SPEAKER_01

This week's Danish edition of the swim brief is brought to you by Chris DeSantis Coaching. Improve your coaching or your team in as little as a couple hours with positive psychology. Teams from all across the country are seeing the benefit of using a new language to talk about how to swim, study, and live better. In fact, I'm going to be out in Houston in about 10 days working with Bridge Bat Swim Club on these very topics. Don't just get somebody who's read a book. Get somebody who knows the science behind popular terms like grit, growth mindset, optimism, and more. Go to Christycoach.com, that's C-H-R-I-S D Sn Downtown Coach.com and write me via the contact form. On the brief this week, Nicholas Hilgore. And for your American listeners, Nicholas Hedegaard. Nicholas is a swimmer I've coached and who continues to swim at age 27. And we talk about his journey through swimming up to this point and what keeps him motivated to keep pushing forward in the sport. We also talk about his new venture with friend Rasmus Bafu. I'm not even going to do that one for Americans. And in Denmark, the Magic V, which makes personalized fit goggles using facial mapping. Enjoy. Hello, Nicholas. Hello, Chris. Welcome. Welcome to the the swim brief. Thanks for having me. And as I understand you're uh joining me from Austria.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I made a move uh six weeks ago, I think, from Denmark.

SPEAKER_01

All right, so let's let's back up a little bit because I think uh you know you and I have known each other well let's see. We've known each other since uh I think it was like somewhere in February to 2014 we went to uh or March three and a half years.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

We were uh we were in Marseille, uh France for a swim meet together. Um but for people who are just sort of coming on this podcast um and don't know who you are, uh give a little sort of background on your your swimming life.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so to take it from the beginning, I started swimming when I was 10 competitively. I swam before that, but that was that was not serious, right? And uh pretty quickly I discovered that that was something for me, that was something I could be good at, so I kept at it and I'm 27 now and I've been juggling, you know, school and and swimming for the past I'd say seven years at least going to university in Denmark and trying to live that life as an adult and swimming at the same time. And I absolutely love it. I I think swimming is something that everyone should experience in their 20s as well, because it can give you something more than just uh the yardage and the swimming in itself and the resource that comes from it. I mean it's it's something that builds character and it can produce a fine young man.

SPEAKER_01

At least in your case and some other cases, I think. Yeah, that's that's definitely true. Thank you, Chris. Uh uh for the people listening, I did uh I guess I could say I coached Nicholas. So um that's that's part of our our relationship. Um I wasn't his primary coach really at any given time except for a day and a half in uh in Marseille, France. Um but one one thing, a couple things about your your background, because I think a lot of people who are listening to this are American and um you know it it you don't even know or maybe you do know what you what you know about how Danish swimming is different. But like the first thing I hear is I started competitive swimming when I was ten. Um there's a lot of people in America who start, you know, like competitive swimming at age six or something. But it's a lot more normal in Denmark to hear, especially for a boy, that they started competitive swimming at nine years old, ten years old. Can you can you talk a little bit about uh that experience getting started in competitive swimming around that age and and what you think about it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, sure. Um so I think for me and for my family, it was about testing out different stuff. Like, I didn't know that I was gonna be a swimmer. I was also playing soccer and I was a Boy Scout, I was playing golf, I was doing all sorts of things, and at one point it was just sort of the swimming got it took me away. It's um it what I it was what I was best at, I I guess. Um at one point even later, I I kept playing golf for quite a while. Um so I I continued with two sports. I guess that's also really uncommon in the US. I hear most most young kids they they start training really a lot in the beginning and when they're young. So they they can't they can't play a lot of different sports. And that's also a little bit different. Um I wasn't I wasn't good at soccer. I guess that was only because a lot of my friends were playing soccer, so I had to had to fit in. Uh that was only for a short while.

SPEAKER_01

Is that a popular sport in Denmark?

SPEAKER_00

It really is. It's the biggest sport. So you try to stay popular by playing, but if you suck at it, you might as well quit. Yeah, and swimming was it just came sort of natural to me, and I I liked the way that it was something that I could do by myself. It wasn't I mean, I like the team, team events, that's that's cool as well, but the visual part really attracted me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, talk about that a little, because I think people in swimming can get get can get self-conscious about the fact that it's a more individual sport and and get defensive and start thinking like, oh well, you know, it really is a team sport, and and uh coming up with arguments for why it is a team sport, and it and it is fair to say that everything is you know sort of on a spectrum, it's not a hundred percent individual. But what if you were trying to tell somebody that swimming is an individual sport, um what would you say?

SPEAKER_00

So to me it's really simple. It's um you can rely on anyone else for your results. You can I mean part of it is is probably your family when you're young, but a lot of it comes for your own determination and um well the coaches that you have, but it's it's not something that you can rely on your team for. I mean you have the support of your team and and they help you get through the hard parts, but most of it it's it's yourself and you gotta you gotta build some character to to push through. And I think that's that's what um attracts me a lot to it.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I find that very compelling. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So when so you so you're you're a young kid, you did play golf. When at what point up to what age do were you still doing golf sort of semi-seriously and swimming?

SPEAKER_00

Uh I probably played golf around three to four times a week when I was fifteen, sixteen even. So pretty far up.

SPEAKER_01

And at that at that age, like how much were you swimming at the same time as that?

SPEAKER_00

A lot. So I'd say nine times a week, probably. Yeah, way too much. And looking back at it, it was probably not the best idea, but that was that's what you did back then, I guess. Um the same thing for my teammates and for my friends who did swimming, and it was just the culture, I guess. So that's what we did.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And people still do it in Denmark, so it's not it's not that uncommon.

