Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I am Chris DeSantis, and today I am joined by the assistant coach of swimming and diving at Boston University, Steven Anderson. Steven, how are you?
SPEAKER_01Hey Chris, I'm doing pretty well. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm really excited to do this. This is one of those podcasts, just for the people listening, where you know, sometimes I have a guest on. It's somebody that, you know, I just reached out to, and at most, we've had like a small conversation before they come on the podcast. In this instance, we had Chris Shepard on the podcast here a few weeks ago. You got a shout out on that podcast. You and I have worked together. I've I've coached you. Um so we know each other a little bit better than you're you're a little bit, yeah, I'm a little bit more comfortable with you than an average uh podcast guest. And um, so thank you for being willing to come on. And I think the audience is gonna really enjoy the discussion that we have on some of the stuff we have on tap for this podcast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. Yeah, and it's uh yeah, it's like I said, I'm happy that I can be on. Uh and it's funny, I think listening to the podcast with Chris left me wanting more because I spent so much time working with him, spent so much time working with you, I could probably listen to both of you talk about the things y'all were talking about for for a very long time.
SPEAKER_00So Yeah, you were the only person that gave it. I told I told Chris you were the only person that gave it a negative review. Everybody else was like, oh, what a great podcast. And you were like, you should have asked more follow-up questions, you know, which I appreciate.
SPEAKER_01Again, but that's probably like me knowing him pretty well. I would know the things that I want to ask.
SPEAKER_00Well, actually, one of my other listeners did have a follow-up question, and I've included it in the outline for what we're going to talk about today. But let's let's start from the beginning because prior to coaching at BU, if you listened, if you're a listener to this podcast, you listen to the Chris Shepard podcast, you know you were an age group coach there at Commonwealth Swimming. And so I want to ask what's, you know, like I don't think that a lot of podcasts, I mean, one of the pieces of feedback I get is on podcasts is people will go, okay, great, you know, you get Bob Bowman. I never get Bob Bowman as a guest on my podcast, maybe someday. But like people are like, great, Bob Bowman's on a podcast. I coach 12-year-olds, and I like, I'm trying to get them excited about the sport of swimming, I'm trying to teach them fundamentals, you know, all the stuff, the meat and potatoes of swimming, and he's not really talking about that at all. So I want to start with a question that gets to the heart of it, um, that I think that that you are well qualified to answer. And that is if you're coaching at the age group level, and then you coached age groupers that were very successful competitively, but as a coach, what is the right level of focus on results?
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess like I think saying results is probably not the thing at all, right? Like, so you said what's the best thing to focus on in terms of results? Like, truthfully, I think it's like right, it's all those things you were talking about before of like teaching and learning and developing that base and like thinking about the long-term growth of an athlete and and like the long-term growth of the human. I think most of us that are coaching are not uh coaching swimming because we think that swimming is the most important thing in everyone's life and they're gonna do it at the highest levels for the rest of their life. Like, um, I say a lot that like there are no 50-year-old professional swimmers. Um, there's some people who've gotten close, but like there are no 50-year-old professional swimmers, so like this is swimming in the water is not gonna be your career.
SPEAKER_00Um hold on, Brett Brett Hawk's gonna be 50 next year, and he swam a 50 on a relay at Masters Nationals. I think that's almost a professional swimmer, Steven.
SPEAKER_01Well, again, maybe I you know, I maybe I'm wrong, but I also think he's more of a coach, or at this point probably thinks of himself as more of a coach than a swimmer. Yes. So I guess like going back for like what is important for a 12-year-old, like the big thing is like figuring out what they want, like figuring out who who they are trying to be, because when you're like in that sort of like middle school age range, right, that that time, at least for me and I think for a lot of the athletes that are a coach, like that time sucks. It's like like that time is really hard for them as a person because they're like trying out all these different things, figuring out who they are as a person, and like and so it's like helping guide them to like to like they still have those goals of like I want to be an Olympian, I want to be an astronaut or whatever. And it's like we are in no place as age group coaches to ever tell them that that's not possible.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_01I've coached plenty of athletes who like I could probably tell you they're not gonna be an Olympian, but but like if they still believe that, like I think the biggest focus is like cultivating those sorts of things and cultivating that sort of belief and like tending to that garden as much as you possibly can because those are the things that are gonna help them achieve at whatever level, doing whatever thing that they want to be doing for the rest of their life, like especially like talking to parents. I've talked to parents who are like have told me, like, my kid's never gonna be an Olympian, so like why are we doing why why are we moving them up to maybe doing a couple two-hour practices a week? And it's like you would never tell me your child is not gonna be an astronaut, so why are we doing this extra math class? So, like, why are you limiting your kid right now to 12 and like limiting their growth potential? Because I I will never do that, and I think that that's like that's the like right focus, I think. In terms of like in turn, and I guess if I think about that, then like it the goal can't be on your age group championship. The goal can't be on making like the zone team or whatever, because those things don't matter. Like those things are like little stepping stones and they're incidental, right?
SPEAKER_00They're incidental to what you're doing. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01They're the stepping stones, the like process to get to where you actually want to be. Because, right, when you're 12, yes, going to the age group championship is a huge deal and it's freaking awesome, and that's great. But also, like if if that's the end goal, and you've reached it at 12, then what are we doing next? Like what are you know? So like so uh process at that level, or like the outcome at that level, the results at that level, I think are not important. I think learning how to learning how to be at those types of needs, learning how to like warm up and cool down effectively, learning how to right, like do multiple events in an obsession, learning how to have a really bad race and then like being able to learn from it, not just like crime from it or whatever, right? I think those are the things and like I'm not kind of revolutionary in any means by thinking these things, but like those are the things that I was teaching all the time, and those are like every time we were at a meeting, every time we were doing something, it was like right, you might have asked really happy for you, that's awesome. I find but like what did we learn from that? Yeah, so like those are the things that I think are really important at that level.
