Hello and welcome back to the swim brief. The best swimming podcast you can possibly listen to. I get to say things like that because I did a few podcasts during NCAs with Brett Hawk, uh, in which we both had to admit to each other that we never listened to each other's podcasts. But we we rely on Nate Scholl, the swim nerd. Apparently, he you know does listen to both. So he'll just communicate back and forth.
SPEAKER_01So he's the glue that keeps swimming to going. He's the guy behind the guy that is holding all of the United States swimming. I think because I mean he's on every message board, I think, isn't he?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00So Nate, go ahead and tell Brett that I'm talking smack right here in the intro. Okay. You let him know, and then and then I can hide before he responds. Um I'm joined by uh some guy named Eric, who uh Joel and I just met recently, and we decided what the heck, let's put him on the podcast because it'd be boring to see two of us. Yeah, it would be what's up, Eric?
SPEAKER_02Not much. I am back back in my apartment for all of almost three full days uh before I head back out on the road.
SPEAKER_00But you're so but White Nationals is still going, weren't you there and then you left?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was. I don't I didn't have to be there for the entire meet. Um so I was there the first essentially two and a half days of the meet, and by that point, nobody either wants to talk to me because we've had the same conversation three or four times, or you know, most of the emergencies have already been handled. So uh it wasn't it uh actually I have a a I guess a work strategy meeting. Uh our warehouse is located in the Nashville area, so we're headed out there for a few days. Um just some some move, some positive movement here in the company as far as where we're going with new product in the next two, three, four years. So uh trying to get ahead of it here while we all have an opportunity. So good stuff.
SPEAKER_00And then everybody's there's there's nine D3 or D2 jobs, so everybody's favorite candidate for every one of those jobs is also here on the podcast. Joel Rawlings.
SPEAKER_01High praise indeed. Thank you, Chris.
SPEAKER_00Joel, what about Centenary College? What do you think?
SPEAKER_01Where is that, by the way? It's a East Coast deal, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Uh, I think it might be in Kentucky.
SPEAKER_01All right, there you go. There you go. Yeah, I that's that's the one thing I've noticed about coaching is uh unfortunately you just can't move one into your backyard unless you're like, you know, Soca or something like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I actually spent yesterday looking at all those D2 and D3 openings because uh I just wanted to know where they were. So I should remember it, but I've already forgotten half of them. And some of them were in quite um uh difficult to pronounce town names that I've definitely never heard of that aren't near anything that I've ever heard of.
SPEAKER_01I think well, we're we're we're definitely cracking open all the jobs now. You got like what how many like nine division one jobs too going open at once? Yeah, and so yeah, so it's one of those deals where you're like, what's what's going on? I I always wonder with some of these schools, you you get like the uh those type of guys that are like always looking to kind of move up the food chain. Everyone, everyone looks at like Stanford as like the for the final destination to go to, or Texas, or now Cal Berkeley. So they're all like you got about 84 dudes all trying to kind of like claw their way to the top of that, and so then when one of those links breaks, then everything else kind of goes, and then you got a bunch of other places where it's like you know, people are really pretty happy to be there, and then you get to be old like us, where we're like, you know, I really don't want to keep moving around, I don't want to jump through hoops. I kind of like that kind of a job, yeah. So um, yeah, what do you what do you think is going on? Why, why so many job openings? Is this you're you're kind of a man of the uh swim swam world? What what what's going on? Why why are there like 18 all at once like this? Is it just a kind of Olympic cycle deal? Is it like um just just all of a sudden maybe maybe it's just you know how the US is like basically like, well, it's time to move that coach out of here. You know, you you make uh you know you have like a kind of a two-year contract now instead of like the usual four or five-year contract kind of thing, where it's like, well, actually, we don't even we always have month-to-month contracts in some coaches, but I mean, usually at least you get a two-year lease before AD realizes that you don't know what you're doing, right?
SPEAKER_00Well, we're gonna get to some of the specific job openings, and I do think there is some individual factors in all of them, but I I also think we're basically gonna get almost like two and a half years worth of job changes. So, um, because I just think like, for instance, no, almost nobody wanted to change coaches in the offseason in 2020 because there's so much uncertainty about being able to move around the country, and a lot of that hadn't resolved itself. Um, there's certainly some shifting last offseason period, but nothing um similar. It was also probably delayed by the fact that the Olympics got delayed another year. So we have like, you know, uh that post-Olympic year, which is sort of a big year for movement, and then you have sort of pent up pent up demand, athletic directors who've been sitting on their hands who probably wanted to do this one or two years ago, but just didn't feel good about their ability to be able to get a good candidate in to, you know, because you it's one thing to just have it out for your swim coach, but nominally you would want to have some sort of plan for replacing them. And you know, we'd love to trash ADs on this, so maybe many of them didn't have a plan or have a very foolish plan. Um we like to trash them so that we can make sure that you know you and I never work in college swimming again because you know they listen to this kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, is it I think it's your microphone that's dragging through the trash, by the way, that's making all that background noise, not mine this time. But what I I I look at this kind of like when I take my kid to the zoo and um and you and you hear the fairs, you hear the merry-ground music, you're like, okay, okay, there's a merry-ground nearby, and your kid's getting all antsy about it. It's like let's get to the merry-go-round. And then then all of a sudden the music stops, and that would be February for coaching jobs. All of a sudden the music stops. Everyone can get on a seat now, let's go. And then all of a sudden, you're like, get the ticket, get it, get on that chair, get on the and then you're like, music's starting again. It's April, May, June, and you're not on a seat, you're gonna sit until March again. And so the music started, there's no way on that merry go round. So all these coaches kind of hanging around, but it does. It's like as soon as one of the top jobs opens up, top job being like, in my wife's world, there's no such thing as a top coaching job, but in our world, there's a there's a top job. So once that seat is filled, everyone else is like, man, I want that kid's spot. And so they're all jumping on the other horses that are below that top horse. And then there's the group of us sitting there going, damn, we didn't get on that ride, did we? No. What we're gonna do? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00No, yeah, all right. So we're gonna get to some of the more high-profile ones later. We're going to take a look at at both uh NCA meets, even though Joel didn't watch any of it. Um, so we're just gonna let Joel, you know, like pretend uh to comment on something that's happened or just ask a question that that the audience would probably like us to answer, but you know, like he'll just ask it.
SPEAKER_01But but it's just swim brief, it's not an answering question that that that wasn't that wasn't in the podcast. So you guys answers, yeah, swim answers. Keep moving on to that podcast.
SPEAKER_00This is brief. I want to talk about Maggie McNeil, who will be doing her fifth year um eligibility at University of Cal Berkeley. Um, I we should discuss too the Olympic trials moving to Indianapolis, especially get Eric's thoughts as a loyal Nebraskan. Um, you know, he's he he's in an emotional, fragile place once again. Um I want to spend 30 seconds talking about ISL season being canceled, but no longer. And then, of course, as I said, we'll finish with those um top job openings. But let's get to the NCA meets first. We we last recorded midway through the women's NCA meet. So I wanted to give you guys each a chance to offer your final opinions on the women's NCA meet. Um, again, Joel, because you didn't watch, I'm gonna go to Eric first and let him uh give us a reaction.
