Hey everybody, Chris DeSantis here. Uh you know, if you listen to this one brief, that uh we don't often do a lot of editing on this podcast, but I am recording this edition several days after Joel and I recorded our podcast. And that's because uh it came to my attention, or I had enough time in between the recording and when I was going to put it up to realize that uh some additional context needed to be added to this week's podcast. Um in this week's podcast, we take the news story um the uh about Reed Makuta at Auburn University to discuss hypotheticals. Um we don't get into that case at all because I will say this in this, and I think I say several times throughout the originally recorded podcast, we really don't know much about what happened there except that Makuta has been arrested. Um so for me, I think it was important to add this um addendum because you know Joel and I sometimes when we're doing a podcast, we discuss a topic uh that we're not fully informed about, and most of the time um we can be lighthearted about that, and that's okay. I think in this case, uh it's important to add a bit of uh context. So when Joel and I are discussing you know what we would do in a hypothetical situation, uh something that comes up for both of us is that we both uh believe we would exclude that person from the activity. We very much obviously do not know about the changes in Title IX regulations, and we got educated on that after the podcast. So I toyed with whether to take the whole section out, but uh ultimately I decided to leave it in because in all honesty, uh I think that you know my comments on the podcast, you can take them as reflecting as what I think the regulations should be. Um that's essentially what they were prior to them changing over the last few years. But um obviously I I'm not a lawyer, I'm not advising you about what you actually can do if you're in such a situation. Um and lastly, I I said I would repeat it once, but I'll repeat it once again. Um we're not commenting on the Auburn case specifically because we don't know what happened. Um and if I think Joel explains it best when we get into the podcast, but if you know the administration, if if Ryan Wacaburka and his staff at Auburn um are doing their jobs properly, we really shouldn't know anything except what we know now. Um so with that said, I hope you enjoy the podcast. I hope you enjoyed another frank, honest conversation, and um enjoy. Hello and welcome to the swim brief. Welcome to take two. We recorded about five minutes, and technology is just not my friend anymore. But you know who is my friend? Joel Rawlings. Joel, how are you?
SPEAKER_00I'm great. I'm there for you, man.
SPEAKER_01Why can't technology be more like you, Joel?
SPEAKER_00Late for everything and uh unable to do paperwork. I don't know. I don't know. It can aspire though. It can it can dream a little dream. This AI pretty soon it'll be running late for meetings for me.
SPEAKER_01Hey, at least we know if AI was designed like that, so we'd never have a terminator scenario. You know, it just wouldn't just wouldn't remember to file the paperwork to eliminate humanity. You just be like, hey, you meant to eliminate humanity today, and it'd be like, oh, yeah, I forgot. Okay.
SPEAKER_00It's too far. I'm good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. We gotta do that time thing, that time travel thing.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's gonna sound like so much work. How about if I just go yesterday? That'd be enough. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, well, a lighthearted start. We've we've actually got a couple serious topics to discuss. Um, one is you know in the news right now. Another one was um maybe missed by a lot of people a couple weeks ago, but I've had a couple of listeners uh talk to me about it, so I want to revisit it. So later, the one we're gonna talk about later, that's McGee Moody's uh appearance on the Brett Hawk podcast. And I want to talk about a specific uh piece of that. But what we're gonna start from the beginning is um, you know, the the news article that is uh on fire at Swim Slam right now. Um and I don't want to actually discuss the specifics of this news article. We're gonna kind of use it as a launching off point, but I'll I'll just read the title. Former Auburn Swimmer Reed Makuta arrested for rape in Alabama. And I thought it'd be good for you and I to have a conversation because we've both been um we've both been in university settings. Um we've been coaches for a long time. And you know, there's down in the comment section, or as you call it, the swim-swam troll board, um, there's a lot of conjecture about what um Ryan Wacamurka at Auburn's role was in all of this. Um so I want to back up and have sort of a more uh organized conversation about what what we see as the coach's role when you get information. And again, we don't know anything except the fact that this guy has been arrested. We have no details about um what what Ryan Wacamurka knew and when, and any piece of that, which is uh which is distressing to me as somebody who um has mentioned him a number of times on this podcast, as somebody that I've worked with. But I want to have the conversation about, you know, like you get information like that, and obviously that's uh that's a stressful day in the life of a college swim coach. What are you thinking about? You get information like, hey, there's a kid on your team, and they've been accused of something like rape.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think again, it's it's such a a tough topic because again, we we we talk about like the Me Too movement and things where you you don't want to uh come off and be like, oh well, I know this person, this person would never do something like that.
