Hello, and welcome to the swim brief. I'm Krista Santis, and I feel very privileged today to be joined by one of the best coaches in America, one of the best swim coaches for sure in America, Kate Lunson, the head coach of Aqua Jets uh team out in Minnesota that has consistently been one of the best USA swimming clubs, um, many time gold medal uh club performance club. Kate, welcome.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. It's good to be here.
SPEAKER_00So I want to get right into it with you. Um, and you and I went back and forth a little bit about what we were going to discuss. I'm gonna catch you slightly off guard with the first question, but I I think it's it's it's not, you know, it's probably one I think you've you've thought quite a bit about. You know, I'm reflecting back to the Olympics because to me, you know, like the Olympics, they come and go, and everybody gets really, really excited about them. And maybe we don't always spend as much time thinking about the journey from one to the next. So I kind of want to ask you a question that I think is on my mind. Um, because we've just seen USA swimming is obviously going through a leadership change, and this is pure speculation on my part. But I think part of that has to do with, you know, people looking around and going, the performance of the U.S. team was maybe not up to the standard, the almost impossibly high standard we've set for ourselves as a country over the past. And I promise I'm gonna bring this back to you as a as a club coach. You're somebody who has coached people all the way up to the highest heights to being on the US Olympic team. Do you think if if you accept the premise that that is USA swimming standard, that you know, we got to dominate the rest of the world in gold medals, there's kind of nowhere to go but down from there. Um in your own coaching career, you know, you don't coach an Olympian every cycle, right? And you and I were talking about planning and stuff. Right. What do you do in terms of, I guess in terms of goal setting as a coach, when you've achieved basically the highest thing you can possibly achieve, where do you go from there in terms of where you set your goals?
SPEAKER_04I think it's like all coaches, we we look at the kids that we we coach, right? And we see the the talents, um, the hard work, and you you work with your program according to the best swimmer you have on your team, right? So I plan my program around the best swimmer uh on the group that I coach, and and then from there, that's how you that you that's how you plan everything. And everybody else kind of steps up to that that level. Not everybody, but hopefully most people step up to that level. And I think that's that's the thing that we have to do of as coaches. Who's the best? Um guy, girl, whatever. How can we make it successful? Because I'm an agewood coach, I'm not a college coach.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_04So I don't coach them specifically if they're a sprinter. I mean, we separate, but you know, we coach them all around I amers, we're working everything all the time. We they're swimming 12 events, you know, they don't swim three. So um that we're always working like that. And I think when that starts fading, and you suddenly don't look and think um they're the best, or who is the best, what are we doing? We're gonna do the same thing, then you're in trouble. You really think you can't do the same thing because all the kids are different. And um uh in the best one year is gonna be different than three years from now, and or four years from now, or whatever it is. So that's kind of how we do it at Aqua Jazz.
SPEAKER_00Could I ask you about a piece of that? Uh you because you you you you very clearly said I start with my best swimmer and I sort of work backwards from that. I was talking to a coach yesterday, I I coach coaches, and this was the almost exact question he asked me. He said, in terms of how I set myself up, should I should I work from my best swimmer backwards, or should I, you know, sort of try to make make my top priority kind of broadening out my team in general? What what made you make that decision to sort of have it go and flow in that direction?
SPEAKER_04Well, remember, I coached just when I was younger, I coached a lot of the groups. I coached eight and unders all the way out. Now I coach our national group.
SPEAKER_00That's all I So this is specifically for the national group?
SPEAKER_04Specifically for national group. It's not for our eight and unders that we look at the past, they were just saying, okay, listen, try to do dolphin kicks and let's see if we can be streamlined, right? That's that's the goal there. Um, but for specifically the national group, that's how we get our silver and gold, right? That's how you get the silver growth. They really do not, that silver and gold does not look at an age group team and say it's an age group team. It's the kids that are the silver and gold level, um, in order for us to get that. We were just talking about that today, actually, in practice.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, it's it's depth of exceptional swimmers. It's not depth of overall.
SPEAKER_04No, it's so looking at at a program level, you can't do that. There's no way you can't look and you've got to go, how can we raise the level up? But when they come into my group, we already kind of know they're gonna be 15, maybe 14, right before they turn 15. We kind of know, okay, they're gonna be pretty good, or we kind of know already. But the coach that you were talking to, yeah, I you you can't do that. I don't think. I don't think you can that easily.
SPEAKER_00And and let me ask you one more question before I move on. And that is, you know, you you talk about that's what produces uh USA swimming club excellence, gold or silver right silver medal club. For some reason, I'm having trouble saying the word silver today.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, does that a goal for you as a coach? I mean, do you do you and your coaching staff go like we would like to be a gold medal club again? Is that a goal you guys say out loud and and strive towards?