SPEAKER_00I want to go back to something you said because it caught my ear, and I'm I'm wondering if I can get you to expand upon it a bit. Because you started a lot of this by saying like you're you're helping kids figure out what they want. And immediately I'm thinking, both as a parent and as a coach, you know, something that I encounter now is, you know, like part of being a kid is that right, you haven't fully developed what you want. Many adults have not fully developed what they want, right? They could use some help to figure that stuff out. What do you think philosophically, right? Because I'm sure you have many kids, if you go like, hey, do you want to play video games, or do you want to like be breathing hard and feel pain in every part of your body for two hours? A lot of them are gonna go, well, what I want is to play video games. That sounds like a lot more fun than going to swim practice. So, how do you approach that in terms of coaching kids at that age, you know, knowing that they may represent wanting something that's immediately pleasurable, but you have this sense of like, yeah, but you know what? You might actually really want this thing that is is really a delayed gratification experience.
SPEAKER_01Well, I um and I think that really is like a philosophy question. Like, I think that's something like in my when I was in college at a liberal arts college, like those are the types of questions I'd have to think about a lot, which is really fun. But like um, and it really goes into like what is what is like being a good human, what is being a good person? And to me, it's like trying to be the best version of yourself that you can be. Um, I think like that is that's the baseline that I'm working off of. Like, great, I want you to be the best person that you can be. And and truthfully, like if video games are that thing for you, then great, let's figure out how to do that and make that make make that a learning thing so that you can be the best version of you possible. I suspect based on your question, you don't believe video games are those that types of things.
SPEAKER_00And like, I don't need I I play video games, just so everybody knows. I do play video games.
SPEAKER_01I do too. I need to, but like I play them to unwind, not to sort of like fulfill my being the best version of myself I can be. Uh I guess sort of actually. Now that I'm thinking about that, different tangent. Um but but like that's why that's why like people need coaching and people need like especially at that like younger age, they need to learn how to like want something that is like unattainable for them right now, and figure out like the little steps to help you get there. Because I think a lot about the helping people throughout a season, throughout the course of their like time within swimming. I want it to be a net positive experience for you, and that's something I learned from Chris Shepard. But like each day is not gonna be a positive experience. Ever like every minute of every day at swim practice is not gonna be like the most fun thing you've ever done in your life. But like learning and growing and dealing with hardships, like those things are gonna be a net positive on your life, and you're gonna learn from them, and you're going to be able to become a more resilient, better person, which like and I think that's easy to sell to parents. Probably it's hard to sell to kids, but that's why if you can get them to believe it, like or get them to continue to believe that they can be Olympians or they can be like high-level athletes and like achieve at all the levels that they see on Instagram and TV and whatever, like that can still that can like hold that fire, that can like propel them or whatever through through the some of those hard times. And so it's like, yeah, I I I value I value sort of like working really hard and like growing and failing and all of that kind of stuff. And I think trying to teach kids to value that is really important too.
SPEAKER_00Something something that I was thinking about as you were talking, that we we spent, we put a lot of emphasis on at my last coaching job, uh day-to-day coaching job at Wahoo's was we were reclaiming the definition of fun. Right? We wanted kids to have fun doing the sport of swimming. But so many times I think when when we think of fun, we think of pleasurable activities. Like when you think about a swim team and you go, Oh, we're gonna have fun at practice today, it's like we're gonna play sharks and minnows, or we're gonna play water polo, or we're gonna do something other than actually the day-to-day stuff of swimming. And and part of what we were trying to reclaim is coming to practice and working your butt off is fun. It's it's a different definition of fun, but it is fun, and that's the difference between pleasure and satisfaction. That feeling that you have going home going, I did absolutely everything I could today to be the best version of myself. That is fun, but it's not what a lot of people think of when they think of fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's and it's I mean, yeah, it's not what I think young people is fun oftentimes. And I think like right instant gratification is something that is like with phones in kids' hands at younger and younger ages, with like schools being taught uh to like be taught sort of for tests and to like, oh you passed, you failed, dude.
SPEAKER_00Gotta or whatever. Right, constant evaluation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that like uh I struggle with this personally wanting constant evaluation. And I know like me being uh like 20 years uh older than some of the kids I'm coaching, and now it's like 10 years older than some of the kids I'm coaching, it's only gotta the want for that has only got to be more. Yeah. But if you continue to like look at those small little like every single day, oh, did I get better? Did I get worse? Whatever, like or like retesting every single day. If you do that all the time, it's gonna be impossible for you to actually see progress. It's gonna be like pretty hard for you to actually make progress. And it's like not iting is hard, and it's something that we taught.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Let me ask you another comment. Then let me ask you this follow-up question about Commonwealth while we're while we're on the subject here. You know, I had somebody afterwards go, like, Chris, uh, just doing the math, you were asking the right questions about how big the team was, and then how many kids were at the top? They've got to be cutting people. Did that that happen? Did you guys like sort of tell people like, uh, you're just not gonna cut it at the top group here before they they got there? Or how did you handle like essentially moving people up? Because again, the top group you had there was very competitive. What was the approach?
