Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I'm Chris DeSantis, and today I am joined by the head coach of swimming and diving at Indiana University, Ray Luz. Ray, welcome to the podcast. Thanks to be here, Chris. Yeah, I'm really excited to do this one. Uh, and I'm I feel privileged that you're willing to do it. I know it's a busy time of year. You're finding some time to squeeze me in. And uh we're gonna we're gonna have a far-reaching conversation today. Today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you didn't play fair. You uh used Glenn Newfeld, who was my dear friend. I think you knew that.
SPEAKER_01I did. Listen, I people who are listening to this podcast, like you look at the guests. Um, there's actually some strategy with the guests because sometimes it's when I want to get somebody on, it's like the guest that leads to a guest that leads to a guest. Um, in this case, it was very direct because uh I just did one with Glenn. Um so as I said, we're gonna have a far-reaching conversation. I want to start with something based around recruiting. And by recruiting here, I think I mean both coaches and athletes. One of my observations, and a lot of these questions are just I don't know you, they're based off of my observations from afar. So I'm really interested to get your insight into it. In general, how would you describe your philosophy in terms of trying to find coaches to coach in your program and trying to find athletes to swim in your program and dive, I should say.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's changed remarkably over the years in terms of athletes. When I first got here, even when I was at Pacific, I really had to scrounge and find people that were way down the list because that's frankly all we could get. And uh so the proverbial diamond in the rough was just how we lived. We've retained that even till present day. Like a Raquan Noel, who is quickly developing into, you know, one of the better NCA summers, I think. And um, he certainly falls into that category. So I I I and the staff pride ourselves on being able to develop people and really coach because of our shared backgrounds, where we've been at places where we had to do that. And so we're not people that have just been at schools where, you know, talent just rolls in by virtue of the name. Here we we have to really work hard to find people that are good fits for us. And we now have a pretty well-developed value system. And I can give you a little bit of an idea if you want to see what that is, because like right now, that's guiding really everything. Give me one set. It's like I need this, but um, you know, if you see this, okay, these are these are our values, and we apply this to obviously our team, but we apply this to recruiting, you know. So we have you know, five core values growth, soul, joy, courage, and perseverance, and then some I'm not sure if people your your subscribers can see the the words that go along with this, but I'll send it to you if you want to share it with them. But we can apply this to our coaching staff. So this is sort of the guiding light kind of you know, from two years ago, you know, into the future. And this is how we recruit in terms of moral, ethical, work ethic, you know, character-based traits. And um and the current staff and myself, we all work to develop these things. So that's how we're doing it currently. And again, I can I can share that with you at a later time if you wanna, if anybody wants to see it. But I show it to every recruit, I show it to every recruit, every parent of a recruit that takes a you know, a home visit. Or not a home visit, but uh an official visit.
SPEAKER_01It's interesting the perspective you talk about how it was when you started. I mean, I've actually been following IU swimming, I think, since your first season. I don't know if you knew this. I am a super fan of more than one college team. I'm a I'm a college swimming bigamist. Um and so I just loved, I always loved IU because I was a huge Doc Councilman fan, and that sort of just it got me invested in the history. And of course, it is a place with a lot of history, but I think probably a lot of people listening to this podcast don't know that, you know, they think about how great the program was in the 70s, they think about all the recent success you've had now, but it was a low point for the program when you started there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was probably a 20-year period of time where we were not very good. And I would say from the mid-80s to the mid-2000s. So, you know, before I came in here, the coach that I followed, they were I was just I took the men's job for the first few years and then they combined it. But, you know, we were seventh in the Big Ten and no points at NCs. So that was that was bottoming out for this program. And then um then we sort of just been working our way up from that point. But it took until 2006 to win the men's Big Ten title. 2005, we lost by about three points. Um, you know, so it was a it was a pretty quick rebuild, but um you know, you had that 20-year period of time, and and that's like for young people, that's like eons. That's an eternity. Yeah, nobody nobody knows who Mark Spitz is anymore, except super fans like yourself, me. I mean, even when my wife is the reason I'm at Indiana, she is from the state of Indiana, I'm from California, and she said, we're not raising our kids in California, it's not a safe state, bad schools. And she goes, You need to find a job in Indiana. And I was like, Okay. And she she's a coach, so she said, you know, when Indiana came open in 2002, she said, you know, back in the day that that was a really good program. And I'm like, well, they're not now. But she convinced me, and and really it was the best thing that's ever happened to our family. So listen to your wife.
