Hello, and welcome to the swim brief. I am Chris DeSantis, and today we have I think it's gotta be the first three-time Olympic coach to ever come onto the swim brief podcast, the head coach of swimming and diving at Stanford University, Greg Meehan. Greg, how are you? I'm doing great, Chris.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, and thanks for having me on. And I didn't cut off an Olympics there, right? No, it uh it's a little it froze for a second, but then you came back.
SPEAKER_01So Okay, okay, good, good, good, good. Uh you know, listen, um uh you have to earn it, uh, as we'll discuss here in a moment, to make it onto an Olympic staff. So I don't want to uh insult anybody by uh coming right off the gate uh with a wrong number there. Um we're we're talking just a a couple months, or I guess uh two, three months after the Paris Olympics. Uh you've had the experience of being on the coaching staff of each of the last three Olympic teams. And um obviously some pretty unique experiences in between. Uh I think you know, Tokyo is going to be one that is always gonna be sort of out there as just a very different experience, uh Olympic experience. But um I wonder if you can give some perspective on Paris versus some of the previous games uh you've gone to. Um and I want to ask it specifically of you as a coach, right? Because this is like a dream, right, for so many coaches. They want to put somebody on the Olympic team, they want to be on an Olympic coaching staff. Um, so you you uh it's rare you get to talk to somebody that has the experience of doing it even once. I want to get the perspective of how are you different from when you broke through and got to that level? And then what did you observe that was different about yourself when you were in Paris this summer?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a uh it's a pretty deep question, right? Um we only ask deep questions here, Greg. I certainly hope that I have evolved. Um it's uh it is to your point, like it's an amazing honor and privilege to be asked to be on uh a U.S. Olympic staff. It's an honor and a privilege to be asked to be on any uh US staff, whether it's uh World Championships or Pan Packs or whatever. So uh I've had the opportunity to be on a lot of those over the years, and um, each one is totally unique to itself. Uh as I think back to the Olympic Games specifically, unrelated to myself for a second, I think just completely different experiences. Uh, you know, we had uh uh in Olympic Games in 2016 that seems fairly normal, um, but also, you know, kind of bizarre in in other ways too, with um with the Olympic Village in Rio not necessarily being finished because uh, you know, the organizing committee ran out of money and and you know the the guys started putting cement down in the you know in the pipes in the building and just causing all kinds of problems. Uh we were drinking out of out of bottled water um you know the entire time to uh you know what we thought was going to be an amazing experience in Tokyo, um to having something totally different in you know, no fans and um you know, and spitting into a little a little test tube every day, uh making sure that you didn't have COVID. Um to now this this past experience, uh, which was amazing in terms of the uh the environment. I mean, people were fired up about uh having a normal Olympic Games and the arena, uh I'm sure in in large part because Leon and his uh you know the excitement about what was potentially gonna happen uh there was was pretty incredible. And so that building was just like bumping every day. And I've never been in a facility that's been that loud uh at any point in my career.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it was absolutely so it was it was more than trials, because I I think a lot of people would say that about trials.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was complete insanity, and it was so fun. I mean, you're just there when when he's racing, you just kind of get caught up in the moment of like, oh my gosh, and you look around. Uh you know, or when Flo came out for the final of the 50 and he's doing, you know, he's doing this and the crowd going all just like going bananas. So uh that was really fun, and that made it a uh kind of again like a bit more of a normal Olympic experience, um, albeit with challenges that everyone's been you know pretty vocal about. Um as it relates to myself, I I think the core of of who I was in 2016 and who I am now is is pretty similar. Um but I yeah, I think I I I hope that I've evolved just in terms of um taking each experience, not just Olympic experience, but taking each experience and learning how to be better. Um and so I you know I've had the privilege of working with pretty incredible athletes uh at each of those games, not just uh our Stanford women, but also having the you know the privilege and responsibility of coaching athletes that don't have their coach on staff. Um and so it's just been really fun and learning from from them uh as well. And so, you know, just trying to each time be better, and and be better can really mean a lot of different things. Um But I think the one like core thing that that I like has stayed true is just having a plan and following through on that plan. And the plan can be different, um, but I'm I like to be organized and have a vision of what I want it to look like, and so following through on that. Um, because I think in a lot of ways that helps uh take some pressure off the athletes as well. Um, and so that plan of like lead up to trials, and then that time in between trials and the games is something I feel really comfortable with. And um, and not every plan's been the same, but it's like get a plan in place, stick with it. You adjust as needed, but it's a lot easier to adjust off a pretty organized plan than um adjust off no plan. And that that's just what works for me. So that's those are things that I think have been really important for me professionally to help kind of that group, or in this the case of this summer, to help Tori go from you know point A to point B.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I want to talk about the planning aspect of it because this is something that I've heard before, and I've heard it also in relation to your colleague on those Olympic staffs, um, Dave Durden, your former coworker. Dave Durden, people say, you know, Dave also is somebody who gets really into the planning of like leading somebody onto making the team, and then that time period in between making the team and being at the games. And I think, you know, part of why I asked the question in the first place is when you're making a plan for the Olympics in 2016, you don't necessarily know what is going to happen on the other end, right? You don't have that experience. So maybe you could give us a few examples of stuff that you changed in planning off the back of that experience. Because I think that's a very relatable for coaches. Um, I said this in the outline that I sent to you. Like, you know, one of the things we all have in common is whatever the highest level meat we are coaching athletes up to, we don't get a lot of experience at that level, right? And and so it's really important that we do make those adjustments in terms of planning because that's what helps us to grow and evolve and and helps the athletes to grow and evolve. So, what kind of stuff did you change in terms of planning with that experience in your back pocket?