Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I am Chris DeSantis and I am joined as I frequently am by Joel Rawlings. No adjective this week, Joel. Just Joel. Correct. Just Joel. Just me. Joel and his coffee and his prince mug. And he's gonna he's gonna try to not do too much slurping into the mic. Like not directly into the mic. Is that a you can you promise that?
SPEAKER_01Uh what about the audible sigh when you just kind of go off on some insanely boring rift?
SPEAKER_00Right. It's like this is how you hook people in right at the beginning. Yeah. They they know, like, instead of telling them on the podcast, I I try to make an inside joke about the two of us. Yeah, that's what's relevant to the people. And actually, that's the central question that we're gonna get to today. Um, you know, and I think some of it is um born out of you've been you've been out there in the space, you've been talking to people from across the country, you've been talking to people from across the country, you've been having experiences. Um, and I have too. And I think, you know, part of our question intersects with um, I think a lot of questions that people are asking themselves about social media, about culture, about um changes in culture and how you keep up. Um, but I'm gonna turn it over to you, and then you're gonna get, you know, you can get the ball rolling with the question here, and then we'll we'll be off to the races here on this podcast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so uh one of the things I was thinking is um is is people are getting into interviews, and um it used to always be getting into interviews, right? Yeah, yeah. Well but but I mean other people are obviously applying for jobs too. You see on Swim Swam, you see on um in Sibylla News, things like that, all the jobs they're opening up. And and so it used to be the typical question was like, you know, what's your background, what's your coaching philosophy, where do you see yourself in five years? You know, those are those are the core ones. And now the core ones are um what experience do you have with diversity? Um, what are some ways that you would address this, uh, these kinds of issues, what would be you know, X, Y, and Z, whatever the issue might be, but it usually reverse reverts to diversity, experience with diversity, and um and always they ask, like, you know, what are some areas of improvement? And one of the things I was thinking was the idea of how quickly everything um has changed in the past, well, since COVID and on forward, you know, uh, you think about there's a lot of tension obviously out there you know, living outside of Portland. I mean, the cultural norms change very, very quickly, and and what's what's uh acceptable, not acceptable, what's um what is like polite culture or something like that. Like just referring to hello, miss, you know, like right away you're you're assuming something, you know, you're you're maybe you're jumping to some sort of so what used to be, you know, addressing someone as sir, miss things like that was just you know, at one point was just you know, this is what we would do.
SPEAKER_00And now it's a reliably polite thing to do, and now it's possibly quite rude.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly that's a much better way of I was trying to figure out a way to phrase it, but that's exactly right. Is that and I I I was telling you beforehand the the story about how um you know we used to show movies on the on the college bus and things like that, and so it'd let the kids pick it out, and all of a sudden the kids would start picking out ones that are pretty offensive, like to the bus driver. And so we're like, all right, well, let's pull that out. So I'm like starting to think, all right, well, I'll pull out a movie that I didn't find offensive. And then I think, you know, like we'll go back to like 2003. It's like, well, that was before I was coaching college, and I was just watching that as a person at a movie theater, and it wasn't offensive to me, but all of a sudden now it's like 18 years later, it's like, oh my gosh, this is a little bit offensive. And so, like, all right, I'll go all the way back. G movies. And so it became um, I pulled out Bad News Bears. The very first one, Walter Mathau, and it was like the most incredibly offensive movie I've ever seen in my life.
SPEAKER_00I mean, again, right off the bat, right?
SPEAKER_01It doesn't waste any time getting into the offensive con so it starts with Walter Mathau driving around, drinking and driving, no seat belt on, pouring whiskey into it into his uh tall boy Budweiser, you know, kids in the backseat, where you're like, again, that's not offensive, but then all of a sudden the kids start using, you know, hard like N-words and oh all this crazy stuff. F-bomb to drop in. Then you go to the F-bomb, but that's what kept it G. But it was it was funny that what was G then was you could like make fun of ethnicities, you couldn't you couldn't say a swear word, you know. And so I had to pull that out immediately. And I was thinking again, when when you lock something away like that, like like uh this is probably from 77, also reopen it in 2022, it's like this is really offensive, or like you think back to a lot of the movies in the 80s, oh, this is a cute rom-com thing, it's like, oh, that's actually a story about date rape. This is horrible. I can't believe we watched this. And um, and and so again, we the thing is like, how do I basically not become the dinosaur of that film? How do I not like all of a sudden get locked into an idea where all of a sudden I can inadvertently become, you know, do something offensive? And and I think that's the thing is I always tried to be open with the teams I was coaching. Like, listen, if I ever say anything that that that you understand, you know, technically whatever, ask questions. But also now you have to have the caveat, if I ever say anything that's offensive, I I hope that you understand that it's inadvertent um and it's more of my ignorance than it is out of hatred. And how do we kind of address that, you know, like day one of a meeting or anywhere along the way that you have that line of communication where their first response is, hey, I'm gonna help educate you into what might be a little more appropriate this time, versus, hey, this is an HR deal, and we're we're gonna have to have you removed from the team immediately.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I think so you're you're making me think I actually so I started writing again. And in the intro to the first blog post I made in two and a half years, I did leave this caveat, which is I literally have no idea whether I will be interested in sustaining this. I could write once and then not want to write again for two and a half years, and I've just sort of come to accept that about myself. But then, of course, when it rains it pours. So I I immediately had a second thing to write. And I've got a second blog coming out, and the whole gist of it is is along the themes of of what I think when when you ask that question, which is um, you know, I actually have found that contrary to the I think popular, like hyper, hyper aggressive, masculine like business advice I get, that a key to uh what has helped me to be successful has been making other people comfortable saying no to me. You know, so um and I I I go back and I tell the story of um my senior year in high school, and I asked a girl to to prom. I didn't know her particularly well, um, but she was pretty and she was athletic, and she I thought she was pretty cool. And I I think really in my own mind, I just thought, like, good, box checked, I will not lose social status with my peers if this is the person that's standing next to me, you know, in in my senior prom photos.
