Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I am Chris DeSantis and I am joined once again by the most popular guest, sorry Joel, in Swim Brief podcast history, Trevor Gray. Trevor, how are you?
SPEAKER_01Chris, that's not true at all. I've looked at the viewership on YouTube, and Joel has way more views than I do.
SPEAKER_00Well, listen, you views on YouTube is not everything. You can't measure yourself by these stats. And really, Trevor, that's more me just laying a little trap to see if Joel will listen to a podcast that he's not on. I appreciate that. So if I get a message from him later being like, screw you, buddy, then I know that he listened to this podcast. But I'm going to go ahead and bet that he's not going to because he's he's busy moving once again. He's uh his life is a non-stop chaos. Um it's the 4th of July week. We're getting together uh a little bit later than we usually are. And today we're gonna talk about sleep. And um our number one piece of advice for people uh about sleep is um don't decide to do a podcast about sleep because apparently you'll start sleeping poorly. You and I have had um both not a great week, but maybe that puts us in the perfect mindset for actually talking about sleep today. What do you think, Trevor?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because it's relatable, because what we're about ready to talk about, nothing is guaranteed. Everyone is going to suffer from poor sleep at one time or one phase of your life or another. I mean, you know, as a still somewhat new parent, that in those first few years probably was the worst sleep of your life, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_00You know what? Honestly, I've slept out. Maybe it's a marker of how poorly I've slept at various stages of my life. It was not the worst I've ever slept. But we're gonna get into that. I think that's a perfect segue into talking about this because I'm either, Trevor, I'm either um the most qualified person to talk on this subject or the least qualified, depending on both. Depending on your perspective, um, there is no thing that we're gonna talk about in this whole series of podcasts that I have a harder time with than sleep. Um I have, and it it's pretty much been a lifelong struggle to fall asleep, to stay asleep. And, you know, um, of course, like everything we're talking about belongs to a part of a system. And I think sleep embodies that maybe more so than anything else we're gonna discuss because it really does have like such strong interactions with all the other things you're trying to do. Like, I I can tell, you know, good good sleep, bad sleep. Um, I feel it in every other aspect of my life, right? And so um it is one of those A1, like I you want to say everything's important, but this is like, I don't know that there's anything more important than sleep in terms of um your physical health, your mental health, um, everything.
SPEAKER_01Well, the four horsemen of disease, in order from top killer to number four killer, is cardiovascular disease, cancer, neurodegenerative diseases, and metabolic diseases. And sleep is uh closely correlated or implicated in all four of those, especially with neurodegenerative diseases. Sleep is extremely important. But we're talking more about athletes today. And I'm sh I think you saw the famous now Stanford basketball players study where they slept more and they tested jump height and reaction time and endurance. Are you aware of that study?
SPEAKER_00No, please tell tell the tell the audience.
SPEAKER_01So a lot of a lot of sleep experts, which at the end of this podcast, I want to uh have our listeners go to the more experts than we are and get listened to more podcasts on the topic so they themselves can become more well-versed in sleep. But the Stanford study, they took uh the Stanford men's basketball team and in one group, uh, they didn't change their sleep habits, and the other group, I think they only increased sleep by 30 minutes. So I don't even think it was an hour. And the 30-minute extra sleep additional sleep group performed well above and beyond the control group. And that study has gone on to been uh to be replicated to confirm those results. So for athletes, man, sleep not only to stave off disease, but for performance enhancement, every athlete has to get sleep. Has to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Um as somebody who was up at 4 a.m. this morning, I'm I agree with you. I'm feeling it. I'm feeling it. I tried to work out today, and you know, I can just tell. I'm uh I'm I don't have hard data on it um the way that you do, but um, you know, my subjective sense is it has a big impact on everything else that I try to do um for the rest of the day. And I guess that'll I'll let me get into the background a little bit because we're gonna talk about some of the stuff