Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I am Chris DeSantis, and I'm so excited to bring on, once again, for the second time, for a return tour, Ashley Eckerpin. She's a uh mental performance coach. She's uh you're in the Houston area, right, Ashley? But you see people from all over the country. Absolutely. And I'll I'll just tell the story for the people listening to the podcast. Um, the the authentic story of how you came to be back on here again. Had you on the podcast, you were great. The first time around on the podcast, I started following you on social media afterwards. And I'm I'm a known, I mean, my audience knows I'm a social media hater. Um, I'm practically apologetic about the fact that I'm on Instagram. And generally, like uh, especially in in the arena, um, we're operating in in the same arena. Um I find myself very critical of other people and like the kind of social media advice they're dispensing. But I saw your stuff and I kept on looking at it. I kind of kept on being like, heck yeah, yes, yes. Like I'm like sitting by myself reading it, being like, this woman is spitting some facts about what's going on. So I wanted to bring you back on and give you a chance, give my audience a chance to have the same experience that I'm having, um, have a conversation with you about some of these topics, because there's some that I'm really interested in as well, and uh and see where that takes us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'll tell you, I also loathe social media. It's a beating. I do it because I have a business and I want people to know that I exist. And I do have some cool stuff to share, but I think it just can be so monotonous and like just sucking into this like comparison zone. So I don't like it either. I do things because I think there's amazing advice that we can offer athletes and parents and share, but that is the highest compliment I can give because when I'm on it, I'm also like, ugh, and I find that most of the stuff I see is so um just repetitive.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I mean I wouldn't want to have a too long of a conversation about social media, but I I do find myself, and it actually helps me to process um social media a bit, that I think you know, high quality information is actually not likely to like go viral. Uh it's not designed to go viral. So I know like as you and I were communicating in the lead up to this, some of the things you were like, yeah, okay, like I throw this post out there and it gets like five likes. And I'm sitting there, like, I probably didn't even like it. I just silently like read it and went, yeah, yeah, you go. Like, so, but this podcast, I think one of the things I like about this podcast is podcasts goes out to thousands of people. And we all have agency, right? So here's me taking uh at least my agency to say, okay, I actually think this is some high quality content. And and by the way, you know, on Instagram, I what do I get? Like this little snippet of it. I want to know more. I want to know more um about some of the stuff you're talking about. Okay, so let's get into our first topic, because it's one that I find myself coming back to a lot, and I'm really curious to hear a little bit more from you about it. Um, this is the concept of ego, and um I'll tell you where I find myself in a lot of conversations. I think that people get backed into a corner quite a bit defending their own ego, right? It's um it's a very natural thing to do, to perceive like, and and I think if I were to define ego, it's sort of a, it's not, it's not who you are, but it's a perception of who you are, right? And that's a very important distinction to make because when you're in in the trenches defending your ego, you're defending it as if it is who you are, right? You know, somebody has said something critical um to you, and instead of being like, oh well, you know, maybe I should reconsider my perception, it's it's you know, it's coded as like that that's a knife right into my chest, and I need to do something to protect myself right now. Um what where do you come at with ego? I mean, do you do you do you have a similar definition and where do you find it coming up in your work?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think it's interesting that we were talking about social media, and I'm not gonna uh keep referencing this, but a lot of um athletes or just teens in general, uh who are we kidding? Humans, adults, we all do this. Uh, we have our ego come out in social media because we want likes. And I always have to remind them that doesn't mean uh you're accepted or people like you. It's just what they stopped and and you know, hit. And half the time people are seeing things, but they're not necessarily liking something. So it doesn't mean that because they didn't like it, they don't believe in you or accept you. So I think it's important to know that you nailed it. Ego is who you think you are. It's not necessarily your actual identity. It tests what you think you can do, it will test what you stand for. And most people's ego is operating in protective mode. So it's literally keeping you from fears or embarrassment because that's its job. But honestly, we don't want you to live in a constant state of insecurity. We always joke over here and say your ego is not your amigo because honestly, the toughest competition is not your competitors. Most of the time, it's your ego. It's that voice in your head saying, You can't do this. You're not as good as them. What are you thinking? Who do you think you are? It's the things that you worry about, it's the bad habits that you believe you can't fix. And your ego tells you that if you mess up, you'll be judged. Okay. And then, oh, you guys have to do it perfectly. And that's honestly who you need to work against. That's who you need to be. I know a lot of um swimmers and coaches listen to your podcast, and that's who you're