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I will say it in fairness, to take it one quad earlier, I was uh fortunate enough to be in London. I was there with um, we had a couple of international guys when I was at Cal. And so I was in London representing Estonia. Um and oh, so you got a little extra experience ahead of time. Yeah, and it wasn't the same because I wasn't on Team USA, and um, but I was around them. I kind of was just watching and paying attention, and then um Nathan, Adrian, and Tony Irvin had made the team that summer. Um, and so I was kind of there as well, just if they needed some things. Um, and so I I kind of saw that lead up, especially for for Nathan, um, you know, how Dave kind of programmed that out from the the sea, you know, kind of the years leading in, trials, you know, the the camp. I wasn't at the camp, but still kind of involved in a lot of that communication, and then at the games itself. So I did at least from uh you know, kind of maybe a 5,000 foot view, got to see it, uh, which I think really helped me. And that was part of why I wanted to go, because I was hoping at some point that I'd have the opportunity to go with Team USA and uh and just be able to get that experience. So that was kind of critical, just to see it. Because you know, the the Olympics um I I would imagine, well, it was for me, the first time I went, you're just kind of like, you know, what is happening? You're in this place where all these amazing athletes and uh the environment, there's everybody's just so excited uh to represent their country on the on the biggest stage. And so uh, you know, seeing that was helpful because then when I was on staff in Rio, I at least had some sense of what an Olympic Games was like. Um that said, I wasn't, you know, this time now, I was really responsible for a group of athletes. Um, but I think one of like it's not super specific, but um we just have to always try to like thread the needle a little bit at trials. Um, and you can't you can't always do this, but with with certain athletes that are in a position to make the team uh not somewhat confidently, but you know, you gotta sense that like there are some people who are who are more likely to make the team than others, yes.
SPEAKER_01We can we can accept that.
SPEAKER_00Like Maya Dorado in 2016 was it kind of felt like, all right, you know, it's not gonna be easy, but I feel like she's gonna make the team in the four I am, two I am, and two back, uh just with the way that things had kind of been playing out. And so giving her rest to be good at trials, um, and in a lot of ways trying to give rest to manage the stress, because I think that's a thing that that maybe is unaccounted for when you're thinking about preparation to a meet, um, especially a qualifying meet. Um, so trying to give some rest to kind of manage that part of it, uh, but knowing, you know, there's a lot more rest in the back pocket that you can give between those two points. And so it was like just really trying to thread the needle, and then it was okay, coming out of a trials. This is the part that I had to learn in the moment. It was like everybody wants a piece of Olympians when they make the Olympic team. You know, the hometown wants to do a parade and the media and the news station and all this stuff. And so, like, okay, you get one day to do all this stuff, and then we're we're back to work because making the team wasn't the goal. You know, going and and performing is the goal. Uh, so kind of took that approach and then sorry, my my lights go off here uh in my office. So look good. Yeah, thanks. Uh, and then being able to like back to work, use the energy and excitement of the camp with Team USA. Like, that's the other thing that I had anticipated, but I didn't realize how powerful that was. Like, that is the that's the magic, man. That is like when you get those people together, training and the and the excitement of representing Team USA, and it's amazing how quickly everybody can come together. Um, you use that to like get some really good work done, and then like rest. Uh, and and that's the part that I remember I was at the National Team Coaches Seminar, I think that following April, uh in Colorado Springs, and I had put up the plan that I had had for Simone and and uh Leah Neil and Maya, and um people I just were like I think really surprised at how little Maya was doing at the end, uh, given that you know the 400 im was the first day of the meet. And it's like, yeah, but it's it's the end of the year and it's the end of the quad. Like, there's so much work done that as long as you do work after trials for a bit, like then you can really start to rest. And it's not that she didn't do anything, we're still going fast, but like that holistic rest and just really uh just trusting that, I think it is something that worked really well. And then I have since like taken that with me. Um, you know, as you fast forward to Paris, I can remember a conversation with with Tori in Croatia, and she felt like she was really arrested for trials. And I was like, well, yes, and like, no, you still have a lot more like to be able to come off of. And um, and and that's where like this was our first time going through something like that, and just being able to talk through that, like this is all part of the plan. And um, you know, coming then through like time in Paris on the ground, just like that, that rest coming down and down and down. And she doesn't like to, you know, some athletes don't like rest. Uh makes them nervous. Um, but she she bought into that and uh, you know, and then just kind of did her thing once the once the games got going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I have a theory about, I mean, I think that athletes that don't like rest, uh particularly a lot of them that are, you know, they're they're typically your kid that is extremely dedicated, really hardworking. Um, a lot of them, you know, training hard is a part of their stress management. Like coming to practice and just wailing on that practice is part of how they metabolize stress on a daily basis. And that can put you in a really challenging situation as a coach, and we're gonna talk about Torres a second, and maybe this will be a part of it, is it put you in a really challenging situation as a coach because you know that they need to rest to perform at their best, right? You can't just you can't just keep uh going full bore right through it, but um you have to have some way for them to metabolize or deal with some of that stress that they that they have so that it they don't basically have this antagonistic relationship with stress. And I mean, I I think I speak for everybody when uh I say that this next part of the conversation should be really fun because Tori was phenomenal at the Olympics. Like she was basically on fire in every race, as far as like from a fan's perspective, just lighting it up. So, I mean, when you look back at it as a coach and and maybe vis-a-vis even some of the things we've just been discussing, what do you reflect on? Because it's the fun reflection, right? Sometimes you have to do the reflection, go like, oh shoot, what went wrong? This is the reflection where you go, what did we do right? Like what went well so that I can replicate that again in the future.