SPEAKER_04The goal I always think about is here.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04So yes, of course, I know I do all the time. Uh, but I don't ever talk to my servers about it ever. I don't 90% of our team doesn't even understand what it means.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04They just see that we have banners up, but they don't know really how amazing those banners are. I mean, for clubs to just get one banner, it's pretty cool in Minnesota. We we're blessed to have many, many, many banners uh with uh silver or gold. So I'm it's for me, for my standard, yeah. I I of course I'm looking at that all the time, uh, but not all the time. But I do at the end, I'm thinking, yeah, I wonder what we got this year. Did we squeeze in? You know what I say? I you know, I'm I know we're not gonna get first, but uh I that's always in the back of my mind. But no, I never talked to the coaches mean about it or anything like that. Yeah, never.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So I would ask you to speculate on one more thing. Um, if we go up to the USA swimming level, do you think that that translates? Do you think that USA swimming should sort of work backwards from gold medals, you know, in terms of like we're trying to get our athletes, our standard is we're trying to get people, we have people that we think can be the best in the world, and as many people up to that level as we possibly can. Do you think that's the right philosophy for USA swimming?
SPEAKER_04I mean, I yeah, I think that's what they have to do. That's how they always have done it. I mean, they're they're looking for Olympians. That's what they want, and they're looking for gold. Like you said, the standard that we have set so high over so many years over and over and over, it's like there's not a lot of places you can go down this, but down, like you said, Chris. But it's uh, you know, that's the standard they have to set, and that is their standard.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I was just I I I took that for granted, and I I I made myself pause yesterday because I looked at the actual medal count and I'm going, you know, like we're looking, some people are discussing this Olympics as somehow like an off-year, and then I I see we have 13 silver silver medalists. Yeah, there comes that word silver again. Silver medalists. And like, gosh, that's that means that these people winning a medal at the Olympics is extremely hard. Going there is cool. You just one person beat you, one other person in the entire world beat you. That's pretty great. And yeah, that is that is sort of where the standard is.
SPEAKER_04I mean, isn't that kind of sad? I mean, it is a little sad. I don't I never want to, I never want the the the kids, the young adults that went to Paris to ever think they failed because they didn't. I mean, but you know, you know, but the chat is is yes, uh US USA swimming has to do something. We have to change something. So I mean, they didn't, they did an incredible job, but uh according to what we did before, it wasn't as good. But yeah, I agree with you, Chris. Silver is pretty cool. Yeah, those were awesome looking.
SPEAKER_00You can see, I mean, just I come always from the psychological side of the sport, and I think it is absolutely true. Like, just looking at people on the medal stand, the gold medalist is always thrilled, right? The bronze medalist always looks quite happy because like they were they were one spot away from no medals at all. So they're like bronze is great, and silver is quite frequently like I came so close to being the best, you know. Like it is it. I think when you probably you get some distance from it, you go, yeah, that was an amazing thing that I accomplished. But in the moment, it's very, very tough. The swim brief podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Being a coach is isolating. You know that saying that it's lonely at the top? Well, for many coaches, that's reality. Being a coach means everyone has an opinion on what you're doing. It takes work to filter out the noise and make the best decisions. You need to be able to think through plans, ideas, and problems proactively. At Chris DeSantis Coaching, I fill that gap for coaches. I'll help you turn every rocky moment into a slingshot and provide the support you need to be at your best. You deserve to have someone in your corner, and everyone on your team will benefit. If you want an expert to have your back in your coaching career, go to Chris Dcoach.com right now and fill out a contact form. You'll get an hour of my time at no cost to you. You don't have to go it alone any longer. Back to the podcast. Um, oh you you you opened me up to ask one more question in there before before I said one more before I move on. But then you said USA swimming, you know, has to do something. Okay. You have been working within USA swimming very successfully, producing high-level athletes for a long time. Um we've got a couple puppies uh also in on this interview. What do you think, what from your vantage point, can USA swimming do to support swimming at the club level so that we you know we we continue to have uh amazing talent coming up to the Olympic level as we have had over that time period?
SPEAKER_04Well, I always tell this story in it in positive, right? It's so it was it was when Mark Schubert was was the national leader.
SPEAKER_00Are you smiling because you know I'm not a fan of Mark Schubert? No, I I just know he's he's it's kind of a bad word to say these days, Mark Schubert. Yeah, okay, go ahead.
SPEAKER_04He is, and I I understand that, but I want to tell you what he did for me. Okay, because I had absolutely I knew who he was, and I watched him coach on the pool deck, and I thought, okay, okay, that's whatever. You do you. But um he came and I was at the Pan Ams with Rachel. It was an urban.
SPEAKER_00Rachel Bootsma who went to the 2012 Olympic Games.
SPEAKER_04And he came to me and he said, uh that girl could make the Olympic team, and she was she was like third or fourth at that time in the 50 back.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_04So it wasn't even the hundred back. She needs to get stronger. Within a week, I had someone at my pool flown in from Colorado Springs to test her out. Now, talk about the financial commitment at the time. And like, you know, Rachel, you know, did a great job. She made the Olympic team, but I it's and I'm not saying you can do that anymore because financially they couldn't support that, and he probably was not financially good with what he had.
