Hello and welcome to the swim brief. Oh, Joel, you don't don't talk over my intro. Okay. We've been over this. All right. I'm back with uh both of my favorite Yahoos. Uh we are today going to discuss um Mike Bottom's big contract extension with uh University of Michigan. And uh we got lucky, you know, because I think we were all sitting around going, like, oh man, what are we gonna talk about on this week? And then Jack Bowerly obliged and retired yesterday. So that's kind of a big deal in the sport of swimming, even though there's no big deals in the sport of swimming, Lori Rawlings. Um anyway, let us have this one um spot of enjoyment. Joining me uh fresh from from the warehouse, the new coolest club in America, Eric Wycan. Eric, how are you?
SPEAKER_01Um a bit tired. I got in about 145 this morning from the light flight chain. So yeah, but good to be home.
SPEAKER_03Great. And uh back from his uh Pacific Coast winery tour, Joel Rawlings.
SPEAKER_04Joel, hey hey, good to see you. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Do you find some good vintages while you're out there?
SPEAKER_04Or yeah, I I just uh if if we ever do that, it's like this all kind of tastes alike to me. So I'll just be designated driver unless we're doing like a beer tour. That's about all I understand, I guess. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, guys, before we get into it this week, uh, due to my criticism of Terry McKeever, actually, we have a new sponsor of the podcast this week. So I just um before we get into things, I'm gonna have to read an ad. Um so everybody just sit tight for a second. Um the swim brief is brought to you by the old boys network. Since 1972, the old boys network has made sure that some of the worst behavior goes unchecked in the name of quote results. Do you have trouble with uppity people wanting change in the stagnant, nonsensical behavior of your local swimming community? Call the old old boys network and we'll be sure to send someone to your area right away. And just in case you didn't think it could get any better, well, it did. The old boys network is now opening membership for women. That's right, women. So come one, come all, and let us show you what the old boys network can do for you. What do you guys think of the new sponsor?
SPEAKER_04I like to do it. It's better than the hammer one, so yeah. Nothing but up. When you set the bar as low as you have, it's nothing but up. This is great.
SPEAKER_01I I love the hammer, I thought it was great.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Sun Yang's hammer. Yeah, come on, guys. Come on. Just you know, I'm look, I'm nothing if not a shameless capitalist. And when the old boys network reached out, you know, they felt really positive about what I did. I wasn't gonna say no, you know. I could use the money, God knows, right? Maybe I finally pay that editor to put links on my YouTube videos, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04Or or track me out from uh talking over your intro.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Get that special auto mute for when I don't want to listen to what Joel has to say.
SPEAKER_04So which contract are you talking about first then? Jack Bowerly, or you want to go right to Mike Bottom? Which one do you want?
SPEAKER_03Let's go, let's go to Mike.
SPEAKER_04Let's um let's go to So now you said this is a big contract, right? So he's getting what five years, 1.1 million. Correct, right? That's $220,000 a year.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04How many, how many kids do you think Mike Bottom's coached that make more than $220,000 a year?
SPEAKER_03I think, I think plenty.
SPEAKER_04Um so that's the thing is I I've got an issue. Like people in the in the in the in the troll board right away, like, oh, look at the big money. It's like, you know, $220,000 for swim coaches. We're like, dang, now that's that's tall cotton. And then all of a sudden we're like, $220,000, like, you know, maybe maybe we should have just got an accounting degree or or gone into like plumbing or HVAC repair or any of these things. But again, it's like we make it sound like this is some sort of amazing contract. It's like, yeah, it's nice, but he's the CEO of basically a million-dollar corporation at Michigan, you know. I mean, he's well, he's not CEO, obviously, there. He's you know, below custodial staff as all swim coaches are, not him, and we're all oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03Joel going right in with just a full slam on the coaching profession. No mercy before we even talk one sentence about this contract.
SPEAKER_04We're we're we're going crazy for 220,000 years, and that's great. But again, again, it's it's Michigan. Isn't he supposed to make a lot of money? You know, he's he's coached Olympians, he's coached all this other stuff. He's like, shouldn't he make a lot of money? Well, and 220,000, still, it's not a lot of money. I mean, again, you look at uh Michigan's football staff, the wide receiver coach, probably you know, he coaches like you know, what, maybe 10 dudes? He probably gets more than 220,000.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, that said, I coach swimming, and I would love if somebody would pay me $220,000.
SPEAKER_04I know we we've we've made serious career professions, and that's why we're doing this right now. We're waiting for you and your sponsorship deals to start getting us some cash.
