Hello and welcome to the swim brief. Guys, we've got uh an amazing show for you today. I promise this is gonna be the best one we've ever done. I'm gonna go come right out, right out of the gate. That's the promise I'm making to you. Okay. Um, I am joined, as I am every week, by Dr. Joel Rawlings, doctor. Pretty far from Doctor, but go ahead. You're Doctor of my heart.
SPEAKER_03You're he's closer to Dr. McGillicuddy's than he is any kind of medical.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that would be true.
SPEAKER_00That I believe. You you are the peppermint schnapps of my life, okay, Joel?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's awesome. I appreciate that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um he did not die from COVID. He's good. Nope. He's uh he's grown a healthy beard. Yeah, he's got to.
SPEAKER_01He still has it's freezing down there.
SPEAKER_03I am, I got my hat on. I had to I actually had to turn my heat on, but not too high because that stuff is expensive.
SPEAKER_00Right. And you don't want to break the power grid by jacking up that heat.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't want to be that guy. Uh-oh. So no, I got really lucky. I got Rona Light. Um, so I'm my way to full recovery here. Um interesting weeks nonetheless.
SPEAKER_00But but Eric, you were vaccinated, and we were all promised that we were yeah, we were probably all promised if you vaccinated, you would never get COVID.
SPEAKER_01So how do you think the nice thing is that there's a news outlet, I think it's like uh oh yeah, the ISL. On their New York website, you have all the information you need just.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The New York Breakers. Yeah, that's where I get all my vaccination news.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's just I gotta start doing that. I was just under the impression that the reason why I got these shots is so I wouldn't be on a ventilator and I could be on this invigorating podcast.
SPEAKER_00That's right. That's right. You need you were you were thinking about going to the hospital, you know, but then you realized you don't trust the medical system and you want to be here to record more episodes of the swing brief. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I would not get monocolonal antibodies after such an experience either. Because science.
SPEAKER_00Science. Guys, in case you're not uh following, we got some stuff to talk about. Um, we're gonna talk about Simone Manual popping up in Tennessee. We're all gonna give our completely uneducated opinions on that, because we like to do that. Um, then speaking of uneducated opinions, we're gonna talk about the New York Breakers Twitter account. I'm gonna take the temperature. I know where I stand, but I need to take the temperature on Eric's uh Michael Andrew fandom after another tough week in uh in that regard. And then uh we're gonna talk about the NCAA, or I'm sorry, USA swimming's um new, and I I have to laugh as I say it, new inclusion policy. Yeah, yeah. I told that to my wife too before we started recruiting. She's like, it doesn't sound like an inclusion policy. I was like, yeah, it's sort of like how they changed from athlete protection to safe sport. You know what I mean? It's like athlete protection it implied too heavily that athletes needed protecting from something. So we gotta dismiss that notion. Um, so definitely don't want to name it an exclusion policy. We this is an inclusion policy. Um, that's sort of uh political doublespeak here. Um, and then uh, you know, who knows? Who knows what else will come up in the course of this? So we're gonna start with the appetizer, and that is Simone Manual. This broke like right after we recorded the podcast. She was, you know, flexing in the Tennessee gym in an Instagram photo. Many hundreds of people were uh sent aflutter by this news. Um, Eric, what do you think? Simone Manual, Tennessee.
SPEAKER_03I think it's a great move. I think uh whether it's permanent or temporary, uh, it's certainly an excellent opportunity for her to train there. I mean, she has another pro out there in Erica Brown. Um her one real would-be training partner. And Katie Ledecki has moved to Florida to seemingly focus um her efforts on the 8 and 15, just based on uh on what we're seeing and hearing, and what there's been a lot of success for out there in Florida. Um and and and I alluded to in other conversations was that they've had this influx of new freshmen, which means not only is your team your teammate and training partner who is in the mid-20s and understands your life gone, but now all of these new younger kids are in. So your whole entire world kind of shifts around you, and it just seems like uh it it's it's a much better situation to for her to be out in in Knoxville with Erica Brown with a coach that is you know prone to trying and doing things different and thinking about things differently, and and being in a in a part of country where maybe there's a little bit more ease and freedom to move about. Um if that's something that's important to her. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Is that freedom with all caps in it? When you say freedom to move out, I mean yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But not to yell it or freedom.
SPEAKER_00No, you have to yell it and then you release an eagle into the wild as you're yelling it. That's what you do in Tennessee. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03As you play Leonard Scared. Um so no, yeah. I mean, long story short, I'm happy for her. I'm hoping this is the change that she needs to get back thing onto things that she she needs to be in order to be successful in 2024. I'm just trying to ignore sometimes there's this in my world, everybody, Joel is on the bottom of my screen, and sometimes there's mindless dribble that pours out of his face in the midst of a thought. But sometimes you just have to ignore it to move on if you do it for fans.