SPEAKER_01Um I thought you were gonna go with it, won't it won't seem so bad when she rejects me like all the others, but okay. This is this is a different outcome. I I didn't produce it. She said, please go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Here's the thing. She said yes, but she should have said no. Because I looking back, like we didn't even really know each other. She didn't particularly want to go with me, I think. Um, I knew find that out because a week out she she got a different date to the dates. You know, so um I I think that when I reflect on that though, I it was crushing, right? It's crushing when you're uh a 17-year-old boy to lose your prom date a week out. Um but I ended up in a better place in in the in the short term, and honestly, I think when now as like an adult looking back on it, I go, you know, she probably felt real bad when I asked her, and that's why she said yes, even though she really wanted to say no. And I wish we'll call that pity yes. Yeah, the pity yes. And I think, you know, I think uh to draw that back to what we're talking about, you go, you know, should we have the team meeting at the beginning of the year where you say, I'm gonna make some mistakes? I think what you want as a leader is you want people to be able to tell you that they think you're wrong. Like you want people to you want to have a release valve so that people can tell you that they think you are wrong way before you chronically like you're chronically rude. Because at the core of it, like some of the scenarios that you presented, right? Like you have somebody and you know what you think is a is a polite way of addressing them is actually quite rude to them. My my whole theory on this on the other end is people can tell you what they people can decide for themselves how they'd like you to address them. But I but I don't think it's necessarily reasonable um for everybody to expect you to like know ahead of time. But what you should have is a climate where if you mess up as a person, those people feel like they can be like, hey, um please don't please don't call me miss. Like I don't that's not how I want to be addressed. Here's how I'd like to be addressed.
SPEAKER_01And I think when you going back to what you said about chronic rudeness, too, the idea is like not like you're offensive in every single category. The idea would be like if something's black, white and you called it red, and then you keep on calling it red, then they can at least go at some point. So by chronic rudeness, you mean like like continuing to use like in this this example a pronoun that's incorrect and you continue to do it, that being the chronic rudeness, not like you're offensive in in all these 18 different areas. Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_00So I think I think the goal is you want to have an atmosphere where um people can tell you stuff and and and you know have an open conversation with you about what you want. Um and there's some basic things, you know, like what somebody would like to be called, um, how they'd like to be addressed, I think, that are just like that they're not a big deal in at the at the end of um at the end of everything. Like it's it's it's really like, hey, you know, my name's Christopher, but there's only two people in the world that call me Christopher. My dad and my wife. So everybody else calls me Chris. So if somebody else calls me Christopher, I go, call me Chris. And that's it. And we move on, and they call me Chris, basically, every other time. It's not a big deal if somebody, you know, who doesn't know me comes up and goes, Christopher, you know, because that's my legal name, and they read it on, you know, on my ID, and they go, What can I do for you today, Christopher? Like, um, but at the same time, if somebody, if I if I have that interaction with somebody, I go, hey, call me Chris, and they go, Okay, Christopher, then I'm like, all right, what's what's your deal? Like, why are you insisting on plowing ahead with something? Like, what does it do for your ego to just like ignore what I want to be called? You know?
SPEAKER_01Um I think that's a good example too, because again, it's I think too many times people are like, oh, this is about woke culture or something like that. And it's not about woke culture, it's about you know just being polite. I I think it is again, you want to value the people on your team. And and this is like step one of the baseline of how they value. And so in your example, again, for you when you're getting carded for trying to buy beer again and they call you Christopher because that's on your ID, and you're like, just call me Chris, and right away it creates this kind of there's always there's already this barrier level now. Now you've already kind of had this wall, like, why is this guy already calling me this? And then it kind of it's just gonna go from there where now you're already I think we we put people in boxes so quick in the idea of like, well, he's already attacking me. Everything from here on out is gonna be an attack, versus again, where you stand already like it's Chris.