SPEAKER_03Right. I mean, um, so in the context, I I I hear you, Joel, but like in the context of swimming, this is a lot of money. It's uh still more money than some of the other numbers we've seen thrown around for uh power conference coaches in the recent, you know. I think last year we were all talking about Jeff Papel's figure earlier this year was Chase Kreitler getting $175,000 to coach Pitt. So, you know, this compensation package um is definitely more lucrative than a lot of the other power conference ones. Am I enthused that um, you know, uh a power like the high, high, high end of swim coaching in the United States is about the same as um as a corporate minion where my wife works? No, I don't think that's um great for swim coaching, certainly. Um certainly not great for my swim coaching. And um so it's a little bit weird. I I do think too, this contract though, I mean, this is the bare bones of it, you know, just in terms of compensation. And uh certainly you I think he probably has a couple other income streams um just from being the coach of Michigan on top of this. Yeah. Eric's doing the the the head nod of knowing. Um Eric, what do you think?
SPEAKER_01Um I think I think it's great to see that he's what actually what actually intrigues me more is the bonus structure and how this can quickly multiply.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, he's got a lot of gettable bonuses in this contract.
SPEAKER_01Given their status, Big Ten Conference Championships is a month's base salary. Top 16 at NCAA is not that hard for a Michigan team. Top eight.
SPEAKER_03Well, it was hard for their men's team this year, unfortunately. Yeah, I mean that's my Michigan burn of the day.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, but like 25 grand for a top eight finish. Um it's really fantastic. The thing that I found most funny about this release, and again, maybe they it was in the initial forgot where it was, but when they they linked their previous article of average D1 coaches, like they just took that sum of PowerFive. Want to be a wanna be a a well-paid coach? Yeah, just find one of these two jobs that is really, really hard to get while everybody else brings the average down to 40,000 a year.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, what of these 40 jobs or however many jobs there are, head coaching jobs there are in the power five.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know. I mean, right now the results and the way things are going at Michigan. I don't know. I you know, I'm not I'm not, I guess I'm not one to say whether or not it's it's worth the money. There's been a lot of well, there's a lot of influx everywhere. Kids having to commit earlier means decisions are making at a younger age and then realizing that maybe it's not the best fit, but we're seeing big names leave. And especially when you're leaving for grad school, I think it maybe is just a looking for a different experience, but it's it's interesting to see uh graduates from Michigan leave to go to grad school anywhere else because it's it is a prestigious uh university. So maybe is the maybe just the experience, but then we saw McNeil go to Cal, but now she's opting for LSU, which I don't know where her master's degree is.
SPEAKER_04I read a lot about that too. The uh the the people are kind of bagging that you know that you're losing graduate students. Like I just assume that was you know idiots that they were trolling in, but maybe maybe a lot of people you know have that belief. But it's like you you never not never generally even if you go to Michigan, you go to Harvard, you go to anything that's a prestigious university, you generally don't go to grad school at the same university. It just it uh for especially in like academia and things like that, it just it it show it looks better on your resume as far as in their eyes, it shows that you're a little more uh like well-rounded as far as the education, going to different areas and things like that. I mean, so like Michigan to Cali Berkeley, for instance, that that looks if you if you're staying in Michigan again, not that it's any less, but uh for for whatever reason, it's just that's just kind of how I from what I've seen, how resumes are viewed, you know. Um, you don't just stay at the same place for law school. You go, you know, yeah. So so it just just I just saw that a few times on the on the troll board, and so I wasn't wasn't sure people are going with that. If they're just kind of looking looking for reasons to to bag.
SPEAKER_01No, I just see it, I see a McNeil jumping two years before 2024. You know, it just it I don't know. I just think it's not looking.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, she's definitely trying to find a new training location for 2024. Yeah, I can't imagine there is a more important part of that in her calculation, given that um everyone seems to think she was coached by Rick Bishop at primarily at Michigan, and now she's going to LSU, where Rick Bishop is the head coach. Um that math seems fairly simple in that regard. And the move to Cal in a in a in the quaint universe of one month ago um was also seemed to, you know, make a lot of swimming sense for the 2024 Olympics. Actually spoke to contextually, I spoke to somebody yesterday who who has legitimate aspirations to make the 2024 Olympic team that um is in the transfer portal, that uh was has three years of eligibility left, will probably graduate at the end of two years. And I said to them, like, hey, look what's happening. You don't need to pick one place for all three of these years, you know. Right. Go someplace for two years and a volunteer spot. Well, no, and then and then you know, use use that last year to get into whatever grad school you want to go to and get it paid for for a year.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, done in two easily, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And you can get all that paid for. And um, yeah, the person who I was talking to felt that would be such such a such uh a loyal and nice person that they that seemed too selfish to them.
SPEAKER_04And I was like, give them another year on the NCLA system.
