Hello and welcome to the swim brief, a rapid response podcast. I mean, I guess a rapid response podcast in terms of these. We didn't get it up like the day the changes came out, but I've got two college coaches on here to discuss major changes this week to the Division I NCAA championship format. And so I wanted to bring in, you know, two parties that are right in the thick of it with things going on here, a couple of guys that uh have been on the podcast before, um, who I know have really uh thought-out opinions on stuff. So uh looking forward to this conversation. Um first uh let me introduce uh he's been on this podcast a lot of times in the last few months, the head coach of women swimming and diving from Florida Gulf Coast University, Dave Rollins. Dave, how are you? I'm well, Chris. How are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm excited for this. I I really you know what's funny is like we're our relationship is coming full circle because the first podcast I had you on, right? There was like a a collective freak out going on, and I was like, I noticed you had something positive going on, and I said, okay, let me get Dave on here and like we'll sort of counter the the panic news cycle with some actual positivity. And I kind of feel like that's probably where a lot of this is gonna go today, just based off my my pre-conversations with both of you. Um, I'm also joined by the head coach of men's swimming and diving at Princeton University, Matt Crispino. Matt, welcome back.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me here. I think the last time I was on here was COVID era, so I'm I guess I'm here for my once every five-year appearance on the swim brief.
SPEAKER_01That's not enough. That's a not enough times to have you. We could, we could, we could make better use of you.
SPEAKER_02Anytime you want.
SPEAKER_01Okay, great. Fantastic. So let me just set up what we're gonna be talking about so everybody understands where we're going today. Um earlier this week, the uh NCAA, you know, uh I'm I'm hearkening back to the swim swam article about it weeks into the NCAA season, you know, that they're very dramatic titling, right? But it is true that the NCAA season had already started and the NCAA announced these changes to the championship format. Now, these are changes that have been in discussion for quite a long time. Um I, you know, had the pleasure of attending the CSCAA annual meeting in May, and there was nothing on here that I didn't see discussed in that room at that time. So at least, you know, from for my understanding, the conversation goes at least that far back, but to me that was already in process before that. So we're talking about the end of a fairly long and drawn-out process. Um and we're gonna go through these changes one by one. And I just want to get you guys each each of your takes, um what how you think about some of these. And we're kind of gonna go from we've ordered them in at least what we think is like least dramatic to most dramatic, you know, where where people are really responding. So the first of those changes um is gonna be all about the changing of the order of events. You know, people there have been some minor changes around the um, let's say, like around the uh edges of the NCAA meet format over the last, I don't know, 10 years, but this is a pretty dramatic uh rejuggling of what events are on what day, um, with the stated purpose of, you know, we're gonna get some more marquee events later in the meet into that broadcast. You know, all a lot of this is built around changing uh the audience and hopefully getting more people interested in the live broadcast of the meet. Um to that end, the second change we're gonna be discussing is the removal of B finals um both in individual events, so nine through sixteenth place will be determined in the preliminary session of the meet. Um and relays, only the top eight relays as well, qualified before the meet will race in the finals session. So it's not it's not actually uh ninth through sixteenth, I guess in that case. You could put up the winning time in the preliminary session, right, theoretically, and win the finals. And then the third change, the really big one, um, and we'll get into more detail when we get in this, but the the changes in qualification to the win and in system. And again, we're gonna get into more detail on that in a second. Um Matt, let me go to you first. In terms of the order of events change, when you look at this specific one, um, what do you think? What what are what kind of considerations are you making as a coach looking at this new format?
SPEAKER_02Um You know what? Not not that many right now. Um I don't have the format in front of me, but I I have not memorized it. Um obviously I think we all as coaches glance at it and think about maybe some of our um faster swimmers that might be at the NCAA meet and see how it might affect their specific um layout for the meet. So I did that. And in that respect, maybe for our top guy, it's it's not a good change because he's two of his events are close together now. But you know, I don't think that there's any order of events that you could come up with no matter how many people sat down at a table and no matter how many different combinations and permutations you created that wouldn't cause some issues for somebody doubling on certain days. That's just sort of part of the sport, is that there's going to be people who double and there's gonna be people for whom they have a nice one event per day road through the meet. Um, the the thing that I do kind of like about it is the way diving is now situated.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I didn't mention that, but go ahead and say something about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, so typically at the NCAA Championship final session, you know, you go through these really high octane swimming events, and then there's upwards of an hour break for a diving event, at least on platform day. I think it takes longer because they have to get 10 meters up there and whatnot. But even on the springboard days, you know, 45 minutes to an hour by the time the divers have warmed up, been introduced, uh each dive is is announced, the scores are announced, the next one goes. Um, and I know that that not only is is uh I mean diving's very exciting, don't get me wrong, but if if you don't have a dog in that fight, if you don't have one of those eight people up there, you're kind of just waiting for it to end to get to the relays, um, and then you try to ramp back up that swimming excitement later. So splitting it into three rounds here and then another three rounds later in the meet, I think was pretty good. I honestly I think maybe two rounds would have been good. You know, there's there's there's been a lot of different ideas that have been um on the table as these conversations have occurred, as you said, for a long time now. So um I think it's a positive change in that respect. But the specific order of events, I I really haven't um really chewed on that too much so far.