that we have um tried around sleep. And um gosh, uh, you know, I probably could do like a two-hour podcast just by myself describing some of the stuff. So let me let me try to give people the short version of it. And um I just want to stress before before I do any of this, there's gonna be some discussion of supplementation, gonna be some discussion of um medication. I'm not a doctor, uh, I'm not suggesting medical interventions for other people. I'm just talking about you know what it is uh I've been through so you have an idea of um you you can see where I have um I have uh struggled and and what I have tried to do to address that. Um I probably first like really had uh started having a lot of trouble going to sleep um when I was in high school. And and looking back, um there were some pretty significant life stuff that I'm not gonna get into for the purpose of this podcast that coincided with that. Um and the the real hard thing with sleep, I think, is um, as somebody who's struggled with it for a long time, is when you start having trouble um uh going to sleep, it can become kind of a self-sustaining loop, right? Because then it's in your head like, oh my god, I'm gonna have trouble falling asleep again tonight. And that makes it harder to fall asleep on a subsequent um night. So um, as was a standard treatment for uh I guess uh a lot of people in in that time and age, um I got put on a prescription medication um called Ambient, uh, and I've been uh taking Ambient for 25 years, um as far as I can tell. Some give or take, a year or two. I don't really know precisely um what year it started. And um, you know, I it's had its uh upsides and and downsides. I would say um the upside is that I more consistently fall asleep, but lately I get more and more concerned about like the actual, first off, the quality of the sleep that I'm getting. Um, and it's one of the reasons why I want to start to get some better data on what's going on when I um fall asleep. And then um I guess also like you know, what are the long-term, I don't think anybody really knows what the I don't think these medications, for instance, were designed for long-term use. Right? No. So um, you know, I I always have latently in the back of my mind some level of concern that, you know, like I'm doing something that potentially like I know that there are no free rides in nature essentially, right? So there's some some other way I am paying for this. You'll pay the hikers down the road. Yeah, and I don't maybe I'm already am and I I just don't know what it is, but I don't like not knowing what it is, right? I like to know what my consequences are so I can make an informed decision. And I think this is one where um I'm not exactly uh sure. And I've been down that road several times um in terms of you know, like going to a doctor, getting getting on medication without fully understanding the long-term implications of of being medicated for various things. Um so that's um that's part of mine. And um I on top of that, I think I probably have personal experience with anything that um might be out on the market, you know, that is being marketed as a supplement in some shape or form to help you with with uh sleep. Um and that man, that for me means uh a lot of trial and error. And uh I can say overall, um I think this this week excluded, I've gotten to a pretty good place in life. I'm probably sleeping better than I have at any other stage. Um and it's the it's the non-sexy stuff that I think has um really stood the test of time for me. Um getting, if we talked about nutrition last week, um supplementing with magnesium, getting an adequate level of magnesium, getting an adequate level of um zinc um in my diet, um, or you know, supplementing with some zinc.
SPEAKER_01All the hundreds of nutrients you need.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah. Um eating eating a uh nutritious diet, um, meditation, managing my stress levels, um, exercising regularly. Um, you know, like you gotta keep what I learned more than anything is that getting having a bad night's sleep can challenge you um on doing the other things, but you want to do what you can to like keep the other things in your constellation um going as well as they possibly can, because that will make it easier for you to get back into a good rhythm um sleeping-wise. So I've been able to smooth off some of um some of those like sort of self-fulfilling prophecies with sleep um definitely through that stuff. I mean, what do you what do you like, what do you have experience with?
SPEAKER_01Well, what you're talking about is sleep hygiene. And I tell my classes often that you are high maintenance. It is so high maintenance to be human.
SPEAKER_00You said you tell them that I'm high maintenance, particularly? You go, Chris DeSantis is very high maintenance. And they're like, who's that?