SPEAKER_03That's right. I was like, you'll learn.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You'll learn. Um you gotta look out for yourself here a little bit. Yeah. So um, as far as the prognosis, Eric, you brought this up for Michigan success. It certainly doesn't seem like um the they were improving here in the last year. I think the women's team is in a better state than the men's team. Um, given the transfers out, the men's team is not looking uh like it's on an upward swing here. And that is, I mean, to a certain extent, Bottom is the victim of his own accomplishments in that very early on after starting coaching there, he won an NCAA title with the men's team, right? Um so everything he does after that to a certain extent will be compared to that high watermark of results. Um it seems like Michigan has made the calculation that that things are not in decline, but I have serious concerns um that they will be good at the end of this five-year contract, or that he will even end up coaching through the whole five-year contract, just given the way things are going. What do you think, Joel? You're making your favorite.
SPEAKER_04I I think that you're uh you always try to be the cynic, but you're just such an optimist. I like how you said the Michigan calculations that we got. Do you think they actually calculated the odds and probability of the swim team doing well this year or not doing well this year?
SPEAKER_03Well, it could have been a fear-based decision, as uh as I won't get into on the podcast, but yes, could have been a fear-based decision.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean I'm I I no, I I'm gonna I'm gonna be with you. Uh yeah, every athletic department is is doing calculations. What's in the best interest of the swim team? You're right. I agree with you 100%. Finally, I think that's exactly what happened when they did those calculations of giving the money.
SPEAKER_03So more realistically, they went, God, it's gonna be a pain in the butt to find a new swim coach. How much do it cost to not have to deal with that?
SPEAKER_04That's that's my my thought. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01And there's Josh White like standing over in the corner, like, hey, right here. Been here for a while.
SPEAKER_03Dr. Josh. Um and I guess that's to construct a bridge from this to the other news. I think, you know, I I continue, we've we've discussed it previously on this podcast, and I continue to believe it. Um, and I think it's important in the context, you know, we we scantly referenced uh Cal here in my attempt at humor. But you know, a lot of people in the rumor mill are saying, oh gosh, Cal's gonna end up combining. I don't think overall Michigan combining has been um a net positive for the results of their men's swimming program. So it's really interesting to see Georgia with Jack Bowerly retiring going from essentially almost 40 years of a combined swimming program. That Jack started as the women's swimming coach in 1979. He became also the men's swimming coach in 1983. So, you know, roughly 39 years of combined um coaching staff there to go ahead and uh split those programs. But before we get into that, Eric, what was your initial reaction to the um Jack Bowerly retirement news?
SPEAKER_01It was it was a little bit negative, I guess, because Okay.
SPEAKER_04Not so much like and the senior level.
SPEAKER_03Hey, hey, hey, listen, hey, listen, I haven't cashed that check from the old boys network yet, Eric. So watch what you're about to say.
SPEAKER_01The reason the reason why I say that is the whole glossed over of the the academic situation that he created for himself with with Kaelish.
SPEAKER_03I knew as soon as I You mean the year the the year that he was um banned from coaching in the NCAA because he committed a major NCAA violation?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that little thing. I knew I knew as soon as I waded into that cesspool that is the the comment thread uh in Swim Swam on that article, that all I would see would be all of this positivity and all the things that he'd done. And it's all over Instagram. Yes, he's had a fantastic relationship with all these people, and he's brought them through to their Olympic dreams, and it's like yeah, but you had you had this reputation, and then for some of us, it's just been really it's been silly. Other people are like, well, it's just one instant in 40 years, it's like, well, is it?
SPEAKER_04You have the speeding ticket I got, that was the only time I ever speeding ticket.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's like, well, he got caught once, right? Right? And not to say that he's a bad guy. I have no information that says he's ever done anything else other than that one year. Um but that's the reality of it. And yeah, they've had a lot of results, but recently hasn't been really, really amazing. I mean, he's had some great assistant coaches, he's been a good, he's been a great coach. He's got some great assistants that are now taking over that program. Um he's had a couple of studs coming in with you know Orlando and renting at Saints for a couple of months. And um so yeah, I was just I don't know, I kind of indifferent, I guess is the best way to put it. Like, oh, okay, good. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I'm I'm with you on the front, and I know already some of my listeners are gonna be like, oh, I can't believe you're not glowing over the great Jack Bowerly here. I mean, I think if there's a theme to this podcast, um we're generally not for the hero worship of swimming coaches. Um, and uh I think not that I'm in any danger of it happening to me, but that would be like my worst nightmare as a person for people to be going around um uh uh speaking as if as if in in the tones that you're referencing, Eric, that like especially in the context, I think, of the recent Terry news where they go, Well, we just found out that Terry McKeever bad, and of course Jack Bowerly good, right? Because I've never heard anything bad. I mean, if you ignore all the bad stuff he's done, then of course he's really a hundred percent good, right? Um, um, he's certainly somebody who got seven NCA titles. The results in a certain way speak for themselves, and the results also speak to sort of the cult um that formed around him. You know, I got to see some of it, having coached in the state of Georgia for four years, and um I do a lot of people who, you know, when he committed that NCA violation and and got the ban, they were just like, this is the most outrageously unfair thing that's ever. I mean, you would think like, you know, that Jack was just an innocent victim of the cruel, cruel um NCAA that that specifically targeted him um for this. So it uh it certainly colors how I think about it. Um, I don't know, Joel, what do you think?
