SPEAKER_06 0:00

Before we jump into this conversation, a quick word from the guys over at Swim Nerd. Are you looking for a pace clock that won't break the bank? How about one that every swimmer can see? The Swim Nerd pace clock is the most innovative and affordable digital pace clock the world has ever seen. Their nine-inch tall green LEDs are specifically made for outdoor viewing and are visible from 100 meters away. Bluetooth enabled, it connects to your swim practice mobile app, allowing you to program any step your heart desires. Take a minute, go to swimpractice.com and check out their amazing new pace clock. It truly is the world's best swimming pool pace clock. That's swimpractice.com. One more time, because I really want you to take a look at this. The pace clock is the most quintessential piece of training equipment for any swim team. Go to swimpractice.com and get yourself the best pace clock in the world. Your swimmers will thank you. In the second three parts with Sarah E. Kircher, we go a lot of directions, and be sure to check back with part one so you can hear the beginning of her story. In this second part, Sarah talks about her years living with and periodically away from Scott McFarland, including when she went off to college. The story is sad for sure, but there's also a lot of stuff in here that I think resonates for people regardless of their experience. Sarah uh shows how her perception of her own body got distorted, which is something that's all too common among athletes. And she also has some really interesting things to say about people who were in a position to help her and what they did and didn't do. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Well, and one of the things that I want to um that I want to start with before before we get into that is that the incident that started this all was completely unexpected. Yeah. I had no indication before that night in Irvine that that would happen. You know, um one of the reasons that I ever even felt some sort of comfort in the weird situation sleeping on you know, Scotty House or you know, four or five months before it happened, that was that you know, I didn't come on to me just seemed as normal as that situation could have been. You know, when practice, when people you know, be friendly. Um and so it was very unex unexpected. I had no indication that that was gonna happen. Um so it was very it was very shocking for me. So after that happened um that night um during that year, he during the summer, I think it was probably during the break, he took me to Las Vegas and we went with uh another couple, the coach and his wife, and we drove separately. We drove up from Phoenix and they drove up separately, and it was very bizarre because you know this had just happened and I didn't really know what it all meant.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

Yeah. Um how could you?

SPEAKER_02 4:34

And um, I think I spent probably you know, during that seven years in shock. Um I mean, I I really don't even know how to explain it. Um I can look back on it and um it was it was like seven years of my life that like what just happened, you know.

SPEAKER_06 5:00

Well, I I I think I think one of the things about this is, and I hear this in your story and I've heard it in other stories. I mean, um one of the things that um these these quite frankly, predators take advantage of is seven sixteen, seventeen year old kids don't know what an adult should be acting like. Like they they don't you're not an adult yet. And until you're an adult, you don't really have a strong sense of what's you know, what's appropriate behavior for somebody older. And and so it'll take until you, you know, get to a different place in your life to be able to look back and go, like, wow, that was wildly inappropriate what that person did. Like that that was totally out of line. But when you're a kid, you can be really confused about where those boundaries are, you know, and what's what's um what's wrong and what's right and how somebody else should be behaving.

SPEAKER_04 5:58

Um and uh, you know, that these guys they take advantage of that.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, um because of the situation that I was in, as far as you know, Scott McFarland, you know, became my guardian.

SPEAKER_04 6:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

You know, I did I didn't have a place to live. He was my guardian, all of a sudden, like we had this now weird relationship. I mean, I hate to use the word relationship. Um but you know, it was also during a time of you know, I'm a junior in high school, I'm a senior in high school, you know, freshman college, and you know, those years of when you know you're you're forming your identity, you're getting older, you know, year by year, obviously, and um usually your parents are teaching you, you know, things about money, things about how to go out and be in the world.

SPEAKER_04 7:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

And you know, that that for me, that stopped actually when I was a little kid and I became my mother's caretaker. You know, my you know, because everything surrounded taking care of my mother. You know, we did my brother and I did our little activities and stuff like that. But, you know, the last two years of my before my mom died, um, and especially like the last six months, we you know, my my dad and my brother picked me up at practice and we would go to the hospital and we spent every night at the hospital and then we went home and we started over again. And so I feel like I just missed out to no nobody's fault. Um, you know, because my mom was sick for so long and then, you know, she passed away and then we had the m the that few years of mourning before my dad got premarried. But you know, it didn't take me I didn't realize it until way later in my life that I just didn't learn how to be an adult. What it meant to, you know, here's my paycheck. What do you do with it? You know, how do you pay your bills? How do you do this? I mean, I remember not even knowing how to write a check. When I you know, when I got married, I was like, I don't I didn't even know what Walmart was.