SPEAKER_01

And around the world. Um and around the world. I I even I saw a coach uh recently, and I think anybody that is listening to this, unless this is literally the first time you've heard me talk, you know what my opinion is uh on the following. But I I saw a coach recently posting, you know, advocating that uh 10 or 11 was the right age uh with girls to start double practices. Yeah. And I thought, oh no. I had to I I had to confront the fact that somebody really thinks this is true.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um it's it could be too much too soon. It's uh I started training like nine, ten to ten, nine to ten times a week when I was fourteen or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so, you know, uh some people listening right would say like, wow, this sounds like a sort of uh a recipe for uh a pretty uh uh swift finish in the sport to be training so much so early, but yet here you are, you're 27 years old, you're still swimming. So um what as as you sort of moved out of your teens, and I think you you're you you you say, you know, like I I was just doing what the coach said, you know, I was doing um what the team culture was. Like so how did that how did that change as you got older?

SPEAKER_00

I mean I was at a breaking point when I had to start university. Um swimming wasn't really fun for me anymore, and the times didn't come easy anymore, like the the results, and I was I was ready to quit basically. Uh but we got a new coach in the club and I wanted to see him uh and see what he could do, so I gave him a chance, and immediately I just I fell in love with swimming again. He he changed my my view on it, and I can thank him for still swimming, definitely.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so that that's another interesting story actually that I want to dig into a little bit. No, because um I think that the way you present it, it seems like, oh yeah, yeah, there's a new coach, so I gave him a chance. But I think a lot of coaches and a lot of swimmers have experienced that change in itself is just hard. Even if it's positive change, even if it's something that might be better for you, it can be really, really hard. So how I mean as a swimmer, as you sort of go on, because you've had more coaches since then, and now you have you've had a new coach here in the last six weeks, and we can talk a little bit um more about sort of the latest round of of change you've been going through. But how do you stay open as a swimmer to all that change?

SPEAKER_00

Um that's a good question. It's a really good question. Um you have to be sort of true to yourself and your beliefs, because when you get older and you become an adult and you're still swimming, that knowledge that you build over a whole career, you take that with you. And you take it with you when you meet a new coach who tries to tell you new stuff. And you look back on what you learned and you say, okay, what he's saying right now is definitely not true. At least not in my case. And you gotta bite your tongue because some coaches they they don't like when you when you talk against them, right, and say they're wrong. So that's something you definitely have to have to think about. But also you shouldn't do stuff just to please the coach, and even if you know it's totally wrong, at least in your case, because we're all different and we need different stuff to become better, different ways of working out, different ways of nutrition, different ways of sleeping patterns. It's it all comes down to the individual. And I learned that from the new coach when I was 20. And I've been carrying that with me to all the new coaches, and as long as you present it in the right way, I think they respect you, and they some of them can also learn something from you. It's uh that's something that I like about it.

SPEAKER_01

So let me let's talk a little bit more about um and and uh I'm actually finding myself drawing a blank. Who who was the new coach when you were 20? And um and what was different about him that you know you sort of engaged in that way um your prior knowledge.

SPEAKER_00

So my new coach back when I was 20, he was called uh Thomas Jansson, and he's a Swedish guy, and he was uh in his 50s when he switched to my club. And before that, he was the national coach of Sweden for eight years. And um when he got to my team, obviously he had the he had must have had some skill sets because he was the national coach, right? But that was the only thing I knew about him. I didn't know anything. And then immediately the first thing I will never forget it, the first thing he told me uh when we had sat down and had a meeting about uh the rest of the season, he said to me, Well, I look at your schedule, and what you should be doing is skip all morning practices for the rest of the year, and let's see where that takes you. And to me, who was a swimmer since uh 21 times a week since I was 13, that was that came like quite a shock. And I didn't want to believe it at first. I was really stubborn and I was like, no, that can't be right, you're just setting me up for failure, and what is this you're talking about? I mean, it didn't make any sense to me, right? Because you had to do more to be better. That was sort of my philosophy. And well, I just I I thought, well, I was ready to quit, so why not just give this a shot and at least I get some more spare time to focus on my studies, and it's all gonna work out either way. And then half a year later, I broke all my personal vests, and it was just a fun ride from there. So there was a there was a lesson to be learned. It's not always what you think, and you you can always attack it from a new angle. And for the next season after that, we sat down and we threw all the balls in the air, and we we looked at it from a whole different perspective, and well, it's been going on since then. Yeah. I don't know if that's enough introduction.

SPEAKER_01

No, I think that's fantastic, and and and uh from my limited interaction with uh Tomas, um I I did what one thing that really stood out to him, what stood out to me about him was that he was the kind of guy who could easily have a very big ego about what he does, and instead he seemed uh very much like I don't know, he didn't carry himself with the same kind of ego that I ran into a lot with some coaches, and he seemed like he really was like genuinely trying to learn from other people, even if he was the master. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00

That is his mentor. I mean that's what his goal is to to learn from everyone. Because everyone, every coach you meet, even though they might be at a low level or they have not been in the sport for long, or you totally agree, disagree on their results and their way of training, you can still learn something from him. And that's his that's his perspective, not just on swimming, but on life in general. Um so he would he would take any coach in the world and and try to see what can I learn from this coach, and and then sort of take that and go to his own swimmers and say, okay, this swimmer might have some benefit from it, while this swimmer will will not have, and that's that's sort of his philosophy. It's a very individual-based, and you can't do one size fits all in training. Um so you you gotta take every person for what it is, what the person is and how their life outside swimming looks, and yeah, take it from there.

SPEAKER_01

And so you making that transition, it allowed you. This is another thing that I think is worth explaining to people in the US because we you know, just sort of follow your story a little bit. You talk about uh swimming at the same time you're going through university, that's that's fairly common here. Uh it is not common in Denmark to do those two things at the same time.