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I've I've shared this a little bit uh publicly. Just I it all kind of goes back to the uh basically 14 months ago, 15 months ago at um World Championships. Uh you Tori had had a really great freshman year, freshman um summer. She won the Hunter Fly at Worlds, and that was kind of her first big international win. Um, and had gone a best time in the Hunter Free, and then um you know, really great NCAs for sophomore year, and just like overextended herself the the spring of her her sophomore year in terms of school, and and just by the time she got the trial, she was tired. So by the time she got to the worlds, it was like, yeah, she was totally out of gas. Um and unlike you know, some that maybe would panic in that moment, it was like that's not a reflection of of how good you are or where you are in this particular moment. It's just like, hey, this this happens, right? Swimming is not a true linear progression. Uh there are ebbs and flows to everything. And so um it we had I had already put a plan in place for that next year because she was taking off from school. So she was redshirting, but she was gonna stay here at Stanford and train with her teammates. Um, and one of those plans included going to the World Cup stops, uh, the first two, which was I think uh Berlin and and uh Athens. And so I had gone with her in Berlin um and just like she needed to get back on the horse and like just race again and like move on from the summer because the longer that lingered, the worse it was gonna be. And so um she had taken just a little bit of time off of uh Worlds and then kind of got back to work pretty quickly, had a good August. Uh, she kind of came here, you know, kind of mid to late August, and then um September, and we went to the World Cup meet, maybe in October, and she was as fast or faster in a lot of cases, most of her races, she was faster than she was at like the uh uh pro swim meet in Mission Viejo, which was maybe in April or May. And so it was a good sign of like, okay, she just like we've moved on, we're back to doing the right things. Um, but I think there were just like a couple of key pieces to it. Um from a non-swimming training perspective, uh, was the what we did in the weight room. And um, you know, she's she's her frame can only handle so much, um, but felt like she needed to try and make some strength gains uh to be able to um you know really compete at the level that she wanted to. And you you look at some of the people in that field with Gretchen and Yu Faye, and I mean just really strong athletes. And um Tori has a lot of natural strength, but we were trying to develop some additional strength. So she did a couple of hypertrophy phases in the weight room, which I think really helped um just just get a little bit stronger. Uh and those came, like they took a while, you know, to kind of make those gains, but I do think they were really helpful. Um, and then we just continued to race a lot uh and a lot of events. I I this may have come up on your podcast with uh my club coach Charlie Kennedy. I can't remember what, but I had I listened to it at some point, but like the idea of um racing a lot. And so when she went to the World Cup, I mean she raced 50 fly, 100 fly, 50 free, 100-free, 2 im, hunter back, uh, went to the US Open, did the 2 IM, 50 free double, you know, did the Hunter fly, did the Hunter free, went to Knoxville and did two fly, two breast, uh Hunter back, you know, a couple uh 200 free, like just racing. You have to race because when you get to those nine-day meets, unless you're a kind of a distance specialist, like you're gonna have just a 400 IM or maybe just a 400 free, you're racing a lot, you know, and those 200 races on down, you're you've got prelims, semifinals, finals, and that's just in one event. And so, like knowing that, okay, if things went well, she was gonna have a lot of racing at the games. Like, just go race and stop overcomplicating things and over investing in a time on a scoreboard in January. Um, and so she just got confidence from racing, and we went to Westmont and she swam faster again, and then we went to San Antonio, and at that point she had gone 55 um in the hunter fly at San Antonio. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, and and and 53 and 209 or 20, yeah, whatever she was in the IM, and she was really good. Um, and so there was just kind of uh an inevitability to her swimming fast at trials uh and the Olympics. It was just a matter of how fast this. And so we just like I those are things. The what went right was you know the stuff out of the water training wise, um, just racing a lot. I just like I I think uh nationally we maybe need to go back to the idea of just racing more and racing other than your primary events. Um and I think this quick sidebar, but in Olympic years, that gets exacerbated because naturally kids are gonna chase cuts, right? And that's like I get that part. Um, like you know, if you're trying to make trials for the first time and your best events, the 100 breaststroke, like you're gonna do the 100 breast every time. Um, and maybe not do other races because it might negatively impact your opportunity to make trials. So I I get that part, but I just think in general, racing more um and being okay with racing some different things. Um, because then when you get to meets, like you just you have a lot of racing, whether it's uh you know, NCSAs or a winter juniors or an NCAA championships or you know, a summer meet, like with relays and everything else, you're gonna be busy. And so race experience is important. So that was a that was a big key. Um, and then there were some technical things that we that we worked on in both her fly and her free uh her underwaters. We had done some real good tracking on um uh Russell Mark is uh consultant for us, so he had helped with some tracking on uh some underwater times and um and making some adjustments, even from the semifinals in Paris to the finals and the 100 free, like just her depth off the turn. I was looking at the data that he sent, and um just like it wasn't making sense for as good as she is underwater. And so we went kind of back to the drawing board a little bit, had a conversation, changed some things the the morning of the 100 free final, like just hey, let's let's do a couple of turns, let's think about this, and then sure enough, she just like smoked her turn in the race and and won a silver medal. So uh all those things are the fun lookbacks. Um, and you know, at the end of the day, too, like she just she loves to race, she's really competitive, um, and she's really adaptable. Like, you know, she you give her something new outside of like trying to, you know, the hyper face in the water or in the weight room. But like you give her stuff in the water, you tell her once, she makes the change. I mean, she has a really cool uh like her kinesthetic awareness is is pretty off the chart. So um, those were all the fun things, and um, yeah, she had an amazing meeting.
