.png)
THE DIRT WITH ALPINE CIVIL CONSULTING
The Dirt is where the conversations start below the surface, bringing together the people, projects, and perspectives that shape the civil construction industry. Hosted by Alpine Civil Consulting, we dig into everything from heavy civil projects to jobsite lessons, and challenges -- the real-world industry insights, and the people who know that every great project starts with a little dirt.
THE DIRT WITH ALPINE CIVIL CONSULTING
Is the Project Constructible?
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Neil and Shane explore why a project may not be constructible, where the extra costs come from, and when to get a consultant involved.
Morning, Shane. Good morning, Neil. So remember when we first met, was on that project in Shoreline. You were doing the dirt, we were doing the utilities, and I come on site and there's this giant hole opened up on the project, right? And you're pushing dirt, garbage, loading that out. Long story short, there were a couple of boring test pits, but they didn't do any where the building was going. Absolutely. Come to find out later, that used to be like the neighborhood dump site.
SPEAKER_00For years they were dumping everything in that hole.
SPEAKER_01Cost the owners thousands of dollars.
SPEAKER_00Thousands. I I can't remember what it was, but I think it was somewhere close to 80 grand of dump fees.
SPEAKER_01Right. So had had they done a couple more bore pets or test holes, they that situation wouldn't have changed, but at least they could have budgeted for that, right? Absolutely. Unforeseen conditions like that bite you every time. Welcome to the dirt with Alpine Civil Consulting, the podcast where we dig into the people, projects, and problems that shape the world beneath our feet. I'm Neil Tastad.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Shane Crosby. Between us, we've spent decades in heavy civil construction solving problems that most people never see. This podcast is for contractors, developers, engineers, municipalities, architects, and anyone curious about what really goes on in the building, a successful project.
SPEAKER_01If you ever wondered why projects go over budget, get delayed, or run into unexpected issues, you're in the right place. Let's dig in.
SPEAKER_00So as we discussed earlier about a particular project that Neil and I met on, a couple of things were missed on that project, as Neil touched on. Lack of specific bore pits in the location of the building, which bit everybody. Time, money, which is a headache. Most of these projects go over bid because of these missed opportunities that could have been caught on day one with a little bit more constructibility done. Don't you agree, Neil?
SPEAKER_01I do. So why do over 40% of civil projects go over budget? Usually because the right people aren't in the room on day one. You're right.
SPEAKER_00And statistics say 40%, but you and I know with the experience that we have that almost every project has the same hiccup. We're now digging ground that's been dug and used prior. The days of open ground is done. Lack of constructibility on these projects today cost everybody contractor, developer, owner, everybody. So not catching these things up front, not overlaying the project to see what was there before hurts the schedule and cost everybody time and money.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's not necessarily that the costs aren't there for the project. They're just not being budgeted for, right?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Some of the stuff can be caught just in the design phase of the project. Not having a civil consultant with boots on the ground experience on a project from day one hurts the whole project as a whole.
SPEAKER_01So, Shane, what do you what do you mean when you say boots on the ground experience?
SPEAKER_00Well, Neil, you and I have over 60 years of experience, and we've seen, we don't know everything, but we've seen a lot. We have you know, and and the boots on the ground experience is just that. We've been in the trenches, we've dealt with these problems on a day-to-day basis on every single project we've done. You and I have been working together now over 15 years, working up to 17 years, I think, in a few or 16 years, excuse me, in the next couple of months. Name one project where this wasn't an issue. Yeah, it's it's every project. Recently had a project. We got the job, we went out and we looked at it. And day one, with an approved set of plans, we already knew just looking at the job, it wasn't going to work. Why was that? Why was it? No boots on the background experience. Civil engineer did a fantastic job designing the project, but didn't know overlay what was already in the ground.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so how does that happen? So lack of what as built, um, locates?
SPEAKER_00A couple of things, right? Lack of experience in the field, lack of knowledge of the utilities that are already in the ground. In the designing process, if they're not doing a locate on the project to see what's existing in the ground, how can they actually design a project?
SPEAKER_01Right. So that goes back to the start of the whole process. So how do how does this start? So it starts with what a concept, a design, starts with a budget. Maybe the architects, engineers are given a budget and they're trying to fit this design within that budget, right? I'm I'm guessing.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Well, but it brings to mind one of the biggest pet peeves in this vendor for me, which is low bid gets the job, right? That knows every faculty of the job from engineering to general to the dirt contractor doing the work, right?
