Attention, all followers, I will be at the twenty twenty five CSCAA annual meeting. I will be presenting and I'm also moderating a panel. So if you're planning to attend, shoot me a DM or a comment to let me know that you're gonna be there too. Guys, the lifeblood of what I do here is meeting people who are thinking about coaching, psychology, and how to improve the culture of our sport in real life. So let me hear from you, and I want to see you in Raleigh next month. I am Chris DeSantis, and today, in my continuing quest to interview every collegiate swim coach with the name Dave. I got I've got Dave Dennison, I got Dave Rollins, I want to welcome to the podcast David Dow from the College of New Jersey. David, how are you? Good. Thanks for having me, Chris. Excited to me. You are a David, right? You're like, you're not a Dave. Do people call you Dave?
SPEAKER_02No, I am more, I'm more of a Dave than I am a David.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. So you're working with you this whole time, and I've been very formally calling you David. That's okay. That's okay. Embarrassing. Embarrassing way to start. I'm pretty flexible with it. So it's uh it's no worries at all. But I think this is you're right. Well, I mean, you would agree, like this is a bridge. Now I've got Dow on is Durden next? Marsh?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you're on a roll.
SPEAKER_00We need to get all the Dave's on one podcast. That's the next step. Yeah. Swim brief. That's a natural progression in what we're doing.
SPEAKER_02Uh dir Durden would probably be the next one from like an alphabetical standpoint, right? Um especially if you're working through that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's right. Yeah. D, we've got the Dave D's. Um all right, let me ask you this to just to get started, because I think, you know, probably some of the people listening to this, they know who you are or they know something about the College of New Jersey. But um, you know, I always want to sort of set up who I'm talking to on this. So if you could give the audience listening to this like a five-minute version of how did you come to be the head men's swimming and diving coach at the College of New Jersey? How do you end up where you are?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I grew up in uh Glassdenbury, Connecticut, so Central Connecticut. Um, and then um swam there under Bill Ball and Snowco swimming, which was the club team at the time. Uh, and then looking at colleges, uh I really wanted sport management at that time. There were zero programs in Connecticut, so I was gonna be an out-of-state student somewhere. Um, and just through the process, ended up at SUNY Cortland, which was a great fit for me, um, both academically and athletically, um, had an amazing four years there, um, swam under Brian Tobin, um, and then was fortunate enough to get invited back um as a grad assistant after I was done with my undergrad. So that's kind of how I got everything kicked off with my coaching career, um, was there for two years. Then I jumped right into at the at the age of 23, uh, my first head coaching job, which was at Bethany College uh in West Virginia. Um so uh a smaller Division III private school. Um it had 700 students on campus. And I believe when I got there, we had five women and two men to start um, not start the program there, it was already there, but to start my time there. Um I was two two men. Two men. One had never swam competitively before. Um so it was an experience.
SPEAKER_00So I just part of the story.
SPEAKER_02Probably not. So I was I was there for four years as a head coach, um, made a lot of mistakes, but was able to fall up for the most part, right? Um we got to the point where we had about 12 to 15 on each side my last year there. Um, so built it up to about 25, 30 total swimmers. Um, pretty much broke every record that could have been broken. Um, and then we were able to move up about halfway up our conference. I think the women went from um maybe 11th to sixth during their time there out of 11 teams, and the men, I think we had eight or nine teams, um, and we were probably sixth or seventh my last year there as well. So um awesome experience there. Like the place was fantastic, the people I got to work with were great. Um, but also knew I still had a lot to learn as kind of a first-time head coach that had only really known Cortland from a uh a collegiate coaching standpoint. Um so then was really fortunate to get um the assistant coaching job at Williams College under Steve Custer, who was amazing. Um and then for people don't that don't know, uh like Williams is the top liberal arts college in the country. Uh all three years I was there, the women were top three at NCAAs, the men were top ten, uh, multiple national record holders and and national champions. And um, Steve himself is a four-time D3 coach of the year. So couldn't have asked to learn under a better mentor there. Um, and then really, you know, I knew that the next step was kind of uh gonna be going back to a head coach. Um and I found out Brian Bishop was retiring at TCNJ, and you know, there's not much of a better place that you could end up than here, in the sense of uh, you know, Cortland was a public institution in New York, TCNJ is a public institution in New Jersey. My wife is uh a public educator. Um I came from a very blue-collar family, so like the value here just screams like it's the top top public college in the Northeast. Um the being at kind of a top college that also had this amazing value to it in terms of the educational opportunity really screamed at me. And the program has a ton of history under Coach Bishop. Um, you know, multiple top 10 finishes. He had eight individual or relay titles while we were see while he was here. Um exciting opportunity um to apply, and and the rest is kind of history. Um it was just kind of a no-brainer for me, and and it felt like a very natural fit from the get-go. And uh it's been a great seven years here since then.
SPEAKER_00I want to ask you a little bit more uh about you know, sort of the character of TCNJ in a second. You you got to I think like the broad strokes of it. Um and I think that's also what attracted me to doing something. Um I guess I buried the lead. Uh we've been working together this past year, we've been doing a a project with your coaches um and yourself. And um but I I had a question listening to that whole history. If we go back to Bethany, this is something that really interests me, right? So you as you say, you start with five women, two men, you get up to twelve or fifteen on each roster. Like when you're recruiting now at TCNJ, it's it's a known quantity. Like there are there are kids every year that send in information because they're like, I want to be a college swimmer, and TCNJ is a place that I'm considering going. I have to imagine that at the point where you have two male swimmers on Bethany, there are not people who are just passively like going like, oh, I would love to swim at Bethany College. They don't even know it exists. Like, how do you start recruiting from no interest?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I don't think a lot of people do that.
