In just a minute, you'll be listening to my podcast with Herbie Beam. Before that, a bit of housekeeping for all you listeners. As many of you know, this week I'm going to speak at the World Aquatic Development Conference in Sweden. If you're still interested in attending the conference virtually, you can sign up. Go to WADC.se, and it'll take you there. A digital pass, I just checked at the current exchange rate, costs about $225, but you can save $50 off that by using my promo code DeSantis25. Before I was even speaking at the conference, I was planning on attending. So I think that there's a lot of value to be gained by the speaker lineup, but you should go check for yourself, see if it's something that's interesting to you and sign up if you want to. The second piece I want to tell you about is in regards to this podcast. I record nearly every podcast from my house with a remote guest. However, given that I'm going to be at this conference with a lot of interesting people, I'm thinking I'm going to try something new, recording live. Do I necessarily have the right equipment? No, absolutely not. But we're going to give it a try. And what that means is that uh there may be some absolutely phenomenal podcasts coming up, or there may be no podcast next Monday. That's just the hazards of doing this all by myself. So I'm just going to ask that all of you guys please be patient, keep listening. If there's no podcast next Monday, I haven't fallen off the face of the earth. Uh things are going to get right back very soon. All right. Enjoy my podcast with Herbie Beam. Hello, I'm Krista Santis, and uh welcome to the swim brief. Oh, I did that in the reverse order. But anyway, welcome to the swim brief. Uh I am joined today, big time guest for the swim brief, the head coach of both men's and women's swimming and diving at Arizona State University, Herbie Beam, uh fresh off World Short Course Championships in his first season as a collegiate head coach, coaching the defending national champions. Um anything else I need to add in there in your intro, Herbie?
SPEAKER_00No, that's that's more than enough. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Conqueror of worlds. I don't know. Yeah, like I feel like I'm your herald right now, you know, like in medieval times. So let's um let's get into the job that you've stepped into right away because I've I've been catching up on some of your old podcasts. Um and you know, the nice thing is that uh life moves on, there's new stuff to talk about. And I I wrote you uh ahead of time. I just think you're in a very interesting situation, as I said. Like it's it's unusual that a team wins a national championship and then changes coaches in the offseason. I was trying to think of a precedent for this. I mean, the closest I could come actually was sort of Brett Hawk having to take over in the middle of a season that was on its way to a national championship. Yeah, so I can imagine you're excited to do that. But talk a little bit about how you approach that kind of unusual situation, that unprecedented territory.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think um, I mean, in my opinion, I think it was a great thing for the team and for our continued development because um it kind of tested something we've been building towards is that it's it's all about kind of our culture and community and how we work together and how we support each other. Um and then when it's shaken like that, that's when everybody has the just opportunity to step up. And it's something I I think has gotten a lot better. It's something that it's crazy to say that because it's not that anything was poor about our culture and community and the support we've had, but now when it's we're kind of all forced to double down on that and be like, look, I I think the success is because of that, and that's the single thing we can point to that leads to us being national champions and having success at the Olympics and world championships and all these things. Um, and it's it's kind of a good thing with um with Bob leaving and same with with Leon leaving on the college team. It's like, okay, well, superstar's gone. Somebody's got to step up into that role. And it's, I mean, immediately Ilya Karoon stepped right in. Um kind of it's like, I think, um, no, there's I might say it wrong, but there's a Leo Tolstoy quote that's like um all happy, all unhappy families, or all happy families are alike, but all unhappy families are unhappy in their own unique ways, and that's kind of like a team. Um we're really successful ones. You can't really see anything magic going on, but there's constant support from every single person, and that's what we've we have here, and I think um just the changes and and shaking things up and coming into a season where we're defending national champs, not favored to win, has been a really good thing as well. Um, on the men's and women's side, I think like the inclusion and support we've had on the women's team has been incredible, and they've been making huge progress.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I I want to ask you about uh an aspect of that because you talk about some of the culture stuff, and you know, like one of the things I would I I have all sorts of things I'm dying to hear discussed that maybe I'll never hear anybody appropriately address. But like, you know, Dave Durden, for example, he he's coached a bunch of national championship teams. Uh he also coached at Maryland, and it was like a middle-of-the-conference ACC team.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I'm dying to sit down and ask him and go, like, can you please like in as in as succinctly as you can describe to me the difference between culturally between those two places? You've you've not always been on a national championship team. In fact, you you you were part of that for the first time in the last year. Um what do you think culturally, right? You say nothing's perfect, but what are what are some things that you think really are difference makers in terms of the culture of a team like that?
SPEAKER_00I think it's the constant um competitiveness and and it I think it's the way you view competitiveness ultimately, to where you recognize like this competition is what will bring the best out of us. And when you have a whole team um understanding that and to when they're coming to practice, doing everything they can to beat the person next to them, but also supporting that um and knowing that those two things are linked together is is when people start getting really good. Um, and that's when even like we just had Christmas break and and people trying to have do stuff to give themselves an advantage coming back, um that's that's really special. And that's something that I think I'm incredibly fortunate to um have been on some unsuccessful college. Less successful, yeah, yeah, less successful is a better word. Um and and seeing that, and seeing that obviously there's some specific training things that have to be done, but that the most important thing is the um support and the way people go about it. And that's what we do a good job of here. Um and it's so much more than the swim practice takes care of itself. And in all honesty, I think it's kind of easy to be um competitive and excited from September to February in a college season because there's a lot of fun stuff going on, but it's the rest of the year. Um, it's also on Saturday nights, how you take care of yourself and and all of those things that um you have to live a different life than um uh what might be considered a normal college experience. But when people understand that's the key to success is when when success starts happening.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think, you know, I I really like what you said. You talk about competitiveness, but also viewing uh competitiveness as a process that's going to bring out the best for you. I mean, I think I wrestle with this sometimes too. Like I see things, things are getting more and more competitive. And sometimes I worry, looking out there, that everything's becoming, you know, sort of win at all costs. And then what do we have at the end? Okay, somebody's a little bit faster than somebody else. But if the process was sort of, I don't know, um dehumanizing on the way there, like was it really worth it in the end? Um, but I also, you know, had the perspective you said we're coming off the holidays and like we're we're recording this two days after New Year's. Uh I was in my bed at 10 o'clock on New Year's. I mean, I'm I'm an older guy. I'm obviously I'm not a college guy anymore, so it's it's nothing to brag about. But on the other hand, I had this realization that I had no concept that I was missing out on anything. Yeah being on bed. There was no part of me that was like, oh man, you should have like really let it rip tonight. I thought, no, actually, I'm just gonna go to bed and tomorrow I'm gonna wake up and get on with my life. Like, get back to this stuff that that I want to do. And so I I when I hear athletes talk about, you know, you've got to make some sacrifices to success, I wonder if that's really the right framing, right? Because it is, is it really about sacrifices, or is it actually just about making the decisions that lead you to what you want in the end?