SPEAKER_00

I think back when I started, I was probably one of the only ones in Denmark who swam at a high level and was taking a degree in something.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so that's really uncommon. And to me, it's quite a shame that uh they they don't push that anymore from the from the Federation or someplace else. I mean, they that should be the main focus. Um and I think that people in the US they have it really good on that part of it. So you should be lucky.

SPEAKER_01

One of the things actually I discussed on my last podcast, um, I had a guy on from Canada, and I think this is really relevant to some of the and we'll we'll talk sort of more about um about we'll talk about some general swimming topics later, so I don't want to get too far ahead, but but I think you know, one of the things that he was looking at, he's a he's a Canadian coach and he's studying what's going on in Canada, and one of the sort of negative developments as he sees it is that the average age of the top swimmers is actually going down in Canada at a time when the swimmers are getting older and older. And I think that w you would agree, you sort of you're you're you're pointing it out, um that that would be a worthwhile thing for Danish swimming to consider too, is that they're going to need um older swimmers as they move forward.

SPEAKER_00

That's one part of it, but it's also just the human aspect of it. That you you can't solely focus on the results of a swimmer without building them up for the rest of their life. I mean you have to build some some sort of support and foundation around the swimmer. So when they're done swimming, especially if they continue till they're 30. You gotta build something something up around them that they can rely on when they're done swimming.

SPEAKER_01

Um Yeah, I always thought that was something actually that that people misunderstood when I was in when I was living in Denmark and Danish people were saying, oh well, you just have, you know, you have the sports work really well with the education. You know, you have uh you know, your sports work with your uh your high school and your sports work with your college and this thing and the other thing. And I thought, okay, it it is true. I I I think it is a strength that the US has this system. On the other hand, um, you know, the the swimmers are uh the the flip side of it of the swimmers are actually really for real. They're going to college, they're really studying, they're really trying to prepare for something else in their life at the same time that they are swimming. So it's not it's not that they're just like having swimming made easier for them. I think the missing the missing piece from the outside looking in is the part that you talk about, is that they are living a complete life, and that is actually also good.

SPEAKER_00

That is good for your swimming, and it's important for me. And it should be to to coaches as well. And sometimes I think, especially in Denmark, you you have it. I mean, some some of us swimmers in Denmark, we can continue a while and we can continue up until we're 30. I guess that's a little bit uncommon too in the US. Um But other than that, you have a lot of kids who quit when they when they start high school, even. And the rest of them they stop after high school when they have to start college. Yeah. So that's the big difference. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

So you keep swimming through university.

SPEAKER_00

Uh at some point you come over to the United States, right? Yeah. Yeah, I took an exchange program. So I went to Ohio State and I had a really good time there for six months in the spring of uh 2013. That was uh 2013. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So that was that was shortly before we met. Um and you're you know, you're a Danish person, so you're you're following uh Janta's law. So you're not gonna brag uh or you're not going to be boastful at all about where you got to as a level uh in swimming.

SPEAKER_00

But it's fall the connection is falling out a little bit. Oh, I'm sorry. Uh can you st can you hear me now?

SPEAKER_02

Hello?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, hello?

SPEAKER_01

Alright, I can edit that part out. Um you're a uh Danish person, so you're following Gantas Law and you're not uh you're not gonna brag about where you got to in swimming, but you got to a pretty good level uh by continuing to swim into your 20s. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that at least. I could get you to brag maybe a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Um so when I got the new coach, my level was at uh I could almost meddle at nationals. That was that was where I was at. And to me, it's it's always been about reaching that next level of of swimming. That's what uh that's what motivates me to keep on going. And whenever I reach a new level, I wanna I want to push on to the next level. So what happened when I got him was shortly after I started winning national championships instead. And I got to a really good spot where right now I think I have around 25 national titles in Denmark, and I'm sitting pretty good on the short course as well. For 50, 100, and 200 breaststroke. There's some young guns in the 50 that are trying to trying to knock me off the throne. But it's uh it's exciting. And for a while now I've been sitting sitting there, and it's been hard moving past that, to be honest, but that's what um that's what the next goal is, and that's what I'm working on right now. So that's also why I made the move here to Austria.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, we're gonna get to that in a second. But here's a really interesting question to you, because I think you know, um one of the things that you have to confront a lot of times, especially if you keep you're you know, you keep swimming to age twenty seven, is exactly the phenomenon you just described. These periods where you're getting better, you're getting better, you're getting better, and then you have times where it's not clear that everything is moving forward. During times like that, like what keeps you motivated? Why do you why do you continue to swim? Because I think that is, you know, those sort of those plateau spots, those are spots where a lot of people just say, like, oh, that's it. That's it for me. No more.

SPEAKER_00

Well, of course, the most important thing is that you love swimming more than you love the result of it. I mean, you can't just love the standing on the podium, and and that's your whole motivation. You have to love the process, and it has to come from there. And as long as you do that, you just have to find something new in your training that makes it interesting and can motivate you. And and that's that's basically how I do it. So you have to love, you have to love showing off for practice, you have to love doing recovery workouts, you have to love doing your work. It's it should be looked at like a job, and if you don't love your job, then you're not gonna go very far, right? So I guess that's how it is.