SPEAKER_02Oh, the meet finished just about what we all expected in terms of of speed. Uh, hard to get into finals, you know, the rest of the weekend seeing uh the women break a lot of records. Uh I think when we talked about that swim swam uh poll as far as how many records, how many US open records are going to be broken between the two leads, and too many people had no idea what was going on as far as swimming is concerned. And to see that meet alone um reach the threshold of five plus uh was no surprise to any of us. I think the biggest thing that we saw was that Virginia continued to just crush in every aspect of that meet, um, off the blocks, underwater the last five yards. It just seemed like uh everything was was really pointing towards them doing what they did this weekend. Uh and anybody who had any legitimate shot at making this beat close couldn't falter. And not a lot of the teams necessarily did falter. They just didn't have as great a meet as they did, with with your couple of exceptions. You know, Tennessee went all in on SECs. Cal had a little bit of a flat meet, not a terrible meet, but just with how well that Alabama did, how well Florida did, and then obviously Virginia just um answering the call of how good are they gonna be this this past week uh was fantastic. We saw uh Kate Douglas finish out the week the way that she started, which is just in dominant fashion. Um just they and they're not losing a lot of senior points. So it just looks like this this juggernaut is gonna continue to run. And we did see the week finish out, but uh the world did not end with um with all of the protests and everything like that. Uh you know, the earth is still rotating, so uh it seems to me that things are all alright. And I haven't really been, I stopped actually following both swimming world and state of swimming after that meet because it was just so much negativity and toxicity, and uh it seemed like the meet was really secondary to just being angry. And I'm not trying to discount some people's feelings and how they necessarily what they believe or what they don't believe, but the reality is is there was so much to celebrate that week, and too many people spent too much time not celebrating some of those amazing things that happened uh for all women involved. So and then is this I'll let I'll let I'll let Joel jump in. Um I don't I'll let Chris get into the men's meet, and then I can certainly respond. But I want to see Joel wiggle his way through both these meets.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't I don't really pay attention to the much of the details. Like as soon as like a lot of my friends are weren't at the meeting, I'm like, well, you know, what I what I'd I'd like to watch is is I'll just kind of catch clips on YouTube more than anything, and and how homogenous a lot of the swimming has become. You know, like like um, like we've said with Virginia, how sharp they are on things, especially underwaters. A friend of mine that coaches, he has has a kid that swims there, and and the first thing they started kind of grilling him on was about her underwaters, you know, what it's like. And so that's you know, that that's definitely a thing since 2000 that that's like either you can do underwaters or or you can't, you know, and if you can't, you're not gonna be at that meat. Um, and if you look back even eight, 10 years ago, some of the some of the clips of NCAA swimming, how different like breaststroke especially was. Now it's like you you see everyone's a lot of the same. So I don't know if it's like a YouTube thing where it's kind of going across and everyone's becoming a little more like it, or it's just these are the truths of swimming, especially short course yard swimming of just you know, the start, the turn, the breakout. That's everything you're basically just jumping off walls either three times or one time because it it really has become the 50. And then you extend that to 100, and when it seemed like NCAA's used to be 200 extending down to 100 up to a 500 and doing a 400 IM. And so I big thing I would like to see also is just how this is gonna translate to long course meter swim. So so obviously we've had so many um US open records broken. Uh, I want to see if that number matches again for long course meters, where all of a sudden, you know, are those times converting out like you know, the traditional idea of like like what is it, eight seconds from yards to meters kind of thing. Is it gonna is it gonna show up like that? You know, because again, though those breakouts and underwaters are obviously hugely important, but they're they're gonna be a lot more important when there's more walls. And so I'm interested in kind of seeing that. So the details of it, we all knew Virginia's gonna run away with this. Uh Douglas's meat, though, is is amazing. Um, but uh yeah, yeah, I just want to see how it translates out to to international level swimming and how it translates to long course meter swimming.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I um my my my final thought, I think that's a great point, Joel. And not something I I'd thought of, and I I also would like to see because I do think that a lot of the advances there they have here are probably disproportionately beneficial to short course swimming. Um, you know, I think that uh Virginia and and Todd De Sorbo, who is maybe not my favorite coach, but I have to give him all the praise in the world for obviously the incredible success. I feel that he's taken the NC state formula and turned it up to 11 in terms of um having as a purposeful strategy swimming well during the season as a way to swim fast at the end of the year. And I do think that is sort of the revolutionary thing about all of this that has changed that if you look back at maybe the NCA champion from 10 years ago, the traditional structure was that you know, you sort of limited the amount of time times your swimmers would be close to their peak speed throughout the year. And that was how you got good results at the end of the year. And it seemed to me, just from looking at their meet results, that the strategy was we're gonna swim close to peak in every competition we do. We're not gonna have that many competitions, but when we have a competition, everybody's gonna be basically um almost end of the season ready and we'll just get a little bit faster as the year goes on. Um, and I do think it helped them in terms of people go like, oh, the the double taper. Well, like if your whole strategy from the beginning was built around just getting a little bit better, it's not it's not really a double taper in the way that you think about a double taper where you go all in for something and then you try to go all in again. Like, I think that they had a purposeful strategy that had them um, you know, doing as well as they could at the ACC meet, but because the NCA meet was later, like literally just because it was later chronologically and the way that they trained, they were gonna be faster at it. Um, and I think it was obvious that it was really, really hard for other teams to keep up with that. And I wonder how much you're gonna see change in their competition in order to try and adjust and sort of keep up with that so that you're just not blown out of the water at the end by Virginia. And I think the other thing to look for going forward is, you know, Virginia is probably gonna experience some years here where they get amazing recruiting classes and, you know, sort of start to look like a super team, how will the coaching staff there manage just the sheer um mass of ego that comes with something like that? Because I think um I think it it broke Cal when Cal was looking to become a super team. I think it broke Stanford when Stanford was looking like they were gonna be a super team. And um, if they can figure out to not have it break their team, then they're just gonna rip off, you know, like an amazing run here, I think coming up. But um, it's a big, big challenge, and that's sort of the next thing that's up for them. Um, when I look at the uh men's meet, I think uh Cal was just incredible um throughout, certainly not revolutionary in the same way. Um they got some good breaks from Texas. Um not that Texas swam poorly at all. I think actually Texas swam well, but some years uh Texas just seems to pull so much um out of uh not I want to don't want to say out of nowhere, but pull so much unexpected stuff. And they just had a little bit less unexpected stuff. And Cal was nearly flawless in the meet. If you just look swimmer to swimmer, um, how they performed, they had almost no misses. I would say, like maybe Sean Grishop in the 500 free on the first day was a missed swim for them. But to bring your um NCA contending team to the meet and have that many, um, I think it's great. And uh I think certainly you have to give credit to Durden, of course. He's the head coach. Um, and it's starting to look more and more impressive to me how often they've been in contention because you can see, especially on the women's side, how hard it is to stay. You know, like remember when it just seemed like Georgia was going to stay in the top two or top three forever. I mean, Georgia was 14th or 15th this year in the women's meet. Um, and so Durden is really working on a long period of being right there every year. I think um certainly helped to push them over that they got Dave Marsh in there at the end. I think that um you can see the effect in just having another person to manage at the meet. I I I think there's a whole podcast to be done here. Maybe I'll do it um uh when I have a slow week, uh just around how different the coaching skill of coaching at a meet is from coaching practice. You know, the fact that coaching practice, you know, you can you can be so much better by by being good at training, at designing training, at getting people to do hard training, um, teaching, and all that stuff. And I think when you get up to this high level of competition, it becomes an emotional management job. You have to manage people's nerves leading up to the meet. You have to manage people's um emotional reactions, highs and lows, as they go through a meet, because you know, it's not just if they swim poorly, if they swim really well too, you have to sort of keep them um stable and keep them from spinning so much that they're going to, you know, not have not be able to gather themselves to finish out the whole weekend just as well as they as they started it. Um, and I just think they did an excellent job of that. And um, and that's why they won.
SPEAKER_01I think I think that you really touched on something that's um uh really underlooked on a lot of this, like going back to like with Virginia, the idea of swimming fast. You know, we always thought about just kind of the muscular side of the sport, like you know, training the systems, training the muscles, um, but we kind of neglected the nervous system of being sharp and staying fast and thinking, well, we can't sustain that. But also part of that is just like the adrenal gland, you know, some of these meats become so you know, all-encompassing, fired up, like the Cal Stanford meats, they're very highly emotional meat, usually, you know, they're they're very much into beating, you know, you go to conference, especially if you're winning conference for the first time, the amount of emotions going in there. Once you kind of tap into that adrenal system and it's drained, it doesn't just all of a sudden fill back up. I mean, that's it's a lot easier to like, you know, again, get your glycogen levels going again than it is your your adrenaline levels again. And and that's part of what again with when Virginia kind of now rolls in, where their idea no longer is, hey, let's let's try to win this, like let's sustain this, let's do what we're supposed to do. When everyone kind of comes in a little more calm, I'm not saying, you know, like they just rolled out of bed, but I'm saying a little calmer than they were, you know, where you don't have that tension going on. And then what you're saying with that makes a lot of sense too, as far as like uh, you know, what Durden is doing and with Marsh, when you're when you're a practice coach versus the meat coach. Coach, the the kids in practice they don't see you half the time, no 90% of the time. You know, they like for half seconds, but at a meet, they see you a lot. And so I think a lot of times they they pick up if they look over and they see you know someone that they trust, like they've been there, they've done this. I have absolute confidence in this. Then whatever nerves they've got going on inside them is like, coach will be able to handle this. And you've got, you know, again, two guys that have been there so many times before and one so many times before. It's like, well, if he's not nervous, I'm not. You know, it's like being on a plane, all of a sudden you get that turbulence drop. You know, first thing you do is like, you know, is everyone on the plane kind of like call them, or you know, are they still serving drinks? Okay, we're cool. All right. Yeah, if they're if they're looking for seat belts and writing like quick text, I'm like, oh, I don't know about this little drop going into Vegas. Yeah, so I think that's that's a big part of it. Is again just how much adrenaline you have, especially in meats that are this long. Uh, you know, you're going out of like the SECs or the ACC meet, and then all of a sudden you're going into NCAA's. It's like it's like 16 days of all out swimming, and not just again the physiological component, but emotional component, like you just mentioned.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00All right. I think that's a good wrap on the NCAA meets.