SPEAKER_02Um, man, that's that's a great question. Uh it's I think at that point, right? You're you're basically selling it as a brand new program in a lot of ways, um, where it's it's you're selling the college itself and then the vision for the program more than anything that we're doing at that time. Um, in and just trying to kind of build that up over you over the years as you get some traction. And um certainly it wasn't a spot where like all of a sudden I had 10 men coming in and we had 12, right? It was a slow work burn over a three or four year period of recruiting, um, where you know you're you're bringing in, I think my first recruiting year, we probably only had three or four recruits because that's how much of a challenge it was to get people excited to be there. Um, but then over time, and you're starting to build something, you get more and more traction. And then especially as you start moving up a spot or two in your conference and start breaking some school records, that really led itself like the best recruiting class I had at Bethany was the one I never got to coach as I was leaving for Williams. Um, but like every year I was there, we were getting more and more traction to just build this program there. Um, but yeah, you're you're selling the college, which has still had a lot to offer, and like the vision that you have for the program and where you're trying to take it, and and ultimately, right? Like you're at that level, like you're just trying to get high schoolers to make the decision to swim in college and that this will be a good fit for them uh holistically and and give it give it a go and see what can happen.
SPEAKER_00I mean, but even down to like the the the nuts and bolts of it, like were you going to high school swim meets and talking to high school swim coaches and talking to local club coaches and just being like, do you have anybody that you know yeah?
SPEAKER_02Um pretty much if if you had like high school swimming experience and you wanted to swim in college uh and and you seem like a good character fit in terms of like you're gonna work hard, be a good teammate, do the things that we're looking for, it was uh yes from me, right? Like I wasn't I wasn't worried about going out and finding a finalist in our conference. It was more of just let's build some numbers, um, let's coach some kids up, and then and then we'll get some traction around that, which is exactly kind of how we need to happen.
SPEAKER_00So let's bring it back to TCNJ, because I I hinted at that earlier. And again, one of the things that attracted me, I mean, uh uh people who've been listening to this podcast for a long time know that um essentially I had Joel Rawlings for a long period of time as a co-host. Joel uh had the experience of of coaching at University of Wisconsin Whitewater, and one of the things he's taught to me a lot is you know, that there's almost seems to be a ceiling in Division III for public schools. But between the two of us, and I asked him about this after I started working with TCNJ, we were like, has any public school finished higher at the NCA level than TCNJ? And I I want to keep putting this out on the podcast because if it's happened, please educate me so I don't keep saying that. But as far as I know, TCNJ is like the high watermark for public schools in Division III. And I think the reason I bring that up is sort of the intro into you know talking a little bit more about it because it's just it is a fact that it's a place with a lot of history and a lot of tradition. That's not just like something incidental that happened, just you know, there's something uh natural about a sm a liberal arts college in New Jersey that you know makes it super successful in the sport of swimming. That's something that has been nurtured. There's been a lot of people involved in it over the years. And I wonder if you could just sort of in your you've been there for seven, so you've been there a little bit, right? Obviously, there was a lot that happened before that, but if you could just speak to a little bit, I guess, why you think TCNJ has been so successful over the years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I think the uh there's probably like two or three different things that really factor in. Um I think first and foremost, it is a great academic institution, right? So we are um, you know, ranked at in terms of U.S. news as the number one public college in the Northeast. So um I think especially in terms of public institutions, that gives us an edge over um quite a few of our competitors and everything. And you know, this year as a regional university as well, uh, and it was the first time since I've been here that we've had this ranking. We're even just the number one college in the Northeast in terms of regional universities, not national, but regional. And I think a lot of the schools that we're competing against academically are $70,000 and $80,000 a year, right? Where in-state tuition and room and board, like, but the total net price here is usually in the mid-30s. So, you know, I think one of the huge differences is we're just typically competing against schools that are twice as expensive off the bat. And so I think that's that's a huge part is the affordability and how good the education is here. Um, and then I think from a swimming standpoint, I think we're like very uniquely positioned in terms of um both the history of the TCNJ men's program um and just TCNJ in general. That um so the men's program actually started here when the the pool was built. Um so our current pool was built in, I believe, '87. Um there was a varsity program. So Brian Bishop, who was the coach before me, um, came here as Justin Aquatics Director. Um they asked him to be the club coach for a year or two. Um, and then after that period, they went varsity, and I believe 8990 was their first official season in terms of varsity. And they've got this amazing facility here, um, you know, especially at the time, right? Eight lane 25 yards, separate diving well, um, probably, you know, probably still one of the top three or four pools in New Jersey that you can swim at, period. Um, and it's just it's just an awesome facility to have here. So I think that really sparked the growth of the program, um, which kind of interesting after we just talked about Bethany, right? Where he's truly just starting a program on a vision in a facility and the educational opportunities here. Um and he did an amazing job during his time of of quickly accelerating that program. Um, you know, they won their first conference championship within like year four, year five of him being the head coach and them going varsity here. And at that time, it was the Met Conference and they're beating mid-major division one programs on top of some division three to make that happen. Um and then I think the other piece that um really works for us is is kind of the you know the tradition, the history, um, the education, but also um, if I'm being honest, we we don't have a lot of competition in New Jersey, right? So from a public institution standpoint, um, the only power for school um in the state is Ruckers, who uh does not uh have men's swimming. They don't have a men's swimming program there. Um and then I, you know, we're we're competing with most of the mid-major D1 programs in New Jersey in terms of our current competition level. So um, you know, I think when you're an in-state New Jersey swimmer, um, you know, and if you're not gonna be at a power four top 25, top 30 division one program, um, you know, if if if you don't have the academics to look at Princeton, this is this is like really one of the best opportunities when it comes to academics affordability, um, and especially being able to compete on a national level, um, you know, for Division III and getting to the national meet and everything. So I think there's just a lot of highlights for the student athletes that are looking here and what we have to offer. Uh, and then I always kind of go back to, you know, I think there is something unique about public schools in Division III, where like the culture is just a little bit different with the kids that are generally looking here. Um, you know, I think that most of our kids are coming from like a very middle-class blue-collar family. And like the kids that we have here are just like, they work for everything they've gotten. And that and that's not to say that it hasn't been the case other places I've been, but it's like every single member of our team is like in it and together and like expecting to come and work hard every single day. Uh, and it makes the culture here like really special, um, I think compared to other places that I've been.