SPEAKER_01

So when when you and I were together, that you were training at your it's your hometown swimming club in Denmark, and where you had all the East Coast Farms Swimming Club. Uh, and now you have made a move to Austria. So t tell us a little bit about that, what motivated the move um and what it's been like in six weeks since going there.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so as uh as we started out saying, it's um to me it's important that I have a connection with the coach and that the coach understands where I come from, and that sometimes I open my mouth and I disagree on something. And uh to be fair, I mean it's it has to be grounded in some sort of scientific knowledge or whatever. And you can't just say that you disagree and you don't want to do the main set because you don't want to do it. That's that's not gonna go well for anyone. But um when I came here, I actually I came here six months ago for a three-week training camp. And it was the most intense training camp I had ever done. Um we we trained a lot here, and I didn't think it was gonna make me any better, but I just I right now I'm just uh I'm disagreeing with myself because actually back then for the three weeks I didn't disagree with the coach at all. I just took it in and I said, okay, uh this is definitely not what I'm usually doing, but I'm here as a as a sort of testing it and and see where it's gonna take me. And it turned out really great. Uh normally when you when you switch an environment or you focus on something new, and you might get better in that particular thing that you're focusing on. And the rest of the stuff, like your starts or your turns or whatever you're not looking at, might deteriorate a little bit or just stagnate. But actually, I improved on every aspect of my swimming, and I improved in the weight room, and I just I felt happier, and that that made that made it the move like so much easier. So when I got back, I took a quick chat with my coaches, and we decided that this should definitely be something I should I should explore more and see if I could make a permanent move down here. So it took like a couple of weeks after that and it was all settled. Uh I wanted to go. And the crazy thing here is that I'm in a team with six breaststrokers. I think uh that's all better than me. They are way better than me and way better than any national breaststroker's ever been in in Denmark. So it's uh it's a competitive environment, and that's what I like about it. Um you can always push yourself more, and there's always a guy next to you that that can push you a little bit more than you would be able to at home.

SPEAKER_01

And yeah, I like and give give us a a bit of a picture of your coach. Um you're being coached by Dirk Lange. And I think a lot of people a lot of people in the US might only know him as uh for the work that he did in South Africa and you know him him uh yelling at uh Cameron Vanderberg or whoever, or Gerhard Zandberg, or somebody else in in, you know, they they read a news article about him getting angry with one of those guys. So um give us a little bit more depth about what he's like as a coach.

SPEAKER_00

Well, first of all, he's from Germany. And uh wouldn't say any bad stuff about people from Germany, but he can be strict sometimes, and he can be very like how do you say this? He he pushes you, and sometimes he pushes you a little bit too much, so you go over the edge, and you have to recover from that, but then he's fair. So he would say to me, put on more weights in the weight room, and I would do that, and the next day I can't swim because my muscles are tired. And he acknowledges that and says, Okay, maybe you pushed a little bit too hard yesterday, so you back off swimming today. So it's like he wants to see where that edge is for you. And sometimes you go a little bit past it, and sometimes you you don't. And oftentimes, even if I I'm a person that can push myself really, really well, but sometimes you you need someone else to to help you take that extra step, and sometimes you can't you're looking at the edge, but you don't want to go past it. That's a natural that is natural, right? So he he helps with that sometimes, and um that's totally different from what I'm used to back home. But as long as there's that agreement between us that that's how it works, and we can always talk about the stuff um that's bothering me, then it's it's totally cool. What I don't want is a coach that yells at me and doesn't acknowledge me as a person and doesn't listen to me when I simply can't swim, you know? Um because that's not fun in the long run. It's not even fun in the short run.

SPEAKER_01

No, no. Alright. So so yes, so we've got you as a swimmer, and and and thanks for for going through all of that. Now, I want to talk to you about because you've got a little project going on. Um I do something that is is just sort of well it's just sort of just starting to get off the ground in some ways, in other ways um it's already a real thing. Uh so talk a little bit about that that project.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um so it started two years ago when um me and one of my friends I started studying with uh seven years ago at university. We him and his uncle they were actually doing triathlons together. And um they discovered that swimming goggles were simply they were really bad. The market right now is like it's the worst, right? They haven't been in made any inventions in a while, and it's not even what 60 years ago that people used to swim without goggles. So it's really lacking, and and with the technology we have right now, something needed to be done. And what we did was uh we looked at the problem with swimming goggles, and the problem is that they don't fit. Uh they take in water, they hurt when you use them for so long, and even competitive swimmers, they some of them are just used to it by now. You don't even notice that there's a problem with your goggles because you've been using them for 10 years and it's just what it is. But we wanted it differently, so so what we did was we came up with the technology that allows you to download an app and scan your face via that via our app. And from that scan, we extract a lot of data on your facial structures, and we use that to custom fit a goggle uh specifically for you as an individual. Um so that's the that's the scope and that's the goal. And right now we are doing a Kickstarter crowdfunding campaign where we are just north of $30,000 right now, and it runs for another 27 days, and our goal is 50. So we have a little way to go, but I think we can do it. And um what we need the money for is to buy a robot, because right now we already know like we already have developed all the technology and it's only in place and we can produce a goggle, but it's manually produced right now. So when we when we get the when we get the data of your face from the scan, um we build some we 3D print some support walls that we put inside goggle and on the outside of the goggle. And from that we can sort of cut the gasket, the material that that touches your face, um, to uh to a curvature that that fits your face. But we do that manually right now with uh with a heat thread. And what we should be doing is have a robot do it so it's nice and smooth and even and it's also much faster.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So so that's that's the revolutionized thing. Like uh a custom fitted goggle that won't take any water, still race fast in it and sits comfortably on your face, and you don't get red rings around your eyes and all those annoying things that you just used to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean you guys are uh this idea really had a lot of appeal to me, and not just because I like you, but also because uh my own personal history with goggles, which um if if there's anyone from uh from my high school swimming days listening to this, they probably remember that I wore the the really basic, I don't even know what they're called, but you're you you're sort of right about the lack of innovation. Um really really basic sort of speedo um weird sort of foam rubber uh gasket uh goggles, and I was so nervous about them falling off when I dove in the water that I would push them, I would like suction them into my eyes so hard that my eyes would kind of bug out looking. And then eventually I found some, you know, and I think this part this story like resonates with a lot of people that eventually I found a a brand that kind of sort of fit my face, and now I'm really worried because I think they stopped making them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's the worst time.

