Before we get into the podcast, let's get serious just for here for a moment. I'm aware that this is probably going to be my most listened to podcast to date, and I want to ask you, the listener, something. My goal is to make this podcast the number one podcast for swim coaches across the world. To make that happen, I need help from you. I don't try to go viral or feed social media algorithms with my content. So I need your help to get some attention on this podcast. Please give us a rating wherever you're listening to it. Follow me on Instagram and leave comments on either. Beyond that, I want to hear from you, the audience. Who do you want to have as a guest on the podcast? What topics would you like me and Dave Rollins, been doing some podcasts with him, to discuss when we're getting down to the psychological side of coaching? Ultimately, this podcast is going to succeed in that goal based on whether or not it serves you, the listener. So let's make it happen. Finally, this will come out less than a week before my appearance at the CSCAA annual meeting, where I'll be speaking and moderating panels. If you're planning on attending and listen to the podcast, please don't be a stranger. Come say hi. And I look forward to meeting you there. Okay, on to the podcast. I'm Chris DeSantis, and uh here's Bob. You you guys know Bob, right? How are you, Bob? I'm doing great, Chris. Thanks for having me. I was just having the moment before this, that panic that I always have about how to introduce people. And I think that if I spent the beginning of this podcast, you know, introducing all the contexts in which people know you, it would be a long time until we could finally get to a question. And, you know, people don't want to hear that piece of it, they want to hear your insight, um, Bob. So we're gonna get we're gonna get right into it. Uh been been thinking about this podcast. We've had this in the works here for a couple months, and I know you've been around a lot of other places, and I've been trying to keep track of you in some of these other ones because I I don't want to like necessarily go over some of the same stuff, but also I'm listening to it and saying to myself, like, what would be interesting to follow up on? So I'm watching you on the podcast with um Katie Hoff and Missy Franklin, and I think it captured something that I have noticed, um, and maybe a lot of other people have noticed. I mean, you got to be like the most observed swim coach in America. It must be actually strange for you, people have this impression that they know you, right? This is the first time we're having a conversation. But anyway, I think if I compare like listening to you on something early in your career to how you were uh in that context, and I've noticed this in some other stuff that you're doing, you're kind of like, I it seems like personally moving into a different stage of your career. I think you called it something on the Katie Hoff podcast, like you know, the your your grandpa days era, your grandpa era. Yeah, and I'm I'm really curious about that. So if we if we go back in time, um what do you think was something early in your career that you just completely dismissed, right? Like that's not important, that's not gonna matter. People are worrying about this, but it just doesn't make any sense. And the the longer you coach, the deeper you get in into your career, the more you're convinced actually this is quite important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, there are a couple of things. Um the first one that came to mind was like nutrition. Back in the when we started, it was just like they just work hard, eat anything, doesn't matter. Now we know that's really critical. So that's like a basic one. Um I think that in general, uh the thing that I think is more important now than I thought was not important at all back then is balance, some balance, right? And I realize that um when you're in the pursuit of something at a very high level, there's going to be imbalances, right? You're gonna spend a pr a disproportionate amount of time on your work, on these things. I used to spend a hundred percent of my time on those things and nothing else on the other part. And I realize now what a mistake that was, and I wish I had done better at that earlier because now I think it's critical that I have I carve out times in my schedule for just me or my family or all of those things. Um, and it's made me, I think, a much better coach. Uh, I have much better relationships with everyone. And I think I do a better job planning the programs. All of the things that I love to do 100% of the time, I do a much better job at when I'm doing them 70% of the time or whatever it is, you know, during those phases. Uh so I think that's probably the main thing that I would go back and do.
SPEAKER_02And and to follow up on that, like what would you say made that shift for you, right? Because I think it's easy for all of us to fall. I know I've fallen into that trap a lot of times in my life, right? Where I just go like, but this is important. I've got to put every ounce of energy I have into it, and not realizing kind of how inefficient that is at a certain stage and how much you're sort of capping your progress. So for you, like when did you when or how did you start to shift that?