SPEAKER_04Um I I I think I like again, I've just been far more distant from from the program. Obviously, when you when you work within a state, you know all about the ins and outs of a program and things like that. And so I I've always been on the outside looking in there. I've seen them at a few meets and stuff. And so I never and and this is the part like you know, kind of speaking to the first part of your comment as far as like, you know, you don't want to go glowing about a coach because you start to say all these great things that you know this coach might have done for you or said for you know helped, knowing that maybe someone else was hurt, and then all of a sudden, like, you know, what are you doing? Are you denying that their reality is is is true or or or whatever? So I I I just obviously we just want to kind of mark my words as far as what I'm saying is like I I don't I don't know him at all. What you just said, as far as that's all news to me. I've never heard any of these things. Obviously, the you heard about the MCA thing, yeah. Yeah, that part, yeah, yeah, the the the whole child thing. I was like, What do you? I still have no idea which but the um yeah, the NCAA thing, I I feel as far as like looking at the retirement, I was like, Yeah, not dude retiring. I mean, it's just one of those things where there's a lot there's a lot of retirement story going on, and this is just kind of the nature of the sport and how things work and move forward. I was more interested looking at the splitting of the program, like like you mentioned, uh, because I haven't really read much about it. Again, not working in the state, I don't know anything about you know the assistance and things like this. Just obviously with the the combining of the programs was a big trend for a while. And what happened with that a lot of times, as we saw, was it was you know part of the Title IX. You're thinking it's gonna, oh, it's gonna increase you know, hiring potential for women in the sport. And obviously, what that did is create a ceiling where you had a CEO of the position, and then you'd have an associate head coach who would work with the women's team associated coach. And so it was the head coach could become more of an administrative coach in a sense, and kind of overseeing and coaching groups and things like that, but but being less hands on than they ever had before and collecting a decent check and having two underneath them like that. And we talked on the podcast too about how every time we've seen programs are combined, it it's never like both teams. Succeed at the same rate. You know, it's like it just seems like an ebb and flow. Like women seem are great, men seem they're good. And also, though the men seemer great, women seem they're they're good. Um, it just I don't know if again that I don't have any empirical data other than just what we've seen over the years, and all three of us have talked about, I've talked to other coaches about it, it just seems like that's how it is. And then when you look at the as soon as I saw that the teams are gonna be split, so again, I'm I'm probably way off base because I don't know the assistants at all. I just my initial gut reaction. So, again, you know, we can get slammed by our seven listeners for this. My initial reaction was, I'll bet the female coach was far more qualified than the male coach then, because they're not gonna get the woman the head coaching job of a men's program and a women's program. That was that was my thought. So I'm probably like again, so I'm like, I can be way off base. I don't even know the resumes, and so that's why I'm kind of doing the Fox News thing. I'm just asking a question, and then you can backfill data if you want. But as far as like who'd been there the longest, who'd been like an associate coach or whatever they call that title the longest, who has the the more extensive resume with that program? Because it seemed like part of the deal was you know, they want you know the family legacy they always call it of you know, Georgia athlete or Georgia coach or Georgia, whatever, staying within Georgia. In in this particular case, how strong is one resume versus the other? Is it are they equal or is one better than the other? Because again, I don't know. Yeah, you were in the state four years, fill us in.
SPEAKER_03I mean, so interesting. I have some loose connections to the people that were named. And I think um, you know, if you it's actually interesting to me because if you if you one thing you said, like who's been there the longest? I actually think, and I'm not 100% on this, but I'm I feel like I'm 90% on this, that um these hires actually went in in reverse order of seniority in terms of the assistant coaches there. So Jerry Champer, I know for a fact, has been there 19 years. I think that was cited in the article. Um, he's not been named one of these two head coaches. I have no context whether he was interested or you know what what's going on there. Um, Brian Smith, I think, and Stephanie. This is the part I'm unsure about um which one of them has been there longer. I think that Brian predates Stephanie since she was uh coaching at Ohio State prior. So, you know, she was a Georgia swimmer, obviously, but she left to do some of her coaching career. I don't know how you calculate that level of seniority. She certainly um got more coaching experience than Neil Verzfeld, who would be the newest person to the staff. Um, I mean, he was an athlete as of 2009. So um I think Stephanie's coaching career predates um, you know, probably was a coach while he was an athlete um in the NCAA. And obviously Jerry Champer coached Neil, essentially, um, during his time at Georgia. So they would have crossed over in that regard. So, you know, I mean, I I say that and I I I guess I was surprised because um not that I'm I'm being uh uh reverse ageist. I don't know what that would make me if I just sort of assume that people with more experience are more qualified. You know what I mean? But but it seems like they, you know, this was very, very well orchestrated and planned. And because, you know, we got less than a day between Bowerly retiring and here's our new head coaches, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I'm not saying it's a meritocracy. Now I'm not saying the age of the.