SPEAKER_01

They somehow moved on, like to making a slightly different kind of goggle, but nothing again, nothing innovative, nothing like new. It's just they kind of changed it a little bit. And now it won't now I'm like, well, well, what's gonna fit uh what's gonna kind of sort of fit my face? Um actually I've been go ahead.

SPEAKER_00

I've been doing a little bit of uh coaching as well for triathletes, and what always finds me funny about them is when when they start out swimming, they they buy all the equipment, and when it comes to goggles, they test out a few and they figure okay, they don't fit. So what they turn to is the mask. So that's the only thing that they can seem to fit, right? It's the mask. That's the that's the best fitting part because it doesn't even touch your eyes, it just sits on your forehead and around your chins, and like it's yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I so I you it is right that I think a lot of people have been been almost everybody has been putting up with something that's that doesn't fit them well um in this department. And and the crazy thing is like again, I think about my own life. I mean, I I um I recently uh got got a bunch of t-shirts. My my my my wife does all my clothes shopping for me. That's a big secret about me. Um and but she found somewhere where they make t-shirts that fit me pretty well. Now that's nice.

SPEAKER_00

How do they do it?

SPEAKER_01

Well, it just so it's just luck, right? It's just like they happen to make a t-shirt in a size large that fits my particular body shape. So they didn't collect any, it's not like that was their no, nothing like nothing like what you're doing, but I'm thinking like um that's great, although the size of my upper torso can fluctuate a little bit and that t-shirt. But when when you talk about what you guys are doing, I mean the the sh the the kind of stuff you're measuring that just basically doesn't change on a person.

SPEAKER_00

Uh no, basically not. I mean you had to gain a lot of weight to change your goggle shape. Yeah. So yeah, uh what we actually do is we we take a lot of pictures of your face and put them together to to make a nice 3D model of your face. And from that we can go in and measure around a thousand fixed points around your eyes.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

And that's that's like one part of the of the algorithm. And then you have another algorithm that has to fit the the those points to your to your goggle. So it's actually a two-part algorithm. And the second one actually required a lot of testing because how do you tell a computer program to fit a goggle? What's the optimal position for a goggle? How does anyone know that? Uh and it had to be something that we could all agree on. So the the perfect fit for me should also be the perfect fit for you. So, can we find some common denominators and try to make uh an algorithm based on this? And it turns out that we actually could. So we teamed up with uh a lot of uh professional athletes from Denmark, a lot of really good swimmers from the national team and stuff like that. And we sat together and tried to talk each other through what we really liked about goggles and what we didn't like and and how they should fit. And we came up with a tons of prototypes and and took it from there. And I remember the first one uh I tried on, it it didn't fit. So uh so we went back to the drawing board and we went through a couple, and pretty quickly actually it we came up with something that that fitted me, and and then from there we went on to other people and they came with some more adjustments, and yeah, and that process has taken around four months, which I don't think is that long. Um and now we're at a stage where we can actually fit it to anyone. So that's pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, talk one of the things that we you sort of we talked about fit and and comfort here, but uh it strikes me that uh there's possibly also sort of a performance aspect to this. I mean, um, you know, you you we we both laugh at the example of the triathlete wearing a mask, but um having goggles sit the right way on your face has to have a performance advantage as well.

SPEAKER_00

Of course. I mean, it don't fall off when you do a start.

SPEAKER_01

My my biggest anxiety, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. And I guess for triathletes, it's also a really big issue that you get your goggles knocked off in the start, right? When you uh a thousand people on top of each other.

SPEAKER_01

Right, and somebody kicks you in the face and goggles.

SPEAKER_00

And now they just they sit better and they sit more comfortably. That's also a big problem when most people they would then use uh the Swedish goggle.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Just because that's where you get the most customization, you can like assemble it yourself and and adjust the nose pieces as you want and stuff like that. But are they really comfortable? I mean, it's it's really hard plastic and it's it's not the ideal way, and if you use them for trio and you get kicked in the face, then yeah, you're gonna you're gonna regret it.

SPEAKER_01

No, I mean I I I did for for a brief period of time, I did wear Swedish goggles, but I think anybody that has worn them has had the experience, which is that if you haven't worn them for a while, you need to wear them for at least a week before it doesn't hurt your face.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

The entire time you're wearing them. Which is not a great thing.

SPEAKER_00

And I guess the swimmers they just build up a tolerance for it, right? I mean that's that's your main tool, that's what you use every day. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Right. It's kind of like it's kind of like uh I I think of that as um uh you know, uh I I'm not sure I I it because my smoke detector never did this in Denmark, but uh I didn't live there for long enough for this to happen. But you know, in America when your smoke detector is running low on batteries, it starts chirping and um uh it it's a noise that you you hopefully should never tune out. But there are people out there that just let it chirp like forever and they just sort of get used to it. I think I would not advise, even if it's possible, I would not advise getting used to something like that.

SPEAKER_00

Um exactly. And and actually that's but that's also sort of uh sort of an issue for us, because whenever you say you are selling shoes, yeah, and you take shoes out to people and you say, Oh, I made these new shoes, uh, try them on and see if they fit you. But we can't do that with the goggles, right?

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Because we have to scan you first and then we have to produce the goggle. Fortunately, it's it's pretty fast. Uh the process it will take from the scanning is done to you click buy, it'll take a week uh if you're in the US, and maybe nine to ten days if you're in Europe, and then you'll have the goggles. Uh but still, that's uh you have to to rely on on other people's sort of testament and what they're saying. And we'll have to see if if people are ready for that. But when we get the product out, we we believe that that people have to see for themselves and that that that could be a this could be a game changer.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean this is an important part of it, right? Is that like you're you're you're making a custom goggle. So when people get it, they have to be really happy with it.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Um not like they can go, you know what? Actually, I needed a you know, it's not like with shoes, uh I needed a 45 instead of a 44.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's gotta be it's gotta be the perfect fit that you guys are are saying it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00

Of course, but with anything else that's new, of course we will have a return policy that makes sense. So if you don't like the goggles, you you send it right back and we'll refund it. I mean, that's the only way it can make sense, right?