SPEAKER_01Um, what about Eric? Eric is oh, you wanted oh, Eric wanted us to come back to him.
SPEAKER_00I forgot.
SPEAKER_01Oh man, Eric is our stats man. The stats man, yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, it was. I mean, to to all those points, and just really briefly, we talked about Virginia swimming fast year round. It's like it, yeah, gone are the days of the old two times. Like, just it makes sense to just cycle your weeks, cycle your season around your dual meets and around those opportunities to race because you're building an athlete's confidence. And CAAs doesn't happen unless they're very intentional about the way that they're training and the way that they're cycling athletes if they're not gonna go big meat December, big meat March, or just big meat, you know, big meat in March. Um just every single time that we only see what we see at the meets, you know, Todd jumping around, yelling and screaming, you know, the whole entire squad is just up and down. So you do see that, but we don't, we don't really get to see too much of the behind. Like, how are they laying this foundation in September? What are they talking about as far as building the confidence within the athletes? And then as they go into dual meets, what are the conversations like where it's you're just trying to be sharp, all these different places and positions, and they they've they've got to be, and he did allude to it in a couple of conversations where he gives there is autonomy, there is some input. He's relying on these athletes to have something to say about what's going on because you know they know themselves better than than anybody, and then giving these young adults that that opportunity is uh paying huge rewards because they just they not that they were emotionless, there certainly was a lot of emotion, but they're it just they had this aura about them that what was happening was expected. Nothing was really surprising them. Maybe goal times were achieved that they went a little faster than maybe the you know the goal timers. They were certainly happy about the way things were going, but at no point did I feel like this team was ever just surprised. Like, of course, this is how we've done all this work for it. Here it is, we're gonna do it again. Um you know, as far as the men's meat goes, you know, it is they got you know, Chase's I've I've met Chase on on the Cal uh staff, and he's a fantastic young man and doing a lot of great stuff there. And uh from what I know, family situation is good with the young he was on paternity leave, and um everything seems to be going well there. But if there's ever a person, as far as we can tell, that's going to be thrown into the mix at the last minute to try to keep things going and keep things stable, or in the case of like Carolyn Joyce, save somebody's um march to the Olympic team, it's gonna be Dave Marsh because there's just something about his aura on deck, and there's a calmness to him, and there's that experience that you talk about to where I would, yeah, I wouldn't be nervous if if he was my coach and he just comes up to you and you know, the very sage-like advice and just very chill about things, doesn't get super up or super down, and you know, Dave Durden's got full of energy, but he also has the ability to just equalize and get back to to where it needs to be. So yeah, a lot of amazing things to see on that side of the swimming aspect. The men's me. Um, I got to talk to the guy that that qualified for SMU just the other day, and just talking to him about his experience and just realizing, wow, I I made this meet, I I kind of belong here. And he talked about all the other people that he had uh always read about in psych sheets and results, and then seeing them in person. And um and then and the one thing that we kind of talked about was Leon Marchand, and he's a normal shaped human being. So anybody out there that is worried about having to be six foot seven Kieran Smith or a Mac Rebers, um he is a he is a freshman, much like Anthony Irvin was a freshman when he won 1500 free. I was at that meet when Anthony was there, and I walked past him totally unassuming looking as far as physically, but just just steel, like just seeing he said there's a much different person behind the blocks than he was, just kind of around. You could tell he knew what he was capable of, and he did not falter at all that week. And he kind of did the whole balance of Kate Douglas in the men's meet and anchoring uh anchoring a relay 40.9, all the while winning the two rest and being way up there at the four IM. He just got beat by somebody who swam the fastest four image short course history uh in Hugo Gonzalez. So it was it was really interesting to see some of those fantastic swims. Um, and I know Chris is probably not gonna like this, but I am a little concerned about Carson Foster. Um, I was nay, I was a little bit negative in the text. I was being, I wasn't being as as thorough in my my language as I should have. Um I don't think he swam poorly. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Texas had a terrible meet. Like you said, they needed to have an excellent meet. They didn't get the the points that they needed from diving to equalize just how good of a meat Cal had. Um but the reality is between trials and between this meet this last year, he's been very good at prelifts, but he's not been as sharp as he needs to be in finals. So I don't hate him. All right, Chris. I have nothing against him. He's a fantastic kid, he's arguably one of the most versatile swimmers in the world. I just hope that he has the world trials that he needs to have in order to get over this hope because USA swimming and and and he specifically doesn't need to post the number one forward IM time at a sectional meet in July. He wants to make a world's team. And I hope he can get it done here and then have a great world's meet so it sets him up for 2024 and he reaches the goals that I know he has in front of him. Um, but like I said, I just I'm I'm hopeful that we can see that stuff.
SPEAKER_01I'd like to go back and put the timestamp on the moment when Eric called Chase a young man, just so that we know, like when the YouTube algorithm hits and we all start getting our ARP cards in the mail for being elderly and our 10% off of coffee at McDonald's, it's because of that one moment. So thanks, Eric. Thanks, thanks for making you've you've entered the elderly with with Chris and myself now. You become a cross at the old man with the young man comment. Oh young man.
SPEAKER_00He's a fine, fine young man from Ohio.
SPEAKER_01Those kids with their bell bottom trousers and their Jimi Hendrix music.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I I I mostly took objection to your text because actually you lumped the Foster brothers together, and Jake Foster had an amazing meet. Carson Foster was not absolutely as good as he could have been, right? Based on what we've seen from him. I do think, too, you know, the 400 IM was a tough race. Um, I was doing those podcasts with Brett, and of course, I forgot that Brett had coached Hugo Gonzalez two colleges ago, you know, or as he put it, I was a coach of the team that Hugo swam on, um, which I think is a very good way of explaining what Hugo Gonzalez is like to have on your team. And um, you know, I was teasing him, I think, because we were making picks for events, and I I do believe he picked Hugo to win that race. Um, and I was like, he's just as likely to miss the final or show up with the wrong suit on as he did at Pac-12s. Um, and he said, You're absolutely right, but you know what? He's by far the most talented swimmer I've ever seen. Um and so it's pretty high praise because I think he's seen some fairly talented people in. Um so part of what happened to Marshand and and and Carson Foster in that race was um they ran into, you know, at a supremely talented person who actually maybe swam to their potential in one race. Um 332 now. Yeah. Um, all right. Yeah. Speaking of supremely talented people, now I'm gonna make my transition. Maggie McNeil is going to Cal. Um, she had a fifth year of eligibility, she's finished her undergrad, I think, at um Michigan. She's gonna go over to Cal and do some swimming. Um Joel, you're like me. You're a Cal Homer. What do you think? Oh, I am. I think it's great.
SPEAKER_01I I I I I like this whole athlete empowerment thing. That's the thing I'm always throwing in the text. Like, when we talk about kind of like basketball and it's because it seemed like to be the spearhead of athlete empowerment, but for them to be able to move like this, it's pretty cool. And and pick up a graduate degree, you know, at least a year into it. That's you know, again, I don't know what her actual intentions are. Maybe she just you know wants wants to swim one year for uh Coach McKeever or something like that. But but I I think it's great. I I think it's um I think it's a cool opportunity for a team to get in, uh obviously a great swimmer and just have uh just uh kind of fresh blood in there, kind of like you see with it with companies like these, like um, you know, startup companies, bringing in people from different corporations, you get a lot of different ideas in versus like the you know, you only hire from within kind of a thing. It's nice kind of bringing some people in there a little bit different, uh, you know, have a different background, different view on things, but especially talent like that. I I think it's I think it's a great move. And I I like the idea that athletes have this extra year that they can kind of do this if they like to. I think it's I think it's fantastic.