SPEAKER_01I got two follow-up questions. First, I mean, has we don't have any diving coaches represented here. Have you heard from your diving coach about that format? Are diving coaches, you know, what's the temperature on them with that change? Because I think we got three swim coaches here. We're like, yeah, you know, we don't like that momentum killing from diving, but I can see a diving coach being like, this is unfair, you know, that that the the diving finals get cut in half, basically.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. My diving coach said that um the the general sentiment is that diving coaches are not enthused about the finals being split. And I can't say I blame them, you know. Right, right. So yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's that falls into the category of one of those things where you know we we are sacrificing things. I don't I don't think anybody should be naive. Like we are making some sacrifices, we're doing some stuff that may have some negative consequences. We have the hope that it will draw more people to engage with our sport to enjoy the process of like watching one of our competitions. My my my second follow-up question to you is, and and I think Dave can speak to this as well. How quickly or have there been conversations at the conference level to respond to this in turn and go, well, we got to change the format of our conference championship because you know, our conference champion Dave's laughing, so I know he's gonna have something to say about this. But but you know, that we have to change our conference format because it doesn't match up to what's at the NCAA championships anymore.
SPEAKER_03Literally the day of our coach's chair text. I didn't even see the news, I didn't know anything was happening, and I get uh a text message from their coach's chair, I'm at a swim meet, and he's like, We need to change our conference event lineup. And I'm like, what are you hold on, I'm on deck, I'm you know, I'm in the I can't talk to you. What are you talking about? And he's like, Well, it doesn't line up with NCAAs anymore. I'm gonna get on the phone. I'm just like, all right, I gotta wait 30 minutes and then I start having athletes come up to me, like, hey, did you see the news? Did you see the news? And then I finally got a chance to to look at the event order and everything. And I was like, all right, hold on. First of all, why would we immediately need to change? Because, you know, I think the NCAA can change, it affects a smaller proportion, right, than the conferences are going to. And I think we need to see how it plays out on the NCAA level before we adjust how we qualified at the NCAA level, if that makes sense. Right? Like I think a lot of us have structured our conferences to best position our athletes to swim as fast as possible over four days, right? To get that opportunity to swim at NCAAs. You know, you might have the person that's um, I I pulled up the event order now, you might have the person that swims the 100 fly and 100 back that's you know, now in the new event order, it's not on the same day. That's great. But you might also have the person that swims the tuner IM and 200 back that are now on the same day. And you know, on the conference sleep meet schedule, they're on totally separate days, and they can perform a lot better individually for your team on the conference level on separate days and have the opportunity to make NCAAs versus trying to truncate it and make it mirrored exactly. You know, they might, I think you know, you might have someone that makes the 200 IM uh time, they win your conference, they get, you know, get the 200 IM time, but they miss the 200 backstroke time, but they still win your conference, they're scoring a lot of points for your team. That's not going to affect them at the NCAA level. They can home, you know, focus on you know the 200 IM on that day. So to answer your question, probably within minutes of the announcement coming out, I'm getting text messages, and I just I want to see how it how it shakes out nationally first.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I want to go to Matt in a second, but I I I think it's I as you're answering the question. I mean, I'm I'm having the thought that, like, well, you know, Ivy League championships are already different than the NCAA meet. They have been for a long time, they have changes in the format. I do think this is probably more gonna be the Power Four conferences that uh are in that mindset of we have to have everything be exactly the same. And that not necessarily, but you you tell me what's what's going on in the Ivy League.
SPEAKER_02Nothing. We haven't had any discussions about it. Interesting. Amazing, yeah. Um, and I I highly doubt we change, I don't think we'll change anything. You're right. You know, our format is already different than the NCAA format. We have the thousand free in our men's conference week, um, among other things. So, and I mean the the two perhaps marquee conferences in Division I, the ACC and the SEC, have gone to this four-day, four and a half day uh format now that's completely different from anything. So I I I don't I don't know that conferences will change or need to change to try to mirror the new NCAA format. I think what we're seeing with a lot of these changes is that the NCAA championship is going to become its own thing, like its own animal, its own entity that is different from maybe anything else that we see in the sport because it is trying there is an attempt being made to make the meat format such that it is uh viewing public friendly. Like we want more eyes on this, we want more people to pay attention, we think we have a great product and we want it out there in the public eye. And if we want that, we need to make some pretty bold changes to the way the meat has been conducted up to this point. But I don't think we're all thinking about that at the Ivy League Championship. Like, boy, I really hope I can drive some viewers to ESPN Plus for the Ivy League Championship. The viewership is gonna be what it's gonna be. It's gonna be a bunch of Ivy League alumni and a bunch of parents that care about this, you know. Um, I would love to have a lot of people watch our meet, but I don't think we're gonna change the format to try to do that.
SPEAKER_01Or maybe you will when uh if there's a dramatic change, right? And you realize maybe we could draw eyes to some of these um conference championships. Again, I think we'll have a discussion about that again when we get to the win-it-in discussion because I think that is changing some of the calculus on how much drama, like natural drama, there is in some of these mid-major meets. Uh, Dave, before we move on, anything else you want to add to the uh event order discussion?
SPEAKER_03I kind of am a fan of the mile being on the first day.
SPEAKER_01Me too. We're gonna have such fast miles this year. People are gonna go.
SPEAKER_03They're not gonna be tired. They're just like they're fresh. It's their first swim. You know, it's gonna stink that they have to swim a 400 im the next day if that's their event. The 200 free prelims might be a little bit slower for those that range down, but like they're not they're gonna be psyched, I think. Yeah, um, I think they're gonna be so much faster. The thing that does pose a challenge is how much of a break will the athletes that have to double up on the 800-free relay get for their team after swimming that top eight mile.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I that will be challenging. If I could bet money on stuff like the mile time qualification for NCAAs will be way faster this year, and the 400 IM might be slower. Like that's stuff I would invest in absolutely, just based off of the change in order. Okay, let's talk about the next topic. Let's get into um the removal of B finals, um, the top eight relays, uh only sort of pre-qualified uh swimming at night. I know this is one where we're probably as a group quite positive on the changes, but this is the one in the pre-discussion, Dave, that you said like I'm not I'm not maybe the biggest fan of this. So tell me what you're thinking in regards to that.