SPEAKER_04 8:35

You know?

SPEAKER_02 8:36

It was like these little these little things that it probably sounds really ridiculous, but that's what it was like, you know, because I you know, I went from taking care of my mom, my mom died, dealing with my stepmother stuff, to living with my swimming coach off and on for seven years, and then I was out into the world. And it's like, wait a second. Um and you know, it's taken me a really, really long time to through trial and much error to um I don't want to say become an adult, but you know, I mean, I don't even know what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_06 9:22

Um, I I I mean I I I think that um, you know, in many ways it it highlights the vulnerability and it's uh important for, you know, a a lot of the people that listen to this podcast are swim coaches and I hear from them. And I think it's really important for them to understand uh that they're gonna have kids with tough family situations at home. They're gonna have, you know, little taros on their swim team. Um and you know, this story is one where uh a swim coach took advantage of that vulnerability to do something really awful, but swim coaches have an opportunity to do something really powerful for those kids. Um, you know, they can actually help them learn what it means to be an adult. You know, they can model a uh better relationship for them. They can um, you know, they can work against some of this stuff. I I I truly believe in in that opportunity. I mean, I I I definitely uh we and we've talked about this, I I definitely didn't learn how to be an adult in in my house either. And but I was, you know, uh I I've written about some really bad swim coaches I had. I also had some phenomenal, I had this group of women that coached me in high school, and they are incredible. I have relationships with them to this day, and god, like they really saved me from a lot um just by coming in and and modeling a healthy relationship for me. Um I'm really thankful for that.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Yeah, and I think what should have happened during that time, and I didn't even, you know, the bottom line is I blamed myself for what happened.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

I blamed myself until 2010.

SPEAKER_04 11:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Um, because, you know, hey, I was this horrible person that got kicked out of my house.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Even if it wasn't like I was out doing drugs and stealing cars or whatever, you know, I decided my father um because something was important to me and you know, that was the price that I paid. And um so it was my fault. And uh you know, the thing is is that what should have happened was that my my high school should have intervened because they're professionals there. And the the parents on the team should have intervened in some way. And why didn't Scott McFarland instead of doing what he did, why did he not do everything he possibly could to get me back home?

SPEAKER_04 12:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

You know, why wasn't he reporting it to people he should have reported it to and said, Hey, stay here temporarily until we figure this out with your family or I go into foster care until I'm eighteen years old, or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Whatever it was, why and this is kind of what's frustrating with me because you know, I read the the comments on swim swam and it's like it's like, really?

SPEAKER_06 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Yeah, I didn't have a choice as to what was going on.

SPEAKER_06 12:56

I would professionally my my professional recommendation would be to stay away from the comments on swim swam, but I know that's hard.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

No, absolutely, but it's difficult not to get not to get uh yeah.

unknown 13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

That's been recommended before. Right. But you know, but it's interesting because I and I think it's actually important because he this is what the culture is. The bottom line. The bottom line is somebody's a gay coach, um you know, they were both adults. No, we weren't both adults. I was I was a kid and he was seventeen years older than you know, I don't understand how people think that someone at seventeen, even eighteen, is an adult I can tell you that there's no ad there's no adults. My children when they were eighteen years old were not adults.

SPEAKER_06 13:49

Yeah. Yeah, and this is something fundamentally we've got to get through too. And I got I got of course I got and you know, left this comment uh to some other people. It's just fundamentally disqualifying as a coach, this behavior. You know, no nothing else matters. You're not a good coach if you do this. The end.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 14:11

So So hold on, let's go back to Vegas. Let's hear let's you you were you were telling the story of Vegas. You've you've gone out w the was this for a swimming competition?

SPEAKER_02 14:22

No. So it was and it was so Scott could play poker.

SPEAKER_04 14:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

And I don't even remember what the other two coaches were doing. Um well the coach and his wife.

SPEAKER_04 14:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Um and um so Scott would go down and play poker and he would have me sitting, you know, like to the side of him watching him play poker all night.