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I think I think uh you're spot on with that. And it's more of the decisions and it's recognizing that um, I mean, everything has a cost, but I think, and it's something we actually talked about, um that like you kind of have to go all in on something to see what you can do. And this idea of like a balanced life is the most fun is just simply not true. Because there's a lot of I I think a lot of people really enjoy this pursuit of becoming the best they can be. Um, yes, there's ways to do that in an unhealthy way, and yes, there's ways that you, I mean, aren't taking care of yourself and aren't taking where it's it's bad. Um, but it's some of the most rewarding things if you if you do it. And if you have a whole group of people where everybody's bought into that same vision, it's incredible. And that's like what life is all about, honestly. Um, and that's so much more fun than okay, don't don't try too hard this summer because you want to feel good next next semester, and like don't don't push yourself too hard too early. It's like let's let's find out if we are really good at this. Um, and fortunately, we have a team here where every single person wants to see kind of how good they can be in this sport. A lot of them are seeing, okay, can I be the best swimmer in the world? Um and when you have a bunch of people like that, it's a really special thing to be a part of. And I know I don't feel like I'm missing anything. I'll give you a very specific example.
SPEAKER_01Yesterday, yes, I want to hear it.
SPEAKER_00ASU played in we played Texas in the the Peach Bowl to move on to the net, and it was one of the most fun games I've ever seen. It was so I thought the game would be over by two, which is when practice started. Um and we had it in the lobby going, and it was like fourth quarter, it was like 140. And some of the kids are like, can we please watch the end? And it's like, okay, we'll we'll we'll just push practice. It was probably done by 215. Um, and the whole team ended up being like we all watched it, just all the swimmers were in their suits in the lobby. Um, and it was a super fun um experience for everybody. But the game ended at like 3.45, and we practiced until 4. So we just got in and did a 1500 shakeout, and most of the kids were like, let me see the practice. And I'm like, dang it, I wanted like I wanted to do that. And they felt like they missed something by not getting to do a difficult practice. So it takes time to develop that and get a whole group behavior to do that. Ultimately, it's getting enough of the right people in. But when you have that, it's not, it you feel like you're missing out when you don't get to swim. Um like, yeah, it's it's something that's fun. It's like if I I think it can't, if and it's up to the coaches, I think, to frame it that way and and organize the training that way. If you're constantly telling them, like, oh, this is gonna be a grind, this is gonna be terrible, well, then they're probably gonna think it's terrible. But if you make it fun and competitive and recognizing, like most of the time when we suit up, the kids are super fired up. Like when I tell them in the morning, like, hey, everybody make sure you have suit tonight, they're they're excited. We normally do hard sets in suits. Um, so they look forward to that. And it's it's again just how you view everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I I I'm listening to you say it, and I think what I hear in there that's so important is wanting to do those things. I mean, I think so much time we spend thinking about like what is the ideal way to train. And I always think like, well, the ideal way to train is is hard, but it's much more important, like uh it's often forgotten, I think, that the underlying piece should be you should want to do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, because whether or not you want to do it, and I'm extrapolating, I know you're like you're you're a student of sports science. Um, so I'm gonna extrapolate some sports science because in the end of the day, we're all making educated guesses anyway. But I I I think I've seen enough evidence that actually whether or not you want to do the training impacts like the physiological response you have to it. So you could have two people with sort of more or less identical physiology, but if one person actually is like, heck yeah, I'm doing this today, it will actually influence the physiological response to it. And I think any coach who's just watched people train sort of knows that um in their heart. I mean, that's just one of those things that that sort of makes sense. Um, but we're gonna get to some of that practice stuff in a minute. I want to switch gears, and I far be it from me, I'm I'm interviewing you on the podcast, and I don't want it to become a Bob Bowman podcast, but I do have one Bob Bowman question to get in here. And I hope you have an example for this because I have to imagine you take over as head coach, you're not the same person, right? You are you are a different person. So what if any moments have there been where you're just like, hey, things are things are different now. You know, we're we're a different team, we got different coaching staff. I'm not Bob. We're not doing it that way anymore.
SPEAKER_00Um that's a great question. I I mean, I guess knock on wood, I've fortunately not really had too much struggle with that because I think it was um again, like I mean, fortunately walking into something where I knew everybody very well and it was kind of well established who I was, how I worked, and we did things a lot differently. Um definitely at the beginning, there was a lot of having to get get buy-in because it's like, okay, well, um I'm the was always just the the sprint guy.
SPEAKER_01So even for like um yeah, distance swimmer must be like, what are you what are what are we doing, right? Like this isn't the way it was last year, or yeah.
SPEAKER_00So kind of doing that, and I think ultimately it's kids aren't super um ego driven as to who's doing it, but more of like, do the does this person care? Um, and I think that's the most important thing. And it's like, hey, we're gonna do this. Here's the um kind of plan, here's the philosophy, here's what we're doing. Um, but that's something that our our whole coaching staff kind of has to be the core of what we do. It's like we're just trying to get you to be the best swimmer you can be. Um, and there's a lot of different ways to do that. But if physiology is the the core of the decision making, um, and at the same time, it's the just behaviors that we're doing, um, just like what we talked about. That's something I think is really important is liking what you do and enjoying it because you're gonna be able to do it a lot longer. Um, but that's kind of been the like there was a shock to a lot of people, and it's like, okay, well, um, yeah, this is this is how we're gonna do things. And kind of the way we restructured how the the groups work and how we do that, that was where everybody had, it's like, well, this is how we've done it, so we're just gonna keep doing it that way. It's like, nope, sorry guys, it's that's that ain't happening. Um what did you change?