SPEAKER_01I understand.
SPEAKER_00I think it's a great move. I'm gonna follow it up. I think um two we're two for two positivity here. Um, I feel like look, if you're in Simone's position, which to me is she had a hard year last year. She um, by her own admission, was feeling really burned out, um, overtrained, all that jazz. Okay. In my world, there's really three places you can go if you're at her level of swimming, and that is the situation you're in. Um, one of them is cal. I think Terry McKeever knocks it out of the park in situations like that on a yearly basis. But I can understand that if you're in Palo Alto, you it's like too much. You don't go to Cal. Yeah, you don't go to Cal. So that sort of option's out. Okay. My second option would be to go train with Dave Salo, you know, let him pull out every single trick he's got in the bag um to sort of keep swimming fresh and interesting for you and get the get the training to some sort of level where you know you you aren't you're happy again swimming. And my third option would be Tennessee. I think it's um again, as Eric points, uh a place where in a similar way to Salo. Maybe the the content of the training is not that similar, but there's there's a freshness to what's happening that I think when you're in that position that Simone is in can sustain you, perhaps, perhaps sustain you through just the two and a half years she's got to sustain to get through in another Olympic cycle and still be you know competing at a really high level. So um, in that context, I think uh it's a really good move. How about you, Joel?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I I agree with both of you guys. I think this is a great place to go. And when we always say like burnout and overtraining, it kind of falls into this you know giant globule that the coach is like, well, then you know, but no one actually knows what that is. You know, is it is it a hundred percent physiological, is it mental? What did she need to get away from and what does she need to break from? And having a new new scenery, uh, new training dynamics, new training partners, it you know, it might might breathe some life into it. And boy, there ain't there ain't no money like SEC money. So they they have nice facilities, they got nice everything. Uh I think I think it's a great place. And like you, like Eric was saying, uh, training Erica Brown. Uh again, it's it's it seems like a nice place to go. And if you're gonna try something new, uh I again it it seems like you know, the the ceiling seems pretty high there, and the floor is isn't that far down. So, I mean it's I I I think it's just a lot of positives for being there. Plus, it's this could be it's a college town, it's pretty cheap to live.
SPEAKER_03What the hell? This could be really great for Erica Brown and USA swimming's four by one on our free relay. Sure, right? If this is this has potential to have a huge effect on on the totality of his team, and then so I just thought of that now. It's like wow, this could be yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think Matt Kredit does a great job with with what he's doing, especially like that on the women's side. They they do really well good work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's a nice environment, all that good stuff. Um, all right, shifting gears to a less of a feel-good topic. We have um well, sorry. So let me back up as Eric uh uh rubs his fingers together. Let me back up and sort of give credit um because we're often a uh uh we're often critical of swim swam. Um, I want to give credit to Braden Keith of Swim Swam for uh essentially putting Tina Andrew on blast um with an article he wrote on Swim Swam pointing out um that Tina Andrew was using the New York Breakers Twitter account to, I don't even want to say, you know what I term I don't like? COVID-19 misinformation. That's like one of the it's it's lies. She's lying to people, she's got a big platform, and she's lying to people about something that could cost them their lives. That's that's what she's doing.
SPEAKER_01Um you got the George Costano effects, so where it's like it's only a lie if you believe it's a lie, you know, it's like as long as you don't believe it's a lie, it's not a lie. Right. You know, you can you can lie detector her. I'm sure she believes everything she's saying.
SPEAKER_00Right. And I did, after reading the article from um um Braden, I did get and actually look at the Twitter account, and it's full-blown uh Robert Kennedy Jr., you know, vaccine mandates are like the Holocaust level of um rhetoric. So uh it does feel like it is it is an escalation from we talked about Michael Andrews' um positions on this podcast. I did my own podcast on it uh where I talked about it. And I did feel like some of those were on the level of like, I guess everybody probably knows somebody in their life who uh has notions like Michael Andrew, and you go, like, oh, he's a good person, just doesn't really know, you know, the truth or what's going on. Uh Tina Andrew is just apparently on a whole it's I feel like she's a another tier up in the um in the crazy on this. And I have to say, not that anybody cares, but I'm I'm totally out on Michael Andrew. I when I did the two podcasts, I said like my uh Michael Andrew fandom has been have has suffered a major injury, but it could come back. I I don't think for me, I don't think it can come back from this. I don't want to hear from him. I I'm not cheering for him to succeed in swimming. Um uh for me at this point, the the most helpful, uh wonderful thing would be if him and his family just went away from our sport and we never heard from them again. Um with that said, what do you think, Joel?