SPEAKER_05 14:46

Seventeen years old.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

And I think starting when I was seventeen. There were there were other several other trips that we that we took there as well. Um you know, and I just remember feeling super uncomfortable, you know, because it was like, Oh, is this your daughter? You know? And and I can tell you that when I was seventeen I looked like I was thirteen. You know, and I re I remember vividly the the shirt that I had on. I had on this white guest because guest was really popular back then.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Sweatshirt and it had two teddy bears on it.

SPEAKER_04 15:27

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

So so here I am sitting next to my swimming coach while he's playing poker, seventeen years old with this guest teddy bear sweatshirt on.

SPEAKER_06 15:40

Oh my god. And uh And and I guess the other part of the story is that there's two other adults that are on this trip along with you and looking back it's pretty weird that they just thought this was a normal situation between the two of you.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

I don't know. You know, I remember when we when we all went into the hotel and they went to their room and Scott and I went to another room and I was thinking, well aren't they gonna like wonder what's going on?

SPEAKER_04 16:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

You know, I mean it was embarrassing. It was embarrassing, it was it was I mean, it was just like the creepiest feeling, you know. And you know, people are gonna I mean people are always gonna have their fascinating opinions, but you know, what was what was I supposed to do?

SPEAKER_04 16:39

Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

So yeah, that was uh one of the trips to Las Vegas and um you know, we went back and I continued to swim, you know, my senior year and uh and this went on.

SPEAKER_04 17:00

Um until you know, I went to college.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Oh no, no, no. I went um that summer, I graduated from high school and I think like the next day I went out to San Diego and swam for another team. Um which I I would leave there were several several times that I would leave and um go and swim somewhere else. And three three or four of those times, two or three, three or four, um, they were with Scott's friends.

SPEAKER_04 17:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Um and it was usually somebody that I met at a swim meet and you know, and I think it was just because I needed to get away. But the thing is is that there was always something that pulled me back because Scott had complete control over my life.

SPEAKER_06 17:51

And so even when you were away, he was kind of controlling what you were doing in a in a manner.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

He wherever I stayed, I usually stay with a family and he paid them for me to stay there. Um and um as far as I know I mean, you know, I was there to swim. Um there was one instance that I went out to California to swim with a team where I mean I had a job. Scott was still, you know, giving me money for rent and stuff like that, but I had a job and so I had to, you know, pay for things 'cause he only gave me like a certain amount of money. But um you know the thing is is that um and I I think I I think I explained in my statement to the investigator in 2010 that I felt like it was this super codependent um relationship. Um I I either used that term or I used the the term that I had Stockholm syndrome. You know, um because all these crazy they were horrible. You know, horrible things were going on, um, and how bizarre my life was and trying to survive my life, but that was the person. That was the person that manipulated me into this situation. And controlled, like when I say control, he controlled everything. He he only allowed me to eat. Like this is what you get to eat.

SPEAKER_05 19:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

And I re you know, you you you can eat chicken, turkey or fish. You can you can only have cheese when your weight doesn't get above a certain number. You know, no dairy, no this, no that. And so that's what I did. And I remember the first time that I had a hamburger when when I was when I was in uh I was swimming out um in California at at Polar Tim and I was driving to a swim meet and I remember I'm like, I'm stopping at I don't know what it was, burger thing or something. And it was it was the best thing I ever tasted in years.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

But you know, it's um because it was you know, living with this person who controls your entire life, um you know, that's what you get used to. And because I didn't really understand what was going on, you know, nobody can at that age. I mean, maybe right now if I was held captive I would have a better understanding as to what was going on. Right. But it was during that seven years, I strongly believed that I was like a captive.

SPEAKER_05 20:47

Yeah, that was your life.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Yeah. Um, and I couldn't get away because when I got away the control wasn't there, and so what how how am I supposed to make my own choices?

SPEAKER_06 21:01

Yeah. Yeah, well you were depending on him for a lot of things.

SPEAKER_05 21:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:08

So uh were there because I want to get to you know uh you going off to college, but was there other stuff before you um went off to school that you know looking back on uh you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Or probably and it'll probably come up on something.

SPEAKER_06 21:37

Well, I think one one part of this is you were swimming fast, right? I mean, um despite despite all this, you you ended up getting recruited to be a Division I swimmer.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

And yeah, which which Scott actually says in his statement that I used him to get a college scholarship. Which I find Fascinating because how does that happen?

