Sarah Keenihan - Legendary science communicator, writer and editor

Keywords

science communication, freelancing, environmental crisis, academia, qualitative research, writing, editing, academic publishing, communication strategies, public engagement trust in science, imposter syndrome, science communication, advice for writers, navigating disagreement

Summary

In this conversation, Sarah Keenihan discusses her journey back to academia as a postgraduate student in science communication, triggered by an environmental crisis in South Australia. She reflects on her previous experience in science, the challenges of freelancing, and the importance of effective science communication. The discussion also touches on the balance between meeting client expectations and maintaining ethical standards in writing and communication. In this conversation, Sarah K and Rod Lamberts explore the complexities of trust in science, the challenges of imposter syndrome, and the importance of mentorship for aspiring science writers. They discuss the nuances of engaging with differing opinions and the need for transparency in scientific communication. Sarah shares her personal experiences with imposter syndrome and offers advice for those starting their careers in science writing, emphasizing the value of seeking guidance and finding balance in life beyond work.

Takeaways

Sarah is returning to university to pursue a PhD in science communication.

Her interest in science communication was sparked by an environmental crisis.

She has a PhD in a traditional science field, which she refers to as 'legit'.

Freelancing in science writing involves juggling multiple clients and deadlines.

Networking is essential for success in freelancing.

Effective science communication requires understanding the audience's needs.

Academics often forget how much they know and need to simplify their messages.

The importance of structuring stories to hook readers early is crucial.

Trust is built through transparency and accuracy in communication.

Ethical considerations can lead to turning down work that doesn't align with personal values. We need to engage with people we disagree with.

Trust in science varies among different groups.

People want to see real individuals involved in science.

Imposter syndrome is a common experience for many.

Using fear can be a motivator for success.

It's important to find a mentor for guidance.

Physical activities can provide mental relief.

Knowing when to take a break is crucial.

Being human in your work fosters connection.

Asking for advice can lead to valuable insights.

Chapters

00:00 Revisiting Academic Roots

02:58 Navigating Environmental Crises

06:00 The Freelance Journey

08:58 The Role of Science Communication

12:00 Balancing Pragmatism and Ethics

17:21 Navigating Disagreement and Trust in Science

18:25 The Challenge of Trust in Science

24:29 Imposter Syndrome: A Common Struggle

28:38 Advice for Aspiring Science Writers

30:57 Finding Balance Beyond Science

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Sarah Kinahan is an inspiring scientist and communicator with a gift for understating her expertise and achievements. Her science career began as a PhD'd research immunologist, but then pivoted into science writing and editing, often as a freelancer, but also with a stint as the science editor for The Conversation Australia. Sarah has worked with numerous clients, including the Bureau of Meteorology, the Australian Institute for Machine Learning, Oracon, and various universities and other researchers and research groups. It is, by any measure, an impressive track record. Back in the olden days, as she puts it, she ran a daily blog called ScienceForlife.365, where she posted a science story or insight every day for a whole year. She didn't miss a day. And honestly, that's an inspiring feat in and of itself. Our conversation was interesting and also often very practical. Sarah's straightforward and honest advice to freelance science writers, for example, starts with having a good look in the mirror and thinking about whether this is for you. It can be pretty stressful trying to balance not enough work with too damn much work. This also means you need to learn to tell when you've done enough for today and listen to a good celebrity gossip pod. Wise words from Sarah there. We pondered the importance of weighing up career pragmatism and meeting your client brief against maintaining your values and integrity as an expert, and also countering the seductive call of only preaching to the choir when there's so much to be gained from having conversations with folks with whom you don't necessarily agree. Recently, a massive algal bloom triggered an environmental crisis in Sarah's home state of South Australia, and this drove her to begin her second PhD looking at science communication challenges wrought by this situation. But it's no surprise one PhD isn't enough for Sarah. She's never been one to sit back and let her professional life just coast along. I'm Rod Lambertz, a veteran science communicator with nearly 30 years of teaching, learning, and doing SICOM under my belt. My chat with Sarah coming up next on Science with Benefits. STEM sector insights from the people who know. Sarah Kenahan, I am so happy to be talking to you. I've haven't spoken to you for a long time, and I don't I almost don't know where to start because of all the things you've done. So maybe start with what are you doing now? Sure.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Hi Rod. I am back at uni at starting February 26th. I um dive back into being a postgrade student. Um it's something I've always been interested in, having a deeper knowledge around science, communication, academia, and practice. So I've taken the plunge this year back at CPAS at ANU. Um and that was triggered by something that happened here in South Australia starting in March 25. We had a huge environmental crisis kick off and then persists. The algal bloom, which has been really devastating on a number of fronts. And I could just see right from the start there were so many complexities. You know, there's science, yes, of course, but there's the impact on the community was so real and so devastating, and all these layers relating to collection of legit science data, but also communication of the science, other forms of knowledge, uh political implications, how policy was formed off the back of what was going on, it happened happened so quickly. So that's what triggered something that I had ticking along in the back of my mind for ages, and then that was the driver.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

And so I got my got myself organized. You're doing a PhD in science communication. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, you already had a PhD though, didn't you?