SPEAKER_01I said and then I say he's the famous podcaster.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, don't you know Chris DeSantis?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, every biological system is high maintenance. If you want to live a healthy life, it takes a lot of damn hard work. And what you're describing is sleep hygiene, and yeah, we got to eat right and exercise and set yourself up for good sleep during the night. And that's a lot of work, unfortunately. And we're like, why can't we be like our pets or dogs where it's you know, uh, they're tired? Okay, they're just gonna lay down and they fall asleep like that, right? Why can't we do that? Well, uh we're a little bit more complex, and our society is definitely not geared towards optimizing um uh human functionality for good health. Right. So let uh I I want to reiterate what you said that I'm not a registered dietitian. I am not recommending any of these supplements, um, simply giving information so you can explore further on maybe some of them would help you or not. Um so yeah, let's let's I want to first talk about how uh you can also help yourself at night. So the sun is bright and we can measure that in lumens. So if we measure that in or the Kelvin scale. So let's take the Kelvin scale and measure the sun. That's on a clear blue day, that's 10,000 Kelvin that the sun is producing, right? And I'll go ahead, I'll go ahead and say now that if you want to dive into sleep more, listen to Andrew Huberman's podcast. And he recommends you. Yeah, me too as well. Yeah. Get up in the morning, uh, go outside for 10 minutes, and not stare at the sun, obviously, but get the sunlight on your face. Like he's a big, big proponent of that. He's mentioned it in many podcasts. That can help you sleep at night. Now, okay, so nighttime falls, it's dark out, you go turn on the bathroom light to brush your teeth, and the light flashes in your eyes. And let's say that's at 5,000 Kelvin. Very bright. 5,000 is still like the midday sun. I recommend my athletes and everyone go to the store, get a 1,000 twelve hundred lumen light bulb, and put those in your bathroom. And a candle flame is right around 1,500-ish. Um and that we have adapted to the light of fire, and we can fall asleep. It's one of the reasons camping might be good for us, is because we hear that crackling, and and that light does not keep that yellow flame does not keep us up at night. So I recommend that you change your light bulbs uh in those places where you go at night to a lower lumen as to not disrupt your circadian rhythm with very bright light. That can help, number one. So get those Edison bulbs, they look cool and they're very low lumens. Um, the other thing you could do is stop eating two to three hours before you go to bed. Let the food digest and get out of your system. I am terrible at this. This is I I'm I I keep working on it. Oh, I'm good at that. That's my jam, Trevor. I do this. Yeah. So you're done eating by 7, 8, 8 o'clock? Yeah, probably 6 30 at the latest. Yeah, wow. See, and you're in bed what 10 or something?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Eleven. Yeah. Yeah, I can't do that. I struggle with that, so I'm still working on that one. So those two things can actually uh help a lot in terms of going to bed uh and getting a good night's rest. So the following are not drugs like ambient, but the following are natural supplements, and the vast majority of these you already have in your body. So let's go through them. One is glycine. Glycine is an amino acid, and I'm not going to explain in this podcast what an amino acid is beyond the building blocks for proteins. So you already have glycine in you, and it turns out that glycine is also a neurotransmitter that can um help promote sleep by decreasing your time to sleep. And how much do you take? Start off with like a gram. And by the way, for those that want to get, um uh Chris is gonna post this uh somewhere on this website, so this is free for anyone to access this and um definitely talk to your healthcare provider for any drug interactions. But what you're doing is all just increasing your supply of this amino acid in the brain to help promote sleep. Okay, next.
SPEAKER_00Let me just can I just interject because um glycine is one we've talked about, and um interesting. I I think there are one of the reasons why you should always, you know, do this under advice of somebody more than a the podcaster. I mean, uh, you you say talk to your healthcare provider. I mean, I basically um I actually do that. You know, I don't there's not a lot of people that go to their doctor and go like, how about this? I I have done that. Um and I do do that. And interestingly enough, with glycine, there's a certain percentage of people that have a paradoxical effect. So like the the it should be like sort of calming and sleep promoting. I am like wired beyond belief if I supplement glycine. And that's just like like you said, like I you had this great quote on a previous podcast that we're as different on the inside as we look on the outside, you know, like that's just that's just a possibility that that can happen. So that's why, you know, it's not about copying routines, right? It's just about sort of understanding what's our what like what are some possible things out there that could be influencing your sleep and and working to figure it out.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. There's responders and non-responders, and then there's hypo-responders, no response, and then hyper-responders. Some people drink a sip of caffeine and they go wild. I have a colleague actually, and she can't drink any caffeine because she goes like pretty not crazy, but she gets very, very hyper. And then other people who can drink, I'm sure there's people out there who could drink eight cups of coffee a day and they're lethargic all day long. Now that's probably somewhat a problem, but there's gonna be responders and non-responders to all these, which is why you have to experiment with these and try them for a few weeks or even a few months and then go off of them. Like, how do I feel? And it's a this these sleep supplement recommendations, if you choose to look into them and and adopt them, is a six-month experiment of one to see if they work for you or not. Right. So the next one, uh, this is probably my uh if you were to try something first, it's this one, and it's magnesium three-inate, t-h r-e-o-n-a-t-e three-in-ate. The reason this one's number one is because it's been estimated by uh US Health uh de U.S. Department of Health and Human Services that 50% of Americans are deficient in magnesium. And then magnesium is known to interact with 80% of metabolic reactions. It's a very important mineral. And if half the population is not getting enough, that's a problem. So let's make sure, let's maybe supplement, make sure you're getting enough. And then if it can help sleep as well, well, then extra bonus. So evidence of all these is mixed, of course, because there's responders and non-responders, but I'd probably um try this magnesium 3 and 8 first.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I've been doing that for years, mag specifically magnesium L3 and 8. Yeah, yeah. For for several years. And I have to do that.