SPEAKER_01Yes, uh, that is a continued theme on this podcast. Um the sage advice of my own wife comes up quite a bit. Quite a bit. If you look at that, uh you you say from seventh place to first place in the Big Ten meet in a period of we're talking four seasons or three seasons. That that is a pretty medium rise. When you reflect on that, how do you think that happened?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, tremendous amount of hard work, and then people being willing to recruit, likely replacements for themselves, you know, but every single one of those kids from 02, 03, 04, they come back and they have great pride in the foundation that they set. And they knew, you know, like where they were as athletes and talent talent-wise, but they they trusted everything and went along with it. And their hard recruiting, you know, buying into the you know, the vision of what we wanted to do was critical. And, you know, I still like Matt Leach, who coaches at Iowa State, was one of those guys. Guy named Dave Wink, you know, was one of those guys. I mean, just Murph Hallis, you know, people like like that I'll I'll never forget because they were the foundation pieces, at least in my time here.
SPEAKER_01I remember Murph Hallis. Like that's that's how big of a super fan I am because he broke Mark's 200 fly record record.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01He broke that the year before I got here. Yeah. In like a last chance meet.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You are very good. Impressive.
SPEAKER_01People people were not expecting Murph Hollis on this podcast. That's that's they weren't prepared for that.
SPEAKER_00I think Murph still is in Austin, Texas, so I've gotten to see him when, you know, because we go there quite a bit for meets.
SPEAKER_01I want to ask you a question about something you mentioned there. You said that your existing athletes were bought into recruiting their replacements. I think with a lot of programs where you're trying to move up, that's something that coaches think about a lot, right? That that's something that they run into in terms of their existent team culture. As a coach, how did you try to sell those kids on the team about that? Because I've seen that go wrong like a lot of times on a lot of teams.
SPEAKER_00You know, I wouldn't say it was perfect, but I would say that for the the majority of people bought in and they bought into, you know, being a part of something bigger than themselves, you know. So I might not have been what they committed to come to Indiana for, but you know, a core group, you know, really bought in, you know, worked hard and went from like, you know, a very modest, you know, commitment level program to to what I I like to do or what I feel is important to do.
SPEAKER_01If we turn to more recent times, I wanted to ask you about, you know, you started this recruiting right where you're you said you you're not getting the top of everybody on the list. In recent times, like you've recruited somebody that already win won an Olympic gold medal to your program. So that's like a pretty that's about as far as you can get from where you started recruiting-wise. And just from the outside looking in, again, in terms of recruiting, like to me, that's a swing for the fences. Some of the coaching hires you've made, I know Coley Stickles, he's a guy who's had some tremendous results, but he's also a bit of a wild card. Like, to me, that's out of a swing for the fences hiring move. And my perception is that you're willing to take some risks that maybe some of your peers aren't. Do you think that's an accurate perception, or how do you view those decisions? That's totally accurate.
SPEAKER_00And I require some reining in, you know, because my, you know, I'm I'm as an athlete and a coach, I've always been been willing to take risks. And um, you know, I mean, you probably could see it in our values, but it's a big part of our value is you know, being willing to take risks. Because that's how gold medals happen. That's how world records get set. That's how you win championships. You don't win things playing it safe. So it can it cannot work out in your favor at times. You know, when it doesn't work out, you look stupid. But uh more times than not, you know, good things happen. But, you know, playing it safe at a place like Indiana, you you know, you're only gonna get so far. As I've aged, I'm probably more risk-adverse than I've been as a younger coach. But but I'm still I'm still willing to do it, no question. But I'm surrounded now by people that I think are good for me that are complimentary. So if you have a staff full of risk takers, that isn't good. And if you have a staff full of people that just play it safe all the time, again, you'll get the opposite. So we have a good blend, I think, right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I guess I have to imagine like you talk about winning gold medals, you talk about I mean, I winning a national championship with your team must be a goal of yours. You're not gonna do that playing it safe.