SPEAKER_03I think from an opportunity standpoint, so in I mean, for a school like a par level, we get some of the NCAAs, they have a greater chance of qualifying for a B final than an A final just based on the number of athletes and how fast everybody is. And getting into that B final, it's about racing. Like we had a girl a few years ago, she qualified 16th, ended up 11th. So she moved up, you know, and for us, you know, scoring that, you know, that number of points goes from first to six, seven, whatever, whatever that number of points ends up being. And you can move it when you're at the bottom of the team rankings, you can move up six spots if you're you know gaining an extra an extra five points. So that can be uh a huge thing that teams are gonna uh potentially miss out on. But I understand the thought behind it and how uh it will help truncate like the broadcasts and and that aspect of it. I'm just you know, now we just gotta get people to swim faster so they can swim swim on TV.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Matt, what do you think? I mean, is this kind of an inside baseball thing? Like, you know, swimming people want a B final, but like nobody else cares besides the swim geeks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I mean that's a that's one way to put it, and I think that's accurate. Like, look, I I'm not I'm I'm sad that there's not gonna be B finals. I enjoy watching the B finals. I enjoy the the theater of it and the drama of someone moving up from 16th to 11th. That's awesome. Um, there have been some great moments in B finals. I I I I think back to you know, one of the best swimmers I've ever coached who won his his last race was he won the B-final, you know, and and that was like a really, really cool way to go out. Um so I think the swimming purist in me and in a lot of us is a little bit sad about not seeing B finals in there. And I think it it's understandable that people might question whether this was done in the best interest of the athletes or you know, if this is what's right for the sport moving forward. But, you know, the the question that was being asked as these changes were discussed is what do we need to do? Because we have this awesome product with these awesome athletes that are doing amazing things. We have Olympic gold medalists in our NCAA championship. What do we need to do to get more people to pay attention to this? What do we need to do to get the person that watches swimming every four years to watch it every year at this meet? Because it's so exciting, it's so high octane. We all know that. The rest of the world, the general viewing public, doesn't know that. And a lot of other sports have been very successful at moving into linear television because they did things to make their sport more viewer-friendly and they were able to compact, say, a softball game or a volleyball match into a 90-minute or two-hour window. And right now, the NCAA championship final sessions run three hours, four hours. Like that's not getting on ESPN, you know? Um, and so the message was clear. Like, if this is going to be broadcast friendly, we need to remove the things that the general viewing public is not going to really relate to. We need to remove awards ceremonies. They don't really want to see someone get their eighth place trophy, you know. Um, we all like that because it brings us joy if we have a swimmer up there, but that's not what people want. And the B finals is another one that just, you know, you don't, if you're watching swimming in the Olympic Games, they don't show there is there is no B final. There's no such thing, you know. Um, and if you're watching track and field at the Olympics or the NCAA championship, there's no B final, there's no consolation. Um, the only thing they're showing is a final, or in some cases a semifinal, which obviously we don't have, but a semifinal is still a pretty big moment, right? Michael Phelps still has to swim in the semifinal in order to get to the final. So um, yeah, it it's it's disappointing in some ways, and I I continue to wonder if there isn't a way to do it. Um, and and a lot of those ideas have been discussed, and I think will continue to be discussed. Like, can we do the B finals while the dive is happening? I don't know. Can we do the B finals right after A after prelims? Can we do the B finals right before finals? Um, there's some logistical challenges with all of those, but you know, maybe the B finals come back someday. No one said these changes are permanent and etched in stone for all eternity. Um, it we're we're we're moving toward a proof of concept that hopefully in 2026 will produce a really cool package that then in 2027 ESPN will want to put on on live TV. But um we don't know how it's gonna work, and maybe there's a place for B finals in the future, but I can't say that I'm gonna sit here and lament these changes because we're losing B finals when we know we need to do something bold and we need to do something big. And I think these change that this change in particular is bold and big, and and I think it's overall the direction we need to be going. So, and you know, uh another cool thing about it is that like you're gonna score points in prelims now. That's kind of cool, right? Yeah, that is cool. You know, like nine through sixteen, those points are going right on the board after a prelim, prelim swim. I think that's kind of cool. So there's some benefits to it maybe that people haven't considered.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it brings more, I mean, it brings actually more excitement into the prelim session, which honestly, from a like from a even from a hardcore swimming fan perspective, the prelims at NCAAs are not that exciting. And that's me. Like, if if I don't think they're exciting, there's definitely your anybody who you would der term as like a casual fan is not tuning in. But now that there's something in st at stake in the morning, is it possible that more people would tune in to see, right? Like that there could be there could be uh points that are determinative in terms of who wins the meet, right? Um being scored, for instance, in the last day preliminary session, you could have um a lot of eyeballs on that. I I think you're bringing up a point that I want to make at some point in the course of this podcast, so I I appreciate you taking it there. And that is I I pitch this to you guys as kind of an antiviral conversation about it because again, when I the way I see things covered, like if you're on a site like Swim Swam, this is I I can't get the Swim Swam guys to come on a podcast. They probably think I criticize them too much, or I don't know what I honestly I don't know what's going on with them. But if you give if you guys do listen or somebody tells you about this, this is this is a fair criticism. I'm not mad at you guys. I don't think you're bad. I think you have a site where you're trying to drive engagement. And what drives engagement on this topic is oh my god, big change, this is horrible, like people are mad, like these people are yelling at these people, this, that, and the other thing. And I think what you're pointing to is like these are some small to very big changes. We we all felt like we should change something. Here's what we think are going to be the benefits of those changes, and we'll see. We will we will revisit it and we'll see whether those panned out. I bet there'll be some unforeseen benefits to this. There will be some unforeseen um problems with all of this. And then we'll just have. To like figure out what to do from there, but that covering something like that does not like drive engagement to just be sort of common sense and be like, well, you know, there could be some advantages and some disadvantages. Like, that's not there's not enough yelling, not enough angry people yelling at each other. Um you know, not enough uh like Tucker Carlson. I'm gonna do a really old reference to Tucker Carlson on Crossfire, kind of like you know, oppositional political stuff. Um I've now we've filibustered for a long time. Dave, you've been waiting patiently. Anything else to add?
