Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I'm Chris DeSantis, and I am just tickled. I'm tickled, I'm chuckling my way into starting this podcast to be joined by the head coach of swimming and diving at Drexel University, Nathan Lavery. Nathan, how are you?
SPEAKER_01I'm good, Chris. Thank you very much for having me on, and uh I appreciate the word tickled. Yeah, I haven't used that one to introduce anybody. That's my main name.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, you know, I I want to get into some questions with you. I want to talk about a place we used to work. I want to talk, you know, some of the landscape of just what's going on in college swimming and swimming in in general. Um and I don't want to get too bogged down in this, but uh I do think like you've got a fairly unique life story of coming to be a college swim coach. It's definitely different than mine, so I find myself interested in it. Um so if you could, for the audience, in two to three minutes, you know, distill the voyage you've been on from becoming a swimming athlete and now being a Division I college head coach.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so kind of it kind of starts with being South African, I guess, and not um not being American. Not that that's a bad thing, I'm very proudly American as well these days. But yeah, it you know, I grew up in South Africa, um, played multiple sports all the way through school. Swimming happened to be one of them. It happened to be what I was um getting the furthest ahead in, I guess, versus some of my other sports. And uh then I chose to take a break from it for a while, actually, and um did service and then came back to it, spent a year in Pretoria um training in Pretoria, South Africa, which is not my hometown. I moved out at 18 and I went to get trained for it, trying to get back into swimming and managed to do that. Um South Africa a handful of times, nothing. I didn't get to world champs or Olympics, which is a whole different story for another day. Uh but uh then after trying to make a run at a world champs and a few things being being off, I landed up deciding, oh screw it, I'm gonna come to South, I'm gonna try to go to America and see see if that's a good fit. And uh yeah, I went to Texas AM very proudly. I'm an old AG, um, former student. Loved it. Uh I I tell people all the time, like, if if you're interested in AM and AM seems to fit you, then go there. Um, I don't think it's for everybody. I think if it doesn't fit you like a glove, it's maybe not the best call for you. But if it fits you well, which it did for me, especially at that period of my life, you can't find a better place. Um, so I went there, had a blast, uh swam for Jay Holmes and Doug Boyd for four years, and they recently, well, Jay recently retired, and Steve was around, Steve Baldwin was around, and um, somewhere around that time period, I swam a uh a Texas Pro Series, the C the Senior Circuit thing. And I'd always had a decent relationship with Eddie uh over at Texas, and uh he came over. This must have been after my sophomore year, and he came over and we've just I said, Hey Eddie, how you doing? And he he asked me how that, you know, he said he asked for 100 breast stroke, which he did, he seemed to never miss a swap now, man. Right. And uh he sees all. Yeah, Eddie sees all. And that's why you realize Eddie stands back a lot, right, and watches a lot. Um he's not as outgoing as people think sometimes. And we chatted, and uh the most casual comment he just said, you know, have you ever thought about coaching? And I said, No, because what sophomore in college, you know, I wasn't thinking about them. And coming from South Africa, I'd never thought of it as a career to pursue. Uh, a lot of the South African coaches, I feel bad from that. I wish there was a bit more structure for them. They own their clubs, the amount of people in the pool in front of them is their paycheck, and that causes a lot of conflict of interest. And then on top of it, you know, there's no like, oh, here's your healthcare provided by the club or anything like that. You're you're figuring it out on your own. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you you were looking at that model and you were like, I'm not gonna be a swim coach, like that. Right. That's not like a life for me.
SPEAKER_01And he said, Well, you know, I think the way you talk about your races when I when I talk to Eddie, I think you should think about it. And I thought, oh, okay, well, Eddie's saying it, probably just some Right. If he said that to me, I'd be like, Yeah, okay, okay. Right. Very fortunate that that he said it. I'm sure, I'm sure part of it was him being common. But either way, it made an impact. And um, then the next year, my junior year, I tore a muscle in the back of my left knee. I was injured for a little bit, and I reached out to mostly Rorik Fink, who at the time was the um head coach at Tucson Ford Aquatics in Tucson, which was very attached. That club was very attached to the University of Arizona at the time, which was South Africa Central, right? Right, loads of South Africans in it. And so, you know, I had a couple of options and places to couch surf and and stay and stuff. And I wasn't, I was trying to get my knee re-hab, and I thought, okay, I'll go out to Tucson for the summer. I was taking an online class, and I thought, right, this could be a way to try to figure out if I like coaching. And I asked if I could just volunteer on the deck for the summer that was going towards 09 world champs. They had Marcus Titus, things like that, going around, which was fun. So I went out there and hung out for the summer and coached the club and a little bit with the university and uh not as much with the Wildcats, a little bit here and there, and Leone Foster at the time, and loved it. I just enjoyed, I enjoyed it for reasons that had nothing to do with swimming performance, to be perfectly honest. Um, and I thought, okay, I I like this.
SPEAKER_02What did you initially like about it, coaching? Like what struck you like right away? You you you come out there, you're volunteering, and you go, hey, might this might be for me.
SPEAKER_01Right. Probably a combination. I mean, those of people who've been around Rorik knows that you know that Rorick's a he's a really nice guy. Like you there's a few people that don't like Rorik, right? I mean, it's just hard not to like Rorick, right? That goes a long way when you step into an environment for the first time. The environment he's creating is allowing you to feel like, hey, this is this is something that's kind of neat and and and he's always listening. And then on top of that, just there was two kids in the program at the time, and and I don't I don't want to I haven't asked them if I can tell this story, so I'm gonna leave them nameless for a minute. And uh I remember saying to one of them, they were talking about school, and I mentioned something about a book, and they'll ended up reading a little bit, and I suddenly realized and the story for me, and I I think we might talk about this a bit later because you had mentioned you want to talk about the coaching side, but you know, I I don't think any coaches are changing the world. Um, but at the same time, that that story that I think everybody knows where it's like the staff, like you've got all these starfish on the on the on the ship on the shore, somebody's throwing them back in the water one by one, somebody says, Well, what are you doing? You're wasting your time, right? And the guy says, Well, to that to that one, it made a difference. And it felt like that. To that, to that one kid, it made it, that that little moment made a difference, right? And I'm I'm a big believer in I I think if anything, forget something for a minute. I I preach education. I think education is probably priority number one uh in terms of the lens that I look at life through. So a teenager who listened to me and read a book.
