Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I am Chris DeSantis, and I am joined, as I frequently am, with no awkward introduction this week, Joel Rowlings. Joel, how are you? I'm doing well. Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you too. Uh, excited to record another podcast, excited to give the people what they want. Or maybe, uh you know, I was thinking about this. Do we really give the people what they want in this podcast, or do we do we give a very limited set of people what they really, really want, and everybody else we just basically tell them to screw off? Is that what where where do you fall on that?
SPEAKER_01I I thought when you were gonna say that you're rethinking people and you're thinking more like person. There's like maybe a person actually listens to this. Yeah. You always tell me people do. I I don't believe you. Well, until I got hate mail once about the streamlining thing. But other than that, all good.
SPEAKER_00We have diehard fans, and I I have come to the conclusion that I would rather have ten die hard fans than a thousand people that kind of like this podcast. So we're gonna keep we're gonna keep doing what we're doing. Um this is uh this is an educational podcast for for coaches. And well, let's get into it.
SPEAKER_01You um Yeah, so I was out there, I was actually listening to a podcast the other day. Um an entertaining podcast, unlike our entertaining podcast. And um, and yeah, it's about like basically like uh they're talking about Navy SEAL training and why there's a this was Jocko, a Jocko Willink podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was about um it was just kind of a throwaway segment towards the end of one of his uh talks about how they were looking at attrition rate with Navy SEALs because it was so hard to predict who's gonna stay in, who's gonna stay out. You know, you'd be you'd go through and you'd see these people that are physical specimens, top their class, and then you know, tapping out or ringing the bell. I mean, and then uh the other, you know, other people that you wouldn't suspect making it through. And so one of the things they they still don't really know, but one of the things that they talked about was basically like if you think about like all the different lenses of people that have around you. So how you view yourself, how you're in in this they call it the cadre, or or your team views you, and how your peers view you. And so the example they used was that if you know you view yourself as you know just a tough guy, but a terrible athlete, and everyone else views you in the same way, those people tend to actually do fairly well in the training. It's when the lenses are out of alignment that um that things kind of tend to go awry. And I was thinking about that um as I was talking to some of my team this week, like um just verbal comments about themselves, just talking about how like you know they get very negative on themselves and they can't when you know they're not getting a time they want to go or whatever, and you think about how many times they're hearing that voice in their head of negativity versus uh what's going on around them. And so I was thinking about the same way where if they're viewing themselves as someone that's not capable of um, but their teammates do view themselves as capable, they you know, they're not gonna get picked up very much. If it's gonna be like, well, you know, he's great. Why, why, why should we, you know, go, you know, try to pick them up or try to encourage them, they're doing they're doing fine. Or the same thing, you know, with their own intelligence or whatever it is, what whatever again that that lens might be. Anytime there's an incongruity between those, you're like, I think that's when we get in the most trouble with with our team. And so that's the kind of the topic I was thinking, I'd like to hear your perspective on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, so I can tell you one of my personal experiences with this, uh, especially since I made the transition to Chris DeSantis coaching. And you know, there's really been two iterations of that, the first one in 2016, and and now since January of this year, I remember, like, you know, at the beginning of any work with any group, uh, there's always a time to introduce yourself, right? Um, and essentially what you're doing is you're telling the story of who you are. Like, what is it you want people to know about you? What is it um you're starting to define their perception of you, and if I put it in the terms that you've discussed. And I definitely at the beginning of what I when I was doing this, I would go out and I would talk about, you know, that I was a competitive swimmer and then comma, but I wasn't very good. That was something that I just unconsciously just sort of spit out of my mouth. Um and it was I think an instinctual thing that a lot of people do that you want to be sort of self-deprecating in that way, because especially for me, like the audiences that I was going to, I mean, I was uh in in in the beginning almost exclusively working with Division I swim teams. So these