SPEAKER_01Right, he's a good guy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, exactly right right away, and it doesn't matter how well you know someone, whether it's like I've known this person since they were six years old, because it that's one of those things that does not age well. You know, as soon as you say that and it turns out they were guilty, you know, the the the you know, the people that grew up next to Jeffrey Dahmer, they thought, you know, played with dogs, nice kid, you know, whatever that doesn't age really well. Um I think the first thing is obviously if there's an allegation like this in every department that you you're gonna run through the meeting of you take every allegation like this seriously. It's like as soon as you hear the allegation, then the athlete stops participation in that sport. The sport is uh a privilege to be a part of, it's not a right to be a part of, and it's uh it's like uh an addition to their academics. And okay, sorry.
SPEAKER_01I want to stop you because I want to stop you at your first point because I actually think that there's a little mini conversation to be had about this because I've actually talked to somebody um who says, who said to me, like they would not take this first step. So you're saying first step, you have somebody on your team, they've been, you get information like you know, and I I want to be vague about this because I think the ways you can get this kind of information are all over the place, right? You like you have you have a scenario though where it just like comes through to you as a coach, hey, this individual on your team so-and-so says that uh they raped this other person, right? And your first move is I'm gonna take the accused athlete out, right? I've spoken to somebody who says you you you can't do that because that is you basically rendering like a preliminary judgment against that athlete. That's not fair to that athlete, that that sort of violates, you know, like some sort of notion of um, you know, innocent until proven guilty, like legal standards, all this stuff. That's the argument that I've heard. I don't agree with it, by the way. I actually would take the same action as you, but I I I guess I'm trying to lead you into what makes you feel so solid as that being your first step.
SPEAKER_00That would be my first step because at the last uh university I worked in, um that that was what we did. It was that was policy, right?
SPEAKER_01So there's no there's no gray area for you.
SPEAKER_00Right. Step one is you immediately talk to the Title IX officer, and you immediately cease any participation in sport until you get to the bottom of this. And that's all there is to it. I think when I when I was reading the troll board, um, you know, right away they're like almost insinuating like you know they're doing it because they're trying to get a couple more wins or something like that. And they I think the trolls all the time kind of go like it's the movie Blue Chips, you know, like release this basketball or football here where you know we're we're relying on millions of dollars from this win. It's like we're we're not. You know, again, it's it's it's swimming. Um and the big thing for us is that again, it I I don't want to make light of the situation at all or make it seem like it's a monetary thing, but the last thing an academic department wants is for sports to become a black eye for the university, you know, in any way. Obviously, we think of every tragedy that's happened at you know Penn State, Stanford. And that's the thing is as soon as we say Penn State, Stanford, right away the first thing we think of is what happened there. And and so that's that's the thing is again, it's it's not about um I I don't know how to explain it because it is such a delicate situation, but we have protocols set up. Step one is they stop activity, step two is you have Title IX and you talk with can't and campus police is going to be involved. And we weren't even supposed to call outside police, we were supposed to call campus police first. So those are the the two points I'm making right now is like the protocols are in place and all universities will go through this. And so that'd be step one, step two, Title IX, and stop and stopping activity until you find out what happened, and also making sure that you know campus police is is aware of this. So again, either direction, whether it's you have an accused offender um on your program in your program, or you have someone in your program that's accusing someone else of something again that happened.
SPEAKER_01Right. I mean, I I I just want to uh I want to keep on going over this point because I have heard argument on this exclusion piece of it. And as I said, I agree with you. And I would like we're not giving legal advice on this podcast. I'm not a lawyer. As far as I know, Joel, you're not a lawyer. Um you didn't you haven't even taken the LSAT, have you, Joel?
SPEAKER_00No, no, I I'm basically uh LSAT adjacent. That's about it.
