Kylie Walker - STEMM sector peak body CEO extraordinaire

Keywords

STEM, diversity, leadership, policy, research funding, innovation, education, technology, engineering, Australia geopolitical shifts, research opportunities, philanthropy, investment, R&D, imposter syndrome, trust in science, indigenous knowledge systems, future perspectives, Australia

Summary

In this conversation, Kylie Walker, CEO of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering, discusses her role in promoting STEM across diverse sectors, the importance of inclusivity in education, and the challenges faced in policy and research funding. She emphasizes the need for a shift in how research is valued and funded in Australia, advocating for a culture that encourages risk-taking and innovation. The discussion also highlights the Elevate program aimed at supporting diverse individuals entering STEM fields and the potential for Australia to seize global opportunities in research and technology. In this conversation, Kylie discusses the impact of geopolitical shifts on research funding, particularly in Australia, and the opportunities that arise from these changes. She emphasizes the importance of philanthropy and investment in R&D, while also addressing the challenges of navigating imposter syndrome in professional settings. The discussion touches on the need to restore trust in science and the potential of integrating Indigenous knowledge systems into future research methodologies.

Takeaways

Kylie Walker is the CEO of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering.

STEM workforce is diverse and extends beyond traditional research roles.

The Elevate program supports individuals from various backgrounds to enter STEM fields.

Passion and drive are key criteria for the Elevate program.

Mature age students often have a clearer purpose in their studies.

Kylie measures her success by the satisfaction of her members and the impact on systemic issues.

There is a need for a cultural shift in how research funding is perceived in Australia.

The current funding system often favours established researchers over innovative ideas.

Australia has the potential to lead in global research and technology.

Kylie sees exciting opportunities for Australia in the evolving global landscape. Geopolitical shifts are creating uncertainty in research funding.

Australia's stability presents an opportunity for global research.

Philanthropy in Australia lacks established pathways for investment.

Navigating imposter syndrome is a common challenge for professionals.

Owning one's space is crucial in leadership roles.

Imposter syndrome can serve as a motivating fuel.

Trust in science is often a reflection of communication issues.

Indigenous knowledge systems offer valuable perspectives for research.

Weaving different knowledge systems can enhance understanding.

The future of knowledge transmission is still in its infancy.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background of Kylie Walker

02:58 The Role of STEM in Diverse Sectors

05:59 Elevate Program and Diversity in STEM

08:58 Measuring Success in Leadership Roles

11:50 Challenges in Policy and Research Funding

14:59 The Need for Risk-Taking in Research

18:05 Opportunities for Australia in Global Context

18:28 Geopolitical Shifts and Research Opportunities

21:22 Philanthropy and Investment in R&D

23:50 Navigating Imposter Syndrome

28:49 Restoring Trust in Science

33:23 Indigenous Knowledge Systems and Future Perspectives

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Despite, or maybe because of her pedigree in executive and advocacy roles, Kylie Walker is a very well-grounded, good-humoured, and amazingly open human being. When I caught up with her, she was just in the final month of being the CEO of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering. Originally she was a journalist, but since then she's been a key leader and advocate in the STEM sector for more than two decades, and she's had many high-profile roles, including the CEO of Science and Technology Australia, the chair of the Australian National Commission for UNESCO, and she was director of communications and outreach at the Australian Academy of Science. For this and many other of her good works, she's been awarded an honorary doctorate from Charleston University, a professorial fellowship at Flinders University, and is also a member of the Order of Australia for services to science communication and advocacy. My conversation with her ranged widely. We went from not giving up on the never-ending battle to push RD as an investment, not an expense, to how the perception that there is a falling trust in science may reflect a self-esteem problem in the greater sector. The STEM sector maybe needs to own the space and be a little more confident of its worth. Something to consider. We also talked about the unambiguous truth that successful people care about what they do. But most of all, this interview reminds me that no matter how many accolades you have, nothing is as sweet as beating family members at board games. I'm Rod Lambert, a veteran science communicator with nearly 30 years of teaching, learning, and doing SICOM under his belt. My chat with Kylie coming up next on Science with Benefits. STEM sector insights from the people who know. Hello, Kylie Walker. Thank you so much for coming and playing with me. I'm really looking forward to talking to you on this podcast because I haven't talked to you on a podcast for probably 12 years or something.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Sounds about right to me. It's always a pleasure to talk to you, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:04