SPEAKER_02You were like, this is so cool. You were such a dork that you were like, this is really cool. I told the kid about a book, and oh I mean, I get it. I get it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. See, I can see this as a perfect segue. This totally makes sense now. Again, it it brings a broader picture to me into why you enjoyed coaching at Georgia Tech. And that's something we have in common. You and I, we uh I invited myself into Philadelphia. We had a uh a lobster role in Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia a couple of years ago, and we bonded over our previous uh coaching engagements in Georgia Tech. And I I want to talk about that not so much, it's not even gonna be that specific to Georgia Tech, but it's something that we both have a little bit of knowledge about. I think Courtney left that head coaching position uh in in August. It seems that they've rolled into another season with the diving coach John Ames as uh as their interim head coach, but it's almost sort of poised to be kind of the first thing in the job market, right? In the next cycle, right? And I guess I want to talk about it from the perspective of I think it's a good launching point for having a conversation about first what it takes to be successful in an environment, okay? And you you gotta know something about an environment to know what it takes to be successful in an environment, right? So maybe that'd be a good starting point for us. What it takes, you know, what kind of coach is gonna be able to see the opportunities that are there? So I'm just gonna pose this very open-ended question for you, and we're gonna get the conversation started, and then then we'll take it from there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I think there's two things that are really interesting about that. And you're right, it's gonna be the first big powerful job that's gonna be open once once the new once the carousel starts spinning again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Courtney did leave it late. I don't know if that's you know, I know there's been a lot of talk about that. I'm like, look, people come to different decisions at different times. You can't assume anything there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you don't often make a career decision at a convenient time for a coach.
SPEAKER_03I I'm I'm a little shocked.
SPEAKER_02I want I do want to interject. I I think I made a blog post once about like when is the convenient window for a coach to leave a job. And I think it's like a one week, like there's like a one week a year where it's considered convenient. Otherwise, it's like like you know, you you you're leaving the swimmers in the lurch on one end or another, like everybody's freaking out. Like that there's no way to leave at a good time. Now, this may be less convenient. Someone's still gonna find a way to be upset, but someone's gonna be like, something happened in my life, now you can't do it. Right, that was my week. Like, so I'm with you there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it's I think one of the things with coaching is to go down that segue is yeah, it's I think we need to open our minds up about coaches leaving jobs. Not that I look, sometimes people stay in jobs way too little, and I agree with that point. I think people should stay at least a decent amount of time. But it's hard, it's hard for a coach to leave a program. I think people think these coaches are people just jumping around. I'm like, I've never left a place and felt like 100% great about it. I I don't like doing it. No. But you realize like it's just a scale, and when the scale tips the right way, then you make that choice, right? And I think we need to just be more open-minded about, I mean, personally, it's an opinion, but I think ripping the band-aid off and getting it done when the scale tips is better than waiting around. We've seen far too many coaches, you know, they're in the winter of their career or they're past when they probably should have called it because they don't like doing it anymore, whatever it is. And they hang out, and it does nothing but affects the athletes on some level, um, whether they cover it up well or not. I I think one foot in, one foot out, coaching, it's a well-known fact, right? Coaching's not a job, it's a lifestyle.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that's poignant to me. I overstayed my welcome at Georgia Tech by a whole year. Like I did.
SPEAKER_01And I think you would agree. Would it be better just rip the band-aid? Absolutely. You sit there thinking, oh, but we've got the season starting, and coaches do that, and it's like, dude, you're not helping the athletes. Like, and that's that's the lens, right? Like everything's that's why we're here. They are why we're here. So if that's what's best for them, that's what we do.
SPEAKER_02But back to get back to Georgia Tech. What what's it gonna take?
SPEAKER_01For them, I think that the the really interesting thing is you've got two layers now. With house, I think powerful jobs should be looked at. If I was an athletic department, my opinion, should be looked at a little differently. Okay. I think in the past it's been if you're gonna be a department that's compete, compete, compete, compete, compete, um, that's fine. If you're gonna fully fund your program, you know, all 30 scholarships both sides, and they're not gonna be a lot of places that do that, from what I'm understanding, or at least what what we're all hearing. Yeah, go out and find that insanely competitive coach and then figure out the rest, right? Um the guy that's gonna drive forward and be your your football, your head football coach. Does the head football coach really care about the school in and out? A lot of them don't. They're there to win football games, right? I think we need a shift, and that's been happening a little bit in power force swimming, and that's fine. But I think post-house, if you're not gonna go fully fine and be that team, I think as an edit department, you might want to talk about whether or not the coach you're hiring aligns with the school. I think it's an it's an opportunity to get back to guys that might be there 20, 25, 30 years, right? That do a good job, have ups and downs, can impart this to their athletes, and you're very happy with because it's stable. And hopefully, over time, if they're building something, you find more success in an organic way rather than a paying-a-paycheck type way. Because you're gonna have to give that person time to try to build a culture that's going to allow that success to happen if you're not gonna rely on scholarships to get you there. Yeah. So, you know, alignment with the school and the department now, but especially the school, I think, because if you align with the school, you probably align with the athletes that are going to that school. And the department kind of has to align with the school on some level. So I think there's a there's a very interesting extra layer that's about to come into this that I'm curious how departments go about doing that. For Georgia Tech in particular, I remember us talking about it. It's it's it's it's a unique place. The workload for that for the students is consistently amongst the highest in the country. I I mean I've seen ratings for workload, and I think just before I got onto the campus there, they'd been ranked number one in workload in the country for like 10 years straight.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, school is hard. Like there is no there is no coasting your way through Georgia Tech.
SPEAKER_01I I met a vice president of a company during one of the alumni get togethers, and I was chatting to him, and I said, you know, you know, he's just talking telling me about himself, right? We were getting to learn. And um he goes, Yeah, my four years at Georgia Tech were the hardest. Out of this vice president of a Fortune 500 company. I'm like, right, all right, like that that kind of sums this up. I think it's good and it's bad.
SPEAKER_02It's a saying, it's a saying among people, they don't say that they graduated, they say they survived. Yeah, they get out.