SPEAKER_01The swim brief podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Are you tired of not competing at your best? I've worked with countless athletes who felt that their mind was limiting them on race day. As a pioneer in the field of positive psychology, I have a unique approach. Instead of fixing what's wrong, I help athletes build an entirely new framework from the ground up. And I do it in as little as 12 weeks. I teach them how to make their active mind something that helps them. The work that I do stays with athletes long after we finish. Those that work with me get permanent results that go beyond their sports career. They not only bust through their current plateau, but learn what to do when the next one comes. If you know an athlete that could benefit from a complete rebuild of their approach, fill out a contact form at Christdcoach.com. Let's find out what they're truly capable of. Back to the podcast. Yeah, I think I I I you probably didn't even just hear it in the Charlie Kenny podcast. I've been harping on something that you said there because I think it's a really big insight from this summer. You look at the people that were very successful, one of the things that they have in common is that they raced a broad diversity of events. And the way that I look at it is you're right that I think a lot of people are making a calculation like, okay, if I had a swimmer and you told me that like tomorrow is the last day to qualify for the meet, well, all I would have them swim would be the one event that they're closest in qualifying. And that, in a, in a short-term view, that gives you the best chance. But in the long term, it it causes problems for you developmentally to just keep, no matter what level you're at, to just keep racing the same thing over and over and over again. First off, psychologically, at a certain point it becomes impossible to just race the same thing every single time. Um I think from the perspective of measuring, one of the reasons you race at at any given time is you want to measure where you are, you want to see where you are. Well, if you keep racing the same race over time, you may actually get much more skewed data, right? And I think people reach a point where they're like, oh, I, you know, I'm I was slower in my 100 breasts than I was last meet, so something must be wrong in my training. Whereas if you just race the 200 free also at the same meet, you would see, oh no, actually I'm progressing, I'm in better shape than I was last time. I just didn't have a good 100 breast at this meet, you know, like and um so people missed on that opportunity. And I guess I want to use this as a way to pivot to to the second part of this conversation because um, you know, you coach a team that it's a college team that's I would guess trying trying to win a national title in any given year, right? You have a lot of talented people on your team, and you have a lot of people that, you know, maybe part of their path to Stanford has a bit has been about like, can I specialize and show you know an amazing level in three or four events so that I can be recruited at the collegiate level? Um and I I I want to ask sort of more about the challenge of having a lot of swimmers on a team that are potentially up at that Olympic level. Because as I look at it now, um, you know, there's there's been this evolution, it maybe even it's been going on forever, but you know, if I look at like the last decade, right, uh, or decade plus, now I'm I'm dating myself a little bit, but like Missy Franklin goes to Cal, and then it felt like every single, you know, top flight recruit for a period of time was going to Cal. And oh my gosh, Cal is so amazing. How's anyone ever gonna beat Cal? Um, and then you get things going at Stanford, right? Things get to the level where Simone's there, Katie Ledecki's there, many other really high-level athletes come there. You mentioned um Maya as well. And it just seems like, oh my gosh, Stanford's gonna be a steamroller, right? Now it looks like UVA is a little bit of the steamroller in Division I men's, sorry, women's swimming. Um they may be getting something going in men's as well. But um I think every I well, the reason I'll get to the question finally. The reason why I ask you about this is right, probably a lot of coaches from where they're sitting are if if they let their ego take hold a little bit, they're looking at you and they're going like, oh man, if I had you know all those talented kids on that team, you just did a great eye roll for people who are listening. They just chuckled the perfect vase. You know, they're they're they're going, oh man, if I had all those kids, like, you know, I could do X and Y and Z. Right. But what's the flip side of it? What are the biggest challenges of not just having maybe one or two athletes who have Olympic aspirations, but having a team full of athletes who are either have legitimate aspirations or are pretty close to that level?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's uh I mean I last year was maybe the easiest year of coaching I've ever had. It was, I think, the most fun year of coaching I've ever had. Uh and that was with the still with the, you know, kind of the uh call the enormity of pressure of wanting Tori to do what she ended up doing. Um but we only had 18 people uh on our college team, and uh and then Tori was redshirting, so we had like 19 people in the water every day, which was uh pretty pretty good life. Um and so, you know, then some of the harder years is when we've had bigger teams, but I it's uh it's all it's like some of the other stuff that comes with having superstars. And it's there, it's not bad things, it's just there are some uh time-consuming things that you know are you just have to get done to be able to help them uh do what they want to do. And you're managing uh touch points with everybody and you know, wanting to make sure that everyone's feeling like they're getting what they need, um, which gets harder when you have more and more superstars.
SPEAKER_01But can I ask you about an I ask you about an aspect of that? Because one of the observations I've had, I mean, just in my own career, I've never coached a U.S. Olympian, but if I look back at the best athletes that I've coached, one characteristic they just had, and and I think you're right to say it's not a bad thing. Sometimes it it can be framed as such, they're very demanding. Yeah, like the better somebody is, one of the reasons they get to that level is they're good at going, hey coach, I I I need your help. Come over here and come work on, yep, work with me on this thing that I know is gonna make me better, you know. But most of us don't have a pool full of people who are like, Coach, look at me, look at me, look at me. You know, like it's like it's like your kids, you didn't realize 90% of raising kids was gonna be your kid going, like, dad, look at this. You know, like but like you have a team full of people who are like, look at what I'm doing, observe what I'm doing, help me right now, because I I'm I'm working on this.
SPEAKER_00100%. And I I think you know, all there's uh for most elite athletes in any sport, there is a like they need to be selfish at times, right?
SPEAKER_01And I I say self-centered.