are people who have achieved at a higher level than I did in swimming. So I felt this need to sort of like yes, I would qualify the fact that I was a swimmer, but like sort of take myself down a notch. Um and I've stopped doing that because and and I've actually spoken to a lot of people that I've coached about this, about the the way that they represent themselves, because if you are sort of taking, if you're sort of kneecapping the perception of of yourself and other people maybe in some way look up to you before that, well, like what are they supposed to then think about themselves? Like if I look at somebody who um has achieved a lot in the sport and they say, Well, I'm not very good, what what should I think about myself? I'm I'm awful, like I'm I'm the worst swimmer that's ever lived. Like you you don't really this self-deprecation, I think it comes instinctually. You think it's like pro-social, you think you're actually, you know, fitting into a team environment really, really well, but it's quite the opposite. It it contributes to the misery of other people. So that's sort of the argument um I've started to make against it. And now when I go out to teams, I'm pretty proud. Um and just pretty overall kind of focus on what I what I'm proud of um in swimming and and what I continue to be proud of.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I um one of the things that that I brought up to the team a little bit is um the previous stop where I coached, I had a swimmer that was excellent, swimmer. Um really, you know, she she won national, she set a record. Um, and so when she had a bad swim, she'd be like, that was awful, that was terrible. People would come up and be like, you know, no, you did you did you did great, nice job. She's like, that was terrible. And and so again, it it immediately creates that hierarchy where well, if if this, which is already six seconds faster than your your nearest teammate, you know, is terrible, then then what are we? So it immediately kind of created that gap, you know. And so I would I would talk to her about that. Like, listen, this is again, I know what you're saying, it um, but but I this is what your teammates are hearing, and this is where where we need to kind of make the adjustment like that. If she had a a swim that was off for her, but still like six seconds faster than than her nearest teammates, no one was gonna go up to her and say, it's okay, you know, because they're like, I the this one woman I had on the team, she came in and she's like, I dream about going that fast someday, and she was miserable with that. And I I would say, well, it's like let's say you're uh what whatever the time is. So let's say you're you're double on the breaststroke and you want 106. Yeah, you want to do other time. But what if you're a 112 in the 100 breaststroke and you went a 118 that day? You know, it's it's the same feeling regardless of the time. And actually, I was just talking to a teammate uh last night when the swimming um she was in there uh competing with with with a bunch of the other teammates, and she was like six seconds behind them, ironically, in uh uh in a set we were doing, and she's like, I just don't belong in this lane. And I'm like, well, this is the thing, is like you do, and and everyone believes that you do. And that was the incongruity where like she was really struggling and she was really starting to beat herself up because she was like six seconds behind. And we we talked about how like um I heard another podcast. No offense, I listen to entertaining podcasts like this. Um, about this.
SPEAKER_00I may listen to a podcast or two myself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01This marathon runner, they're like, you know, you do ultra marathons. Who are the athletes you respect? He's like, the people that do four-hour marathons. He's like, because I I'm done like at least an hour and some minutes ahead of them, you know, and they're still out there giving the same effort. So the heart rate is still up high. You know, everything that's going on inside their body is just what I was going through, but they have an extra hour of it. He's like, that's nuts. I can't imagine doing that. And so this way I kind of related to that story to them. It's like, what whatever your teammates are doing, if they're touching the wall on a 58 and you're going a 104, you had six more seconds of pain than they did. You know, it wasn't like you were you were lounging around, it was like you were going just as hard, but you're going longer. And just kind of shifting that a little bit was enough to kind of nudge her back to think, okay, yeah. And and the the again, that that perception you could see like it was starting to spiral and it was it manifesting itself in the performance, where all of a sudden it was getting worse and worse and worse. And so you're thinking internally, you know, every minute she's just you're terrible, you're no good, you can't do this, you can't do that, and just beating themselves up over and over and over and over again. And people on the outside obviously not knowing that that struggle is going on.