SPEAKER_01Uh you know, I mean, I think the low-hanging food is obviously if you're going to laser for your uh your scientific info, you know, then you gotta look at yourself. But but again, the main main issue here is obviously using the uh the ISL in New York breakers like uh Twitter uh feed like that. So, you know, yeah, one end where everybody's like especially braves, like you know, ISL, you know, they're they're doing CPR on it, just anything, trying to beat it. And meanwhile, you they're hearing the like the hammering of coffin nails from Tina over there, just bam, we're gonna make sure that this thing is dead and gone. Right. You know, who who's gonna go swim there? Um, again, just how many sponsors are gotta be like, we don't need this? We're out. So again, I mean, I I I appreciate anyone's conviction. Uh I I the part I don't appreciate is again when you're conviction enough that you're gonna try to like use another platform like that, hijacking a platform to spread that that kind of information. Um, that's the issue, obviously. Um, you know, what what they do in in I like how they they kind of be like did the marketing term of team for family, and it I think they should also go instead of home their compounds, whatever compound that they are they're held up in, they it'd be great. Just go back there, just train, enjoy your your days in whatever wherever you are, right? And and just we don't want to hear anymore. We're we're we're done. And uh again, it's just it's uh it's unfortunate, it really is. Um, but again, it's you know, homeschool, dude. You you expected something different here? Yep. All right. I I I'm putting it on you guys, you guys for like trying to push this bandwagon up the hill for so long. Again, I appreciate the effort. Again, being a former division three coach, I I admire other people that just try to push the boulder up the hill, knowing that at any second it's gonna roll back on you. Now it's coming crashing on you two guys. Yeah, I've been flattened by it. Tell me how you're gonna go burn your jersey out in the back with the LeBron one when he left. Yeah, just go ahead, guys. Just go ahead. Keep telling how you're off the bandwagon, take your ideological approach. Go ahead. Homeschool, dude. Homeschool.
SPEAKER_00I did see somebody burn. Um you're reminding me of my college days. I did see somebody burn a jersey once, but I'm trying to remember what jersey it was. And I'm trying to remember if it was the year the Red Sox lost to the Yankees on that last minute Aaron Boone home run, or whether it was the following year when they actually won the World Series and we had a delirious celebration in one of the main.
SPEAKER_01I'm wondering if if some marketing people are gonna see this the wrong direction, they're gonna see the spike in New York Breaker t-shirt sales because people are buying them up to burn them. And they're like, hey, we're getting a lot of hits on this Twitter account. Nice job.
SPEAKER_00We gotta get in on this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, any publicity is good publicity.
SPEAKER_00Uh as usual, the the most jilted lover in our threesome is Eric Wycon. Eric, tell us what's going on with you.
SPEAKER_03It's hard. It's hard being the optimist in this group and trying to give people the benefit of the doubt and that they're actually going to be like fully functioning human beings with a bit of rational thought. And it's clear that Tina and company definitely aren't. Um I just don't see they're untouchable at this point, they're radioactive. Um, there's just not enough support for someone like her and them and USA swimming. And I'm sure there's been conversation with him about his mom's rhetoric and a lot of that happening, but I don't see a whole lot of options for them, other than, like you said, just crawl back to whatever hole that you came out of and just I guess occasionally show up for a national level meet so you can keep collecting your USA swimming national team dollars, but I guess you can go ahead and find some hardcore right-wing people to sponsor you.
SPEAKER_00I mean, they could they could switch to anti-democracy and get the my pillow guy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I as long as he's not in jail, which still is as far as we know, not in jail.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I it's just yeah, and I do agree with Braden. Pretty that entire article was really well put. It's just it's an absolute mess, whether it's the ISL, whether it's them, just any idea that you have that the league had any bit of professionalism or that family had any idea how businesses run is completely thrown out the window, and you just kind of lose faith in the entirety of it. Um I wonder how many athletes are going to pull an Eli Manning and refuse to swim for the New York Breakers. I just I just don't see it happening. Um, are they gonna be able to compromise themselves and just swim there for you know for the money that may or may not be paid to them? You know, I just don't see it. I I certainly as an athlete in good conscience be like, uh, no, I'll just go up to Toronto, thank you, and and and swim for for them up there.