SPEAKER_00He's probably not supposed to do that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but I do think um when there's and I hate hate to use the word talent, but there is a sense where talent comes into swimming. I mean, there has to be what puts him at the next level. I know hard work and dedication, uh, mental, emotional readiness, all that stuff is really important, but there's a uh there's they have this little extra that I don't have and I never did as a swimmer. I couldn't feel water. Yeah, so right, we we understand. But I I I guess there is that point where they have to I don't know how how you do it nowadays, I'm not sure. Of just that support. And I know if you reach out to them, they're going to support you. They they because that's they know their jobs are on the line for that, right? Right. But it's it's how to maybe it's us coaches that we don't want to relinquish that. Like, you know, I don't want them telling me what to do because I know what's best. Well, we don't always know what's best. I don't know. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I wrote about it. I mean, uh, in terms of the decision they have to make and putting a new director or national team director into that role that Mark Schubert and had. And I think the story that you tell does speak to, I think they made a very conscious decision to move away from having a high-profile coach. In that, Lindsay Mentenko did not have a lot of coaching experience when she was in that role. And part of the value of having a coach in that role, I think, again, that I hear in the story that you told is somebody with that commands the respect of your average club coach in America to come out and and and just say, hey, here's what I think is the missing piece to get this swimmer from you know great junior national talent up to the Olympics. This is this is what I see.
SPEAKER_04Um, I agree. And I love that I think Lindsay's awesome. I really do. I really like her as a person, but she wasn't a coach and she never tried to be a coach.
SPEAKER_00And I don't think they asked her to really be a coach, change the role.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's exactly right. But I do think there's something to be said with a coach in that that that area, because I think coaches have like, okay, I can go and talk to them because a lot of us age group coaches, uh, again, and you know this, we're trying to coach 350 kids, trying to make a living for all the coaching staff, and trying to make sure these kids enjoy swimming, stick with swimming. Are, you know, we're we're we're not spending time on just Olympians or trying to produce Olympians. We're just trying to go day by day, right? So we when you talk about season plan, weekly plan, quad plan, all that stuff, it has to be in our radar. There's no question it has to be there as a group coaches. But um sometimes we're just trying to stay, keep our heads above water, right? I have an incredible staff, so my head is above water because I have so many people that are so good at what they do. But um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You made a perfect segue because that's the next thing that we're gonna talk about.
SPEAKER_04I knew that.
SPEAKER_00You're you're rising to the level. You're like the top guest on the swim brief now, okay? You you read the whole outline and you're like providing me with the segue and not stepping on it by by calling it out. But let's talk about uh your coaching staff. And I wanted to talk about this because uh I guess about a year and a half ago, I made a trip out to Minnesota and I was I just invited myself. I was like, hey, can I come out and meet everybody? Yes.
SPEAKER_04As long as you don't have a gun in your place. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I passed those. I think I think it was all good. I smiled enough. Um, you know, and I got to hang around and I, you know, again, one day impression. So, you know, take it for what it's worth. But I I was struck by what the atmosphere was like. Um a few things that just, you know, from my side that I observed, it was a very collaborative environment. Okay, so despite the fact that um you had the legendary Kate Lunson at the top, people felt very comfortable. I saw in conversations being like, hey, here's what I see, here's what I think should happen. Um, there were just a lot of bodies on the pool deck, which I think is is a challenge these days, just to get enough staffing to anything. So I want to leave this question really open-ended, uh, or or maybe just start at the beginning, because uh, you know, you you credit your staff, and I do think it takes a village to to to create a a good team. When you're hiring, like what do you look for? What do you start with? You go, if if people have this, I know that they can make this team better.
SPEAKER_04Well, you know, it that's always a great question because when I first started Aqua Jets, um, I went and asked another coach, like, who uh it was Pam Swendler. I said, Who do you look for when you you know get coaches? She goes, Teachers. I said, Oh, great idea, but how do I find teachers? I do have I do have a teacher, but a couple teachers on my staff. Um they're they're super good, right? And so And why teachers?
SPEAKER_00Just ex just for people that may not intuitively understand why you would want a teacher. Why teachers?
SPEAKER_04Well, they know how to control a classroom.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_04And they teach not for the money, but for the love of working with kids, right? I that's the thing. I don't know what else.
SPEAKER_03Especially in 2024, yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_04I don't know what else. You know, the number one thing is do they work with with kids? Do they want to see these kids excel as human beings, right? That's our goal. I mean, I I read your blogs. I mean, you're always about the you're always about the psychology of it, right? Yeah, I mean, that's what you are, which I read the one you suck. That was such a good article, Chris.
SPEAKER_01Oh, the one I just wrote.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah, that was such a good article. Like I'm I'm having I'm having, yeah, that sucked, not you suck, but I'm having that my coaches read that because I think we hear that all the time as as coaches, and I want us to know how to respond to this generation because it's different. So have a coach's meeting. Hey, we're all around, we're in our circle. We we go in a circle because you know the circle is there's no one who's the head, right? And so we even do it our in our team meetings, but we have a circle, and someone says, Hey, let's talk about one thing that no one knows about us. And I said, Well, I've coached you, you, you, you. I mean 90% of my staff I've coached.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So and and you got a good pre-screen on a lot of those people.