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Yes, I have a PhD in one's not enough, okay. My husband keeps singing the Doctor Doctor song to me. But I have a hardcore legit science PhD in the lab.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Read some papers, make a hypothesis, design an experiment, carry it out, crunch the numbers.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

You know, I was in control of all of that really beautifully. I mean, it's not to say it was easy, but I ran it and I planned it and I made it happen and I executed. Qualitative research is so much harder. I'm really realizing that now. But loving it, loving it.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

So so you did your you did your PhD, your science PhD. And I'd like to call that legit. I mean my PhD is in science communications. What I'm hearing is it's illegitimate, but that's okay. I don't take it personally.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

Um I meant legit lab science. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

I know. I'm I'm always gonna I'm always gonna arc up because I was gonna be a real scientist, aka psychologist, and most people go, well, that's not a real scientist either. So I'm always pressing my face up against the glass of the real the real folk. But so did you did you basically go straight through union, do that PhD, and then go out into the real bad world, or did you muck around and went straight through?

SPEAKER_03 5:13

I started off as a med student and did three years of medicine and then thought, mm, I'm a bit of an introvert. This might not be the rest career, best career for me. So I um did a uh Bachelor of Medical Science Honours year, sh sort of converted what I had into an honours degree, and then launched into a PhD in immunology, um, working with a brilliant supervisor that made it, you know, fascinating topic, but also great supervisor.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Um certainly helps.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

It really did. She and she is a brilliant communicator herself. So I always had that interest in the science communication.

unknown 5:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

And then so s worked in immunology research for a couple of years, but then um did another sidestep into the science communication. Well, not strictly, you know, not based on academic science communication, science writing, helping people who are really good at science and other complicated stuff speak to bigger audiences, basically. So I've been working as a freelancer along those lines for a long time, uh including working as an editor at The Conversation for nearly three years as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, yeah. Um I'd like to unpack both of those if we can briefly. So you say you've been freelancing. So you've basically been freelancing for years as a science writer.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

Yep. Yeah. So working with unis, I'm based in Adelaide, working with unis here, but also um across Australia.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

You know, helping with everything from blog posts to annual reports to white papers. Yeah, at the moment I've still got one client, the Bureau of Meteorology, that I do a bit of writing for. So all sorts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

That's um that's a brave, brave thing to do. All the freelancers I've known, and being someone who's sort of meandered into that world, I don't know, almost fortuitously or unfortuitously recently. Seems to be quite a stressful world. I mean, there seems to be a lot of reward. I don't I mean beyond financial, but keeping it going and always you know always be separate.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

There's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

It's juggling clients, you know, and getting the balance of enough work versus too much work can be tricky. Um because, you know, deadlines are urgent, of course, everyone has strict deadlines.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

So it's mapping it out and planning ahead and making sure you've got work continuing to trickle in, but also not overcommitting yourself and keeping the quality of work up. It's really important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Would you would you say to people, people listening to this who think they want to be a freelancer, would you say run, run like hell?

SPEAKER_03 7:47

It's gotta fit with you and your approach, I think. You you know, have a good hard look at yourself basically and work out are you organized? Are you good at picking up the phone? You have to be able to talk to people and nut out what they really want.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

Uh and not everyone likes to have such direct conversations, so you kinda have to um work out if it matches with how you like to roll. There's some great science communicators I'm watching at the moment, science writers, sorry, freelancers on LinkedIn, and they're really good at just explaining what they do. And if I was a client reading some of those posts, I'd think, yeah, you sound like you've got a great voice, and you're, you know, you can y you can get a sense of the sort of people who are good at it by um talking to a few others, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Yeah, that's always networks, isn't it? Network network.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Networking is critical. Network, network. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Well what about then so the conversation, because I I remember when you were the editor of the conversation, you were very kind to uh, you know, bumbling academics like me who wanted to have a little shout at the void.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Um You and Will were easier to work with compared to some, but yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Well it was well, it was fun. Look, uh as as an academic at the time, writing for the conversation was really useful. I mean it was a it was a great outlet as in for an individual to go, I want to yell about something, but I'm not a policy guy, or I want to yell about something, but I'm not a industry guy. However, I am an academic with a bunch of opinions. Imagine that. Um So you were the s you were the science editor, weren't you?