SPEAKER_01I think there's there's basically there's two different issues, is kind of the idea of like what's going on with with team Michael Andrew and what's going on with team New York Breakers. And so obviously the hijacking of the of the Twitter account is probably the worst part. But I mean, I I think a lot of times we kind of lump people in for being stupid, for being crazy, whatever. And it's really it's like she put, I mean, again, she she was in the entertainment business, she knows exactly what's gonna happen here, right? And so, again, I admire the conviction, I really do. I I honestly, and that's not sarcasm at all. I admire it because she knows that this is gonna torpedo uh sponsorship agreements, this is gonna like end so many different things and close a lot of doors. And so, again, I admire the conviction. Um, the the big issue, and I'm not saying uh I'm not gonna hopping on either direction. Uh I'm just saying I admire that anyone that's convicted enough to take your whole family down like this is is that's something. Uh the big thing is again taking over the the the breakers like Twitter page again, that's that's crushing a whole nother entity that's that's got other mouths to feed, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So um that's the interesting part for me, at least.
SPEAKER_00And speaking of strong convictions, many people with strong convictions um are cheering the news that uh USA Swimming has changed its athlete inclusion policy um this past week. The headlines of which being that um USA Swimming decided that uh they wanted 36 months, so three years, three full calendar years as a cutoff for uh testosterone suppression to five um nanomoles per liter. Am I doing my uh units correct? So somebody will have to correct me on that. Well, they will. And um then um also that a a pan in in the spirit of Joel Rowling's own suggestion on this podcast, they were listening and they said we need a panel of three medical experts to determine whether or not the transitioning athlete has uh still has a competitive advantage from their pre-transition state. Um this effort, as far as I can tell, definitely got a big boost from Nancy Hogshead Makar, um, who uh I think I texted you guys a couple weeks ago, um, was organizing an effort to get parents and swimmers on the Penn team and in the surrounding area without throughout the swimming community to agitate for some sort of rule change prior to the end of the season. Um and uh she asked me to be a part of it as well. I said no, um, uh partly based or primarily based on the conviction that I share on this podcast, which was that I didn't think it was fair um to change the rules of a um of a sport within their competitive season. I think in in my mind, once you've started the year uh with a certain rule set, you have to see it through, um, no matter how unfair you think the rule set is. Um, and I think, you know, like it's we we talked about this before the podcast recorded, like it'd be sort of like uh starting the NFL playoffs and then changing the overtime rules um, you know, uh with with with the the season on the line. Nobody would consider that a fair thing to do, no matter how dumb the overtime rules were. But here's where we are. Um and um it appears. That Leah Thomas's eligibility to compete is up in the air for the rest of the season. She didn't swim in her last meet. She has her conference championships here in I think they're in like two days. Yeah, they're less than two weeks away. And then of course you have the NCAA championships, which she's qualified for at the end of the year. Eric, what's your reaction to this uh change by USA swimming and and everything else?
SPEAKER_03It's the communication of it, and maybe I'm just not necessarily paying attention to everything that USA swimming is doing. I would imagine that any kind of communication about changes in policies or movement in a policy would have been communicated on our larger news sites for swimming, as far as swimming is concerned with swim swam or USA swimming, or I mean swimming world magazine and state of swimming and and things like that. And but you know, to finally see it, like are you gonna say something that was coming out? I just I'm kind of blown away that it's just all of a sudden it's like six-page policy, here it is. We just ratified it February 1st. Take it. Um it's it's good that they're finally taking the position from a standpoint, and it is all on the surface, seems to be based in rational thought and science. I don't know enough about science, I don't know enough about some of these things to really necessarily speak to it. Um I know the the requirement, the threshold is half of what I think the IOC has for competition. So they're they're setting a standard that's even tighter, which if they're gonna continue to hold that, you have to make the US Olympic team on half of what the IOC uh makes at this point, or if they're because right now they're not deferring to FINA under under any reason. So they've either had a conversation with FINA, FINA has told them they are going this direction. So they've put they've had policy kind of a draft written, and now they've just put in the language. The one thing that sticks out to me that wasn't in the detail of of that policy is I read it was so it's 36 months, it's consecutive 36 months, which means the minimum that athlete would have to be under that threshold is at least three years. So um so if there's a blip in the middle of that, something happens, does that three-year window start over? If it if it's that important, that was just something that I kind of thought of. The other thing that I noticed that wasn't in there, aside from the fact that you have to test three times a year, there was no frequency in testing. So I don't know the least bit about testosterone suppression or trying to break the rules. Um but it seems to be that without any kind of communication of a regular interval of actual tests through a three-year period, who's like is it just up to the panel of three to decide these tests were consistent enough across these calendar years, therefore you are not eligible? I I guess I just you know I don't know if uh oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, look, it raises a whole series of there's so many questions. There's so many questions. Who's gonna be on this panel of three experts? How are the experts gonna be chosen? What are the credentials for the experts going to be? Um, you bring up an interesting point on testing. Are the panel of experts gonna weigh in before somebody messes with their endocrinology for three years straight? I mean, like so that you don't have somebody that suppresses their testosterone for three years, gets to the end of it, and the panel goes, Well, actually, we we always thought you were gonna have an advantage from your pre-transition state.