SPEAKER_00Not at all. And, you know, the teams that you know that have won, you know, I think that's part of like what they've had to do. Now, I mean, right right now, I think college swimming, you know, on the men's side, it's just been Callo, Texas for pretty much decades, with the exception of Arizona State, which I thought was really helpful to the sport. But um, but for the most part, there there's absolutely no parity. And I'm hoping that what is happening in college football, where an Indiana and a Vanderbilt can both be in the top ten, I'm hoping that um that can happen, you know, in college, you know, men's and women's swimming. And I feel like we have a better chance to win a national title now under the current, you know, system than than we did before. I mean, we're clearly closer.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. Tell me more about that because I think a lot of what we've seen in coverage has been, well, this is doom and gloom for power conference programs, the sky is falling, it's gonna be horrible. Like, what do you what do you mean?
SPEAKER_00The fact that kids can move around more easily and transfer. I mean, we're like the number one transfer destination. And I love transfers. Love transfers. Uh the recruitment is mature, you know, not to take shots at 16-year-olds, but they really don't know what they want. They're they're gonna be far different individuals as 20-year-olds than they are at 16. And, you know, talking to somebody that's already in college, they've seen the landscape. They know exactly what they're gonna get because they've been to NCs, they've seen teams, and coaches interact with their athletes, whereas these high schoolers don't know any of that. And they make um they make poor decisions in terms of, you know, for example, we're in the Midwest and somebody, you know, just wants to be in warm weather. Warm weather's not gonna get you anywhere academically or from a swimming standpoint. It's it's a terrible way to make a decision. Yet there is a large percentage of 16, 17-year-olds that absolutely do that. And uh, and then later on, when things aren't working out and they're not happy, they come our way and things change. You know, like I wasn't happy initially about coming to Indiana because I was like, I'm gonna freeze my butt off. And, you know, and I heck I was in my 20s or 30s at that point. But man, now that I live in the Midwest, it's awesome. I enjoy four seasons. You know, it's you know, I think you're are you still in Cincinnati?
SPEAKER_01No, I I've never been in Cincinnati. I'm actually in South, I'm in South Jersey, so I'm very familiar with Raekwon Noel, and I know exactly what good decision you made.
SPEAKER_00I don't know, I don't know. I thought you were in Cincinnati, but but I don't know. Uh the the weather here because of climate change is really being moderated quite a bit. We get snow just a couple times a year now, and it's lovely. It's beautiful. And I would never want to go back to California now. Not not in a million years.
SPEAKER_01Well, that answers, you know, all the swim-swam posts every time USC is looking for a coach and they you know want to start up a rumor mill about you. Ray Lou's made news right here. He says he never wants to go back to California, so leave him alone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've I mean, I literally have one of the top three jobs in swimming now. Was it that way? No, but it is now in terms of resources and commitment from the university, alignment with the president, the AD, and myself. Gosh, I mean, I couldn't ask for anything more than what President Whiton does or Scott Dolson. And Scott Dolson, our our AD does that for all the sports. I mean, he made sure to lock down Kurt Signetti after we beat Oregon at Oregon so that nobody had a chance to get him to poach it. You know, and he's really, you know, made sure that, you know, we've had everything we need to to win championships. I mean, I can't I can't say enough about the people I get to work with, including my staff. Like my current staff is you know, I put them up against anybody's staff as far as like how good and competent and you know kind people they are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I want to talk about and switch bases and talk about training for a second, because I don't I don't need to get into like specifics. We don't do you know practices and sets and all that stuff. I kind of personally I've find that stuff a little bit boring. And I think if somebody listens to the podcast and you share all your sets, somebody's gonna go, oh, I got I got the sets from Ray Lou's, and they're gonna, you know, apply it to like their 12 and unders in some you know age group program in Maine, and like that's not what it's for. But one of the things I do think is you stand out, you have a reputation for high volume training, for having athletes do a lot of reps at various intensities. And I think that's a type of training that doesn't get like a lot of hype online, right? Brett Hawk has generated like so much hype for this sprint revolution. Let's train like Cam McAvoy, who's gonna do just a 50 at every international meet from here on out. And my sense of what you're doing is that it stands in pretty stark opposition to that. Now, you've coached a lot of athletes that they're sprint athletes, right? They're they're training to be international level at a hundred-meter race. Why do you train the way you do? How did you decide? And are you think I'm being fair in characterizing how you train?