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess like taking a step back from that, like thinking about what each different group, and there's really like four groups. There's like an eight and under group that's like a couple days a week that's really like kind of like learning how to swim all the strokes and stuff, and then there's a group that is like a competitive group that is like the 10 um 10 and ours, but there's some 11-year-olds there, so there's some 12-year-olds in that group. And then there was the like 11 to 14 year old group, uh, which is like real like truly competitive, where we're trying to get better at swimming. You're sort of narrowing down the sports that you do, and swimming's becoming sort of like if you're at the higher level of that 11 to 14 group, swimming kind of becomes the s your sport at that point. And then there's sort of the senior group, which is a there have been 14-year-olds in that group, there have goes up to 18-year-olds, and you know, in the past, there have been people who have been like in college, not at a college swimming with them. Um so so that's like how it how that groups break out, and I think like the goal of each group is to set you up to be successful as soon as you enter into that next group.
SPEAKER_00So like anytime like within a club program, it's like that jump is oftentimes like big and challenging and scary and hard. Yeah, the transitions are really hard. This is this is something that I think a lot of people could afford to be more thoughtful about, or just transitions in general. Like any team you're coaching, you got groups all over the place. Transitions are very, very hard. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And I think like that is not the main goal, but that is a goal of a lot of the kids in our group, is like, I don't want to be in the next group. Like, I want to be in that next tier of athletes so I can start working on these different things that I'm working on. Yeah, but I think like part of our jobs as different coaches and the way that we are set up is like you're not gonna move into that next group if you're not ready for it. Because if you're not ready for it, it's trying to like teach calculus to someone who doesn't have algebra down, you know. So so we're like like making sure that you're you're going to be as successful as possible in that next group. And I think like that same thing's true for that senior group. It's like making sure that they're gonna be as successful as possible when they go into college so that they can be leaders on their team, so that they can be right like uh scoring individuals for their college team so that they can be well-rounded people and uh positive additions to that team. But anyway, sort of getting back to like the question. Uh yes, get to the question, Steven. Sorry. No, we like we didn't cut people. Okay. Like we would take people in and like ideally, if we could get people in when they were young so they could learn like every single lesson that we're trying to teach until you get up to that senior group, that's like ideal. I don't it's like not as ideal to get fast kids to want to join the senior group because they've missed a lot of the like lessons that we've tried to teach as a team going into that. But like just because you turn 14 or just because you turn 15 doesn't mean that you get to be magically in the senior group, or just because you turn 11 doesn't mean you automatically get to be in that group before that, right? You have to be able to like be able to be in that group, and so as frustrating as it is, like when I first took over the like 11, 14-year-old group, right? We had a 16-year-old in that group that was and it was hard, and then did like it was not as fun for them, but like it was my job.
SPEAKER_00So they're separated from their peer group, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it was and it was like my job to like, okay, what can we do for that person to help them be the best that they can be and like get as many lessons that they need out of this? Because they still want to be here, they still want to be swimming on this team. So, like, great, how how do I help this individual be like an insanely awesome leader for their younger teammates? Right? So, like once they jump into the senior group, like it's hey, like you already know how to be a leader for this group, like you've been doing it, just keep doing it. Yeah, and so so I think like the the team size doesn't like because we don't have cuts, like it's up to you if you want to continue to do it or not. It's like your commitment level, and but we're gonna be pretty up or they were gonna be pretty up front. It's like no, you you can't go into that next group because like you can't do a 400 im or whatever, right?
SPEAKER_00Like, so if you if you can't complete a 400 im, I cannot have you in this next group where like we do that for warm-up sometimes, you know, like so it wasn't a matter of making cuts, it was a matter of being pretty disciplined about what people had what level people had to get to developmentally to progress.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and like and and I will say like there we had an athlete who when I first started coaching, I was helping helping out with the senior group, helping out with that like younger group. And there was an athlete who was quite fast. He ended up, he's now swimming at a like power five or power four division one college. So he was 14, he was a really good breaststroker, would have been the best breaststroker on our team, and he was not like invited into the senior group because he wouldn't do pullouts. So, like right, so like it's like great, you are faster than all like some of these kids, but but right, like you need to be able to do pullouts to be in like do I do pull-outs in every meet one, but also in practice, anytime we're doing breaststroke, if you're not doing pullouts, like no, you can't be in the senior group. That's crazy. Like, I don't think we were we would have helped him develop as a swimmer, as whatever, if he if we like let that happen.
SPEAKER_00The swim brief podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Being a coach is isolating. You know that saying that it's lonely at the top? Well, for many coaches, that's reality. Being a coach means everyone has an opinion on what you're doing. It takes work to filter out the noise and make the best decisions. You need to be able to think through plans, ideas, and problems proactively. At Chris DeSantis Coaching, I fill that gap for coaches. I'll help you turn every rocky moment into a slingshot and provide the support you need to be at your best. You deserve to have someone in your corner, and everyone on your team will benefit. If you want an expert to have your back in your coaching career, go to Chris Dcoach.com right now and fill out a contact form. You'll get an hour of my time at no cost to you. You don't have to go it alone any longer. Back to the podcast. Yeah. Okay. Now there's a big change afoot in Commonwealth. And I promise we're going to get to college stuff at some point, but this came across since I recorded the podcast with Chris just a few weeks ago until now. I actually captured a moment in time. I perhaps captured the last moment in time that they would be a tiny little engine that could of a team. Because Chris texted me a few days ago and he said, uh, by the way, that 75-person team is now probably going to be more like 450 people. Um and so what I what I guess I want to ask you is I want to get your take on going from a small organization to a big organization. I had somebody on here that I recorded yesterday that said, oh, we're a small team, only 250 people, which by the way, a median-sized USA swimming club is 100 people. So that's actually an average-sized team. Um, if you're below 100, you're you're below average. Everything bigger than 100, by some definition, is actually a big team. So they were they were a small team. They're now going to be a really big team. And I think the challenge when you scale up everything that I hear you describing, it's like you guys were able to work so closely together and have so much continuity between everything that was happening. Like Chris was so involved in all levels of that program and everybody that coached in that program. So what do you think with them expanding? What's your what's your opinion as as they make that move? And you you know more about it probably even than I do. I've just got some text messages.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I guess like the thing that I will say is like you probably need to get Chris back on Chris King because he'll be the expert.