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Yeah, I started on the health desk and then I took over the science and tech desk after about a year, just under a year, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

And what was that better or worse than being a freelancer? Just different.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

So different. It's br it's a brilliant organization. You know, I love the model. So it's journalists basically hold the editorial roles and then commission work and commission stories and work with academics to get the stories written and make sure they hitting all the marks in terms of having an the an appropriate layout and um the right language for the audience and that sort of thing. Yeah, I found it a great job. It was a great job. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Was there some advice you're always giving people over and over again, like with a typical kind of rinse and repeat?

SPEAKER_03 10:08

Yeah. You know, the main thing with academia is you sort of forget how much you know as an academic, and that there's a some key information often that others don't know.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

But coming with that is you have to know what's okay to let go and let what to let go and still sell the story, but also how to structure the story so that you hook people early and keep them interested right from the get-go. You can't afford to faff on a couple of paragraphs of background, everyone's like, yawn. Why am I reading this? Tell me why this matters now. And then I might give you my time to understand a bit of the history later.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Yeah. Um and was it relatively easy to convert academics to that way of thinking? Would you say on average it was okay?

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Um It was a real mix. Some some were really interested in developing that form of writing in as part of their own skill set and were became really good at it and could hammer out stuff really quickly because they understood the audience needs and the that it was a news story, basically. It has to be out there in in the world with all the other news that's constantly being pumped out. Um others, you knew they had the right expertise that could really be useful in adding an important voice out into the the news world, but helping them craft and moderate what they were writing to fit that expectation could take a bit of time. But yeah, and some academics were really happy for the editors to work with them and make that happen, and others got a bit cranky, but um Yeah, I can appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

I'd I had to do that when when it first started up the conversation at the when I was at the ANU, it was a scary beast to many. And so I'd have climate scientists in particular come and talk to me and they'd say, How come how come they publish your stuff and not mine? You know, everyone needs to know climate science, and I'd have to say, let's just let's step back. Let's step back. What is it you actually want everyone to know? Climate science.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Why? Tell me why.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

And na and what am I gonna do with that information? Just give a hint. Help me help me know that this is not gonna make me feel sad, powerless, overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Yeah. Climate's not good for that.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

It's not good for that.

unknown 12:33

No.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Surely medicine though, help health and stuff, you've probably got to tell a lot more good news stories.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

Uh yeah. A lot of health is um empowering people to feel confident in their own body and seek help when needed, not run away from stuff just because it feels a bit scary sometimes, that kind of vibe.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Yeah. Encountering an Aussie male. Yeah. Encountering the misinformation that's out there, that kind of that can be really important as well. Without being a slapped down, boring Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Actually, I think you'll find the factor and you think, great, that's definitely going to work in changing someone's mind, isn't it? Yeah. No, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

What um Don't get a tan, but I look so hot with the tan. Okay, yeah. Let's just walk through what might happen when you're 50 if you um when when you're doing that kind of work, how would you decide when you'd done a good job?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Like where when would you finish the day and go, that was a good one? Like with the freelancing, with the conversation. In general, actually, with the typical site company because there's a point at which you just have to let it go.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

And I've done some cons work where my um boss said, Done is better than perfect. We just have to get this out. So do the best you can in that time frame and let it go. Next job's coming through. There's a little bit of that. Um working with clients often what I think is the right thing isn't their view of what's the right thing. So you have to sort of um work that out together and meet the brief.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

Yeah, it can be tricky. I've edited plenty of um award applications and grant applications, for example, where I could see that it probably wasn't going to go anywhere. But the client asked me to do a job, and so I did the best that I could with the content that I had, that kind of idea, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

So it's sounding to me like a lot for what you've been doing is um pragmatic. Like I've done a good job because the brief I was given has been met.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Yes, but also knowing I had you know, as a s trained scientist, I knew what good science was.

unknown 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

I knew what was reasonable to claim based on evidence. So that had to come into it as well. And I guess that's why some clients learn to trust me and you know there are plenty of other science writers out there who were the same. A trusted person who understood what good quality science writing was and evidence-based science writing was.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Did people like did they actually ask or did you feel like you had to put your your PhD science credentials forward to get that credibility or authority with the Trevor Burrus, J Yeah, often I think it helped.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