SPEAKER_00Right. I I what I hear in that, because we've we've talked about this particular example before, but now I'm looking at it through a different lens. What I hear in that example, you talk about uh a swimmer that's just way out in front. Um, and I work with a lot of athletes that are um they're really good. They uh and one of the things that makes them really good is they have really, really high standards for themselves. And you know, like I think that you can hear that in that story, right? You know, if if you uh if if your best time is a double O in the 100 breaststroke, then your your high standards dictate that 105 is terrible. It's it's it's it's a disaster. Well, I one of the things I when I coach uh that I try to help people shift towards is away from that judgment of like that is terrible, you can do that analysis on your own. But if you're gonna be communicating out in a team environment, let's focus on the emotionality of what's going on, right? So let's say uh I'm like I'm brutally disappointed in that time, right? Because I think every swimmer, regardless of what level they're at, like that's a little bit more relatable than that is terrible, right? For somebody who goes like I would dream to go that fast, but everybody can relate to you know being disappointed in a performance. That's that's like on a relative scale, and I think it goes back to what you said at the beginning that that that perception outside matching um the perception you have of yourself, it just seems like fairer in a team environment. It's fair enough to have emotions about what you're doing, to think that certain stuff is good and certain stuff is is not, but those moments where you try to sort of play objective adjudicator of whether that was good or not, I think are are almost destined to ring false with the people around you. Um because it's so much easier to objectively like look at another person than it is to do it for it's it's nearly impossible to do it for yourself. That's why that's why we do things better in cooperation. Um, that's why therapy exists, you know, like that's why all this stuff is out there, that's why coaches are really important. Um so I I I I think that's one direction um you can take. But I I guess my question I would throw back to you since you're the original um source of this, you know, I I wonder when we're having conversations with like this, whether it doesn't come across that we're, you know, sort of anti-competitive or you know, like we we don't quite fit into that hyper masculine model for um competitiveness. And it strikes me like you your source for this is Jocko Willink. Seems like uh a man's man, uh, everybody's uh sort of stereotypical definition of masculinity. How did he comport that um with some of the stuff we've been talking about here?
SPEAKER_01Um I'm not really I'll have to think about that a little bit because I'm I'm kind of thinking about a couple different parts of that question. One thing like anti-competitive thing, one one of the parts was it was again flipping it again, where we're always like we have to pick up you know the slow person in the lane, or the person who's struggling the most in the lane, or the person who's you know not able to do whatever the goal was that you asked them to do, um, versus the idea that you know what, everyone needs to pick everyone up in a sense. You know, it is you can't just go, well, that person swam fast, therefore, everything in their lives is is going to be really good. You know, the sun shines a little bit brighter on them every day, the rain isn't gonna hit them in the head, and they're gonna be just happy with every single swim they did. And so what I was seeing from that end is the the ultra-competitive one wasn't getting the team to kind of pick them up. You know, they weren't getting the person to rally around them. And so from the competitive point, I was like, well, we can't have this either. You know, you can't have the person getting left behind, but you also can't have the person who's out ahead. Again, you're we're all we're all going to find a tea a person on our team that's gonna be faster than everyone else. It just has got to happen at some point. You know, there's gonna be someone that's just faster in an event. It's like they have to still be pushed, you know, they have to still be pushed and they still have to be encouraged. And and so that was that was my aspect of it, too. Is like it's not always like, you know, it's not like the Serengeti or something like that, where we're picking out you know, the weak zebra and just trying to figure out how to get him to the front of the pack. We want the front of the pack to keep moving too, you know, and so we have to figure that out as well. But I think in the in the thought about like the the chocolate willing podcast is is the idea again that it didn't matter. They just if I if I reference that example again, that they said, I was I'm tough, but I'm not athletic. So the idea is like if they're in SEAL training, obviously they they are you know one of the top one percent. They are high achieving, they have some excellent skills. What I think was the interesting part again is the idea, like for them, it was you don't want to be the the one in in that training, at least in this example, I didn't go through it, obviously. It was was the idea that um you didn't want to stand out either direction, you don't want to be the fastest person because they'd be on you, and you don't want to be the slowest, you know, you want to be in in the pack, you know, you want to be someone that's capable of doing all things, someone that was like again, can can do things, it's gonna be dependable, and that was the the attribute that you're gonna look at the most. And you want it to be someone that again that your team knows that they're not gonna have to carry you and that their team's gonna know that you bring something to the table. And you don't have to be the best at something, but again, that you have your business taken care of, and that's where that ultimate respect came from. You know, they're not looking at you know who who is the guy that won every single event or whatever it was. It's basically who on that team