SPEAKER_00I'm sort of like I'm I'm but we have you here now, Steven. You'll be answering the questions.
SPEAKER_01I do, but but I guess like right, like I don't know exactly how it's gonna work, but I do know, like, I know all the individual, like the people who are coming together are like-minded individuals. Um, like I'm really close with the uh solo coaches that are becoming Commonwealth. Uh like text and call them all the time to ask for advice, to ask for help, whatever. Same thing with the the branch that's gonna be down in like Southern Dest and Rhode Island. Like, I know that like their value system I know their value systems because I know that I don't know exactly how this came to be, but I know their value systems are similar that they care about like helping develop people be the to be the best that they can be. And I think that they it seems like they're to uh do this for the better and not only their individual teams, but I think that they see a really awesome opportunity for New England swimming to ground and develop from this. And that's all I like really know.
SPEAKER_00And I'm speculating a little bit, but so we brought you on for your for your for your speculation. Um, all right. So I promised we would get to you being a a college swim coach and peppering you with questions about developmental age group swimming, but you are actually a college coach right now. Um and one of the I'd like part of this podcast is almost just a way for me to process all my own thoughts about my own coaching career through conversations with other people. And one thing I've been thinking a lot about recently is I've realized, you know, all of a sudden I have a critique of college coaching, and that's and that is that I think that the the developmental system for coaches in college is kind of broken. And I will say I'm taking a shot, lest anyone think I'm taking shots at other people. I'm actually taking a shot at myself because I essentially went directly from swimming in college to coaching in college. I was never a developmental age group, like really at any consistent level before doing that. And now as I look back, I go, that was a mistake. And I don't know whether you agree. I mean, you may have a bias because you've taken a different path to getting there. But so my question is, what, in your opinion, having recently been an age group coach, now you've been a college coach, you were a volunteer, then you this past year you moved to full-time during your second year. What do you think carries over? Like, what do you see and just go, like, yep, coaching is coaching? You know, whether it's 22-year-olds or 12-year-olds, coaching is coaching. Um, and and what's different?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I think like I heard someone else say this and it was like a light bulb moment for me. Um I will continue to say it and believe it until I like until I stop coaching, until I stop working with young people. But like the similarities between especially that like 11 to 14 year old range and the like going off and going to college are like so similar, right? Like when you're in college, you are you are an adult, basically, but you're in that first level of being an adult. But like when you're like I was saying, when you're 11 to 14, you're in middle school, you're finding out who you are, and you're trying to figure that out, and then when you get to college, it's like the same sort of discovery, but you're finding out who you want to be, and like building up those blocks of like who is it that I want to be for the rest of like my life? Because it is sort of like you get to change, you get to leave your high school and like all the preconceived notions that the people around you have, and you get to like for some people it's like uh shackles are lifted, and you get to like truly be yourself. For other people, it's like you know, I was always kind of shy, and like I really want to be a little more outgoing and like try that, and and so like from that sense, like you're still helping young people develop and be the best versions of themselves they can be. And I think like every coach does that at every level, whether it's coaching eight-year-olds or whether it's coaching like 30-year-old professional swimmers, right? Like, if you're not helping them try to be the best versions of themselves that they can be, like you're kind of doing a disservice for them, I think. And so, right, like the similarities, and I like I've actually realized like I've made some terrible mistakes this year with just assumptions I've had.
SPEAKER_00I wouldn't say they were terrible, you're being too hard on yourself. You haven't been there.
SPEAKER_01So, like, I so I'll give you an example.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I've missed some terrible mistakes, is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_01So so so like so I uh and like the biggest one, and it's it's terrible because I've I've fallen into the trap that I just talked about where like I wasn't able to help some people be the best versions of themselves that they can be. So like to me that's terrible.
SPEAKER_00Uh and I would say less than perfect. That's that would be my reframing of that.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Well, but and so what I'm saying is like I remember starting this year where I had a like I was first of all paid, which was great to you, but also like in charge of some stuff, and like in charge of workouts every day, which like I was a little bit well as a volunteer, which was great, but you know, I am one of the two full-time coaches on staff, so like it's Buck sort of stops with me. So I came into the season and the whole year with a bunch of assumptions on where people would come to me with. Like they would have some baseline knowledge and stuff, and really it's like I was assuming they were coming to me and I taught them all the things that they needed to know when they were 11 or 14, and like the way that I would want to teach them. So like my language like I assume they understood my language around certain things, I assume they understood my like why I was doing things for certain things, and it wasn't until I had an athlete this summer who's here, they're taking EMT classes, other summer classes, working at the pool, like they're busy as heck. Yeah, but they but they were here this in the mornings and we were sh like they were like wanting to get better, and I was like, I love that. Let's get better, let's figure it out. I had like such an online moment of like I'm asking you to count your kicks off every wall because like I need like we that's a death point that we need that I assumed that you were like knowing that because with then we if we know what we're at at every wall, then we can actually make a determination if we need to pull back or move forward or whatever. Right. And they were like, oh, I've never thought about it like that. And I was like, Oh my goodness, I'm such an idiot. Why have I not thought, like, why have I why have I just been assuming this, right? Why have I not been having these conversations? I've been trying to run what I need to be walking, right?