We'll see if we can fix that. Give it your best shot. I don't want you to to like give us the full spiel, but at the moment, can you just tell us what you do, your job title, but also what you actually do?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah. A few things actually. So at the moment I'm CEO of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering, one of Australia's five learned academies, and our fellows are high achievers in applied science, technology and engineering across a whole range of different sectors. So as CEO, I have the privilege and the pleasure of working with them to bring independent evidence-based advice to government and other decision makers. Also to run a range of programs which are um aimed at, I guess, getting a diverse and committed group of people in to the STEM workforce, wherever that might go. And to my mind and to Atsy's mind, the STEM workforce is a very broad and diverse place. It it goes into all kinds of nooks and crannies in sectors that you might not immediately think of, like construction, for example, or obviously, you know, energy and minerals and all sorts of things.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

When you start to talk about the nooks and crannies, I think that's quite interesting because I mean the purpose of this podcast is to talk about I didn't think of this before, but the nooks and crannies, like not just the bench scientists, not just the people like me who bark around as science communicators, but deeper and wider than that, because these are the people I think don't get heard from much.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

And I think actually the majority of people who are qualified in STEM don't end up being in research, right? They end up going to other jobs. And that's the place that interests me because they're bringing those skill sets and that way of looking at the world into workplaces that I think they're potentially their teachers don't even imagine. And they they do some pretty interesting things. I I've learned a lot working with civil engineering companies with some really spectacular and curious leaders in the mineral sector, people who are thinking in new and interesting ways about what to do with things like offshore oil and gas platforms once they come to the end of their life, people who are looking at rewilding former urban centres or growing food in places that uh it's been difficult to grow in, you know, all kinds of interesting stuff going on out there. And I think one of the things I love about working with the fellows of this academy is that they are really interested in making the world a better place and using, you know, applying science and technology and engineering to do that.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

I love that ditto. I mean, I was never a bench scientist myself, and you weren't either, were you?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

No, no. I started my life as a communicator. I was a journalist for the first decade of my career.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

And I see a lot of similarity there, right? You know, as a journalist, you you you you're kind of investigating and unearthing truths and then bringing them to light and telling the world about them, and scientists kind of do the same thing, right? So it's always been a passion of mine to learn about science and technology. And so being able to be in a position where I get the best of both worlds. I don't actually have to do the stuff, the hard stuff. I just get to l to learn about it and hear about it and help the people who are doing it to tell their stories and and like them, I want to make this world a better place.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

I absolutely get it. And I kind of my excuse is yeah, I want to do research, but I want to do the research on other people's work and talk about that rather than do my own little bit. And I try to make that sound like a feature, not a bug.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Well, I've had, you know, I've been described as a dilettante or a renaissance woman or a classicalist. I'm happy with any of them.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

You can sword, fight, and ride horses as well if you're ready to.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

And just yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

And obviously portraiture. I think portraiture's critical.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Definitely portraiture, yes. And and I can I can make all kinds of interesting medieval machinery.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

That's a different podcast, but I appreciate it. So you've worked for how many different science, tech, etc. supporting bodies? Quite a few?

SPEAKER_00 5:50

So in a really strict sense, three. So before this place, I was at Science and Technology Australia and I was the CEO there. And prior to that, I was the director of communications and outreach at the Australian Academy of Science.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

But I also worked in sort of medicine and health peak bodies for a little while before that as well. So definitely science-powered. I would say STEM sector adjacent. But it's been, you know, a good 22 years or so of of advocacy in communications for the people and products of science and technology.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Yeah, I just think it's cool. I'm just impressed. Because I mean, the part of the reason I want to talk to people like you is people who are interested, supportive, passionate, intrigued, etc., about the whole sci-tech thing, who think they can't do it because they're not science and technologists. They're not like there's a dearth of information out there for such folk. So I'm hoping to help plug that little gap a little.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