SPEAKER_00Probably started the the shift started after Beijing, right? Because the the 120% time was leading up to Beijing, right? To get this done and it got done. And then I came home and I just kind of stayed on that path, but Michael wasn't on that path anymore, and created some issues, right, for all of us. Yeah. And I didn't take a break after Beijing. It's the dumbest thing in the world. How could I do that? I took like a week and then I started coaching because I had moved to Baltimore doing all these things. So I was struggling, and then I started getting really tired. I got frustrated. I was hard, you know, just everything was rough in that time. And uh during that time later, I moved to Arizona, and shortly after he moved to Arizona, um, Michael and Nicole had Boomer, right? Which was in the beginning, I was like, wow, okay, great. We're gonna be getting ready for the Olympics with a child here. It's gonna be kind of not easy to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it'll just be a thing. And then I went over there the first time I saw him and held him, and I was like, wow, this is amazing. And they named him after me, right? His middle name is Robert. So I uh started spending more and more time with him, trying to take carve that time out of my schedule, started doing more kind of family type things. Um, and that was really the big impetus. And then they kept having more, so it took more of my time because I wanted to do more of that. But I but I do think that that was something that I hadn't really had available to me for a while, mainly because I was just this crazy work guy. And um, that was the change. It also changed how I coach. You know, I'm old enough now that these guys and young ladies that I'm coaching here, uh, they can be my kids, right? I think I could, they almost be my grandkids, right? Yeah, maybe. So I I I try to think of them, I just think of them differently after my experience with Michael's kids. You know, I'm more much more parent-like instead of just coach, teacher, all those things. And I think that's made a big difference in my coaching as well. It's a little, I think it works a lot better. And I take better care of them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, I I think that's a really interesting point. I mean, a couple things that I hear there is one thing, I think as a parent myself, I've got young kids at home. You know, I notice like my in-laws, you know, the my kids' grandparents seem to be having a much better time with them than I am, you know, and I think it is like it's it's one thing to be um, you know, I think coaching Michael and sort of uh raising him up. And then there's all of a sudden there's this other generation, and you're like, I better remember to have a little bit more fun this time, I think, is is the attitude on the on the second round, because the first time you're so focused on getting everything um getting everything right. One thing I want to ask you about in in regards to all this, because I just I can't help but get curious. So I'm hearing like the the new warmer cuddlier Bob. It's you gotta be really tough on people still, right?
SPEAKER_00I mean Yeah, I do, I do.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So how do you how do you balance that? I mean, you obviously like right, you you said it. I'm I'm treating these athletes more like you know, they could they could be my own kids and and thinking about them. I guess I mean probably the best way to phrase it, just be in a more empathetic place. But at the same time, on the other end of it, you've got to deliver some hard, hard truths, right? You gotta tell people what they need to hear in order to get better.
SPEAKER_00How do you how do you balance that? It's great, great question. Um I think it's really about the delivery, right? Before it just used to be full-on machine gun all the time, right? You know, like you're gonna be fired. Yeah, exactly. We've got to do this now. And now it's there are times when I, you know, with the team at Texas or the team at ASU, um, where I had to kind of get their attention, right? But I do it, I get their attention and then I'd explain what we're doing and move on. Whereas it used to be, I would get their attention and yell at them for 30 minutes about why we weren't doing what we're supposed to do, and then whatever would happen. Um so I think I'm trying to use every I can be demanding, but I don't have to be a jerk about it. You know what I mean? I can say, no, our standard is this. This is what we're here to do, you know? And uh what what was funny? Chase was here, and um, we had had a a practice, and they had started this set and kind of got it. It didn't go, the the interval wasn't right, they left at the wrong time. You know, it's one of these things where people in lanes they just weren't going, and like, how is this even happening, right? So I just stopped everybody. It's like, look, start again on the top, and that was it. I literally just said, start again on the top. And they just did. And after practice, Chase said, Yeah, I was in the locker room, and these guys are like, wow, Bob really yelled at us today. And Chase is like, you have no idea, dude. That was as nice as he can be about that. So I think that was kind of a good example of how things have shifted, right? Um, and and the a funny thing, you'll you'll probably like this. I found out at uh Texas that, and I don't even know how they got, I'm sure in comparison to Eddie, it was easy for them to start this because I do kind of you know get excited about things, but they keep a running tally in the locker room on the whiteboard of days since we've been yelled at. Right? No way. Again, what being yelled at for me is like, hey, come on, get it together, right? It's not like it used to be getting yelled at. But it's I'm always like in the 60s now, so we're doing pretty good. I'm going months at a time.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, no, it's it's just funny that they they even see that. But uh, I try to be cognizant of that because number one, it's exhausting for me. Number two, it's not the right way to do it. We can communicate much better. And uh, I can still be demanding on that. That doesn't mean the standards change, it just means the way I deliver the information has changed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's one of the most misunderstood things. Uh, you know, my background is I have this master's in applied positive psychology. And so people, I think, have all sorts of uh assumptions about what it means to be positive as a coach. And I I the story I always tell is right when I was getting the program, I think I had to tell some kid, I was at the University of Pennsylvania, I had to tell her that her attendance wasn't good enough to swim in the meat. And she said, I thought you were supposed to be the positivity guy. Like, I don't I don't like what you're saying to me right now. And I said, Listen, that doesn't mean that I can't tell you, like, hey, you didn't come to practice, you're not swimming in the meat, right?
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, you're the real, the realistic guy, the re the facts guy. I'm just the facts guy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I think, but I but the reason why I asked that question in the first place is I think the real interesting part is there's a there is a greater understanding, I just think writ large among coaches, okay, we perhaps don't have to communicate those truths the same way they were communicated in the past, but we still have to tell the truth. A hundred percent.
SPEAKER_00I think is a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And I and I just don't want I guess I don't want people to miss because I think a lot of people interpret it as, well, now I can't tell the truth anymore because I gotta be positive. And I I think that's one of the biggest mistakes you can make as a coach because athletes can tell when you're just sugarcoating it for them. And it actually really hurts them psychologically. I mean, it really For sure. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. I mean, have you have you have you ever now I'm now I'm now I want to ask you a question based on how you responded. Have you ever felt like you you, Bob Bowman, you you sugarcoated something and you were like, I shouldn't have done that, you know? I I should have I should have Yeah, plenty of times.