SPEAKER_00I think you're talking about our program 15 to 20 years ago, frankly. So we're do we still do that stuff with the people that need it? Absolutely. But I would say that's down to maybe 30% of the program of kids that actually train that way. We have, you know, Van Matthias, he is literally going 5,000 a week. You find me somebody in America that has a, you know, the number one ranked person going 5,000 a week. You know, because he's our director of ops, he works full-time, but he's he's really, really good, and he's the number one 50 breaststroker. And it's he's doing a similar program to Cam McAvoy, you know, literally a thousand a practice. And it works for him based on his circumstances. And then we have sprinters that go singles, you know, we have people that go seven, eight practices a week, nine, and then up to ten. So we wouldn't have, you know, we have some of the best, you know, have have had some some of the best sprinting success. You know, if you look at all the strokes that's out there, and you know, we do what's appropriate, but we're highly diversified, Chris. Highly diversified. So I would say that opinion is is just um a dated one. Yeah, it's anachronistic. It's just it's just not up to what we what we've been doing um since, you know, probably 20 2012, 2013. Um we really diversified kind of you know fully by 2015. And then, you know, you start to see the Blake Peronis and the Infinities and Lilithings. So the past 10 years, you know, we have so many different groups, so many different volumes, so many weekly practice plans, but um, everybody does adhere to the same cycle. So it gives us great flexibility, you know, like we have a chessboard, you know, that's overlaid to the pool, so we can move people around and get the perfect amount of volume and intensity for every person in our program. So it's highly individualized, and we put a lot of time into planning out the week. I mean, we we might write 50 workouts a week here. If you looked at our weekly, you know, um, number of practices where we're breaking up into small groups. So on a given day, you might have five different practices, you know, it's very normal here.
SPEAKER_01And how do you evaluate? You said like you have people like Van who's just doing 5,000 a week. You have some people that are still training very high volumes, right, because they need it or that's what they're gonna respond to. When you get somebody new into your program, right, regardless of the way they've trained before they go to IU, how do you figure out like this is what's gonna, or this is what at least what I think is gonna work for this athlete?
SPEAKER_00You know, like in the case of like a Luke Ellis coming from Sandpipers, he's here because he can get a similar regime, you know, to what made him successful with the Sandpipers. But then we also have a Matt King here who was training with Coley Stickles, who I know really, really well and and can succeed with Coley and us, you know, which is you know, he's doing low volume here, primarily singles. So, you know, we do a strong vetting process, and then over, you know, over time, people reveal what they need. And we try to educate them so that they're a partner in this. And this is not it's not a dictatorship, it's a partnership between athlete and coach. And we meet with the kids constantly and uh we can fine tune things, you know, and uh we try to allow them to make decisions for themselves with just you know, a lot of experience and knowledge behind that that we try to give them as soon as possible.
SPEAKER_01Let me ask you a question about that autonomy, right? Because I think a lot of people hear that and maybe some of them are going to go, Great, like I should just let athletes decide for themselves. But sometimes that can be overwhelming, right? For the athletes, you can give them too much autonomy.
SPEAKER_00They get they have guardrails. Like if they you know if they're all over the place, you know, we'll certainly um rein that in. But when they've got, you know, when they've got flesh in the game and they're they're they feel empowered to make decisions, you are going to get people that are willing to do what they need to do, you know, to work as hard as they need to work, you know, to to you know swimming is painful no matter what you're doing. Cam McAvoy does some stuff that's painful. It's sure, but it hurts. Swimming hurts. And you want to make sure that they're fully bought in and trusting of what they're doing because then you're going to get somebody that's just going to do everything that they're supposed to do voluntarily and willingly. So even though you know we can make 20 hours a week mandatory in our collegiate season, I truly want people to be here doing things voluntarily because they want to be good. And we're looking for people with high, a high passion level of swarming.