SPEAKER_03Maybe it maybe it was. Maybe they really did think that.
SPEAKER_04But that's the thing is I'm not saying any of those. So I'm not saying it's I I honestly was asking the question, and the idea of like, you know, the person with the most seniority, I didn't mean for it to come across like obviously the person that's been there the longest is going to get the head job or anything like that. It again, it's um there's obviously a lot of factors that go into all hires. Um, and I think actually I will be the agest in in the group that if you don't want to do it, is like I I think if you took like every picture of the division one coaches like in these power conferences and made like a yearbook, you'd be like, these are all the same people. And they're like, you gotta I I you know, I'm old now, hence my age is my glass to put the readers on to see it's like, oh, okay, this guy's a little bit different than this guy, and this guy's a little bit different than this guy. But it just seems like you know, you we they went they're going, everyone's going to central casting and picking the same dude for the job, you know, and it's like, oh, you know, again, it I mean, a big part of it obviously is NCAA's marketing.
SPEAKER_03Part of it too is the AD is going to hire the person that kind of I mean, I think that's completely unfair, Joel, because Mark Bernardino has a full head of hair and Jack was completely bald.
SPEAKER_04So he's he's gone though. That's the thing is I'm saying the current yearbook, I'm not saying go back and look at like you know, the 88 one. I'm saying the current 2022 yearbook edition right now, a lot of them are gonna look alike, and I think part of it too is this is my cynicism coming through is that again, usually the AD doesn't know anything about swimming. They it's just they don't. They know basketball, they know football, they know wins and losses, and swimming's not a sport about wins losses. So you look at a resume, obviously, you look at who they've coached, you make your calls, but then also it kind of comes down to the AD having kind of a gut feeling. And I think this is what would open the door, and this would be my foxes wild hyper speculation kind of thing. It would be like it opens the door for like, I'm gonna hire the person that kind of looks the part that I think.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Eric, your thoughts? You look like you're you're kind of like a little tight there. Tell me I'm wildly wrong that there's not some sort of gender bias or kind of looking bias or age bias going on.
SPEAKER_01No, I just I I don't disagree with you that when it comes down to it, they that an AD may go based on gut and whatever that is, and that's whatever's around them or whatever experience they have, they've created their created their yeah, they've just created this idea that they have in their head as far as what they're looking for. And and they, you know, it's just the the bias thing that you just you go down a path sometimes instead of really questioning yourself, am I hiring the right people? Are my past experiences are they really were they really the best person? You're not gonna see that.
SPEAKER_04Oh and we're not saying that either of these coaches aren't immensely qualified. I mean, obviously they're immensely qualified. You're not gonna turn over the Georgia program to me, you know.
SPEAKER_03I'm I'm I mean, I'm for instance, um, on the record, you can find a blog I wrote somewhere that was like, can somebody please give Stephanie Williams Moreno a head coaching job? And I think five or six years ago. It was probably five or six years ago.
SPEAKER_04And and I had her I think that's more my point than anything else was um she's been qualified for quite a while. And I think if she were again, if if all you were doing is coaching female athletes, it'd be like that's a layup. I think a lot of times, because I've heard ADs in the past ask this, oh, the you know, the men going to listen to a female head coach, like of course they will. Of course they will. But I don't know if ADs sometimes can kind of wrap their heads around it. So even though you know it's the uh, you know, each each time zone, like we're dealing with time zones, like there it's two hours ahead. In the NCLA system, it's actually 40 years behind still, so that's why it's still hiring like that. Yeah, they're they're on a different time zone system than we are.
SPEAKER_03That's multiverse.
SPEAKER_04You liking that?
SPEAKER_03So there, so you're telling me there's an alternate universe where uh I don't know, I'm trying to think now, where where um there's like a lot of women that are coaching combined Division I programs or men, men's only teams?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what that's what I'm saying, is I wanted to talk Doctor Strange in the multiverse.
SPEAKER_03And is and is John Krasinski there? And is he claiming to be the smartest person in the world, but then immediately doing something really stupid?
SPEAKER_04Spoilers, I haven't seen this movie yet.
SPEAKER_03I think that's not a big spoiler. Everybody knows John Krasinski's in that movie.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I spoiler I mean it's like a great mood for this program.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01I think it's we talk about the split. This is good for the program. Like this is good for the men and good for the women.