SPEAKER_04No, they have kids that are on our team now, but you know, I you know, I I'm 64, so I've coached a lot of people in my life, and I already knew what they were like. So I've had that advantage of coaching a lot of kids. They've coming back and now they're adults, and they have children that are going into college. And you know, I have one that's a a parent, and she's incredible with young people. I mean, she's incredible. She was a youth minister back in the day, and uh her her two daughters and and and and her. Son swam with us. One daughter still swims with us. Restaurant college. But you see that. Oh, I know this person, they're great. They'd be great. So it's all communication. That's where I get my coaching. Do you love kids? Are you willing to work with these kids? Are you willing to respect them, listen to them, and then coach them? And that's the key, right? I don't care if they're fan. I had a coach coach with me in high school when I first started off in high school coaching. And I had a mom who coached only softball one season. I said, You're hired.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04She was incredible with the kids that would have been left behind. She was great.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04And they weren't left behind because of her, right?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't care.
SPEAKER_04All the specifics.
SPEAKER_00No, like, and I I almost think, and I want to get into the psychological side of it, but I I have heard some version of what you're saying before. And I almost think sometimes it can be an advantage to hire people who don't know very much about swimming because they're a bit of a blank slate. I mean, as if you if you have the confidence in your ability, okay, the stuff that they really need to know about swimming, I can teach them. Right. We can, we can, we can, in, you know, as a group, we can get that up to speed. It's very hard, I guess possible, but very hard to teach people to be enthusiastic about working with kids. And when I look at the the psychological side of it, um, you know, I was just having this conversation uh with somebody you know as well, Paul Donovan, actually, he'll be on the podcast next week. My friend, yeah, my friend, my friend Paul. And, you know, we were talking about the difference between training and coaching. And, you know, there's one, there's one aspect to like crafting the perfect plan, the perfect workout, you know, making sure that you're giving people exactly, you know, what they may need to develop into the best shape they can, the most speed, the most athletic, all that stuff. But on the coaching side of it, this stuff is really hard. People essentially have to opt into doing it. And the the relationship that you have with the person who's asking you to do it makes all the difference about whether you opt in.
SPEAKER_04I agree. 100%. 100% agree. You answered every that's 100% right, right? That's that's where it is. And kids are not stupid, they know if coaches get along, they know if coaches like them, they know they they already know, you know, and so you know, they know if you're invested in them, they know if you are if they're seen, they know all this stuff. And I think um, you know, I I I I've uh people have asked, you know, what makes it so why do you think people come and join your team? I said, because they see the coaches liking each other on the pool deck. We actually like each other, we like to hang around together, it's okay, right? And the kids know that, and then they they can establish their friendships, of course, on uh in the pool as well. But it's something to be said about it. Yep.
SPEAKER_00But so you have some teachers. I mean, one person that I hit it off with, you got a guy on your staff who's an architect.
SPEAKER_04Architect, man. Which I love because we do not think alive. 25 and a half, 27 and a half, dude. I can't even read the clock for 27. You might really want these 50s on 27 and a half. Yes, I do. Okay, you tell them where to go. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But what is it? I mean, so what is it? You as you said, you hire somebody who thinks completely differently from you. But you know, as a head coach, of course, you must want some kind of consistency. So, what makes you look at somebody who thinks so differently and go, yeah, that person will fit right in with what whatever else I've done?
SPEAKER_04I've known Chris for I've known Chris forever, but I mean, I um maybe it's because of my age, but I even when I was young, I wasn't, I was more protective. But, you know, I've been at Aqua Jets for 20 years, and there's there's really nothing to prove, and we don't have to prove anything. And I really I've always for years and years, most of my life, I'm a community. I'm the youngest of five kids. I was raised the youngest of five kids. I've always had brothers and sisters around say, Okay, I gotta get this project done. Can we all come together and work together? And so, um, and I that's what our coaching staff is like. And so Chris thinks from, you know, I might be thinking from the north, and he's thinking from the south. Literally, the polls are so different. Yeah, but then we come and we chat about okay, this is what we want to accomplish. Do we want to accomplish this or that? And then we come to this great set with Leah coming from the east. So there's three of us on the pool deck, or Gio, or there are a lot of different people on the pool. How are we gonna do this? And we come and come together and say, This is what we want to get, this is what we want to achieve. Let's do this. Yeah, so um it works, it works really well because I look at a set and I say, Are you serious? Chris, you put that many words down. I have to write all that on the board. You know, I always give them a hard time. Please look at notes, and it's you know, it's 12 12 feet long.
SPEAKER_00I I I don't know if I told you this, but I'm I'm married to a trained architect, so that's probably why, you know. And I'm always like, I'm always kind of like, uh, let's just, you know, let's just do this thing. And I'm um, and she's like, no, no, no, we're gonna measure exactly, and the curve's gonna be here.
SPEAKER_04Oh, right on you're that's 100% right. That's exactly right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We're like, I'm like, we'll figure it out. Don't worry.
SPEAKER_04We'll figure out the wall get up straight enough. It's good enough, it's gonna straight up.