SPEAKER_01

So So if people wanna support this Kickstarter which you referenced earlier, where do they go?

SPEAKER_00

I mean the company is called uh the Magic Five, and the Five is the number. And we are live on Kickstarter, so if you go there and you search for the Magic Five in one word, no spacing, then we should pop right up. And funny story about the name, it's um it's because 95% of the goggle is mass-produced in a factory, this is sort of to keep the to keep the cost low because we could easily make a goggle that's custom-fitted to everyone, and it will cost I don't know, a thousand dollars or something.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

We wanted to keep the cost sort of low so so we wouldn't be so we'd be affordable.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And 95% of it is the same for every goggle. That's the lens, the glass, and the the temples on the side, the elastic bands, stuff like that. What we customize is the nose bridge and the gasket that uh touches your face. So those are the important parts. That's what we looked at and say, okay, these are these are the key things you have to custom fit to to make it fit every person. Um so that's the that's the story behind the name. That's the last five percent, but we create all the magic.

SPEAKER_01

The little things that make a big difference.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so T-H-E Magic, the number five, and that's what people can look for on Kickstarter. Exactly if they want to support it.

SPEAKER_00

We also up on Instagram and Facebook, um, that's those are uh primary channels for marketing and stuff like that. So if you wanna wanna see some cool pictures, go check that out.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and when I put this up, I'll I'll link to uh I'll link to that stuff so people listening to this, you can you can just uh you can see where uh where all this stuff is. So the last thing you know, I just wanted to so we talked a little bit about you. Uh your own swimming, we talked about um the Magic V. And then, you know, uh I I didn't want to let you go because you and I um actually we got made fun of by the the national team coach of Denmark at the time. I don't remember for what no no that's because he didn't make fun of you, but he made fun of me. Um uh when we were at that meet with Marseille, because I think we just started talking swimming like during a time in the meet when um when there was nothing going on for you, and we it may have gone 90 minutes or two hours while like uh some swimming was going on in the background. So we like to talk some swimming. One of the things I I want to talk to you about because I think we kind of touched on it on the outside, but I think is sort of uh it's something you know about that even I I find myself getting more and more curious about is that you know a lot of swimming is built around kids, right? And why not? Because we want kids to get involved in swimming, we want them to do competitive swimming. So um I wonder if you could talk a little bit about like interfacing with a system built for kids as an adult and and and maybe like maybe some funny stories about that, like uh or um how that's worked for you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Okay, so first off, I'd say how the system is different in Denmark compared to the US. We already talked a little bit about it, but in Denmark and most of Europe for that for that sake, it's it's mostly club based, right? So where in the US you you do some club swimming uh when you're young and you're a kid, and maybe you'd even do it on the side of your high school swimming, if I'm correct. Yeah, but then when you switch to college, it's only people at the same age as you. Those are the only ones that you encounter.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

In Denmark, it's totally different. You you have club swimming all the way until you end your career. That's the only choice. Either that or you can swim publicly. I mean that's that's the only recreational swimming, right? So that's the that's the only option you have. And um what I find myself in is often an environment where it's 50% of the people are younger than 15. Say that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And that's where you step up and you step in the at the pool and you that's what you what you're met with. And for most adults, that's not really inspiring, is it? I mean, I take my sport very seriously. It's uh something that I wake up to do every day. And to live in a world or in a in a sport where it's all centered around kids, it's it's not ideal. And um I wish more could be done about it, but it's also a question about money and and funding and sponsorships, and it's a big picture, it's difficult to wrap your head around, I think. It's definitely something we can discuss.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I I I I was thinking, and just back to your your foreign days, I mean, yeah, I would say there were I mean, there were a lot of 13 and 14 year olds training in the same pool at the same time you were swimming. And and one of the things that I do think we take for granted in the U.S. is sort of all this swimming with our peer group. So that's really I mean, uh we have there's a lot of debates about the value of high school swimming in the US. Um uh, you know, I happen to be I'm gonna be coaching a high school team here in a month. Um thanks. So I happen to think there's a lot of value in high school swimming, partially because of that that aspect where you know you get to swim with your peers and you get to swim with the people that you go to school with. It's important. People at your school hear about how you're doing and you're swimming. You know, it's like it's it relates to them in a way. Um but but you know, uh the reality is too that um uh it always it always behoted me when I would hear a swimmer say, you know, sort of uh get bummed out like you referenced about the fact, uh, I gotta train with kids, you know. Um when that's just the reality of the systems that we have in place, and we can of course we can talk about how to change them. Um but uh you know, that is the system that we have right now. Um what do you I I I I I'm curious, and now I'm gonna hit you with a few uh sort of left field questions, but I think so what do you think Danish swimming has had some nice success. They're they're a country that punches I like to say they punch way above their weight, which I mean they do way better um than than a country of that size should do. Um and they had that breakthrough. The the the the big thing was they were uh they were doing really well, but not at the Olympics. And so 2016 was sort of a breakthrough in that way, although you know, like Tornilla Bloomas swim goes a different way. Um maybe it's not seen as much of a breakthrough. Um what do you think what do you think makes Danish swimming a country that punches way above its weight? And uh that's my first part, and then I I have a follow-up question, but just answer that one first.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's uh that's an interesting question. And if I think I think that if anyone knew, why wouldn't we just do that all the time? It's uh it's I think it comes back to sort of the mentality of Danish people, sort of. I think because you can say a lot of good stuff and a lot of bad stuff about Danish people, but I've said a lot of good and bad stuff about Danish people. Exactly. But um I guess we are ranked one of the happiest people in the world, right? And um it's uh it comes down to how you are educated in school, how how your life is uh when you're little with your family, and it's very like we don't believe in authority that much, and it's sort of everyone can can disagree on anything. And oftentimes you don't even have to have a valid argument, you can just disagree and get your get your say, sort of. Um I don't know if that makes sense to you since you lived here.