SPEAKER_00Plenty of times. Um and I used to do it with uh Allison Schmidt. That's the times I'm remembering. Um, because she was such a just so delightful young woman. I started working with her when she was 13, right? So, and she's always kind of sunny and happy and um tries hard, does all the things that you would like. And I there was uh a time before where things were not going really pretty well, and we had had this practice, and she had done some set, I can't remember what it was now. But I remember her getting out of the pool and I was like, Well, not too bad. And she's like, Are you can you can just tell me it was terrible? You know what I mean? Like she was like, you can just say I didn't do this, and I'm like, okay, I will. There you go. So, you know, it was so now I but because I just I mean, I love her to death, and I I it's hard for me to be hard on her at all, right? Yeah, I would just say, Well, you you'll do better tomorrow. That's okay. She's like, it's okay if you just tell me that sucked. You know, I was like, okay, I I shall. And it's uh it's just part of our relationship together. I learned a lot of things from Allison about uh so many things, you know, because there was times when she wasn't very good. And uh, you know, I learned one of the most important lessons that I've learned from her was um she got out of practice one time at the training center before 2012, and this is when she was doing quite well and just started crying, just falling on the deck. And I did what most men try to do make it stop and fix it, right? Okay, what what we can do this. What do you need to do? I'm uncomfortable. What do I do? Exactly. What do I do? And finally, she's like, I don't need you to do anything, just be here. And that's what I did. And you know, so you just kind of learn things like that as you go, and then I can apply that in a broader sense to other people and hopefully just improve my coaching or improve my humanity and just be a better person as we go through.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. All right, let me let's shift off this for a second and let's let's get into some of the broader stuff with college swimming. Like, I I don't want to be another podcast or another one of these things where we're discussing house or NIL or anything. Okay. Um but let me ask you this sort of big question. As you look out on the college swimming landscape and just say, like, I think swimming is a very small community and we're we're we're a little subculture, right? Within the within the world. It's one of the things that I love more than anything. Um but if you look out on that subculture, what is something that you think, gosh, I wish I could just change this? You know, like if I just had if they just made me, you know, minister of swimming culture and I could just tell everybody else what to do, what would you do?
SPEAKER_00I wish that people weren't so firmly entrenched in their ideologies about how things should be done. And you know, and I have some strong beliefs about what I think is important, and and it could be training, it could be the way these programs are run, it's how you plan a season, all of these things. But I I feel like there are so many kind of camps, and we've we it people get you know more likes on Instagram or more pictures or whatever they get by kind of being polarizing, you know? And I think if people could uh just realize that this almost everything we do is not a hundred percent black and white. There's just it's a spectrum of things, right? What is endurance training? It's a whole spectrum of things, it's not one thing. What is sprint training? It's a spectrum of things, it's not one thing. Um, and I I think if we could sort of just everybody realize that we're all trying to do the same thing, there are different ways to do it, which I think is great. I think our strength as a country is that we're free to do whatever you want to do. Please do it. But you don't have to denigrate the other people, you know? And you also don't have to just take this extreme position and hold on to it, although you're welcome to do that. But I think if let fewer people did that, we would be better as a country and we could help the athletes more. Um, I I I tried to like, you know, I was trying to explain to a coach the other day about my coaching philosophy, right? Because I get this thing, I'm 400 IM mile, whatever. I do that. I don't do sprints, although my guy just went 433 and 100 back. I don't know. I thought that was a sprint, but anyway. Um and I was like, well, I I kind of look at it like a painter. I want to use all the colors. And I and there are some people way over on this side, they only paint in black and white. And okay, they do their thing. And there's some over here that only use red way over here. And I think the more that I'm in the middle, I can take the best of each of those and we can kind of put things together and do that. And I think if we had a little more, uh, I don't know if forgiveness is the right word, but if people were just a little more understanding of other people's viewpoints, we could grow and learn about what's going on in swimming. Great example of that's me and Herbie, right? We're completely probably different if you see how the practices go. I would imagine I a hundred percent let him do his thing. I a hundred percent did my thing. We both have respect for those. There were times where we brought people together and did things together when it made sense. I learned a ton from Herbie. I'd like to think he learned some things from me because I know that he changed some things based on the kind of the things I was doing. So it's like we were open to it because number one, we had a common ground of science. We could understand that. I think people could understand that better. And once you do that, you can say, oh, this is why Herbie believes this, this is why I believe this. He doesn't have to do it my way, I don't have to do it his way, but we can work together for the betterment of these athletes. And we did a lot of, I thought, creative things at ASU with athletes that really helped them over the long term um progress because we were both open to it. You know, he was pushing me about wearing the suits all the time. Of course I didn't want to do it. And once I started doing it, I don't stop. Now in Texas, that's all that's what we do. You know, because I see the value in it. I see the value in it. Um, so it I think if if some of the probably the older ones like me, the more entrenched ones, could just be a little more open, we'd all do better. Or we'd find out what works and what doesn't.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, you say older ones, but I I think I was probably more entrenched when I was 25 years old. I thought I was the smartest coach in the whole world. And if everybody else would just listen to what I had to say, you know, the genius would be revealed, right? And they would they would be successful. And I I think I got in some horrible, I don't want to say like horrible arguments, but I just needlessly picked fights with people, you know, which which the basis of which were I'm right and you're definitely wrong. And uh I think it goes back to what you were saying at the beginning. It's you can get so narrowly focused that you're actually hindering your own growth. Right? If you if you as a coach are just going like, well, this is the only way to make swimmers better, and I already know it, well, where do you go from there? Like you can't you can't improve from that point. Yep. Exactly. Not at all. Um in in terms of a college program, right? You're you're directing uh I mean America's premier collegiate program, I think it's safe to say. What in the in the Context of what's going on right now. I one of the questions I get because I talk with people, you know, I've talked with club coaches, I've talked to people abroad, talk in all these different contexts. What do you think colleges can do? Because obviously your mission, your primary mission is University of Texas, NCAA swimming. I think you have always prioritized some international stuff as well. Sure. You've always made time for that. But in terms of maybe even within the US ecosystem, like not looking up to international swimming, but looking down, what do you think a collegiate program can do to sort of influence what's going on?