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I I I think, you know, especially like I I went to Colby College, and one of the things that I reflect, that's in the NESCAC with Williams, getting their butt kicked by Williams on a yearly basis. Um, so I I think one of the first things I told you about was how jealous I was of Steve Custer every time I saw him giving a big hug to somebody after they, you know, like broke the uh league record and this, that, or the other thing, and you know, I'm like over on the seventh place team. I had a lot of jealousy in those days. But I if I reflect back on on Colby College and um uh I I this is no shade against my alma mater, but I just have a hard time when I now like I look at the the way the cost has ballooned. Like it it costs ninety thousand, and it's not so much that you know it's not so much that cost in isolation, it's just like again when I hear you say if I'm in New Jersey, I can go to TCNJ for the mid-30s. Do I really think that going to Colby is three times am I gonna get three times the value basically in doing that? And it it it just thinks like in in the positive sense, I don't think the answer to that is yes, and that's because that there's because there's a lot of value to TCNJ, right? And you know, uh as somebody who looks like I have an 11-year-old and I'm starting to like think, oh my gosh, like it's closer than I realized, you know, that I'm gonna have to be paying for some of this stuff. That makes me um certainly pretty interested. I wanna I wanna switch base and talk about some of the stuff that we've been working on this year. Um because yeah, it's been a really positive experience. It's been uh something new uh for me, something that I've spent a lot of time sort of building up to. Um and I think probably what I enjoy about any project is not necessarily the delivery of what I know, but like I learn a lot from doing these. And so um we've had a lot of conversations that I think I've gotten a lot out of, and I want to translate a few of those to the audience. Um one of them has been basically around the lines of long-term team culture building. And one of the conversations we've had that I I guess I want to see if I can get you to speak to is what kind of what kind of thought do you put into making decisions as a leader of a program that sort of properly weight these sort of long-term cultural decisions with the immediacy of like, we got a dual meet next weekend against Johns Hopkins or whatever, and like we want to beat him, right? Like these these urgent sort of comp competitive impulses. How do you how do you balance those?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think um that's that's really shifted a lot even since we've started working with each other in the last year or two. Um, and a little reflective of the team we currently have right now is um, you know, I think more and more I'm shifting my focus on the long term so that the short term can kind of take care of itself, right? And there's and there's always gonna be the immediacy of health or injuries or academics or like right, all the all the things that come with being a student athlete that I'm trying to help them through the immediate experience that they're living and kind of doing at that moment, right? And and trying to help them through that, um, and and trying to put our teams in the best position to be as competitive as possible. But you know, in terms of the long term, I think like a sustainable culture is huge. Um I think even since I got here, like uh I think I knew that TCNJ was somewhere that I like want to and could be for the rest of my career. Um so it's not like I had like a three to five year vision for this. It's like what do we need to do and live day in and day out so that like I can be on year 25, year 30 here and still feel like we've held on to the values that we want and have as a program. And then um, you know, I think the other piece of that is uh you know, always always looking at where we can be improving from a culture standpoint as a team, um trying to work on those things so that it can be better in a year or two. Um, and then even for the individuals, right? Um there's kind of that balance between your freshman or underclassman athlete that's still got at least two or three years left after that season, that you really want to make sure you're taking care of their long-term development, growth, whether that again be in the pool as a student, as a person, um, in really having the decisions you're making with or for them uh reflect that, as well as you know, that's that's a lot different than the seniors that's been in it for three years that you're hoping um can just go out and has probably learned a lot. And it's a little bit more of capping off, hopefully, what's been an awesome four year experience being a team member. Of the program, what they're trying to accomplish in the pool one more time and where they're at, right? So uh every individual is in a different place, and and our team from year to year is also going to look different as we have seniors graduating and freshmen coming in and things that we want to cultivate and work on. Um yeah, for us, I think the the big shift this year was kind of just taking a step back and looking at uh, you know, I think I had made some decisions over the last year or two that were a little bit more immediate in terms of how are we competing at a dual meet or at a conference level or what's our makeup of an NCAA team going to look like if I'm trying to get guys onto relays at these meets, um, you know, the highest possible finishes. And I think I've been able to stay take a step back this year and be a little bit more reflective on like, like, is this is this kid even ready for um these experiences yet? Like, not just in the pool, but like, are they emotionally and mentally prepared for the positions I'm gonna put them in? Um, and then in terms of like long-term development, it's like what like what does our team need right now? Um, and a lot of times that's not some pet talk about going and winning a meet or the immediacy of what's coming up. And it's more of like, hey, when when we're going into a meet against Johns Hopkins, right? Um, sure, we want to be as competitive as possible, but what's our presence on deck like? How are we working our way through meet preparation and the day and all the other things that kind of come with uh a big time dual meet? And do we do a great job as we leave a dual meet like that of having, again, seniors