SPEAKER_01How do you deal with it? Because you must, I mean you referenced earlier people recruiting to replace themselves, but I have to imagine that every year there's somebody that looks at you know like a van training 5,000 yards a week and you're asking them to do something else and they're like I, you know, that's not fair or I want that and and you're trying to steer them maybe more towards what you think is going to help them to be better. How do you handle those conversations?
SPEAKER_00We talk it over, you know, and um they need to make a case for you know why doing less is better for them. And if they've got, you know, if they're accurate, you know, we listen to them. You know if they're not accurate then we we we have a discussion and we educate you know hey you know it's probably not who you are. Now to swing 100 meters or above you have got to be in shape. Cam McAvoy and Van would would kind of they they do struggle to finish 100 meters. Van managed to go 59 seven but um you know he he would need to put in more training to go 58 or better. And he knows it. You know his his focus is just the 50. And so in a collegiate setting we don't we don't have anybody that's just focused on the 50. Although I did talk to Tim Lane and I you know he coached at Notre Dame and I go how do you think your system would work in an NCAA system and he goes I think it would work. So you know Van and the other guys that are in it like Finn Brooks, Brian Benzing, you know, the the guys that are doing that ultra short I mean they this group makes Brett Hawk look like a pounded out you know high volume guy. I was telling Coley the other day I go you're like high volume compared to this this group that we've got with Van Mathias and Finn Bruce. And he laughed but it's true you know his practices are like three hours long but but if you're trying to coach 100 meters and above that requires a different system. 100 meters is more related to 200 yards that that's a family that's a family of events. 200 meters is more related to 400 yards or 500 yards.
SPEAKER_01So well I think particularly with the way people swim now I mean just just the difference between a short course yards and a long course meters hundred there's so much more swimming.
SPEAKER_00Correct correct and you know Greg Meehan and Kim Williams were here from USA swimming last week you know and they they pointed out a lot of stuff you know yard swimming in this country is really improved you know um tremendously yet we are lagging behind in long horse meters because you know many of the people that are getting the most talented folks don't do the stuff that you need to do for meters. You know now they get they they're very attractive and that's you know what a 16 year old or 17 year old wants to hear but if they truly want to represent their country internationally that's a whole different ballgame.
SPEAKER_01What do you think they should be doing I mean what what what's missing in that translation from yard success to meters.
SPEAKER_00If you don't if you don't have balance between your yard success and your meter success you know if you can clearly see there is a divergence in accomplishment in one course over the other you need to look in the mirror you know and you know and and really be honest. Like with why is that and you know that's where you know people that you know that do our um you know that 30% that I was talking about where they they go nine or ten workouts a week and that's kind of like traditional middle distance and above training that is where the bulk of our Olympic medals can be fab people training like that you tell me. Okay and then you have these you have these other folks that you know they'll have somebody dive in get a ball sprint back and you know that's fun but um yeah you you might become the best 75 meter swimmer in the world but you can't finish the last 25. So the the programs there's there's just a very few select group of collegiate programs and even club programs that are getting the job done internationally. And people can sit there that have no knowledge and take pot shots or sprint revolution whatever I mean some people need to train that way and that's fine. But there's people fall under buckets and you have to you have to be honest and determined what do I need it's not what I want what do I need and and then you have to be willing to do it. And if you're not willing to do it you will become a good collegiate swimmer maybe even a great collegiate swimmer but you will fall short long horse meters and that's what need that's what needs to change. We have plenty of talent in this country but we are not in a great place especially on our USA men's team the talent is there but people people need to be willing to to do what you need to do. You know like distance training you know we were talking with Greg and Kim about what Corey Chitwood has gotten to go over to Europe and see what the Italians do and you know what the Germans do. And it's like we just look so weak. We're not doing those things. Now you know Bobby Fink is but but you know after him you know now we do those things and that's why we've gotten Luke Whitlock, Luke Gellis, Gabe Mantufel, you know that's why we've got Kayla Hahn, Downey. So we've gotten some really good distance swimmers because they're like well that's one of the few places I can go be a successful international distance swimmer. You know and I know you want to um talk about Hafnawe in the year that he spent here that was probably one of the greatest you know years of swimming that you could get out of somebody. But but when he committed to us he didn't post his commitment it was well before