SPEAKER_01Sorry, what did you change? Um I want to ask that question.
SPEAKER_00The biggest difference we had was we had very distinct um our our our training groups were like you're in this group and you're not ever making any movement back and forth.
SPEAKER_01In the sprint group. You're training in the sprint group 24-7. I mean, not 24-7, but you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think there's some positives to that. I think there's some some negatives as well. So it's trying to, and it's an always changing, always growing process of trying to learn how to how to do that and how to make a schedule for each person that's built around them rather than this is what group you're in. Um so that that was, I think, the biggest change because it was like, okay, well, when when Bob first left and we hadn't um there was no no Salo, no Corey here yet, and it was like, okay, some holes. Some people were like, is there just not gonna be an IM group? It's like, no, guys, we're not gonna just skip some of the races. Right. So that was that that was kind of the biggest thing that um happened, similar to your question, but it was also like that change. And I think it's been really good to have that um removal of an identity towards just X group. Um, but it's more about okay, what do you need? And then now it's not a big deal if it's like, hey, you're gonna swim over there today. When that used to be like, well, what do you what do you mean I'm gonna swim over there? Like I'm I'm not in that group.
SPEAKER_01Um I'm getting banished, like, oh no.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so trying to do that, and it's a it's a constantly changing problem, which I think is good, and that's what's fun about it. And I think it should be every single week, you're kind of starting from scratch and and rethinking what does this person need today? Um, and if that's the question before every practice, you'll you'll probably be able to be pretty good. It does get hard to constantly think about that of a ton of people. Um, but that's where I think the highest peak of where we can go as a sport and in training, that's that's where I truly think it lies.
SPEAKER_01The Swim Brief Podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Being a coach is isolating. You know that saying that it's lonely at the top? Well, for many coaches, that's reality. Being a coach means everyone has an opinion on what you're doing. It takes work to filter out the noise and make the best decisions. You need to be able to think through plans, ideas, and problems proactively. At Chris DeSantis Coaching, I fill that gap for coaches. I'll help you turn every rocky moment into a slingshot and provide the support you need to be at your best. You deserve to have someone in your corner, and everyone on your team will benefit. If you want an expert to have your back in your coaching career, go to ChrisDoach.com right now and fill out a contact form. You'll get an hour of my time at no cost to you. You don't have to go it alone any longer. Back to the podcast. Yeah, it's actually strikes me interesting because I think like a lot of the stuff that I've seen that gets a lot of attention from you, obviously, was some of the stuff you were doing as quote-unquote the sprint coach. And, you know, I was looking at it. It's it seemed like very highly specified to let's call them sprint athletes, if if we can, right? Um, but the approach that you're talking about now is actually one that's that's yes, maybe tailored to individuals, but also generalized in a way to say that like you don't need to train in such a highly specified, maybe for you specifically. I know I'm like using a lot of the same term, but for you specifically, you don't need to train in that highly specified way every day, every workout. There's going to be a benefit from you generalizing and sort of like cross training almost into something else. Do I understand that right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's exactly like it's all built on like specificity and individuality. And I think the individual piece is the is the real key. Um That's where it's it's everything's kind of on a continuum where you do need to increase those general abilities. And some people are limited by that. So if you can increase those, there's going to be transfer to their highly specific task because they're going to be able to do it at a higher level more often. So it's it's kind of a feedback loop for each person each week where we're trying to uncover what that is and how how often you can do that. And that's where I think we do a good job of is rotating through that and and physiologically you can do a lot of work if it's changing quite a bit throughout a week. Um it's that's what said that pretty often, but the um all the Soviet literature where the word for overtraining was directly translated to monotonous training. It's not doing too much of something, it's doing too much of the same thing. Um if you're changing that, even if you're a I mean, especially if you're a 400 I am or something like that, you can there's a lot of ways you can go about it. Um and it's more about finding that individual's weakness and then building that up while still building their just general capacities and doing what still makes them good. But if you're just doing one or the other, they're not gonna improve everything every week. And that's the goal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I I think what I'm hearing in in your in what you're talking about is, you know, like I think with any kind of training, you almost have these bell curves. So like if you do very little of something, you can get a lot of improvement out of doing a little bit of it, right? And then as you do more and more, you sort of face diminishing returns, and it goes like, okay, well, we're gonna put more time into this, or we're gonna move to a different area where the curve is still steep and just like let the growth come. And then when we come back to this, you know, we're gonna be on a steep growth curve again on the other side of it.
SPEAKER_00Um the sigmoid curve. Do you know that that term? And no, I don't.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no. Yeah, it's it's literally like if you um I'm gonna use it now if it's if it's what I just said, then I'm I'm I'm feeling it's really what it is.
SPEAKER_00It's like a thing in physics, where it's that, and you're trying to make and that's how I think of physiologically trying to adapt. You're doing something, and then once you start, because that's the the law of accommodation where it's literally the diminishing returns. So once you start going down, the goal of training is to once you get really good at something, change and then do something else, change, then do something else. I think a lot of coaches make the mistake of, oh man, we're doing really good, let's keep doing it, and then you start getting worse and worse. But that's what we're constantly trying to do, and that's uh can be for me at first, it was really stressful to be like, well, this is what made them pretty good. But if you keep doing that, you're gonna get worse. So it's it's kind of a um constant learning for the athlete, but also the coach, and that's where it becomes fun for for me. And I think if all coaches kind of embody that, it'll be um a more enjoyable process for them as well, because you're constantly looking for new problems to solve.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to get fossilized into like this is the way it is, and we're just gonna keep, you know, sort of making the same recipe over and over again. I want to you referenced a couple of your uh assistant coaching additions, and I said in the outline before this, I I was really curious about this. I I don't think I even realized until I sat down to do this that you hired Corey Manley, which is super interesting to me. I know like probably everybody else who's listening to the podcast is screaming, like, ask him more questions about Salo. But like I'm like, I'm like the type of guy who's like, Corey Manley. So uh I guess I want to back up from that and just have sort of more of a generalized conversation. When you looked, right, you you had to you had to do some hiring, you had to fill out a coaching staff, you had to look at, you know, who who you had, and then you know, who you wanted to add to that mix, right? Um, because your team was going to change and and you had sort of were maybe thinking about what roles people were gonna fill philosophically. Give me sort of in general, like what were you thinking um with those hires?