SPEAKER_03I think um I just I want to make sure that the broadcast that they have for prelims is just as a quality effort as finals, right? If things are gonna be determined in the preliminary session, nine through sixteen is gonna be determined in prelims, uh even on relays, right? Top eight relays, seated relays will swim at night, but you're gonna have, and it's been happening since time finals were in existence, people not from the seated top eight placing inside the top eight, like those events and those swims are gonna matter. Now, no offense, and we'll we'll probably have a few of you know the athletes in heat number one are probably not gonna be the ones making a huge difference, but like you're gonna want to make sure if this is a product you're putting out there that it is a quality product for both preliminary and and final sessions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think there's a level of respect there. I I I have always d termed the way that NCAA prelims is covered as kind of disrespectful. Like I remember just tuning in to see a fixed camera angle. They're just like, you know, hoping you catch the audio of the PA in the in the room. Some dude banging a drum in the background. Yeah, it's like, come on. Like, you know, I and I think this is something where I share the frustration of Kyle Sockwell because it goes back to my own swimming media days, flow swimming days. Like we were begging, please let us go to swim meets, live stream them, and get fired up about every race that's happening in the water, because there are people that are excited about it, but if they tune into this, they don't feel like anybody's with them.
SPEAKER_03Um I don't think that goes to the I mean the point we're eventually going to get into, like getting more eyes on the sport, the automatic qualifier bid, it's like if you're trying to get more eyes on the product and you're allowing mid-major schools to now have an automatic qualifier, how many of those mid-major athletes that are qualifying for the meet are actually going to be swimming in the championship A final that MB or ESPN or whomever is going to broadcast, right? If you're trying to get more eyes on it, you need to invest more where the majority of these new potential viewers are going to be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I I mean, I I think that that I agree. Like the broadcast quality on uh the production quality on prelims at NCAAs is is embarrassing for our sport. And it it needs to be better. But again, I think it's a reflection of what ESPN thinks of our product. It's like they're going to invest the resources and the money and the effort into things that are going to drive viewership, and they know that who's who's tuning in at 10 a.m. to a an NCAA prelims session. Well, it's the three of us, and a lot of people like us, you know, but um not that many others, you know. And I think um as our as our value, our perceived value goes up, um, then I think it's more likely that NC even a prelim session, which won't be on linear TV, will still be streamed on ESPN Plus or whatever the platform is, will then be given a little bit more attention because they're gonna know, like, hey, now some casual fans are interested in swimming. They might even come in, come here to watch prelims now because they know that points are coming out of prelims or whatever. But yeah, it that needs to be better, but I think it's just a reflection of how how bad the NCAA championship can be at times. I mean, it it's there are points in time where that meat is virtually unwatchable, even for those of us that love swimming. Like I take Wednesday night, it's like you couldn't script a worse session.
SPEAKER_01A more anticlimactic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, let's do the Turner Medley relay, which is like maybe one of the most exciting things in swimming. Everyone gets fired up. We got this, we got an American record, NC State or Tennessee throws down some American record, and then the place just goes silent for 45 minutes. And and there's no announcement of what the break is, why we're taking a break. There's no entertainment during the break, there's no diving. We could do some diving or something. I don't know. Entertain me. Something. I'm gonna sit here for 45 minutes, and then and then the entertainment you're gonna provide me when that excruciating break is over is the first heat of the 800-free relay. You know, like, oh man, like that is not good TV, right? Like we needed to do something to change stuff like that, and and I guess we're doing it. But yeah, it's just like change needed to happen. Are these the right changes? We don't know, but it but at least we're make taking a step, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Do we talk about the big one now? Let's talk about the big change. Let's let's get into the the the one that everybody's everybody. I'm doing scare quotes, everybody. A vocal minority, I think, is upset about this last one. Um and you know, I I I will fully acknowledge um what they have a right to be upset about. Um so the the change, just to summarize, I mean you guys one of you guys can correct me if I get any part of this wrong, is there's uh it's been done away with A and B standards. There's now just one time standard for the NCAA championship. That is pegged to a three-year rolling average of the 72nd fastest time in that event. Um, and the idea is these are pretty fast times, if you guys look at the sheet. I mean, there's not going to be easy for people from mid-major conferences to achieve these times. But if you're in one of these recognized Division I conferences, not like a Mickey Mouse fake conference like the ECAC, that's already been decided you know, done away with, right? If you're in a real legitimate conference, you go one of these times and you win your event outright, in in the process of achieving that time, you are through automatically. And then the rest of the slots in the meet are gonna be chosen from the fastest times until we reach the cap. Okay, so uh you guys are nodding, so I think I have the change correct. And what I can see as the I'll introduce the objection before and you guys can talk about um talk about that and maybe some of the advantages that you see, but I I know the objection right away, which is there's gonna be faster kids out of the meat than athletes that get into the meat potentially. Um I don't say I mean even say potentially, definitely. I I couldn't foresee a circumstance where, especially in the first year, that does not happen. That is that is going to happen. Um I think we can say that with all certainty. And um again, as swimming purists, that feels very wrong, I think, to and and like morally wrong to some people. Um but on the flip side, as we've hinted earlier, right, there there could be a lot of advantages. I'm not gonna step on the conversation too much. Dave, you go first. What do you think?