SPEAKER_00I yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't think you're ever gonna lose the element of them being. I mean, obviously, there's going to be a separation, but being a combined program for so long, having those coaches a part of that same combined program, there's going to be a lot of togetherness there, which is nice because that's that is one of the detractions you see when it comes to these split programs, like Cal. It's like, do they interact or do they just share the space kind of equally, but not? Um it would just seem to me that this would be way more of a team and still doing some things together. But you know, the reality is it's nice to see that it's happening. I like the idea of combined programs. I swam for a combined program. It was a lot of fun, but there's just different needs, and being able to have a head coach dedicate themselves to one half is going to be really good for both programs. So it's just hopefully that they both have the success. They have the pieces in place. I mean, the women's team has a you know a much greater history, I think, of recent championships.
SPEAKER_03But I think that's I mean, the men's team has always been excellent, the women's team has traditionally been frickin' amazing. That's the difference. Like, yeah, the men's for many years have been a top 10 NCA program. The women have won seven NCA championships. So it's degrees of excellence, yeah. I would say.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I'm just I'm hoping to see that it makes it that this results in it being a much tighter team race at the top. And we saw Texas make a big move this last year, it's been Stanford for a while. Cal kind of pokes in there. Now Virginia is the at the top, the top team, and it does this give Georgia the opportunity to kind of get themselves back in there because it's not one head coach splitting themselves amongst 50, 60 athletes.
SPEAKER_03It's yeah, and I'm and I and I feel pretty confident. Uh, I heard from a number of sources that Jack was um had scaled back a lot in terms of how much he was traveling and how much he was present at practice. So, you know, I think certainly there's no reason why um you couldn't still be successful in that, but you saw some decline in the results. So the transition comes at a good time in terms of if if they can get people on each side who are just sort of fully invested in in what they're doing and they don't have to work around some of that stuff. I think it'll be good for them.
SPEAKER_04Don't you do you know the rules for the NCAA as far as like um I thought they end up with kind of losing a coach in this deal, though, don't you? As far as you've got head female, head male, and then they have their assistant, and then they kind of have a volunteer underneath them, versus the current structure with the CEO kind of thing, and you have the associate head coaches and the assistant coaches. So basically like five coaches, and now you go to four. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03So they so so yeah, so between the two programs, they could have five full-time coaches, right? They could each have a head coach and assistant coach, and then they could have a diving coach between the two um programs.
SPEAKER_04But no, I mean, as far as like I thought just if you look at like a lot of these rosters kind of things, if you have like a Jack Bowerley type, then you have him as head coach, then you have underneath the associate is another assistant, or is it just one assistant?
SPEAKER_03So it's always gonna be four coaches that are around, or is it gonna be No, he he could have five in a combined program, he could five more, so it could be six in total, six in total, and then now without now they can have five total coaches, between lose a coach.
SPEAKER_04The interesting part about this again is like it just seemed like the system, in a sense, was it was weighted towards combining because you get more coaches and the head coach gets to make a larger pay, you know, gets a larger payday because of the combined programs. But like we said, as far as the competitive balance, it seems to be it seems like it'd probably be better to have two split programs. So it's just interesting that the system is kind of in a sense pushing for one thing, but as as like Eric was talking, like there's a lot of merit for having two separate programs.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm saying, yeah, no, no. I mean, uh certainly, you know, you would think um having more staffing is better. Um and uh I don't know how that's going to shake out for them. They could technically, I don't know what's gonna happen with Brian and Jerry Champer, you know, they could essentially be shed jack and then have the keep all the rest of their coaching staff at this point, um, you know, with just assigning one of those coaches to men's swimming and another one to women swimming. Um and but I think if that was the the full plan, then that would have been announced somehow in this. Um so that indicates to me maybe they are actually beyond these two head coaches, uh, gonna there's still there's still some changes that could happen um with what they're doing down there at uh at Georgia. And um yeah, like I I think um yeah, still despite that, I'm still a fan of um uh split programs. I like split programs also because it indicates that you have both men's and women's swimming still. You can't call it a split if you just have one. Um so I because I I do think that there are positives to having a both genders of swim programs, you know, at the same school, obviously. Um, just in terms of creating a larger peer group, you can get a lot of benefits of a combined program that you might think of, even with with um a split stuff. And you know, like us D3 peasants, Joel, it's like a completely foreign concept to us because we're just used to like one person that's barely getting paid any money, and then another person who literally doesn't get paid money, and that's what we have to coach combined teams.
SPEAKER_04So I was asked once like what I would look for in a in a an assistant coach when I was coaching, it's like heartbeat, heartbeat's good. Um, ability to just even stand, stand would be good. Sit whatever, just somehow be present, actually. Yeah, so you're right.
SPEAKER_03Physical, physical, that's right.