SPEAKER_00Um well, with um like with Corey specifically, it was like, well, I the data piece is something that I've always been been interested in and something I've been wanting to learn how to improve, and something that it's like I've got use Excel all the time and it's all kind of self-taught. Um it's like, well, what if I get somebody who actually knows actually knows what they're doing um with this? And I had known him, gotten to know him pretty well just from him working with USA swimming. Um, and some of the the stuff he did was was really cool, like the national practice data and all of that is like, oh, that's exactly what what I would love to see, where I'd love to see this sport go. Um and it's really exciting. That's what I think is so cool about um just this ability to be a head coach on a college team where you can do it kind of however you want. Um, and rather than like, okay, well, we can we can have six coaches really, and those coaches can do whatever we want them to do. Um so if we have six people all with the exact same way of viewing things on the pool deck, it's it's not gonna grow that much. But I thought of him as somebody who won, I think he's good, like really good at coaching, anyways. Um, no, I agree. He's doing great in that aspect, but at the same time, can make this way of okay, we can collect any data that we want and kind of interpret that. And that's something that can go directly back and educate any coach, any swimmer on the staff. So, like I thought about it, or first step that he's done an incredible job of is like USA national team. If you're on the national team, you swim at a pro series meet, you get an email with your just stroke rates and all of that data that's that's super valuable. Um, and something I've used a lot and always um love that when you have a kid on the national team go to these meets, you get all that. And he does that for every swimmer on our team, every meet. So it's it's pretty incredible information that they're getting. And then every coach can use that as well and look at the just concrete data side where there's no um real opinions, no, that it's like, okay, well, you've you took more strokes at the end, so we've got to figure out how to take less strokes, or here's how many kicks you're actually taking. How do we improve that? And then you can make practices to well, at the end of your 400 I am, you only took two kicks off the wall. So if we just take three kicks off every wall, every practice, you're probably gonna do that, or even um make that a little more specific and and work those details. But that's something that it's like, okay, he's filling the role of coaching, but also opening this door of educating and supporting everyone else in a completely different way.
SPEAKER_01Um so and and sorry, I got so excited listening to that. I just have to burst in with something. When you do highly specified training, I think one of the biggest problems people run into is data. You need data. Yeah, you need data to support it. And it's hard. It's hard to keep track of data, it's hard to record data. And like, you know, if you just write, if you just sort of roll into like, okay, well, we'll we'll write some stuff down sometimes, you end up with this, you know, crazy, kind of disorganized jumble of like, okay, we took some data here, we we did it here, but like you haven't you don't have that organizing principle to put it all together. So that sounds really exciting to me from that perspective, that you know, like you just have somebody who's kind of focused on that piece of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And that's what he's done an I mean outstanding job of that, of also, and this is what it's I've been super excited that he's um equally passionate about. If like we're on a college campus where there's a lot of kids who are excited about helping um and wanting to be a part of it. Um so we have like a little army of student managers who come all the time at all of our test set days. We have pretty much almost every single coach has somebody there. Um we jokingly call them scribes because they're just writing down like all the all the data we can use and have this huge database from every set we've done. And that's what I think will be really exciting at the end of the season as well, where we can compile that and look, okay, here's how it worked, here's how it was correlated across all the races, and here's how the changes happened and how that affected this, and then we can um rethink everything and looking just straight up at those those numbers where it's not opinion-based, but just factual in that sense, and then analyze what we did. And I think the learning process will just be super expedited for every coach on the staff, and we have that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because at the end of the day, right, you will make objective um or you will make subjective decisions, right? You will, at the end of the day, everyone will be using their judgment, but it's nice to know what the objective data is when you're making those decisions. And it's, you know, I think to you, uh it's funny you say the word scribes because it is it is a challenge of the sport of swimming in that, you know, technology and water doesn't really mix very well. So um, you know, it's always you would love to have more technology close to the pool deck, you know, to record a lot of stuff. But at the same time, expensive technology falling in the water is big is a big hazard from a swimming perspective. So you do to a certain extent have to do things kind of old school and get them in there. I'm still waiting for somebody to invent a smartwatch that like logs my you know my thumb presses and just like automatically exports something, you know, to to a Excel spreadsheet for me. Um I think that would be incredible. Anybody who's listening to the podcast, if you're like at uh Nielsen Kellerman or Seiko or something, like make that happen. Um but let's switch and let's let's talk about something that just happened uh short course world championships. And uh when I actually contacted you first, you were over at in Budapest at the meet. Um and the swim breathe podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Are you tired of not competing at your best? I've worked with countless athletes who felt that their mind was limiting them on race day. As a pioneer in the field of positive psychology, I have a unique approach. Instead of fixing what's wrong, I help athletes build an entirely new framework from the ground up, and I do it in as little as 12 weeks. I teach them how to make their active mind something that helps them. The work that I do stays with athletes long after we finish. Those that work with me get permanent results that go beyond their sports career. They not only bust through their current plateau, but learn what to do when the next one comes. If you know an athlete that could benefit from a complete rebuild of their approach, fill out a contact form at chrisdcoach.com. Let's find out what they're truly capable of. Back to the podcast. And I want to ask you sort of a big picture question because I I think you know, this short course championships that happens after the Olympics. I think first off, this one was incredible, but in the lead up to it, there was a lot of conversation like, oh, people are skipping, you know, people are skipping out on this experience. I wonder if you could give some insight, because I don't see an educated conversation about that. Give some insight as to somebody who's coaching athletes that are at that level, you know, been to the Olympics, but maybe making a decision about whether or not they want to compete internationally six months, six, seven months after they compete in the Olympics. For you as a coach, what do you think goes into a decision like that?