SPEAKER_03As a coach of a mid-major program, I think it's fantastic. We would have we would have benefited from this a year ago, right? Like, so um I think the the times are fast enough where you're gonna have fast competition at the NCAA championships. They're it's not a time standard. It's not they're they're way faster than B standards were, right? And so you're eliminating, you know, X number of athletes that that might have fallen under under this umbrella. Um I think that in our sport, we're very we are very time-based, right? Like everything has some sort of qualification time. Olympic trials, like FENA cuts, you know, whatever it is, there's always some sort of qualification time, and athletes are always shooting to hit whatever that time statute might be. And so it gives athletes a specific target time to shoot for, knowing that they still, obviously, they still have to win, win their event. Whereas previously you could swim a time that you're like, okay, this could do it. And then two weeks go by and 17 last chance meets and all of this stuff happens, and all of a sudden you're not in the meet anymore, and you didn't find out until the they released all of the information. Unless you're you know someone like me that you're on Meet Mobile, you know, searching for last chance meets and going up through everybody's webpage, work at this one B, work at this one B. But most people aren't doing that. But this is also allows mid-mid-major uh conferences, and I'm hoping that most will capitalize on it to make a big deal out of that moment, like other sports do, right? Like you win the basketball tournament, you know you're having the confetti fall. I'm not saying you're gonna do this for every event, but you're having the confetti fall like it's a big deal, that you now know this athlete is gonna compete at the national championships. And I'm trying to make sure that we make sure it's a big deal. Because if we don't make sure it's a big deal, nobody's gonna make sure. Like it's it's our job as coaches to make sure the conference understands we have to capitalize on this opportunity. But I think the other side of it is in I I think there's a little, and I don't know if anyone else is talking about this, there's a little fatigue administration across, I don't know, it could be across the board, maybe not, and I could be wrong, that like swimming's different. Treat us differently than you do everybody else because we're so different. Like if we want to be a viable sport moving forward, like we can't always live on an island of we're different, treat us differently, but you don't understand like how we you're how we qualify. Just let me tell you how this might eventually work, right? Like it's possible, but we won't know. So, like, but you just have to trust me. Like it this this gives administrators, this gives news crews, casual fans, whatever, they know for sure Susie Johnson just made NCAAs based on that one swim, right? And so and that's something that they can they can chew on. Um, but then no matter what change you do, automatic qualifiers, not automatic qualifiers, somebody's gonna be upset. Like, how many really good basketball teams get left home every year because St. Johnson Technical College of the Poor make you know wins their conference and and they get to go? Um, so you're not gonna always please everybody, but I think for the sport in general, I think it's I think it's great.
SPEAKER_01Dave, can I ask you one follow-up question to that? Um just you're talking about your administration, and um, you know, you and I have been on here before. I think you you don't maybe have a typical admin for a mid-major school. It's maybe not comparable in some very positive ways to other people's situation. But I think part of the argument that's being made here for this is that it is going to matter to athletic directors when you know there's more schools participating in the NCAA championship when you can say to them, like, hey, uh, we're we're a part of the NCA championship this year. Is that something you think is acable where you're working? Like, that is that gonna be your athletic director cares whether or not you participate in the NCA championship? Because the stereotype is like athletic directors just care about conference results and they don't really no, they think it's great.
SPEAKER_03Like we they they want us competing on the national stage. And so more opportunities for us, that's that's fantastic. And when I when the news came out, I sent over the um you know the little NCAA blurb and the email response back was let us know so we don't have to like and I'm I'm ad-libbing, it's like we're not gonna we didn't read the whole thing. Where does it say? Like, just dumb it down for us. How is this a good thing for us? I'll tell you this is how it's a good thing, this is how we're gonna know, this is how we can capitalize on it, and they're like, Great, this sounds good, appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02But it's it makes sense that it like you would understand why a power four coach would similarly forward that to their AD and say, This sucks for us.
SPEAKER_03For sure, yeah. Yeah, I was I was also in that in that boat at Ohio State where we had the guys qualifying, you know, last minute. So now we can take 12 guys, 13, 14, 15, whatever guys to to NCAAs, because that also looks really good, right? Like you can say, I'm taking a team of 14 people to the national championships versus you know, now all right, well, Johnny gets left home because you know St. Cloud State Technical College has to go.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I say this with no shade to the power for uh seriously, no shade. But like just to give an analogy, Dave, if there was a rule that was like if your coach is a six foot four redhead, you know, you get a two-second head start in the 50, and then everybody was like, hey, that's unfair. Like we should change that for next year. I would expect you to be against that. I would expect you to be like, no, no, no, let's hold on to this. Right. And I I I use that as kind of a ridiculous example, but like I think one of the most important parts of this, and we're gonna get to Matt, is um we have had absolutely atrocious parity in Division I swimming since I can remember. There is just huge gaps to the extent that um whereas in in in other sports, you know, that that that 13 seed in the NCAA tournament can legitimately beat the four seed, or we've seen even 16 seeds, right? Very rarely, but that that would never happen in swimming. Like the 64th best team has zero chance against the number one team in the country. In fact, like in women's swimming, in women's NCAA Division I swimming for several years, going into the meet, there's been little to no drama over who's going to win. And I don't think that that's like good for Virginia, amazing. Congratulations to Todd DeSorbo, like you're you're kicking everybody's butt, you're doing awesome, but not, in my opinion, good for the sport to just have competitions be a foregone conclusion. There's no drama in that, there's nothing for the spectators, there's nothing um there's nothing competitive about it. And so I see this as something that brings some parity. Uh, I hope, especially over the long term, that it will influence recruiting, that talent will sort of distribute itself a little bit more evenly, um, that recruits will be making different calculations in that regard. Matt, where's your head at when you're looking at this change? I get the outrage.