SPEAKER_01Um and I think that's good, I think it's a good thing. I think challenging young people to something that they're clearly capable of, because they are finishing and doing it. I think that's great. I think challenging a young person to succeed in a difficult environment or being challenged is is really, really good. Um, as long as it's supported in the right way. I think there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's everything we should be striving for as humans to begin with. So that's your first challenge, is is a coach that's going to understand that and work with that. Right. Like you just said, like it was kind of dorky that I that I did a book and a teacher to read a book, and I was excited. Right. Yeah. Um I enjoyed my time there basically because that is the type of athlete you're you're you're interacting with. I love my time here. I've got an engineer, I've got an incredibly intelligent team that are all doing very different majors because it is more of a uh uh not to say STEM, but more of an ambitious based school. And I love that. I uh it's far more about life to me than it is about about just the swimming. The swimming is a vehicle to to to try to help with the rest. So I think for tech in particular, um that's that's something they're gonna need to really, really think about. What about you? What do you think about it?
SPEAKER_02Well well, yeah, I mean I I I find myself leaning in a similar direction because I think the point that you make is I have seen, especially in this pre-house environment, and this this is probably something that we talked about a bit as well, is that I felt like college swimming in general was trending more towards trying to emulate revenue sports, not necessarily in terms of making revenue, but in the sort of like we're gonna be solely focused on winning. That is gonna be cutthroat, win or lose. Cutthroat, like we must win. Yeah, and I I mean, whatever. Somebody can listen to this and go, hey Chris, you're a non-competitive weenie. And if if you say that, um I might do my one, my first swear. No, I'm gonna I'm gonna resist. You can F off, okay? I'm very competitive, but I just like the fact and and have a little bit of perspective that there's there are places that are not win at all costs. Like that that like I love, I was talking to my wife yesterday, uh, she's training for a 50K. She never even run a marathon, she's gonna run a 50K. And and she was she was she was uh you know sharing that the Boston Marathon just upped their um qualifying times, you know, there's like a the the the the the running.
SPEAKER_01It's famously quite a hard one to get to, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Famously, I think the hardest one to get to, right? And I said, I love that there's some still some place, right, where the standard is just super high, you cannot be casual, and they keep raising the bark, right? I love that about the school of Georgia Tech. I I look at it though, and I think it's a mistake to have every place be, okay, well, we're gonna be win at all costs, and and they're they're trending away from the fact that like what something that I like about swimming, which is that we have a lot of athletes that they they swim for four years and then they go become a vice president of a Fortune 500 company. They go out into the world and they do amazing things. Like you said, like we're coaches, we're not necessarily people who are world changers, but guess what? We we coach world changers. Yeah, like we we do coach world changers, and that's something I like about this profession. So I guess where I would come from it is I agree with you at Georgia Tech. Like I think I think it needs somebody who's gonna be really happy to be creative about how to be competitive in that environment and not try to emulate, like, not try to do a poor imitation of one of the ten schools that is going to just go and put every resource they possibly can.
SPEAKER_01It's gonna require its own path. And that's why I said like a long-term building of a culture, uh, a slow, a slow build of a winning culture over time, I think is because you're right, they're not gonna be able to, at least I as far as we're aware right now, they're probably not gonna open the checkbook and go to 3030 and go after it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And and I and I think it's important to notice because I I know very I knew I knew very little. I don't know what you knew before you got there, but I knew very little when I applied for the job. I just had this perception, like, oh my gosh, like they had had quite a nice successful run within the ACC and at the national level in the few years uh before I got there. They had the 1996 Olympic pool. Like, I was like, this is the place where there's gonna be unlimited resources. Wrong. Okay. Wrong. That was very wrong that I that I thought that, but that's what I thought. And I I do think there's probably, I just want to guess, like, people out there looking at it that are gonna be naive and think they're not fully funded.
SPEAKER_01They're not under the old rules. Never mind the new rules, they're not fully funded. They were not. Yeah. They were not. People look at the pool and they think it's gotta be fully funded. It's like, no, it's not. It's not. They haven't had a full staff complement in years. No. It doesn't, it doesn't meet the NSA max of staff members.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, if people would just look at the staff rather than the pool, you would you would get a sense. Because they do a lot, right? I mean, there is a lot going on there, but yeah, it's more, it's it's just not what people think. I think everybody thinks it's the sleeping giant. And I'm like, it has success. But it hasn't got success. It's produced some very good songs. But you're you're not producing this without the full funding to produce a national championship winning team is is not something that's going to happen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. It might be a sleeping giant in terms of it could be, I don't know, like a cult, uh, you know, like certain movies get cult status. It could be like the cult program, the cool it could become the coolest program.
SPEAKER_01It could do it. Yeah, it could do it. I think if you can successfully subver almost subversively flip the get out to uh who else but us.
SPEAKER_02Right. Like we're the toughest, most badass people.
SPEAKER_01Like there could turn and do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02All right. So so flipping that on its head, what what is it, what does it mean to want to coach? Because this is, again, I think you you've already sort of hinted at this, right? You're already bringing up the conversation where you go, people have a tendency to overstay their welcome, or even you can phrase that last conversation, people have a tendency to like think that they want something, I think, in coaching. And then when they get it, they go, Oh my god, I'm miserable. I didn't want this at all. So, and like I'm even listening to it from the perspective of I don't coach day-to-day because at least at this point I've gotten the maturity to to get out before I overstay my welcome when I'm doing stuff day-to-day. And I I think that, like, okay, but I'm still open to coaching in the future, but it has to be, I know that I have to want it structure. Right. I have to want it. So I guess we'll my starting point is I think about this in terms of ego. Again, competitive, right? Why do a lot of us get into coaching? Well, maybe we had a really positive experience. Like I know I got into coaching because I had really positive experience with the Coach, right? And I thought, like, well, this would be cool to do.
SPEAKER_01Well, a lot of people do, right? Why a lot of people do.