racing. And we will often say as a coach, because I was a swim coach for years before I got into private practice, that you don't want to necessarily race the person next to you because if you've never beat them before, you're going to say, Oh, I don't know if I can beat them, or oh man, I don't like how I'm seated. Because your ego always wants you to be seen as the best, the most successful. And so it's the part of you that loves to hear, well, I'm good and I've got to protect that. But here's the tricky thing: your ego is pretty damn sensitive. And so it freaks out when it thinks you might not be perfect. And it makes you worry about what other people think. And so that's why athletes will hold back, they will play it safe, they will work so flipping hard to avoid mistakes. Because honestly, they're like, I gotta protect that image. I got to protect how people see me. And I think when we talk about ego in the realm of sports, you're constantly being protected because you're so focused on not messing up. And when we look at swimming in particular, we're so focused on I didn't make an interval, so I must not be good enough, or I don't know if I can be in this lane because I'm the slowest one in this lane. And you're literally like playing not to lose versus playing to win when you look at things from your ego. Your ego is always obsessed with like approval. And so that's why we hold back. That's what makes us compete cautiously, because in reality, you can probably push the pace, you can probably go faster than you think you can, and you end up competing to protect your image instead of like going all in, taking risk, because we put this like shield up. And yes, it keeps you safe. It blocks out criticism, but the shield blocks out your growth. So I think it's important that people understand like how your ego actually affects like how you compete. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I think you that you got to the you really got to the point of it right there at the end, which is yeah, okay, it's protective, but it also blocks growth. And so like the side effect is is in most cases not worth the benefit you get, right, in terms of um protection. But most people, like unconsciously, you just it's very easy to end up in that protective mode. And I I even think back to uh when I was when I was uh studying in the positive psychology program. I mean, one of the things I think you and I are roughly of a of a similar age. Um, I know I came of age in uh a time when there was like a self-esteem movement, you know, like we we decided that like self-esteem was going to be tied to the outcomes that people had later in life. So if we could only make kids have a better self-image of themselves, then we could solve so many problems. Um and I think that the way that that panned out is almost we became culturally like so protective of people's self-image. And we started, we started treating everybody's self-image like a like a fragile little vase, you know, and so it actually in many cases had the opposite effect of what we wanted it to have. This this focus on um self-image actually ended up manifesting itself in a lot of people that all of a sudden realize more than ever realized, oh my gosh, you know, like my my self-image is really valuable and I should work really hard to protect it, rather than being sort of less self-conscious about it. And as you said, like being willing to just put yourself out there and hey, like if I fail, that's life, it's no big deal. There's there's nothing to protect in that sense. So I think that there has been definitely a big perception shift over time with ego. And sometimes I feel like, you know, uh a big part of my job is like undoing that just embedded sort of cultural training around it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I think the key here, because we have to do that all day long. We're like, your ego isn't actually you, it's just a reaction. It's what you've told yourself over and over again. But when you actually stop competing for approval and you compete for yourself, you can absolutely override that ego. Just because you've said things for years and years and years, you can change it. When you go to the pool, your job is to go all in and not to be so reserved on worrying about other people's opinions. And then you have more energy that goes into your own performance. And I know I'm trying to simplify it so that people can understand it, but there is a process and there is a framework to understand how to get that voice that's like, what will they think, you know, to actually learn from mistakes. And we teach our athletes how to detach from the ego so that they can be more present, so they can love their sport. And, you know, when you detach from your results and you know that your worth isn't based on whatever accomplishment you had, whatever award you won, whatever record you set. And you actually can decide what you believe because, you know, at the end of the day, thoughts are gonna come and go. You've all heard the phrase thoughts aren't facts. You're the thinker of your thoughts. And we can do better at selecting them and then directing them and then repeating them. And so we like to teach a framework where athletes can actually override that automatic messaging that they've relied on for years, because honestly, your ego is only a problem if you let it flip and run the show. If you decide that I'm not going to believe everything that I think, then you have the opportunity to win the battle in your mind. And, you know, there's a lot of tools that are involved in learning how to quiet the ego, but you can train that sucker and that makes a huge difference and not just accept, oh, I'm just a person that's not patient. Oh, I'm just a person that's not good at standing up for myself. Like once you decide that that doesn't have to be who I am, that's just a label that maybe I've carried, you can defeat it.