SPEAKER_01Have you cycled off of that at all and gone back on No. Yeah, cycle off of it, see what happens for a few nights, and then try it again. Watch you get a report back that I went off it and I slept better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, yeah, maybe. I'll try anything this week.
SPEAKER_01Go ahead. Yeah. Next is theanine, uh T-H-E-A-N-I-N-E. This is also an amino acid found in green tea. Uh so if you drink a grade for a green tea drinker, you already have this in your system, and you're or only doing or you're only uh increasing your own internal amount by supplementing. And this is just 200 to 400 milligrams of theanine at night, and this does promote um just calmness and relaxation. And it's one of the reasons why green tea is not as strong as caffeine because um theanine can blunt caffeine's effects of being awake and alert. So that's why green tea is a little bit more mellow. Number one, green tea has less caffeine than coffee, but also it has this amino acid in it that naturally blunts the effects of um the uh of caffeine. Yeah. I like this one. I've cycled on and off this one, and this one I feel if I have to wake up in the middle of the night and use the restroom, uh, I feel like this heaviness uh when I use it, which I like, and then I can go back to sleep usually fairly well.
SPEAKER_00Wow, that sounds wonderful. I wonder what that's right, yeah. You should try it.
SPEAKER_01You don't feel heavy when you wake up in the middle of the night.
SPEAKER_00I feel terrified that I'm not gonna be able to fall back asleep. Yeah, personally try that one.
SPEAKER_01Um, next is GABA gamma amino butyric acid. And this one is definitely mixed, um, but I kind of like it uh on this one. And this also crosses the uh blood-brain barrier and promotes sleep and calmness. Um, you can also take some of these during the day if you if you're going for a job interview, also you should you should practice this first, and you're too hyped up for the job interview, take some of these calming supplements and they can work. Now, you don't want to go in lethargic either, so gosh, people you gotta experiment with these things beforehand. Just like you would. You know how the um golden rule of swimming? Any sport, don't change your diet, right? Right. Keep the same diet, don't experiment with anything at the big meat. You experiment with it before. So uh GABA can work. Uh next is ashwagandha. Very popular right now in the literature because a couple studies showed that testosterone levels were increased with ashwagandha. It's mixed. Um more than that.
SPEAKER_00That's because it blunts cortisol, right? I mean, sorry, I'm an amateur knowledge of and and cortisol would would bind up some uh testosterone, so that would be the that that's the sort of the theory, right?