SPEAKER_00Um, to tell me further into that point, right? You got a collaborative environment, okay? So you know these people really well. What do you, as a head coach, what do you want consistency on? I mean, just in the way somebody runs practice, where do you go like, hey, look, this is how I don't know, you're probably not this dictatorial about it, just judging your personality. You're probably not going, this is how we do it at Aqua Jets, you better do it this way. But but where is it sort of like, okay, we want this to be consistent? And where do you where do I where do you go? Paint whatever pretty picture you want, you know, in your workout.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So, you know, you're asking how uh what's the autonomy like for the coach?
SPEAKER_01For sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I you know, we have lead coaches in every group. So we have our little gold groups are the eight and under, and then we have blue groups that are nine, ten, eleven, then we have juniors, then we have seniors, national, blah blah blah. So each each per each group has a lead coach. So they're in charge of communication, they're in charge of this and that, and blah blah blah. Okay. And everyone who works with that lead coach, they do it just like how we do it. We just kind of collaborate. The eight nunders, they do have a program that they follow. We had a uh one of our our coaches from Alaska wrote a whole program during COVID for the Eight Nunders, and they use it to this day. Okay. You know, summer, spring, winter, fall. It, you know, T goes through the basics, right? The dolphin kick, the streamlines, the turns. So they literally follow that plan. And all the people that are involved with them, they actually like it. They like not no, they don't have to follow it exactly because I couldn't. I've never looked at directions. So, you know, if they're a pure person like mine.
SPEAKER_00Because you're not an architect, you haven't looked at directions, yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's right, that's right. But um, so that's what some of you know that's how they do it. Um, and so I give them that autonomy of saying, You're in charge, I know who you are. I hired you, you're in charge, go for it. Unless I hear something bad. And if I do hear something bad, guess what? I I tell them right away. I don't wait for an end-of-the-year season talk. If I if a per a parent is called, which really, rarely happens.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you have to tell us a secret to that. Wait a second. Don't bury the lead. People rarely call you and complain.
SPEAKER_04No, they just leave, but um, yeah, I I I I guess it's it's to know that I mean the staff needs to know they're important. Uh we couldn't run the team without them. Uh, it's because of where we are, is because of them. Yeah, and that means office people, that means meet people who put the meats on, all of it. So it's always about the community. It's never one person who does it. Never. It's always about the community. And hopefully they always feel part of that community community. Sometimes they get lost. They said, What's our role? I go, I don't know, just love the kids. I guess that's your role. You know, ah, I don't always know.
SPEAKER_00I I I do really want to follow up on the parent communication end of it. I mean, I think because I think that's something that probably a lot of coaches, you know, it's a stress point, right? For a lot of coaches, if you just sort of ask them, like, hey, what's what's um what's taking up a lot of your mental space at this point? You know, and I even look back on it just to give you a perspective, you know, like my last time coaching full-time, I stopped in um 2022. And I did, for the purpose of this podcast, I look back at some of the emails that made me really upset. And I had this insight. Reading them six or nine months after I wasn't coaching day to day, I realized this is not that bad. Like this this person just had a question, and I must the the state that I must have been in when I read it was what really contributed to me just like blowing a top and sort of being like, I can't believe this person, you know, is coming to me like that. But what what what do you I mean, what do you do to manage that communication?
SPEAKER_04You saying that is is so right on. I mean, that is so right on that as you look back, like you said, six months later, and you're looking at because in the moment you're oftentimes hurt, angry, mad. All these things are coming up, and I've had my share of stuff. I'm gonna just tell you that. And all our coaches, yeah. So you know, and we that's why coaches most of them quit or can't do it anymore, just because it's so stressful. Um, but I think uh what really helped is, and this is I don't mean to segue into the next thing, but bringing outside people in, but uh, we were really struggling. We brought 10 kids in from a dysfunctional team into AquaGest. We were very young, we didn't have a lot of swimmers on the team. So bringing 10 from a dysfunctional team is like right, they they were kind of a mess.
SPEAKER_00It's a big culture project to take on.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they they were but they're great kids now, adults, they're they're all different walks of life, but um great young people. But bringing them in made me I had I went through actually Rachel's mom, Jan Bootsma. I said, Do you know her sports psychologist? She goes, Yeah, Rachel's using this one because she had she went through two one, and I think she went through four of them. And the one she uses is uh Sean Goodsell. And Sean said, the reason she stuck with him, she went through the USA swimming route, she went through everything. And the first thing he did is when she walked into his office is do you wanna do you want to be done with swimming? Be done. Nobody cares. The world does not care if you're if you want to hang up your suit, it's okay. Your life will go on. You will go to college. You so she she never did, right? Of course, but she that freedom that he gave. So Aquajet hired him. Yeah, and he came once a month, twice a month. And the first thing he told me is he said, Kate, parents are not your enemy. All they're doing is protecting their kid, and that's the best they know how to do is to protect their kid. And so as a coach, and Sean doesn't because now Sean's in North Carolina, so we've gone to Brooks, but the first thing if I really have a parent issue, I call these guys because they're outside looking in and they're not like me, I'm all held up like what am I gonna do? You know, and that helps so much, and they give you a perspective and I am so like you gotta tell me, ask me the tell me the questions I need to ask these parents. And you know, I I'm that specific because I don't want to blow my top, and I think just having that outside help is life-changing. It is because it made me not look at the parents as enemies. Oh my goodness, they really want the best for their kids. They don't see that we have 350 or 380 kids that were, you know, 3,000 or whatever swim back has or whatever. They don't see that we have that. We have to worry about all that. They see their one child.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_04So that's helped a lot.