SPEAKER_00Um well I think for sure you can influence your community, right? You know, through the grassroots programs for providing services and camps and all other kinds of things that we do. Uh and I think that's a big part of what we do. I I think we can be one of the things, one of the reasons I went to ASU from uh Baltimore, the my second stint in Baltimore, was um I had I had really enjoyed my time at Michigan. I didn't know one thing about what I was doing and just did really not a great job. But you know, I loved every part of that. And by the end, we kind of figured it out a little bit. Um, but I did feel like I I wanted to feel more like a teacher, and like I was only coaching the pros in Baltimore, and it's just like you're just managing things. You know what I mean? Like there are they have their paths, and I was it was like a literally a pro team. I'm not that involved, and I was guiding them, but not the way that we get to do in college because it's a holistics experience. They live here, we see them all the time. I'm involved in their academic, trying to monitor their academic pursuits and being part of that and help guide them through some things and write letters for law school and doing all of those things. I and that's I love those parts about this because this is the last time that these young people are really going to get influenced before they go out in the world, right? I mean, have a pretty good opportunity to do that. So for me, I I think that's what we need to do a great job of is trying to maintain the educational part of this as we move more and more to a pro model of the actual team. And that's a that's gonna be a tough thing. I think it's tough. Now, for the things below us, I think that we need to keep as many programs going as we can. We need to keep as many opportunities for as many swimmers to swim in college, right? It used to, and I think there are gonna be scholarship opportunities, you know, maybe not as many, I don't know, maybe more in some cases. Um, but I do think that's a big driver of age group swimming, and so we need to keep maintaining that as something that's very desirable for people to do to get that experience.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh and the last question as far as the the broad landscape of college swimming. I'm gonna be at the College Swim Coaches Association annual meeting in a couple weeks. Uh, I'm leading a couple panels there, including one, we got the D2 Coach of the Year uh coming on. And, you know, I was talking with him yesterday, and I think one of the things that's interesting to me is um, and again, I I I think I told you beforehand, I don't want to do what everybody else is doing. So, like I we're we're not gonna discuss any sets on here because one of the things that drives me crazy is like people want to know that stuff, but then they're like, okay, Bob Bowman talked about this set on the podcast, like I'm gonna do it with my eight-year-olds tomorrow. And I'm like, 100%, right? Exactly. I want to tear my hair out. Okay, okay, we're in agreement on that piece of it. But right, I'm talking to this guy, he's got you know, he's got two assistant coaches, he's he's losing one because you know, it just doesn't pay very well to be an assistant at a Division II school, even the best one, you know, the national champions in the country. It's it is a a very different environment in terms of the resources that they have to bear. I guess from your perspective, when you have less resources than you do at Texas, what do you think uh you would advise those coaches uh to take from what you're doing? Right? Obviously, they can't copy everything. What what do you think they they could take from from the what you're conducting at Texas?
SPEAKER_00I think they could easily take the attitude that we have, the what the the standard, you know, the way that we set up our standards, the way that we um communicate with the team and the way it's done. Like our team is like, um somebody asked me what it was like going to Texas from ASU, and I was like, well, basically, it took me five years at ASU to do the things I did in one year at Texas, because they're just it happens quicker, right? And and the talent was there and all of the and Eddie, you know, the all of this stuff. Um but I think that they could look at the way that the team is run culturally, which is really through the captains, right? They there's it's a self-led team. I don't tell them what to do. I mean, I suggest where we want to go, and then I talk with the captains about things, and there are issues clearly I have to get involved in, right? That they can't solve, you know, or that are kind of outside the normal range. But in general, uh the team, I hate to use this word, but like polices itself, right? It kind of self-determines where it's going to go. It has its own standards and it holds these guys accountable. I think anybody can do that, regardless of your circumstance, right? You can have the right approach to the work, regardless of what kind of pool you're in or whether you have power towers or not. You know, you can do all those. We have a ton, I do use them, but uh, you know, I don't think that's the difference maker. It's just kind of like an accessory. But I do think those are the things that you could look at what we're doing here, and you can look at how we're kind of going about our season. And um, you know, it's it I I'm involved in that and it's worked twice now, and I think I'm gonna kind of keep doing it. I won't do it exactly the same, but we swim faster during the early season than most people. And we swim faster almost all the time because we're closer to the speed, but that doesn't mean we're not training in between. It does mean we're wearing suits at every meet, right? Um, and uh at the end we don't drop as much, but as long as we hang on there with the points, I don't care how many drops the other teams have, as long as we drop enough to get the job done, right? So I and I'm experimenting with it. I we experiment with the ASU, we're doing it here. So I think they could look at those kind of things. You could definitely look at season planning and those sort of things.