is gonna be dependable. And I think that's again when we're talking about what we're looking to establish in a team is we want that dependability, we want that trustworthiness. We want it so that again, you you want everyone wants the high performer, and they want a high performer that's very trustworthy. And then the other end of the spectrum, you've got you know, the high performer, you know, maybe that's not that's not very trustworthy, that's you know, not going to class, or that's you know, not always pushing themselves, or negative in practice. You think about like both of those, the the one that's not very trustworthy, and just using that as like a catch-all kind of bucket for for you know negative attributes, is is the the person you want least on the team, you know, because they have the highest influence over so many people and they can really bring a team apart. So basically, what you want in any team, I would assume, is someone that's gonna be dependable and trustworthy, even if they're low performers or high performers or whatever it is, you want that dependability, and I think that becomes the attribute that is the most desirable, and that's the one that you want to encourage the most. Um, because again, that's like you said, no one you don't really know who is trying to emulate you, and you never know who's looking up to you. You never know who that person's following. And so when you have that person who's you know wins the races, doesn't go to practice. You're like, this is the most destructive thing you can have. Because it's like, well, what's the point of me practicing? You know, they they start to all those things again where those lenses don't line up, I think that's when they start to really start to fall apart there because you start going, well, everything you've said is a lie, you know, because this is that guy is succeeding, you know, versus the well, he he could be succeeding a lot more, and now you can't say that either. This you know, in these these days because that gets back, and all of a sudden you got to deal with their parents, and they're in how dare you put my son down in front of the group. It's like, but it is, it's one of those things again when they're when they're when all you have is a time in a sense in our sport, and it's like, well, that is success or that's failure. Boy, you're swimming faster than me. That's obviously a success, doesn't go to practice, doesn't do this, doesn't do that. And that's I think what I think that's kind of the the big thing I that I took out of that was the idea again, dependability, and like you said earlier, was looking for something rather than just the you know, this was terrible. Looking for the I'm disappointed in not doing this. And again, people that listen will be like, oh, that's really soft. But but again, just just switching the words a little bit really uh shifts the weight of those words quite a bit.
SPEAKER_00Well, I so as you're discussing all of this, the trustworthiness and all that piece of it. I mean, I think one of the things I was having a conversation with uh a Division I college coach recently about recruiting, and one of the things he was saying to me is he's like, I would love to get a better system, and I think it speaks to what what what Jocko was was uh talking about as well. He's like, I would love to get a better system, a filtering system up front. Because I'll tell you what happens in every class that I recruit, and this is a he was a men's only coach, he said I get one guy who's essentially a walk-on who ends up being the best swimmer in my class. And then, you know, like I have other people that I'm you know that are valued at like you know a really high level coming in, and at the end of four years, like that their their contribution is not necessarily that of the person who's essentially an afterthought almost in in the recruiting process on the front end. And it's like, okay, well, if it if they're getting really, really high, like really, really valuable members of my team is I guess another way versus high performing. But really, really, I mean, those these are also guys who um are just great teammates to have, you know, the type of person that comes on essentially as a a walk-on and then leaves as one of the best swimmers on the team. That's somebody who typically is extremely bought in throughout a positive presence, um, somebody who is is locked in, you know, like in championship season. Everybody would want more of those um people. The question is, you know, how do you filter better for it? And I I I hear some of the answer. You know, I don't I don't promise I know a hundred percent, but I hear some of the answer in what you're saying. I think you have to have a sort of like if you're on any team, you have to have an idea of like, you know, what is the minimum level of performance where this person can come on and be competitive on my team. But I think beyond that, the people go straight to like, okay, here's minimum level, and then I'm just gonna try to get the highest performers on the other level. End and I think I think they've got it backwards basically. I I think that actually there's a lot of value in recruiting then to looking for people who independent of even the sport of swimming are really invested in the school. Like that that if they broke their like I I I at Georgia Tech I would look for this. I would look for kids that if they broke their leg and never swam again their first day on campus, they would love the experience that they got. Right? Because I think the synergy of that, that those people that are just like really invested in the place that they're in, that's gonna carry them through a lot of stuff. And and swimming in college is extremely difficult. It's extremely difficult. It is a system shock for so many people to come in and have this really big ramp up in terms of personal responsibility you need to take for yourself. And um, you know, sometimes I don't think we think about like having some redundancy in the system for those people so that you know they're having a really good experience outside of the sport of swimming, and then that the feedback loop of that back into what they're doing swimming-wise.