SPEAKER_03And then what's the and then what's the relevance of having a current or athlete that was 10-year experience athlete or stuff like that? What's the relevance of the athlete on this panel? Because they have to have that person and they have to have that piece of the population to be a part of it. It's like what's I don't see I don't see the point of an athlete making a scientific decision.
SPEAKER_00But this is why this is why I don't think you should change the rules in the middle of the season because they don't seem to be ready to implement this on any usable um format in the middle of the season. But yet it will probably I I know there's some gray area that you we tried to decipher before we were recording this on whether or not it would actually be used um by the NCAA this year, but but if it is, you know, like is there really a format for fairly adjudicating all of this? So you've just like in in the effort to make things more fair, you've like opened up a whole new world of unfairness, in my opinion. Uh Joel's been um sitting on the sidelines for this whole conversation.
SPEAKER_01So um and I think I didn't want to interrupt and be rude. I'm yeah, I know it's good.
SPEAKER_00That's why I'm that I saw your face. You were ready.
SPEAKER_01I I'm I'm I'm thinking I'm thinking about a lot of different things. Obviously, and and the the problem, obviously, when you get into any hot topic with that is gonna include like you know, gender issues, uh um religion, religious beliefs, whatever, whatever people kind of are bringing into this and and unloading uh in the comment sections about this. Um I I think when you when you get to that, then you just boil it down to like let's just take a rule, any rule. Like you said, we're gonna have it in place, and then we'll follow through to the end of the year at the very least. Whether it's right or wrong, you know, I'm I'm not deciding which. I'm just saying it's like you've got a rule in place, and now we're gonna change it in the middle, and you're not a hundred percent sure that you know this is definitely something worth correcting, then then you know, again, I is I just wonder, is this a reaction to one athlete, you know, or or is this actually something that's been thought out? Like Eric says, like all of a sudden we we unveil the six pages now. I was talking before the podcast even started, like we all have that one kid, like, hey, when we're gonna start working on starts, you're like, you're still on the team? I thought you quit week two. I haven't seen you all season.
SPEAKER_00Coach, can we work on starts before the big meet?
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah, and so now same thing, NCAA conference coming up. So now all of a sudden, all this stuff comes up. You're like, where was this at the start of the season? You know, again, and and I just got a lot of questions. What why from you know, 10 to 5? Why was that number selected? You know, uh, again, it's like I don't know enough about the sciences. Is there some sort of like this is what it is? And now you flip it on the other way. Let's say that you do go to five. Would a transgender athlete that's not competing have the right to go, okay, I want all the women here tested as well. I want to know the testosterone levels for the women I'm competing against. Because I don't think it's very fair that I'm you know brought down to five. And again, I don't know what five means. You know, it could mean you know, you're you're still you know hulking strong. I don't know. Uh and and I want to make sense of it. Five is is well, and I I mean, I knowing a little bit about this, five is well in excess of uh sort of what it would be typical for a female uh and and then then I'd like to know, like again, like I said, if if a transgender is like going to be at a five, a transgender athlete, not a female athlete again, I I I don't I'm afraid to even talk about this because I'm afraid I'm gonna say the wrong terminology for this. I I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, I I've got no hatred towards this. I just would want to know, it's like, would a transgender athlete be able to say, I would like to test every female here to see what their testosterone level is at? Um and again, why 36 months? Is there some sort of level? Again, it was what like from one year and 10, now we're going to have 36 months and five. Why are these changes? Again, is it a reaction or is it this is something that's actually been thought through? And if it's not something that's really been like this has been something we've been working on for years and years and years, and it finally came out, then then why now? And and with all everyone's gonna start to go, well, that's the USA swimming rule. And so we all see what will happen next is NCAA, if Lee is allowed to swim, you know, it's not so much the athletes I'd worry about, it's the parents in the stands. You know, that's that's why I've opted out of these sports in general, is the parents in the stands, and and I can't see it getting better. Um, and so there there's just a lot of questions that go with this. Why now? Why these levels? Um, again, what what are you trying to do when you're saying inclusion? And all I see is the exclusion. Where's the where's the inclusion?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, our policy. I mean, I I I'll yeah, I'll go farther than you on the 36 months. I think 36 months was purposely chosen to exclude Leah Thomas. And because it's been widely reported that she was on suppression for two years, right?