SPEAKER_02The Swim Brief Podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Being a coach is isolating. You know that saying that it's lonely at the top? Well, for many coaches, that's reality. Being a coach means everyone has an opinion on what you're doing. It takes work to filter out the noise and make the best decisions. You need to be able to think through plans, ideas, and problems proactively. At Chris DeSantis Coaching, I fill that gap for coaches. I'll help you turn every rocky moment into a slingshot and provide the support you need to be at your best. You deserve to have someone in your corner, and everyone on your team will benefit. If you want an expert to have your back in your coaching career, go to ChrisDcoach.com right now and fill out a contact form. You'll get an hour of my time at no cost to you. You don't have to go it alone any longer. Back to the podcast. We're also competitive people. You know, I tease myself for for espousing a little bit of non-competitive attitude, but like I'm a very competitive person. And we also, I know, at least personally, for me, like a lot of that competitiveness operates out from my ego. Like I'm still, I'll just admit something online. Like, I'm still burning, you know, watching the Olympics, being like, I could, I could do that. Like I could, you know, like I'm watching Bob Bowman with Leon Marchand, and I'm like, if only I was my ego tells me I am I could compete with anybody, right? And I think that that definitely can pull you a little bit into like into a job search where you're just like, I gotta get to a higher run, higher run. So I understand. How how do you how do you look at that?
SPEAKER_01I I think over time, man, I I I tell my athletes this when it came to parents, I won the lottery. Like I I just did. My parents. Congratulations. I don't feel that way. I I do, I do. I I owe them so much, it's it's crazy. And to the point where I'm in my late 30s, I'm 38 now, and I'll never forget this. I think last year at some point, my mom was like a part, she was like, you know, we sometimes thought we were a bit too strict on you. But that's all we knew with how we got rest. And I said in return, you know, when I was a teenager, it's dying, it's it stung a little bit. But yeah, every year, and I look back, I I get more and more grateful because I don't think saying no to your kid is easy. I think there's an emotional thing of you know, you don't want to have conflict with your child, and yet they they held their ground on a lot of really good, really good principles and integrity. I owe that to them, but there's no way around that. Um, and I I thank them all the time for it. And so, yeah, I I won the lottery. So when it comes to that, it's like I've always been more intrinsically motivated than externally motivated. You know, my dad would always say it's like it doesn't, it doesn't have to go perfectly, but if you tried your best, then that's then that's good enough. And the question on the table always is can you look at yourself in the mirror and say you gave everything you had? Yeah, you've got to get good at answering that question. I think there's a lot of people that answer that question sort of off-handedly rather than being, I mean, being honest with yourself is probably one of the hardest things you could do in life.
SPEAKER_02Um I think there's a lot of people that ask that question after the fact without defining what would be like you're trying your hardest ahead of time. Yeah, yeah. What is my best effort?
SPEAKER_01And it's a hard thing because you can't your best effort doesn't, let's take swimming, like your best effort doesn't necessarily mean a time.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01It doesn't. You can't quantify it with that. That's actually not you can get a little lucky with that, and you can also get a little unlucky with that. So it's not necessarily the best, the best metric. And what's interesting is I think over time, we talked a bit about this where there's two things that happened, and I think a lot of us, by the way, normal human nature, but none of that check on like what am I doing here? Like you said, why would you do it, right? Um, for me, that experience in Arizona once upon a time, it just became everything. I get to serve other people. I'm comfortable and financially stable and independent, and I get to serve other people. To me, that's a that's a that's a win-win. That's what life should be. If you're trying to genuinely be a good person, you know, stand on your own two feet, and then there's a podcast I listen to, but it's great. It's like concentric circles of trying to be a man, which is just like you take care of yourself, you learn to take care of yourself in a good way with good integrity, try to take care of those in in your immediate vicinity and circle. And then if you get really good at this, you're gonna take care of those without them even realizing you're doing it indirectly, things like that. To me, that's a definition of masculinity, and I love that definition.
SPEAKER_02I'm always you're you're you're speaking my language because I I've I've said on this um and I've written as well, and I I've it's a much better way of communicating what I'm trying to say. Like, my first priority is myself. But the only reason it is it's not a selfish thing. It's because I know that like if I don't take care of myself, then I can't take care of I can't expand the circle. I can't get to the next rung. If I'm completely in disarray, I'm compromised at every other step.
SPEAKER_01And so, yeah, it's funny. Like, I have people be like, oh, you're a swim coach, you must love swimming. And I'm like, I like swimming. I I appreciate a lot of the challenges of swimming. I love the technicality of swimming. I can define it down to the things I love about swimming, but I love working with ambitious young adults that are going through periods in their life that I hope I can help with. That's what I love doing. Swimming's a vessel for that. Swimming habits swimming is where my skill set lay, and I have some skill set in it, and this is where I can combine those two things because I have skill set here and I want to do this. That's what I'm going with, right? And as long as I'm walking that path, again, back to my dad, I don't need to have a perfect goal. I need a general direction. And then I'm gonna put one foot in front of the other and try my very best every day. And I'll land up wherever I'm supposed to be. And as long as the world is somewhat fair, it's never perfectly fair, right? We all know this, but the world is somewhat fair, and I work really hard day in and day out with a general direction. I do truly believe it'll be okay, everything will work out. And so they this is all I'm doing with coaching. And I think what what overruns those, that competitive side. I'm competitive, man. I know there's times my competitive nature overruns a few things, and I work very hard to keep that on a healthy playing field. I can't play tennis with my wife because she tried to learn how to play tennis once, and she hits the ball and she's thinking I'm gonna hit it nicely because she's got to learn how to play tennis. And it gets to like the last point two of a second, and I'm like, yeah, okay, hit it nicely, hit it nicely, she can learn, she can learn, and then the last point, right? I can't I can't turn it off on a tennis call. Apparently, the one time we've ever stepped on a tennis call, I haven't played tennis in years, I couldn't turn it off. It's not a venue when I where I could turn that off. Um, so we've never been back on a tennis call ever since. But I mean that proves I'm I I know I've got this competitive switch, and we do actually talk to our athletes about this. Yeah, I talk to my athletes all the time, but knowing how to switch that that that switch on and off. You should know how to turn your dials up and down. It's not nothing's really binary, but you should know when you're turning something to 11 and when you're when you're turning it back down. And nothing's ever truly on or off, but you you're just sort of adjusting the right way when you need to, and I think that's as healthy. So what happens, I think, is I I talk to you know guys that have just got into coaching and they're they're in their mid-20s mostly, they get into college coaching, right? And you'll say to them, you know, what do you what what what where do you want to go? What do you want to do? What type of program do you or whatever, right? And almost almost uniformly, almost uniformly, it's like, and I appreciate the aiming high, I appreciate the ambition. It's very about what they want to like. It's it's I want to be on a national championship winning team, I want to be the head coach at Cal or whatever it might be. And the fact is that's one job at one place, and there's one slot. Let's not start from the percentage of trying to be the 0.1%. Let's say I'm here and I'm going that direction. And if I land up getting an opportunity to go do that, because things have gone that well, I'm gonna take that opportunity. Um, I think there's an ego at play with coaching. I used to coach at George Tech with Andy, did you? I think you were already at Andy Lillard. Andy, Andy's an incredibly humble guy. I love Andy. Uh and he said he's like, you know, no coach. And he's right. I mean, you, me, we all. No coach doesn't have some level of ego. We wouldn't be doing this if there wasn't some level of ego in the rest.