SPEAKER_01Now, I think just from my experience with coaching some of the Division I uh people I've coached with was the idea too, like they if they felt like they were overlooked by it by a big school, whatever, whatever school that might be, if they felt like you know they were somehow uh you know not given the chance that they deserved, and that you know they you know that first year at the other school, they do really well. So I'm gonna show everybody wrong. I'm gonna prove everyone that I should have gotten this scholarship, I should be at this place, et cetera, et cetera. And then they would do well first year. And by second year, though, it's kind of like that that that drive fades, kind of like enthusiasm fades, that like resentment kind of thing, and like I'll show them fades, and then they start being like, I deserve more. And again, it's not all the time, you know. Like you said, you sometimes you get kids there, they're gonna do great, but the ones that I saw again that that would have the most difficult time towards the end of their careers in swimming would be the ones that all of a sudden felt like whatever they were given wasn't matching nearly as much as they felt they deserved, you know, and so they that that level of entitlement, I think, also kind of the idea of those lenses not not adjusting correctly, where there's like, I am a fantastic athlete, and this person just didn't see me like that, you know, and then then all these other athlete lenses start to drop too, where all of a sudden internally they start to change a little bit as far as their perception of themselves, like I've been railroaded, I've been whatever it might have been, and and they become very angry and bitter about things, and then their career starts to go down, and then they're just not the greatest teammates I've seen. Um, and so again, I think that's why, like again, that that perception, all those different layers, it's so hard to keep them lined up because obviously you want motivation and that chip on your shoulder. You know, we always kind of like look in the sport as the people with the big chip on their shoulder, those people doing the best, you know, the Tom Brady's of the world kind of thing, where they're still angry to this day about being a draft pick like that. It's like and we always hold up like that iron, like that that's the guy. That's that's everyone has to have that. And you're like, well, obviously not, because there's one. And a lot of other people that that chip, it doesn't just it's it's it'll fuel them for a little while and then almost kind of consumes them a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Right. But even in that Tom Brady story, I mean, like, you know, again, whatever he was um second string or third string at Michigan, I've forgotten at this point, you know, he wasn't getting a lot of reps. But I would venture to guess he was he was thrilled to be going to Michigan, right? He was he was he was invested in being on that team. And I like I I know what I'm suggesting in recruiting. Like, there's a bunch of if there's if there are college coaches that listen to this, they're just like, yeah, okay, Chris, sure, whatever. Um, but I I think that like, you know, I I I I heard about Bob Bowman. I use Bob Bowman as an example from Asuka. Somebody intended his Ask talk, and uh they said a real funny line about recruiting. He said, you know, like if you're in recruiting, you you have to get used to hearing no, unless you're Eddie Reese, you know, and he got like a good like laugh out of that joke. But I I'll just use that as an example. I think if you're Bob Bowman and you're recruiting at Arizona State, I think it's possible to find kids that are good enough, that are like meat, that are going to be competitive on your team, that given the opportunity to go to Texas, would still go to Arizona State. Right? That would still choose Arizona State because they actually believe, like they actually believe that Arizona State is the best possible place for them. And I think that in recruiting is absolute gold. Because in the story you told, like the people who feel like they're overlooked, those are people who like, you know, they they want they wanted to go to Ohio State so so bad, you know, but they ended up at Ohio U or whatever. And you know, when they get good, they're like, well, I deserve, like, I still want to go to Ohio State, you know, like that's what I deserved. I'm good enough. I've proved I've good enough. And, you know, I if you're the coach at Ohio U, you're like, I helped you, like, I helped you get to that level. Like, why are you so ungrateful for the stuff that we've done together? But I I I think you know that that it is possible wherever it is you're recruiting to find people who are genuinely just really happy to be at the place that you are. And I think does it is it is it a um is it a immediately reactive process? I mean, I think recruiting overall, most people are highly reactive, they're constantly caught, like, get into the next cycle, let's find the best swimmers. And probably to create that, it it requires a heavy investment on the people that you have on your team currently, you know, so that they actually have a really good experience there, so that you can bring people on campus and they can see somebody on your team that they relate to and they go, Wow, like that that could be me. You know, and that's why this is the best place for me to go. So I don't know. I mean, I I may be a little overly idealistic in this, but I yeah, I I am.