SPEAKER_01

Uh no, that makes a that makes a ton of sense, and I think it's one of the reasons why you know I I was listening to you describe your relationship with Dirk Lange earlier, and I was thinking like, oh gosh, there can be a lot of situations in America where what Nicholas is talking about is just not really gonna work. Because uh, you know, I think in some ways, especially in the sports world, things are a lot more hierarchical in the US, in that, you know, you shouldn't um you shouldn't be disagreeable, you know, um and you shouldn't be disagreeable just for even you know just because um but that that's that that that autonomy is valued in some ways in in broad swaths of Danish society.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I think it's uh that's what I want to come back to then. Why is Danish swimming punching above its its uh yeah, where it could be. And I think it's because well we are a lot more happier when we swim. And it's um sort of you if you hit some some plateaus where you're not feeling succeeding and you you feel like you're stagnating, you you have it pretty well, uh either well, either way. And you can always go to your coach and talk to them uh about how life is affecting you. And since there's not that many swimmers around to take from, likely uh the coach is gonna support you if you wanna take, I don't know, one practice off for a couple of weeks to just feel a little bit better in school or or something like that. And I think that's an important aspect. Uh since we are so few swimmers compared to the US, I think you have to take each swimmer and and look at them and and say, okay, how are we gonna how are we gonna continue if if your goal is the next Olympics in four years or eight years and you have crazy talent? Um how can we how can we take you there? And we have to look at the whole picture. Uh we can't just throw you in at 12 sessions a week and then it's gonna kill you in two years, and we won't have anyone to to back up like as a backup because it's not that big of a country.

SPEAKER_01

So everybody we've gotta Denmark has to have all of its uh swimmers who have a chance really. Yeah, they have to pan out. Um exactly.

SPEAKER_00

You're you're putting all your eggs in that basket, basically. Yeah, so that's that's one part of it. You also see the girls have been doing really well. They are swimming up in their late 20s and even 30 right now, right? So that's um that's important, I think. But it's hard to say what produced those swimmers in the in the first place. I mean, I can only guess. Right? And that's really hard, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think um and uh what uh you you bring up the Denmark as the happiest country in the world, and that's the the follow-up question I was gonna ask you is that what what part of and this relates to it a little bit, but but but asking you sort of what part of Danish swimming maybe uh uh do people on the inside think works well? Because I think we we suffer from this a lot in the US is that it just that we're the best and that acts as confirmation for a lot of the stuff we do. It's like, well, we're the best, so what we're doing must be right, um even though we make plenty of uh really foolish decisions, um and still are the and still are the best. So it's hard to it's hard to separate. I think you know, um uh and I say that because uh we talk about Denmark being the happiest country in the world, like um I had always I I I came upon that knowledge, and I I've been to Denmark every year of my life since I was born. I came upon that knowledge though when I was living in the US, and so beyond my own family over there, I didn't really have a big picture of what that really meant. And and when you go over to Denmark, it's not like you walk around seeing people smiling all the time. No, no, no. There's people aren't like joyous, happy, but people there's a certain contentment with life.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's content.

SPEAKER_01

People feel good about where they are, yeah, they feel uh good about um where they are in relation to other people because they're they're gonna human nature will force you to compare yourself to other people. You will do it no matter what.

SPEAKER_00

And then it's also a political question because we have the social democratic country and social welfare is a big thing. And even if you're doing really bad and you're poor and you don't have a job, you're still doing pretty well. I mean so overall the average consentment is pretty high. I guess that's where we where we can put it.

SPEAKER_01

Oh gosh, let's not get into a com political conversation on this one. I don't want any I don't want to be outed as a socialist.

SPEAKER_02

Oh no, oh no, Americans don't listen to that part.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but I think that it actually plays in. I think that's an important aspect of it. And um because you can come from a poor family in in the US and swimming would seem like an expensive sport, I think. I don't know how it is, but it is for many people. In Denmark anyone can swim, basically. Yeah, it doesn't cost you much, and every kid in Denmark, because there's so much water around us, every kid has to learn how to swim. So we get to see all the talent. So basically, then it's just a question of the if the cup coaches they they can pick up on it and and put those through the through the waters and and get them swimming.

SPEAKER_01

All the facilities. All the facilities are public. Yeah. There's gonna be a a team in your local area. It's not going to be expensive to swim on that team. No, no, no. That stuff is all that is all stuff that Denmark um has.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. But it might not be a good team, but then there's not long. Uh like the distances are small, so you can always move to a bigger team and a better team near you, and you can still stay with your family. I mean, that setup works. It kind of works.

SPEAKER_01

So uh the question that I was like making a you know one mile loop around you was uh and and I uh far far be it from me to end on a negative note, but this sort of this is my last question. What is something when you think that maybe uh Denmark might think is an advantage it has, but it's but it's actually not? You know, like something that that you see like I reference the US we're the best, but we do plenty of foolish things. What do you see as something that um uh a lot of people are you know, sort of Danish swimming people might think like, oh, this is something that's really good that we do, but it's not actually.