SPEAKER_01It's a possible mechanism, yes. Yeah. Uh the it does promote calmness. Um, the exact mechanism, and we don't quite know how Ashwagandha is working uh to promote this calmness, but uh that can also work. 300 to 500 milligrams before bed um is a good dose. And again, these are low doses. Maybe you need more, maybe you need less. So again, experiment. Um, but that that one's okay. And again, this is not a comprehensive list of all the sleep um promoting supplements or calmness promoting supplements that are on the market. These are just ones I put together. And then lastly, Melatonin. Now, this is a hormone. The pineal gland in your brain releases melatonin and begins to release melatonin when the sun goes down. And melatonin actually doesn't promote sleep itself, it starts to cascade of events that eventually lead to sleep. So what you're doing when you supplement with melatonin is increasing your own internal supply. Now it has been suggested that if you take supplemental melatonin, your body has chemo receptors and says, Oh, I have this much melatonin circulating. I'm fine. Hey, pineal glands, go ahead and back off on how much you're you're producing because somehow we already have enough in the body. And so you can blunt your own natural secretion if you take melatonin um constantly or um chronically, if you take it chronically. And so it is recommended that melatonin only be taken for jet lag right before a race, uh, a meat, or a couple nights before meat. Let's say you want to get really good sleep two nights before your swim meet, take it then. Um again, experiment with it. Um I have heard the most variability with melatonin supplementation than any other supplement. It gives some people nightmares, um, some people sleepwalk, and so the brand seems to be really important um with how it interacts with your physiology. Which brings me to, real quick, what brand? Um I did a project in grad school of making my own supplement company, and it was super easy here in Washington State. And I could have just made a sugar pill, fancy label, and started selling it. So you do have to be very careful. One one label you should be looking for is NSF for sport. And they have an app, and these are not guaranteed, but they go through a number of um production quality, um production quality. Um what's the word I'm looking for?
SPEAKER_00Protocols testing to determine what's actually inside them because otherwise, you know, you don't know for purity and what's in the ingredient.
SPEAKER_01So it's not guaranteed, but you're more likely to be safe if you look for an NS NSF certified supplement. Um so download that app and look at what brands uh are paying for that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think that's a particularly important piece of advice because we we we did gave that disclaimer at the front. And really, you know, we're talking to adults, we're talking to master swimmers here. Um, you probably, if you follow the swimming news, you you've seen a bunch of people who um have failed drug tests and claim that they took uh tainted supplements. So I if I'm giving advice to uh somebody that's um you know it in an actively drug tested um sport, I I I'm almost just say like avoid any kind of supplementation because I cannot trust what's going on. Um I could not I could not tell you um I don't I could not tell you what works and when what's guaranteed um or if anything really is guaranteed to be nothing's guaranteed um no to to be pure. Um, you know, but we're talking a lot to adults to master swimmers here. Um despite the fact that Lance Armstrong wasn't allowed to compete in master swimming. I think the you know they relied on Wada to do the hard work for them there. There's um let me just say uh if you think that um there's not performance-enhancing drug use at Masters Nationals, um you're a little bit naive. Uh that's just my personal uh anecdotal opinion. I don't recommend um actively seeking that stuff out, but I also wouldn't worry as much um on the on the purity um aspect of it. Still, but it's important from the perspective of you want to know what you're putting into yourself as best you can. Um so I think it's a good point to bring up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I mean I guess uh I will, as we said, we'll we'll we'll put that stuff up there. Um as you were talking, it did remind me of a few points that I uh and and tips and tricks and and strategies that I've learned uh over the years. You you talked about um timing of eating. I find it's uh extremely beneficial to have a consistent uh falling asleep and and waking time. I think that's probably one of the reasons why a lot of people struggle with sleep uh when they have kids, because it's very hard to maintain a consistent sleep and wake time when you have you know uh young kids that you know could could be up at any time, right? And require uh you to be somewhat wakeful to attend to them in some shape or fashion. Um but you know, as you as my my my youngest is five now, so pretty much um, and I try to impart this on my kids too, give them a real consistent um uh uh sleep and uh wake cycle. I mean, I think one of the interesting things is again, too, uh one one of the things we take for granted, um, most of us with small kids is like we don't just like throw them in bed and be like, go to sleep. And I think that's what many of us are actually doing to ourselves when we're trying to fall asleep. We just go from this high level of activity to like, okay, lights off sleep time now, you know, like we're just running around. Whereas, like, you know, kids, you'll read them a book, you'll put them in pajamas, you brush the teeth, like, you know, you you know, hug them and snuggle them a little bit. Like there's a routine. There's a routine. There's there's and that's um, you know, to the extent that you can recreate some of that stuff for yourself, it does help as an adult to um start signaling to yourself well before the moment when you're actually going to try to fall asleep that like sleep is coming and we're we're headed in that um headed in that direction.