SPEAKER_00I think self-centered. Self-centered is good. Um I think the one difference here, like when we still had superstars uh or multiple superstars, we have superstars now, but we had multiple superstars. Um culturally, when when Katie is one of your best athletes who isn't very demanding, of course you're like demanding on yourself. Um I gotta do this right. Yeah. But she's not over there every, you know, every 350s being like, hey, can you look at this? Um it was more like in the conversations afterwards, just checking in and and just trying to really stay in tune with with how she was doing. So I think when you have some people like that, and and Tori's like that now, I mean, she doesn't really she'll ask questions, of course, but it's like she relies on the group a lot. Um, and so I think that when you have that culturally, it it helps. Um, you know, in in some cases it it's better when there are multiples because they recognize that they're not the only one. And it's like, okay, let's let's all work together. Um, but it's not, yeah, it's not easy. And uh obviously too, like the margin for improvement is real small, you know, for athletes that have gotten to a certain point in their career. And so um, you know, I would say in in my experience, it's it's been an easier path to get from you know point A to point B for some, and much harder than when that point A to point B is like a 1% uh you know improvements, that's the yeah, those are hard because you're just trying to find the things. Uh, but getting back to our topic right before this, the more versatile they are, the easier it is to find the things to get that one percent. The the I mean, we I just feel like we've been really good here with people that are pretty versatile, you know, the Ellis Eastons of the world, the Katie Draybots, the Maya Dorados, the Torre Haas, like just people that can come in and do pretty much any number of events, and they can train middle distance, they can train sprint, they can train like just those people tend to do well in our in our program. And so um, I I do think it's helpful if someone comes in being pretty versatile to then try and find that small margin of improvement, which is, you know, just not easy.
SPEAKER_01Right. Because you know, if you're yeah, again, I mean, I don't want to, I I do want to harp on the point, but if you're improving globally, right, you're not always then then you give yourself opportunities to see that improvement in different areas versus forcing it through like a tiny little aperture, it's hard enough, right? I think that's what you're saying. It's hard enough to find that 1% improvement in in one event. You know, if if if it's five events, if it's eight events, well, you know, your likelihood goes up. And by the way, you also reach a point of diminishing returns where no matter like you not even diminishing returns, but you can focus too much on training for the hunter butterfly, to which it becomes counterproductive to your ability to do a good hunter butterfly. And you're better off, you know, like doing some cross-training, doing some other things. As you said, go into the weight room and work on hypertrophy. Like she's not training for a bodybuilding show, right? But but it ends up having it ends up that is a a sort of green pasture for improvement versus just like thinking out very specifically um in the lines of of one event.
SPEAKER_00Um, which is why I think, you know, as it relates to her, you know, her her improvement in the hunter fly was was minimal uh this year, but her improvement in the hunter-free was significant, right? I think that improvement in the hunter-free is more indicative of how much better she is at swimming right now than she was a year ago, because she went from 52.9 to 52.2, you know, and then was whatever 51.8 on the on her split on the relay. Um, versus the hunter fly was about winning, trying to win, like wanting to win a gold medal.
SPEAKER_01And so you're saying she has an even better 100 fly in her.
SPEAKER_00I I I think so. Yeah, and I think she would say that too. Um, in the moment, like we don't really care, right? It's right. It's gold at the Olympics. Yeah, yeah. And then people always ask, like, uh, I got asked the question the other day, what you know, world record or uh Olympic gold. Olympic gold every day of the week, right? Because that's right, it's once every four years. Um, but you know, and for her, I do think that her hunter fly is better. Um and she also kind of got better in a lot of ways as the meet went on, too. So I would have been curious to see what it what it would look like at the end of the meet. But um, yeah, it's just staying diversified, staying just like really improving in in more than one thing. Um, and in the hunter free, it was just like, hey, I'm out here in lane one and I'm swimming really well, so let's see what happens. And you know, goes that really great time and and gets a silver medal. Uh in the Hunter Fly, it was like a very specific, you know, Gretchen, Yufei, Maggie, Tori. It's like four people for three medals, you know, what's it, what's it gonna be? Um and knowing where she was in Tokyo and wanting to or yeah, and wanting to, you know, not have that same experience. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, I want to ask you about another aspect of uh Stanford, and uh I will phrase the question in a way where I I know I have more latitude to say some things than than you do because I don't exist within the system. But I I'll just share an observation with you, and you you you don't need to uh say anything bad about anybody else. You could just um talk positively about the place where you are. But my observation as I look at the NCAA landscape is, and I'm concerned about it, as somebody who loves the sport of swimming. I think that I have seen things trending in a way towards it more of like a win at all costs. And I mean that in the sense of, you know, losing the student athlete piece a little bit of the sport of swimming. I think that's something I've always been super proud of that like, you know, for the most part, we have a sport where um there's there's maybe a handful of people who can legitimately make a bunch of money as pro swimmers, everybody else, right? And and then that's a relatively short period of time. So you've got to figure out something after that. So people, you know, we have a lot of like lawyers and doctors and uh people who go into the professional world, um, and they're very serious about what they're doing at school. And I think Stanford is a place from the outside looking in, I think, that is that is bucking that trend, that is, that is really trying to hold on to that, to say, like, look, we're we're we are gonna be the the bastion of student athlete with with student first. Um, and I guess where I want to come to as a question with that is right, you're a competitive guy. I mean, you you don't get to be on three Olympic staffs without being like, I want to win. Right. So how do you, in the situation you're in, turn that into, okay, this is not going to be a a limitation on our competitiveness. This is actually gonna be an asset for us.