I really do think it helped. And often not all writers do this, but I would usually interview someone, let them know we're gonna have a chat, I'm gonna write it up, I'm gonna send you the quotes I'm planning to use from you so you can make sure you're happy with them that they are accurate. And a lot of people liked that. It made for a better interview because they felt like they could relax because they'd get a second look at it. You know, and it's not like they wanted to polish it up and make it inconsistent with them as a person. It's just that they wanted to make sure the facts were accurate before it got published in the big bad world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

That's a that's a bit of a luxury that you don't normally get when you're being interviewed by a traditional journalist, right? You don't you don't get that second.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

The moment is the moment and then it's done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yeah. I always used to laugh when I'd hear some people give media advice to scientists and say, okay, if a journalist calls you, get their number, tell them you'll call them back, and I'm like, stop. No. You're done. You're cooked.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Like you've just got to uh so under pressure, they've got to hammer it out that it's yeah, the the senior editor wanted it five minutes ago, so they're just Okay, so meeting the brief, I mean did did you did you often confront a situation where you had to meet a brief you had to kind of compromise what you felt was not not as good, but yeah, was it was it uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Was it all right?

SPEAKER_03 16:48

I can't remember any specific incidences of that, no. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

That's good.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

I'm actually really impressed because I I I I have a very pragmatic view too, and I when I was um uh lecturing, I'd say to students, in the end, you've got to be pragmatic, right? Who I didn't quite say who's signing the checks, but 'cause that's a little bit too much, but it's real.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

And then you've got to work out what your values are and align with those. And if you can't, well maybe you're in the wrong line of work.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

I did get offered some work for a research body, I'll just say that. And the work was funded by a company that I wasn't comfortable with writing for, so I said no to that one. Yeah.

unknown 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Did was there any um uh any backlash from that or is that understood as you can?

SPEAKER_03 17:32

No, and if the guy said, Yeah, I get it. That's understandable. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah, yeah. I had one of those. I I won't name the organization, but let's just say they they didn't not represent a resource company.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

I was near in my career and I was offered this opportunity to go somewhere and give them a presentation on risk, and I thought I can go and tell them a thing or two and make them better. And it was a l a sheep among the lions, and I remember sitting there going, Oops, don't do this again.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

But I w I found it very awkward indeed.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Never did it again.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

It's a hard one though, because you know, we do need to pick that old, we need to talk to people we disagree with, otherwise we're all gonna just keep talking preaching to the choir. But yeah. It's hard to know which which times to do that and which times not to do that.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Well, particularly as you say, I mean, going back to the freelancer thing, you need to make a living.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

And you need to have a portfolio, right? You for you if you don't have a portfolio that looks like it's active, people will doubt you.

SPEAKER_03 18:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

It's tricky.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

It's very tricky.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Very tricky. So I want to actually pivot to this kind of related. I hear all the time now, and I'm asking everyone this because I just I really want to unpack it with different points of view. The whole we need, at least in Australia, but it seems to be happening globally, we need to restore trust inside. So this phrase and variations of it. Restore trust insides. I personally hear it everywhere inside this greater STEM and you know SICOM sector. A, are you hearing it much? And B, what does it mean to you?

SPEAKER_03 19:04

I'm definitely hearing it.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

But as far as I'm aware, a lot of polling, etc., shows that people do trust science as a the science. You know, whatever that means to different people, I guess, can vary.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

Yeah, I guess one of the challenges is if we talk about science, for example, as a source of examining a question and pulling out data relating to a question. Lots of different parts of society do science. So in the algal bloom example, the the algal bloom, Humphre Alkal Bloom in South Australia, something happened in the ocean. Everyone went, oh my god, what the hell is this? Scientists went in, sampled the water, identified algae, right, now we're on track. But the scientists that were involved in tracking the algal bloom, we've got academic scientists who are independent of government, government scientists also understanding the question, reporting within government. Uh there was also a heap of citizen scientists who helped understand the question. We've also got people like fishermen who have in-depth knowledge of the environment and you know, species variation over time. All this falls under the science umbrella, and it seems to be clear sort of through various media reporting, parliamentary inquiries into the bloom. People seem to trust some of that science, but not all of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

So it's there's that overlay of um trust. Which parts of science do you trust? Do you trust universities? Do you trust the government? Do you trust people who are in your own community?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