SPEAKER_02Right. Those aren't traits of who I am. Those are just conditional. Right now, I don't do a good job standing up for myself, right? Versus I'm not a person who stands up for myself. Those are, those are, you know, um, there, there's a big distinction there. I give you one example that I I heard you say that I I just want to get in a little even deeper in because it's it goes like again, swimming audience, um make this practical for people. Um, you know, I was uh talking to a group of of coaches yesterday, and one of the things we were talking about is just like some daily goal setting, right? Um, and even like meet-to-meat goal setting. I think people don't necessarily formalize these processes. And I said one of the dangers of that is if you have an athlete on your team, like they come into a meet, right, and maybe before it they have a sense of like if I swim this fast, I will consider it good or whatever, right? They've they've they've set some kind of bar. If you don't formalize it, their their ego will delete and replace with something in the in an instant after the race, you know. It before the beat, it might have been 145 and the two free was good enough, but now they've gone 144 and the person they expected to beat went 143 and now it's bad. Right? Now it's bad. And instead of just taking the the step to actually have a conversation, and by the way, if you if you engage people to get their thoughts out of their head, um, because you know it's very easy for this stuff to sound reasonable when you're only in dialogue with yourself, right? Your your egotistical, like automatic thoughts without anybody else hearing them, without them said out loud or even written down somewhere, they're like, you're like, oh yeah, I'm being totally rational. Yeah, yeah, totally makes sense. Um, you know, like I do have to defend my position versus, you know, X or Y teammate on my squad, but pushing them out into the open, all of a sudden people go, oh, it's actually pretty egotistical to use another um definition of the word for me to like make my part of whether I decide whether this was good, you know, based on somebody else's performance, right? Once that's pushed out and more or less declared, it it becomes a lot easier to contest, I think.
SPEAKER_00Sure. I think you you have to challenge your your thought patterns and not just necessarily accept that, right? You you have to take accountability. We're hardwired to be skeptical. That's your ego. It's protecting us. Your brain has one job, it's to keep you safe. But you can counteract that. And you don't have to accept that it's always true. And your environment doesn't have to determine how successful you are, because you're right, a certain time is not necessarily quote unquote good for the 200 free when you know you are capable of more. I get that. But you're also then kind of taking on a victim mindset. You've got to participate in how I label things, how I choose to take from every race. If I didn't go a PR, what did I still get from it? Were my underwaters better? Were my uh breakouts better? Did I have a quicker reaction time? Did I pace myself better? Because you're the author of the story. And if you challenge your ego in this way, you will live more intentionally and then you will not be always frustrated with the goals and the accomplishments that maybe you came up short on. Because, you know, the goal isn't to always meet the goal. The goal is who I become along the way. And like you were you were talking about how people think what they should do. You know, your ego is gonna say, Do you deserve that? Like you should be farther along than you are. And we literally should ourselves to death. I should be faster. I should be on that relay. I should be recruited by now. I should weigh this much, I should have gone that time. And I'm always like, hold on a second. As a swimmer, there are certain times when you are shaved and rusted and tapered. You are not always gonna drop in every meet. And when you get hung up on that, then you're pissed after a race that you didn't drop in. But if you're dropping in every meet that's a dual meet or, you know, high school meets along the way, their, you know, buildup, I'm like, you ain't working hard enough in practice, son. Like then, then you're not doing what you need to do to get better. Because what I want people to realize is zero success will make you more worthy of who you are now. You know what I mean? Like we live in, you know, comparison and so we're always like chasing stuff. And we can't only be proud of ourselves when we go a best time or when we get recruited or when we're finally anchoring on the A relay. Like your ego makes up these like external situations that we think, well, once I achieve that, then I will be pleased, or then I will be more confident. And you've got to really switch your identity to override the ego of like, by the way, is a lie to yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yes. It does of course like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I just I just think kids forget that.