SPEAKER_00It certainly makes the transfer. I mean, I think this combined with the the the good old transfer portal, which I will never stop envisioning, you know, like one of those magical portals like um Doctor Strange makes in the Marvel movies. And so when somebody's entering the the transfer portal that you know they put the ring on and do like this, and all of a sudden there's you know, they're transported to a different university. They've entered the the the transfer portal. Um I I think it certainly adds excitement to that stuff.
SPEAKER_01Um, and you know, I you you always hear the coaches kind of like going on about how, like, well, you know, they're just gonna leave at the the second there's adversity. It's like, you know, I I think maybe the kids that really don't really care if they're on your team or not because they're not the ones really performing, are the ones that leave during adversity. I think it kind of puts a lot of coaches a little bit like on watch where you, you know, it used to be uh I know one coach in the Big Ten that was kind of they referred to him as recruiter and then the coach's name versus coach and his name because they're like it's two separate people. Like you got to keep on recruiting your own kids now and basically kind of fulfilling what you promised them in uh on the cycle. So so taking the athlete side, I think it's great. I think there's a lot of people like, oh, they're just gonna leave. As soon as it gets hard, they're leaving. Like, no, they won't. Not at all. I I think I think when all of a sudden it gets to be a point where like this is BS, I'm out of here. You know, like think back, we're gonna talk about the Utah job at some point. Remember, like a few years back, the stuff you're getting on swim strand with kids swimming with bags underwater you know on their head. Yeah, uh transfer portal, just like you said, Doctor Strange, open that little window. I'm jumping through and I don't care where I'm landed, I'm just not swimming underwater with a bag on my head again. It's all I know.
SPEAKER_00Well, so if I was a world-class swimmer and I wanted to take the easy route, I would definitely not transfer to swim with Terry McKeever. That would be one of the last things I would do.
SPEAKER_01And I'd want to know how you became a world-class swimmer to begin with, taking an easy route. You know, I think too many coaches like bag on the idea that that athletes are just going to look for an easy situation to go to. I think this is a great situation to jump to. And I I think it's uh I think it's just wonderful for the athletes in general to have have a little more transparency and a little more opportunity available to them.
SPEAKER_00Eric, you got Maggie McNeil thoughts?
SPEAKER_02I do. Um, I was actually sorry, I was actually trying to figure out what her major was um because I just find it interesting. Because if you're going to transfer from a place like Michigan and go for a grad degree, a place like Cal is, you know, at the worst, a lateral move. Um, so she's certainly uh stepping up and going that way. Um, but I think I think one of the other things too is like you said, it's it's an opportunity to swim with McKeever. Um, you know, she's certainly probably been around her. Uh there had to have been some kind of interaction on an international stage. You know, Terry's a very friendly person. Approach her, say hi, you know, just you know, that kind of normal, nice human being stuff. Um I think one of the other things, too, that maybe uh she was undeclared as far as a major goes from based on her profile on Michigan. So uh go any number of directions with an undeclared major. Uh, but I think maybe there's something else here too, is that obviously she's spent a good amount of time there at Michigan. Part of it was during COVID, which can be a bit stressful. It was stressful for everybody. So, you know, it's certainly not that she had a bad experience, it's just like it's it's time, it's time to try to do something else. And and you don't need to spend your entire career with one coach because not everybody functions like that. And I think one thing that that certainly can be good here, and I don't know how how necessarily how strict it might be on the women's side, but by transferring to Cal, she's opened this window here to be in Cal as a pro. So it's always been if you'll go to Cal, you can be in Cal pro group. If not, best of luck. So this is an opportunity to work towards that grad degree, swim for Terry Bekeever, and live in live in Berkeley, you know, and maybe it's that part. Yeah, I mean that that area certainly can line up with where she's at personally, you know, politically, you know, philosophically, whatever it is, but then it it it it gives her a chance to be like, this is the place that I want to be going into 2024. And you know, assuming the the COVID thing kind of continues to to slowly dwindle down. Um if I have a if I have a choice to swim in certain places in January and February, um Ann Arbor versus uh Berkeley is not really much of a choice or a difficult decision at that point. So um yeah, there's there's a lot there. It's certainly a positive opportunity. Yeah, like I said, if she was gonna try to take the easy route, it sure as a heck wouldn't have been under Terry McKeever's watch um for any amount of time.
SPEAKER_00So and and theoretically, yes, Eric, uh, she's gonna be going there and hopefully training up to defending her Olympic title in 2024. Um uh in other 2024 news, this past weekend, uh, it came out, it was first in the uh Indie Star, that the Olympic trials, which for the last uh let me see, four uh renditions have been in Omaha, Nebraska, and then prior to that they were in Long Beach, and then for seemingly forever, we're in Indianapolis, are now returning to Indianapolis. However, rather than downscaling to the 2000-seat um IUPUI, okay, yes, oh, we're gonna get to that, Eric. Great. Um downscaling to the IUPUI uh 2000 seat natatorium that everybody loves so much, um, including myself, uh, we will be continuing the uh you know temporary pool in a pro sports venue setup. But this time, apparently, the plan is to upgrade to Lucas Oil Stadium, um, where the Colts play in Indianapolis and have seating for 30 to 35,000 people. Um and if if they fill it, uh, which is a big task because you know, I think they've filled uh whatever the place in Omaha is now called. Last time I checked, it was the Quest Center, but I think it it's maybe had another name change since then, a new corporate sponsorship, um, you know, was a was a less than half of 35,000 in terms of total seating. Um, but if they did that, it would be the most attended swim meet ever. Um and certainly I just to sort of roll with with some of my thoughts about this. I think this is a wonderful upgrade um for Olympic trials. I have always talked on here about how I think Omaha has been a great host for Olympic trials. I think that um, you know, the setup in the pool has been excellent. Um, I think that Omaha has a nice area around the pool for people that are traveling there to explore. I think a lot of the hotel stuff that I've heard a few grumblings about has always been a little bit overblown. Um, the airport was incredibly incredibly convenient, something like three miles from from the pool. Um, but I think you get a lot of what's great about Omaha, um, and just even better with the setup in Indianapolis. You have a centrally located meet in the United States. So it's not going to take very long for anybody to get there. Um, the Indianapolis Airport is probably one of my favorite sort of mid-sized American airports, very modern, um, very efficient to get through. Um, you have a city that is used to holding large-scale conventions and large-scale events. Um, I think I read somewhere there's going to be uh something like 7,000 hotel rooms that are walking distance from this meet, um, which is just like just blows your mind, right? And if you expand to you know a 20-minute driving radius, it's something like 30,000 hotel rooms. So it's gonna be a city that can easily accommodate um a large volume of people coming in for an event like this. Um, and the the the things I'm seeing already about the setup just look outstanding. And it's got me really excited about 2024 Olympic trials, and I can see why USA Swimming was um excited to trumpet this news as well. Um, Joel, what do you think about trials in Indy?