SPEAKER_01So we're not giving out legal advice. Like I as far if you want to know what kind of advice we're giving out on this podcast, it's uh it's at best uh moral advice. And I think there's a moral standard to be applied here, regardless of whether you have a policy. I look at a situation like this and I am weighing risk. Okay. If somebody on my team is accused of rape, right? Um, do I risk excluding an athlete from a practice that in fact did not commit rape? Yes. That is that is the risk I am taking by excluding that person. But let's let's view the other the the what is the flip side? The flip side in including is I could be including on my team a rapist. Okay? That's not a risk I want to take. The first risk, it sucks and it's bad, but I don't think it's equivalent to the second risk. Like I I just can't they they they can't even exist um and be judged fairly against one another. So morally, I just think it's the right thing to do. And yeah, you're gonna get into some gray space where people may be mad at you um and you know, God knows it's America, like you can sue people for any number of things. I'll go down, I'll go down fighting on the piece of exclusion. Um that's just that's just my take on it.
SPEAKER_00Right. And I I think uh when we're talking about exclusion from activity, again, it's it's not like it's a right. It's not like you're taking it away, you're taking a privilege away. And again, when when we sit through these meetings, the way I I would think of this is obviously the same kind of paradigm that you have as far as like if guilty, then obviously this is step one. If not guilty, then I would always kind of like kind of explain it to myself, and this person put themselves in a situation that is somehow you know damaging their reputation. Again, this is if if they did not, if if the allegations were incorrect, they're they put themselves into a situation where they've damaged their own reputation, they're damaging, they're potentially damaging the reputation of the program, and they're potentially damaging the reputation of the university. So again, there's either way, there's something obviously where is either criminal or is enough where it's making us all you know look pretty bad right now, which obviously isn't the the big picture, the big picture of someone got potentially got hurt in this issue. Um, but we have those first first two steps. And one of the other steps, then number three, is you don't talk to anyone about this except for Title IX, Compliance, the Athletic Director. Law enforcement. In law enforcement. Yeah, you know, again, again, not you didn't want to bring in the swimstam article too much, but again, it was it's a short article, you know, and Auburn did not return our calls. Of course not. And again, so like sometimes when we read that we think movies and we think, oh, well, they're hiding something. It's like now that they're not talking to the New York Times. Do you think they're gonna talk to Swim Swam? They're not talking to anyone because they need to have their investigation in a row. They can't slip up and say anything. And same for the coach. Like, well, he kept on doing X, Y, or Z. Whatever he was kept on doing, whether letting them participate, I'm sure he's following whatever the university guidelines were. Because again, when you're when you're when you're thrown into a crisis situation, the last thing you want to be doing is like just thinking of stuff off the cuff. And that's why, again, these protocols are laid out in place.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I think, I mean, look, the it's worth discussing. I I would say my advice to anybody would be um to to follow protocols. I guess if you didn't have a protocol about exclusion, I probably would pick a fight on that. Again, because I believe in that morally, but but other than other than than that, um the stuff about Title IX office, um, law enforcement, I gather that that has to be consistent throughout. And actually, I was thinking about this article in the context of Safe Sport, um, because I was thinking, like, well, aren't we all mandated reporters? But interestingly enough, you know, the Safe Sport Act only mandated reporting uh knowledge of uh sexual abuse of minors. So in this instance, um, and we again we don't know anything, but in this instance, like if you if you you know, sort of like you're on a college campus and you assume that almost everybody on a college campus is 18 or older, um if the accused is 18 or older, then you are not a mandated reporter in most situations. There's there's of course like some variance state to state, there's probably variance school to school. Um and you know, I was thinking about in the context of like I as a mandated reporter, I have had to report several times in my life. And I can tell you honestly, as a process, it's a process with a ton of flaws. It's a frustrating process, it's a time-consuming process, but you do it. You absolutely do it because um I think at their core, mandated reporting laws do more good than harm because they were designed for, they were designed to combat crimes like this, where