that that was their last, you know, big dual meet against a great program? Um, did they uh leave with a great experience and and feel great about the way things ended for them on that last opportunity they're gonna have? And were they able to instill some lessons into our underclassmen who is the first time they had gone against top 10 programs? And um, you know, did did we prepare them well for that moment? And then how like, you know, and if we didn't, what what can we learn and and use to help them grow for future opportunities, right? So um, yeah, you're still trying to be as competitive as possible. Um, but I I'm I think taking a much broader look at kind of how we're running things the last year, and um, you know, what what's the payoff look like in five years, six years, eight years with guys that aren't even part of our program right now, and just in terms of the way that we're teaching leadership, um, trying to mentor our younger student athletes and and working their way kind of through their four years here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's something I think about, and I mean, you know, I'm headed to CSCAA, and I know I'm gonna get into this conversation a ton of times with people, is when I look at the college landscape, and part of the reason why I frame this around competitiveness, I mean, I think you've even seen it in your coaching career, how much better people swim just like in any given dual meet. It's it has it's obvious to anyone who's been watching college swimming for a long time that just the average level of swimming, the average level of competitiveness has gone way up. Whereas in a previous era, even you know, if the sort of best performance of the year was closer to what we're seeing now, like the the other end was was way farther away. And I think that's overall been a positive development. I mean, I think from a psychological perspective, I think it's really good for athletes to have like more than one opportunity a year to perform. Like that that is can be psychologically like a really big choke point for athletes. But you know, there's like there's no I always tell myself like there's no free lunches out there, and I I can't help but wonder if you know like this sort of coalescing focus towards like how are we gonna swim well this weekend can sometimes cause people to lose sight right of this bigger stuff that's that's going in the background. To that end, I have a question for you that I think um be really interested to to hear what you have to say about this. Some of the stuff you're talking about, right? I I get the sense that you had some long-term thinking from the beginning, but uh embedded within that is some of this stuff, right, when you're trying to change it, if you if you you know, if you keep evaluating, like if you evaluate tomorrow, it'll look basically the same as it does today. So how do you how do you when you've got a really like a multi-year process going, how do you figure out whether it's working?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh luckily I've got a great coaching staff that helped me out with that, right? And talk to with development. Um I mean uh and then working with you, right? We've we've had a lot of great conversation as the years have gone on, or not years, sorry, as the year has gone on.
SPEAKER_00Um it's only felt like years, David.
SPEAKER_02It's felt like years in a good way. Throughout the season, I think that we've had some great conversations on um you know things I've been able to take and implement with the team in in you know, after a month or two months, right? What have we made progress on? What do we still need to be working on and what are the next steps? And then honestly, like I actually think um probably the biggest feedback is I I just finished up uh our individual like postseason meetings with all of our athletes about a week ago. Um there was no bigger feedback than from our own student athletes um on a like what they felt like coming into the year, how they felt like the year went, how they felt like the team culture was, um, and what they're what they're you know looking forward to next year, what we can still be working as a team. So um no one is experiencing it like the 34 guys that actually went out and did it this year, right? So that's that's crucial and vital feedback for me on here here are the things that we tried to implement that um you know guys really appreciate and that were really different this year that got us to a place our team hadn't been. Um and I think a lot of that stuff happened very late in the season where now it's like great, so now how do we take that traction and have it from the get-go with a new class coming in? Um have this you know culture that that we kind of uh improved upon this year, but we want to start it at the end of August, as soon as our incoming freshmen are here and we've got new senior class and new captains on the team, and like, how are we then taking it to the next level rather than just saying, great, so we'll do these things in December and January and be awesome. It's like, no, we want to build that base at the beginning of the year now, um, and then we'll see what we can kind of improve upon as the year goes on. So um, but yeah, I don't think the biggest feedback comes from our own swimmers uh and divers, and and I think that piece has been huge to me, knowing like we made some really positive changes this year from what I've been hearing from our guys in these meetings. Um, but also like I think everyone knows that we've got a long ways we can continue to like strengthen things and and make things even better.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. I mean, one of the things I and and you were doing, I mean, I uh am I right in saying you had meetings basically with every guy on the team three times throughout the course of the like so like a basically an early season, preseason, mid-season, end of season. Right. One-to-one at least. At a minimum, right? I'm sure there were many interim meetings with interim people along the way. So I guess I want to use that as sort of a pivot point because I think that one of the reasons why people pivot away. I'm using pivot twice in the same sentence, but people move away from soliciting feedback is like I can remember I didn't get along very well with my college subcoach. This is no secret to anyone who's been following for a long time. And I can remember getting those little surveys, you know, at the end, and that was like just like my moment to just unload every complaint that I had about the previous season. And I can remember then becoming a coach, right? I go to coach at Georgia Tech, they're giving out surveys to the athletes, and then I had to read, you know, anonymously what everybody had written about me at the end, and sometimes like I I just have to admit, it really hurt my feelings what people had to say. And I'm I can imagine 34 guys times three X meetings. Sometimes guys say stuff in those meetings that like elicits a strong emotional reaction from you. Um what's your basic approach for handling moments like that? Right, and like making I don't wanna even want to say it feels like crass to say like making the best out of it, but like making it work, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Uh yeah, I mean, I would still say uh so we don't do surveys here, and sometimes I kind of wish that we did, because I still think that there's times where like confrontation isn't easy, right?
SPEAKER_00Um it's valuable sometimes to get people's anonymous thoughts, even if it hurts your feelings.