SPEAKER_02Let me ask you a question about that planning, because I do think this is um, you know, thematically, you you talked about something that's I think everybody who watches college swimming, they notice that just the level of swimming at any meet is just a lot closer to peak than it than it used to be. Right. But I my observation from the outside looking in is sometimes I wonder, is training being compromised, right? To swim fast in a dual meet in January. How do you make sure essentially that you're prioritizing enough training, not only, I mean, from your perspective, not only to make sure that they swim well at the NCA championships, but I know that with a lot of these athletes, you're thinking about the summer. You're thinking about long course swimming, you're thinking about international championships. So, like you cannot, you know, sort of over compromise a training cycle in the middle of winter and swim fast in the summer. How do you approach that?
SPEAKER_00That's wow, another great question. Uh well, one of the things we do is we train long course Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday pretty much all year. You know, when we get around SECs, we didn't do, you know, we went a couple weeks of short to going into that. So we're we're sort of in contact with that all the time. And I think one of the things that our guys have gotten good at since through this year is that we're doing the normal training pretty much all the time, but we're just not taking it to the like the I don't go out of my way to make sure they're dead the day before the dual meeting. Right. Do you know what I mean? I don't come in the morning. Yeah, I don't come in the morning before the dual meeting go 8,000. I just like do a warm-up, you know? So you can you're not giving up too much if the day before you go 5,000 instead of seven, and then the next morning you just kind of come and warm up and swim, and then they put a suit on, and our guys go fast in suits. Um I still am kind of marveled at how they put on this jammer and it just makes such a big difference. But you know, we swam yesterday in practice, um they and we've been going very hard because I feel like the summer short, right? The trials are early, and right after NCs, we kind of got back into it, and we have been going very, very hard. Like Monday, a group did 15 300s, another group did 15, 200s, kind of threshold type work, and we're we're going at it pretty strongly. Um, and then last night we had them put a suit on for the first time since NCAAs in practice, and I don't know, I wanted to do something crazy. So we did like a 300, a 200, a 100, like they did one every 20 minutes, like we did in heats, right? Of your stroke. And um, we have people going IMs, 300 IM, 200 IM, 100 IM. And Shane, you know, workhorse of the century, right? Cassis, he went 242 for a 300 IM, 141.8 for a 200 IM. These are all from a push. And then he did a 100 IM. It wasn't really as good as like 47 flat. I think he had a bad backshot leg, but um still, all of these are like ridiculous, right? And this is a guy who's not work, you know, we're known for that. Um, but I think we have the system down to the point where they put on the suit, they're expecting to go fast. All of these guys are going fast, they sort of lift each other. And uh, you see that in the dual meets as well. It's just overall, it's it's better and it's more fun. You know, everybody's fired up, they're ready to go back to work the next day. A lot of it's psychological. I just feel like we used to put ourselves in this point where you weren't doing it right unless everybody was miserable, their shoulders could barely move, and they just couldn't do anything in a meet. It's like, well, why do it? Why go to a meet? Why would I spend money to fly somewhere to a meet and just be terrible? Just stay home and practice. You know, and I believe that at NBA C, we did that as well. It's not, I just feel like if you're gonna compete, compete. If you're practicing, practice. But um, you can get better performances at the meets just by not going the extra 10 or 15% that just kills them right before. You're not giving up all the stuff that happened Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, but maybe Thursday you don't lift one day. You know, I like when Indiana came, I knew they arrived on Thursday, so they weren't lifting on Thursday, so we didn't lift on Thursday. You know, it's kind of made it even, you know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you gotta watch out for Ray Luz, you know. Exactly. You know when it comes to the captain's happening there. He'll take any advantage he can get. Um, I want to shift uh the last sort of piece of this is either the part you've been the most excited for or the part that you're dreading the most is all the personal questions. And let me let me start with a story because again, I I I've I talked about this earlier. You have this experience of being watched. And I was thinking about asking you this question, and I was like, it's just strange to me to think like that I've just been watching you and like making my little observations and extrapolating your personality. But I guess if I think back to again, you know, like the cutaway shots of you early in your career, you're with um you're with Michael, it's an Olympic Games, whatnot. Yeah, I mean you look stressed, and and I would be gosh, I would be losing my mind in that situation. So don't take that as a at a as a like like oh yeah, but I I think it was it was um it was a couple years ago at NCAA's, so before you won at ASU, and I'm watching the live stream of the NCAA meet, and they do like a cutaway to you, and you look like you're having the time of your frickin' life at the meet. Yeah, and I'm like, well, this is a little bit different. Do you do you feel that too? Like, uh is that is that maybe has that been an accurate sort of evolution of the way you're experiencing being at at swimming?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I um I I just think back like particularly in the Michael era, it was like it was too big to fail, right? It had to go. You know, it had it wasn't just Michael, it was USA swimming, it was the world. You know, I just and I took on a lot of that. Um probably could have handled that better, but no, I love these meets. I love being with our guys at the meets, and the one you're probably talking about was it Georgia Tech when I was at ASU?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it was the year you won, like you got second.