you know, people were uncomfortable or like I don't know if passing along this information is somehow going to like mean I'm condemning somebody, you know, to legal jeopardy. It was like, no, no, you don't you don't have to make a judgment call. Pass the information along. You just do it, right? You just do it, um, and you let some higher authority figure out what's going on. And as I said, those higher authorities, they're not perfect. I have had, um as I said, having to put this into practice, it can be incredibly frustrating. You can feel like nothing's happening. Um, but you you do your piece in it. And then I think if if if we want to have a broader conversation about how we can, you know, um build a better system to uh police crimes like this, to investigate crimes like this, I'm all for it. But this is the system we've got now. Um, and there have been improvements, and I think I think they're worth following.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. And I think uh again, you know, reading the troll board, obviously they're they're completely against obviously the the the kid. There's no one like coming out like, hey, he's a great guy, he's done X, Y, and Z. You know, I can't believe they're they're throwing him under the bus like this. And and so kind of looking at it from the other side is like, again, if you allowed participation and just take that that athlete and put him into any other activity, uh, you know, again, that that's that's all someone that's that's a victim of a crime needs. Like, you know, they're being held out again, like even the Swim Swim article right away. Well, how fast was he? How'd he place at nationals? You know, none of that is relevant at all, obviously. But again, that becomes the only thing. And someone that was victimized by this is like they they have to like see this, hear this all the time, kind of a thing. Um I again, it's like uh you know, just even stepping back to any kind of crisis we get into as a coach, that that's when we always you know have the most troubles when the crisis hits and we try to like right away, we're just gonna wing it, you know, right now let's let's try to solve something. And it's and again, that's why when when things happen like this, and you have to have the protocols in place. And and I think our you know frame where we're always going, what if, and then the worst case, what if this is true, what's gonna happen from there? Um, and that that's always where I looked at like as far as like when you're bringing recruits onto the team. You know, it's like this is gonna be most of us are gonna be the head coach of a men's and women's program. And if they're in college, you know, there's a there's a chance there's gonna be drinking involved at some point, and they're traveling together and they hang out together and they're drinking. Again, that's that's every coach's nightmare, is like something like that is gonna happen within their own team like that, or to their own team like that. And so having these protocols, again, you're not trying to like step back and lose responsibility on this. I mean, obviously you're gonna be held accountable for every person you bring into the program, but you you want to make sure that you do what's right by everyone involved. That way, if if this became an accusation that was unfounded, then there's nothing in there that you said this person did this, this, this. You just had them stop participating until we got to the bottom of it. Not a big deal. And if you found out they obviously if the person was guilty in some way, then right away is like we we've done our our part to make sure that this was stopped and there was you know, by by law, it was you know gone through due process. Yeah, exactly. And and looking again at stepping back even further, like with recruits or or with k kids in your own team, the the hard part is you you basically never know when when to all of a sudden stop and call this in, like all right, they they got an underage drinking ticket or something like that. Or you know, they're a little loud around and aggressive in conversation with people. Again, all these are little things, and then all of a sudden, oh I got aggressive and there was a fight. And then okay, there's then again, there's there's usually like a small trail of like like smaller breadcrumbs, in a sense, that kind of lead up to the bigger thing. And at some point, they're gonna call you in and say, How come you didn't stop on this offense? How come you didn't stop on this offense? And then as a coach, you've got to live with that for the rest of your life, because in a sense, not in a sense, you're they're absolutely correct. They're absolutely correct, but We're not really trained always to see what what really are red flags, what is just behavior like this. And and I'm thinking that because a lot of us are getting to the point where we get to alumni meets now, and alumni always come back like, hey, do they still do X, Y, and Z? They still it's like it's called hazing now. They no, we don't do that.
SPEAKER_01Just look at Boston College. I know we said we weren't gonna talk about it yet.