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I you know, it is it's like you're you're gonna all go find Rudy or something like that. But I I think one thing as you're as you're talking there, uh, is um we always think of like a couple different styles of of recruiting. You know, the the the the coach is like the happy go-lucky guy when it comes to recruiting, and then on deck is is the 180. You know, and we know all all too many examples of that. And uh, when I worked in Texas for a little bit, I'd be I I didn't swim for any reason or anything, but we'd we'd get some kids that would come through that program, we'd switch into ours or being recruited by. I think the one thing that that worked out really well is obviously he's a very genuine person, and he was very straightforward as far as this is what you're gonna get, and this is what you should expect. And basically, you know, the the the recruiting speech of the person that I knew that swam for him was that you're gonna get an opportunity to compete, you're gonna get books here. If you go this fast, we'll be able to we'll be able to bring you up to a higher level of scholarship. Um, but that's how it is. And and um the guy missed the time needed for the the next level of scholarship by like a couple tenths of a second in the mile. And he's like, you know, I was wondering about the scholarship. Like, I'm sorry, I can't do that. Again, is it the line was drawn, this is the expectation, versus I think like we were talking about the incongruity of like how athletes see themselves, teammates see themselves, but also I think the coach and the athlete, where where all of a sudden, if the athlete thinks that the coach was promising a lot more than they were going to deliver, there's gonna get that incongruity where the person's not gonna be very happy on the team. Or if if you as a coach, and I've seen this a lot, is if you're expecting, well, this person is whatever, double O, and I think they can go at 52, you know, all of a sudden they're going 56, like, hey, I'm going my lifetime best by four seconds, like it's not 52. And so there's that incongruity where like the level of athlete that I see you at or I predicted you to be is far lower than what I'm uh seeing. I think you get that as well, where all of a sudden there's this kind of underlying disappointment, even though you don't mean to. It's like you know they're going lifetime best. You're like, Yeah, but I thought you'd be faster, you know, the whole time. Or in the case with division one, and we've talked about this too in division one, it becomes a transactional relationship where I'm giving you this amount of money. I expect this amount of value, and you're not living up to that level of value. You're doing fine for a half scholarship, you're not doing great for a full scholarship. You're not fulfilling a full right. And so anytime there's incongruity from like self-perception to team perception to head coach's perception or even family perception, either direction, plus or minus, you know, that that uh I think that affects it. So, like, like again, if you're recruiting, like you said, you're your ideal candidate, if that if their perception of themselves is, you know what, I'm a I'm a decent swimmer, you know, I'm a hard worker, and I'm a I'm a decent athlete. And the coming in the program, the coach is like, he's a hard worker, decent athlete. Expectations are are are aligned and it's going to probably work out pretty well. You know, but again, if if the expectations are I'm a fantastic athlete, and you come out and you're coming in last all the time, those are the people that that I guarantee will leave the team within two weeks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, I have one last thing I want to ask you about, because I was thinking about as you were going through some of these various scenarios, because I'd be very interesting to interested to hear what your answer is to this. Um, and it comes back to this idea of perception. I was coaching uh an athlete yesterday, and uh one of the things I always help athletes to do is um just with the way that they relate to their coach. And um I uh I listen to whatever it is they want to say, and I'm just curious um