SPEAKER_00See, I think it's I I actually think it's the opposite. I think like, for instance, right, I don't correct people that I'm buying beer from. Not that they ever like look at my ID and then address it. That's not not necessarily the example, but there are examples where people see my name on the form and I'm never gonna interact with them again. And I don't really care what they call me. Right, gotcha. You know, but I think if you get to the stage of like, hey, here's what I'd like you to call me, it's not, it's it's actually the opposite of attack. It's a trusting move. You go, like, right, hey, I know you want to be nice to me, here's what I'd like to be called. And so you're actually opening up in that step. And I guess to to go back to the original question, you know, if you're if you're somebody that's in charge of a team, I think you want people to be comfortable like interacting with you in that way. I don't subscribe to the the sort of theory of coaching where it's like there should be this big power. I I like to refer to it as power distance, right? Between the people that you coach and you. So it's like you are you know the s the font of all knowledge relative to what's happening there, and nobody can question you, and nobody like I think that's how we get into a lot of messed up situations, and it doesn't it doesn't really help because at the end of the day, you know, one of the things that I I run into in coaching is if you can create an atmosphere like that, when people buy into what you're doing, it's because they actually believe in what you're doing, they're not going to actually believe in something else, but I you know, I can't, I can't, I have there's no way for me to express that. So I'm just gonna override what I believe in and follow along with this. It's never gonna be as powerful as somebody going, you know what? That guy's got it, and I'm gonna listen to what he's gonna say, and I'm gonna follow, I'm gonna follow his lead on something. Right, it's just never gonna be as powerful.
SPEAKER_01I think again, we've always talked about like the the evolution of athlete empowerment, especially. And I always kind of draw it to like you know, pro basketball, kind of showing and leading the way of that. And and it kind of goes into swimming too. You think about the 80s kind of coach where I know everything, this is what we're gonna do. And it's like I think part of that, you know, not that they're trying to bully athletes, but that's kind of what it does do. What they're trying to do is try to establish it where it's like you have complete faith in what I'm doing because I'm so certain you'll be certain that no matter what we do, it's gonna lead to success. You just do exactly what I say. And so again, I think a lot of times it was best intentions, but again, it can also go a little bit too far in that you know, we've seen too many times where people are just like, okay, I'm just not gonna listen to my body anymore. I'm just gonna listen to whatever the coach says. Or, like I've said in the past, is the idea of if you're always winning the argument, if you're always winning the fight, um I think you start to like you know create these basically lap dogs, you know, people are just obedient, exactly listening, and not the people that are like again willing to go critical thinking skills. You know, if you're always telling them how to do things, how to act things, and I'm gonna, you know, this is how we're gonna work, and this is how we're gonna address, and this is what we're gonna do. And then when you get into a meet and you expect them to think on the fly when their goggles break or something like this, well, you've been laying everything out for them the whole time. How do you expect them to do something like, hey, just get some different goggles? Hey, tell the starter to wait a second. You know, again, I I I like the idea of again creating where it's like kind of a decentralized leadership where they have so they have autonomy. They can do some things and they know they're not going to get beat down for it. What you want to know is more about the rationale behind it. So the rationale is why did you do this? And again, that's not coming out as confrontational. That's just coming out. Why I just want to know the rationale, what you're doing, and let's adjust address the process rather than always just addressing outcomes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I think there's there's I think at the core of it, there's a misunderstanding here. I think actually there's a couple misunderstandings. One of the misunderstandings is, you know, I think that that you know, that everybody should follow exactly what I'm um what I'm what my program is, philosophy. Actually, you know, the reason why people think that works in the first place are athletes who are finding a way to make use of whatever it is. We've talked about this before. That this is one of my own hobby horses. It's it's it's athletes who are finding a way to make any kind of coaching you're giving useful. Right. So then you go then you like you form an assumption based off that, well, my coaching must be exactly what they need. Well, they've made it exactly what they need. That doesn't mean it's it is exactly what everybody that you're coaching needs. It just means that you have one particular athlete who's very good. And I guess if I if I flip that piece um on its head, you know, from an athlete perspective, and I work with athletes on this all the time, you know, and they'll I I I'm very open at the beginning, you know, I go, like, hey, we're gonna end up in situations where we're gonna talk about whoever's coaching you, and maybe you're gonna be frustrated about something, you're gonna have a frustrating situation. My job is to help you with frustrating situations. But you know what I'm not gonna do? I'm not gonna sit here in judgment of your coach on the other end at any point. So so, you know, um, unless you come to me and tell me something that, you know, is like I'm like a mandated reporter. There you go. Yeah, you know, like, yeah, I'm not I'm not gonna be here and be like, you know, actually, that's pretty bad coaching. Like, uh, I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. What I'm the conversation I'm gonna have is how you can make whatever situation you're in work for you. And yeah, like people can look at that at a in a very adversarial way and say, like, oh, well, that's just you know, like giving in to the coach on