SPEAKER_01That way they can give themselves a window that's bigger than also if you think about it, it's like, okay, so now you're gonna start to go this this route. A lot of times it's like isn't this gonna start coming out again when someone is 18 or older? So now it's gonna kind of almost knock you out of NCAA if you wanted to compete in college. Because now by your senior year, now you're able to compete. So you get kind of like that one year. In the meanwhile, you're kind of in the limbo. Uh uh again, um, I just have a lot of questions about this. Uh, and and you know, you're gonna get hate mail on this, but again, I just would you're getting to answer the question.
SPEAKER_00We don't have enough listeners to get hate mail, Joe.
SPEAKER_01Good point, good point.
SPEAKER_00So don't worry about it. Yeah, hate message. It's gonna be one message.
SPEAKER_01The hate message, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I only got support from the last time, actually from a a coach that has competed of women's swimming that has competed against Leah Thomas, who listened to our last podcast, who was supportive of what we had said and agreed with my sentiment that you should not change the rules in the middle of the street.
SPEAKER_01One last thing I'll throw out there. Here's a little gas lean. Too is like we're all worried again to like where this bathroom is. Where is that worry again when all these allegations of sexual misconduct for coaches were going on? Uh you know, we didn't have this uproar about the bathrooms, and there should have been, you know, that there's a lot of things out here, a lot of how like the death threats that this coach and this person are getting. Where is the outrage about that? You know, this is someone who just wants to swim. You know, I've got more of anything within the rules. Yeah. Yeah, that that that seems to be. I have a little more of an issue with those people, I guess. And maybe that's my blinders are on them because of that. It's like, you know.
SPEAKER_03I feel like there's I feel like on the USA swimming side, just thinking about this, this is entirely speculation. I feel like there are unwritten criteria that we aren't seeing that they have in their their pocket. Because I think about this three years of testosterone suppression, I feel like they have internally a threshold as to when that three years starts and when they'll actually accept an application. I think anybody, any male that is going to start this suppression after the age of 18 has no chance in hell in getting an exemption. I really don't. I know because they have already gone through a majority of that growth. It's just not gonna happen. So unless somebody starts transitioning by the time they're like 16, which is a hell of a thing on the way. Right. Yeah, even like and that that 13, 14 age group that they put in there, it's like nobody in their right mind is going to be having a human being making the decision to transition at this point. Doesn't matter how certain they are of it. And I'm not saying that it isn't necessarily that they're you know going through a phase, it doesn't mean anything like that when I talk about it. It's just it's such a it's such a huge, huge undertaking to just start testosterone suppression during a time of your life when uh there's so many things going on in your head and in your body and in your world. I just like I just don't see USA swimming showing all of their cards with this policy. And anybody who makes this this decision to transition after the age of 18 is simply not going to be able to compete at an elite level for USA swimming.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, which is which makes it an exclusion policy, not an inclusion.
SPEAKER_03Wasn't the first part kind of about um basically you you also can't demonstrate like uh a certain level uh uh Yeah, where you sit in males, where you sit in the males rankings, like if you're it just seemed like there's that's that threshold is probably the same thing where it's like 500 something short course and 300 something long course.
SPEAKER_01I I again I'm I'm you know I'm not the most optimistic guy, I guess. I from from what Chris is telling me, we'll work on this, but I'm just looking at that as well, if if criteria two doesn't get you, we're gonna get you with criteria one, you know, because because good luck, you know, like again, if you grew up in Montana, swimming's not really strong there, you know. 24-5 is is an elite level 50 freestyler on the dude's side, and so now that person's excluded. Again, I don't I don't know. I'm I'm just I'm just thinking that one was set up to make sure that we don't have to get to another.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And if we do get to the other, then we can finish this off. But but it is, I think Eric's got a great point there. Like, so at 14 years old, you're supposed to decide right then and there, you know what? I'm definitely, you know, I'm gonna go this route. And it's like, and so then at 18, 19, now you're petitioning and things. I again it's it you can call it inclusion, but it it just doesn't seem like that to any of us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, um that's uh that's all we got. Um, if the podcast keeps on going past this point, it's because we recorded some bonus content. If um if it doesn't keep going, it's because we said something so stupid on that bonus content that we decided to put it in the great trash heap of history. Um, but otherwise, thank you everybody for listening. Uh and we will speak to you again next week. Thanks, Chris. Thank you. Thanks.
SPEAKER_01All right, Eric, fill us in on Shane. What's what's the deal going down there in Austin? What's going on? I haven't read anything about that.
