, we can have these things happen. It's uh it's a fact of life for a lot of people, and uh life goes on, you know. It it doesn't mean it's the end of the world. If you face a depression, they they can come and go. And and we get to see one of hers early in the series here. So that sort of wraps up this episode. Um next. Well, I mean, you you've talked about the ratings, huh? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, so one thing I wanted to mention too is there's one part of this episode that we that we missed that I want to um go back and I kind of forgot about. It's when um there's an there's a scene early on where Homer's watching the news. And there's just been this fire in Springfield. Downtown Springfield. This fire is raging in downtown Springfield, knocking out all of these businesses, and it knocks out the the Fine Symphony Hall, the Springfield Natural History Museum, the Springfield Art Center, and Barney's Bollarama. Which then Homer is in tears. Oh no, Bollar Rama. Um which I thought is hilarious. And I I assume Barney's Bowlerama is owned by Barney Gumble.

SPEAKER_02

Is that I think it I think it I thought it was his uncle that actually owned it, but yeah, you know, maybe they just named it after him. It's like naming a boat or something.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Um, but I thought that was interesting, kind of kind of showing Homer being a simple person, you know, what affects him directly is the bigger issue here, not the fact that we've lost the Springfield Natural History Museum.

SPEAKER_02

And he also just assumes Marge would also be just as upset about losing the bowling alley.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yes. And um another thing I had I had looked up about this is that um I was I was wondering what the origins of the episode. And I apparently James L. Brooks wrote this episode because he wanted to write an episode where Lisa was sad for no reason. That's how he put it. Um and obviously he had to discover a reason, and um, which we don't really get the full reasoning here, you know, maybe just about her place in the family or whatever. Um but this was originally a script that he wrote for the show Taxi, um which he was yeah, which he was a co-creator of um and executive producer on from 1978 to 1983. So he so this had this had been his idea. He's been sitting, yeah. Yeah, and it was an episode of I didn't watch Taxi, so I'm I apologize for all those taxi fans listening. Um but that there was supposed to be an episode where the character Alex in Taxi was sad for no reason. Um and he ended up using it later um in Simpsons, which is which I thought was interesting, but it's again it's that creative mind, you know, like you have these ideas and you want to get them out. Get it out somewhere. You can get it out somewhere, and that's kind of how he did. Um as for ratings for this episode, the IMDB rating on this episode was 7.6 out of 10, um, which is pretty strong. We had seen some 7. I think uh Bertha General was 7.9. I don't have the full list with me, but uh but a pretty strong, uh strong episode, as we've seen, you know, so far. They've all been between that 7.3 and 8.1 um out of 10 range. So I think that's still accurate. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02

Important world building, I think, yeah, and you know, making sense of uh who the characters are. Um yeah, I I like this idea of like the the pr depression out of nowhere uh sort of thing. Um because that that can be how it it hits people, right? It sometimes does feel like it's out of nowhere. Sometimes it's sort of a reaction to certain circumstances. Um but it's rarely like this completely linear thing that like I'm sad and I'm depressed now because this thing happened. Um it's usually a little bit more complex than that, or a lot more complex than that. So uh I'm glad that they they make an effort to show that. And uh that that you know, so much time and space went into making sure James L. Brooks could share this message with the world.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, so I think, you know, I think in in life, depression pops in and out of people's lives randomly all the time, you know. And it's important to to recognize and talk about and and to to understand how to work through it. Um, like like listening to that sad song. So um but yeah, so next week we will talk about season one, episode seven, which is The Call of the Simpsons. Uh yes. Um, referencing the Sopranos, kind of the Pine Barons episode where Polly and um and Christopher are out in the woods. We're gonna see Homer and Bart out in the woods.

SPEAKER_02

Um boy, yes. It all comes back to the Sopranos, doesn't that? Well, you know the heart likes what the heart likes. That's right. That's right. Nothing wrong with that. I love that. So I know that's another exciting episode. Um I'm looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, only and you know, this first season is only 13 episodes, so this will mark the you know, kind of the passing of the halfway point um of the first season. So we're having fun with this. We hope you guys are too. And uh thank you for tuning in and uh listening to us go. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

And uh yeah, I guess we'll see you guys next time unless you got any final thoughts. I don't. I think uh I'm I'm enjoying doing this. I like that we get to talk about this in a few different lenses and making sense of this as it uh relates to our lives and our experiences as as dads and formerly as boys, now as quote unquote men, uh whatever we are. Uh so it's uh it's been a lot of fun. So let's keep going.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And our yeah, so next week our unnamed podcast will continue. We'll find a name for you guys, folks. Don't worry about it. But all right, see you guys. Bye.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for listening to Donuts on the Couch, growing up on Evergreen Terrace, yet another Simpsons Rewatch podcast.