the other end. No, I think it's you know, on it if I'm if I'm coaching the sport of swimming, would I like to see writ large, you know, people be more compassionate, more empathetic, um, more kind to each other? Yes. If I'm coaching an individual athlete looking up at the coach, would I like them to find ways to, you know, make more of what the coach does work for them? Even if it's accepting that you're never gonna have a perfect coach who's gonna make zero mistakes or do zero things that will upset you or um give you pause or you know, throw you completely off your emotional kilter. You know, like so what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do about that? What's your strategy? Um because if you can build on that, then you have the skills to be adaptable in a number of situations. And reality is, you know, especially with a lot of the athletes I work with, you know, like maybe you're you're on a college team, you're one of 50. What should if I'm working with you, should I work to make um your coach the person I don't even coach? Should I try to make them more uh more perfect, or should we try to improve you? You know, and I think there's an opportunity. Like I got into a conversation yesterday, this is a final point I'll make on this, um, where somebody was they were having a hard time with their coach. And uh part of it was a conflict between what I'd said and what the coach says. You know, um one of my things that I'm always speaking to is I don't I don't believe in the statements that go some some shape of you have to do this or you won't improve. Right. Like I don't I don't I don't think that's right um to coach that way. And I coach people individually to stop making those statements to themselves, right? To actually replace that with replace uh and in many instances as you can, I have to do this or else with I want to do this because right, right, right. Right. And so the coach is coming back, sorry, the athlete was coming back to me and saying, like, and coach, you know, it makes me so mad. He's always saying, you know, you have to do this, like, or you have to be within four seconds of your best time on all these 50s, or you won't get better. And I go, and and she's and the person I'm coaching, they just go, like, and that's just not right. That doesn't, that's not helping me to get better. That won't, and I go, okay, so your statement about him is um that you don't think it's fair he's saying you have to do this or else you won't improve. But your statement back to him is what he's doing is making it impossible for you to improve. Right? Like we can't then we have a stalemate. Both sides are just saying, you my way or nothing. Right. And and that is that is a recipe for not succeeding at anything in life. Um, you have to create some kind of grounds for people to have an exchange um and and some kind of interplay and come closer to believing the same thing. Otherwise, you're not really working together at the end of everything.
SPEAKER_01No, those are excellent points. I think um again, just just trying to create um that that ability to have dialogue, and and I also know a lot of coaches I've talked to, they're like, I've got 40 people in the water at once. know it's like I've got an I've got it two hours so like that's less than like you know two minutes of quality time with each kid so you want me to go through ten minutes of conversation is like I I think what you need is is that just every day that that establishment of open uh and honest dialogue and things and and for me as a college coach especially at a division three level was I I knew that basically I'm gonna have to work with what I have you know and so if if we have kids coming in and they can't do something that they they need to communicate with me and that that ends up saving more time you know again not not the two minutes of quality time each day for one person but them coming in understanding that if they can come up and tell me right away what they need that's gonna save us at least two years you know instead of like well this season didn't work you know this this taper didn't work so the next year we'll do a different taper and it's like oh it's not really the taper it's the work and so year three now okay we'll do different work so it's like that's three years gone and you're still just grasping at straws versus day one I remember uh one of the more talented kids I had coming in it was like um you know she could have a lot of division one opportunities but she knew that she wasn't going to get that conversation it was gonna be like listen you got to fit in with what you do here and you know adapt or die kind of thing and so she was smart enough to figure that out and so she came in and for her instead like I I you know I see sometimes those people hold on to their ideas of training we have to do USRPT we have to do workworks we have to do whatever was and for this is like if I want a talented kid it's gonna be like whatever works and so we you know I'd never done reverse periodization where we worked speed to begin with we did that with her and it was actually ended up being successful but the only reason I knew to do that and I never would have even attempted that is if she didn't come in day one and tell me about that. So again it I think it's um the idea of like you do something well you do everything well you know if if you have communication about even even the whatever pronoun they want to be called it again that one step in the right direction of then it's okay to also talk about training you know and then it's also to talk about tapering. It's also talk it could about all the other things that go with their life and everything that goes into their swimming. And that's the more I kind of read about like you know neurobiology and exercise physiology and sports psychology is it's all one. It's all one thing. Stress is is basically just a basic biological reaction to something and that stressor could be actually physical it could be something you're terrified of it could be whatever you're terrified of in your head. It's all the same. And so the same thing here if if you're creating a stressful environment even unwittingly that's putting even more burden on your athletes that that you don't need and that you need to uh again is it's gonna affect their training in some way and so you're gonna be moving the variables that you you know you can control rest work this this in the one variable you really need to do maybe just is the culture.