One of the things I love about uh one of the programs we have, the Elevate program, which is a scholarships initiative to help people who may struggle a little bit to get into STEM degrees, not because they don't have the intellectual capacity or the will, but because of life circumstances. One of the things I love about this program is that our key selection criteria, as well as having gained entry to a relevant degree at an Australian university, is passion and drive. And so we are seeing um a lot of people coming through into that program who uh I honestly it's blown me away the diversity and the breadth of the backgrounds that they have. And you know, one of my favorites is uh a woman in her 40s who's been a truck driver and she's just gone, I've always wanted to study physics.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

Sweet, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

And hey presto, we've given her an entryway to do that. And and the key criteria is drive and passion. You've got people from all walks of life who are, you know, working their guts out to do really, really well in their degrees, and the retention rates are through the roof. So they have that drive and that passion. But it it also means that they're bringing incredibly diverse perspectives to asking those questions and solving those problems, which is the bread and butter, of course, of science and research.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

And it's not just because of their their intersectionality, but it's also because of the lives that they've led and the things that they've done before they came to science.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

Yep, totally agree. I mean, obviously it's in my interest to say you need to bring mature people into your world as well, but it's definitely been my experience from an academic point of view in particular. The mature age students are the ones who know why they are there.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Whereas the youths often don't. And that's fair enough, you're not supposed to yet. Yeah. Never stop, never stop. Different kind of question then. How do you in a role like yours, you personally how do you know when you've done a good job or you are doing a good job? And I don't mean necessarily traditional indicators, but what does a good job look like or feel like to you in this kind of role?

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Oh, there are lots of ways to answer that question, Rod. I mean You choose. I I I think so the easy way to answer it is that I know that because I work for a membership organization, essentially. It's an elite one, but it is a membership organization. Because I work for a an outfit like that, if the members think I'm doing a good job, then I'm doing a good job. That's the easy way to answer that. Um and I I think they are, you know. I think the fellows are um for for the most part very, very happy with the way that Atsy moves and works in the world. My own personal indicator of a good job is, well, there are probably two big goals I had when I came into this job. One is to shift the dial on some of those big systemic hairy problems where I can see that there is a better way to do the business of managing research, funding research, organizing research. That's kind of my specialty if I have one. It's not the actual disciplines themselves. And if I'm not shifting the dial on some of those big challenges, then I feel like I'm not doing my job. And uh you've got to kind of be comfortable with incremental wins in that space because the system is big and complex and has many players and it's hard to shift. Yeah. And and the I guess the other way is kind of going back out through the fellowship and down into the sectors where they are leaders. One of my goals when I came to ATSI was I looked at this phenomenal group of 900 or so people who are running companies or research institutes or public service departments or universities or publicly funded research agencies. And I thought, my goodness, what an incredible network to make change. If I can bring at least some of those people along with bringing that highly informed, inclusive, values-driven approach to leadership to our broader sector, then it will make a difference, you know, the multiplier effect for the difference that that makes for thousands, potentially tens, hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of people in the workforce and therefore the work that they are able to do. I think that's the really exciting potential and goal for this job. So that was my mega goal for the for for this role.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

Yeah. I know a lot of people will make these noble claims, but the people I know in this sector mean it, honestly. That's been my impression. People don't go into this world of engage with STEM and and and all the related disciplines if they don't mean it.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Which is not I don't I don't think that you'd really want to be in this sector if you weren't passionate about it, honestly. It's you know, there's a lot of hard work, there's a lot of deep reward, but you've got to work at it. And um and I can see some differences being made. I'm really, really proud of the small part that I've play played in some of that stuff, you know. I I know that we've got more tech companies today than we did 10 years ago that have gender equity at every level and in every role type. I know that we've got more engineering companies that are genuinely recruiting for diverse entry-level jobs, and they are genuinely interested in promoting women and people from diverse backgrounds at the mid-career level. And they're really thinking very hard about learning more about themselves and being honest about how their policies and practices and unintended kind of culture if affected their workforce. So there are there is change being made. I'm not taking sole credit for it, but I do think I've played a small part in it.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

I believe you had from my perspective, I would endorse that for what my endorsement is worth, but you're welcome to have it.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Um I love your endorsement. Thank you, Rod.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