SPEAKER_00No, it was the year before you were. I told people all the time, they're at like, what was it like? I'm like, you know, we we had COVID and we had had an amazing Pac-12 meet, and then it got shut down like a week later, right? We were done. And then we registered a year. And then that next year, we had a really good season, and we went to Georgia Tech and got six, and we thought we won. Oh my god, that's the happiest I've ever been. I was like, we're six, right? And we just had such a good time because nobody expected us to do anything. We did really well. We weren't like contending for the title, so it wasn't a lot of stress there. It was just like we were just having fun. So that was that me. And then the next year we got we're like, well, let's see if we can do a little better. And we got what I had no idea that we could even think about winning, but we got second. And then the next year, when we really thought we could win, it kind of became more stressful. You know, it's like, you know, Michael's first Olympics was my favorite because I had no pressure and he just got fifth and we were happy to be there and all that stuff. And then after you're supposed to win these gold medals, it starts to become a lot more like work. But uh I just think that as I've gotten older and I have better perspective on it, and I have you know, uh thought many times about maybe I should do something else, maybe I should, you know, stop. I, you know, thanks to Michael, I'm relatively independent. You know, I don't have to have a job. Thank you. Um, but I I want to have a job, and I'd and I'm a worker, and and the thing that I love the most is just helping the practice the thing I love the most are the practices, but the meats are kind of where the guys get, you know, do their thing. So I I I like that now too. And I've tried to just kind of learn to cherish those things. They're there don't happen all the time, you know. I it's like I'm lucky to be here. I'm lucky to I was lucky to be at ASU, I'm lucky to be here, and um, I think that's a big part of it. And I love the people I'm doing it with. I one of the decisions I have made was um, and you learn this over time, and you can't always get it right, but I only want people on the staff that I really want to be around. You know, yeah, I don't have staff conflicts. My we're all on the same page. I love hanging out with those guys. I love hanging out with Carol. Um, and so for me, it's fun to go to work all the time, and that's a big part of it as well.
SPEAKER_02I think, yeah, incredibly underrated. I mean, um, you know, uh as coaches too, I was just thinking of as you were talking about that, sometimes one of the hardest things is, you know, we're constantly chasing a higher and higher level, much like athletes, right? We're chasing a higher and higher level of accomplishment. And I think probably one of the biggest lies people tend to tell themselves is like, oh, I'll be happy when I get to this higher level, right? Of accomplishment. But also the the the sort of other pitfall of that is okay, you you coach somebody to eight gold medals, like where do you go? You have to coach nine gold medals now? Like, what's the next rung? You know what I mean? And it does everything it could it it's I guess it's possible in that situation that everything else could feel like a step back, like this is not you know quite the same level, but I don't get the sense that you feel that way.
SPEAKER_00No, I don't feel like it's a step back. I think it's just different. It's actually, I think that's what's allowed me to have more fun. I you know, it's it was very similar to why I feel like and I felt like when I took the job at Texas, um I was kind of ideally suited for it because I'm not trying to live up to Eddie's standard. I mean, I'll never, you know, 15 championships. I don't think I'm gonna be around that long. I don't know. But like I'm very happy with my career the way it is, and I got nothing to lose by coming here and trying to just continue the legacy of excellence at Texas. Whereas I think some young and unproven people would have to live up to that. It would be very hard for them to make that transition from Eddie. Um, and Eddie made it easy for me too. He's such a wonderful person, but I so I I feel like I don't think about it in those terms anymore. I think it's like I have this thing that I'm pretty good at doing, helping people do. And I want to help these athletes go as far as they can go and have these experiences and be part of it. And for me now, it's like I don't feel I mean, you feel pressure because you want them to do well, right? You know, there was pressure in Paris. You got this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for this kid to win some gold medals at home. That's kind of exciting for me and unique, and I love France, so we got to spend a little time there. But um, I look for things like that, and that's what uh motivates me. It's uh it I think it's almost freeing to have done that before, and now it's not out there, you know, looming in the the distance.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I hear it. Yeah, you can actually let go, and like it's like almost it sounds so ridiculous to chase, you know. Like I said, like when I said nine gold medals, like you you're laughing because it's like you just gotta let go with that. That's at a certain point, it's okay. Well, that's what happened.