SPEAKER_02Like, like I just said, like, you know, yeah, like I if I were a power for head coach right now, I'd probably be like, this is not helping me, so I'm against it. Um, you know, so I guess that being said, like all of these changes and and everything that the really the at the core of the mission of our College Slim Coaches Association is preserving, protecting, expanding our sport at the collegiate level. Like that is at the core of what uh our organization, our professional organization is trying to do. And the bottom line is having more programs from the mid-major level represented at NCAAs is good for the future of our sport. It makes our sport more sustainable at more levels. And uh if we are not able to continue to have the number of teams sponsoring swimming that are currently sponsoring swimming, the size of the championship will shrink. Like, you know, if the Cal Polys of the world continue cutting swimming and fewer teams are sponsoring men's swimming, women's swimming, whatever, like the championship field is gonna is is is pegged to membership, right? You know, so we need to have a lot of teams, have a lot of schools that want to have swim teams. Swimming is a big investment for most schools, right? Like pools are expensive to build, expensive to maintain. Uh, they lose money, you know, like it's an it's an expensive sport. And if we want more athletic departments to say, yeah, I want swimming to be at the center of what my athletic department is all about, having an opportunity to compete at the NCAA championship level is huge. It's absolutely huge. I was at William and Mary for 12 years, my alma mater. Outside of one female athlete who um who I inherited there when I first got there, I never had anybody make NCAAs. And on the men's side, we had zero people make NCAAs. We won our conference. Um, what they won after I left, I think it got up to six years in a row. The men won the conference, the women won two conference titles in there as well. And my athletic director at the time told me flat out, your conference titles are nice, but like, why can't you get yourself at the national meet? Damn it, I'm trying, you know, close. And I mean, we had a you know, a freestyler at the time was you know 195 and he didn't make it, he just barely missed it, you know. But in that in this setup, he would have made it. You know, I would have probably had multiple people make the meet. Would any of them have scored in the at the meet? No, you know, but um having them there is good for the sport. Does it mean that somebody faster doesn't get to go? Yes. And does that feel inherently unfair to our very objective time-based sport? Yes. But like the reality is automatic qualifier is part of almost every other NCAA field, right? Like we use the basketball example a lot. Like those are not the 68 best basketball teams, you know. They're also not the best uh the best field of um 100-meter dash runners, right? Like it's also not the best field of soccer teams, it's not the best field. Even the biggest meritocracy of all, BCS football, gives an automatic bid to the to the group of five conferences, right, into the college football playoff. Like those are not the best 12 teams. At the Olympics, those are not the best 50 athletes in the world competing. We know that because if it were, it would be half Americans. Like there are very few sports where it's just the very best competing. And maybe some might say that's what made our sport special. Um, I would say it made it very, very exclusive to the rest of us um in the world who are who are trying to get there, just trying to be relevant, to be present, to be at the meet. Um so I don't know. I I think this is a good change, but I understand the uh objection to it. I think we've been talking about this. I can remember a CSCAA annual meeting probably eight or ten years ago where we were throwing out ideas about some kind of an AQ, back to like the Greg Earhart, back to the Joel Schinnefeld era of College Slim Coaches Association. So, you know, I would say to coaches who are upset about it, I'd like to see you there in Chicago in May. You know, like when we're when when these discussions are happening, they're discussions that affect all of us, you know, and your your presence at meetings like that are important. And your voice is important, and we want all voices to be heard. Um, and at the end of the day, I think this is a decision that's really, really good in terms of the sustainability and the long-term future of our sport at the collegiate level. Um and it's not just, I want to point out, it's not just power fours that might lose people from the championship field. Like if this rule were in place for last season, the Ivy League would have gained three women, three Harvard women, would have gained two men, a guy from Brown and a guy from Princeton. But we would have lost Penn's female Milo, because she was one of the last ones in. Um and we would have lost Columbia's male 200 brushstroker. And that would suck for them. Like, you know, um, and I would feel bad for them. But on the net, it would still be a positive for a conference like the Ivy League, it would be a positive for a conference like the CAA where I used to coach. So sorry for my soliloquy there, but um I I think this is a good thing, if you can't tell.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I uh as you're saying it, I mean, I I think you make a really good point about getting in the conversation and you're allowing me to bring up another thing that I I've been wanting to say on this, which is again, I'm gonna critique the swim swam coverage of it. You know, they put out an article that was like, look at the committee that recommended this. It's full of there are no power four coaches and a bunch of officials. I'm like, listen, guys, if you're at Cal, you have put yourself forward for the committee. You can be on the committee. Nobody, there's they didn't make up a committee to go like nobody in a power four conference can be on this committee. Like, stop treating some of this governor and stuff as like, oh, that's for the dorks. Like, let them go, you know, have their silly meeting and discuss this stuff. Like, get involved. If you don't like the way things are going, I do think that that is a totally legitimate criticism. The one sort of more narrow objection I can see to this, and I want to be empathetic, is having coached at a, let's say, I think with even in the even within the power four, right, there's a lot of variation in some of these schools. And having coached at maybe a um a lower half power four kind of school, um, at least how they finish in the conference in the in my past, Georgia Tech, I can see how they're feeling really battered right now. Like they've they've got this roster limit stuff coming in. They're feeling like that's putting them in jeopardy, right? I don't I most of the mid major coaches I was talking to were like, hey, this is good. More more for us, right? Dave's increasing scholarships. Like a lot of these schools are like, we're gonna make a bigger roster, right? In response. So they're feeling the pressure on that front and then they take this hit as well and they feel like, oh God, like you know, like everything's against us right now. I I I definitely have um an empathy for that group. When when you use the college football analogy, like am I worried that Ohio State is gonna not be alright? No, they'll be fine. Like the the the really big cow, the big guys, the big schools, the the traditional powerhouse schools, they will be fine. I do worry somewhat about the sort of lower half power for conference teams um who may be negatively impacted and and you know they have an athletic director who's totally focused on getting NLI money to the football team right now and and they're just they just feel like this is one more nail on the coffin for them.