So for me, people want to know that there are real people that they know and are familiar with who are involved in examining a problem and coming up with solutions, not just a protected group of experts who tell you what they want and might not tell you the full picture. I don't know. This this I mean the It's the perception of hedging the how much is released publicly that can be damaging, I think.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Okay. So your response kind of encapsulates the reason the statement makes my eyes kind of twitch a little. Because you know, a generic thing like trust in science or trust in scientists, to my mind, kind of makes no sense because people can't answer that question. And people will very helpfully answer that question. You know, they'll say, I trust them eight out of ten. And you get those answers in and you collate the answers and you say 75% of people trust science, 80% or more. But you have no idea, unless you unpack it, what the hell they're thinking about when they say they do or don't trust it.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

And I kind of wonder what people do with that information when they hear that. You know, you you survey results make great rhetoric, you know, they make great news. Clips, etc. etc. But what do they actually do? What what are we measuring? And I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Anecdotally, I can see there's a lot of fear and mistrust around this algal bloom as an example. Because it's been so traumatic, because it's felt like it came out of nowhere, because the causes aren't necessarily located here in South Australia. Yeah. And because there's economic implications and it's so complicated. And the question of trust is definitely in there somewhere. And um maybe I'll dive into that a little bit further down my PhD. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

No, don't don't tell a supervisor that if that had anything to do with me, don't tell them I had anything to do with it because the last thing a supervisor wants is some outside party saying, Have you thought about and everything blows up.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Just politely say, Yes, right, I've thought about that.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

What a wonderful idea. I'll incorporate that never. Yeah. All PhDs are supposed to be way too big for most of the time. Yes. They get large. They get very, very large and very, very confusing. That's right. Yeah, I don't want to I don't want to labor it too much, but it just the notion that we have to restore it too. Like restore trust in science, restore it among who? From what baseline? Like all these questions come into mind. It's it's a really good slogan. We need to restore trust in science. And you know, if august bodies and people say it, other august buddies and people and people who believe in them say, yes. But we don't say, well, okay, where is it needing restoration? Where is it actually broken down?

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

It's not clear to me. Honestly, it's not clear to me.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

Yeah. And we still want people to be inquisitive and ask questions as a society. So you just don't want blanket robots that go, yes, I trust the science. Because different people with different agendas can produce the science. So it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah, it's it's tricky. I I don't know how to solve it. I just but I do think talking about it is helpful because it's very easy to nod along, as you say. It's very easy to just nod along and go, Oh yeah, that is a problem. And then you don't unpack the problem. What are you gonna do? Um What I'm also curious about, you've done some things that have involved you having a lot of responsibility for what you produce, or or you know, uh being a sort of a custodian of other people's stories, etc. etc. Um I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that maybe you, like most people, have experienced some level of imposter syndrome. Um does it ever go away No.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

And I think for me at least, that's because I've just trying new things all the time. I don't like turning stuff out just because it's easy. I mean, it's that's a very privileged thing to say. But I feel like different types of work have suited me well at different times of my life. So I've got three kids, they're now nearly all grown up. But for a while there I was struggling just to keep my head above water, and so I took on less work and did it to the best of my ability at the time. Um and I'm struggling to remember what your question was. Oh, hypnosis syndrome. Yeah, yeah. Um Yeah Yes. I think now I'm certainly feeling it now, starting something totally fresh. But uh I think I'm just better now at going, yep, I'm not good at this yet. I might be in the future. I'm not gonna panic. I'm just gonna use my brain and work my way through and try and get better.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

So you challenge it regularly by the sounds of it. You know, throughout your life, you've challenged of whether you're an imposter or not and then pushed through.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Yeah. Definitely. And you know, showing up and doing public like I hosted a panel at an event in Adelaide last week, earlier this week. And that was really scary, even though I've done a lot of that in the past, but I haven't done it for a while, and I was feeling a bit wobbly then, but just pretended for a while and then it ended up being good. So yeah, fake my way through it until it was okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Yeah, look, I I think it's good advice. I think it's really important, particularly for those people who feel like it's debilitating or they're alone. We all get it. And I I'd argue if you don't get it a little bit, then maybe you should, I mean, going back to what you said it right very early in the piece, take a good look in the mirror and see if you're as uh why are you so sure you shouldn't? Not that it should bring you down, it but why are you so sure?