SPEAKER_01And another important aspect of that is if you do wake up in the middle of the night or have trouble falling asleep right away, don't stress. Just it's fine. Pick up a book, start reading. Uh that stress leads to more of not sleeping. And just yeah, try not to fret over not sleeping. And you're you know what? One night of crappy sleep, we're all fine. Two nights we're all fine. But after three or four nights, your body should uh adapt and adjust and allow you to sleep that next night.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I I you know I think that's a very important point. Like uh, as somebody again who's dealt with lifelong insomnia, um, I never lay awake trying to fall asleep for more than 20 minutes. Right. When I reach that 20 minute mark, that's a time for me to just like do something else and at least if I'm gonna try again, just reset, you know. Um yeah, because I think the hardest thing is um, you know, if you're somebody who is really dedicated and ambitious and likes to get after it, you know, like you exert a high level of like discipline and control. And the moment where you try to fall asleep is all about letting go. And, you know, for people out there, uh, I know a lot of uh whom I've worked with uh who have really struggled with sleep, it's usually people who are um, it's not it's not for lack of discipline in a certain sense. It may be, they may be have some poor habits around that that step down to um sleep, but there's a lot of people I think who struggle with sleep who are um actually quite disciplined people who exert like a lot of motivation and um and just general control over their yeah, they have a lot of drive. And it's hard, it can be hard for them to then just turn it off. Turn that off for a little while. Um, I happen to live with somebody who um my wife who you know like we're like perfect yin and yang for each other because she can fall asleep like almost anywhere, anytime, um, doing anything. And so I just marvel um at her. And um, you know, uh being with her all day, I can tell that uh it's not necessarily that she has better habits than me, it's not necessarily that she's um even processing stress. She's she leads a uh she's she leads a pretty stressful lifestyle. Um but you know, we all wear this a little bit differently, and I happen to be uh one of those people who um you know kind of a leading indicator of other stuff um not operating optimally in my life is is is sleep, and for her it's other stuff. You know, she can always get a good night's sleep. So um, you know, I I think that's useful to me in the sense of um uh just a psychological concept here as well, is um not thinking of this as like a problem that you have to like you know eradicate, like my poor sleep. That that does not lead to uh improving your sleep, right? Well, it's like you have you are who you are, and and yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01The reason we train in swimming, we go like, oh, this is a huge problem. I can't go one minute in some events. We don't think of it like that. We think, oh, well, let's start training so we can do that. Same thing here with sleep, but let's develop a protocol so that we can go to sleep. It's not a problem. Yeah, so don't stress out. Let's just try to get better.
SPEAKER_00We'll go whatever whatever level you're at, it's made you on some level successful. It's gotten you to where you are, um and it's good to want to improve it, right? Yeah, but that's what you're working on. You're not trying to um you're not trying to destroy some setback, right? Um you're you're you're trying to um be a better version of yourself. And um I think if you can do that, it can get easier because again, as somebody that has had a hard time with it, um thinking of it as a problem can can multiply exacerbate its power in my own mind, uh and in a way that I that's not helpful to me in getting better and getting to the next step.
SPEAKER_01So, some more resources as we sign off here. Uh Andrew Huberman has a number of podcasts uh with sleep experts. And uh Dr. Peter Atia also has a few podcasts on sleep and how to get better sleep. And usually they're interviewing someone like Dr. Matt Walker, who is head of the uh what's he head of at Cal Berkeley, the Sleep Science Institute. Uh so those three, uh Andrew Huberman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, Dr. Peter Atia, and Dr. Matt Walker are great resources. A number of podcasts uh to listen to them, to them to uh get better sleep.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and uh, you know, uh as I've been talking with you across uh Trevor, I I um I've been playing around in my mind uh about strategies for maybe breaking free from this lifelong dependency on ambient. So if I if I figure out a way to do that, um I'm gonna be sure to share it in this space. Um it sounds like you need to take the leap of faith. Yeah, yeah. Uh maybe, maybe it's it's uh uh I'm still working on the strategy, Trevor. You know, we'll but we'll talk more about that offline.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we will.
SPEAKER_00Um thank you to everybody for listening. Thank you, Trevor, for uh being here as well and sharing your knowledge. Um, I know that there are people out there that really benefit from hearing from you. And uh because I hear from them, I even sent you one uh today. So um thanks everybody for listening, and uh, I'll see you again next week.