SPEAKER_01I I I like the move also. I thought, like you said, I thought Omaha did a great job. I mean, they really brought a lot of pageantry that that did well. Um, but I I like the idea, like you said, again, central time zone where again people are maybe like one or two hours off their schedule versus if you start moving it around to the coast and you have to start to plan for that. Uh again, like just as a coach, remember just going to trials, just again, you you got enough logistical things going on in your head. And and so when everything is a little more calm like that, where you know you can get a hotel room, you know it's not gonna be that far to the pool, that all of a sudden the van breaks down, it's still you're gonna be able to get there because it's not that far of a walk or something like that. So every kind of logistical thing that would pop up, it seems like Indy's able to take care of. I thought Omaha did a nice job as well. I think one of the things that also is nice is just um it, you know, Indianapolis is trying to paint itself as kind of that amateur sports kind of capital in a sense. You know, like Budapest is obviously the capital of swimming. But uh, as far as the United States capital of amateur sports, I think it'd be like Indy. But I think anywhere that you have something like swimming, it's nice where the town would almost not that indie's gonna stop because the the meats are, but it's a little more exciting. You know it's in town. Like in in New York, you could have the Super Bowl. There, people might not even know it, you know. It's like they got enough stuff going on when there's places again. All due respect to Omaha, Indian stuff like that. When there's not much else going on, it's like it again, it gets a little more special. And also, it's not like you're fighting for hotel rooms as much. You're fighting other swim parents, but not, you know, again, all these other things are coming into town. So I think it's a great move, it's a great facility. It's got a nice history to it, obviously. Um, and I I like that aspect of the sport of swimming when you kind of bring in the history. Like I remember, you know, the first time going to trials, you see all the past Olympians come back, you know, becomes like an alumni meet, you know, in a sense where they get to come back. And then when they come back to a pool that they swam in, I think it's special for them. You know, you see the names on the wall and the banners. I think it's it's pretty it's pretty cool. But yeah, obviously, no respect, disrespect, like you said to Omaha, I thought they did a fantastic job.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you make a good point there. IUPUI uh could also be there as a, you know, I think one of the issues some people have had in Omaha too is when they can't get access to the pool at the meat location, trying to find another place to swim. And if you have IUPUI available for some of that stuff as well, that's sort of right down the road. Um, just this is sort of the options as you go. But the one thing we have to hope for as I'm thinking about all this is you have to hope as a swimming fan that the pacers continue to suck between now and then because the one thing we don't have to do. Yeah, okay, okay. I'm not gonna spoil it, Eric. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01No, that's okay, it's good. You're you're locked in on that. That's okay. There's there's no breaking that streak for a long time.
SPEAKER_02They're like they're like they're out of the playoffs right now.
SPEAKER_00So I know, but but but in two years, Eric, I don't know. Do you think they're gonna you think they might get it turned around and be working in June?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but you're looking at being in the NBA in the end of June. I mean, it's gonna take a bit of growing on their side. They are they do seem to be making some kind of splashes in free agency here or there, but they still haven't been able to sort it out.
SPEAKER_00That's gonna be like a conference finals, right?
SPEAKER_02If if they're still playing in the yeah, yeah, you're looking at being one of the you know the top four teams in the NBA if you're playing in the end of June. Um just basically an echo of everything that you both have have said. Um, you know, I I like Omaha as the host. If it was there again, you know, would I complain? No. But do I think India is is is better equipped to be able to handle this meet and where USA swimming is trying to take it? Absolutely. There's I I wouldn't want to have this meet anywhere else in the country right now when it comes to what potential lies there. Why would you want to go anywhere else? I remember being back in in the swim coaches ID exchange, and there was some knucklehead in there talking about how we need to have trials in Vegas. Like, do you want to be in Nevada in June walking around trying to make it to a swim meet? Or do you want to be in Indianapolis in June where the the average high is somewhere in the upper 70s to low 80s and the humidity isn't too bad, you know, and it gets cool in the evening and you have walkability for everything, and you don't have to worry about, you know, if you if you're worried about what your kids might be exposed to in Las Vegas, you know, after the sun goes down.
SPEAKER_01Plus with all the gambling in Vegas, obviously you'd be afraid that, you know, all the money that goes down on the 400 am of the two fly, usually, you'd be afraid that someone might throw a race for 50 bucks or something like that. Yeah, you can't have that temptation, right?
SPEAKER_02But I'm you know, I'm thinking, and then you brought up an interesting point about being able to train places. Carmel swim club's not too far that way. Fisher's high school has got an auditorium. There are so many different opportunities for people to get there. There's going to be a lot of club meets that are going to be pre-limbs finals that week before, probably in that area now that they know. So teams are going to be able to come in and bring in a squad to swim at a meet and then roll into roll into that meet. You know, there was one meet in in Lake Nebraska that was happening the week before, and it was an outdoor meet. Um, and a handful of teams would come in and then and then go up north. Now there's so many more opportunities for teams to come into a hub. So I would be, given the location, given the number of seats that are going to be available and the number of pools and meet opportunities that are there, I wouldn't be surprised if they if they were able to fill um that that venue, certainly for finals. Like I don't have I don't have any doubt in my mind that having that meet in a very large uh LSC, Indianapol Indiana swimming is huge and it is well run and it is fast. Illinois is what a two or three hour drive away. Ohio is also really close, Michigan is strong. There are so many club swimmers that are so close to that meet that they will sell out those tickets and just, you know, and then having what experience it do in terms of being a meat host and looking at what the space of a football stadium has to offer for uh athlete engagement and the ability to access bathrooms really easily and have so many different things for those athletes and the athletes coming to watch. And on-site parking is not going to be an issue. Not that it was a huge issue in Omaha, but you're still contending with a much smaller space. There is a there's a football stadium's worth of parking at that place, which also excites the Wisconsinite in me, Joel, when it comes to tailgating. This could be a swim meet where they will be tailgating before these races. And unfortunately, I if I'm there, I will probably be working and I won't be able to partake. But it is the Midwest. There will be tailgating, it will possibly be the most awesome site in swimming in the United States. I'm so excited for that.
SPEAKER_01On board with what you're saying about Indiana swimming, that place has it squared away as far as like pools, club swimming, etc. Like that. But when it comes to being part of the Midwest, I don't put it into the beer culture of Wisconsin. That place, when I get out and I and I hit the bathroom or something like that off the highway, also I'm like, Am I in the south? Why are they talking like this? What there it's it might be in the middle, it just doesn't seem like it's Midwest. But it it so yeah, I think uh yeah, yeah, again, they're squared away. They got they got 50-meter pools everywhere. I mean, geez, they got JV teams running like out of just amazing pools, and uh yeah, they they've got it going on, but I'm not I'm not gonna be tailgating in Indiana anytime soon.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, really great across my hopes. I was hoping to come along, and then Eric says he's gonna be really working.
SPEAKER_02Remember, listeners, all seven of you, when Joel earlier talked about not being bothered and being old and cross-y, like this is a this is a prime example of where Joel is in his life, yeah. Where he has the he has the opportunity to grill out a drink before he goes into a swim beat, and he's opting not to. He's just gonna lie on his couch with his metamusle and his fiber pills, and he's just gonna relax on his couch and not watch the swim beat.
SPEAKER_01No, I I've always been like that, even when I was young. I just um, you know, just text me, tell me the cool stuff you're doing, I'll I'll live vicariously, but I'm not living to vicariously through anyone hanging out in a parking lot in in uh Indianapolis. That's all I gotta say. I'll be excited about the meet, though.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it'll be great. Um, and uh the only thing I'm I worry about with Joel's initial comment is it doesn't Indiana do weird stuff with its time zone? Like are sometimes they're on central. Are they on central in June?
SPEAKER_01They they just decide they're not gonna follow that rule as well as like a lot of other rules of etiquette and engagement and things like that. But as far as swimming goes, they're they're they're they're down.
SPEAKER_00Sometimes they're on Eastern time. It depends. I just don't know what time of year. I guess it's when everybody else falls back. So the so yeah, sorry, when everybody else springs forward, it'll be in June. So they'll they'll still be on central time.
SPEAKER_02It's assuming in 2024 we have it converted because right now, right? Right now, I know it's in it's in Congress. There's one of the few things that there's bipartisan support for is getting rid of these changes in time. So yeah, um, I'm by by then it'll just be Eastern time zone or whatever it is they decide in that moment, they can carve themselves into central time zone if they want, but eastern bias, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um all right, we're gonna save. I maybe we're gonna even punt the ISL stuff to the bonus um while we when we also talk about Will Smith. So um we're let's get to these these job openings. And instead of sitting here doing um the thing where we make a bunch of completely uneducated guesses as to who might get these jobs, I actually think what would be more interesting for us to talk about is what we think about these opportunities. Like, what are the challenges, for instance, of taking over Illinois, taking over Notre Dame, taking over um Pitt and now Utah? Because I think, you know, it's one thing to just go like, well, who, you know, I think these lists are basically like, who do you know and who do you like? And then you put them on a list, you know, like you know, you're liked and known by enough people that they go, like, hey, he should be, you know, such and such a coach. When in reality, it's not necessarily about how good you are, but a lot of it is about how well you fit the situation and understand the situation. Um, and I feel like we maybe have a little bit more of insight uh in regards to those things. So let's just take them one by one and I'll I guess I'll try to do them in order, but they came out. So if we go back a couple weeks, uh Sunovitsky uh retired at Illinois. We had a lot of conversation back and forth. This was one uh due to my coastal elite um background, I really just couldn't understand Illinois at all. So I was like peppering you guys with questions um about Illinois. And now I'm kind of understanding that um certainly a lot of people in the Midwest have always seen this as an underperforming program because it has uh a lot of desirability in terms of kids in the in the Midwest wanting to go there, um, feeling that it's prestigious academically to go there. Um, that, you know, as a sink, especially as a single gender program, there's nothing really facility-wise that's holding them back. So um I'll go to you, Eric, first, as a former uh Big Ten athlete. Like, what do you think the the challenge is at Illinois?