SPEAKER_00I think there's a lot that goes in into it. And I think it's not just coming from the coach, it's coming from the athlete as well. And that's what I think it's it's kind of going back to the beginning of this conversation where it's they've if you go, you should be inspired to go. It should be um like it's either a no or a hell yes, is what I like to say. And it's like, okay, if you're a hell yes going about this, well then then go for it. And I think there's a lot of ways to do it. Um, I think a great example of somebody who did really well was was Reagan Smith, who's been training here in Tempe, um, who went to the World Cups, and it was like uh a semi-laid-back preparation for her, like not quite as serious. I mean, she's she comes and and works hard, but I think psychologically it's not um like nose to the grindstone. That's why she decided to stay here and be with her her friends, people who she's really close with on the team, um, and kind of do two things at the same time and still kind of use the World Cups and the racing of that as preparation. Not that she wasn't preparing here, but it's one of those, like, even no matter what, when you're going to a meet like that, I always think about it as like, okay, when you're going to this meet, it's not the meet that makes you better. It's the three, four weeks beforehand when you're really focused on being prepared for that meet. And then it's all the information you learn at the meet and applying that to practice. Because if you miss a turn and lose a medal, you're gonna remember that turn and you're not gonna make that when you might make that mistake, but you'll try not to make that mistake again. Hopefully it won't, yes. Um, so there's a lot that goes into that, and that's what I think is is really good. Um, that the sport is kind of accepting and and recognizing. Like, one, I think the reality is if we think everybody's gonna be ready every time, like we need a big reality check. Even at the Olympics, not everybody's 100% ready. We we act like everybody is, but it's still like these decisions piling up. Um, this was also really unique because it's the it was the fourth world championships or Olympics in like an 18-month window. So there's a lot of them. And to talk about that decision, the Doha World Championships, where some of the people I coached, some went, some didn't go. Um Ryan Held, we had this conversation where he was selected, and at first he he wanted to go. He had just taken um about a month or so break after a really successful worlds in Budapest. Um and he was like, Oh, I I want to go. And I I said, I don't, I don't think you should. Uh and he was kind of shocked by that. And then we had a longer discussion, and it's like, it's not that because he's like, it's only gonna be 10 days. Like, I'm not changing that much of practice, but it's like, well, it's the what's going into that and then what's coming out of it. And for him, it's like he was older in his career, and we want to be totally dialed and enjoy this process all the way through Olympic trials. So when you're going to Olympic trials, it's not like exactly what we just talked about, where it's not, okay, I'm just I just need to grind through this and do everything I can. And he wasn't in bad shape, but he wasn't like a hundred percent ready. The readiness that he would expect of himself at at a world championships. Um, this was like in November when he got selected for that. And it's like, I think if we just kind of go to US Open, take a week or two off, and then start getting ready for Olympic trials, he'll be a lot better. Um, and he went home, talked to his wife, talked to his psychologist, talked to all this, and then was like, Yeah, I think I think you're right. I think we need to um just do that. Because it was like, I remember telling him, like, do you think you're 100% ready right now? This was middle end of November. And he was like, Oh no, no, but I could get ready. And it's like, you want just this insane stress on yourself to get ready for something that for him it isn't that important because making another Olympic team after he made one, missed one, and then it's like, okay, this is kind of the end of his career, wanting to end on a highlight. It's for for him, it wasn't worth it to do that. Um, and seems like Leon had a very similar approach to this, where um, I mean, he's been racing off, like he's still swimming, it's still training. Because I saw him racing in some little island off of Africa where it looked beautiful, but he's like, okay, he's still kind of getting what he needs to get done in a different way um while being rejuvenated. And I think it's that combination that we need to have. So, one, I think for someone like Ilya, who was like super fired up to go and went there and did great and came straight back like two days later and got into practice and it didn't really take a ton out of him. Um, yeah, it was fantastic for him to go, but everybody's different. So it's it's kind of it's it's hard to give a straight up yes or no answer as a whole. So it's kind of for each person to decide for themselves.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think like it could sound like we're just discussing like something that's such a high-level concept, right? That's you know, like swimmers going to the Olympics and short course world championships. But I kind of wanted to ask this question because I think this is relevant to anybody who's competing at any level. Like at any point, you just sort of have to decide like compete or don't compete. Like, am I am I gonna show up to the next meet, or is it better if I just sort of like focus in on what I'm doing at the moment, or maybe I have something longer term that means I'm not gonna compete uh in this upcoming meet. And so I think it's an interesting conversation to have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's what um she had this conversation with uh Brent Arkey at at Worlds. He's one of the Canada coaches, and we were like Summer Macintosh's club. Yeah, Summer Scott. Yeah, he's doing a great job. But um he was like, Well, this is still just a swim meet. Like, and it's like, yep, totally is like there's fast kids, there's slow kids. Some kids are missing races, some kids are like it's totally the exact same as any other meet we've been to. It's just a little more complicated, harder to get there. But other than that, it's the exact same thing. Um, and I think that's a really calming thing. It's also like a big ego check that I think um is important to have um though there for a lot of a lot of people. Um and yeah, I think I'd say that's that's probably the biggest um battle of this and making these decisions is that. But I'll tell you the biggest uh ego check I had of when it's like, okay, starting to feel confident in coaching. It's the first time um I was speaking at one of these national team conventions, and it was at this hotel, and walking into the room, there was a sign, and it was like, left swim coaches, right magicians. I was like, man, we are we are not cool at all. No matter what what we think is is cool that we're doing, it's like, oh man, that's pretty humbling right now.