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SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, I want to switch bases and ask you about another thing that I I see you talking about semi-regularly, and that is confrontation. Um I I I think I know your answer to this question. I've and I've been uh I'm thinking back to my journalism days where I was told don't ask yes or no questions. So I'm gonna ask a yes or no question, then I'm gonna follow up quickly and give you a little bit more to say. But like confrontation, would you agree that is it's hard for most people?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I think people like to tell you that, oh, I don't have a hard time with that. But in reality, when they're faced with it, it's a totally different response than what they feel like they like actually handle it. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00They want to think they're better at it than they are.
SPEAKER_02Because for the most part, people like we did reference somebody who would say, like, oh, I'm not very good at standing up for myself. But for the most part, people don't want to admit that, right? They they they want to think like I am the hero of my story. I, you know, I always stand up for what's right. I, you know, if X bad thing happened, I would be on the right side, you know, fighting the righteous battle for for what is just and fair. Um so in your coaching, like what are some situations you run into with somebody who's just like tying themselves in knots rather than just being willing to like set up a productive confrontation with anybody, right? Anybody else in their orbit. Maybe it's their parents, you have a teen, you know, maybe it's their coach, maybe it's another teammate that they have, and they're just kind of turtling up and you know, hoping that the need for confrontation somehow um, you know, evaporates on its own, but it's but it's there. And how do you respond to that?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so I think the first thing that people probably need to understand is is why we have this like internal struggle. Um, athletes are often conditioned to keep the peace. And they never really want to stir up like team dynamics because, well, if I make them mad, I have to go see them at practice every day. Because we hear advice in society that's like, well, you choose who you hang out with, you choose who you're friends with. But when you're on a Team, you have to see these people every day whether you like it or not. And so they don't want to handle confrontation because they feel like, well, I'm still gonna have to see them and interact with them. But in reality, if you're not letting your ego run the show, you can train, just like anything that you train in, you know, physically, how I approach situations or like when I choose to do something about them. So I'm gonna kind of say it like this. If your ego is always looking to protect you, it craves approval, it hates criticism, it literally wants you to avoid situations where it feels like you're gonna uh be judged. Okay. Then in a confrontational moment, you know, your ego's like, don't do that. Oh, you might get embarrassed, or you know what, you might get rejected, or they're not gonna talk to you anymore. But if I back down every time, then I don't get taken very seriously. And then I start to feel less confident. I'm actually more frustrated with myself. And so you want to kind of look at your ego as like, am I letting it always win? Because your ego is really like this like overprotective friend. You know, we've all had one. We're like they mean well, but they tend to exaggerate. And so your job is maybe to keep you safe, but at the same time, decide whether safe is actually holding you back because we're all gonna have a different interpretation of what we can handle. And so we teach a lot of courage over comfort, but you've got to practice it before you need it because a lot of athletes will then say, like we said, oh, I just don't know if it's worth the battle. And I'll say, okay, well, standing your standing up for yourself is a skill, but you have to develop that skill. And then drills lead to skills, just like you do drills, whether it's fingertip drag, whether it's um catch up, whatever, and swimming, right? We teach drills over in our spart psychology land like PMR and tapping and escape room and alter ego and all of these drills lead to the skill of confidence and having more authority or having more assertiveness and not taking things so personally. Because confidence is a skill. It can be developed. You're not born with it. But what I want to, you know, bring up, because a lot of people will be like, okay, so pick and choose my battles, but how do I know which one to pick? Your ego isn't always bad, okay? Because it's obviously going to signal to you when it's maybe, you know, not worth the battle. So let's just say your coach is having a bad day, your teammates having a bad day, and they make a snarky comment, okay? Sometimes I want you to look at it and go, you know what? Let's just let that one pass. Because honestly, the majority of people will overreact and they'll be like, why are you being such an ass? or whatever they'll say. But as an emotionally skilled athlete, as an athlete that has developed the skills for how they handle uh stress, confrontation, um, you know, people pushing their buttons, then you're gonna maybe go, you know what, that person just got done with a really ugly race. My response is I'm just gonna leave it alone. And and choosing a response that is better than a reaction still counts. But, you know, here's here's the catch though, because that's it's always like a two-way street. If you always back down, then you train yourself that, ooh, I don't do good at confrontation. Oh, it's not worth it. And so I kind of tell people when you're kind of deciding on how to choose, do I say something or do I let it go? Because sometimes um letting it go is just better for the situation. But base it off of your values. Like if it really affects your boundaries or your values, then I say stand up for yourself. But if you're so going, okay, well, that person's just having a tough day, then you know what? That's not a me problem, that's a them problem. And I'm gonna step away. And I think it's important to train when you're gonna stand your ground and when you're like, oh, nope, that's non-negotiable. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I think you can definitely, right? The there is a good piece to that instinct, you know, that you don't want to be in there just mixing it up with everybody else on every little thing, right? That's that's not that's antisocial behavior. Um, and uh I wouldn't advise that for anybody, but I think you you what I really want to highlight in what you're saying, because it resonates with me, is that you know, there's a there's a skill to be practiced here. I mean, I find myself quite often in my coaching. Um, because I am a coach, you know, more or less like just walking an athlete through, okay, so like you're gonna go talk to this other, you're gonna go talk to your coach very many times, right? It's something with their coach. We're gonna go talk to your coach. We're gonna practice it. You and me. We'll practice it here. Doesn't matter what I think, because I'm not your coach, right? But I I can probably do a reasonable job approximating um what's going into it. And I think something that holds people back quite often is they have a sense of, again, coming back to this social behavior, they have a sense that um they they can't hold on to their values and be confrontational, right? They they maybe think like, I'm a really, I'm a nice person, I'm really kind, like, and I'm I'm good to people around me. And you know, if I have to have this confrontation, I'm gonna have to be mean to that other person. And so I think just like teaching people the skill, that confrontation doesn't mean that you're going to be unkind to the people around you. And in many cases, even though it can be emotionally um wrought in the moment, it it is actually um it is actually a kind act in many cases in the long term to just get in on something um and stand up for, as you say, stand up for your values, stand for for what you're thinking. Um and and because it changes and actually is, I think in the short term, it yes, it can impact relationships in a negative way. In the long term, it's good, much better for your relationships with other people. Um, and if you're gonna have to, as you say, be on a team with people and you're gonna have to show up and see those people every day. Well, you want to invest some effort into the long term of that relationship versus, you know, okay, what's gonna make keep the peace today?
SPEAKER_00Sure. And I think the other thing is you mentioned it, but I I want to highlight it as well. Like practicing conversations, that's a thing that I do with my athletes. I know that's something that you do with your athletes before they're in that moment. Because if we don't ever practice it and then you are faced with it, that's why kids say things like, oh, I hate the 200 fly or oh, I hate the 500, because they don't swim it enough to get good at it. They don't swim it enough to override how their ego looks at it. Oh, that event is scary. Oh, I hate that event. And so when you label something, you've decided how it's gonna go. And the more you practice like respectful confrontation, but having kind of those conversations, that's what we do with our athletes, then it becomes easier to override it. So instead of seeing it as this, oh my God, I hate doing that. I just don't want to do it, I want to avoid it. And then, you know, honestly, that teaches you as an adult to push crap under the rug and not um deal with things and not learn how to compartmentalize. But every time you face confrontation with this like calm authority, you're building confidence in yourself, but you're also sending this signal to your ego that you don't need to protect yourself all the time. Because I will tell you, one of my favorite quotes is the strongest force and the human personality is the need to stay consistent with who you already think you are. And I'm gonna repeat that because it's a good one. The strongest force and the human personality is the need to stay consistent with who you already think you are. So if you think you're not good at standing up for yourself, or you think you're not good at being patient, maybe because someone called you a hothead one time, or you think you're a perfectionist, then you will continue to fulfill that role. And this is why people believe what they do for so long, and then your ego fights like hell to stay the same because it takes courage to change your beliefs. And unsuccessful people will find ways to stay the same and reinforce what they've already believed. And so you have to really intentionally practice the hard conversations. And I don't care how cheesy it sounds, no one has to know that's what you're doing, but we have to deliberately change what's not working for us. It's totally okay to be afraid of it. Like, that's a reasonable fear. It's okay to be intimidated by tough conversations or hard events that I mentioned earlier. But like, it's your responsibility to do something about it. And a lot of times people will come to us when they're hurting, like, just so bad, they're so anxious or they're um just so stressed because they're operating in crisis mode. And I'm like, oh man, I wish you would have been more proactive with like learning coping skills instead of only thinking, well, it's time to work with somebody in sports psych or positive psych once I'm in trouble. Because if you learn how to counteract those limiting beliefs of what you think you're good at or not good at, you can be so good in things outside of sports too. But honestly, most people just believe the thought that they've always had. And man, if I had that thought, oh my gosh, it must be true. And they'll just say, ah, well, I'm just not cut out for that. And then it's frustrating because so many people will settle for mediocrity. And so, you know, my advice is just don't wait until it gets so painful. If you let people help you figure out how to have hard conversations, you can get better at them and replace the belief of I'm just not good at that. Sorry, I went off on a tangent, but I needed to say the thing.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I look, listen, hallelujah. Listen, I want to get, I want like praise, do it. Okay.