the Olympics he was just a good swimmer. He was a nobody that shockingly won the gold medal out of lane eight and I just I was sitting there watching the race with Greg Troy and Greg goes isn't that guy committed to Indiana but it wasn't out yet and I go yeah he is and you know it's great that he made the A final we're super pumped about that and then he wins and Greg turns to me and goes good luck keeping that guy you know but uh but what we did with him really led to a lot of the you know Salon, Sarkani led to all these people wanting to come because the results were really really good you know yeah and I only wish it changed the training environment too as well like our our system really works great you know but like saying growth he you know you look at him he wasn't any good until he left college then he broke American records after leaving college because he began to do a lot of what he needed to do. So that's that's really I'll get off my soapbox on that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01We love getting somebody on their soapbox on the podcast that's just good podcast material. I want to ask you one more thing about what you just said and then I'm gonna move on to my next topic because I I've always find myself fascinated by this right you are an NCAA coach so obviously like Indiana University one of the things that they expect out of you is that you achieve results in NCAA swimming right Big Ten titles compete at the NCAA priority one. But what you're talking about here is you also have a lot of athletes that are trying to represent the United States perhaps represent another country internationally how do you plan coming into a year to balance the fact that like yes we are an NCA team we're gonna try to achieve these high level NCA results but also there's going to be important meets in June, July, August that are going to be in long course meters and I have to have athletes ready to compete at their best at those. How do you approach that?
SPEAKER_00Well you know you need to be willing to take shots from your competitors that'll use it against you. So you know the discourse that you mentioned of us being just only only X in terms of training it's certainly not true but it is for a portion of our program that that is why those kids are here and you have to be willing to go law course year round. And that is a tremendous commitment and it's scary to do that through the Big Ten championships, through NCAAs, but it's really you have to do those things or you're not going to get on the podium at the Olympics or worlds. You're just not so we keep our finger two or three times a week in long course year round. And we do the things that you know we prioritize long course swimming and so we've become a pretty strong destination with somebody that wants to be a good international swimmer. But we take shots that are um that are inaccurate in terms of what we really do. But you got to have tough skin because you know people are going to do that. They're gonna use anything they can to compete against you and try to sway somebody's decision especially if it's a high schooler that's that's an easy person to influence with misinformation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You pride me with a perfect segue into another situation where I think people are probably taking some shots at you and that is the special setup that you've had this year with the shackle siblings caramel swim club all of that I think there's probably people from the outside again going like you know what is Ray thinking this is a crazy decision. Why would you do that? I tried to look in history and find like you know was there precedent for this Glenn and I talked about it on the phone the one time we came up thing we came up with was Maddie Crippen when she was again most people listening to this podcast are like who? You know but when she was training at Villanova that's over 20 years ago but that was a similar setup to what you're doing now. If you could just back up and talk about how this all came into existence.
SPEAKER_00It's actually been done more than you would think Ariana Kukor swam a season or two at University of Washington. There was a girl last name Amundzegar um that's Amzegar yeah she's another GA she swam for shoulder but competed for Princeton you know um and so she did a hybrid training there's a kid that um is with is training with Dave Anderson at Schrader right now. I uh he transferred from um Wisconsin I want to say to like um Milwaukee you know this there's there's a there's a school in Milwaukee and he's completely training with Dave Anderson yet competing with you know that that school that's there. It could be Wisconsin Milwaukee as well Wisconsin Milwaukee so you know the shackles are just high profile but um you know I think this is you know we the they all wanted to go to college you know and Andrew's here a hundred percent of the time he's not doing hybrid but Aaron is and Alex will and um Chris Plum is like one of the best coaches in the world not just America and we're only an hour 15 minutes hour and you know hour and 20 apart and uh it's a great way to collaborate. It's perfectly within the rules and it allows these kids to you know get the collegiate experience and you know you can only do this so long too you know you know eventually you have to just go full time you know because you run out of the ability to to take the online courses and stuff that makes it possible but you can probably squeeze two years out of it. And so I think it's a great collaboration to do something great for USA Swim. And you know Carmel Swim Club benefits and so does Indiana universities.