SPEAKER_00But exactly. It's exactly right. It's like because that becomes step one of something that could become bigger. And even if it wasn't like a direct trail, there's enough where everyone will go, why didn't you do something about that earlier? And whether you saw it or not, it's like it's it's still gonna be on you. And so you you have to live with yourself, obviously, and um you have to you know protect your team, obviously, and you have to protect the university as well. But I think the biggest thing, like you and I are willing to die on the hill of you're just you're just done until we can figure out what's going on. Whether I like the person, have it don't like you, it's like whether I've known them since they're two years old, and obviously they could never do this, you're stopping. That that's all there is to it. Uh and and again, because even if I you know lost my job or something, at the end of the day, I I've got to live with myself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I I I again I made the moral argument, but even as you were talking about it, I think the secondary, like, just look at this situation. Okay, so if you want to be like just um a win-it-all costs person, you know what again, we don't know what happened at Auburn. We don't know, you know, when and if Ryan Walker can do anything. Like, I I really don't want to get into that because we don't know uh what he knew, when, and and whatever. But I'm just talking about a hypothetical similar situation. Do you want to be the coach who didn't exclude somebody and then it splashed on SwimSlam several months later that that person got arrested and you knew that information and you let them say on your team. Like I from a competitive standpoint, even I think that's dumb. It's just not it's not a good idea. Um, so it's so it's both amoral, in my opinion, but I also think it's it's just it's just a poor uh long-term decision for your for your competitive success. Um it's short-sighted to to to to to keep things going that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's again, it's swimming. If a kid's a school record holder, you're not gonna get a raise, you're not gonna get accolades, you're not gonna make a little, you know, name the pool after you for that. You you have one kid on the team that gets an underage drinking violation, there's a good chance you're gonna get fired. Yeah, you know, again, so there's the the risk reward is always you take care of business. I don't I don't know the coach. I don't know the much of the situation other than I read about this. Is my first thought was I'm sure the coach is doing exactly what he's been told to do. Yeah, and you just follow that along. You don't talk about this outside of the athletic department or to the law enforcement, and that's it. And so on the outside looking in, it's like, well, he covered up because he didn't say anything. It's like, what's he supposed to say?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if he's doing his job and is actually being fair to all the people involved, he said nothing, and you don't know what he's what he's done and what he hasn't done. Um as as unless you are right, him, his athletic director, in campus police, or you know, local law enforcement. Like you don't know. Um so all right, I think we're ready to move on from this one. Let's um let's talk about uh renowned communist McGee Moody uh advocating for collective action of workers. What do you think, Joel?
SPEAKER_00Uh I I read it a little bit differently. I didn't look at it as collective action for workers. I thought it was like, let's somehow put a governor on ourselves a little bit, you know, so the engines just don't have to keep running so darn hot.
SPEAKER_01That's that I know I know McGee a little bit. Um we haven't talked very much in recent years. That's me teasing McGee about politics. Um, I think very much he is not voting for uh, let's just say he's not he's not voting Democrat, as far as I can tell. Um but he can correct me if I'm wrong. Um he would be probably pretty annoyed to be called a socialist. But I do think his suggestion here, we're gonna get let me get into the suggestion so we can start talking about it and not just tease it. Um he was on the Brett Hawk podcast, and I'm gonna paraphrase a bit here. But I think what he was suggesting was uh both him and Brett were sort of ruminating on some of the misery that they put themselves through coaching in the SEC as head coaches. And McGee was suggesting like, what if we had gotten together as coaches and just like just the same way that college coaches basically made a recruiting dead period? Um it's in the same vein of this, the College Swim Coaches Association uh made some recruiting dead periods. The idea being like, we should have coaching dead periods. We have like a long weekend built into the season that just we've all agreed like we're not gonna hold practice, we're not gonna hold team activities, you know, you get Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and you can go do something with your family, you know, in October or November or somewhere in the heart of a collegiate season and not have that feeling like I'm taking this time off, but you know, down the road at Auburn, like they're full tilt right now and they're and they're getting an advantage over us and all that piece. So I want to get your reaction first, Joel, just to sort of the structure of the suggestion here. Um, and then maybe maybe we'll get into you know uh some of the mechanics of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know a lot of coaches that that basically you know take that approach where they're like, hey, if