They can take that to the bank and they'll you walk out with the same amount of money you walked in with you. Beautiful. Maybe a little less. Personal query here, because in my time in Scicom and related fields, and I'm in Canberra, a lot of policy people, policy influencers, policy submitters, etc. etc. I confess, particularly of late, I'm thinking how much of this is a shrieking into the darkness and hoping for a result. Like I I assume ATSI does a lot of policy work and policy submissions and commentary, which is right and proper. But is it just annoying? Like, can you give me a flavour of that? Because I I get cross-eyed when I think about that kind of work.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

I it can be exhausting, I think, more than annoying, because it there is uh the the beast is big and complex and the players are always changing. And um, you know, I've lost count of the number of policymakers that I have educated about their own Bailey Week. Um and the number of times that um that you know I and and many others asked for a strategic examination of the way that we fund research and development, for example. For example. Over the last 15 or so years, it's you do start to feel like you're screaming into the void, but then every now and then something lands and something changes, and it does feel worth it. I think the one that I I f I think that I'm still waiting to see whether the ambitious Australia report will actually gain momentum and whether the government will have the courage to implement it or something like it. Because there is a lot of fuss and bother and replication and internal tension in the way that we federally fund RD. It could be a lot neater and there could be a lot more administrative time on both sides of the equation freed up so that people can just get on with the job of research. Um so I don't know whether that's going to land or not, but the one that I think I I feel like none of us have made headway on in the last 20 years is the for a quantum of investment that this government makes in research. And it's not for lack of trying. And my goodness, we've tried in so many different ways with so many different people and so many different levers. And you know, it does get very frustrating when the answer keeps coming back with, well, you've just got to package it differently, or you've just got to influence it in a particular way. And I think, no, I've been here long enough to know that I've tried all of that, and so is everyone else. Um, it's not a matter of get better at selling yourself, it's a matter of how do we as a nation value and perceive the way that we fund research? How do we see that in terms of a value proposition? And unfortunately, the answer still is we see it as a drain on resources rather than we see it as an investment in a strong future, which is what it should be seen as. And where the clever countries around the world, the genuinely clever countries around the world, have been positioning it for some time. And for that reason, they are gaining momentum on their lead against Australia. And I felt it urgent 20 years ago to um significantly uplift the quantum of investment in research. It is even more urgent now. It doesn't all have to come from government. There are plenty of other places that it should and can come from. But government has a major role in not just investing the money, but in signalling that it's worth doing and in crafting the policy settings to incentivize and reward others to do the same.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Very good answer. I find myself nodding to the point of getting a strained neck, because I agree with you. That's been my experience as well. We've not moved the dial on funding. I I don't know what the secret is either. And I get tired of hearing things like the old school days of Twitter, hashtag make viral or hashtag change the culture. And when I hear people who are very intelligent in their own realms make these kinds of cries or demands, I think you have to acknowledge it, you don't have expertise in what that means and how outrageously complicated that kind of comment actually is. It's driven me crazy for years, but I haven't had to implement it in the same way that you've had to try.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Yeah, I mean I I it's almost to the point where, and I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I do feel like there's a deliberate strategy to keep the sector, the research sector, in such a state of scarcity at all times that they are too busy scrabbling over scraps to unify and speak with one voice and change the dial significantly. But nor should it be it entirely incumbent on the sector to make the case for itself. You know, a sophisticated national leadership would understand that this is an important and and in fact, I think, non-negotiable investment to make.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Yeah, and I think also I'd have to say it's the risk thing. The risk word has also driven me crazy for quite some time because when I hear different kinds of organizations, different kinds of people talk about what are the relative risks for this, etc., etc. Or I hear worse, I hear people saying, oh no, we want people who are risk takers. And I think the brackets after that comment, in my experience, has been as long as the risk pays off. They don't say that bit out loud, but that has always been my impression, especially with larger organizations who have a lot of institutional inertia, they're not really into taking risks because they don't think they can or they think they're not a problem.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