SPEAKER_02And I'm sure, I'm sure there's some that walk in here and maybe they would like to say something but don't feel comfortable. Um now, I think on the flip side of that, I think everyone knows that I'm just like I'm super open to critiques and want to become a better coach. So I welcome it. Um sometimes I even push guys. I'm like, you sure? Like, you sure there's there's nothing that you want to talk about? Um and then when things do come up, um, I think less and less every year, right? Uh if you ask me early on, it's like, oh, like they didn't like the training plan or this group or what I had, and that stinks, or man, they didn't like the way I handled our interaction after this race at a championship meet, like that stinks. And um, yeah, you take it to heart. Sometimes like you get a little red in the face in the meeting, and like I've never been one to like outburst at that moment, but you're like, oh, like this is super frustrating to hear right now. But honestly, I think more and more um it is um, and and we've talked about this a little bit, like you've got to understand their perspective, meet them with empathy. Like if they're saying it, it's their reality, right? Whether or not you agree it should be, or or if it is or not. Um and then I I think especially like if it's if it's little things in one person, um, and uh if it's something like relational that I can work with on with them, then I'm always gonna make the tweak, right? And make it happen for them. If it's something where it's like my specific training or coaching and only one person wants to give me that feedback, and I don't necessarily agree that that's best, um, then at that point I'm probably gonna be like, thanks for the input, totally understand where you're coming from. Here's why we're doing what we're doing, and here's you know how it seems to be working for most. So like unfortunately, we won't make that change, right? Um, but especially if I'm getting feedback from you know multiple guys in a group, uh, you know, I don't care if it's a training group or the overall team, um, like I I want to change things. Like I want to make it to be a good experience. Um, you know, they they know a lot about the sport as well, right? So I better listen to their feedback. And um, you know, a lot of the changes that we have made over the years, whether it be culturally, uh, whether it be the way I'm trying to build relations, whether it be training, um, you know, it really does come from the feedback from the swimmers so that I can make tweaks and changes. And um, you know, I'm still I've been doing this for 15 years, but I'm still growing as a coach. Like, I'm not anywhere close to knowing everything that I'm ever going to know about this sport. Uh, if anything, I'm sure you hear this all the time, right? But the more that we know, the more questions that we have and the less that we know. Um, so yeah, I better listen to my guys and like be able to handle and take some critiques and say, like, instead of, I think for me, it's like instead of it being something where I'm fired up about, well, they don't understand or like they don't know where I'm coming from, it's like I gotta do one of two things, which is either educate them on why I do think it's important, if I'm like staunchly against making changes, or they're probably right and it's an opportunity for for me to become a better coach. Um, and I should jump on that right away and um change things. So uh every every year, I'm also a coach, like we're constantly trying new things and um, you know, molding our program and and listening to feedback. Um, and sometimes I think even just doing something different, right? Like we might not do something for a year or two, uh, and then we miss it and we bring it back, right? And then we try something different. Um but just trying to trying to create an environment where guys not only are allowed to voice their opinion and have feedback, but like that it's gonna be heard and that adjustments will be made. Um, I think it's I think it's really important to them um to make them feel like they've got a coach and a staff that like cares about them and wants to see the best for them and and is help uh progressing them forward.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, one of the most uh one of the really early influences on me that I think you're speaking to there was um when I started my coaching career, I uh did I was in college actually, and I was interning at a club program, and the guy who owned this club program was like, hey, I've got this basically this pile of Askatox, you know, printed out, because this was 2004, you know, it's still early internet days, and he was like, I want you to like edit this together into a manual for coaches. And I remember this sports psychology article, I'll never forget it. I can't find it anymore because it doesn't exist on the internet, but you can find footage of this guy talking. You have to pay to watch it. But Dr. Tom Tutko, he was a sports psychologist at a university in Southern California, I want to say Santa Barbara, something like that. And he was talking about it that he had, he's actually, you know, he had worked with all these really high-level athletes and and coaches, and he was working with I think it was like a a top-level NCAA college basketball program. And the coach came to him and was like, Hey, I have this center, like he's you know, he's seven foot, two fifty, he's physically could just dominate every game he's in, but he's passive. Like he he's very passive in in the game. And t Tutko was like, Well, let me come watch practice. He comes to practice and the coach is yelling at the guy, his teammates are yelling at him, everybody's like just berating this guy non-stop about how he's playing. And the guy is totally silent. I mean, you made a reference to this earlier, like sometimes you get re a little red in the face in the meeting, you don't have an outburst. So this is actually like a progression, right? You look you the the next step is getting beyond just internalizing that feeling, right? Because you know it's like it's not gonna help for me to yell and scream right now, right? But if you just internalize it, it'll eat you up from the inside. Like and um so I'm reading this article, and I've always thought about it in terms of the conversations you're describing having with the athletes, because essentially all they changed to get this guy to be more aggressive, to be more sort of like just in it to win it in some of these games, is they let him vocalize some of like, you know, like so somebody would yell at him and he'd be like, you know, back off, I'm doing my best. Like he just got to like on a basic level stand up for himself a little bit, speak his mind to his teammates, speak his mind to his coaches, and not have it be like this, you know, relationship destroying thing. And it was able to pull it out of his shell. And sometimes I think coaches, right, we like look at athletes and we go, wow, we want them to be more accountable, we want them to take more responsibility, we want them to, you know, like be creative and like find a way to work within the framework of what we're doing and make themselves better. And then on the flip side, it's like don't don't ever disagree with me, don't give me any feedback, and like they learn to not be accountable, to not be responsible, and and both sides are just incredibly frustrated with each other. Um and I can see that in what you're doing, and I I'm realizing I'm getting to the end of talking, so I should have a question to ask you based off of what I just said. Um I guess let me ask you this. I think we both agree that as a leader, probably the most powerful thing you can do is how you lead by example. Now, obviously, as a coach, Dave Dow, like you're not coming to practice and being like, hey guys, watch me throw down this 50-free, like, let me show you how it's done, right? That's not the leading by example that you do anymore. But in the sense of like some of this sort of uh for lack of a better term, emotional regulation, what do you think? How do you think you can lead by example as a coach?