SPEAKER_01Um well that that's a perfect segue into sort of the last topic that we're gonna get into today, because you've been talking about, I mean, I I think you're very well known for uh, I just think bringing a lot of creativity to practice. And it's not a creativity that's born out of like, you know, Herbie sitting around going like, ah, just shooting from the hip. I think we're gonna do this today, right? You're a curious guy. You're known as somebody who's kind of wants to learn and then try to apply what you've learned. Um, and I can relate to that. And I think I I just I wonder uh what is your approach? So you're reading something right that's written by a sports scientist, or you you you've referenced some of this Soviet stuff, and I have more questions about that as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right, which can be like very dry, sort of very matter-of-fact, and and the reporting on stuff, right, that's not necessarily directly translatable to your environment, right? They're they're doing controlled experiments to like sort of isolate a variable, and you have a million variables that you're considering at any time. How do you translate some of that stuff? How do you think about like, okay, I've I've I've read this interesting thing, and now I'm gonna try to apply it to what I do? Because this is a question I ask myself literally every day, and I want to know how you do it.
SPEAKER_00So the best thing is actually one of the Soviet authors, but um, Antolier Bonderchuk has this pyramid um that I've posted some things about it, but it's basically like if the competitive event is on the top and then it goes down where it's essentially specificity is at the top, individuality is at the bottom, and you're trying to keep it in this continuum where that's like the framework that you're trying to keep everything inside. And you can be as creative as you Want to while still achieving these specific markers. And that's um the exercise's relation to the race. And kind of where that fits in is very different. Because some days on very general days where we're trying to build and say you're trying to just build an aerobic capacity or something like that. Well, that doesn't have to look like the 50 freestyle, but it needs to have some relevance to the race. And it's like how you're moving, how you're doing that, and then you can expand on that. And the most fun stuff is most of the like drills, and we're trying to overload something. Because that's where overload and specificity are the two most important things in training. And those two things are inherently working against each other. Because the more overload something has, the less specific it is. So a hundred freestyle is hard to overload by just doing a hundred freestyle. Like you're not going to do it at all. So if you're trying to overload the endurance side, it's like, okay, well, a 200, a 400, a thousand, a 10,000, well, then okay, you're you're losing relevance. Um, but then you can break it down and look at the individual parts of just how you're moving. Um, and it started to make a lot of sense to me when you're you're really trying to think about what task are you trying to accomplish when you're racing, when you're swimming 100 free and you're doing four laps as fast as you can, um, while trying to beat the person next to you, while doing all of that. Well, then you can take all of these parts out and then kind of put them back in together with pieces missing, but overloading one little part of it. Um, so whether that's overloading the muscle, overloading just how they're moving, overloading the competitiveness, and it's you can over and underload that in a way, and it's constantly changing that. Um but to answer your question of how do I keep that in check, like what is more controlled than a swim meet? You know, like just are so controlled, yeah. It's whether it's the world championships in Budapest or a time trial here on a Friday afternoon, it's pretty much as controlled of an experiment as you can get. And that's where I used to kind of be of that mindset of like, well, it's gotta be, there's like these evidence-based coaches who need need studies and want to see studies and proof. And it's like, what more proof do you need than like we're all just doing very controlled experiments all the time? And that's where kind of piecing this all back together, it's like, well, now we've got a data scientist who can who can help extrapolate that and coordinate that, and we're just constantly doing research and and uh directly applying that, and we're getting live feedback as to how that's working. Um so that's that's really how it's done, and it's been fun for me because I kind of periodized it that way to where, okay, these earlier parts of the season, when we're further away from the meets, this is my exploratory time to try and move into uncharted spots that I think are a good idea, but like we have these meets, and it's like immediate, like, okay, sorry, that was stupid. Um, or oh, that was actually a good idea. There's something here, and you can kind of keep your own path moving in the direction and learning that you want to, and you don't have to wait for for somebody else, because that's this highly competitive world that we're in requires that. Um, and we're in a perfect situation to use it. So it's kind of up to us to just recognize that and then utilize it to the fullest of our abilities.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you talked about evaluation there, and I think this is always a question that I find myself coming back to, because you're right, we are, we do have a highly controlled sport, we have a highly measurable sport, right? I mean, you know, everything's on the clock. When you're evaluating, you're you're trying something, and of course you want to evaluate okay, was this a good change? Is this a good sort of wrinkle that I threw in there? What if anything, besides how fast people are going, right, do you use as a way of evaluating that?
SPEAKER_00So that's where it's I I think the psychological side of that as well, because it's it's it's all a learning process, and that's um something else to kind of uh like I used to think of that this evaluation has to be um comparing it to your previous self, and okay, we've constantly got to be raising the bar, which we we do, but at the same time, like that type of competition with ourselves is can can be unhealthy where you're you're be self-destructive, right? Yeah. So it's like you kind of grade yourself rather than judging yourself on the performance and as like what did you do to get there? And that's what some some of the most proud I've been of swimmers is when they recognize that and start making that change. I'll give you a very specific example. Last year leading into um Olympic trials, who Olivia Smoliga, who had coached for um probably 18 months or so at that time, who'd done really well, was having these back problems that were like recurring, and it would be a month of training, a month of not even being really able to train, and it was really tough. And you could see like, okay, she's struggling with this a lot, and that's where it's like we can't compare ourselves to our previous self because that's a totally different thing, and that was in a different spot, so it's more learning how to um come in each day, and it's like, okay, can we do the best we can with the cards we're dealt? Um, and if we're doing that every single time constantly, well, then we're gonna end up in a great spot. And if we know that's the best spot we can be in, then we're we're really proud of ourselves and happy with that. And that's where um all the data and all that stuff kind of just gets thrown out the window. Um and it's it's more of that emotional understanding, but but ultimately I think we're emotional beings, so it's that that combination that makes it really special because it's the same exact thing can happen when everything's going well. And if you're getting so proud of yourself because you're constantly getting better, and it's sometimes that's like we might not understand it yet, but if you're just like, I'm doing great because I keep getting better and better and better, um, and you're not recognizing like, okay, a lot of this is out of my control. Um, am I doing the best I can? Was this everything I had, even though it was better than last time? So sometimes that can be limiting as well. So it's it's trying to adopt that mindset. Um, and I think coaches and athletes need to do