SPEAKER_03Did they figure out or has anybody figured out how many on average spots per event this would affect I know SwimSlam has run some you know some models basically looking at past years.
SPEAKER_01Like um I don't have those offhand but I think we're talking about you know potentially 20 or 30 I think that's but I think that's total athletes.
SPEAKER_03From what everything I've seen it's like total athletes that would be affected right but how many people like per event would that then turn into it's probably like between one and five. Right. So but it could be a lot of events could be one or two people really right so then you're still looking at it from like all right well in the whatever we'll say the 500 freestyle it's two automatic bids that got in so now on the women's side that's 35 36 people the 36 fastest in front of them get to go. Whereas you know it's not like this isn't a dramatic number of of people like per event that are going to be ultimately affected. It's gonna be a small a small number part of the reason why they made the cuts as fast as as they did. I mean previous numbers they were throwing out were in the 80s somewhere and you know that would obviously affect significant more significantly more more people so I I mean the and the time standards are going to keep getting faster right like they're they they do almost every single year the times are going to continue to get faster and so I think it'll eventually shake its itself out pretty well but I do I agree I agree with Matt we had to we're shaking something up this is a big old shakeup and I'm just excited to see how it goes.
SPEAKER_02And this isn't the first time this has ever been done right like I I understand that there was a time when if you won the division two or division three conference you got an automatic bid to division one and and let's let's also keep in mind that like the diving field at NCAA's is not the best what is it third 40 divers in the country. It's not because we have no no because we have a zone qualification process similar to track and field. Like that's and no one's been complaining from the mountaintops that there's some diver from Princeton or UMass that gets into the meet over the sixth best diver at Indiana you know at least I haven't heard those complaints. I don't know I don't think you hear basketball coaches going let's get rid of these automatic qualifications for these small conferences so that we can just send the 68 best teams they're just like I got to play better. You know I can't be ninth in the SEC or or 11th in the ACC and expect to get an at-large bid I gotta play better. And I've heard you know I heard I heard the Arthur Albiero who's the president of the board of the CSCAA say yeah this is going to affect my program and you know what we got to swim faster. And I don't know I just kind of like that sentiment. It's like we all we're all trying to swim faster and if we do then we're gonna have greater representation you know when you talk about like the sort of the lower half of the power four I I heard a coach say I'm not gonna say who but I heard a coach say you know this might put me in a position I only have five guys at the meet instead of seven or women I don't know what gender we're speaking of you know I might have to really figure out whether I want to prioritize like my 800 free relay or my 400 free relay based on the number of relay only swimmers I can bring. My reaction to that was like welcome to our life most teams are not bringing 18 people to the NCAAs where you can just put up your best relay on on all of them. Like if you only get two relays qualified like or three relays qualified you might have to prioritize one and you might put up a really crappy 800 free relay you know that's part like if you want to be better get more people to the meet. Swim faster it's sports it's competitive like let's go you know and I get that that might sound antithetical to like let's just bring the fastest kids in the in the country but like that's just not how most championship fields in most sports are comprised it's just not you know we were we were unique. We were the most top heavy sport in the NCAA. We are the most top heavy sport in the NCAA when you're talking about the number of power conference schools represented at the meet is something in the 90s percent I don't know I don't remember the numbers Greg Earhart ran those a few years ago it was like 92% of the athletes at the NCAA championship were from the power conferences.
SPEAKER_01That's just not good for our sport you know yeah I think you bring up you bring up I want uh another thing that I think is really important to bring to this conversation you talked about relay only swimmers and that's visceral for me because like the last time I was coaching in the NCAA that was the change that we made to NCAA qualification and I've mentioned it on this podcast before but like I remember the conversation in the room and the the the guys at the top of the NCA were not for that change. They liked being able to use count relay only swimmers against the cap and using that as a way to get athletes into the meat. Who thinks that was a bad change now? Find me somebody it's gotten it's made the meat more competitive it's it's really improved things. So I think there's it's natural to have kind of a visceral like negative reaction to it in the moment if it is hurting you in the short at least definitely in the short term your competitiveness. But I think that's a useful example because I do believe this is something we're gonna look back at in four years. And I I think there'll be more teams more athletes qualifying this way out of mid-major conferences and we're gonna go this is awesome. Like we're most people are going to be positive on it I think in the long term even some of these power four conference coaches.