SPEAKER_02Um the person's desire to really go after it. Um you look at the facility, they have a 50-meter tank. So you have to check that off. Uh I guess weather could be a thing, but you know, Michigan is performing pretty consistently in a more northern location. So that certainly can't be it. Illinois is not a terrible place academically. Um, you know, Indiana certainly has um has had their fair share of success. So uh it can't be because of location and it can't be because of facility. It's just gotta be a matter of uh of who's in place and and what they're willing to do. So I don't I don't know anything about the the staff. I don't know anything about the head coach. I have no problems with her or them uh as a person. But the reality is is you have far more there for your resources than some, and yet you consistently are in the bottom of the Big Ten. And I mean, I guess the only thing that could could really hold this program back from from improving is a lateral move in terms of hire. Um that really that really would be it. Somebody being a head coach, the opportunity to coach a single gender is gonna be far easier than trying to do a combined program at the Division I Big Ten level. It's just that it's a numbers game. So Joel doesn't agree.
SPEAKER_01I I I think um I think it's actually kind of harder. Um I think a lot of times, yeah. Um I think you're right as far as like, you know, as far as you know, having 18 athletes is is a lot easier to deal with than 40. Um, but I think a lot of the a lot of the people that I've seen when I was recruiting, uh, what were they they liked swimming in a combined program because a lot of them came from clubs where there was combined. And I don't know, I don't know why it is, but they would just uh they they kind of liked having a combined program where you know men and women were work together in that opportunity. And also um that's the thing is I always wonder there every like when I coached uh division three, I remember a division one coach like, man, division three, that's the way to go. Everything's so fair, you know. No one has scholarships, or you just kind of you're like, you got no idea, do you? And it's the same at Division I also, where again, I don't know what the pitfalls are of this job, uh, again, as far as budget or things like that, but I think you're absolutely right, Eric. I think it's you know, Illinois is really good swimming LC. There's a lot of kids out of Wisconsin that would go there, and I think there's a lot of kids out of Indiana who would go there, but you wonder about as far as the coach that's willing to go there. I remember like I talked to um here here's the name drop. I talked to Boomer back uh in the 90s when he was when he was working at um Stanford, and he said the thing is about Stanford is people always think about it what it is right now, and that was with Skip Kenny and things like that. He's like, he's like, to be honest, like it was just a pool, and it was the force of will of this coach to make it great. You know, he just was like determined, he's like, This is what we're gonna do. And he had an administration who's like, all right, do it, you know. And so now, again, you're gonna bring in a coach, and are you gonna beat Michigan? Uh, 90 times soon. You know, are you gonna beat Minnesota? 90 times soon. Wisconsin, they're on the climb now, too. Indiana, Ohio. It's again, you're you're kind of in the middle. And so I look at those kind of jobs, is you're gonna get a coach that's gonna try to use that job to get another job. And I think the ones that get the best results seem to be the ones that have, you know, the the die hard kind of like they came from Illinois, they wanted to do well and they're gonna stay there. But you're absolutely right. I think it's got a lot going for it with the 50 meters, it's got, you know, it's a good school, uh, it's in the Big Ten, which is a good conference. Problem is it's it's cold, you know. Like you said before, it's like you want to hang out in Michigan or you want to hang out at Cala in February. It's like it's it's another thing where you're hanging out in February and you're winning, you know. It's another thing when you're hanging out in February and you're like, dang, we're gonna get on a bus for six hours and go get our butts kicked again. Um, because that's what's gonna take for a little while. But I think it is, I think you're absolutely right, Eric. I just I think the only thing I had different was I I think it might be it, it depends on on the athlete, but I know a lot of athletes, a lot of female swimmers like the idea of competing with guys.
SPEAKER_02You look at like what we just said with Ledecki. Yeah, in terms of getting in terms of getting recruits to want to be there. I guess I was I was looking at it from a coach's standpoint. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, athletes by far, yeah. There are so many benefits for for a women's team and a men's team to be able to compete in a combined program. But yeah, I think I I agree. It's gotta be it's gotta be a homer, somebody who's gonna want to be in Illinois for the long haul. And hopefully whoever it is has the kind of energy and enthusiasm to be able to get that athletic department to go a bit more all in on that program. So maybe the head coach was trying to make you know diamond on a turds, and the the athletic department really wasn't giving them the kind of support, or maybe it was just the energy that they gave her, or whatever, whatever it is. It's just you know, it hopefully that they have the the backing from the department to go with the facility and the access to Illinois swimming, Indiana swimming, Michigan swimming, and and some of those Wisconsin recruits.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I when we when we get the uh merch link up and running and I get our t-shirt sales going, Eric, uh, I would like Eric's diamonds out of turds. That that's that's my pitch for the t-shirts that we should be selling and maybe the hats.
SPEAKER_02Uh not even coal, turds.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, making making the bright red, the yellow print, like making diamonds into turds great again. It's kind of a doesn't really flow, but uh we'll we'll we'll brainstorm later. Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00I think I think for Illinois, I think you guys have pointed this to this a little bit. Whoever takes over is, I think there's some institutional landmines waiting for them. I just can't imagine looking at this and the fact that Novitsky, again, I have nothing against her personally. I'm just speaking objectively about results. She was there for 19 years and they were never competitive. They're basically at the bottom of the Big Ten that entire time. So that tells me that there's a lot of other people who are at best apathetic about whether this swim program does well at all. And you need more than just a coach and an assistant coach behind a program for it to do really, really well, especially in a competitive Division I, you know, power conference. I do think you need more than that. Um, and so you're gonna have to rally some people within that school who have not previously been rallied to caring about whether the swim program is successful to your side. Um, I think you're gonna have to have somebody with some humility who can um weather the storm of getting to Illinois and getting out to do the work on the ground in terms of recruiting. I was talking to a friend of mine that uh coaches at a school, was you know, wanting to get out in the local area and do some more recruiting. And his head coach said, like, well, none of the coaches around here like me. So I so I don't do local recruiting. And I'm thinking, like, imagine if your swimmers had that attitude, right? Imagine if your swimmers said, I'm not gonna try very hard at practice today because I'm not that good, you know. So I'll just I'll just quit. And I think you're gonna have to have that sort of determination in recruiting because I I know from experience having been at Georgia Tech, and we um we started to try and get out and visit local Georgia coaches. Many of them were pretty cold to me the first time I visited them. They were angry that that they felt like they had been overlooked, they felt like there had been zero outreach. And that was what they told me on the first time that I saw them. And I could have gone just like, wow, these guys are assholes. And I should probably just stay, you know, and try to get kids from Latvia or Turkey or whatever, um, and just, you know, screw this. Uh, but I found that if you kept showing up and you just kept your head down and you had genuine interest in what was going on, that those things thawed over time. And I think because they've been so bad for so long, I can imagine that that they're gonna encounter a lot of that in the local area. And but by nature of that, I mean, in-state recruiting should be an advantage uh for you. And some states are better to live in than others. And I just look at the fact that they're getting beat by Rutgers, they're getting beat by Iowa, they're getting beat by Nebraska. None of those states have a in-state recruiting advantage over Illinois.