SPEAKER_06 22:06

Any college coach that's listening to this uh uh knows that you know you definitely give out college college scholarships based on uh some club coach strong arming you. Actually, no, that's not at all what anybody does. So um yeah. Like many other things, not a believable part of the story.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

No, so so I was I was out in San Diego, I stayed out there for, I don't know, a couple of months, and ended up going back to Colorado before I went to college. And um, you know, uh I'm just gonna be honest and say, um, you know, like on the la on the last podcast I talked about, you know, I didn't care about anything except swimming. And so what I basically did was I did the bare minimum in high school so that I could go to college.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

You know, I didn't care about my grades. I didn't yeah, right, right, right, exactly. I didn't care about my grades. Um I remember the first time that I took the ACT, um, I had a swim meet that that that weekend too. And so the whole time I'm taking my ACTs, I'm thinking, well, I have to I'm gonna be late to the swim meet. So, you know, like on the last section I just went through and like marked up a bunch of stuff and went to my swim meet because that's all that I could think about.

SPEAKER_04 23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

And um I you know, I I mean I I did well enough to make sure that I was eligible to swim in college. And I didn't care. I didn't care about, you know, I have swimmers nowadays that are like, well, I've taken it six times and now I got almost to perfect.

SPEAKER_06 23:48

So now I'm getting coaching.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Right. And and now um now I'm a good enough person to where I can go to this college. My life is complete because I've now almost ached the SAPs or ACP. That was that was not me.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

It was okay, perfect. I know it's bull, we're good to go. And um so um yeah, so I went to the University of Arkansas and before I left Scott told me he said, Well, if you weigh over 125 pounds, don't come back.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Um what a cruel thing to say.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Yeah, I mean Well, and I thought that was normal.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Like because, you know, I it had been ingrained in me long before I met Scott McCrown with it was with other coaches. Um that you know, I mean when I was 13 years old, I think I weighed 113, 115, and um I was told that I was fat. So okay, well fine, I'll weigh 105. So I swam at like 105. And um but it was never good enough, you know. So I questioned um you know, am I fat? Well, I'm gonna swim slow if I'm too fat. And that was a struggle that I I had throughout my entire life. And um not the swimming fast part, but you know, I'm a fat person.

SPEAKER_04 25:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

I'm fat. I'm fat if I weigh over 105 or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_06 25:24

But um well I I sorry and I I just wanna uh add that I think this part of the story resonates with what I hear from a lot of female athletes, which is that you know, uh especially somehow in swimming, it's in the culture that um there are a lot of uh uh girls that you know sort of break out performance-wise when they're 13, 14, 15 years old, and um then they hit puberty, and they go through puberty, and their body changes. Um but they end up as uh as they go from you know being girls to women with an image in their mind that uh I need to get back to you know looking like I did when I was 14 years old. Because that was uh when I was really swimming well, whatever. And it's and uh that's a really thick part of the culture. I mean that beyond um it it it's really harmful to uh women on our sport and and way too common um that women are feeling that way.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Oh yeah, absolutely. Um because and I don't think it's just I I think the part that hurts the worst, um, and it's not just women. There are yeah uh, you know, men with eating disorders as well, but um I I think it's that I'm not good enough. No matter how how little I the way I am.

SPEAKER_06 27:12

The way I am right now.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

So you know the way I am is not good enough.

SPEAKER_06 27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Um if I don't weigh this, I'm not good enough. Well, I'll weigh this. I'm still not good enough. You know, hundred hundred pounds, ninety-five pounds, like what's ever good enough.

SPEAKER_04 27:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

But you get it in your mind that no matter what I do, it's not good enough. And so that is I think one of the most damaging parts is the feeling and I can't speak for anybody else who's been abused, but I would imagine that it's just not good enough.

unknown 27:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

And and you know, that's how I felt during my swimming career. You know, my swimming. It was you know, I don't know how you know everybody else is on the pool deck besides, you know, talking to some of my coaching friends who are super positive. Um nothing's ever good enough.

SPEAKER_04 28:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

It it doesn't matter how how fast you swim, how thin you are, how anything, it's not good enough. And I think it's important to let our swimmers know no matter how how what no matter what type of coach a coach is, you know, some people are more gentle, some people are more, you know, forceful um in their coaching because everybody has different coaching styles, but I think it's important to always let people know that you're good enough. You're good enough no matter how fast you swim or whatever you weigh. Um, it doesn't define you as a person because uh those were the things that I believe that if I didn't swim this fast, if I wasn't this thin, and it but it didn't matter. You know, I could have I could have broken fourteen thousand world records and weighed a hundred pounds, it was never going to be good enough.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Because that's what I was told.