SPEAKER_00Give us our Shane Cassas update. Come on, man.
SPEAKER_03The Shane Cassas update. All right. So not I'm clearly neither of you watched his podcast interview with that's correct. That's why we're asking.
SPEAKER_00We don't have all that time to watch that kind of thing. Come on. Yeah, kids.
SPEAKER_03Um, it was good. Like I was, it was it was really good um in terms of the content that he provided, the context of of how things went, um, what was coming, what was going through his mind leading up to the NCAA's, what happened at NCAAs, and then how that continued into trials, um, as far as his mindset and and being complacent in in certain respects. I think the mention of complacent and just the the vague nature of it really covered the whole public intoxication thing, which did it really though. I can't tell, I can't tell if I'm frustrated or not surprised that Ha just didn't touch that one with the 10-foot pole because that doesn't really necessarily fit his happy-go-lucky style of content. Versus, you could certainly tell that Brett Hawk would have been like, What the hell are you doing two months out from trials? That's my horrible Brett Hawk impersonation. As he points with that big gun, you know, at the screen. Um he was very open about that.
SPEAKER_01When I was swimming, I remember I did like ships.
SPEAKER_03We would scald beers right before racism.
SPEAKER_01Um not on your train, it's yeah, wrong direction. So back to Shane.
SPEAKER_03And him take yeah, him taking a break, him realized just wanting a change. The thing it was like, he was like just enamored with with being able to swim for Eddie. And it wasn't even on his radar until he found out that Eddie was no longer going to retire. He's like, I would feel remiss and have a lot of regret if I didn't try training for the greatest coach of all time. So that according to him, that was really his motivation to move to Austin. What we saw publicly, yeah, there was he's a kid, missteps in how things went, but just in the timing of it all, the coaches taking him back, his teammates taking him back, them understanding, like there was a lot more conversation and communication behind closed doors that we are privy to. And obviously, why would there be? It's just it's internal stuff you deal with it. So they brought him back in, got super focused uh on making it to short course worlds and being relevant at short course worlds, not unlike Mr. Andrew.
SPEAKER_00Oh you mean he actually trained for the meet?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, wow, could they hardly for it for a bit, and he still wasn't happy with where he was physically or his results. Keep in mind he had really great results in, according to him, never racing or being really in a short course meter's pool in his entire life. Um so and him just talking of being very candid about the kind of person he is, the kind of things that he wants to do. Like he's not about going, he's not about ISL at all. Like he doesn't like that lifestyle. He wants to stay at home, he wants to train, and he wants to be great long course. So um it it got me back closer on on the Shane Cassas train. I know I'm a little I'm a little gun shy with this. Can we give the Andrew family, can we give them some kind of like moniker or nickname? Or is it just gonna be the cult that shall remain remain nameless? Andrew cult. Andrew Cult.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I just so the see that's you now you got to the important part, Eric, because I I feel like I'm listening to my friend, you know, he's been six months sober, and he's just he's telling you, he's like, I no, I I figured out I can just have like one or two drinks, and like it works. You know, it's fine. I feel pretty good and I don't feel bad in the morning.
SPEAKER_01And you know, like I know everybody has a problem, says they don't have a problem, but I really I don't have a problem.
SPEAKER_00I find that if it's red wine, I'm fine. Everything's fine. It's yeah, it's good, it's good for you. At that it's really, I'm doing it for my health. You know what I mean? That's what that's what I hear on the other end of this.
SPEAKER_01Um, I I think as an like you remember the the the twit, the um couple of the texts you sent out, like he says you gotta stack up things like that. You're like, again, I'm the I'm the old crotchy guy now, where I'm just like sometimes when when people use certain phrases and things like that, or or if it's the dude that has their hat on backwards and they're 50 years old, you're like there there's some sort of immature level where you're kind of like you're always gonna have in your head, like, okay, are are we ready to move forward? You know, because that's just still a kid, right? And again, not not bashing. I mean, shoot, I'm still immature too, but again, I'm not trying to, you know, telling when I'm going back to the Olympics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really, it is. But yeah, it's uh it is one of those things where where when people throw those things out there, uh you you always wonder a little bit about maturity level and in actual commitment. And I haven't heard the interview yet, just a little bit second.
SPEAKER_03It's just you can tell he's he's a kid at heart, he's still just a young guy. I mean, it was the yeah, the reference to some of the words he was saying, he was like saying some like a race that blows, whatever it is. Like the kind of stuff you hear out of a teenage mouth.