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I think one of the biggest things that I've taken away from us working together this year is like um I've I've been able to somehow, uh not somehow, it's it's what we've worked on, but I've been able to No, you you practiced it. Give yourself some credit. I've been able to um increase, uh and I've used the word already today, but I've been able to increase the number of confrontations, I'll call it, right? In terms of me uh coaching hard, right? Like me letting uh someone know that they're not meeting an expectation of some sort. Um certainly I think guys are being even more open with me about something that they don't like about whatever I'm doing, the way I'm treating a situation, how I'm practicing whatever it is. But somehow through that, like we've increased that a ton this year, uh, but there's like a low level of outbursts, heated conversations, like high-level emotional stakes that are happening. Um and I think a lot of that has come from some of the education that we've talked about and just like self-awareness on um how you're kind of like dealing with you know what gets you frustrated or like what you know, what really gets you going a little bit, the thought process behind that, and then like breaking the cycle of it and working on to something new. Um, and again, I I think just meeting them with where they're at and empathy and perspective. Um, like is someone not working as hard in practice um because they're having a rough time or a rough day? Like, I don't know that if I don't ask them right. Um, did they, you know, are they not following a breathing pattern because they just didn't hear me or look out as sheep? Um or is like, is that something that they did know about? And like I can confront them and set an expectation, but like me doing that and holding them accountable doesn't have to look like screaming or like what's wrong with you, things like that, right? Like there's there's ways that you can go about it that's going to get them more made motivated and invested in like the process, um, then kind of like losing your temper. But I, you know, I think that's the way where it's like um probably the most somehow laid back that I've ever been on deck this year, but also I feel like I'm raising the standard and expectation for our team. Like I'm probably more of a disciplinarian this year than I have been in the last three years. Um, but I'm able to do it in a way that's just like, hey, this is the standard, reminding people if they're not meeting it, and then and then we'll take action steps if there need to be action steps towards that. But yeah, um, like you just said, like me losing it on an athlete, it's not not doing anything to help them move forward other than like break the trust and bond that we're trying to create as we work forward together, right? Um, and then in that same sense, when they know that like I can I can handle confrontation as well, I do think I'm getting more and more guys that are open to like letting me in on their lives and their relationship with the sport and like just how their day-to-day is going, which is which is then informing me on like what do they need today in the moment and how can I help them like coach, uh, how can I help coach them through these situations and everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like the way you put it in terms of confrontations, because I think that is a word, you know, like people can think that it sounds a little aggressive, right? But I I I think what you're speaking to is actually a progression beyond uh a developmental stage that I know I found myself stuck at at certain points in my coaching career where I sort of like I I get into, for lack of a better term, like a passive aggressive state. So I've got stuff like maybe the athletes are not doing something to the standard that I want them to do. Something is not going the way that you know I had envisioned it or planned it, but I I internalize that right? Because I'm like, because I I know it's not appropriate for me to lash out. But then because I don't have another plan for what to do, eventually I I lose my capacity to just keep it internal. And then I have this sort of like over-the-top again, for lack of a better term, like childish reaction. I mean, like you you got a young kid at home, like k kids kids they've got their emotions right at the forefront, right? And they can go like zero to a hundred in five seconds, right? That's something we learn as an adult, is like to to to step that back a little bit, but I think it can become dysfunctional when stepping it back just means sublimating your emotions for the time instead of being like, okay, like what am I what am I gonna do next? How am I going to somehow give myself some resolution on this so I can move on and not internalize it and then allow it to accumulate on me over the course of the season?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. That's like that's the biggest piece when I say confrontation, right? Having more confrontations because I was internalizing it and trying to be like, ah, is this worth it? Like, do I like do I want to let them know that I'm frustrated, right? And then you and then it builds up, and then all of a sudden you're like, you know, all right, 10, 15 different people on our team have done this, like it's an issue. Like when it's like, hey, how about you just like let each person one-on-one in that little moment while it's actually going on? No, like, hey, I like it'd be better if we do this. Um, and even if they don't do it, at least you've made your uh opinion known, right? And then they can move forward with that however they not uh however they want. And um, you know, if you're trying to get them to do something at practice and they're not doing it, and you and you've at least let them know and had that confrontation, then um you've done your job and and they've got to decide whether or not they're motivated enough to make the steps and stuff, right? So um, and then when it's like meeting team expectations, then yes, we're gonna get them there. Um, but there's there's gonna be standards, and if you're not meeting them, then sure there'll be some accountability or consequences to your actions, but that doesn't mean I have to like be a tyrant about it. It's just hey, here like unfortunately, you continue to not meet the standard, here's what's gonna happen now. Um and and then we'll just move forward calmly and collectively and you know have have the standard that we're gonna set and move forward with it. But I don't need to um, you know, I want you to feel my passion at practice every day, but in the in the right ways that are productive.