SPEAKER_03Well and this isn't the first time there's been like a major shakeup to qualifying for NCAAs. I don't want to toot my own horn I was a nine time all American I never individually qualified to NCAAs. I swam on a relay that made it and I got to swim any event I had a B cut because that was what you had to do. As long as you were on a relay that made an A cut you could swim whatever events you had B cuts in. So I never had to swim my fastest until the time came. And then when they changed that qualifying procedure you went from 20 whatever individuals to it was like low 20s in the individuals to now it's like upper 20s low 30s right so every event has expanded 10 to 15 people whatever whatever the number ends up shaking out to be and at the time you know people were like wow this isn't this isn't how we've done it but it's going to expand there's going to be more people more individuals get to swim it's all based on individual qualification now and now everybody loves it right like now you have you know now the challenge is now can you get A cuts on relays right whatever um so it's just gonna take some time right before you know we're gonna come back and you know follow up on what you're saying Chris that like now we're gonna be like okay this is this has been very good.
SPEAKER_01So you're saying change is hard and people overreact sometimes is that who knew right is that the theme here it's just like you're you're yeah you're targeting something very cathartic that I a theme that I come back to often in my coaching which is yeah like people you're always gonna end up being short term reactive to stuff but sometimes that can prevent you from ever making a long-term change that systemically make things better in the long term and that goes for teams that goes for individuals um and everything in between it really it really is a sort of a universal factor so um again that conversation's not gonna drive engagement online but I think it's it's true.
SPEAKER_02Well the yeah the the the comments section feeds into that right like the the the outrage here I think a lot of it is groupthink you know like you see like oh all these people are outraged I feel like I should be outraged too because why would we change something? Why would we change something? You know I love it so much. I love you know like yeah there's a few hundred of us that love it so much you know yeah but if we want a you know a few million people to be engaged like we got to think about it differently you know I was I have in my office someone gifted these to me like some old um swimming guides from the 50s look at this 1953 so it has like the results from the previous year's NCAAs and then it has the rule book in it you know for the for the following year and and in the rule book it lists like you know the order of events for the NCAA championship you know it included the 300 medley relay you know because butterfly wasn't flying yeah it had you know we we swam the 220 and the 440 Chris like you had to stop at the flags in the 220 yeah they had to drop the rope right yeah the the the sprint event was called the short dash we used to have the plunge yeah dive and glide at dual meets you could play a game of water polo and have that count if you wanted to that was an option that was in the rule book and it's like how are we why are we changing and it's like imagine if we still did it the way we did in 1953 like change is okay everybody like we're gonna we're gonna be fine the sport is gonna be fine um this is this is an effort to um raise our profile expand our profile a little bit get more eyes on the sport everybody thinks this is so great why doesn't anybody watch well let's see if we can make something that people want to watch and then see what happens and if it flops then we'll make some more changes and figure it out but we've always figured it out you know like we went to 2000 to 2004 the meet was held in short course meters right we thought that was a good idea that was a bad change we all agreed like let's change back right maybe maybe these are bad changes but we got to try something so yeah yeah who is the guy I I know now we've always just gotten into the silly portion of the podcast where you've brought out a 1953 swimming guide and this is the point where I I just don't care if anyone's still listening we're just doing silly stuff so who's the guy he's a Princeton guy he's in your hall of fame who invented the flip turn what's that guy's name just just so you know I just to explain this I worked at at Princeton a couple years ago and I'm the type of guy who reads every Hall of Fame plaque and the reason I bring this story up and and we'll well maybe we'll try to edit you knowing the name back in the podcast somehow um but is is this guy who invented is credited with inventing the flip turn um and he was you know I think he was like an NCAA champion or is really high level uh backstroke swimmer and you go okay oh the flip turn yeah so when did he invent that like 19 you know seventy eight and it took a few years to catch on and people no nineteen like in the nineteen thirties or nineteen forties.
SPEAKER_01So to me that always I always return to that example because I think people saw that guy doing flip turns in the 40s and went no it's faster to put your hand on the wall and just turn around for another 40 years like in backstroke.
SPEAKER_03Yeah there you go who is it it's Al Vanderway of course Al Vanderway I didn't want to ruin it for you Matt I wanted to give you an opportunity right on the tip of his tongue he was like how can you forget about Al Vanderway how long after the flip turn was invented did they actually allow it in backstroke? Well that's probably true too like 60 years whatever like you can watch videos from like the 80 80s Olympics and people are still touching and turning around and like Yeah I mean John Neighbor's sub two minute long course two back with open turns was is remember continuous impressive swims I've ever seen.
SPEAKER_01Amazing yeah no underwaters open turns just straight off push off the wall with your mustache and and sling some backstroke and go under two minutes and long course no wedge no tech suit nothing yeah no okay that's where we're gonna finish on that silly conversation about backstroke and flip turns and when they were allowed and Al Vanderway never forget I can't believe brief listeners do not forget Al Vanderway okay he was an innovator good old flip turn Al. Guys thank you thank you for thank you for both coming on thank you to everybody for listening I hope you guys really enjoy this podcast. Donate to the podcast you can go on my website scroll down a little bit you can make a one time donation or a recurring donation otherwise I'll keep you doing the podcast for free even if you don't do it. No threats from me but you know it it makes me feel nice about doing this. If you're a loyal listener and you want a way to give back that's that's one way you can do it. Thank you one more time. I know I already said thank you but you know it feels like I should say it one more time and uh I'll be back with everybody in a week.