SPEAKER_00It's what happened between 2009 and uh 12. Like it after 2012, I took a year off for the most part. I took off till May, and I wasn't planning to come back. I was like, this is it, because I was so miserable after because we had done all of this and I couldn't come up with a goal that was like, I mean, what am I supposed to do? You know, and Michael was still swimming, right? And and I he we both knew, and we neither one of us could say, well, this is ridiculous, you'll never win eight gold medals again. So we're just like, well, maybe you could do 100 free, or you know, we just kind of kept coming up with these things that were much less satisfying, and it took a long time to kind of work through that. Um, and then once I took that time off and kind of reset, and you know, Chase and Allison asked me to come back and do an altitude camp, and I had a lot of fun and started getting it, just kind of started the second part of my career after that. Um, so yeah, it's just a personal journey and try to learn more about yourself. And uh I feel very fortunate to be doing what I'm doing, and I love it. Um, and I think that hopefully that shows.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it does. Um let me ask you this. In terms of like you're the most well-known swim coach in the world. I I've joked on this podcast many times that there's no such thing. I know, I know you have to be humble, but um you have joked many times on this podcast, like there's no such thing as a big time swim coach, but I think you have like the one name where I might have a chance talking to some random person outside of the swimming community of them being like, oh, I know who that is, right? And part of what I've referenced here too is talking about the the tiny community that swimming is, and again, there's experience that we've all had, we've all had, of observing you. You must run into people who like make some assumptions about you, and you go like, where is that coming from? That's not who I am at all. Yeah, what do you think is something that maybe you know, so your your average swimming fan or coach assumes about you that's just wrong?
SPEAKER_00Um, they probably assume that just winning is the only thing I care about. That would be my assumption. You know, that that I'm just driven from the competitive like monster. And that's and that's it. And and it's I I am competitive, but that is not really the case. I'm concerned with helping these athletes go as far as they can go under the pressure that they're gonna face in these unique environments. And it's really all about them. You know, I I I I have this kind of thing. I think when I'm at the pool, I look really stern. I'm not like super smiley all the time. I mean, you know, I just I'll my normal default is kind of like almost frowning. I think people think I'm just always, and half the time I'm just thinking about, wow, what's for dinner tonight or something. You know, you know, I mean, I'm just like, I don't know. I I I'm not nearly probably as intense as people think, certainly not in swim beats. I try not to be with the kids. Um, so so I think they probably also think I'm humorless, and I do think sometimes I can I can be kind of funny. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02I try I've been I've been accused of being I'm I don't think we're humorless on this conversation, but I've been accused of being humorous in my life too, and it's it is that. You know, like just if you stand for too long with like a blank expression on your face, people do not have to be able to do that. Exactly. Yeah. They're like, wow, like yeah.
SPEAKER_00It'd be like, you know, I I there's a person who shall remain nameless who'll come see me, and every time I see them, they'll say, smile. And I'll be like, I won't say what I think to myself, but I was like, okay, no. You know, exactly. That's that's like when you get to the meet. This is my favorite one. You're at a meet, the backstrokers are up, and they say, Come down. And inevitably, some coach from the sideline screams, Relax! I know. I'm like, okay. Yeah. Nothing makes you want to relax than having somebody scream, relax at you, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Telling telling people who are anxious to relax, telling people who are sad basically to cheer up or smile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And telling people who are really distracted, just focus. Those are my things that I'm going to do. Yeah, just focus in. Exactly. Exactly. On the list. Um, let me ask you this. I want to mirror some of the conversation that we had in the beginning. You talked about you know, some of the athletes that you're coaching, and like, you know, they're they're in the lacrum, they're they're telling Chase, like, oh gosh, he put all about us today. Let's let's let's turn it in reverse. If you look back um on your coaching career, how is it how is the way that you've received critiques changed? You know, um, what was it like when you were when you were getting started and and how is it different now?
SPEAKER_00When I was getting started, I didn't take it very well, right? Because this is about your ego, right? Um and I didn't also know how to sort of filter feedback. Um I read this book, Power of Now, right? Eckhart Tolle. Kind of changed my life. I've I've read it five or six times or listened to it. I kind of read and listen. But um, so it I'm trying to uh think about my life differently. I'm trying to live in the present moment, right? I'm not trying to be stressed out about what's coming up or sad about what just happened, or you know, whatever that you know, live in the past too much. Uh so that's a big part of it. I think I'm better at handling things that come my way. But the other thing is feedback is important. And I used to get really upset at any feedback because it made me feel like I wasn't doing my job or I wasn't trying, or they were accusing me of not trying hard. And that was my thing. I try harder than anybody else. That was my sort of my nobody will outwork me ever, right? So I had a hard time with that. Um, and now I live in this world where a lot of people critique me, you know, online and whatnot. I get to see all kinds of things.
SPEAKER_02I've never heard of I've never heard of anybody doing that.