But also the system the system doesn't support risk taking either. You know, we reward with government-funded grants, we reward the people who have a track record. We reward give the grants to people who can prove that they're incrementally advancing something that's a pretty safe bet. We're not very good. Occasionally there's a little program that kind of has a bit of a dalliance in um in you know, wild ideas and new players. But we're as a system, we're not very good. And as a country, I think we're pretty safety vest culture, but we're not very good at saying, no, we're deliberately going to curate this risk taking, we're going to reward it, we're going to incentivise it, we're going to protect it in such a way that it doesn't actually feel like a major personal risk for each player who enters into it. Um and I think that's probably the cultural misstep that Australia has got wrong. And that's not just in research. But I think there's a really big opportunity here. Um, while the government is resetting, and and I really do hope that they are bold and visionary in terms of this opportunity for a major reset for the system and the way that it's funded. Let's see how it goes over the next couple of years. But while that's happening, I think there's also an opportunity that's um that's growing for Australia um on a broader global context. And I'd really, I'd love to kind of meander a little bit through that one with you because um I can see all kinds of threads starting to come together there where I think that with it's actually getting quite exciting.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

So do you want to pick at a thread or two or should we should I stop recording for that?

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Yeah, no, no, let's go there. I mean, so we know that there's a the geopolitical shifts globally are creating an atmosphere of uncertainty and of fear in the northern hemisphere right now.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

At the same time, you've got that those same kind of forces at play to a lesser extent in the southern hemisphere, but we've also got more of a climate risk awareness in the southern hemisphere, and that's driving different behaviours. So there's a lot of stuff that's up in the air and change has become the new normal. And because of that, and because of what's happening in the US, I think there are, I don't think, I know, there are multiple people, organizations, philanthropists who are have been very um generous and interested in impact-based funding for research in the states who are now looking for a new market because they can't be sure that programs will persist or uh endure over um any length of time in the states. They can't be sure that the conditions that those programs or research threads are being performed under will endure. It's all looking a little bit precarious. Now that's bad news for the states and for the world because that their weight in terms of research is mighty. And so if they start going south or are starting to go south, that's that has major implications globally. But it's potentially a big opportunity for Australia. We have rule of law, we have stability, we have um a values base that is uh in common with many of the nations in the northern hemisphere. We have uh an exceptional track record on RD, and people keep saying we punch above our weight in terms of punch above the weight, yeah. I really dislike that as a metaphor, but um, you know, people use it a lot. And on the other hand, though, we talk about how we're just not very good at applying that research and developing it and bringing it to market. It's not technically true. We're actually quite good at it. Um we could absolutely be better at it.

SPEAKER_03 20:05

So why is the rhetoric that we're not good at it? Do you have any feeling for that? Because it is I hear that too. Like, oh yeah, we we do some good stuff here, we punch above our weight because obviously science is violent. But then I don't know we don't do it very well, we don't translate it, and I don't think don't we?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Oh look, I I do think it is trigger is our universities have a very complicated relationship with IP, shall we say. Um so in that sense, yes, it could easily it could definitely be easier. But on the other hand, when when you look at our our track record of innovation and application, it's actually very strong. So all of that makes us uh an excellent prospect for funders and givers who are looking for somewhere safe to drive their their impact agendas.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

And so I think there is a huge opportunity in terms of growing the philanthropic funding to Australia. I think there is also a huge opportunity in terms of commercial investment in RD. Um and you know, we can start to see some, it it paired with that, some uh wealthier big players in Australia who are from here, who are perhaps kind of flexing their might on the global stage and have been grown out of this place despite conditions that don't reward risk. And they are interested in building more of those conditions here. They understand that in investing in more competition locally in the same way that Silicon Valley does is healthy for the ecosystem.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

So culturally, though Australia's not good at philanthropy has been my impression. The Australian culture is kind of a bit mystified, repelled. I don't know what the right phrasing is.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

You know, we're not seemingly good at it. We're quite we've got quite a lot of philanthropy in Australia. What we don't yeah, what we don't have is um a kind of established pathway to um to supporting philanthropists who would like to um invest in research. And so they almost have to start from scratch every time uh a new player enters the market. So having having some kind of Guidelines and some established ways of doing things, I think, would be very helpful in a way that doesn't rely on individual universities and research institutes to vie for the pieces of the pie. Because that's kind of how it's done now.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