SPEAKER_01Right, but but let's back up to the the design stage where if if you have a limited budget to do the design, you're gonna get, are you gonna go out there and just go off as builds? Are you even gonna have as builds provided? Sometimes they're not provided, right? If you're doing uh some road work, how about do locates? Wow, that was a concept. Locates and then hire a contractor to go out and potholes. So you got invert elevations of utilities, you know what's in the ground, then you can design the project.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it wasn't very long ago that you and I were involved in a project, and again, I'm not gonna mention names or locations, but day one we walk out on the project and they had all these saved trees, and the very first tree I looked at that was supposed to be a saved tree, was 45-degree angle over the top of the project. Right. You and I looked at each other, we're like, well, that's not gonna happen. The engineer designed it off of Google Earth, no boots on the ground, nobody walked out there and looked at it.
SPEAKER_01But again, why why is that happening?
SPEAKER_00Lack of experience, maybe the industry's changing. I I'm not exactly sure. This is this is the frustration I think every contractor has right now. Actually, maybe not the contractor as much as the owner developer, because they're now gonna get hit with the almighty extra.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Which unfortunately in our industry becomes the norm. With the consultants such as Alpine Civil Consulting, allow us to do a deep dive onto the project, say thousands of dollars by spending pennies up front with somebody to take a look at the project, see if their design, their dream is even possible.
SPEAKER_01If it's constructible.
SPEAKER_00If it's constructible. I mean, it wasn't very long ago. I had a conversation with an engineer who said, Shane, I'm I want imagine I'm building this house and I want you to build the house the way I designed it. I want to build the house the way you designed it. I just got to make sure it's gonna stand up.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it's gotta fit within the project. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's it's sometimes frustrating that that we we see this time and time again, almost every single project.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if we could get involved early and and lay out the the issues that we see, by the time it goes to the bid build process, hopefully a lot of these issues are flushed out. Not that the costs are gonna go away, but at least the owner has an idea of hey, this this is a more realistic budget for my project.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. Every time we see here's the engineer's estimate on a project, but if they haven't done a complete constructability study on the project prior to designing it, that budget's kind of not there. Yeah, it kind of leaves an open door for these changes.
SPEAKER_01And then what happens during the course of the the project, Lil Bid gets gets the work right, and then it's change order, change order, change order, which the owners the project, donors getting hit, the general contractors getting hit, the subcontractors are getting hit, everyone down the line is being asked to participate in the costs. The one word we can't stand is the contractor, participate. Especially when when we don't have any say in the upfront design constructibility of that project.
SPEAKER_00Or in the back end, we don't get any profit when the project's done. Our profit's in the design we do, the work we do, the job that was bid.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the quicker we can get in and out of a project, the more profitable it is. Way more profitable.
SPEAKER_00Everybody wants to hang their hat on change orders and TM stuff, but at the end of the day, the paperwork mill that's got to go through the office eats that up alive. There's no profit.
SPEAKER_01No. So Shane, we talked about where the money is being spent on these projects. Seems like they're being spent starting at the bid-build process towards the end of the project or middle start, what have you, in change orders, that money should be shifted towards the beginning of the project. So is it ever too early to get a civil consultant involved in these?
SPEAKER_00It's never too early to get a company like Alpine Civil Consulting in there. The earlier the better. The faster we can get in there to catch it and see design and help out where we see the need.
SPEAKER_01So in our next episode, we'll deconstruct a constructability study that we put together on a local project where we go into more specifics on what we found outside of the plans, outside of the geotech reports. We go into the permitting or extra permitting that was necessary for this project. Um, and then as well as the I shouldn't say extra cost, but the cost that wouldn't have been identified had we not done this report.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. So until next time, I'm Jayne Crosby.
SPEAKER_01I'm Neil Tastad.
SPEAKER_00This is the dirt.
SPEAKER_01Keep digging.
SPEAKER_00And just a quick reminder if you have any questions or concerns, you can reach out to us on our website or email our team and follow us on our LinkedIn, Instagram, and other social media platforms. Thank you.