SPEAKER_01Yeah so maybe you would say this is one of those situations we run into them so much. I mean I even think about Indiana's a great example of a state right where there's a lot less conflict between club swimming and high school swimming because your club coach can be your high school swim coach as as I understand it. Right. And in so many other states that situation kind of devolves because egos clash right and and it's the kids that are caught in the middle that have to choose between doing something that I think is a really fun, really meaningful experience doing high school swimming and and you know and then what is probably the best year-round training environment for them, the best competitive environment for them in club swimming. So would you frame, would you think that's a the fair frame for this situation? This is like people just getting their egos out of the way and trying to come up with the best thing for the shackles and their development?
SPEAKER_00I I just don't see a downside about it. You know you're they well you know we have so much inefficiency in this country. There's these great coaches like Chris or Ken over in you know Cincinnati with Mason or Ron Aiken, you know and their kids go to college and they stop succeeding because it's not easy to switch coaches in programs. It's it's actually very difficult. So to me it's setting ego aside and doing what's right by the athletes and I literally see no negative in this at all. And our team has embraced it they're excited to have better swimmers on the squad and you know I really haven't you know the only criticism I've heard are the people sitting in their basement you know that are super fans that really don't know what they're talking about. They don't they don't understand how how things have to work.
SPEAKER_01Well that's why I wanted to have you come on here I wanted to get out of my basement I'm I want to note I am on the second floor of my house and not in the basement as I'm interviewing you right now because I don't have a basement I'm not throwing you in with that crew no I'm not in that crew uh because I'm not anonymous I commented on swim swam you use your own name. That's right I put my name to all my crazy opinions and good or bad right and I have to live with that I have to live with the record I I don't hide hide.
SPEAKER_00What the shackles are doing you know I think is is great. You know I think Alex was originally gonna just plan to go pro but was really worried about the social implications of trying to do that and sustain it. And so I gave Chris a call and I said hey would you consider this and he goes you would actually do that and I said yep and it's really put Chris and I in a position where we're friends now. And I wouldn't have said we were before and we were before what we're doing with the shackles but it took decades for us to to get close and become friendly and now there's tremendous trust and he can help us with our pros because he's at all those meets and you know in many cases our pros will have to be at a you know meet by themselves because we'll be at a college meet. So I'm just I'm thrilled with how it's working out and there are three awesome kids all all different but awesome and a great family in your professional opinion is it good to have a relationship with Carmel Swim Club if you're the head coach of Indiana University and you got to do recruiting recruiting in state it it is it is and you know it's been it's been really hard to get the respect of that program. But respect is earned and I think over time we finally gained it you know because they they're they're arguably the best high school program not just now but ever. And yeah I would say it's it's it's help helping transform our ability to win a national title.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I have one last topic I want to hit you on and we've we've covered all sorts of topics where there's a potential landmine for you. I have one last landmine but you know you've been warned about all these questions in advance and I'm gonna I'm gonna say the controversial part so to save you from having to get to it just again this is my observation from the outside looking in I feel like you should have been on the 2024 Olympic staff. And I have to imagine you were disappointed to not be selected for that and I guess where I want to start with this is as a coach you must coach people all the time who have a big ambitious goal like that and they come up short and for whatever reason it doesn't work out for them and you have to coach them through that how did you as a coach because you finished that and it was as it always is with a coach you have athletes that need you like the next day to be on top of your game to be helping them how did you deal with that personal disappointment and get yourself kind of back and locked in well I think to be honest it was the most hurtful thing that I've ever experienced in my life hurtful unfair you know you name it and the people running USA swimming they decided to to do that and it's it's probably not the first time but this was pretty egregious.