you're not willing to do it, I am, I'll take your job. I'll I'll I'll grab it. You make it six figures, I'll do that. Don't worry about it. And a lot of these coaches I know that are willing to do that, you know, that they don't have families. You know, the swimming is their life. That's great, good for them. They're they're excellent coaches. They decide not to have children, they decide either not to get married or they end up getting divorces or whatever it was, but they're like, this is what I do, this is who I am, I pull, put 100% in it. And so it's kind of like uh, you know, it's hard for me to argue with that. I mean, that they are willing to do it. Um, but I think that's again what it comes down to is uh I've seen myself the the health risks I put myself into by by working, working, working, working, and not taking these mandatory breaks that I needed. And I think in the end, it's it's kind of like COVID, where all of a sudden you're gonna we're gonna come out and we're gonna see um what really was needed and what really was not needed. And I think us, and we've talked about this a lot on our other podcasts, is us being rested and ready to go and dealing with uh all the things that athletes will bring to your doorstep, as well as coaching and practice and being on the road and things like that, that if we're not rested and ready to do that, then then that's where the mistakes come in. And that's where the um that's usually when we're at the lowest point of our coaching. And so, yeah, I understand what he's saying, but I also understand where people are like, I'm willing to give up everything to get an Olympian, I'm willing to give up everything to get a world record holder. Um, and this this is my life, this is what I do. And so um again, it's it's kind of how sport is is evolved or devolved in around us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think there's something deeply cultural, even just in the sport assuming in this. And uh I would love to the reason why I wanted to highlight it is because um, you know, I I really actually I really believe in what McGee is saying, and I believe in it more um in terms of cultural change. And I, you know, I witnessed this in my own life. Um I I now consider that I had the great fortune. Well, I I've always considered it great fortune, but in this aspect, I I have started to consider it greater fortune of um marrying my wife and having my wife be somebody from outside of the sport of swimming. And I know you've got the same uh great fortune, Joel. And part of it was like when we got together, and even around uh me exercising and some of the habits I had in the beginning, just having another person who was there with me all the time that was just like, what are you doing? Like, what? Why would you do that? You know, uh challenging things that I just went, well, that's just what you do. Like, and it was stuff like I think very early on in our relationship, you know, like I would get um I was a young man, right? I was 23 years old, I would get frustrated with something, maybe it would be uh uh fitness related, maybe it wouldn't. And I would like punish myself with a workout, and she'd be like, Why like what? Why are you doing that? And I think for me, it had come in come out of the sport of swimming. It was like the idea uh being like you just had to be you had to be tough in that way. The only way to get out of a bad situation was to outwork your competition, like that self-punishment um ethos was so so strong. And I think it translates over into coaching, and as you say, just like an idea that you know, whenever I get more like personal resources in life, I need to just invest them right into um swimming. I've come to see over time that I think, and I said this earlier, that the that that that that's short-sighted. Even if your goal is competitive success, I think the way that a lot of people are doing it is short-sighted. I I travel around um and uh and go see swim coaches and talk to swim coaches. Um, to me, a lot of them just seem like they're dealing with a a low-level exhaustion or maybe a high level of exhaustion constantly, and they don't realize the effect that has on them, right? It doesn't realize the effect that has like on on uh the efficiency. It's like if you're in college and you pull an all-nighter, you know, cram studying for the test, you probably would have just been better off getting eight hours of sleep, right? Because your brain's not going to be functioning right the next day. And I I think a lot of people do it the reverse in coaching. They go, how can I squeeze a little bit more out of myself? And then over time you have less and less to squeeze, you know, but you're not where you want to be competitively, so you keep trying to squeeze yourself. Like I just don't think it really works. And I'm I'm self-conscious as I'm saying this that like some of my clients are um are gonna uh think that that's that's what I'm saying about them. So I just I just as a test, um Rob, if you're listening to this, I I think you're like a mutant. Um you're somehow resistant to working harder um than pretty much everybody else. And uh Matt Crispino at at Princeton, you're like the the fittest uh man in Division I college swimming. So I don't think you have to worry about this either. But I but I see it broadly in the culture.
SPEAKER_00So wait to take the listening audience from 12 down to just two like that. Nicely done. Just we're gonna keep on narrowing the field so eventually it's just you and I talking.
SPEAKER_01I just want to find out if those guys are listening. Actually, Rob, I know you're listening. Let's let's see if Matt's listening. And it's great cast.