because I think it's so valuable to that the opportunity that I get to to not be somebody's like direct day-to-day coach and to hear about you know their perception. So I I came across a very common thing that we sort of we know it's out there. We don't necessarily always get to hear a kid just uh thoughtfully walk through it. And um this girl was talking about her coach, and she said, Well, I mean, I of course he's got he's got favorites, right? And I, you know, I I I listened to her talk for a little bit about you know who were his favorites and what I asked her, you know, sort of like what does it mean? Like, what does it look like when somebody's the favorite of the coach? And you know, a lot of it goes back to this stuff where, you know, yeah, the coach's favorites in her estimation were the kids that were the most serious about practice, that were the most committed, came to the most um sessions that took feedback uh to heart in the course of practice. So uh, I mean, like, not that I usually stand in judgment of these coaches, but I'm like, that sounds pretty, pretty, pretty good to me. Um but I thought back to my own coaching. How do you how do you think about balancing? You have a situation where you're coaching a team, the best athletes on your team, and I mean best by the criteria I just said, the most consistent, the hardest working people, the most sort of into it, serious people, and that means that you're investing, you're just quite naturally like in a coaching relationship, investing back in them. Do you do you also like are you also harder on them? I guess is where I'm headed with this. Do you also feel like it's necessary the with the people that you might be giving a little bit more attention to to hold them to a higher standard than others as well?
SPEAKER_01I think what I've seen is is um is sometimes I I it becomes one of those deals where I I assume their goals are like nine out of ten. They're they're ten, you know. And so I'm like, I gotta make sure they can get those goals because they put so much in this, I've got to give back that much to them, and so I want to give them a 10. And so the idea is is again, if I'm pushing, you know, you always want to push just hard enough, you know. Like like my son, like when he was like uh learning some table manners, he'd get like two Skittles. And like some of the parents are giving me you know crap for like two Skittles, like it's enough to elicit a response, that's all I want to give them. I don't want to give, you know, we don't need juvenile diabetes just because I want him to like chew with his mouth closed here. And uh so the same thing there is like I'm I'm trying to like figure out the the the the correct amount to kind of push. And so sometimes I wonder, again, you know, do I want this more in a sense than the athlete at this point? And and again, just the just that idea, again, the idea is the lenses not aligning really kind of got me thinking a lot the other day with with the coaches I see that burn out the most are the ones all of a sudden that want something even more than their most dedicated athletes. And I've seen this a lot too, coaches at the end of their career where like, I'm going every morning, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and you're taking off an evening practice for homecoming, and it becomes one of those things where like they they melt down almost, even though this is the most dedicated server, the hardest working, then they take that the hardest because now they've left let down the coach. They've got you know, they put enough pressure on themselves, and then all of a sudden you're like, I've given up all of this, and now you're not even gonna do this. And I think that that's when I see the coaches hit hit that burnout the most, is again, and that's that's where I'm always trying to think again, right? I think you do end up pushing a little bit too hard on the highest end ones. Part of it's because you have more time with them, you know, your your travel meets, they're they're at the wall first, you know, and that that's what I've always thought about was like um when I first started coaching a high school team, I remember there's this kid on the team who's there for three weeks, and like, I don't think I've even talked to this person. This is the first year I ever coached because I'm talking to the people that are there at the wall first, I'm there talking to people that are at the wall last. People kind of in the middle of the pack, just doing their job, I wasn't giving enough attention to. And it's it's one of those things where you just try to make sure that I give enough attention to everyone that I say something to someone every day, but always kind of thinking like, again, how much are we pushing here? Is it is this is this because my idea is they have to be this fast, or because they really want to go this fast and they want to be pushed at this level?