SPEAKER_00Um Can I tell you the funniest, funniest story that I have from my coaching career in regards to something like that? So I was working at Georgia Tech, and the first big recruit that I landed at Georgia Tech was a a Swedish guy. I went straight to Scandinavia to find a really talented athlete. It was a uh a kid um named Anton Lagerquist, and he had been 216 in Long Course 2 Nebraska. So I was thinking like this guy can come in and probably you know vie for an ACC title. And by the way, he did win an ACC title his sophomore year, but this is this is in his freshman year, and he was just a very good swimmer for our team. You know, we we were we were struggling at that point. So I was trying to get him ready to be able to do anything, race anything, right? Um, trying to generalize his training, and I was actually trying to get him to be ready to be on an 800-free relay for us because I thought he could probably go 130 something, um, and we could have really used that in 800-free relay. The problem was he had, like a lot of European swimmers, I'm generalizing a bit here, very bad turns. And and he had a very slow stroke rate. And so one of the pieces of feedback I was giving him over and over and over again, I said, Anton, you gotta get your turnover up. Like, get your turnover up. You know, like like let's let's start moving here. Like it's too slow, get your turnover up. And I was giving him this feedback over and over again. And finally, we're on training camp. So, like, this is like I started coaching in September. We're talking December, January, and I go, like, Anton, what are you doing? Come on, man, get your turnover up. And he looked at me straight in the face and he goes, Coach, I'm flipping over as fast as I freaking can. And that was the moment that I realized he didn't know what I was talking about. For three months. Yeah, so at least at least you had it was only three months for you. It took me like nine months, but that happens in coaching. Like you just go, like, you have that moment where you go, shoot, that thing I thought I was communicating and I was tearing my hair out. Why aren't they getting it? Why aren't they listening? It's because they had no idea what I was saying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I and I think that actually goes back to like the similarities between coaching those two groups. You're still a teacher. Yeah. And I think I and I think it's not that I forgot that, it's just that like that was not like when I was coaching 11, 14-year-olds every day. I was like, I know every day I'm coming in, and I'm like and work like a whole bunch of our other coaches were teachers, and so like I'm trying to learn from them, I'm trying to be the best teacher I can be, and like help develop them as much as I can. And then when I like started, I was like, great, like I'm not a I'm not really a teacher anymore. I'm doing this like I'm I'm like we're working at different levels or whatever, and it's like, no, we're still teaching, I'm still trying to get them to be the best people that they can be. Right. And it's like my ignorance like stopped for me and for them. So I'm because of that, I'm like, I'm excited about this upcoming year because right, it's like every year I've every year that I've coached and every year that I've like been thinking about you know like helping young people, I think I figured out and then it's like, oh man, nope, that was I was an idiot last year, like we're gonna get better this year. And I think like that's like that's the goal, and that's the goal that I'm trying to teach them. It's like, yeah, if you're the perfect version of yourself, if you're the best 500 freestyler you can absolutely you can be right now, well then what's the point and keep going? Like you're done, you're gonna be like hopefully you're not the best you can be right now. That would that would be kind of scary. And I think and I think speaking to that, I think that's one thing that was like the first thing that I recognized with like older athletes, college-age athletes, is like the belief that they have in themselves that's like unwavering of like I can do anything in this sport. Oftentimes by the time they get to college, it's been like beaten out of them because there's always someone better because they know how to look up results in every swim meet ever. Because they are like, oh, I know what Caleb Dressel is doing, I can never be Caleb Dressel. And it's like this is another thing I learned from Chris, and I don't think he's unique in it. But like if you believe you can do something, you're right. If you believe you can't do something, you're also right. So like great, that that has to be the number one thing that I'm like teaching and helping athletes with. Like, you gotta believe that you can do anything, right? You gotta believe like like the guys on our team right now are like, man, I really want to go 19 in my 53. And I'm like, I really want you to go 17 in the 53 because that's the new standard, right? Like, how do we get there? And if you fail at 17 and you accidentally go 18-7, like that wouldn't be it wouldn't be too bad. That's way better. Yeah, that's way better. Or like, oh my goodness, you fail by two seconds and you go 19, like that's awesome still.
SPEAKER_00Um I one of the ways I look at this, what you what you what you just described, uh, because I I do it all the time in my work, is I think every athlete, every person, you really have two kinds of confidence. At some point in your life, in any given category, you have ignorant confidence. You don't know any better. You don't know that you can't yet, right? And so you just have this blind like confidence. Like I remember it as a swimmer. I remember looking at somebody else and going, I'm going to the Olympics. I had zero, like zero, zero, zero, zero, one chance of ever making it to the Olympics. I didn't come anywhere near it, but like I had that ignorant confidence that I was like, yeah, why not? I can do it, right? And then at some point, like, yes, as you described, you're you're taking in a lot of college kids, and they've had that ignorant confidence beaten out of them, right? They've run into plenty of situations where it's like, uh-uh, it's gonna be a lot harder than you think, right? And so what I end up working on so much with people that I coach is then you actually have to work on earned confidence. You actually have to develop like that self-belief that doesn't just because you can't put that genie, you can't become ignorant again. It doesn't work like that. I mean, unless you unless you get like a head injury or something and forget, like you, you're not gonna you're not gonna become ignorant again. And I do think that sometimes people yearn for that. They go, oh, it was so much nicer when I didn't know how hard it was gonna be, or you know, what my limitations were, or this like can I can't I just go back to that time? No, you can't. There's only one path and it's forward.
SPEAKER_01I'm actually gonna stop you there because like athletes don't know what their limitations are. They think they know what their limitations are, but like they don't. I one of my one of the people that I'm gonna do. That's a good point. I I'll at least take that. And I still talk to like they I remember them asking me like while I was coaching at BU and while I was coaching Commonwealth, like while I was volunteering at BU, they asked me, like, so what do you think like what's the baseline limit that a person can be? Like, are they junior national like is junior nationals the baseline for everyone if everything goes perfect for them?