SPEAKER_00I don't think it's an issue in our society that we don't like discuss why it becomes that way. People just think we have certain personality traits, and a lot of things are because we just keep reinforcing them.
SPEAKER_02The swim brief podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Are you tired of not competing at your best? I've worked with countless athletes who felt that their mind was limiting them on race day. As a pioneer in the field of positive psychology, I have a unique approach. Instead of fixing what's wrong, I help athletes build an entirely new framework from the ground up. And I do it in as little as 12 weeks. I teach them how to make their active mind something that helps them. The work that I do stays with athletes long after we finish. Those that work with me get permanent results that go beyond their sports career. They not only bust through their current plateau, but learn what to do when the next one comes. If you know an athlete that could benefit from a complete rebuild of their approach, fill out a contact form at Chrisdcoach.com. Let's find out what they're truly capable of. Back to the podcast. Yeah, and I I think you make a great point about being proactive versus reactive. Gosh, if I could get people, um, if anybody's listening to this and like, you know, you're thinking about doing something, working with somebody, but you're like, uh, you know, like, I don't know, maybe we'll see if this problem gets worse. Don't wait until it gets worse. Like, don't wait until you're in, as you described, um, crisis mode, because, you know, no matter what stage you're in, you can really benefit, I think, from some coaching. I know I have personally also really benefited from um coaching in this arena because, you know, it's like uh to explain it on uh uh coaching terms, it's like, do you want to wait till somebody blows out their shoulder, or do you want to fix that technique before you know tendinitis sets in? Like let's let's just fix the technique now. Yes. Like let's be proactive about it, right? We we don't want to wait and have uh, you know, uh shoulder surgery down the line. That's that's that's not a smart solution. Um, but I think it's it's yeah, an unfortunate uh, I guess, circumstance of just sort of the stage we are with. People are more aware of doing some work in this area. They're more aware, they're more open, I think, than they used to be. That's certainly a great development. Uh, but there's still more work to do to like get it to understand that this can actually be more or less like training, right? That you just ramp up, you know, and and put proactively in and before, you know, like waiting for there to necessarily be some big pressing problem.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Well, I want to say this. Um I'm sorry, I I totally just cut you off, but I just want to throw something in there because I find a lot of athletes have this well, you don't understand, Ash. My coach is just really tough. Or man, I'm just on this team and it's just really, really competitive. Or they're thinking that like their circumstances are harder than anyone else. And I'm not saying they're not hard, and I'm not trying to downplay them, but they think because whatever their environment is, or whatever situation that they were dealt with, or you know, talking about shoulder lips, you're injured. And so they think they're stuck, but you still can be proactive because I'll just use the example of like a tough conversation, but ask yourself, who do I want to be? Because it's not like, oh my gosh, my environment's so bad, I can't do anything about it. When you take ownership that you have the ability to change or become a person who can speak up without fear, or a person who is respected because they hold their boundary, or a person who doesn't rely on the approval of somebody else to feel confident, then you allow yourself to see that I can override this whole hesitate, play safe, hold back. And we come from a place a lot of times where uh we feel like our circumstances have to change before we can do something about it. And so the key is operating.