SPEAKER_00The swim brief podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Are you tired of not competing at your best? I've worked with countless athletes who felt that their mind was limiting them on race day. As a pioneer in the field of positive psychology, I have a unique approach. Instead of fixing what's wrong, I help athletes build an entirely new framework from the ground up, and I do it in as little as 12 weeks. I teach them how to make their active mind something that helps them. The work that I do stays with athletes long after we finish. Those that work with me get permanent results that go beyond their sports career. They not only bust through their current plateau, but learn what to do when the next one comes. If you know an athlete that could benefit from a complete rebuild of their approach, fill out a contact form at Chrisdcoach.com. Let's find out what they're truly capable of. Back to the podcast. Yeah, I I I want to highlight something that you said in there. Uh there's a there's a big insight that goes even beyond um talking to somebody outside. It's just talking to somebody else. I mean, just it there's so much uh there's so much risk in just tunneling yourself in. And like I I I I was thinking as you were talking about it, I don't think I think I would have benefited from somebody on the outside, but even internally within our team, the last place I was coaching at Wahoos, when I got an email like that, I would be sitting in the office and and Paul would be sitting six feet away from me.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And he would make me read out the email to him.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And in the course of it, he'd go, he because it wasn't directed towards him, so he could take it a little less personally.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Sometimes, right, sometimes. And then he would go, okay, what's the one thing in that email that we actually really need to respond to? Because you know, like sometimes people email you, they throw five things, and you know what? And this is bad, and this is bad, and this is bad. Oh yeah. You go my language, buddy.
SPEAKER_02I get it. Yeah, right. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And he goes, there's one legitimate concern in there that we really need to respond to and address. What is it? And so that would force me to stop and think and not get into defending myself from all the attacks, right, that I was perceiving coming my way. And over time, I think that did lead to better communication because you know, you're just not getting into these pissing matches with, as you say, people that are not your enemies. Right. They're there they're somebody you should be working cooperatively with, and you need to be able to work cooperatively with if you're gonna do this as a profession. Right.
SPEAKER_04Um well, that's the other thing Sean always said, Kate, they're your customers. So if you went and bought a pair of jeans and the the the person who you're paying cash was all mean and sniffy, you you're not going back there. And I go, good point. Yeah, they're the customers. I mean, and I'm not trying to make them cold because they're not, they care about their kids. And in our world today, you don't go bike riding by yourself, you you know, when you're nine or ten or anything like they did in my day. You'd go all over. But you get it. I do get it. I don't have kids, but I do have pets, but I get it why they're protective, I get it why they're very involved in their children's lives.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just want to note I do have a 10-year-old, and I did ask her to walk to her friend's house all by herself. Uh oh. Oh no. And I was I was feeling like, oh no, am I doing something wrong here? But I I I I I've experienced the same thing that you're describing. And when she came back from that, I could just see the confidence. She was like, Yeah, she felt over there.
SPEAKER_04Right, I can do it. It's okay, no one's gonna take me. Yeah. I mean, I had a young man who he's sick right now, and he said, I'm just glad it wasn't cancerous. I thought, what do you think about cancer right now? Like, you know, I I wouldn't even have thought of the word cancer back then. But their their world is a lot bigger.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And so they they have more to to worry about.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And that speaks to you you you you referenced, like you brought in, so this if you if we're talking around the time of Rachel, it was over a decade ago that you started bringing in outside help. And actually, this is something that I experienced, I got a lot in in my one visit. Brooks, who you referenced, um, and she's a licensed therapist. I think she's uh her her training is as a social worker. Am I remembering this correctly?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Uh I just so happened she was there.
SPEAKER_04She's something else, but yeah, I do have a social worker who works for us. But yeah, no, she's not. She's she might be, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00We're we're we're unfortunately not stating her professional qualifications fully.
SPEAKER_04Sorry, Brooks, if you ever listen to this.
SPEAKER_00If you're listening to this Brooks, but but hopefully what will follow will make up for it. Um, so I asked us, hey, can I go sit in on this? And you were like, Yeah, absolutely, get in there. And and she was very uh she was very welcoming, which to me is always a a sign too of somebody who's just like, Yeah, of course you can come watch because I'm really confident in what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, like really isn't having anything.
SPEAKER_00I always find myself a little bit suspicious in a coaching environment of people who are like don't don't, you know, who are like guarding the flame. They're like, what do you not want people to see? But anyway, yeah, she was very, very open. Um and again, just ran. I was really impressed by the the program that she ran. And I promise I'm going to get to a question here. Um, I guess for people who you know might be pondering doing something like that, beyond what you've already stated, what kind of benefit have you seen as a head coach from engaging with somebody like that? Like somebody like Brooks or somebody like Sean?