SPEAKER_00Right. I mean how many of us I this is a question I thought of as I was listening to you talk how many people do you know who are like say in one outside one you know corner of their mouth they go you know nobody can take honest feedback anymore and then they completely emotionally like crumble when they get honest feedback from other people. You know what I mean like they're like I I just think for for all of us it's worth like looking at the things that are bothering you and then realizing the only person that you can truly influence is yourself. Like you you the biggest difference you can make so like if you're a coach my my advice if you're a coach and you're looking around your team and you go nobody um nobody can take honest feedback anymore start showing people how to take honest feedback. Like start seeking out opportunities for people to give you honest feedback for people to see you getting honest feedback and to see you handling it in a healthy emotional way.
SPEAKER_01And in that same same vein it's um what I've noticed too is is people would believe in what I'm saying as being right a lot more times when I admitted to being wrong. We're like you geez you're absolutely right I was I was off on that and I and I'm sorry and let's let's do this differently I think it it increases the amount of faith they have in you as a leader uh because they understand that if if the boat's going off course you're gonna correct the ship as early as possible not after it's already in the rock. Yeah and you're honest right you're honest and I I you know uh most people I think end up underassuming how many lies they get away with telling you know just because people don't go immediately like hey that was that was a lie you know yeah um and so which is this the same thing you said earlier about like the idea of chronically offensive again it it's the foundation of just the one kind of lie that you keep on repeating you don't even realize that you know boy now's got everything that you say is under you know basically kind of suspicious now if you if you like when I'd recruit some kids I you know you'd look at their tweets like whoa this is a racist tweet now everything that you're just kind of like everything is a little bit tainted now because like well they said this once so it's the same thing here like if you say something outward and people just kind of let it slide but they're all of them are kind of going whoa I don't think that's right. Now everything is you're gonna be like even things that are like you know are right it's like he was wrong this one time and he didn't correct himself you know and and so I think you kind of built you have that foundation where it's it's not as solid as you think and then when you really have these uh the tough decisions to make the end of the season kind of decisions to make uh you you don't you think you've got a stronger foundation than you do and I think that's when you get um you know a lot of unhappiness or at the end of the season there there's people will will start to come back at you and you're like where is this coming from? Everything was great all year long. It's like actually it wasn't you just weren't able to read the room.
SPEAKER_00Right. I mean one of the things I do actually and I've done uh I just did when I was in Denmark a few weeks ago um is I realized that you know like I don't know if you've ever been in a team environment where you all of a sudden decided like okay actually we're gonna have a team meeting today and we're gonna really let people air it out. You know like I just want to find out what's going on. Right. And you open that up and then two hours later you're like are we going to ever be able to close this back up because people got rolling and then there's like a somebody in the corner room and goes hey and another thing you know there's no soap in the shower when every time after practice I go to take a shower they don't replace the soap in the soap and you're like you're thinking like oh my gosh we're really going down a rabbit hole here and like what did I do? Like was this productive in any shape or form I have been thinking about that a lot and I think you know if you can actually like that intent where you go like hey you you maybe even you're listening to this and you go okay like I want to get people telling me like stuff if you can stay in that space where you go there's a lot of opportunity in um people saying what's bothering them. I I I went to this team in Denmark and I just like I was like guys what sucks right now just give me everything you got you know and I just I spent I said we're gonna we're gonna have we're gonna set a time limit on it like we're only gonna have a certain amount of time but like within that time you just like let loose about everything everything that's bothering you everything you think's not good everything you know that is is you just think is wrong with your situation here because the opportunity in all of those is the things that bother people the things that people um they think are are wrong those are triggered by what they actually value. So on the mirror side of every single one of those things is something really positive for your team right um and if you can if you can show people that like hey um the reason if I go back to my example the reason why you're really bothered by you know the lack of soap dispensers is you think it's really important that you know people um take pride in their job and you know make sure it gets done every day then that's gonna be like how how can you actually step into that and value that on our team rather than being somebody who goes around you know saying like and you're wrong and you're wrong and you're wrong and you're wrong. You know, how can you be the leader on this team that goes all right I have an idea of how we're gonna do this right and and here's how we'll actually apply it. So there's an opportunity in all those things. There's a there's an opportunity also for you to learn there's an opportunity for you to grow and improve. I think if you can bring the attitude in as a leader that goes like hey man it's great when people come to me with stuff because I learn from those experiences and I keep getting better as a coach. And instead of you know leaning into that ego piece where you go like oh man like I I screwed up again you know that that that doesn't help you know if as a coach like you know that that attitude doesn't help the people you coach to get better. And so you know you have a choice you have an opportunity to also go a different direction and have a different approach to um people people giving you feedback.