SPEAKER_01Set it the other way around.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. And and I always talk about like be do have psychology, which is the identity that you want first. We have to change our identity, and then that can create behavior change. Like, who am I? But what most people do is they operate from have do be, which is I have to have the ideal situation before they can become the person who can deal with confrontation, or I have to be hurting bad enough before I'm gonna seek out to a mental skills coach. So something like, well, once I have a better coach, or once I get better at fly, then I'll be satisfied, or then I will be more confident. So it's always this once I have this, then I'll be able to do this. And this type of person is so focused on the environment improving for them to be able to change. But if you operate from the be-do-have place, you choose who you are first. And what you do and what you want becomes more important. So I can choose to change what I say about myself. I can choose how I see myself. And then if you operate from a person who's already achieved that time or whatever it is that you're going after, whatever goal it is, then you actually get those things sooner. So I am this person. I choose to act as the type of person who's already achieved that goal. So maybe if you're dealing with conflict, I'm in a tough situation either way, but I get to choose how I view it. And then that becomes so much more empowering to be the type of person that does better at being assertive and owning your own space, even if it still feels uncomfortable. Because as you grow that skill, you realize that the real strength isn't protecting yourself all the time, but that's how you build confidence. And then if you're proactive as an athlete seeking out a coach that works on kind of your middle game instead of only the physical piece, then you start to realize I can handle adversity. So when I do have an injury, because I mean, we've all had them, then I won't break down. I won't just have this middle, oh my gosh, I'm screwed, I can't recover. Because you've decided I'm a person that can handle this. And then that's how you start to get better at challenging what you think you already are. Just my two cents.
SPEAKER_02And see, now you're talking about, no, I think it we maybe even got four or five cents there. Um, I think we got good value for our money. I mean, now you're talking about something that I think that that segues into the last topic that I want to discuss here. Because really what you're you're getting at there, I think when we look at sports, um, again, I like to challenge the things that I look out there culturally that just seem to be implicit, right? People just like act as if that's the case and without really like interrogating, like, is it really that? And I think as it relates to sports, and we've been talking about it basically this entire time, you can a lot of people sort of just end up unconsciously, implicitly buying into that the point of sports, right? The point of um investing all this time is the achievement, is the results, is whether or not you, you know, get to go on to do it in college or you get a scholarship and how well you do when you get there. And I don't know, I don't agree. I don't think that that is, I don't think that is the case. I don't think that is um uh uh beneficial to just implicitly sort of buy into because then you're in this very tenuous position. It's like you could, you know, if you all of a sudden the next day could not go out and compete in your sports, you know, your whole identity is destroyed versus actually being in a space where no, um sports is a place where I'm developing my identity of who I am, but I am many other things, and I'm going to do many other things in life. And the things that I'm doing here have relevance, right? That that persistence that you're pointing to in terms of an identity. This I remember this is one of the first experiences I had doing this work. I coached a girl, she was a high school senior swimmer, right? And and you know, like more or less, right? The the purpose of what we were doing was swimming. Um, at the end of our work, or maybe like a month or two afterwards, I don't know if it happened concurrently, she stopped swimming. She stopped competing in the sport of swimming. And I remember I felt kind of bad, you know, like even though I knew what I just said in my heart, I thought, like, oh gosh, I've failed because, you know, this girl doesn't want to swim anymore. And it was probably about a year later, she had um, she'd go, she went on an art scholarship to uh Brown University, and she wrote me a letter, which like anybody out there, keep writing letters. Letters are amazing. To get a real letter from a real person in 2024 is like one of the best pleasures in life. So I keep in this letter, and she's like, you know, Chris, I use what we work on every day when I go to present my art for critique. Like I use the same skills. And I was like, thank goodness. Like it was that, it was, it was um, it I came full circle on that. But I think it points to, um, and I and I get the sense from engaging with your con this is a shared value that you have as well. This stuff goes way beyond sports, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, got it so true. We we will teach a lot of skills that they, you know, will help them obviously be more aggressive, be calmer behind the block, push through um hard races. And that is why people will come to us maybe initially. But the thing is, we tell people whether we're teaching you forgiveness, whether we're teaching you uh grounding and how to bring down your anxiety, whether we're teaching you how to stand up for yourself, doesn't matter. Like we spend a lot of time on social skills or answering recruiting questions or how to obviously have tough conversations like we've already been talking about. We talk about peer pressure, we talk about um test anxiety, we talk about giving presentations with more authority, we talk about how to choose your friends and um, you know, like yes, you might come to me for help and how to race faster, but ultimately I want to make you a better human. I want you to realize when fears are winning in other areas of your life so that you can create better habits and have, you know, a balanced life. And sometimes we're talking. About studying routines. Sometimes we're talking about pre-performance routines behind the block. But ultimately, when you work with someone at a young age, you're also not undoing years of bad habits. So when adults come to us, it takes a little bit longer and they do get frustrated. I'm like, well, you've been doing this for 37 years. Did you think we were going to do it overnight? Because you know, that's our Amazon.