that as well. Um, and then for us coaches, we need to do that and understand that and at the same time almost separate that from the data side, but because that's where we can learn and evaluate our own progress. Um, but I think that's like the most important piece. Um, and in a way, that kind of circles all back into the cultural piece, and that's what I hope everybody can can understand, and that's something that we eventually get to that spot because sport is such a good teacher of that, because if you go long enough, you're gonna start, time's not gonna be helping you, um, and you're gonna have to face that reality. Um so when you're young, and I mean, hopefully there's nobody's really dealing with that in college, but when we have people who are able to move beyond that and keep improving, um, well, then it's a totally different game. And if we're evaluating a different game by the same metrics, well then then we're we're we're we're just not doing doing a good job. That's um I think that's isn't that Parkinson's law? I think that's the law. Uh no, it's Eckhart's law. That um what if you use a measurement as a target, it's no longer a good measurement. So it's constantly changing um how we're learning as well. So it's that, I mean, I feel like somebody listening could be like, what or what is what specifically should I be trying to do? But it's it's that constantly changing problem that that's what I think so fun about this, is that it is okay, what's important? Is it the data? Is it the emotion? Is it the culture? And and the answer is it's all of them. Um so it's there, it's it's never it's never black and white for anything we do in this sport, but that's why um that's why it's enjoyable. Um, and that's that's why I like it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I mean, I come from I do sort of specialize in the psychological end of the sport. And I think some of what you're talking about, uh, you know, I I have found even in my own life, sometimes when we're comparing ourselves to our past selves and we're we're we're we're focused on something very positive. We want to improve. Sometimes we're running away from who we are, right? That that that improvement is sort of a cover, like I don't feel very good about who I am right now, but if I'm improving, then you know, maybe someday I'll be good, right? You know what I mean? Like, and and athletes can tend to start making a promise with themselves that's sort of like, okay, when I get this next improvement, then I'll be satisfied and like feel good about who I am. And it's a lie, right? Because you know, the path to feeling good about yourself is not based on achievement. It's not, it's not, it's it's not uh, it's not a like ask anybody, in fact, who's you know, achieved at the highest level. I I I brought uh Samantha Arsenal at Livingstone on here. She talked about winning a gold medal, and she was crying, and not like necessarily tears of joy. She was like, I thought I would be happier, right? But like, you know, it didn't fix all the problems that I had with myself that all of a sudden I achieved at the highest level. And I think that is a hard lesson um for a lot of athletes to learn. Okay, I have one last question, and I'm glad so glad you referenced the name of uh Bonderchuk, because I was gonna I was gonna fumble for it. I've heard you talk about him. Um and I guess here's how I want to frame this question um because I don't want to sound too provocative in the way that I do it. But like in the field of psychology, when I look back at some of the research we've had, you know, there was different ethical standards, right, at like different times. So, for instance, in in the past, a lot of psychological research was done on prison populations. And so that obviously has problems for the way that you apply it, because I'm not coaching in a prison anymore. You know, like the environment, the the controlled environment on the other end was was quite distinct. When you look at some of the Soviet stuff, here's here's what my the skeptical part of my brain, the skeptic part that wants to pick that stuff apart, does. I go, like, isn't a lot of this based on maybe athletes that were part of some state-sponsored doping program? Like, are my athletes really going to be able to hang? Because I felt like as a as somebody who I think I'm a little bit older than you, so I just grew up at just the tail end of the Cold War. I felt like the Soviets were always looking down on us, like, you guys don't train hard. We train so hard over here. We're just like, we're just breaking everybody down every time. And like the secret wasn't that they had somehow massively hardworking people, but like, for instance, the East Germans, at least we know, were state-sponsored doping athletes. How do you how do you approach, you know, I guess maybe even more my general question, how do you bring a healthy skepticism to some of the stuff that you're looking at?
SPEAKER_00Um, so one, I think the most surprising thing of all this Soviet and even East German research that they have is is the um individuality and really understanding each individual's capacity. And that's why they would take anabolic steroids, is to is to increase that. Um and it's it's interesting because like I think every all of them who were doing that thought they were doing it in a good way. Because it's like, well, they're not getting tired anymore, and they they feel great all the time.
SPEAKER_01Right, they feel great, they recovered from the workout yesterday and they're ready to go. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's it it's it's a very systematic growth in in capacity to where, yes, they're doing an insane volume by the end of that, but when you look at the year to year, how to how they got there, and that's again what inspired this whole data side of things, it's literally recorded of these people's entire lifetime of how much volume, and it and it's like mathematically increasing this volume to where you look at them at 25, it's insane. But you looked how they get there, and it's it's it's it, I mean, makes sense. Um, at the same time, there's a book I just read, the Norwegian Method, where they're kind of doing the same philosophy um of building that individual's work capacity. But this book was interesting because it was all about the culture of life in Norway and sport in Norway and how those things are connected. And that's where you can't um you can't take this philosophy and just pick it up and place it somewhere else and have it work. It has to be fit in with the culture, and that's the culture of how our team interacts and how we train. Those two things work together. Um, and in the Soviet Union, where it was extremely controlled and it was okay, you're doing this work, and then you're doing this recovery, and then you're doing this recovery, and then you're sleeping for this amount of time, that's how they could do that. And they had um their entire life planned out. We can't do that with our with the NCAA, would get pretty mad if we're and we shouldn't ever aspects of their life. But if we can build this culture of competition, and okay, we're trying to um be the best people we can be and be competitive in every way, um, and being honest with ourselves and kind of understanding that step by step, well, all of those things are gonna kind of fall in line. So it's it's I think very much the same way, and at the same time, understanding like, okay, our kids wouldn't do the um the Soviet method, where the weightlifters used to wake up before like the world championships of weightlifting, and they had they would play volleyball for an hour. And it's like that's insane to us to be like, you're gonna train for an hour, and they like, okay, they train for when you look at what they did, it's like, okay, they're training for 18 hours a day, and then they have sleep like scheduled, every moment of their life is scheduled. But then when you look at the goal of the coach, it's like, well, I want them to relax and not think about weightlifting, so that's why we play volleyball every day because it's fun for them and they enjoy it. Right. So those coaches even knew these same things, and they didn't, I don't think they could see it, uh, and they weren't verbalizing it in that way because I they're they just I mean, that's again a whole deeper rabbit hole of the psychology and um how that affects just I mean, like a communist society where they think they're not really thinking of um a competition as a healthy thing.