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think you made uh if I just highlight another like I I love deconstructing things. So just I I heard something else in what you said that I think is a really big insight for people listening, and that is, as you said, okay, so like you see one kid kind of step outside the expectations and you sublimate it, right? But then it's 10 or 15 instances. The problem with sublimating it in the moment is when you finally break through to say when it like the 16th uh instance comes and then you're confronting a kid, you're gonna you're gonna confront them with the weight of the 16 instances, and that's not fair to them. Like the it may be I I I I remember this moment, it'll stay with me for the rest of my coaching career. It was my last job was coaching at Wahoo's, and I don't remember what I got angry with the group of kids I was coaching about for, but I had um a girl in the group, and this was like my show up early, do absolute everything I say, to the T, um last person out of the water, always finish warm down, like my most conscientious swimmer, right? And I had just unloaded on the group, and she came up to me afterwards and she was like, I'm so sorry, coach, I'll be better tomorrow. And it absolutely shattered, I mean, it broke my heart because I was like, No, I wasn't I wasn't talking to you, but she felt the weight of you know, like ever me allowing every other instance to sort of accumulate and then unloading that, right? So it's you you can kind of think you can convince yourself that that frustr that that sorry that confrontation in the moment is gonna be too much for somebody to handle, but that's a lesson you've learned from you know, like bringing the weight of 16 instances onto one person rather than just being like, hey, something happened in the moment, I'm gonna say something, and then we'll both move on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, 100%. Uh and I I just want to emphasize when you know when I'm talking about confrontations, right? Those can still be level-headed, cool, calm conversations, right? Confrontation is simply addressing something that you're you that that's not working for you or not meeting the expectation that you're hoping for, right? So, and I think that's been the the really fun part is uh, and I know it's weird to say confrontation and then fun within like the same sentence, but but in a way it's been really fun to like um watch the progress with that as the years gone on and get the feedback from the guys, again, that they're willing to kind of crank up the confrontations on um, hey, well, like here, like here's things we would like to see from our coaching staff or from you, or like other guys on the team that we think can be better. And again, so you're getting away from team members internalizing things, they're willing to be more open, uh, and then we're all communicating about what we'd like the program to look like. And a lot of times that's a ton of different thoughts, and you're not all right, 34 swimmers plus our coaching staff, like you're not all gonna be on the same page at all times. Um, but if you at least see where you're trying to go and you see what the path is, it's a lot easier to if you're communicating what that should or you want that to look like um to everyone, and and everyone's got feedback on what that is, like I do think you make the path a little wider and a little bit uh more accessible for for everyone that's trying to trying to steer down it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Let me ask you about one more thing that I meant to ask about earlier, and then I think we're gonna we're gonna you know try to bring this to a close. One of the things um that outside of the work that we've done together that I uh been really impressed with, and I don't think I've actually ever I've been curious about this thing, but I I don't think I've ever asked you this question. So I've got to save some nuance for the podcast. So you have a weekly hour-long meeting with the entire team. Um and you talk about all sorts of things in it. I've sat sat in on a a couple of these. I uh and I think one of them I was like, my head was spinning the amount of ground that you covered in one of them, right? Has that always been like has that always been standard operating procedure? Did you is that something you changed at some point? Was that something you're taking over from Cortland or Williams? Or like where did that come from?
SPEAKER_02No, that's that's something that we really just started here. Um I'll actually give credit to Jen Hartnett, our women's coach, has um often done either pre-practice meetings or like on Wednesdays. Uh they practice right before us on Wednesdays, and after practice, um they'll kind of do their version of it. Um and we never went into depth, but you know, it just it it sounded like an awesome idea. Hey, team talk. Uh, it's an opportunity. If there's something the week has to offer, if there's something that we want to go over, um it gives us an opportunity. And and then I kind of ran with the idea in terms of um, you know, what's that gonna look like? Um I'll give I'll give Pete Casaris at base a little bit of props too, right? I think uh getting, you know, I I had been away from swim camps for a long time and getting back into swim camps, you know, you're sitting there having these classroom discussions at a swim camp with these kids, and you're like, you know, a lot of this we don't really take the time to talk to with our collegiate athletes, and like even the fundamentals will be great, right? So um I would say they were kind of inspired by what our women's team had been doing. And um honestly, I think at first a little bit more of like, let's just talk about stroke technique and like fundamentals of skill work and like different things and and and get that in. Um, and then as the years have progressed, and now you've seen uh, you know, I might have to dial them back back a little bit now. Uh I think maybe there's a little bit too much information overload. Um, but there's a broad spectrum where it can be something swimming related and educationally, like here's what you're trying to bring to practice or a skill or whatever it might be for today. Um, but we also spend a good amount of time on mental training and team culture and um you know just just some of the out-of-the-pool stuff that I think is still gonna help them. Um you know, we talk about recovery and sleep and nutrition and like the science behind that, and um it really kind of molds um kind of or or changes throughout the season. Um, you know, as we get further and further into the season, I'm probably not talking about streamlines in January. Are we doing visualization and getting mentally prepared for a championship meet? Absolutely, right? Um and so that changes, and then from year to year, I think there's just general themes that we kind of get on that I like diving a little deeper into. Um so last year was was a lot about unity. This year has has been a lot of um just kind of the mental game and positive self-talk and emotional regulation and kind of overcoming that stuff, a lot of the things that um you know I've been able to kind of take from you and try to start imparting on the team. Um but yeah, they look different, but I, you know, sometimes I feel overwinded, and then a lot of guys are kind of in here at the end of the season being like, those are some of the most valuable times that we have as a team where we're coming together, and um, whether it be learning about the sport or just um you know how to be a great teammate or um you know how to how to meditate or visualize a race at the end of the year, like there's just a lot of value that I think comes from those. So um yeah, it's it's definitely something that we've really enjoyed doing. Uh it looks a little different every year, what like in terms of the content and what it's gonna be, um, but they've held a lot of value for the guys on our team. And you know, just doing that instead of like Dryland one day, um, I think has been more valuable than we would have taken that time to do something else at that point.