SPEAKER_00If you have like the lowest level of swimming talent, but you do the most with it, where can you get to essentially? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So so and it's like, and I remember like that, I was like, man, that's such a good question. And I was thinking about it and I was like, huh, what is that baseline? And then it like and then it like has clicked over the past year of me thinking of like, like, what is the limit? Why am I thinking about the limit for anyone? And like, because it doesn't matter what their limit is, but like you ever you can always get a little bit better, you can always be a little bit better, you can always be a little more proud of yourself, you can always be a little more confident. Like, so it is not worth thinking about what your ceiling is. If like at the end of the day, most likely you're gonna break through that ceiling, right? If you continue to like do all the little things and trust and believe in yourself and all that kind of stuff. But I think putting a limit on it is only gonna hurt you as an athlete, and only gonna hurt you as a coach, probably too. Like, if I look at an athlete, I'm like, oh, you know what? I think like they could set our team records and like that'd be awesome. And it's like great, but like what if they want to set NCAA records? Like, or in like well, then what am I doing to help them with that? All I'm doing is like putting a limit on them that they have to overcome my limitations for them. And so it's the same thing that like like what I was talking about with like young people, and like their parents are telling them I like they're not gonna be an Olympian, right? But you're not gonna tell your young, like, you're not gonna tell your young athlete, like, oh, hey, you know what, you're not gonna be an astronaut at 12 because you have no idea. But the same thing is true for like 21-year-olds, right? Like, I I've worked with some people who are thinking, like, oh, if I go up best time, that's like the best I'll ever be able to do.
SPEAKER_00And it's like, well, if that's you go, you're you're nowhere near your actual potential, like you're nowhere near it, and you're thinking, like, oh, I'm just scraping right at the top. I think you have a great point about that, that most where most people think, and I know like I had many moments in my own athletic career where I go like like I'm basically at my at my limit. I can't progress any farther, and like it'll take a monumental effort to just scrape out a few more tents. In reality, there was a like a chasm of potential beyond where I was, right? And it just, you know, just the thought that I was like close to it was necessarily limiting. So I do think you have a really good point in that. I guess one of the ways that I look at it too, and Charlie Kennedy on the podcast recently, we're we're talking about this very topic, is I do think it's useful to like to think about where your path is blocked and then be creative and go, okay, well, I'll just go in this direction, and that's how I can keep progressing forward. Rather than, you know, you're like, you sort of like keep grinding against something, and then you have that feeling like, oh my gosh, I'm at the limit of my potential, when there's some other path available to you where you could just run. You could just, you know, sprint ahead, essentially. And I I think that is really like a coach's job. A coach's job is to show people, like, okay, this area where you're putting all your energy and you feel like you cannot possibly squeeze more juice out of it over here, you can just progress, right? Like, and here's the path for you. Um, and like, let's go, let's get on it together.
SPEAKER_01And and I think like oftentimes the job of a coach is to remove some barriers for the athlete that they don't think are possible to be removed.
SPEAKER_00Right. I couldn't possibly, yes, you can here. Let me show you. Yeah, yeah. Or whatever, right?
SPEAKER_01Like, right, like got to work with an athlete who like is really she's a very good breaststroker and have never really swung butterfly before and they're a college-age athlete, and it's like, whoa, this is so exciting because we get to try to swim butterfly and figure out how we can be the best butterfly we can be, and like and like I believe truly, if they're gonna get better at butterfly, there's no way that's not gonna help their breaststroke, right? If you're gonna learn how to move through this foreign substance that you're not used to in a different way, and you're gonna learn how to be efficient in that, right? Like, how is that like that bare minimum is just gonna make you stronger as an overall human, right? And if that's the bare minimum, like that's freaking awesome, let's keep doing that. And probably, like, I have no real evidence, I'm not a scientist, but like you're gonna learn how to move through the water better, and you're gonna be able to be way better at the thing that you've probably been like smashing your head against the wall of like, how do I get better at breaststroke? How do I get better at breaststroke? And it's like maybe like getting better at breaststroke or getting better is like not about doing the like little incremental things and like retesting every day, but it's like doing something totally different and then coming back to it, or taking a break, right? Like taking a couple, like a month or two off from swimming in general and then coming back to it, like you're only gonna come back to it and be better and happier and whatever.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. The the only swimmer that I qualified for at the AA is at at Georgia Tech, he came as a breaststroker and he qualified in butterfly. Yeah, yeah. I mean and he never improved his 100 breaststroke. Imagine if I at a co as a coach had just gone, well, let's just keep grinding away at that breaststroke. You know, I think he would have left very frustrated. I would have been very frustrated instead. He left on this huge high note. And because there was this green horizon, um, and and yeah, he got better at other stuff as well as a result of doing that. Um, so I do think there's that there's a point in coaching to getting just helping people get unstuck. People get to points where they think, like, I'm stuck, uh, there's nowhere for me to go. And showing them somewhere that they can they can go and take their energy is is really, really important. The swim brief podcast is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Are you tired of not competing at your best? I've worked with countless athletes who felt that their mind was limiting them on race day. As a pioneer in the field of positive psychology, I have a unique approach. Instead of fixing what's wrong, I help athletes build an entirely new framework from the ground up. And I do it in as little as 12 weeks. I teach them how to make their active mind something that helps them. The work that I do stays with athletes long after we finish. Those that work with me get permanent results that go beyond their sports career. They not only bust through their current plateau, but learn what to do when the next one comes. If you know an athlete that could benefit from a complete rebuild of their approach, fill out a contact form at Chrisdcoach.com. Let's find out what they're truly capable of. Back to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Like, much like I have. Like, what like what are those similarities that you think there are, and like what are the big things that I'm probably missing? Right? Like that that I should be thinking about that I'm not.