Would you say then for for people who are listening to this who are early a career or looking for change, would it be smart of them to start to unpack the ways in which they could help facilitate this philanthropy and other kinds of connections? Is that actually a path for people in the greater STEM support realm?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Aaron Ross Powell I'm not sure that individual researchers doing it would would be the way to go. I think you'll end up with a multiplicity of solutions that probably just muddies the water. But I do think that thinking about different ways to communicate the aspirations you have and the impact that your research could have, noting that sometimes that's, you know, 10 or 20 year time frame, I think that that will never go astray.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

And and thinking about um how, you know, uh these digital natives who are um uh much more adept at connecting to big groups of people and finding their tribes than um than the likes of you and I, Rod.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Um it's true. You know, the middle-aged folk and beyond. But I think those pe you know, think about those those skills as superpowers too. You don't have to do things the way that they've always been done just because they've always been done that way. That's always been the way that I've approached my work. Yeah. And I think there's a phenomenal opportunity for people who understand who are, you know, quick and committed and who understand how to leverage that those digital networks. I think there is enormous opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

So actually this brings me to a question I'm asking everyone, because I'm very curious about this, and I think it's important, particularly for actually for everyone to hear this. Imposter syndrome. Does it ever go away? Because I know mine never has, and I doubt it ever will. And most people I talk to tend to say, I have it, I always have it. What about you?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

You learn to live with it, right? I I guess there are two things that have kind of um have made a difference for me. When I first became a CEO, I mumbled my title when I introduced myself to people because I felt like I hadn't quite earned the right to own it. And one of my board members actually came up to me and she said, Kylie, you're actually disrespecting the people who have entrusted you to do this job. If you hide that light under a bushel, you have got to step in and own that space, even if you don't feel it. Pretend you do. Because what you're doing then is you're showing respect to the people who have trusted you to do this job.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Cool, cool.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

And that really landed for me. I thought, okay, it's not actually about me. I've been trusted to perform this role, I've got to own it 100%. And that made a big difference. I've had that advice in my mind every time I've tried something new. The first time I became the chair of a board, the first time I gave a TED talk. The only time I gave a TED talk, let's be honest. You never know, there might be a second. Um, I guess the other thing that I would say is that at the age of um 52, I I feel I do not any longer feel like I have anything to prove. But geez, it's taken me a long time to get here and it's taken a lot of self-talk. So I wouldn't say that that imposter syndrome has ever gone away, but I don't feel the need to prove myself anymore. Although I will say I was playing a board game with my family last week, and and I beat my wife resoundingly, and I was quite delighted by that.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

And thank you. And and she looked at me and she said, Do you feel better now? And I'm like, Yeah, I feel better. And she said, Oh, so you know, you were made uh a member of the Order of Australia and you've got an honorary doctorate and you're an honorary professor, but you needed to beat me at a board game to feel good. I'm like, Yes, I did.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

Yeah. Finally, something that matters. Finally.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

I I boy, I appreciate. And and actually conversations I have with people about that, they kind of and I I agree with this. Imposter syndrome is actually a fuel as well. I think it's kind of healthy to have it a little bit, not debilitating, but a little bit to kind of go, just make sure you question and don't get too cocky about your position in the world.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

And maybe a different way to frame it as you mature is not imposter syndrome, but that enduring curiosity and an understanding that you don't know it all, really, because I do say this sometimes to some of the incredibly clever and accomplished people in my beautiful wide network. If you start assuming you are the smartest person in the room, you have stopped learning. Oh, yeah. You're gonna fall on your face.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

Yep. Yep, totally agree. I'm hearing over recent years we need to restore trust in science. And I have to say, whenever I hear it, it makes me want to start shaking things and throwing stuff around the room. Because who says it's needing restoring? What the hell do you mean by trust and among who? For what reasons? And what do you mean by science? My impression of that is this is the wrong question to ask, where it's the beginning of a conversation, not the end point. Having completely preloaded that, what's your feeling about that sort of thing? The restoring trust and science.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

I don't think it ever went away.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Honestly, that I I I complet I think I think that that is an uh an ill-informed and perhaps um it's coming it's coming to a question from the perspective that you've got something to prove again, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