SPEAKER_02But you you you need a little ego to stand up and be like, I'm standing up and talking, and everybody should listen to me right now because I I know what I'm talking about, and like I could really help you. Like, you have to have some level.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I go into meetings with with the whole team, and I'm like, God, I really don't like doing it, but I get myself to do it. But again, that hump must be some level of like, I know I can do this, and that's got to be some level of ear. And I think people let that start overrunning them. And I don't know if you know Alan Watts, Professor Alan Watts, but he that he had a series of lectures that that um people get into. I don't agree with all of it, but one of the phrases he said was, you know, it's something this generation's picking up on quite well, actually, is you can work and do everything perfectly, and it still doesn't maybe provide as much satisfaction as you think it might. Um, and it's all wretch and no vomit. In other words, you keep and it never gets there, you never get that satisfaction. Yeah, and I think a lot of coaches live that life because they start chasing that tail. And that the problem with that is in our environment, for me, remember what I said at the start of this conversation, it's about the athletes. The lens is what is best for the athlete. That could mean not swimming, by the way. There's a lot of things that could mean. What's best for this human being in front of me that I'm trying to help? Um, I hope it's athletics because that's what I'm doing. But you know, it could mean other same. And I think people chase it so much they start making the team's goals get a little too melded with trying to, it's their own goal now. It's about me. I'm trying to do something. Not we're trying to do something, not trying to help them for the right reason. Um, it becomes more about I'm building this, I'm trying to do that. And try I try very hard. I mean, when I say I try very hard not to say my team, I try to say our team. Yeah. Um when I took over Drexel, my assistant at the time said I really appreciate how much Nathan says we, us, because it is, man. I I can't, there's 20 people on a roster, if it's just me on the pool deck and nobody else, it's not gonna go very well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Especially as I get older, the gray hair start coming, it's really not gonna go well. So you know, I'm very aware, I've got an abstract at the moment. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not even close to doing anything useful.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's I think I think you start when you're young and human nature takes over that you're chasing that, and maybe we all know this, coaches don't get rewarded. I mean, I think one of the things that I've noticed over the last two, three years, right? People, Swim Swam has started reporting the salaries of especially mid-major coaches a lot more on all the articles that they're putting out. And people are shocked at what these guys are earning.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01And I'm like, what did you think they were getting? Like they, yeah, they live their lives in service of young people. And yeah, everybody knows that. So kind of like teachers, you can take advantage if you really want to be unfortunate about it, you can sort of take advantage of that soft spot of this person's not gonna hold out and walk out on the athletes.
SPEAKER_02If I pay it. 100%. 100%. I I I I do think, I mean, part of you talk about the the chasing satisfaction. Sometimes I wonder if if we've properly defined what being satisfied means. I mean, I think I go back to like the the conversation with your dad. You know, again, I think so many people are waiting for some moment that's undefined, and then they go, I will be satisfied when this happens. And it'll be something like, I'll be satisfied when I'm head coach of Cal and we win a national championship. And you go, like, okay, so one in a million, you'll be satisfied. And by the way, I can almost guarantee you, if you set that as your point, you won't be satisfied when you get there. You will you will not be satisfied.
SPEAKER_01If you're not enough, uh it was the superhero thing. I can never remember which one it was, though. It was like if you're not enough with without the without the the cape, you know. Spider-Man, yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, it's it's it's not enough without the suit.
SPEAKER_02Tony Stark says it. I just watched Spider-Man homecoming with my family. Tony Stark says it to uh to uh young uh Peter Parker when he takes away his suit.
SPEAKER_01If you're not enough without that, and it's an intrinsic, it's an extrinsic goal. If you're not enough without that, you're not gonna be enough with it.
SPEAKER_02Because I think I think another point about this is I talk to people motivationally all the time. I mean, like some all my stuff is is bound up in positive psychology, and I think one of the concepts at play here is all the time I'll ask people like, well, what do you want? Immediately, the most frequent thing I get back from people, they go, Well, I don't, I don't want. Like they they I ask them what they want, they say what they don't want. They don't say what they want. Because a lot of people who maybe are really narrowly defining that, they're like running away from where they are right now. And like the the the the thing motivationally about running away from where you are, just imagine like you know, you're actually in a scary life or death situation. You'll be very motivated to get out of the situation. Like if your house is on fire, right? You'll be very motivated to get outside of the house. But when you're 50 feet away from the house and you've got a warm blanket on top of you, like you're gonna take a minute. You're gonna take probably longer than a minute, right? And the motivation that got you running out of the house, it's not gonna be there anymore. So I think so many people like get these little spurts of like, I'm not happy with where I am, I gotta get out of here, right? And it it carries you for a little bit. But having an idea of like what is what is something that I actually want, and what is something that I what what is something that I already have? Like, what is something that I'm I'm grateful for? And I think to bring it all the way back, you know, to something you said about sort of growing up in a in a strict household, I mean, I think I think sometimes having less or being put in a tough situation does make you grateful for for what you have.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02It just does make you grateful. Like I I have found myself even in my room, like I have a puppy sleeping, the nine-week old puppy sleeping like ten feet away from you. Oh, that's phenomenal. We just got there a week ago.
SPEAKER_01Do you realize whether on the podcast or not, I'm gonna force you to show me the dog at some point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I will show it to you afterwards. I got a sense you were a dog lover. I've never don't think we talked about it, but you just seem like the type. Yeah, dude, it's it's it's bad. It's bad. So like before the puppy arrived, I was like, I got I have so much going on. Like I was I was filled with all this angst and stress, and like, and then I'm gonna, you know, add this little creature that I have to take care of like pretty much 24-7 onto it. Puppy arrived, and life has been even harder, and I find myself so much happier. Because all of a sudden I realized how good my life was. Like instead of with the dog.