SPEAKER_02How quickly you've been expecting yourself to change.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we, and we have this culture of like, but I need instant. And what I do enjoy about teenagers is they are, they're not as maybe um like unsure if it's gonna work. They're still curious. They're like, okay, I I'm I want to know. I need help with this. And they're really good at being open to trying something new. And they don't have, you know, 47 years of doing it a different way, where they get the change or the better habits for other things in their life, relationships, school, eventually work a lot quicker. And so then they get excited about it. And then yes, they do keep doing that. You had a person write you a letter. I've received multiple letters. Man, that is the best thing ever. People, please keep doing that. And they come back and you're like, oh my God, I forgot. Them, or I, you know, didn't realize they would still remember that. And I actually had a um girl reach out who is applying to medical school and said, Hey, I'm using that stuff that we talked about for softball in in my applications and how I talked about myself and how I talk about my strengths. And I was like, yes, because you know, as a coach, when they remember things and they learn how to apply it in other areas, that's just the ultimate win for us. So yeah, of course it's important. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And ultimately, I mean, I think when you look at uh great coaches, they're looking to level people up. The performance is a side effect. That's what they do. They help people be better versions of themselves and then they happen to perform better. But it's not, it's not performance focused. It's it's people focused.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And well, what we've even learned too in psychology is when you're so focused on the outcome, you become obsessed with that. And it actually takes longer to get it because you think I have to have that to be uh, you know, accredited or powerful or good. And so when we step back and talk about focusing on the process and what is the process that you trust to get the goal that you want, then you actually get there much quicker anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Ashley, you've been amazing on this podcast. Where can I give you an opportunity to do all the plugs again? Uh so where should people go if uh they've just been listening to this podcast and they may go, man, I like her. Um, where can I get more?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, if you're if you're ready to learn the drills to create these skills to compete with the real enemy, that's probably your ego and not maybe the competition. Um, come see us at maximizethemind.com. Um, we offer one-on-one sessions, we do programs on demand, we have camps, we have team trainings, um, we try to offer a variety of things for different um financial backgrounds. We also have several freebies on our site. If you're just kind of like, I'm kind of more curious about what middle scales training is all about or maybe what sport psychology can do for you, just maximize the mind.com. That's where we're at.
SPEAKER_02Yep. And for me, um, you can go to chrisdcoach.com. I started blogging again, so that's a free resource that's available to anybody. Um, getting a lot of nice feedback on my blogs recently. So if you go to chrisdcoach.com slash blog, uh, you can read those. I upload weekly on that. We have this podcast as well. Bring on great coaches. We bring on people like Ashley. Um uh I offer one-on-one coaching for athletes, one-on-one coaching for coaches, and um coach training programs. So uh season-long coach training programs. And um, if you want to reach out regarding the podcast, you can email me at swimbriefpodcast at gmail.com. You can fill out a contact form at chrisdcoach.com. Um, and yes, unfortunately, you can also direct message me on Instagram if you must.
SPEAKER_00Um the other two. You know, don't suffer. Be willing to ask for help. I think just as a coach, as an athlete, as a parent, just ask for help because you know, we we are so good at hiring experts in certain fields, and then other fields we just think, oh, we're gonna toughen up and just do it ourselves, and that's just crazy pants.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Couldn't have said her better myself. Ashley, thank you so much. Thank you to everybody for listening, and I will uh see you again soon.