SPEAKER_00So I do one thing I I remember when I uh started coaching, I was talking to, I like to talk one of the things I like about you know college coaching is that you know you have coworkers, you know, even though they're in other fields, they're still coaching, and coaching is is coaching. And I remember talking to the wrestling coach once, and he was like, you know, it's it's a young man's game. Like, what do you mean it's like this this coaching stuff is it's kind of a young man's game? It's like you you basically, and I I see this with a lot of the kids, I used kids, uh adults now that I used to coach that now a coach as well. And the amount of energy they have for like being at these meets and then getting on swim swam and downloading YouTube clips and finding out who has the world record holder in X, Y, and Z, it's just it's so much, and they'll send me this stuff, and it's like it exhausts me just getting the text, much less actually following how much that they're following. And then you look at also like on deck where these these coaches were like in the wrestling, they're going up and down, they're screaming, they're yelling, they're falling. It's like, is that really for the kid, or is that just a little show for a little performance for the parents in the stands? What's what's going again? Like the amount of energy to devote 100% like that, um, it it's it definitely makes it kind of a young person's game in that regard. And and so um I think that's the idea again is like where when you can keep on throwing when you're especially when you're young and you've got all that time where you don't mind like coaching until 11 at night or whatever, meet goes to, then you go out and you hang out with your friends for three hours and you're up at six the next day, you kind of get this idea that you can do this, you know. I can't keep on doing this rhythm like this. And it is obviously you you can't at some point. At some point, other things start to come in, and in other points you start to get more perspective about life too, as well. And I think that's what helps us as coaches too, is again when when you've got a big picture idea where where you understand that this isn't all about it. And uh the same coach was telling me about basically he said the trick for college coaching was getting those kids to believe that your sport is 100% the most important thing, while the whole time you kind of realize that it's really not. You know, the there's lessons in it that you want to be 100% important, but the sport really isn't. But you need to convince them it's 100% so they commit and they give, because if they're not giving 100%, they're not going to get back what they need as well. I think I told you a story like when I was uh when I swam my last year, um last year or something we were at Cleveland State, and like I walked out the wrong door. And so like you know, I've got like Timorhops and stuff like that, walked out onto the street, and I was locked out because it's Cleveland State.
SPEAKER_01I know exactly the door you're talking about, by the way.
SPEAKER_00And so again, it's th three inches of steel between you and like sobbing and people just overwhelmed by the swims and going crazy and things like that. And on the outside, just people going to Dunkin' Donuts, people are homeless, people that are like going to work, people just going about their day. And so I think that's I guess it's kind of a good metaphor for the idea again when you're when you do that that kind of lifestyle of like you're at the meet, then you're looking at YouTube and things, it becomes so insular, you get so separate from everything else that this becomes the biggest thing ever. That all of a sudden, like everything is is such a blown out of proportion deal because you you lose perspective when you're inside of it. And when you're inside of it, you're working 80, 90, 100 hours a week, no problem. And there's nothing else kind of coming in except for whatever's there. And so again, sometimes like when you say it, it's like, well, that sounds really good. You're giving 100% for the kids. But then it's like, well, are you? You know, again, is it you're you're giving 100% to the activity, you're you're completely invested in the activity, and everything else kind of fades away. And I I just realized that when I was, you know, took four or five years off of coaching and was taking care of my kids through COVID. Well, you know, we we'd be at a party or something like that, I'd be like, you know, I can make any of these people faster as a swimmer, but um, I don't know a way I can make six figures. You know, I don't I don't know how I I don't know how I'm gonna fix the garage door. I can I can tell you how to fix a breast or a pullout, you know. But again, it's like so our our our area of expertise is so small and such a silly area in the grand scheme of things, you know, that it becomes one of those things where you you remove yourself, that's when all of a sudden you realize it's a house of cards, it comes crumbling down. You devoted like 80, 90 years of just knowledge pursuit that really is kind of uh pretty small.