SPEAKER_01This is why I love dogs, by the way, just so you know. Part of the reason I've never met a dog I don't love. And I I've made my wife and I both are like, I mean, we're about to, I'm about to move, and I'm paying the pet deposit at my new rental just so I can dog sit other people's dogs. Not make you.
SPEAKER_02We'll talk about that afterwards too, because you actually live in my area.
SPEAKER_01But um they live life the right way.
SPEAKER_02I just yeah.
SPEAKER_01I used to so that my my dog that passed away was had three legs, and you'd come home, and she lost, she lost her front leg while we had her, and she'd come home and she'd be the happiest thing on the planet. And she has this dog who's 65 pounds, missing a leg, and everything's cool, everything's good. Got everything she wants in the world. Yeah, exactly. It's not about what you want, it's what you need, and she's got everything she needs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then she's just finding joy in those moments, those connection moments, those little extra pieces. And I'm like, if we could get this across to I I hate to pick on young men, but a particularly young men. Uh I mean, having I'm just saying having been one.
SPEAKER_02Having recently been one, maybe.
SPEAKER_01Still a young man.
SPEAKER_00Still young, still young. Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, it's it's it's a huge, nice thing to see every day of your life. And as a reminder, you know, you'll come home. I mean, there were literally days I'd come home and be like, I'm having a hard day. I come in, I look at her and I'm like, I've I've got nothing to come in with. Yeah. I just yeah, I mean, this this this thing's literally doesn't matter. I could I could have done anything today, and I come home and it's a great moment. It's just a daily reminder of what life really kind of should be on some level. I'm not saying massive ups and massive downs, but but just a piece of like again, that that concentric circle idea of of taking care of others. I I I keep trying to preach it to to men sometimes. Like if you put yourself in service of others, I think you're gonna find purpose.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think for young men in particular, when I at least what my what I'm getting told when I talk to some of the young men on my team, I say, hey, what you know, what what what are you struggling with? It looks like it's this, right? They can't always put their finger on it. I say, Do you think do you think you're struggling with a sense of purpose? Yeah. And it's uniformly almost uniformly. Um, guys, guys go into the military and they they hate leaving because there's a sense of purpose. And most of the time what the military is forming is a sense of purpose towards the person next to you. It's a service to the person, you know, know the person in front of you's job, know the person behind you's job, be able to do those jobs and make sure you're a unit, right? That's not doing that initiative. That's this here. You happen to be doing that, but uh you're in service of uh the person next to you almost always in the military. And men men really love that when they figure it out. But we we don't have much in life right now that I think is is uh putting uh that in place. That's why I think sports teams right now are so hugely important. Uh if if if teams do keep getting cut, uh especially men's teams, uh we are taking out something that I I think provides a massive sense of purpose to to a young man, in particular, I think to everybody.
SPEAKER_02That's not a gender thing, it's everybody, but the swim brief podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Are you tired of not competing at your best? I've worked with countless athletes who felt that their mind was limiting them on race day. As a pioneer in the field of positive psychology, I have a unique approach. Instead of fixing what's wrong, I help athletes build an entirely new framework from the ground up, and I do it in as little as 12 weeks. I teach them how to make their active mind something that helps them. The work that I do stays with athletes long after we finish. Those that work with me get permanent results that go beyond their sports career. They not only bust through their current plateau, but learn what to do when the next one comes. If you know an athlete that could benefit from a complete rebuild of their approach, fill out a contact form at Christdcoach.com. Let's find out what they're truly capable of. Back to the podcast.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I find myself reson uh really resonating with this point because I I I think it's, you know, um I think that when you find that sense of purpose, I know for me, at least, sometimes I find myself so sensitive to like all sorts of criticisms of of who I am as a man. But when I have a sense of purpose, I just have this confidence that's like, I don't need to sweat that because I know what I'm doing is good. Like I know that I'm doing the right thing in the world. They're not talking about me. Like whoever, like whoever's mad, like they're not talking about me, you know? So, all right, I want to pivot to something. We've had all this peace and love conversation. I have the sense it's the one place we're gonna disagree.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. We'll f we'll find out.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Okay. Because you know, like you so you're on social media, right? And like if you're unfortunately. If you unfortunately, exactly. And if you follow somebody else on social media, like it highlights their comments and um Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you're if you follow somebody else and they commented that they're the first one on the so on every Bret Hawk post, if you comment, I get Nathan Swim Dragon. I get Nathan Swim Dragon on Instagram. So I have this perception. I feel like Bret Hawk has completely lost the plot. But you seem to like like some of his content, especially the sprint. Revolution stuff. It's driving me crazy. Now, so so to defend Brad Hawk, and I will tell you why you're wrong.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I gotta preface this with two or three things. I don't know Brett. I think I've been around Brett exactly twice in my life. Yeah, I think about the same for me. I mean I think and I can't say that I've been around him. I mean, I know I know people that that defend like like him a lot, and I know people that rarely don't. Um I tend to, when I don't know somebody, I tend to be like, I don't I don't know them. I mean, that's usually my default start. Somebody will ask me something, I'll be like, I don't have anything to say, I don't know them. Um so the conversation you're asking is more the stuff he's putting out there than it is about Brett.
SPEAKER_02100% because that they are two different things. I think it's a good point.
SPEAKER_01That's that's what social media is. Yeah, it's too it's not what you say social media is not real world. Um and with Brett, yeah, there's there's stuff that he puts out there that I disagree with. I I do I do disagree with. And there's stuff he's put out there that I do agree with. No doubt about it. There's stuff he puts out that I'm like, I like that. I'm I'm probably gonna take that and tweak it for my team.
SPEAKER_02What do you like? Get like a little specific because I feel like you like some of the training stuff, and that's the stuff where I'm like, this guy's out on another planet. Like, like I don't know, I don't know how we exist in the same unit.