SPEAKER_00How do you lean into that? That's a great question. Um, and things are changing very quickly. That that's the other piece of it too. Yeah, for sure. I mean, literally, it's it's it's kind of uh news cycle by news cycle, just trying to keep up and see what's happening. And for us, I I appreciate that your perspective. I would, you know, internally, I would agree with that. We we want to continue to be the place for we we use the phrase scholar athletes, um, and and and really like the true Olympic sports model, because I do think that's what Stanford's been known for for a long time, right? It it's amazing academics, but also success in Olympic sports. Water polos, swimming, track and field, tennis, soccer, like you, you know, you look at the World Cup rosters, you look at uh Olympic rosters and water polo, you look at track and field medalists, you look at swimming, right? This is a place where you you can pursue both. And it's um not not to go back to Maya as an as an example again, but you know she's a great example. She is a great example. She, you know, incredibly bright, um, won a couple of of NCAA events her senior year in 2014, and it kind of had to like talk her into swimming two more years because she was she had never had any visions of uh post NCAA life. It was like she was ready for the next thing. Um and so getting better and realizing like, okay, I you know, I guess that I'm pretty good at this, and like there's uh it's just two years. I think if it were four years, there's there's no way she would have continued to go. Um, but there were two years, and just like, okay, this is the why. Um and then just making sure that she always felt like it was in her control to make the decision, yes or no. And I do think that uh like she and I had a really good you know conversations on that. Um and and we're still super close, I think, because of that. Um and so, but you know, she wins uh in Rio, does great. She wins two golds, silver and a bronze, and just like mic drops, and she's out of there. And people couldn't wrap their head around it. I mean, they were like going mad because here's this 20. I think she was still 23 because she was very young. She graduated at 21, almost 20. Um so it was she was 23 and at the top of her game. Like, why wouldn't you keep swimming? That's crazy. Uh but she did, and she was like, and never looked back. And I agreed with that decision. I don't think that that it would have ended as well. And it's sometimes you just like you take the wins when you can get them. Um, but that's a good example, and that's why we've we've never had a big pro group here. It's just not gonna be our thing. Our only pros over the years have been women that have graduated from Stanford and want to continue on, like for Katie and Simone. Um, but we also knew they wouldn't be here forever. And we kind of knew that like at some point, you know, you you like this place is is centered on the the collegiate athlete experience and maybe young pros. Um, but then there's there's other places that are gonna be a better fit when you get to be 25, 26, 27 years old. Right. And I think like where Katie is now, where Simone is now, like that's the the place for them. Um and so I just I love that this is who we've always been about because those people still wanted to come here and and get the Stanford educational experience. To me, it's not just about the the degree. I mean, the degree carries a lot of weight, but it's like it's how academics are structured here. It is a little bit different. Um, and so they wanted that. They wanted to be on teams that were competing for national championships. They felt like we were gonna be able to help them achieve their their goals of of winning um international competitions, and they've done that. So, you know, I think they they were able to do all of that, and now they're shifting into a different phase of their career. Um, and for us, it's you know, we're always kind of in that like 18 to 23, maybe 24-year-old. That's kind of our sweet spot. Um and uh I love that like this place is what it is, and um and yeah, and it's not a it's definitely not a strike against anybody else, but it is like we're grounded in the student athlete experience um of really wanting to, and not that not the student athlete experience, like hey, do it do anything you want, but the student athlete experience. Like they love school, they want to be great in swimming. I mean, we have uh uh you know, we have three women on the U.S. national team this year, and one of them's a senior, and I don't think she has you know very strong plans of of swimming beyond uh this season when she wraps up NCAAs, which again is not the norm, but she's excited about the next thing in her life. And so um, yeah, I love that that's kind of our our deal, that's our culture here.
SPEAKER_01The swim brief podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Being a coach is isolating. You know that saying that it's lonely at the top? Well, for many coaches, that's reality. Being a coach means everyone has an opinion on what you're doing. It takes work to filter out the noise and make the best decisions. You need to be able to think through plans, ideas, and problems proactively. At Chris DeSantis Coaching, I fill that gap for coaches. I'll help you turn every rocky moment into a slingshot and provide the support you need to be at your best. You deserve to have someone in your corner, and everyone on your team will benefit. If you want an expert to have your back in your coaching career, go to Chris Dcoach.com right now and fill out a contact form. You'll get an hour of my time at no cost to you. You don't have to go it alone any longer. Back to the podcast. Yeah, I mean, you're you're you're feeding catnip with uh with uh a Maya Dorado story. Um she's actually my wife's favorite Olympic swimmer. Um, you know, because my wife comes from outside of the sport of swimming. And, you know, so she's always just like watching the Olympics over my shoulder. My wife's a woman who three and a half years Hopkins graduated. You know, she graduated early when she was 21 years old with a degree in neuroscience, like just got out, you know, started doing research at the NIH. And so when she heard Maya's story, she was like, that's that's like that's who I love to watch. Um, and so we've always had a soft spot uh for for Maya in the in the DeSantis household. Um pivoting to family, I want to ask you about this stuff at the end. I mean, this is this is where it actually gets kind of personal for me. Um, because I have to be honest, like one of the reasons why I'm not coaching a team day to day is I think I ended up in a trap that a lot of coaches find themselves in. So this is why I want to ask you what I'm about to ask you. And that is, you know, it's it's coaching any team. It can be very demanding. And you, and if you have a family, uh if you're lucky enough to to get married and and have wonderful children, um, you can end up in a situation where you know, you're at work and you're like, oh man, I'm missing out on this thing that's going on at home. I mean, you had to have in in eight straight or maybe even more than that years of trying to prepare people for an Olympic game, you must have had conflicts between stuff that was going on in your home life and you know, like a training camp in in Colorado Springs, or yeah, we got to go on an Olympic training camp. Sorry, I can't be there for that. And and you so you fight this feeling of right, you're at work thinking about the stuff that you're missing at home. Then you're at home thinking about, uh, like I should be doing X, Y, and Z to put, you know, our team over the top this year or help this athlete or this, that, the other thing. So I want to get advice from somebody who um has dealt with that at the highest level. Uh what do you do with those kind of situations? What what is I guess where do you set the boundaries? How do you set yourself up for success in that?