SPEAKER_01And I think one of the things you said though, as far as like, you know, I I swim in a place where, again, when you walk on campus, you knew the administration really didn't care if swimming was there or not. You you were there to balance something else out, whether it's the GPA or gender equity. But when you think about the conference though, the Big Ten, you you said something that was really made sense. It was like, you know, obviously people were apathetic if you know you can stay in the bottom forever and nothing, nothing really changed. SEC, you lose a bad, you have a bad game, you come into work on Monday and your key car is not working anymore. You got you got how did this happen? I'm already out the door, right? Um, but Big Ten, it's like I I won't be nice. I'll I'll I'll I'll say what I'm taking right here. Name like five teams that really do care about swimming in the Big Ten. And you you got Michigan, obviously, Wisconsin's doing well, Minnesota's doing well.
SPEAKER_00All right, Minnesota's not even doing that well team-wise to be Ohio State.
SPEAKER_01Ohio State, Ohio State, Indiana. You know, they they they seemed at least to care about let's just let's put the bar at care, not even like really all in, like you said, like all in, just care. Yeah, below that line, I would say not just apathetic, I would say like that they that it's like uh Milton in office space where they just haven't fixed the glitch of cutting all the other programs because I don't think they care at all, and they just don't even realize that the payroll is still those checks are still going out, yeah. You know, because I mean Iowa already tried to cancel, Rutgers did cancel Illinois, they were down to one team, Michigan State. You've seen that pool, right? There's not a lot of caring to build that pool. That looks like a bunch of swim coaches built that pool where you're just like, I don't know. It's because it's the same light bulb. They're just like, well, if it hasn't burnt out yet, let's not pay for that. Exactly. I mean, so that that that line of carrying is a lot different than the SCC line of caring or the Pac 12 line of caring.
SPEAKER_00But again, yeah, or maybe even the maybe even the ACC line.
SPEAKER_01The Patriot League line of caring. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_00Don't you dare. Don't you dare. Don't you dare drag the Patriot League into this, Joel. There's a lot of people who don't really care in the Patriot League.
SPEAKER_01I know the SUNY system cares more about swimming than the Big Ten.
SPEAKER_00That's just some Wyack jealousy there of the Sunny. It is. It is. You're right. You're right. Okay.
SPEAKER_02This D3 grumbling right now. We're starting to lose some people.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So let's get this back on top. I was like, when I would go recruiting, I'd be like, I don't even have a Starbucks. How can you not recruit here? The same thing with what you're saying is you you need administration, you need a population base, you need a facility. You have those three things, you got a chance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right. Speaking of Pitt. Seems like they fired John Hargis after six years. Um, Pitt was essentially at the bottom of the ACC. Um, very few people regard uh Boston College as a legitimate ACC program because you want to talk about some people who don't care about results. As I've brought up several times on this program, this is a a college that built a brand new pool two years ago and actually made it with less water than their previous pool. They had an eight-lane, 25-yard pool with a diving well, and they downgraded to just an eight-lane, 25-yard pool with no diving well. So here you have a school that seems to be taking active steps to kneecap their ACC swimming and diving program, and that was who Pitt was ahead of. Um Eric, what do you think somebody taking over Pitt has to reckon with?
SPEAKER_02Um I honestly, I I was actually a recruit for um Chuck way back in the day.
SPEAKER_00They were good, Eric. Weren't they good?
SPEAKER_02They were really good back then. Um so you know, to go from that down to beating a school, which, as you described, is the definition of apathy um for its swim program is a really large fall from grace. Um I really, I mean, it's kind of, I guess, in the Illinois situation where the only place to go is up. I mean, you can't really go any further down at that point. And at that point, you're getting you're getting your program cut. So if there's gonna be level one violations, that's really the only thing that's left in this program. They have the facility. Pittsburgh is an amazing city, it's certainly much different than it was, oh my god, 23 years ago when I was uh when I was a recruit there. Um and I have I've had pastorers in in recently within the last five years who are undergrads at Carnegie Mellon. So in the same city. Uh and it's it's an amazing place to be right now. So there's a lot, there's a lot going for this program, and you have you have a facility. So yeah, I guess you gotta have somebody who who wants to who wants to work really hard to crack into the topic yet in this combined program. Um they have some kind of resources, you know. I I haven't really looked into it, but as far as what their resources are exactly, but I I just I just I don't know, it just kind of surprises me that it's just another situation where a coach came in on interview day. Like you said, there's two different coach types. There's a recruiting coach, and there's a you know the the coach that you see every day, and maybe there's some of them have a third, and it's when they interviewed, you know, and he nailed the interview, and and ever since then it's been not a whole lot. So uh hopefully they can sift through that this time around, and they don't have to watch their team beat the bottom of that conference anymore.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I think to counterpoint a couple of your things, the city of Pittsburgh, I've lived in that area for a year. Underrated some of the worst weather in America. Um, it is the second rainiest city in America to Seattle. Yes, Joel, it's rainier than Portland. Um, and it's got the combination of being in the Northeast, so it gets even colder when it's rainier. Um, and so, you know, the the appeal of walking through wet puddles for the majority of the year while you're studying in class, I think that's definitely a challenge you have in recruiting. Um, especially maybe when you're walking through wet puddles up something called Cardiac Hill to get your dinner or breakfast after practice, which is something I learned about through swim swam this week. Um, so there's there are some issues there. I do agree um that especially the part of Pittsburgh that it's in uh is a really nice part of the city. It's a nice college environment. Um, they do have a 50-meter pool, it's an older pool. Okay, so maybe it doesn't have all the flash and um uh bang that you know, like the the teens want these days. Here I'm I'm making my own appeal for AARP.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh, you know, I think they have a really tough challenge in the ACC because um, as Joel just said and and and dismantled a bit of my Big Ten argument, I do think outside of Boston College and um maybe maybe a couple others, um, you've got so many schools that are um trying pretty hard to be good at swimming. So it's actually going to be very, very tough to move up in that conference. Like you see, like a school like UNC that has such great history and such great infrastructure for everything, they're really struggling, for instance, when they are down in sixth or seventh or eighth. And that's where you probably would like to get to in the short term with a pit higher. Um, and it's gonna be really hard to beat them. It it almost seems like they were they were hurt more than anything by the move to the ACC that they got caught. The swim program's been caught in, you know, their basketball team trying to be in the top conference of their football program or whatever, um, and getting that TV revenue. And, you know, the old, like Eric, I think when you were going or you were going on a recruiting trip there, they were in the old Big East. Um, that was a really good conference for them. That was really competitive. I think them in Notre Dame had some really good sort of back and forth in that time period. Um, and just the psychology of like they could have a great year, get a bunch of their kids to improve a lot better, get some great recruits for where they are as a team, and and not move up at all in that conference. So I think that's gonna be a really big challenge to whoever takes over there. You're gonna have to find a way to measure progress that not that isn't necessarily immediately moving up in the conference, um, and and find a way to get everybody to continue to sort of do the slog of of improving in that context, because it's gonna be really, really hard.
SPEAKER_01I I think part of this too is is is again the the reputation. You look at it like as a dad, the reputation's really good. It's it's a nice place, but if I'm looking at a a place to buy a house, for instance, they're not gonna be like, oh, how's that gentrifying area going? It's been eight years developing. I really want to move there. You know, you don't just all of a sudden try to try to wow a kid with, you know, this is really an up and coming town. You know, don't sleep on Pittsburgh. That that's that's your sales pitch. Don't sleep on Pittsburgh. Let's see, you can either go to Virginia or you can go to Pitt. Uh yeah, because I think again, with also the name is Pitt. I'm gonna go from Los Angeles to Pitt. You know, no one says, hey, by the way, you know what's really up and coming? Los Angeles. You know, it's great. That's why people are going to go to Los Angeles. You have to sell like up and coming to places that people just say they're not going. So I think really their their recruiting strength is out of the Northeast. But you've been swimming in the Northeast and you're the number one swimmer in that area. That means you're a really good swimmer, and now I got a chance to not be cold. I'm taking that chance, you know. And there's a lot of schools in the ACC that are ahead. Again, they it's it's coaching in college is more about marketing and being a realtor than it is about coaching, I think. You know, there I summed it up. That's the best way I can describe it. That's why you got you got a lot more to sell.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's why so many ex coaches go into real estate, obviously, and and insurance. And insurance, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You're you're used to being turned down by so many people, like, yeah, what the hell? At least now I'm making six figures getting turned down.