SPEAKER_01That's how you're taking it, right? So I think I think he he posted so here's a here's a good example. I think he posted something with Bruno Fratus um at some point where Bruno was clearly what from what what it looked like, maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick, it looked like he was doing high-intensity interval work as his aerobic, basically. Um Tabata method, something along those lines, right? Uh I'm guessing at 30 on 30 or for four minutes worth of work, take a rest and do it again. And the the 30 the 30 seconds has to be, I mean, just cranking. Cranking. Yeah. A lot of people get that wrong. I mean, that 30 seconds. There's most people can't do it properly because it's it's the level you've got to go at is not something non-elite athletes are gonna reach. I don't I think he has a point with that. I think for Bruno, for instance, or even sprinters at at our level, at the level I'm coaching at, I wonder sometimes how much less aerobic I could give them. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not gonna fill it with mobility work or athletic development work, but I wonder sometimes how much of that base really needs to be in place. And I think less of a base towards more sprinting isn't the worst thing to experiment and try out. And I think that's how I'm taking what he's putting out sometimes is you know, I'm I'm looking at it that way. Now, I will preface that with, and I don't view this the exact same way. Like I said, there's areas that I think I disagree with him, which is I don't think I would do that with a 12 or 13 year old.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so we're we are in agreement there. Like I'm looking at some of his stuff where like he's throwing out like, you shouldn't like you know at 10 years old if somebody's gonna be a sprinter or not, and like then you should just specifically train them. You sure you might have a sense of it. Yeah, but like, does that mean because I'm actually looking back at the last Olympic cycle, something I've been talking about on a lot of these podcasts, and my reflection on it is people were less specified, like people are are at the top level actually fanning out, and because I think you reach a point of diminishing returns when you focus on any one aspect of something about this yesterday. Yeah, even if you're a drop-dead sprinter, there's only so much energy you can put into only high intensity training. Like there's only so much, you know, you can jam in the sausage maker before the casing explodes.
SPEAKER_01And I think I think the question with like like let's take the Bruno example. Bruno was only doing, at that stage, I think only doing the 50. Um so the question the question on the table to me is how much VO2 max, what what VO2 max number does does the guy who's doing the 50 really need? And then once you know the number, basically none, but I mean, look, you can't train with none, right? I mean, you need something to be able to do the some training. Sure. Is Tabata or or something high-intensity interval work gonna provide enough VO2 max for that to happen? And if it is, that's it. You're good. Yeah, you've got that piece of the puzzle done, and that's an easier piece of the puzzle for sprinters. So let's focus on some of the other stuff. I'm I'm fine with that. I mean, I think that that area is interesting, but the the yeah, I I mean one of the things that, and this is where it gets tricky because you don't know the full picture when you're on social media. And so if you notice, I don't I don't know if I've if I have ever interacted with something where it's uh if I've hit like even, I don't think I commented on much of this, but if I hit like on something where it's a kid doing it, I'll probably if you hit like I see it.
SPEAKER_02I see it.
SPEAKER_01I probably hit like because I I like the the general construct of what's going on, but maybe not the age group, right? Hey, if for 12 and 13 year olds, I think we swim too much. I I I would prefer to to see them do like four sports and stuff like that. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02So you you think people are are specializing too early in the sport of swimming, not necessarily swimming too much. Yeah, but like yeah, 100%. And that's that's that's one of those things where it just seems to be so hard because you know, club swimming, I think, is it also has its own struggles right now. Obviously, participation numbers. I just had Joel Schnefeld from USA Swimming on, and you know, I mean, hey he's got a really hard job because uh I think people are holding him accountable to participation numbers in USA swimming, and they're they're not headed in the right direction. I even heard sort of colloquially that we're not seeing the post-Olimpic bump that we normally see in participation in USA swimming. So I'd be curious to see some hard numbers come about that. But you know, you look at at club swimming, and it's like I think everybody with common sense knows it'd be better for kids to play three or four sports at a young age, and yet what incentive does your average swim club have to encourage that?
SPEAKER_01Like Right, there's a piece that's gonna take it. I literally said this the other day, and I I I don't know how people would would take to it, but I I was chatting to a friend of mine who did track and field in college, and she was saying, you know, I I said to her, like, look, I out of curiosity, yeah, because USA track and field doing quite well at the moment. Uh yeah, they are.
SPEAKER_02They were incredible at the Olympics.
SPEAKER_01And they're doing well in areas that are not always easy to do well in. Um and so I said to her, like, look, I out of interest, like when you're growing, I just I don't know what made me ask the question. It was during the Olympics, and I reached out to her and I said, Look, when you're in high school, according to her, at least maybe where she grew up or whatever, um, she was a pole vaulter. I said, You, you know, when you hit summer, were you with your high school track and field coach?
SPEAKER_02What was she doing?
SPEAKER_01You either didn't do pole vault during the summer, or you went and found a club. But the high school and the club separation was defined.
SPEAKER_02Complete.
SPEAKER_01How many places in swimming the high school coach happens to be your club coach? Or you don't go to high school swimming because you're doing club swimming the whole time? Yeah. I think I've been thinking about this. I don't know. I don't know if I've got a firm opinion yet, but I have been thinking about it the last couple weeks. Don't we think it would be beneficial for the high school season to be in play while they're in school, and that coach coaches them, and this is a strongest swim team in high school, and the club isn't involved, and then when we get to summer or whatever, the club's involved, and the high school isn't. You're getting two coaches, two different sets of eyes, two different sets of opinions, two different development tracks, possibly. Now we're talking about something very different. And the kid gets more information, more development in two different ways, and we might get more feedback on which way's going to work for that particular athlete or whatever. It I don't think it's the worst anymore.