SPEAKER_00Uh I I think just recognizing, like from the outset, recognizing that it's not going to be perfect and perfectionism is never something that anyone should chase. Um and just recognizing that it is there are going to be moments when all of that happens and and it's okay. You know, and if you have uh people in your life that support you through that, it makes it a lot easier. I mean, and I'm not doing it uh I'm not doing it great all the time, uh, but I am I am working on it and trying to be as good as I can. Uh and the bottom line is my wife is super supportive of what I do and the the hopeful impact that it has on the lives of of young people that decide to come to school here. And my kids have kind of always gotten it. And so you just you you just have conversations, right? And and try to Okay, so let me ask you that.
SPEAKER_01Did you did you intentionally have a conversation with your wife at some point to go like, hey, look, I I want to try to be an Olympic coach, and this is what I think it's going to involve.
SPEAKER_00It's more the organic conversations about it. Right. You know, I think it's not like an intentional sit-down, but it's just when it comes up to just talk about it and um yeah, normalize conversation on being away. And it doesn't mean that you have to like it. And uh, you know, I can remember being in in Croatia in maybe 2017 or something, and I'm like watching my son's uh baseball game like on a on a web on a webcam, you know. But um you you figure out a way to to make it work because to your point, and I think this is the the biggest challenge, is if you allow yourself, you will you will constantly feel guilty. You will feel guilty at home, you will feel guilty at work. And it's like, you know, as a as an Irish Italian Catholic, like, trust me, I know guilt. You have enough guilt already to deal with. And so like you have to be okay with all of it. And so it's just like bringing them into it. I also think like trying to separate the world isn't very good either. Um you know, trying to have my wife around and involved, and we have the team over to the house quite a bit. And like for the kids to come to meets, they they forever and ever went to NCAs. They they can't now because they're usually too busy with their own stuff. Uh, but when they were younger, they came every year because I wanted them to see why it was important to me so that they could better understand why I'm not there for every basketball game. But if I can be, then I am. Um, you know, when they were little and it was like Halloween, I'd be like, I'm not coming in this afternoon, folks. I'm gonna go home and you know, take kids out and do trick-or-treating, like whatever that may be. Um, I think the other part of the communicate, the other end of the communication spectrum is having that conversation with your team and making it okay for you not to be there every single minute of every day. And like I right now, I'm not coaching on Wednesday afternoons this fall. And I I just know that I didn't I didn't pace myself very well coming out of Tokyo um into a three-year quad. And I paid the price at the end of that year. I was just exhausted uh physically, emotionally, you know, and and we were obviously working through some things at that point too. And so uh in in an effort to avoid that, I had just sent a note out to the team uh it was kind of maybe right before we got back, just kind of outlying like, hey, I I've been gone for 50 out of the last 57 days, and I need you to understand that, right? Like those those aren't those are real numbers, right? When you're when you're gone from home for 50 out of 57 days and you're basically emotionally redlining the whole time between trials and the games, like that that stretch, we were only home for a week from when I left for Indy to when I returned for Paris. And so just sharing that with the team so that they understand, and then they like they don't care that I'm not there. It's great. Right. You know, where if you don't communicate it very well, then maybe it's it becomes a well, why aren't you here? It's like, no, just very simply, here's why I'm not coming in. Because I need to, I need to just kind of ease myself back in. I'm still gonna be here eight of the nine workouts, and I'm in the office plenty. And if you need me, I'm here, and I'm gonna take these little things uh for myself so that I'm not you know overdoing it too early in the beginning of you know a four-year quad. Um, and just having yeah, having honest conversations about that.
SPEAKER_01I think you made such a good point in there about, you know, I would came at this question with the idea of boundaries, but I think the point that you made about bringing things together, I I I think that's so valuable for so many people. And I and I'll give you for the audience, like I'll just get a little deeper into why I think that's a really big insight. I think that, you know, so like let's say you have a spouse at home and you're coaching day-to-day, that person's going to hear all your frustrations at work, right? That's that's part of the job, right? So if you come home from practice and you go like, oh, like I was dealing with this situation, with this athlete, this situation. But if that's all they know about the people on the other end, right, it's very hard for them to have empathy and like see that there's a human being on the other end. They don't see the whole picture that you're seeing. They're seeing the frustration, right? And as somebody who cares about you, it can actually form like an antagonistic relationship between your spouse and the people that you're working with, whereas you you have the whole picture, okay, sometimes it's frustrating, but we have these great successes. Like you're seeing all of that. But when you bring them into your environment, they go like they they meet those people and they go, oh, there's a real person on the other end. And and it changes their perspective, right? It actually makes, I think, um makes it easier for people on the outside of whatever you're doing professionally as a coach to support you in what you're doing. If they can actually see, like, hey, you know, here's Greg on the pool deck, or here's, you know, here are the athletes, here are the real people that he works with every day. And isn't it so amazing what he's doing? I mean, you know, I don't think that all the time, but like they they do get a flavor of that when they actually see people on the other end.