SPEAKER_00Um all right. Uh you I'll go to Utah next. And I think Joel's gonna have to drop out here in a minute. So drop off, yeah. Yeah. So just maybe Eric, what do you think about Utah?
SPEAKER_01I'll also let me just jump in quick and I'll get out because I've been to the pool. It's a great pool. Uh again, it's um I I think it's a nice region to be in. It's if as far as coaching lifestyle, it's a great place for coaching lifestyle. You got Mount, you got a lot of things to go going on there, but again, it's like the LSC. There isn't anything. So you so you're gonna draw out of Montana, not a strong LSC. You're gonna draw out of Colorado, not not a strong LSC. You basically have to do all of your recruiting elsewhere and convince people that come on into Utah, you know, Sundays, everything's gonna be wide open for you to play golf on, but good luck getting a good cup of coffee because we don't believe in caffeine, right? Yeah. So I I I think I just talked myself out of the ability to apply for that job. So yeah, cross crossing this off. All right. Well, good talking to you guys. Thanks.
SPEAKER_02Hey, Joe. See you. Um I don't really disagree with what Joel has to say, um, other than Colorado's a step higher than what he gives credit for. Um, there's some good swimming coming out of Colorado, but they gotta really love to ski and they gotta love snow. Uh so uh, but I again it's one of those programs that we talked about with where Pitt is in the ACC, and not to say that the Utah's athletic department is apathetic, it's just cracking into that top half of that conference is not gonna be easy. It's certainly not gonna be easy when you have to compete with um the weather of even UCLA um or or what Stanford has to offer or or Cal. Um and then there's Arizona or Arizona or Arizona State, which is those are the schools you have to beat.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02So if you want to, if you want to get into the top four, you have to try to beat Cal, Stanford, Arizona, and Arizona State. Well, Arizona is you know in flux just as much as Utah is in in terms of results, but you know, those are those other three programs are certainly there. Arizona State has really been on a push these last few years. Uh but I like, I mean, like Joel said, it's a it's a gorgeous facility. It's it's a you know certainly a beautiful place if you like it's got pretty snow. It's not like um Pittsburgh snow or Jersey snow or Wisconsin snow. It's got nice snow. Yeah, there's some nice snow. It doesn't turn instantly black and disgusting and full of full of salts right away. But uh, you know, in any event, it's it's a hard conference to be on the bottom and try to work your way up. So it's somebody who's going to have to be super resilient and patient and and get a couple of lucky breaks. It's gonna take the the person who's gonna take over that program is gonna have to come from a program where there is a lot of great things going. So it's a matter of if you're an assistant at a hot program like Virginia, you know, do you bring that name and some of that with you so you have an opportunity to get some kids to peak interest? Well, this coach was at Virginia, and Virginia was doing so many great things. Are they able to bring some of that secret sauce from Virginia out to Utah, or are they able to do that with Pitt or Illinois or wherever else um it's going to be? Um yeah, it just seems to be like a lot of these jobs that we're talking about are all stuck in kind of the same place. We got a big hill to climb, uh, and not just the one in Pittsburgh.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I mean, I think this is another wrong conference team to me. Utah would be so much better served swimming wise. I know why they're in the Pac-12, you know, for football. Um, but swimming wise, I just think Utah would be so much better served being in a mid-major conference. Yeah, like the WAC. Yeah, they would be great in the WAC, you know. Um, like UNLV is a great comp for them as a place to compete against. And I think it would be really motivating for them if they were in a conference like that where they could contend for a conference title year in, year out. I just so that's gonna be a really hard thing. I just don't see ever um Utah putting the same level of resources or even sort of the more resources you'd probably have to put in at a place like Utah to beat out Arizona, Arizona State, UCLA, Stanford, Macau. So um a really tough situation. And I can see why Joe Spawn got nine years, because you know, somebody would say, like, oh, well, you said Sunowitzki didn't move anything, and Joe Spahn basically kept Utah in the same position the whole way through. I think there was a sense, there was never a sense that he was doing poorly there, like that he actually had a number of really good years that just didn't move the needle at all in the Pac-12. Um, and um, I suspect he'll land on his feet at a mid-major program and go back to overachieving um at one of those places. But um, it's just a really, really hard thing. And I think living in Utah for certain and living in Salt Lake City um has it has a limited appeal. I mean, it is it is beautiful, um, but you know, yes, as you say, like uh the the uh the lack of good coffee shops, the you know, feeling that like it might be a firable offense to be pictured in a bar having a drink, you know, like I I think that probably does hurt things a little bit um as people look at it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I agree. And we kind of forgot about even the fact that they got to go against USC.
SPEAKER_00Oh, and USC. Yeah. I just forgot about all those uh uh schools. Okay. Um Notre Dame, you know, I think probably is the most appealing of these job openings, especially now that the news that you just flashed up on the screen. People who are listening still have no idea um the breaking news that we're we're we got while this was happening. Um, but we'll get to that in just a second. Um, Notre Dame, I think, you know, has a little bit more history of competitive success, sorry, since moving over to the ACC. They've definitely had some people at the high end, uh especially on the men's side of that conference. Um and even some relatively recent high-level women's success. So um there have been some really good things happening there. Not necessarily the last couple of years have been a little rough. Um, and I think they're gonna look to stabilize the ship. Um, immensely appealing um academically. Uh lots of people want to go there. We we've got a girl on our club team who's was a freshman this year and dealing with um all the challenges of of being at Notre Dame in in this particular year. But um, I would expect that out of all of these, um, that Notre Dame is probably going to get the first pick of anybody who might try to apply to all of them because it just has the most going for it of any of these places.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, it's there is there is a bit a bit of a name. It's interesting to see how the name itself plays on the swimming world versus the football world, you know, because there is so much of that story tradition and the history in the school that itself. So some of those things obviously are are selling points. Taking a kid to a uh a game there is really in a lot of ways second to none. Uh, but it's gonna take, and again, in a situation like this, it's gonna take the right coach with the right energy and that that desire to be Notre Dame blue and gold, and just you know, capitalize on that. They're in such a good location. We talked earlier about being able to pull fans for trials in terms of being able to pull talent from the Midwest. I mean, it it's like I said, with academics has always been important, always will be important, and even more so in swimming when so many kids, it's like, what have you got to offer me? I know I'm not gonna be a pro, you know, and act uh a degree from Notre Dame and being a part of that inner circle once you graduate is got a lot going for it. So uh being able to pull from Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, a lot of those, Ohio, a lot of those kinds of kids, it's it's you just gotta be able to have what it takes to be able to bring them in. So you gotta be able to recruit the fast kids who are going in for the kind of majors that are great at Notre Dame and hopefully uh you have the kind of right pitch and the and the right background in coaching to be able to take that program forward. Like it's just where you're coming from as a as a coaching candidate to be able to take all the things that Notre Dame has going for it and actually capitalize it. Um it's gonna be it's gonna be a little uh it's gonna be an easier route for a place like Notre Dame versus an Illinois or a Utah. Um you know, if there's some of those things that are already built in, and it's a fantastic situation, but still equally um there's gonna be a lot of effort there to take what they've got and get it to that really next level, next, next level in terms of cracking into more or scoring and CAAs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. This one I'll break my own rules and I'm gonna make a guess. I think it'll end up being Rich Murphy of uh Tennessee. And so yeah, as I base that on him being an alum, Tennessee having some momentum from this year. And I think you know, Rich had a rough go of it in his first college head coaching uh position that was at University of Houston. And uh he's ready, I think, to get back on the horse and give it another shot. Um, and that could be, you know, a just a forever job for him. Um, he's a wonderful swim coach, and uh I'd be really excited for him if he gets it in the same way I was excited for for Ryan Wacamurka to make that comeback to Auburn last offseason. So I'm gonna live, I I'm I I have one like lock prediction per year, I think, in the college ranks where I feel really confident that something's gonna happen. And um I the only way I could not see that happening is if somehow Rich is just not interested. But um, I think if he's interested, it's a slam dunk for them. And uh and uh that's what's gonna end up happening. All right, you want to do the Lee Maurer news um on the bonus part here?
SPEAKER_02Or uh yeah, let's go, let's let's do that on the bonus footage along with the other things that we're gonna talk about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you got you guys got to listen for the uh breaking news, which you probably already will have read by the time I get this podcast up. So um listen for the bonus and uh see what's going on.