SPEAKER_00This is the point where Steven warned me he would he would turn the tables on me. And he's asked me a very hard question. I wish I'd gotten time to prepare. So let me let me do my best to think about this one. You know, I guess I'll go back to the reflection that I started this conversation with, right? That I I do think that I missed something by not coaching at a developmental level before college. And what I view is, you know, when I was a college coach, and it's a very much a closed ecosystem. So like you almost entirely interact with other college swim coaches. And what that creates for you, in my opinion, is a lack of empathy for other coaches. And so that's what I that's one of the things, and it happens on the flip side as well.
SPEAKER_01So like when I became that more like what do you mean by that lack of empathy?
SPEAKER_00Well, so like I'll say I find it in club coaching as well, and that's a more recent experience for me. So I'll describe what it was like. But once I became a club swimming coach, you know, the conversation we'd be having would be like, oh, we're sending these kids off to college, and like the college coaches are just fucking it up. Right? They're not they're not progressing, they're not improving, they're coming back to us, they're out of shape, you know, they don't seem interested in swimming anymore. And I guess because I had the experience of being a college coach first, always in the back of my mind, I thought, is that really it? Is that really it? Like that that all the people up there are just idiots that don't know what they're doing? Or or perhaps is there something that we don't understand about how we're preparing kids to go to college? Is there something we don't understand about what is going on in college swimming that's beyond the control of your average college swim coach? So I guess when I when I think about empathy, I'll get to the definition because you asked that question, which moved for me to define it a little bit more. Empathy for me is always understanding somebody else. And I think a lot of people resist understanding other people because they think that if they understand, then they have to accept everything that another person does as right. So they they think like, oh, if I if I understand what it's like to coach at BU, then I have to agree with everything Steve does. No, you don't have to agree with everything they do. You don't have to say that everything they do is right, but understand what they're going through. Understand why they do the things that they do. To me, that is that is empathy. And I think it's hugely important. I would urge coaches to cultivate relationships across this divide. Because at the end of the day, it's so weird to me, honestly, that that college coaching is a closed ecosystem because it's so small. Already the coaching world is so small. We are actually like a tiny little community. Even somebody I reference as so distant, like as Bob Bowman, I'm at most one or two degrees separated from him. You are probably too. So like we are a tiny little community. We can't afford to have clicks within our tiny little community, is sort of how I look at it.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I guess like thinking about that, like I agree with you almost like 100%, like it's been really funny like going from club to college. Like, I have a lot of connections in the club world, but I'll ask a lot of questions to that better coaches than I do. Like I'm striving to be as good as them one day. Talk to some college coaches that have like never heard of them and don't know who they are, and they've like put people on the national team and like these like within maybe we put someone on the national team, but like clean very long time. So, like, why couldn't we learn from that? And I also feel like there's both parties seem to value each other differently. Um just in terms of like talking to my mother who knows nothing about swimming other than she thought I was the best swimmer ever. Um my mom was just the same, yeah. Yeah, so so she values holds more value for me coaching at a college level than she did for me at a club level. Right. Because she thinks it's like like she thinks there's like it's it's better. And so it's more prestigious, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And like and I think to me, that's where I think a lot of the the divide comes in for both levels.
SPEAKER_00Like this might be like slightly controversial, but it's like Oh good, we love controversy here. Let's hear it. I mean slightly, right? Oh, only slightly. Okay, well let's hear it anyway.
SPEAKER_01But like, like I and this is also probably me being a little ignorant, but like I think my time as a coach coaching before college is undervalued in from our like college world. Same thing is true on the other end, right? Like, I think coaching at a like being a volunteer coach and like learning at the college level, right? And like spending a year there, I think that that it's it's is overvalued at some points, and you are allowed to or you're allowed to, but like you can get jobs for that, and there's it's been probably because there's just like less jobs in college than there is in club coaching. And so like being able to get one of those is great. But it true it reminds me of my time in banking a lot of like these clicks, and like if you work out if you work in an investment banker at one of one of these jobs, you're automatically better.
SPEAKER_00And it's like you got that Goldman Sachs internship, you're the man.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and I think like um and I've fallen into that a lot too, and like and I think that when I before I started coaching, like when I was in swimming in college, I think I was thinking about that a lot, and I had to really develop like why am I doing this? Oh, I'm doing this to help young people become the best versions of themselves possible, right? And I can do that at any level, and I can do and I'm confident in my ability to like help young people become better at at any level and like that should be what we're doing as coaches, right? I think if we think about Bob Bowman, like I hope he's still trying to do that with Leonard Sean, like become the best version of himself possible, like and I hope he's like learned like from you know, like I I assume Bob Bowman thinks he's probably made some mistakes in his life, and like if he isn't growing from that and learning from that, and then helping young people become better, right? Like, then Michael Phelps would be all of his records would still be there, and he would never have coached anyone better than him. So, like that's awesome that like he's been able to learn and grow and be able to help young people become better versions of themselves. So, like, I think that's true at every level, and I think that's probably why everyone got into coaching.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you make a great point in there about the undervaluing. I I think what spurred me on to say that I think something is broken with the developmental side is I am looking, you know, like I'm I'm an observer of the college off season, of the the hiring and and firing season. Um the further I get away from my own time coaching, the more I'm kind of flabbergasted because I have an awareness of who is interested in some of these jobs from outside of the college system that just don't get a look. Like I hear from people and I'm just like, why? Why didn't they consider you? And it's like they've just sort of filtered out all of these talented people. And at the end of the day, I know from my own college experience, I go the the the part of it that is truly unique to college. I'm sorry, it's not that hard to learn. It's not. Like it's it's you gotta get good at some paperwork. And like recruiting is a big part of that, and I think that's not necessarily paperwork, but like but you can learn to be good at recruiting pretty quickly. I don't know. Maybe I'm maybe I'm under understating how hard it is to get good at recruiting, but I don't know because to me, recruiting at the end of the day, this is this I'm coming at it from a business perspective. Now that I work for myself, one of the things I realize is recruiting is sales. Recruiting is is sales. Like you're it's like working in a sales department. Um, that's by the way, one of the reasons I I feel pretty confident when I have to have to make a sale because I have that experience recruiting. But coaching, if you're a decent coach, you're good at sales. You have to sell every day to 12-year-olds, like, hey, you know what? You should come to practice five days a week for two hours a pop and really invest in this. You have to sell to parents, hey, you know what, it's worth it to spend thousands of dollars a year every year for your kid to be on this swim team. You don't, you may not be aware that you're selling stuff all the time, but you are. You're just walking in confidently, like, of course you want what I'm selling, right? And I think that's 90% of the game. People, people like twist themselves in all sorts of knots and recruiting. Oh, I've got to make the phone call every week, and I've got to be on top of this, that, and the other thing, and you know, I've got to out-hustle everybody. I don't know that that's necessarily true in terms of recruiting. Like it's almost understanding what you already know versus creating something that's foreign to what you already know.