SPEAKER_04Even heartbeat is just the main thing, and it'll work around it, yeah. Yeah, but it's interesting though, with the SEC, usually, like especially with Florida making the big move to combine, and then Georgia going, you know, kind of like the little zigzag kind of a thing. It'll be interesting to see, in a sense, obviously, part of it is the personalities of the coaches and and how they delegate and how they do things. Well, it'd be interesting just to see. Um uh, especially like you said, uh Georgia's always been really, really so good on the men's side, and women are obviously dominant. It's like it'd be amazing if all of a sudden they both, you know, again, do you it'd be interesting again, just kind of push our theory because that's all I want is I just want us to be proved right that having separate programs actually is beneficial to both programs.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. Yeah, and we'll see what happens uh with Cal as well. Any uh any parting thoughts, Eric?
SPEAKER_04Oh good they don't call him the best color commentator in the business for nothing.
SPEAKER_03You want to give some spoilers? Given your shirt, you want to give some spoilers for Jaws? Like there's a big shark. Is that my spoiling that? You haven't seen Jaws yet, Joel?
SPEAKER_04Oh man, just just stop. Just stop.
SPEAKER_03All right. Um, we haven't done bonus content in a while, so I'm just gonna wrap it up here and uh we're gonna go to the bonus part, and um, I'm gonna risk it here and uh we'll talk about whatever. But uh that's the formal end to the the normal podcast with the two topics, everybody. So um hope you enjoyed listening to Swim Brief. Thanks to everybody, and uh I hope I don't say anything in the next few minutes that I have to edit out afterwards.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Chris.
SPEAKER_04On to the bonus, yeah. So I'm thinking like in I would Jaws come out in like 76, 77. I saw at the outdoor theater with my parents when it first came out. Who does that to a child?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, how old is it?
SPEAKER_04It's insanity.
SPEAKER_03You're seven. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04It was like seven years old watching Jaws and just starting out in swim lessons. I won't even my kid won't even watch Harry Potter and he's he's eight. Right because there's a giant snake in it. This is the one. Yeah, my daughter won't watch Harry Potter either. And you're like, I'm gonna join. Oh, hey, but guess what she got to us? Swim lessons. How freaking I don't know, parenting, dude. Parenting. Let's go.
SPEAKER_01Maybe they just they maybe just thought that you'd be fine, or maybe they didn't watch any of the previews, and they just thought it was like some National Geographic type movie.
SPEAKER_04So in between me driving around in the back of the build with no seatbelt, my dad filling the car with cool cigarette smoke, but the Budweiser, you know, as you as we're watching this movie, so he's concerned about my well-being. At which point of the movie again? I'm sorry, I forgot.
SPEAKER_01I don't think ever. I'm just saying, like maybe it was just willful ignorance. Maybe they had no idea what they were getting into when they were taking to a movie about a shark.
SPEAKER_04That that explains the 70s, willful ignorance. Well, actually, now it explains everything, yeah, for everyone.
SPEAKER_03So that's a good question, Erica. What's the most inappropriate movie you were taken to see in the theaters when you were a child? Because I know my answer is um, I just had to look up the debut date so I could verify my age. I was nine years old when my parents brought me to see Glengarry, Glenn Ross in the theaters, a movie famous for maybe the most F-bombs ever dropped in a movie.
SPEAKER_04That would toughen you again. That ABC, it's like, listen to this again, Chris. We're coming back tomorrow. I honestly don't have to ask.
SPEAKER_01I don't recall ever going to movies with my Baba Dad, other than being like Disney movies. That's because maybe cool. I don't know. I'd have to see it. Maybe my dad took me to see Robocop in the theater. Um, I'm trying to really oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_04You're like nine years old still. I forgot about that. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01I was born in '81.
SPEAKER_04Jesus! That's terrifying. Yeah. I let's see, I saw with my parents. I know I saw Jaws, obviously. I saw uh Stripes, which I think speaks a lot. I saw a slap shot with them. I saw uh every movie of the 70s is wildly inappropriate. You you watch them now, you're like, oh my god, this is terrible. I watched Conan the Barbarian, that was a good one.
SPEAKER_03That's a great movie. That's just a great movie.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I really I honestly can't remember.
SPEAKER_03I'm also looking up. I saw White Men Can't Jump, and that I was eight years old for that one.
SPEAKER_04The thing is, like, I remember I think I told you guys this, like on one of the team bus rides, like, all right, let's watch like a G-rated film or something. Just kind of cleanse the palate from all the you know, and so I throw on uh Bad News Bears, watch that one again. It's horrible. I had to stop it after the the like third N-bomb that came out, and he's like, Oh my god, just you know, it starts out with Walter Math out driving around with a kid in the backseat. He's got a big tall boy at Budweiser, and he's pouring whiskey into his drinking driving, kid running around. Like, that's the open, that's the open, and it just starts going down. You're like, Oh my god, I didn't realize racism was this out there. Oh my gosh, no, don't say that's it. Movie's out. We're just gonna sit in silence and think about how bad this is. Yeah, it's funny.
SPEAKER_03I can't believe you haven't been canceled yet, Joel.