SPEAKER_00No, no one would ever, ever do that. But then I just think to myself, is the person giving the feedback credible? And I'm pretty sure that these guys that don't put their name online in the swim-swam comment section and just take shots at me probably haven't coached too many Olympic gold medalists and probably aren't even coaching today, and probably have never ever been in my shoes. So that feedback is not credible. If um, you know, Eddie Reese gives me some feedback, I'm taking that as credible because he knows he's been there, done that, and cares about me, right? And that's what I like to do with the kids as well. Like it, I care about you, that's why you're getting this feedback, and you know that I'm credible because I have some kind of track record. So you should probably take this to heart. This isn't something one of your friends just said, hey, why don't you try this in the pool and see what happens, right? This is me saying, you need to change this, and this is why, and you know that I care about you, and that's it. So I think I've gotten much better at kind of ignoring things that aren't from credible sources and uh really taking to heart the the ones that are from credible sources. Does that make sense? Totally.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I I love what you say about uh there's been a couple themes that you you have sort of commented on, I guess, online culture. And I mean I've always believed um, I've certainly been a person who's shared my opinion about many, many things, but I always put my name to it because I think there's a certain account to it, right? Exactly, right? Yeah. If I say something, I have to go out and occasionally run into people that I've said something about. Um, you know, I had Greg Meehan on the podcast in the fall. Like I had said some things um that were critical, and I've maybe learned to temper that back a little bit as I've got a little bit because I create needless, I create needless conflict. But I think the the second thing that you're referencing is took me a long time to realize that part of the reason I was offering my opinion on things came from a position of caring. It wasn't like I just I didn't want to just tell somebody else like, hey, you're you're wrong. I was like, yeah, no, like, you know, you should be doing X, Y, and Z, whatever. You know, I was passionate about things, yeah, and I was passionate about the people um even that uh I was uh criticizing on the other end. Last question of I've often uh you know believed that coach athlete relationships give you opportunities to address things with yourself that you otherwise not. And I think you've referenced that quite a bit over the course of this um podcast. But I wonder if I could get you to do one more just like an example of a time when a relationship with an athlete, you just you you know something happened and then you felt like wow, that really spurred personal growth in me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um wow, so many. So many, I can't think of one. No. Uh you know, I um I won't use Allison again. There are a couple good ones with her, but you know, I have um, I think there have been a couple times, and I'm not gonna mention any names, but there have definitely been a couple times in my career where very talented athletes came to me, and they weren't known yet. This is back in my Adrian day, like my North Baltimore days. Like Michael was good, but like a couple really great athletes came in, and I was like, wow, this dude can be a world record holder. It's like 14, 13, right? I'm like, for sure. You see it again, like the same. You just see it, yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm like, my gosh, I can't even believe it. It's right, it's right here. And I wanted it way more than they did. They didn't have an understanding of what I wanted to do. Whereas when I got Michael, he was like a machine already, man. He was ready to go. He he wanted it more than me for sure, always. Um, and I I just made so many mistakes, and and they, and there were two times this happened, and both of them ended up playing lacrosse instead of swimming because I was putting too much pressure on them to be the next thing because they could, right? And it's like now when I see people like that, I'm just like, where do you want to go with this? How far do you think you could go? You know, you know what I mean? Like, and I think that has had a profound impact to me that they need to guide this process, not me, right? So that's a lot about the hammer thing. The hammer thing is about me doing everything. Me telling them everything to do, and me being the motivation and the energy and all of that. Uh, and now they are that, and I'm just a right, I'm with them. I'm here, I'm right beside you. You tell me where you want to go, and I'm doing the hammering and I'll yeah, I'll yeah, I'll tell you what you need to do to go where you say you want to go, and then I can help hold you accountable. And if you want me to, I'll definitely do that. And if you don't, you probably won't be in the program because that's what I do. I kind of help you go where you want to go. Um, so I think that's probably the one of the good examples of that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, plus it's Maryland, right? So um, you know, lacrosse.
SPEAKER_00Lacrosse is everywhere. They yeah, it was a natural. It's like way fun and not all these laps, and yeah, this guy yelling at me about what I should be doing.
SPEAKER_02Practice three or four times a week, you know.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Completely different atmosphere. Well, um, this is gonna be, I I guarantee, my most listened to podcast. So I just want to say thank you to you for being willing to come on it because um I think that it's gonna draw a lot of attention, not only to this, the conversation we've had here, which has been wonderful, but uh some of the other things that I do as well. I want to thank everybody at home for listening. If you want to get in contact with me, uh swimbriefpodcast at gmail.com, you can go to my website, my recently redesigned, beautiful new website, ChrisDcoach.com. Fill out a contact form, or you can go on Instagram where I'm kind of available, although I don't love social media, in case you can't tell by my conversation with Bob. Chris D underscore coach. Bob, you have any uh I mean, do you want to plug anything? Do you want to send people to any social media pages or at coach underscore Bowman?
SPEAKER_00I'm on uh X and Instagram. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And if you see Bob at a swimming, don't assume because he's don't assume I'm angry.
SPEAKER_00I'm probably having a good time just inside.
SPEAKER_02It's just it's just internally joyful, not exactly externally joyful. Exactly. Um thank you once again. Thank you everybody for listening, and I'll be back again with you guys next week.