SPEAKER_00A hundred percent. And that, yeah, that's you you have to, if you try too hard to have boundaries or separate, then it everything gets complicated. Uh I was we had a guy come in and talk to our athletics department maybe 10 years ago, and uh one of his points was like, there's this constant need for work-life balance. And he's like, that's just crap. Like, it's not work-life balance. He he described it as work-life harmony, and that for one reason or another just really resonated with me. It's like you're you're harmonizing these two things together. You're not trying to have a 50-50 balance all the time, you'll just drive yourself insane. And so it's it's more that like, yeah, have some have some harmony. Be okay that some days it's gonna be here, some days it's gonna be here, and just let people in. Um, and so that's that's always been my approach, and it's I feel like it's been helpful. Um, now we're getting to the other side of it. Um, you know, we're almost empty nesters, and so it's just gonna be uh Tess and I. And so, you know, in a lot of ways, like she'll be even more involved because I, you know, travel with us to to more meets and and yeah, you guys will have the opportunity to to do more things um in that respect.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, it's uh uh you're you're you're ahead of me in that respect. Um uh I you you talk about the person who came to speak to you, and I I actually love that analogy because work-life balance does, you know, imply a certain level of antagonism between the two, like it's like they're competing with each other, right? Versus like, oh, maybe these two things could could could work uh in harmony. I wonder what else, like what other resources do you use to keep yourself mentally healthy? Like who who do you call when you're having a bad day? Who do you look to for advice? Because I think, you know, when I look out at the landscape, that just having other people that you can rely on in a tough situation, probably the most important uh thing you can have. So so who do you lean on?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um a lot of people. And it's uh it's to sometimes it's for specific mental health work, and sometimes it's just uh talk through and connect with with people. Um obviously I I worked with with Dave Durden for four years, and so he's someone that I still talk with quite a bit. But uh even though you guys are competitors now, right? You're back to being competitors. Yeah, he's absolutely like a very dear friend. Carol Capitani has become uh really close friends. Uh Yuri Sugiyama, someone we we were exchanging messages this morning. We talk probably every couple weeks, and it's just awesome. And we don't talk about like uh, you know, how to how to have better mental health. It's more just like we're just chatting about uh what we do and exchanging ideas and all of those things. And that's kind of the one of the things about going on these trips too, because I've gotten to I've gotten to know Todd DeSorbo really well and Chris Plum and Anthony Nestin. Like these guys are awesome. And so being able to spend time with with other people too, um it's just critical. Uh, but then I also I've been on a lot of trips with Sean McCann, who's sports psychologist for the US OPC. And I talked with Sean a lot over the years about all different kinds of stuff. Um and so those are those are people. Um and then, you know, trying not to trying not to bring work home with me too much, even though, you know, I talked about like bringing it in and having you know the team be around my family and vice versa. I also I I don't talk about something when I when I get home. Uh my wife wants to talk about it sometimes more than I do. But you know, just like really trying to uh to separate out. Um because that's the one time where uh yeah, it's like I just I want to just unwind from the day. Um and so it because this you know this, Chris, like coaching is not a profession. Like coaching is a passion. It's like it's just the hooks are in us pretty deep. And it's hard to uh to think otherwise. And so uh it has so much of us that we have to, yeah, we we need some of that balance. Um, you know, and then it's like okay, what do you what uh what do you do for a routine? Whether it's okay, I like to work out every day or or go for a run or you know, I like to play golf or um play pickleball with with my wife, or um, you know, I get home, we we always have a glass of wine at night. And like that's those are little like routines and rituals that I think are really helpful to you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Any other hobbies? That that was my that was my final place to go.
SPEAKER_00When I was a little young, I used to love playing bat. I used to be a like a you know Sunday morning hoops group. Uh yeah, you age out of basketball, the knees age you out, don't they? I mean right, you just can't do it anymore. So um I'm really trying to go all in on golf and um I love it. Uh I love the competitive, like the internal, like just battle with with yourself on you know, wanting to get better at it. Um and it's taken me to some really cool spots. I went to Scotland uh at the end of August, so came back from Paris, was home for a few weeks, and then um went to Scotland for uh seven days and played like all the classic courses. It was a a group of 20 guys and like things like that are really fun and can't do them very often because they're super expensive. But um just trying to have something. I had we had had that trip planned for two and a half years. So like it's those kinds of things that um that we look forward to as well that yeah, keep me pretty, pretty excited.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's great. I mean, I again I I think it speaks to another level of you know, some of the things we've been talking about here, the even the planning aspect of it, like that's part of planning too, is like I'm gonna have I'm gonna give myself a golf vacation after all of this, you know, all of this is done. So that because if you wait, right, you never would have planned that like at the last minute. You would have just been like gotten home from Paris and just sort of fallen into a heap and then rolled your way into another season without having this other experience, right? So I I think that that there's something to that as well. Um we're we've just rounded the hour mark. You've been incredibly giving with your time. I really appreciate you being willing to come on here. Um, and I think you're such a great sport uh for being willing to do that and uh answer all my questions, even my my deep and and personal questions as we've been going through this. Um I think it's gonna be a great one for our audience. Uh I hope you guys really all enjoy listening to this. If if you want to uh give a question, give a comment, uh, suggest a guest for the swim brief podcast, you can go to swimbriefpodcast at gmail.com. You can go to my website, chrisdcoach.com, fill out a contact form. And regrettably, I am also on social media, so you can go to Instagram, Chris D underscore coach, and send me a message there. Although you can tell which one of those methods I prefer that you use. Um, just by the way I said it. Greg, thank you so, so much for being willing to do this. Yeah, this was really fun. Thank you. Thank you everybody for listening. Yeah, and uh, I'll see you guys again soon.