SPEAKER_00Everyone in that decision is no longer employed by United States swimming now. So I rest my case I hope it was I hope it was worth it you know to to whatever personal agendas you may have and if you have people that are in powerful positions like that you know like if I were somebody responsible for trying to produce the best results for United States swimming if I would still have people on a staff that I had problems with if they were the best. You have to be blind to petty differences. And those are always going to be there in life or and especially in athletics. And you know those people had great jobs and it cost them their careers literally wiped wiped wiped out the whole organization. I don't feel any satisfaction in that I wish they would have just done the right thing done a good job in the first place but that organization clearly lost their way I love what they're doing now. You know um I have not spoken to the new CEO but you know I love Craig Meehan, Yuri, Tim Williams, those are fantastic people that I have the utmost confidence in. So um I had to just you know I tell my kids all the time that if something bad happens to you like like Josh Matheny not making the the Olympic team in the hundred that you have to pick yourself up and I felt proud that I I I I did the best I could to do that so that you know we could finish out that competition like we needed to and then and then have a a good meet at Paris. I mean the meet at Paris that pretty much anybody had for team USA was disastrous and I ended up coaching for Lithuania and as karma would have it our team area was next to USA right next to it. So I have this bird's eye view of watching what was happening and and a lot of the coaches that were on staff came up to me and expressed their how they felt privately and you know and you could just see what was happening. So and I take no satisfaction in the kids suffering and not doing well because of poor decision making of those you know running the show. So so I guess um you know what needed to happen happened and and I needed to be a part of that process. in a negative way, but I think what's happening now is awesome and sometimes bad things happen, you know, and you have to move forward. So I don't think about it anymore at all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. There's no part of you that reflects, I mean, I guess it sounds like what you're saying is this was a political decision. You don't make any political considerations, oh, I should be a little bit nicer to so and so going forward so I don't find myself in that situation again. Or you just go, I would not change a thing. I would do everything the same, come through it the same way.
SPEAKER_00If you have problems with somebody because they question how you're selecting a relay or you know you have to have you know discourse. There there when you're on those national teams and you're arguing about relays, that happens and it needs to happen. And if there's people that don't like pushback, that's their problem. So no, I wouldn't change a thing. And if they don't like you for it then they're probably in the wrong position.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I mean I that's something we have in common. I've been somebody that I as I said I always make my critiques publicly and um I have noticed a cultural change in USA swimming as well because I've been doing it for a long time. In the beginning it was like you know who are you to question me? I'm the grand poop of USA swimming. And I do find people like I've had Greg as a guest on this podcast. He's a guy with a lot of humility. I mean he's and he's accomplished a lot. So I feel good. I feel at least more optimistic than I ever had about the way things are are headed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I mean he's got a tough job and he knows it you know the goals for 2028 are massive and um I'm gonna do everything I can to help him and his staff. And and you know but you know there was a point where if I didn't make another national team staff I was like no skin off my back. I've got a great job with Indiana and I'll pour my heart into what I'm doing now. But you know I feel great about the direction of you know what USA swimming is doing and you know and that's that's very healing to watch that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well Ray, you've been tremendous. Thank you so much for being willing to answer all these questions and go every which direction and and even challenge some of the assumptions in the questions. I appreciate that. If you're listening and you want to get in contact with me, Christycoach.com, you can fill out a contact form. You can find me on Instagram Christy underscore coach you'll find clips of this podcast. Look for the swim brief podcast on Apple or Spotify.
SPEAKER_00Ray, do you have anywhere you want to send people in terms of you know Indiana University or social media presence or anything I'm sure they know where to find us on you know Instagram or Twitter or you can find IU but if anybody's interested in those those core values they can reach out to me. I'm easy to find but um a lot of people have found them to be valuable and we were encouraged to put them down on paper and it's one of the best things we've done.
SPEAKER_01Send me that image I'm gonna share it along with this podcast for sure. So I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Share your cell phone with me and I'll text it to you.
SPEAKER_01Okay absolutely thank you so much once again thank you to everybody for listening and I'll be back again with you all in a week