SPEAKER_03 26:46

My kids that too, you know. Even it's similar in sport. You know, one of my kids gets oh nervous to the point of nausea sometimes before a match, and I said, This is good. This is Use it. Use it. Exactly. It it launches you forward to try and make something happen that's awesome. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah, I agree. If I gave into imposter syndrome, I'd I think I'd be just sitting on the couch eating uh chips and staring at the TV.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Yeah, and just be a human being. Like sometimes you stuff stuff off in public, and if you just roll with it and be a human, others are like, yeah, great.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Oh, nothing nothing gets you more credibility than genuinely owning a mistake.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

I I think that's a wonderful that's a lesson I learned very early in teaching, particularly I thought, oh, this is wonderful.

unknown 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Say oops.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Yeah. Anyone know the answer to that? Because actually I don't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

I have no idea. Look, we're all human.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. I'm worried that I'm gonna ask someone this in in the next few interviews and they say, no, don't have it, and I'm gonna think sociopath, what am I doing here? Is there anything else you'd like to throw in before I just put to you the last kind of thing I want to talk about? Particularly tips for new players. Any tips for new players? Like if you were starting out again or someone wanted to be you as a science writer, freelancer, whatever. I mean, bench scientists too, but if someone wanted to be you, what would you tell them to do?

SPEAKER_03 28:14

It's really hard giving blanket advice, I think. Say you're at the start of a science degree, people come from different levels of security and income, housing. Some of it has to be do what you need to do to get through sometimes. But I think trying to latch onto finding someone you can talk to about longer term vision can be super useful. And I had a couple of them along the way. As I said, I dropped out of medicine and for some that would be the most horrific thing you could ever choose to do. But I've had enough people in my life who gave me good advice, yeah, how to convert what I'd done into a degree, that was one thing, but also the importance of feeling comfortable and having a sense of whether something was a good fit for you as a long-term option. So finding anyone you can talk to, it can be a parent or another professional or a sibling or an auntie or a best friend or whatever. Just ask people, oh my god, what the hell do you think I should do? Do you know anyone I could talk to about this?

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some kind of mentory like energy.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

Yeah. Mentory energy for sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Mentory. Big M. So okay, then just just finally, I don't want to make it all about work. What what do you do when you're not thinking about science? And I assume for you it means more science, but do you actually do you watch anything, do you subscribe to any uh podcasts other than this one, obviously? What do you do when you're not thinking about science?

SPEAKER_03 29:52

I do I listen to a lot of podcasts. Everything from trashy gossip, who's dating who to history and politics. And I sort of pick and choose like this week has been a rough week in politics, so I've gone back to a bit of trash.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Just having an awareness of what my head can take. So I do turn to the trash just as a bit of an escapism. I love reading fiction. I I read fiction and I listen to non-fiction audiobooks. I walk my dog.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

I go to the gym, lift a few weights.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Throw them around a bit.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

And I do gardening. God, I'm getting older. I listen to talk about gardening and I get out in my garden as a bit of therapy as well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

I understand. I I had to move twelve square meters of uh mulch a year or two back for a large new gardening thing. And the the mountain got delivered, and I looked at it, and I thought, this is gonna take me solid, solid days, and I was delighted. And younger me was looking down and going, What the hell is happening to you, man?

SPEAKER_03 30:59

So satisfying though, to physically do things.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah. And you can see the change. Then you're sort of giving yourself high fives when no one's looking, and it's making me and then you sleep like a baby because you're wrecked physically.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Yeah, love it. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah, I I agree. I I think people who are only working uh setting themselves up for difficulty.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

Yeah. And I think that yeah, that coming at the second PhD, I think I'm a little bit better of that's enough for today. I have had enough for today.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

I've read two papers really deeply.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

I'm doing lots of thinking. And actually I can't read any more right now, so I'm gonna walk the dog.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yeah, that's good. I I agree with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

That's something I'm a bit better at. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

That takes time.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Ask me in three years if I've still got that mindset. But anyway.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

I'll I'll hold you that. I'll ask you again. We'll do it, we'll do it the uh five minute. Okay, how how what is it really like?

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

That's great. I really appreciate talking to you about this stuff. I think you might not think you're very interesting, but I disagree in case your impostors coming in there. There are a lot of people who don't know anything about the kinds of stuff you've done who now hear it's human for stars, which I think is really important. So thank you very much for it. This has been Science with Benefits, and I'm Rod Lambert. If you enjoyed the show, please like, rate, share. You all know the drill by now. Also, if there's someone you think I should talk to, it might even be you. Drop me a line either via LinkedIn or on email. Rod.lambert lamberthernet at anu.edu.au. Drop you two.