SPEAKER_00

Um I don't know if it's something we all agree on, but something that I at least agree on, and together with my club coaches at home, um we look at the the Danish national team and the way the sort of the high end of Danish swimming works, and it's very competitive, and it can be too competitive for a small country. Um we have to acknowledge that we are a small country, and you have to it goes back to what we said before that you have to when you put all your eggs in one basket and you focus on these people and you want them to swim until they're old, you have to set up a system for them to be motivated and to to be engaged in swimming. And I think sometimes with international needs and international competition and championships, the the times and standards to qualify for a small country like Denmark is insanely tough. And when you transition from a junior to a senior, the transition is it's crazy. Like it's one you get one year older, but the standard times you have to to hit are so much higher, and there's nothing in between. It's not like there is university games that some countries go to, we don't go to that. Um it's it's like you have you have junior Europeans, and from there you have to qualify for worlds or Europeans or even the Olympics. There's nothing in between. And I think that sometimes is it's kind of missing. It was in my case at least, because I've been kind of short of the of the international qualification time sometimes, and uh I've only been to Europeans once. And to me, it could have helped a lot if if there'd been some sort of middle ground where I could sort of get that experience and see what it's like and have something to go to go like motivate me in in my career until I was ready to take the next step. Because I found myself a lot of times like missing a qualification with two tenths, three cents of a second, and then there's another year, and you do the same thing because the standards have like gotten a little better. Yeah. Um, you follow? I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I I I I think it's one of these things uh like and and I think you and I probably have had this conversation uh before, but it it is one of these things where you can see in each individual case why it's a good idea, you know. Like I totally understand why Denmark sets their Olympic qualifying standards, where they what do they do? They they have a certain amount of money to bring people to the Olympics, you know, and they they they really can't afford to bring people who they don't think are have some chance of impact at that meet. On the same time, when you look big picture, it I it is probably not helping them to have but I mean to me the Olympics is one thing.

SPEAKER_00

That's the that's like the end goal. I mean, that's totally fair that you have a high standard there because it has it requires a lot of money to send people there.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

But it's there's so much more stuff. Take for example, now we have Europeans, it's in our home court, it's in Copenhagen in Denmark. Yeah, and we are sending two people in each event, but we could send four.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

That's the that's the maximum number you could send. And I know Sweden is sending four. So we're sending less people than our neighbor country to our own event, sort of. Uh to me that makes no sense because we have a big stadium to fill, and that could actually help a lot out in the in the different clubs if they could see that the best ones from their team could go to the Europeans. Um, that could build a good foundation for each club around the around the country.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But instead we send half the people that we could, and because we want to be more elite focused. And to me, that's sort of a shame which you're uh that's a like you're such a small country and you have to wake up. And you could actually save a lot of money since it's hosted in our country. Right.

SPEAKER_01

There's one opportunity, you know, um to do it, to do it right. I know I I I I that part I I totally see uh I totally see what you're saying that that there's been a there's been a weird um exclusivity and it's a challenge for the people running it. It's not easy. It's much it is much easier to just say, oh, we're here's a really hard standard and only these people can can come. Much harder to because you know you want people to the the challenge when you make the big the meet bigger, right? Um, is that you you're gonna need to make those people who are on who you've expanded the meet to, you need to make it a valuable experience for them. And that takes work as a leader of that organization, work from the coaches, they have to do it. Uh actually, one of the the best experiences I had when I was coaching in Denmark was um that I was on those two European junior uh coaching staffs, and the first year there was a real focus on we've got to have a tough standard um to bring people to this meet. And I think the next year things became um a little bit more inclusive. Um I think Thomas Stub, who's in charge of Danish junior swimming, was really smart to do that, to focus on a really good job. Yes, to focus on being inclusive. The year after that, they got even more inclusive, and then oops, the elite results got better too. Um and so that was a that was a really interesting experience. But I know that he put in a ton of work to and I know that he was thinking actively, like, you know, I have some people who are really sort of more on the fringe with this meat now, and that will take work from me and the coaches that I bring to the competition to make sure that they don't show up and spectate at the competition that they go, okay, I'm here to do something.

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, but you're you're totally right. You're totally right. Um that's that's an important focus point.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'm glad we could finish on a note where I'm right. I'm right. Um, Nicholas, it's been great talking to you uh about all of this. It's it's uh fantastic to reconnect. I really I'm gonna be following um I'm gonna be following the Magic 5. I'm gonna be following you to uh see how you swim. I don't know uh when when's the next big competition?

SPEAKER_00

Well we have we have nationals in the month's time.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh so that's that's big. That's the qualification for Europeans.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and what do what are you what do you gotta go in a uh in a in a breaststroke race?

SPEAKER_00

I mean it's short course meters, so who who really knows? Uh it's uh it's 59-3. Okay, I think for the hundred. And that's that's my main focus. That's the event I want to go in.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

But they're only sending two, and we are three guys that could basically go below that. So it gotta be fast.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's the goal.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So it may even just be a matter of you know who touches second, which yeah, it's kind of that's cool and relatable.

SPEAKER_00

People are used to that in the US, right? So that's cool.

SPEAKER_01

All right, well, we'll we'll be following and uh uh thanks for the chat. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Thanks so much to Nicholas. We went a bit long because we were having so much fun talking swimming. If you want to support the Magic 5 Kickstarter, search for T H E Magic and the number five on Kickstarter, or check my post for a link to both their Kickstarter and uh the Instagram page to follow. They're almost all the way to their $50,000 fundraising goal. Uh we recorded this last week, so that they they got a bunch more money since uh this recording. For more great swimming conversations, go to ChrisDcoach.com. That's C-H-R-I-S-D as indesantiscoach.com. Keep the great comments coming. You can also find me on Chris DeSanta's coaching at Facebook. Write me a message, give me some feedback. Thanks for listening, and see you next week.