SPEAKER_01I think also uh kind of the example of the soap dispenser is a good one in that um it's one of those things where I whenever whenever people start with that I always knew that that wasn't the issue that that there's it's like at least six layers deeper than than the soap dispenser. But again when you're that's like a test balloon they're like let's see if anybody wants to do something about the the test they'll throw that out there just because it's like again that it's I I think it's one of those things like like if you hurt your like I've hurt my back and it's like reaching for a pen is like oh my everything is just painful after that point. The same thing as like when you have that base pain of something whatever it is that's actually troubling that athlete to say the soap dispenser everything is troubling them. Everything around them is is just awful and then it like then they start taking on other athletes like they don't like their attitude. It's like well and then you're like well it's your attitude that's the problem. It's like but we've never again all we do is we create that that circular loop around the problem and you end up fixing like every little crack in the tile soap dispenser things like that when they're actually unhappy with their role on the team or their their you know they didn't get a relay spot but they're not going to say that because that's the one thing if you say like I'm not happy I'm on the B relay because they know that's saying that one of those four people shouldn't be on there and I don't want to call them out. I don't want to be the bad teammate I don't want to do this. So now everything else is kind of irritating them. And so I think sometimes we get those kids with that personality and too many times again when you have that like you said that ego the first instinct is like I've got to exert my authority we're gonna crack down on this behavior we're gonna crack down on negativity you know with more negativity. You know we're gonna like address the bad morale by more beatings versus again like let's the beatings will continue until the morale improves I think exactly right on and so the same thing here is like and so what what do you do like again when you hear that because initially I think and I know I've done this in the past like when I first tried coaching with someone say well the scope dispenser you're like you entitled little you know just right away it's like this is ridiculous. But how do you get complaining about that? Yeah like right and and so it helped a lot when all of a sudden I started going okay is this really the issue or is there's there's something deeper so how do you kind of again you you let's say you you pulled the uh pulled the cork out of that bottle of negativity and all of a sudden there's a big team like again spiral or cyclone of of death and despair how do you like you know tie that up at the end and go let's let's like let's stop and address this or how do you actually get to the real things especially when the real things might be again if it's your relay spot you're saying like Chloe should not be on the relay I should be on the relay you know without doing that.
SPEAKER_00You know how how do you get it so that they come to you with what's what's the real thing here now that again you've already started this death spiral of a meeting yeah I mean I think make people like push push people I said make people you know yeah there you go sometimes the language that I don't want to I say I say try to funnel that stuff into people actually getting to what it is they value beneath it. Okay. And I I think if you if you force people to walk through all the logical pieces of it yeah you might have some people on the other end who goes like who have created very complex logic around solving the emotional problem that they have but more more I think more often than not you are going to get to the bottom of like somebody who goes yeah like I'm pissed I want to be on that relay. And then that's your opportunity to be like I love that about you. I want people on my team that want to be on the relay and I want people who are going to come in here and go damn it I should be on the relay right and let that passion shine because you know you talked about stress earlier to me the revelation I've had this spring about stress is stress is stress is a high interest like it's a it's a collateral you offer for denying how you're feeling right you know like what's really it's not stressful to think that you belong on the relay to be mad that you're not on the relay and come in and go like I belong on the relay hear me roar that's not stressful. You know what is stressful thinking you belong in the relay being angry about being on the relay and going I I shouldn't say anything. Yeah let me just keep that you know like you want to have a team where people can just release that and it doesn't mean that you have to go oh you know like you made a big show and you were mad now I'm changing my relay. You don't have to do anything.
SPEAKER_01You don't have to actually take action but what you want to have is a space where people can be open and honest about how they're feeling do you think like if um so is this is the question that's gonna be predicated on on the first answer like the so like again I I tried to never have those meetings because I've had those where all of a sudden you're like let's get to what's going on here let's get to some honesty. So do you think those those meetings are are are helpful? Second thing is if you do think they're helpful is it better to go like we're gonna talk about this area only or do you we are going to have a time limit on this and then at the end do a summary like you know does everyone feel soap dispensers are a thing that I really go to the athletic director to address right now or is this something again if we just took the top three here we're three so what would be a way if if you do think that the meetings is helpful? If you don't then let me know why. But if you do think those meetings are helpful then how would you make them actually help actually productive and helpful you know it's one thing to vent it's another thing to actually get some productive value out of that time spent out of the pool.