SPEAKER_01But um I almost think it becomes a limiter in some like so so they they have access to these, like they can really dig in and do research and they can like push people insanely hard. But I think what's interesting to me is when I think about your coaching, I think, you know, obviously you don't have that tool, yeah, any of the tools really that that they had at their disposal, but you're just thinking like, okay, but we're still gonna try to find a way to do even better than we've done before. And placing that limitation on yourself is what forces creativity. I almost look at some of this stuff and I go, that's really interesting, you know, the data that they were able to pull from that. But also I can see how like the dictatorial society and maybe even state-sponsored doping hindered them from becoming more creative as coaches. Because it was just like, okay, well, are we gonna figure out a better way to do this set, or are we gonna like see if we can, you know, pump a few more milligrams in and we'll just do 10% more volume, you know, tomorrow?
SPEAKER_00Like exactly. And at the same time, that's what so a good friend of mine lives in Norway and coaches there. And I was talking to him for a while about that, and culturally, this insane competition is looked at like you're a crazy person. If you want to be the best in the world, it's something it's literally illegal. That's what um uh Carson, what or what's his Carson Warholm. Yeah, yeah. Um he his his dad is in jail right now for abuse because he was making him, I mean, he was doing a lot of other stuff, but the main thing he was trying to make him compete all the time. And it's illegal to take your kid more than like a hundred kilometers to compete until they're 12 years old. So stuff that's normal for us, these our parents would be put in jail if they were like I went to meets when I lived in the world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you definitely went more than 100 kilometers, right?
SPEAKER_00When I was nine to swim in meets, and that's that's illegal. So that's where the culture can't be um has to be understood. And um, like for us, where where that's encouraged and that's liked, okay, we can do this. But if I were to move to Norway and just like, we're competing every single day, they're like, this guy is nuts. Um, so you kind of have to recognize who you're around. Um and and that there's a book you'd like, I can't remember the name. It's like Weirdest People. It stands for Western, Industrialized, Educated Um Thing. And it's it's because every psychology study is on college students where it's like, okay, that's that was the new population after they couldn't do prisons anymore. Yeah, it's like and it's the same thing where it's like, well, yeah, this is true for like middle to upper class, normally, yeah, like this very specific population. So that's where it's it kind of goes back to the culture of the team, is what drives everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I coached in Denmark for uh four years as well, and I so I I was like tangential to that Norwegian culture, so I'm um I'm credulous of some of the stuff you're you're saying there. I think you know, too uh with those Scandinavian countries, it's hard to describe to an American audience, but it's almost like looked down upon to to to be elite, you know, to sort of be at the top level, like people people you will actually like face like social stigma for for standing out competitively.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and that's definitely an interesting challenge to overcome as a coach because obviously you want to help people stand out, you want to help them be their best, right? And that might mean that you stand out and you're better than everybody else. I mean, that's actually like the goal of the the competition, at least from my American.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's that's what's that's what's crazy to me. Like that was blowing my mind hearing that. And you're like, okay, I I couldn't do it this way.
SPEAKER_01But but I think in if if we you know if we just like calm down from that moment, some of the stuff you're talking about, right? Okay, we put that limitation. We say, you know, kids, kids under a certain age, they can't travel that far to go to a competition. Well then everybody knows those are the rules and we work within that. And like, do they really need to? No. You know, like we can make it uh if you're a coach, like you can make it work. Um, you know, you can figure out a way to still give kids a good experience in the sport and help them develop and improve and do all those things. Um, and I remember too, I was uh I've referenced this before on the podcast, but I was like mocking the Norwegians um when I was there because they developed this program they called Olympiatoppen, which was essentially just a platform for sharing knowledge across all of their sports. And I thought, like, well, that's stupid. Like, you know, what is a swimmer I I'm embarrassed to admit it, but you know, like what does a swim coach need to know from the cross-country skiing team? Well, it seems like they're learning quite a bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and and maybe, you know, if we get back to the the heart of this conversation, like they're they're sharing some data and information, and there's more there that can be extrapolated from one uh from one sport to another uh that can help people to you know be competitive in an environment where they're not going to you know it squeeze people the absolute hardest in the entire world. They're looking for a better way um to help people get better. So Herbie, I think that's a great finishing spot. Um I I I'm aware of the time. We've we've gone a full hour, which is very long for the swim brief podcast, but I I told you beforehand it it would depend on how many rabbit holes we went down, and we went down all of them. We could probably do go down a few more, but but uh but a lot of them. Um everybody listening, if you want to get in contact uh with the podcast, you can email me at swimbriefpodcastgmail.com. You can go to christycoach.com, fill out a contact form, and yes, I even accept communications on Instagram grudgingly, Christy underscore coach.com. Herbie, do you have any uh uh socials you want to point people towards?
SPEAKER_00Just at Sir Herb the Third. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01One of the best follows uh in swimming social media. So at Sir Herb the Third, thank you so much for being willing to answer all my uh weird questions and um good luck the rest of the year.
SPEAKER_00Sounds good. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you all for listening. We'll see you again next week. The swim brief podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Are you tired of not competing at your best? I've worked with countless athletes who felt that their mind was limiting them on race day. As a pioneer in the field of positive psychology, I have a unique approach. Instead of fixing what's wrong, I help athletes build an entirely new framework from the ground up, and I do it in as little as 12 weeks. I teach them how to make their active mind something that helps them. The work that I do stays with athletes long after we finish. Those that work with me get permanent results that go beyond their sports career. They not only bust through their current plateau, but learn what to do when the next one comes. If you know an athlete that could benefit from a complete rebuild of their approach, fill out a contact form at Christdcoach.com. Let's find out what they're truly capable of. Back to the podcast.