SPEAKER_04So in a month's time, we quote unquote lose two hours of swimming. What happens? Okay, that's it. In a month's time, because they go in our brooks every other week. We know so two hours of swimming to me is absolutely nothing. I to me that okay, that's that's nothing in the face of anything. And we know more than ever the mental state is probably the hardest thing to to you're not gonna overcome it, but to deal with it, to work with it, to live with it, and to figure out how can I make something how can I make something but in a dirt dirt, right? So how can I make something grow in here? And I think it's been the best investment we've made as a as a as a club. I would say it to everyone, bring in just someone away from coaches that they we I mean, she's a coach in herself, that's what she is, uh uh personal coach. But someone away from us or away from their parents with their peers in a place like that where it's safe. She's very laid back. I mean, she lets them almost talk if they want to talk to her. Like that would drive me crazy that I don't go in and listen. But um, you know, she's just that way and she gives them tools to work with. So they they're gonna go through it. We know it. They're going to go through these parts in life, in in practice, at meets, at home, at school, and she's giving them tools to provide them tools to use, which to me is I would give up more hours in the pool for that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I the I tell you one of the ways that I look at it, you talk about hours in the pool versus this, that, or the other thing. I mean, I think, you know, with anything that you're doing, and and you I I'm gonna even tie this back. This is just the way my brain works. Uh, you know, a free associator. I'm gonna tie it all the way back to you. At the beginning of this podcast, you're talking about, hey, these are age group athletes, these are developmental athletes. We're we're preparing them for every event on the lineup. I think sometimes when we get to the elite level of swimming, I've seen the model where people get very narrowly focused on training, like literally like physical, like swimming laps. Yeah, they go, like, let me see how many laps we can do. And I I I believe it's it's there's there's a lot you can get from that. I don't right, I don't discount it. Right. But at the same time, sometimes when you get so focused on one thing, there's all sorts of other categories that, you know, a little bit of effort would make a giant difference. Right. Versus another hour in the pool. Two hours into this actually makes a really big impact. I think people see that very naturally, like with something like dry land training. Like if you just have no dry land training in your club at all, and you just start people with like 30 minutes a couple times a week, you'll see a big difference because um that you're just sort of pushing on an open door. And I I think that with the uh so much with the psychological side of the sport, like the the need for support is so big, but there's one aspect of it that that you spoke to that I wonder if we could get even more into, because this is this part I think is a little bit more advanced, and I think it shows that you've been doing this longer, and that is you talked about like planting a seed of something. I think a lot of what people are doing in this space right now is actually kind of reactive. They're waiting for there to be a problem, and then okay, let's swoop in and dump resources versus what you're saying, which is hey, we know stuff's coming down the line. Let's do our best to prepare for that situation, to be proactive.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00Versus reactive.
SPEAKER_04Yep. And I think, and now oftentimes I'm reactive. I don't want you to think I'm only proactive.
SPEAKER_00Coaches, we all are, yes.
SPEAKER_04But I I remember listening, I I carry an acorn in in my backpack. It's lost its crown, but I carry an acorn because it was so beautiful in color, it it's just magnificent.
SPEAKER_00How long? How long have you been carrying said acorn?
SPEAKER_04Oh, probably four or five years.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04So uh, but I I heard about, I don't even know where I heard about, maybe I dreamt about it, I don't know. But I guess some athlete at the Olympics had an acorn. And I I love I just love the analogy of it because that acorn, I love the oak tree. It's like the roots are deep, it's incredible, it looks so incredibly magnificent, right? And we have them all over Minnesota oak trees. But you know, when you plant an acorn, it takes forever for that oak to grow. And I think we are an I'm the same way, we're in an instant society. We want it to happen now. And I I cannot say that Brooks is helping them right now, but I do believe in five years or maybe even ten years, they're gonna look back and think, oh, now I get it, right? That's what we want. Oh, now I get it. You know, I have kids coming back from college and said, you know, the coach told me to do this in the water. I thought, I told you that since you were eight years old. Are you serious? I don't say that anymore. I used to probably, but but I I do think there is that. And I think you wrote a blog something about oh my gosh, I didn't know you were such a blog reader, but you're right. I I'm not, I just read yours because I thought I want to read what this guy's saying. So seriously, didn't you read something like that?
SPEAKER_00I need slow is better than fast.
SPEAKER_04Yes, and I that's just not out there. No, because we want fast, I want fast, you know.
SPEAKER_00We want hacks, we want to get the most efficient way from point A to point B.