SPEAKER_02I feel like I have to represent every club coach something listening to this who would go, whereas my school coaches are idiots. You know, it's some bozo from the, you know, some bozo English teacher from the school doesn't know anything and they practice twice a week and they don't do anything hard. And, you know, Nate, you're just like, you're asking me to like, I'm accountable for the results of these kids, and I'm not gonna turn it over to them. And then plus, the summer comes, what are they gonna train with their summer league team all summer too? Then I only get half a year to like train them. Like, I think that that is definitely where people go. I'm gonna try to agree with you in the sense that I do think the thing that's underrated is that having healthier high school swimming would be good for everybody. It would be good for everybody. And I I've told this story before, but I grew up and I I swam high school all four years. I loved high school swimming. I had a great experience doing high school swimming. And when I was a senior in high school, we had a guy who had never done competitive swimming, you know, beyond recreational leagues. He came out as a freshman for the team, right? And he started swimming, and like a bunch of us that were year-round swimmers, we're looking at him, we're like, hey, this guy's not bad, right? But like he maybe went 57 in his 100 backstroke, his freshman year of high school, first year of competitive swimming. Um, and we said to him, like, hey, you know, maybe you should think about swimming year-round. Okay, so he starts going and swimming year round. He goes 50 point his sophomore year in the hunterback. Yeah, now you're not missing around. Right? His junior year, he goes 48, he sets the state record. Yeah. Senior year, he doesn't swim high school at all. And I knew his club coach, who's Chuck Bachelor. I've told this story before. And um, by this time I'm in college and I've come back and I'm actually, you know, coaching uh a group that sort of feeds nominally feeds into Chuck's group. That's a whole nother story. But I said like I said to Chuck, like, What why did you know you should you should he should do high school swimming? He goes, it's a waste of time. You know, all the arguments that I just gave you, and I go, Yeah, but if he's not on the high school team, who's going to tell the next kid to come to your team? And it was like, no, nothing. So I do think I think it's what I what I say to all those people is like, I get it. You probably think whoever's on the other end of this, it's a waste of time, this, that, and the other thing. But you ought to find a way to work with high school swimming and work with summer league swimming because those things feed what you're doing. And if you just strangle them, you're strangle ultimately you're strangling yourself. It's like the same. I mean, you're a college swim coach, and and it's the same thing with like all this conflict between college and club swim coaches. Like, you guys need each other. Stop arguing.
SPEAKER_01And kids are going to school. You're not getting rid of that anytime soon.
SPEAKER_02No, they're gonna keep going to high school.
SPEAKER_01I hope, I genuinely hope that they're still gonna go to high school. But yeah, that's that's exactly it. And I think I think to address the concern you have, I would say if if the kids that currently do club in the f let's say the fall and the winter had to be in their high school, had to be at their high school pool. One of two things would hopefully happen. Now, I get that it the initial phase would probably be a bit of a bit of a pull to swallow. Let's all pretend that we have some level of delayed gratification and play the long-term game.
SPEAKER_02Which nobody has. Okay, but go on, go on with your plan.
SPEAKER_01Let's pretend.
SPEAKER_02Pretend.
SPEAKER_01I think, much like high school track and field, you you are gonna have some schools that are gonna focus in that direction and become better at swimming, right? They're gonna focus that way, and I think that will happen more and be beneficial to our sport and everybody involved and get more kids into swimming in the high school. Like your, like, like your story with the young man, if the person who's coaching at high school isn't standing there thinking my best swimmers aren't in the building right now and I'm doing nothing. Yeah, that person will advocate more for their team and probably get more support if we know that team has a chance of being good and is in the building. This one foot in, one foot out, what administrator in their right mind is ever gonna go, yeah, I'm gonna support that?
SPEAKER_02Right. Right. No, I mean, like again, you will grow the base.
SPEAKER_01The base is in high schools, and we're currently not doing anything in high schools.
SPEAKER_02And I'll tell you what I I loved about it was, and I again I'm now making now it's turned into us making plugs for high school swimming, but like, you know, I was this kid who was spending so much time on this thing outside of school, and none of my peers understood what I was doing at all. Right. None of them. Right. And then I went to swim for the high school team, and like, you know, one of my friends came to the meet where we swam the crosstown rivals, and I won the race, and they were like, Holy, holy shit, you're good at this. Like, and for me as like a 15-year-old kid, I was like, Finally, somebody sees like what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_01Let's let's make this nice and round. Let's make this nice and and and all hunky-dory and happy, right? Happy work. Let's make this a positive silver lining.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You're then providing more of a team structure in service of others to young people rather than who at 50 is still talking about their club exactly? Very few people. But you're still talking about your college team, and you could be talking about your high school team. High school team.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Sense of community is a very important thing.
SPEAKER_02Because the experience has meaning, it has a meaning that I mean, um, and this is probably where I'll wrap this podcast up because I gotta go, and you may also have to go. I don't know. But um, you know, uh, I spent a lot of time in my life just uh listening to Milton Elm's talk. And um yeah, one of the things he said to me that I I will never forget is he goes, Chris, the kid that gets fifth in their high school dual meet and scores one point for the team has a much more meaningful experience than whoever finishes 78th at futures. Okay. Now the kid who finishes 78th at futures a much better. That's a really good point, actually. Is a much better swimmer, no doubt. You're at a national level swim meet, you're a very high-level swimmer. But like, think about like what it means to go like, yeah, we were you know swimming that other team, and like I made the difference between us getting zero points and one point. Like I did it, I put points on the board. And and so I do think as we look at at swimming, and I I guess we started this with Brad Hawk, and I couldn't bait the hook with for any good argument, and then we started talking about high school swimming. It's a great place to end. I think that's that's the overarching point that um it is important to find that sense of community and and meaning in in what you're doing because that does stay with you. Uh, I run into people all the time who, you know, I tell them I'm a swim coach or I I tell I'm still competing in swimming. I tell them that, and they go, I swim in high school. Like that happens every day, right? They don't go, well, I mean, I I I'm a little biased about it because I'm in South Jersey and I do run into a lot of people who go, Jersey Wahoos. Like that, but that's a special place, right? There's not a lot of places like that where people definitely feel that way about the club they it's one of the things the why the why why swimming versus club swimming is one of the things why swimming gets not perfect, but they do get it a bit better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. People attach to their why a little bit more than they attach to clubs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because it's the community. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Okay, well, Nate, it's been amazing. I knew this would be good. I knew that I would have fun doing this, and it was even better than I thought. So thank you so much. Maybe uh we'll see each other in person sometime. I'm gonna I'm gonna stop stop recording and I'm gonna show you a puppy, and then I'm gonna get on with my day, but thank you very much for having me on, Chris, at any time, man.
SPEAKER_01I'm happy, I'm happy to do it.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Swimbriefpodcast at gmail.com. If you want to contact me, Christycoach.com, you can fill out a contact form. And yes, unfortunately, I am available on social media, Christy underscore coach on Instagram. Thank you everybody for listening, and I'll talk to you again soon.