SPEAKER_00Well I think they're helpful but again I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to land that plane and I think a lot of people who have that meeting they're thinking about taking off the plane but they don't know how they're going to land it. So they're like you're asking the right you're asking the right question and I guess I always say um I think it's important you know that you don't give that you that you have some structure around it. So you don't have unlimited amount of time for people to because when when you you're like you've you've seen it when you get people rolling sometimes that momentum like you know unless you've decided ahead of time like I would literally set a time limit go the last time I did it I was like we have an hour and then pizza's coming and like when the pizza arrives we're done with this section. Like we're not we're not coming back to this. Alright so step one is is time limited. Step step one is I think have some structure around it because you cannot just allow it to be like unlimited um time and space and then let people know from the very beginning some idea of where this is headed which is we're not having a meeting that is you know for you to air your grievances and then I'm going to solve them. I'm probably a lot of this stuff here I if I'm being honest I may not be able to help you with it all and I'm like I'm sorry about that um right ahead of time but what I might be able to do by the end of this is to help you think about how you might make this better. And um I think if you can you can frame it in that way and you you you frame it not as like bring all your problems to me and I will you know again the the the the the space of like I am the font of all knowledge and I will just like you know wave my magic wand and then those things will change instead of go like hey I may not be aware of some of this stuff that's going on and we may not have had you know the whole group in here thinking about this. And and there there could be people in this who actually understand like how we can move forward. Right. And so you want to have an idea um because because by nature this like I I can't help but think of um uh Seinfeld now in Festivus you know we begin with the airing of grievances right um but you know you if you stay in the grievance space is all backwards looking but like really what you want is for people to be forward looking and you want them to see them as an opportunity to go I am upset about this because of valuing something and here is how I feel like that I have you want to get them to a space where like I feel like I have a strategy to like better for this team to better step into that value in the future.
SPEAKER_01And I I think one of the things to summarize a little bit uh of of why this is so important because I think a lot of times people are like I don't have time for this you know we we have X amount of time for dryland X amount of time in the water and X amount of time for this like I said before is like if you don't give up one hour somewhere along the line you're basically giving up you're possibly giving up a whole season for like three four or five kids. And so that you need to address that. But also on top of that what I've seen is that you always get a couple hubs where people go with their problems. Like uh the women on the team that I had used to call like a team mom. Oh this is the team mom some senior or something like that and they would all go with their their problems there. And the problem was that one hub whether it's the team mom or on the guy's side whatever the the the one person they kind of go to with their problems or like they viewed like one of the guys on the team some uncle kind of thing they'd go and it became here's my baggage and they drop the baggage off of the door and then the next story would come by drop the baggage off of the door and now I'd have like two or three seniors they're getting stressed out because again they're getting all this baggage and like they don't know what to do with it. They're like I I'm getting everyone else's problems here. And so all that kind of negative emotion I I always looked at as like as weights you know you keep on dropping the weight on them and they've got nowhere to go with that. You know you I read all the time about like you know psychologists having the most you know one of the higher suicide rates because they get everyone's problems and they have nowhere to go with those problems and they get all this negative energy into their body. I think sometimes you get that on your team too where someone who's like who's emotionally caring and means well they've they take on a role that they never ever thought they were going to do. You know they they just keep getting more and more and more they're like I'll listen to this one and then I can't turn this person away I'll listen to another and I'll listen to another and so there needs to be a functional way for the for problems legitimate problems to be addressed. It's one thing to vent but it's when it's like every day every day um you know I got to the point with uh on one of my teams this one woman I just gave her Thursdays off. I'm like just get away from the team go on the treadmill for a while until we can kind of get this figured out and it worked great. She had her best season ever by actually reducing her training load and just getting a little moment to like kind of have her own time because she was one of those like you know organic chem majors whose her you know her workload was through the roof. And then also she's getting a lot as a team captain and she's getting a lot of emotional things on this and there's just so much going on that we're like you know no iPhone nothing just unplug and and just go get on a treadmill for a little while and and just have a little quiet.
SPEAKER_00See and I I've thought about this as well because in in my life like even in my family life in in my professional life because of the position I've staked out like I think a healthy amount of people bring me their problems. I mean they they come to me you know and they they try they drop stuff off. And I guess you know again if we think about stress what stresses me out is the thought that I need to do something like when when people bring their stuff to me. But you know what really actually all I need to do is just acknowledge them. Like I would say 99% of the work is just acknowledging people. I uh with my own children all the time I I I you know I have moments where I catch myself because you know like as kids are young kids they are so much more in tune with their emotions than most adults like they just feel something and they express it right like especially I've got a five year old like that is prime time for just like I feel and I I express. And the great part about that is and the part where I think we get in trouble even as a digression of as parents and I know I get in trouble is I go, oh my God my kid is upset. I need to do something right I need to do something about it. When really all I all I should do is just go like hey I know you're really upset right now. Like I I have I have used that so many times with my own kids where you know like oh I I forgot this thing we have to go back and get it and I go I'm I know you're so upset right now. I know you're so like and I might have to repeat it 10 15 20 times but just acknowledging how they're feeling at the other end like they recover out of what it is and so many times I think when you go and try to like do something what you're signaling to them is like hey I know that you're in an emotionally heightened state right now and like that's got you really activated and if you bring it to me I will also ramp up emotionally and then get activated like to do something because I'm so uncomfortable with you bringing that to me versus like I'm comfortable with you bringing that to me um I acknowledge like and I'm just here I'm listening to what you're saying message received like you did you want me to know like you're pissed off right now I got it.