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, the the way I think about it is and and look at it is that I think it's always important to give context for your actions. You should never assume what people know or think the context for what you're doing is. So for instance, um I've never been a fan of like administering training um as as a punishment. Because like I always uh I'm very clear to you kids, more training means you're doing it means you're doing well. It's not it's you don't get more training because you're not thriving in the training that you're getting. Like that is essentially it is a reward. More training is a reward. You the the the way that that the the the system I have built, like if you're getting more training, it's because you're doing a good job with what you've been given, right? Um to go forward. And I think the same way about those moments where you say, like, yeah, like you you you push a little bit. I tell people, like, that's that's something you earn. You want to be pushed, because I get kids all the time, they're like, You're not pushing me very hard. I go, Well, you're not working very hard. Like, you gotta, you gotta, you this is a relationship, it's gonna go both ways. You want to get pushed harder, give me a little bit more, and I'll push you a little bit harder, and we'll see, we'll play that tennis game, we'll see how far we can take it, you know? Um but counting on people always giving giving people like a bid to hey, what if you invested more, yeah, I will invest more in you um in this situation. And sometimes me holding you to a higher standard in practice, or not sometimes, all the time, that's actually a sign that I think you've invested more. Um and and and making that context uh uh clear for people because I certainly I think probably just like any other coach, uh I I guarantee that the swimmers had a perception of who my favorites were. Um and uh but I hope that um people recognize too that that that came with a healthy dose of um Chris uh asking you to do something more because you were in that position.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think uh in a previous life when I was coaching Ellis or like people say, like, you got favorites, like, yeah, I do. You know, again, why why argue that point? You know, again, it's like one of those things where like, yeah, I've got favorites. And it has nothing to do with like me wanting to go to the movies and hang out and get a cup of coffee with them. It has everything to do with what they're bringing at practice, and that's something everyone's able to do. And I I really some of my favorites were the most mean kids I've ever seen, you know, but they they were awesome at anchoring relays. Or, you know, some of my favorites was just those kids that just came every day, had you know, wanted nothing to do at all talking to me, just wanted to get in and go. Awesome. You're my favorite too. And it was one of those things where it's in a uh again, I I think like I remember that that Jimmy Johnson quote where it was like basically, yeah, of course I treat everybody differently. It's like you you you have to, you know. Uh, but but it is it's one of those uh again where where their their perception of you, uh part of it is I think again where that goes awry is when they they think that there is an unfairness to it. Like again, like no matter what they do, there's no way out for them to become someone that's gonna be successful in this program because you've you've given everything to that one person. There's no way I can achieve any of that now. Yeah. So again, yeah, I guess the whole podcast is just about kind of again, like you said, the context uh of what you're doing and why you're doing it, and and maybe having to overexplain things in this day and age. Um, but I but I think it's it's it's worth the time and the energy to do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right. Well, I think that's a good stopping point for us, Joel. I know um uh we got uh big days ahead of us. You gotta you got you got plenty going on. I'm gonna be heading up to Princeton here momentarily. Um been doing some work with their men's team this year, and uh they're doing a scrimmage against Army today. So I'm actually really excited to see these guys compete. And uh because it's one thing to to sit in a classroom with people and and talk through various things, but for me, it's uh uh I'm always really, really curious to see what people are actually like in a competitive environment. So uh get my first look at that today. Great, great, sounds fun. Cool. Well, thank you, Joel. Thank you to everybody else for listening. Swimbriefpodcast at gmail.com if you want to uh give some inspiration to Joel and I. Um Christy underscore coach on Instagram, CD swim coach on Facebook. And um we'll be back again next week. Thanks.