SPEAKER_01Oh, which is but also it's not the kind of words that you hear, kind of one of the things I used to always talk about parents that are coming out of the club team is that you always get that Olympic bump. Was I always mentioned like listening to the Olympians and how they are interviewing, even though they're like right after a race, they're really pretty eloquent. You know, they they they do a really nice job, and I think that kind of goes hand in hand like that. Like it may be trying to kind of look too much for for for causation correlation kind of thing. But yeah, but it just seems like people that are kind of that disciplined, that focused, are able to kind of put themselves together and understand the messages that they're gonna get through and who they're talking about.
SPEAKER_03He's not ready to be at a Dressel level or a Nathan Hree level. You're talking about who's who's polished, who's that fit and finish, and what Deki is another one or something.
SPEAKER_01But but also now it's real true, you're on your own. Yeah, you and that's the thing you just say he's not polished, not finished, but now you're on your own. I mean, for four years of college, you got or however many, yes. Yeah, uh like again, how many years of you know, your transportation's arranged, your meals are always gonna be there, the dishes are always gonna be done because you're on that scholarship, flights are arranged, rooming is arranged, hotel, everything, all those things are arranged, and that becomes the again part of the trouble of becoming a professional athlete uh in the sport of swimming is you now are gonna do all of that and figure out your tax forms. You know, good good luck on that. Yeah, so unless of course you got your team, you know, team at the compact working with you. Yeah, then you you you wonder like who's gonna help? How's that gonna get there? And I think that's probably ends up becoming Kind of the agent like an agent athletic agent kind of thing where where they're the one he doesn't have a manager. But there's not enough money. You know who's gonna pay the manager?
SPEAKER_03I think between what between his USA swimming stipend and um the 40 grand that he got from short course speeders, he's what 90,000 in the last four months, doesn't have any sponsorships. Um so there's really not a lot of money. And it's interesting that you know Coleman brought that up. It's like ISL. It's like I understand he's not a big fan of that format, but if he doesn't pick some of these meets to make money, he's not gonna make money swimming twice a year. No, it's just not gonna happen. Not he's gonna what's he gonna do? Gonna he's gonna get on Twitch and stream gaming and make money that way when he's not recovering from trading or lifting weights or swimming. That's not to say that he can't. Right, right. It's just that at this point, like you have to make your decision about how you're gonna make money because you can't survive, you can't live comfortably in Austin on 50,000 a year, even if you do a world championships every you know, every six months. It's you can't you can't be an elite level athlete and pay for the things that you need to pay for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you get beer and pizza, you're not going to Whole Foods, right? Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's just it's just not happening. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I wonder if like just how how the landscape has got to change so much right now with NIL. Like, obviously, SEC people like, hey, by the way, we've got a whole complex that we built for four and a half million dollars right behind us. It's gonna help you all with NIL. The same thing where it's like, and we'll help you with with if you want to go pro, kind of that transition, because that that two, three-year transition phase, I bet is pretty important.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, having allowing to tap into that, right?
SPEAKER_01Like like like Caleb Dressel to kind of come back and go, listen, these are the mistakes I made. This is what you need to do, you know, these are the meets you need to hit, and this is how you're gonna make some money, and this is where you need to save your money at.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, is that a position that needs to be a part of USA swimming? Is that uh is it Lindsay Batanka?
SPEAKER_00You want to add administrative bloat to USA swimming, Eric?
SPEAKER_03Maybe not another person, but maybe it's like what is that? What is that position doing for four years? Some of one of those positions gotta have downtime. I mean, I know they stripped a lot of people out of there, but you're you're you're at a point as an NGB where you need to provide that service. Is that service being provided right now? I don't know. I'm not a part of USA swimming, I don't want to be a part of USA swimming. Um, but I think that's the biggest thing is is what are they doing for their athletes? And if they are doing it, right? Let's communicate that. Is it is it coming down to the clubs like we are gonna provide this service, or is it just a matter of kicking the can down the road? Um right. I don't know what Chris had his his usual.
SPEAKER_01I I if you look at that uh yeah, Chris's Chris's bathroom break is always this time. He he's he's regular as clock. That's right.
SPEAKER_03For those of you who haven't as far into the podcast, Chris has got a deuce.
SPEAKER_01Um he's a he's a high fiber, high, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, he had to he texted us that he was leaving at two.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, two and two is code. We know two is two eastern time.
SPEAKER_03Chris has to dip out. He texted this at two minutes to two Eastern time that he had to leave. So uh we will probably won't bore you anymore if you've gotten this far. Thanks for the part two. Um, and uh tune in next time when we talk about more ridiculousness in swimming. Maybe USA swimming will come out and talk about their international trials or the 18 and undercuff that disappeared from the calendar.
SPEAKER_01All right, later.