SPEAKER_01And I think a lot of times coaches are always like we we want to be able to fix it. Again we're thinking time save time I'll just fix it. You know I'll cut your stake for you we'll get it done two minutes later it's done uh and so by fixing problems it's not solving problems it's just it's it's a temporary band-aid and as a coach is like I knew the answer it's it's kind of like it feels good to your own ego that I knew the answer I could fix that. And I I saw that a lot with um with the kids is that you you create that learned helplessness. Kids I mean like you know the swimmers are athletes I was dealing with the idea that they're sending you texts all the time I can't get the schedule right and like I could fix it but I'm like you know um tell you what I'll I'll I'll you know come by the office at some point and we'll talk about it. And invariably they'd be able to fix it themselves five ten minutes later you know they're they're doing an emotional text an emotional outburst thing. And the second thing as you as you're saying that idea of the emotional and not boy I'm just as mad as you are about this is I've seen so many times where like you know kids will get into real problems and they won't go to their parents with it because like I've seen my dad get really mad at this this this how can I go with this right and and instead of the idea of like again take a deep breath take that pause listen to what they have to say acknowledge that what they have to say is like wow this is this is something we need to we need to sit down and think about and I'm sorry you're going through it or whatever appropriate way to really frustrating man yeah yeah exactly I'd be frustrated too like yeah classically mirroring with what exactly what they're saying it is it's like that is very frustrating and and nodding and listening and letting them kind of go through it and then again that emotion starts to wear down a little bit and now they can solve their own problem versus I'm just gonna keep on going over here to fix it because again we keep on talking about you know swimming becoming like a stair step to the rest of their life you know they learn X, Y, and Z through swimming they're going to be you know so much more resilient in life. They can work through any kind of problems like well they can work through problems if they've had problems in the past that they've worked through ones that again aren't as big of a deal as like you know having a death to the family or a job or something like that. If the problem is their goggles keep going undone how do they work through that and again it seems like a silly analogy but the idea again is is like you know going all the way back to the start of the pod the idea that the DVD from the 70s doesn't play now there they're if there's stereotypes along the way I'll say those those little minor things get corrected out. Same thing here if they learn how to fix the small problems eventually they're able to fix the medium sized problems they're able to fix the small the big problems but they're narrow to do that if you're always the dominant I know everything trust me and again it saves time in in the short term but over the course of the season or the course of a career it it's just going to either create learned helplessness or it's going to compound the problem to the point where you get that spiraling of the soap dispense is broken, this is broken, this is broken, and there's 84 different problems now when it actually was just one.
SPEAKER_00Right you you I mean at the end of it I mean the the the the the pull quote here is almost like you know your job is not as a swim coach to um get people to swim fast. It's to teach them how to get there you go yeah like you you're you're not there to teach them how to swim fast. You're there to teach them how to improve how to like work on themselves how to um to actually build up their sense of competence in various situations and yeah like when you go like oh well I'm losing an hour by spending some time working no you're not I mean what you're doing is investing an hour so that you have more time in the future. But like you know it's um it's it's hard because if you're in the same if you're in the same sort of panicked emotional space then you're always also trying to make a short term decision. Oh we we need this two hours today we need to swim people aren't in shape enough and so it won't even matter if we have this meeting if you know like nobody does you know X, Y, and Z today in the in the pool. And um I might be a bit biased but I I I think that it's it's definitely that the the investment in that um the people that that invest in that and and that see it as a long term and even find a way to in the context of yeah we're still going to get in and swim today but like they've they've been so thoughtful about their interactions with the people that they're coaching that they can get some of that you know like in the two three minutes that they might actually talk to somebody in in practice you know like that that the person can be direct to them and communicate to them what's going on. They can come back with a response that like you know helps somebody move forward um and and everybody can get on with their lives. Well I think this has been really productive um I feel like we went on quite a journey from the original question but that's how it always goes um in these things. Appreciate everybody for for listening. Magic5.com slash swim brief get yourself some goggles I um I uh I was wearing mine today and I just want to say RIP my Faroe Islands swim cap from 2012 it finally ripped um and uh so I had that um I had that sensation of uh you know uh have having swum for weeks with a cap on my head and you know aligning the goggle strap underneath and um then I had to regroup no cap. I didn't bring it back up is the point of the story. And it's gonna solve goggles.
SPEAKER_01Yeah so is the is the point I want to create the worst plug ever for a goggle or because I've had nothing but success with my magic fire. I I don't blame the the goggles on my ripping cap.
SPEAKER_00I I again I don't know where you're going with this but they're good goggles they should put in uh Christy and uh yeah get a discount it's a good deal yeah there you go uh swim brief the swim brief you gotta put in the swim brief to get the discount did I say Christy coach I don't know I stopped listening a while ago yeah Christy underscore coach on Instagram CD swim coach on Facebook the YouTube channel whenever Joel and I feel we have a stimulating visual presentation for you to enjoy um uh until next week thanks for thanks for listening and thank you for for being here Joel all right thanks for having me and loving animals yeah this cat's been on my leg the whole hour so yeah all right good