SPEAKER_04That's exactly right. I I and I get it, I totally get that. But I mean, I did tell a parent, I said, I I promise you when she's 30, she's gonna thank you for everything you've done, but she won't realize it until she's about 30. She goes, Do you think she will? I go, Yeah, I think she will. You know, because you suddenly, oh my goodness, they put a lot of time and effort into that. Like, oh yeah, my parents were actually pretty good, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I I, you know, just to to to to back up what you're saying, I I've spent a lot of time thinking about this because I I mean, just in my own life too, I I have at various points been so fascinated with the most efficient and getting, you know, carving just a little bit more efficiency. And, you know, uh, but I I use this analogy with another coach. I think with a lot of athletes, you can see just how much higher the performance level is at younger and younger ages. But sometimes I feel like we've put all these athletes, like we've put them in performance automobiles, like we put them behind a Ferrari. They've never learned how to drive. Like we just go, like, here's the Ferrari, hope you don't crash. And, you know, and if we had taken some time to teach them how to drive first, right, they could, they could take that car and and you know, drive it real fast and bend every curve and and you know, not crash and have as many problems as we're seeing, I think, psychologically with athletes down the line. But some of this impatience, I do think is contributing to to what people are seeing in terms of because you know it is it is almost a paradox that um we see so much more going on in terms of the mental health of athletes, and yet the performance level just goes up and up and up and up and higher and higher and higher.
SPEAKER_04Right, right, right. I mean, I I I was talking, so Gary Taylor, Thomas's coach.
SPEAKER_01I know Gary.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so Gary used to swim in Minnesota, and I was kind of an assistant assistant when he was a little kid.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_04Okay. And he was so skinny, could hardly make it through workout because it was outside, it was always cold. I always felt bad for him. But anyway, I said, Gary, you're doing an incredible job with Thomas. This is when he first started getting good. And he said, I just want him to be a kid. I want him to be a kid. I mean, now he's he's older, right? But when he I think he had just turned 15 or he was 14, he said, I I want to be a kid. So he wasn't going to doubles already, he wasn't doing this and that. You know, he he was just allowing to be a kid. And I do, I think your Ferrari example is so right. Like, don't I just had a meeting with a parent and he said, I'm not gonna bring my son to Winter Juniors UBS, he gets the cut. He doesn't need to go. Not right now, he's 14 years old, right? I mean his his meet would be a week after or something like that. So but I I look at that and I go, you know, there's something to be said with teaching him how to drive. And it could just be uh whatever, but if they make it to that Ferrari, which some will, at least they'll know how to drive it, right? And they'll know how to deal with speed, and it doesn't just because often happens mentally, they cannot emotionally handle it. And I think that's the thing that kills them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I I I think of as you uh tell that story, uh uh I was a head club coach once in my life, and it was in another country. I was a I was in Denmark. Um, and one of the swimmers I I coached her when she was 14, 15 years old. Um, she's just swum in her second Olympics. Uh she she didn't achieve that while I was coaching her, but when I started coaching her at that age, she was obviously an exceptional talent, right? Um she was 14 years old, she had been practicing 10 times a week at that age. And I came in as head coach and I said, We're gonna we're gonna go to six practices a week. And I remember the parents looked at me and they thought, You're completely crazy. How is she supposed to get better? And I said, if I can't make a 14-year-old better on six practices a week, you know, get the pitchforks and get me out of here. Right. Fire me. Right, right. Like it's just I just what a blessing for that girl. What a what a really I made a lot of mistakes too.
SPEAKER_04So don't well, who doesn't? I mean, that's our whole life, right? You keep will too, trust me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But that's I mean, but that's you know, that's why she was in her second Olympics.
SPEAKER_00I think so. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe it had a part.
SPEAKER_04You cannot. I had a a swimmer by the age of eight, she was already a state champion 24 times. You can't get where do you go from there? Nowhere but down.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You're gonna go down, right? You can handle that. But when she was 14, she's basically done with her swimming career.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_00Well, anyway. Anyway, it's been a it's been a great conversation. I'm so grateful for you for uh your amazing segues and your ability to just talk off the cuff here on a few things that I surprised you with uh and didn't let you explain.
SPEAKER_04That's how I do it all the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I always say, oh, what do you think? Chris is now going to give a speech. Well I am, yeah. The ones I work with, they're used to it. Yeah. Give a speech. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um it's been really great. I think uh my listeners, they're gonna love listening to this podcast. I loved recording it. So thank you so much. For everybody listening, um, a couple programming notes uh that uh Kate's gonna uh sit through patiently as we as we sign off here. Um Joel Schittenfeld at USA Swimming is is gonna come on this podcast very soon. So if you're a USA swimming club coach um and you have a question that you're burning to ask Joel, send it to me, swimbriefpodcast at gmail.com. I'm gonna be asking just questions because I'm not a USA swimming club coach. So like, you know, I'll I'll represent you guys, but I'll I'll I'll put uh Joel through the ringer. He's been really game to be willing to answer those questions. So swimbriefpodcast at gmail.com. Otherwise, if you want to get in contact with me, Christycoach.com, that's where you can go read the blogs. They're not on the front feed of the page, so you have to navigate, which is why I'm double impressed by uh I found him.
SPEAKER_04If I can find him, anybody can find him.
SPEAKER_00You gotta navigate to the blog page. Or if you follow me, Instagram, Christy underscore coach. Um, I usually upload them there to come out on a Monday or Tuesday. This podcast comes out uh usually on a Monday or Tuesday. Kate, once again, thank you. Thank you to everybody for listening, and I'll see you again next week.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Chris.