SPEAKER_04Oh, every day.
SPEAKER_03Well, we're working on it on this podcast.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you are. Yeah, you are.
SPEAKER_01Are we like are we excited about worlds at all?
SPEAKER_03I just feel like it's very anticlimactic, right?
SPEAKER_01We're in very completely different places right now when it comes to our life. It's not even really concerning about what world's with everything that you know. But we know Joel's not excited for worlds.
SPEAKER_03Joel Joel just found out right now with that comment that world championships are coming up within a few days.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, actually, it is 100% true.
SPEAKER_01There's just I don't know. It's just there's I don't I feel bad that I'm not excited for it. Not that I'm not excited, like I'm not interested in seeing how it goes.
SPEAKER_04It's just kind of like we just had the Olympic legs. Is he swimming in this world championship? Yeah, yes. I haven't heard or talked or mentioned, or he's gonna swim in it? He's gonna swim in it. Is he now swimming in it? Is he doing the four I am two fly? What's what's this mile?
SPEAKER_02No, 50 breast, 100 breast. 100 fly.
SPEAKER_04Are we is he doing masters nationals or world masters nationals?
SPEAKER_03No, no. I was I was joking with the guys in the office, though. I I saw Swim Swam publish the article on Denmark's roster for the world championships. And um uh we've sending five athletes, three of them we, yes, because I'm I'm obviously I'm a member of the team still, and um we're we're we're sending five athletes and um Uh three of them are 50 butterfly specialists.
SPEAKER_04That's that's that'd be like in baseball if you just had like a left-handed third inning curveball specialist.
SPEAKER_02That's right. That's right. Who you got in your bullpen? We got we got three left-handers.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Who don't throw hard.
SPEAKER_04And they only pitch in the third, so we'll just alternate them. That's that's amazing.
SPEAKER_01That's do you think do you think Cody Simpson gets more gets way more traction if he's American in all this? Like he made his first Australian national team in the swimming world. I'm not talking about ESPN.com. Are you kidding me? Like two years into swimming again, full time, and he just misses the world team.
SPEAKER_03And he could have gone, but then um then Kyle Chalmers ruined everything because they're having a love triangle if you read the the Australian uh gossip reacts. Because he's because Kyle Chalmers is mad that um Cody gets off gets Emma McKeon once Emma McKeon is dating him now or something. I probably got that wrong. That's why this is in the bonus content. We're not responsible for any untruths we speak in the bonus content.
SPEAKER_01He was uh he allegedly said that he wasn't planning on going to Worlds because of his shoulder, but then at Aussie trials, he swam so well that he decided that he was gonna change his mind, which kept Cody at third place, which pushes him to the Commonwealth games.
SPEAKER_03And I had to go to commies, as they call it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So he went from in a matter of two years going 51 short course yards to 51 long course beaters.
SPEAKER_04Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01And um just it's I don't know, it's such an incredible story. It's kind of like the Ed Moses thing, except he's a pop star instead of a scratch golfer.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I I have to say um he does did way better than I ever thought. I thought when he got to like you know, like 53, 54, I thought like, wow, this is really cool. Like it's never gonna amount to anything, but like it, you know, in terms of international swimming, but like wow, that's pretty impressive that and then he went 51-7. Yeah, and then um he went faster than that. I I don't think he'd be bigger in the US, though, Eric. I just think it's Australia, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess like us being able to see it.
SPEAKER_03We're not really getting all he's on the front page of tabloids in Australia. That's as big as you get.
SPEAKER_01I love how you just cut me off.
SPEAKER_03It's my podcast. I cut off right what.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Uh I thought there's an article too about Papa Veach uh doing pretty well too. That'd be interesting to see again.
SPEAKER_01Um see the best 500, 200 freestyler of all time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Come by everything. But but I I'm kind of trying to bolster Eric's argument that again, like again, like uh there's starting to be a little bit more as far as international, especially like you know, when you have like bigger names like this, relatively speaking, bigger names. Um it's just interesting to see again the development of swimming like that. And um, it's always interesting too, like a kid that's only been swimming a few years, like the background, what kind of thinking, like what are those qualities that that um he had that that that are coming around now? That's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for dropping Pabovich's name because one of our best performing video. We need that for the algorithm, Joel. Yeah, that's what I count on you for. Any other swimmers you remember the name of? You got Michael Andrew.
SPEAKER_04Link Patrick Starr then too, because you know at least my kid will tune into it. Like Patrick Starr from this one. Click.
SPEAKER_03Who's Patrick Starr?
SPEAKER_04So I heard there's this thing that you can do. You can put uh links in the description. Chris, and you actually might get more that helps with the algorithm?
SPEAKER_01Maybe it can't hurt like actually giving people reference.
SPEAKER_04There's this thing the kids are calling today links in the what can I link to the non existent.