SPEAKER_01Well, and so you asked Chris this on that podcast with him, but like, what are you looking for in an assistant coach?
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_01But like, what are like truthfully, if you're in a small organization and all swim teams are small organizations, even if you're in the biggest club in that like country, I don't know what it is, and I don't really care. But like there's n they don't have like a hundred coaches, right? And most college teams have I think you can have like eight or something. We have two full-time coaches and a full-time coach. So like I think the thing is like because there is sort of a disconnect and like people don't really talk to each other as much as they could, like you need to be working with someone who you can work with or you know you can work with, and I think like that's probably where that disconnect comes from. Like, right, like it's really difficult to hire someone who you have no personal relationship with, who you are never gonna have to spend 40 plus hours a week every day, like taking one-on-one interactions with them, trusting them with your the people that you work with, and trusting that they understand your vision and that your visions are aligned, and it's like so so, like, in some ways, like I think from myself as a job, like trying to get into college coaching for a while, yeah, it's super frustrating.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, but in other ways, like I understand it too. There's small little organizations, and it's really hard to like what value can I add to you if you have no idea who I am.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, one of the observations, so we're gonna have to wrap this up soon. We're gonna we're gonna run out of time. Sure. But one of the observations, like, we got a uh political campaign going on right now. Both candidates have recently chosen for president of the United States, have chosen their vice presidential candidate. And what I've heard in analysis of that is okay, like everybody else can can decide like what they think about this, you know, how it influences the campaign. But on a personal level, if you're running for president, this is a person that's gonna be in on every meeting that you're doing, you're gonna have to have lunch with them once a week. Like, it's actually quite important that you just like spending time with this other person. And I think you're you're getting to that in terms of hiring, and that's one of the reasons why you and I spent some time on it. I was giving you the advice because I said, like, look, if if you want to potentially work somewhere else down the road, and a lot of people in college coaching, I'm not Steven's not looking for other jobs. I'm just giving him advice for the long term. Nobody freak out listening to this part of it. I'm just giving him long-term career advice. I said, it's worth it. Like essentially nobody gets a job in college if they apply blind for a job. That is like they wait for the official job posting and they send in their resume and they go, like, here I am. Do you want to hire me for this? Like, you you have a pre-existing relationship with whoever is hiring. That's how it works. They write because it is small and because they don't necessarily have the time to find you on the fly as they're hiring, right? And vet you for like, is this a person I'm going to enjoy spending a lot of time with doing a lot of things together with? Yep. Um, I have one last fun question before we wrap this up, just because I like to get goofy in like the last two minutes of this. Okay, since Olympic trials, Steven, has anybody asked you what you think about how it's going to be to work with Derek Torres? Good question.
SPEAKER_01So, like, I won't be working with her, like when you're going to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00I'm just, you know, people get the B U B C thing mixed up all the time. I'm just wondering if you got any text messages that were like, oh, Derek Torres is your new boss.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think, well, no, I luckily I didn't get that. But like, I think from like our standpoint, we're super excited that she got that job. Because he's a really good base to me. I think it's a really good rivalry that we have. Like, we've raced each other a couple times every year, and she's gonna bring some really good excitement to that program. Uh really like positive publicity right now, it seems like it at least. Maybe not from everyone, but like from our standpoint, that's what it seems like. So we're excited because hopefully like the team will be around for a while and they'll be strong and they can like continue to compete at that level. But no, I haven't had anyone ask me if I have any excitement over my new bots.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh okay. Yeah, no, I think I'm hoping too. I'm hoping for BC too. I mean, as somebody who grew up in the Massachusetts area, it would be great to see that program reinvigorated. And I certainly I was scared that it might go away given what's happened there in the last few years, and it it seems like they're committed to something. So, Steven, it's been a pleasure having you. Thank you for uh being willing to do this and and for your thoughtfulness on everything. Uh this one's gonna come out while I'm on vacation, so you also help me prepare for my own vacation. And if you want to reach out and give your thoughts on the podcast, you want to inquire about coaching, you know, swimbriefpodcast at gmail.com, Chris Dcoachcom, you can fill out a contact form, or you can find me on Instagram, Chris D underscore coach. There's always to reach me, plenty of ways. All right, thank you guys, and uh we'll see you again soon.