SPEAKER_00Right. I mean, it's kind of like my thought as I'm listening to you say it is like you you give some space to something, and then all of a sudden you like realize how much stuff you could fill in that space. And now when I look at like everything that you cover in those meetings, I can't imagine you not having them, right? Like if if somehow, you know, uh I told you next year like you can't have them, you'd be like, uh shoot, I gotta find another time, right, to to to do this stuff because and it's I guess to me that's a lesson in you know, if you're a coach and you have uh stuff that you feel like you're not able to impart on the swimmers. I I think I hear this a lot on the mental side of the sport. My advice to people always is well then create some space for it. Like because maybe it just doesn't have a space to fill yet. Um and I I uh I'm gonna endor co-endorse the shout-out to Pete Cazaros. I need to get him on the podcast. Thank you for reminding me that, especially on the back of um he had a swimmer on his team, set a D2 national record, uh, I believe, win NCAAs this past year. Um so great, great season for him. But I remember I was up there uh at Bates the previous year and I found it so, so energizing. And one of the little things that speaks to what you're saying was, you know, Pete said to me, like, hey, I'm gonna loop you in on some team emails in the lead up to it. And I got one of these emails. I mean, it was probably one of the longest emails I've ever read in my life. And I was I was um I was so riveted reading the whole thing because I was like, oh, he's really gonna do it. Like he's gonna explain what's going on in practice right now in absolutely as much detail as is as you know as needed to do it. And I think sometimes we think like, oh gosh, everybody's got a short attention span, nobody's gonna pay attention, like we gotta just go. And I'm like, nah, I th give it some time, like give it some space to address some of these things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And they and they want to know, right? Uh they they are passionate about the sport. There's a there's a reason that they're on the team and participating, and like uh they want to know how to be better, they want to know why we're doing what we're doing from a training standpoint, like, and I better be able to explain that as a coach. And uh, you know, I I think in general, like they they love learning and and then get to pass that down as as upperclassmen to our to our incomers every year, right? Uh yeah, and and that's kind of like I think if you're not constantly nurturing the culture, then it's gonna get like that's like this the minimum to like keep it rolling, right? Like there's things that you want to improve on, but like if you're not nurturing and cultivating what you want to see, like you can probably assume it's gonna get worse. Um rather rather than just be like, oh, like we're good, like the team's great right now, we'll just let it flow. It's like that's probably the worst mistake you could make as a coach is like think everything's fine. Um, because it might it might be for a tiny bit, but then it's likely not going to be after a while when um you you don't continue to make sure that like things are getting passed down, people are understanding what we're trying to do here, and and uh you know, for us specifically, like what it means to be a TCNJ swimmer and diver and and um you know the culture that we're trying to cultivate on like a yearly basis.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there everybody wants, and and I will take your cue uh to finish up here, but everybody wants set it and forget it mode. It just doesn't really exist in life, unfortunately. I wish sometimes, you know, that there was just like uh uh in relationships, in um my own career, in any of the coaching that I'm doing, that there was a you know an autopilot where I could just get like and flick the switch and this will just run itself from here on out, but just doesn't exist, it's just not there. So um you gotta you gotta make some kind of investment in it. Well, it's been amazing recording this. I knew this was gonna go well, but it uh somehow exceeded my expectations. Um if I'm gonna let allow you to plug things in a second, but if if anybody wants to reach out to me um via the podcast, swimbriefpodcast at gmail.com, you go to Christdcoach.com, uh recently redesigned website, come check me out there, write a contact form. You can message me on Instagram. Um and I should mention I referenced it earlier, but I'm gonna be at the CSEAA, the the collegiate swim coaches conference or annual meeting as it's called in a month. I'm gonna be speaking, I'm gonna be leading a couple of panels. I was just telling Dave about that before we started it. So um really excited about being there. So if you're a listener to the podcast and you're gonna be there, shoot me a message. Leave me a comment on one of these, tell me that you're gonna be there because I want to meet you. Um I always love to meet uh listeners of the podcast. Dave, yeah, anything do you want to you want to plug maybe TCNJ social media so you people listening this cannot be a dope like me and go through the whole year working together without either of us following each other? Just basic social media stuff that we missed on. We were too we were too concerned with working, you know, like together.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. The the biggest one we're using, uh we're on Twitter and Instagram. We definitely use Instagram the most. Uh it's just TCNJ underscore M Swim. Uh M M Swim Dive. Um and if you just look up TCNJ Men Swim, it'll show up if you're in a search bar. But uh yeah, give us a follow. Like we're we're pretty active on there, um, showing showing all the great things that are going on here for our our swimmers and athletes. Uh and then the one other plug I'll I'll give while we're on here is we've got uh if there's any swimmers listening, we've got a speed and power clinic on April 27th. Um still have quite a few spots for it. So you can find the link in our bio of our Instagram, um, and we're still signing up for that. But nice. Yeah, I'm also I'm also heading to the CSCAA uh and really excited if there's any coaches listening in. Uh I know I know most of my uh D3 counterparts and colleagues out there, um, but especially uh any other coaches from other divisions that haven't gotten a chance to meet me. Um, you know, come up, say hi. Always, always love uh meeting new faces and and talking.
SPEAKER_00I can vouch for Dave. He's very friendly. Yeah. Uh that's one of his best traits. Um okay, thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you to everybody for listening. And I'll be back again in a week, possibly with more Dave. We'll have to wait and find out.
SPEAKER_02Thanks.