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, see, I have a I uh in response to all that, I mean, I I I have a a a needle that I'm always trying to thread. Um, and I think about this a lot with the college uh groups in particular that I work with. I think that where we could really improve um college swimming is I think that there is at the core of the sport a message about you know the process of trying to be your best in the sport of swimming is a process that will have an impact on every other thing you want to try to accomplish in life. But where it's getting lost is when we all got, I think, a little bit intellectually lazy and we went, well, the process of you know out competing these other people is really like we're we're not gonna try to innovate, you know, we all have the same um amount of time. We're just gonna try to squeeze more into the same amount of time. And I think that that I would recommend and what I always try to do is I try to set some pretty common sense boundaries on my time because I have other things that I want to do besides work in life, and then I try to figure out how to um do a lot more or make a lot more progress in the time that I have uh set aside for something. And I I think that um you know I think that there's a lot of progress to be made there, and sometimes you're just not gonna make that progress unless you introduce some constraints and some boundaries. And if I bring it back to what McGee is saying, I think that if everybody had just you know gotten together and planned, like, hey, we're gonna have a three-day weekend for coaches in the middle of this season, well, then that's just there. It's an immovable rock, you've got to plan around it. Um, I was at uh uh Johns Hopkins on Monday. Um, a lot of people don't know this, uh, but Johns Hopkins traditionally, as you know, right? Powerhouse in Division III swimming. They have a six-lane 25-yard pool. That's it. Right. It's a six-lane old, crappy. Sorry, they're sorry, Johns Hopkins. Um they're doing some nice renovations to it, but it's a six-lane 25-yard pool. And I was talking to their coach, Scott Armstrong, about it, and he's just saying, like, yeah, but you know what? I'm so much more creative coaching here than I was at Stanford. You know, he was an assistant coach at Stanford, and he had the Avery Aquatic Center. He could have everybody train in their own lane if he wanted to. And now he's got to be super creative. And, you know, I I just think let's let's put some constraints on ourselves. Let's get together and put some constraints on ourselves so that it's not the answer, isn't always, well, who can you know coach 366 days a year? Because it's not sustainable, you know.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Um, you're you're absolutely right. I think um I I I always looked at it too, like kind of that's the why I kind of went down the route of really kind of working a lot on technique and things is because uh I knew I just was never gonna work in a facility that was unlimited pool time, unlimited nutritionists, unlimited coaching staff, unlimited X, Y, and Z, just because it's not something we can do. And so if I know for a fact that I can't have the same pool time as someone else, then we have to be smarter with the pool time we have. And I think that's again why I've done too much with coaching is we always look at it as time as the reservoir we're just gonna keep dipping into, like, oh, I'll just spend another five more hours at this office, and that'll that'll fix the problem, and that's five more hours less than I'm with my family or whatever, like that.
SPEAKER_01It's your most valuable resource, save it, right? Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And then uh yeah, I just I just keep on spending it on stuff. And and that's the thing is is again when you start to limit your time, then you're like, I've got to be smarter with my time. You know, I can't have things scattered throughout. I need to be organized. If I have a six-lane pool, I need to have know what people are gonna be doing. You know, it's not like they can just wander in and you know, in 30 minutes get in the water and then we'll get going because we can just move the pool time back. So we have pool time from then until then, that's it. You need to hit it and go. And uh and again start to use what you have available to you. Um, but again, I I understand you know the the concept where people are like, you know what, I'm willing to sacrifice all this stuff uh to be able to coach all those weekends. I'm not giving up that three-day weekend. Uh, I think that at the end of COVID, I saw a lot of kids that screw them really, really well and and they weren't training every day. And not saying that that's gonna be the norm or that's the that you know, I'm not gonna hang my head on not training to beat someone, but I'm saying that again, I think sometimes that that break that the kids have um is is pretty needed. And the break we need, uh you know, we we have to figure out a way to take it and and not feel guilty about it. Um what I've seen whenever I see coaches about to burn out, they're always pretty angry that the kids aren't giving the same amount that they're giving into the sport. And I think once once they start feeling that way, then I think it's it's it's about they're they're almost done coaching.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, uh speaking of time constraints, I know you're coming up against one, Joel. So I want to say thanks. Um thank you. Thanks for thanks for being here. Thanks everybody for listening. Cd Swim Coach on Facebook, swimbrief podcast at gmail.com, Christy underscore coach on Instagram, magic5.com slash the swim brief. And I will be back again later this week. Um, thank you, everybody. See you soon.