So, you know, if you have some as a as a sector, as a group of professionals, if you have a self-esteem problem, then of course you're going to have to stamp your feet and justify your existence. So my big advice to the sector and anyone in it is own your space and be proud of what you do. Know that it matters. Learn how to talk about why it matters, but don't feel like you have to scramble to justify your existence because, you know, it's well proven, right? That existence is necessary to the way that we live, the way that we learn, the way that we play, the way that we move through the world, the homes that we live in, the transport we take, absolutely every single aspect of the way that we exist as human beings on this planet today is thanks to science. So why would you have to run around proving it? Let's get on with it.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

I hear it as code for people won't listen to me.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Well, learn to tell your stories better then.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Yeah, that's it. That because whenever I hear it from particularly from let's say more mature and experienced folk within the greater realm, particularly deep within the sciences, I think if you're upset people aren't listening to you, let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

Because that's fair enough and we can have a conversation about that. But not this this framing of it as restoring public trust in science. It doesn't make me comfy.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

No, and it's kind of like letting the bully in the room own the space, isn't it? I mean, yeah, there's a whole lot of rubbish that goes on on social media and you know, all of the bots and all of the scuttle butt that's seeking to destabilize the establishment and um and the frameworks that that research is built on. Don't give it oxygen.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Yeah, I I look, I agree. Final question. What do you do when you're not doing this? Like what do you watch, listen to, absorb TV, books, social media accounts? Like as a human being, what's the sort of stuff that makes you not think about the STEM sector just for five minutes?

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Um I have a very eclectic um range of things that I do. So listening, reading. Recently read Hail Mary, my son gave it to me. Oh yeah. Loved it. Good bit of fun. Yeah. Um bit of a bit of a buddy book, I guess. Bit more, bit more sort of science. I don't know how it compares with the last one. I think the uh the Martian.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Is it the Hail Mary Project? I think it's the Hail Mary. Yeah, yeah, the Hail Mary Project.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah, yeah. Um uh The Martian was a lot heavier on the science, but a lot lighter on the narrative. So, you know, he's almost overcorrected with this one. Anyway, I read that recently. Um I also, for my sins, recently listened to Hillbilly Elegy, J.D. Vance's autobiography. Oh wow, good for you. Um I just thought, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how he saw himself back then. I know it's a it's a bit long in the tooth now, but he's very much kind of positioned himself in a particular way, and I know there's been controversy about um the relative truth of his tale, but um but I am curious about that man. I think he's definitely someone that we ought to take the time to get to know. Um and and the other one that I've recently listened to, and I do like listening to non-fiction on audiobook. I listen to it while I run or walk or drive. It's an old one actually, it's Andrew Charlton's Caudley Essay, which was published in 2011.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

And it's called Man-Made World. Choosing Between Progress and Planet. And that piqued my interest, and I highly recommend it for a listen because our assistant minister is incredibly articulate and insightful. He takes very complex concepts and untangles them in ways that are both clever and easy to grasp hold of.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Um and he has thought very, very deeply about um the way in which research and technological development in particular matches with a need for a sustainable planet. It's a really fascinating lesson.

SPEAKER_03 30:57

Oh, I'd I will I'll take that one and writing that down right now. Well, I'm recording it too, which helps. No, I really appreciate that. Is there anything you would want to add or you wished I'd ask you?

SPEAKER_00 31:06

I guess the only other thing I'd say is that I can see a growing trend globally to think about um the place of Indigenous knowledge systems.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

And that's not just coming from Australia, it's also coming from, I guess, the places you'd expect it to, in South America, in Canada, in New Zealand. And that I think there's an enormous potential to think differently about how we regard knowledge, but also how we acquire and uh and pass knowledge on. Um and I'm not suggesting that one way is better than another way. I think that um that weaving together different ways of building knowledge and transmitting knowledge, I think could be incredibly powerful for our species going forward. But we're really very much in the infancy of that thinking. And I would absolutely love to see if if that is given the space to develop, I'd love to see where it goes in, I don't know, three, four hundred years. I think it could be super interesting.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Yeah, totally agree. Kylie, thank you so much for talking to me today. What an excellent conversation. This has been Science with Benefits, and I'm Rod Lambert. If you enjoyed the show, please like, rate, share. You all know the duel by now. Also, if there's someone you think I should talk to, it might even be you. Drop me a line either via LinkedIn or on email. Rod.lambert, lambert.edu.au. Talk to you soon.