SPEAKER_04 29:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

And so having to live your life feeling that no matter what you did was not good enough, that's not a good feeling.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

That's terrible.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

That's not how a person should feel. Yeah. So, um, anyway, so I so I went to uh I went to school and uh every single day, and I can tell you that Martin Smith, who was the head coach there, is an amazing person. Um um super gentle, super caring, completely opposite of what I had experienced. And I was I was scared. I was scared as far as well, I'm not gonna swim well because Martin's too too nice.

SPEAKER_06 29:47

Because he's too nice.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I I seriously thought that. And the practices were not, you know, I wasn't going three thousand meter brushstrokes per time with a page block in front of my face.

SPEAKER_04 29:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Descending five hundreds and you know, thirty two hundred IM and brushstroke and you know, just you know, ten thousand yards of meters every practice, um, that I was scared. I was like, Well, I'm gonna swim like that because Martin's nice and these practices are too easy. And I would actually go to Martin and I would say, Hey, can I do more? You know, because I that's what had been ingrained in me. Um, and it was very foreign to me. But um I would weigh myself. I would um go to the the football players had this giant scale. Um and 'cause they're giant people. And uh I would you know, it kept getting closer and closer to Thanksgiving. And I would weigh myself because, you know, he was not kidding when he said, Don't come back if you weigh over once you're five.

SPEAKER_04 30:53

Right. And took that seriously.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Yeah, and I and I can tell you that the food in Arkansas was amazing.

SPEAKER_06 31:00

You know, good southern food.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Yes. It was like it was like stuff and plus I was away from Scott. He couldn't control what I ate.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Um and so I was scared every single day. You know, I would go and weigh myself on the scale and it kept creeping up and creeping up, you know, like 120, 121. And I'm like, oh my gosh. Well first of all I thought I was incredibly fat. And I think when I went home for Thanksgiving, I was one 125 and I just remember being like, oh no, you know, like this is not a good thing at all. Um, you know, so it's not it's not a good thing to have to be hyper vigilant about your weight.

unknown 31:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Somebody says that you can't come home. And um, you know, how do you swim well? How do you swim well with that? How do you swim well with all these questions in your mind as to whether somebody will let you back home or you know or be abusive to you when you get back home. You know, because Scott was not only sexually abusive to me, he was verbally and emotionally abusive to me as well.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Um you know, it wasn't like, oh, it's he's so pleasant and so caring and everything else. It was it was a constant barrage of negativity and how I was basically a piece of grass.

SPEAKER_06 32:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah, I mean nothing was ever good enough.

SPEAKER_06 32:32

I I think that's a kind of oh you you and I talked about this off the recording. I mean, this kind of really important part of the story is um you know, and I think the wrong narrative here is you know that that you were able to put up some good coming performance uh regardless of this behavior. In fact, in spite of this behavior, really, that's uh that's uh how I think you should look back on it. Um not that you know uh all this because I think too often it's going to end up justifying this totally inappropriate behavior. Well, the but the kids are coming pretty fast. Um they're coming fast in spite of this. Um those kids are uh amazing uh that they can do that, um, not the coach.

SPEAKER_05 33:25

And uh it's a really important distinction to make.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Absolutely. Um it uh it did not foster a good environment, not to the imagination.

SPEAKER_06 33:40

And just to anybody listening to it, um, you know, would I I I I hope that their takeaway is like, oh, I can't believe I mean I can't believe you showed up to practice every day, you know, uh for for what you were having to deal with. That that part of it is incredible, much less that um uh you know, you ended up being a Division I uh scholarship swimmer.

SPEAKER_05 34:07

Um so you came back for for Thanksgiving and uh But what was it like going back and forth and you know how did things how did things progress through that year at Arkansas?

SPEAKER_02 34:34

So you know, at this point, especially when I left um and came back, I felt you know I know that my other team members were I don't I mean I don't know if they were all resentful. You know, I think back then people don't even know why they feel or what it is they feel, you know, because we're all just like growing up. Um but it was it was uncomfortable, um, especially because I'd been gone for a while. And um I think um, you know, people had ill feelings towards me, which they have you know, I'm not gonna take that away from them. It was a it was a horrible situation on that team when all of this was going on. Um I think that the ill feelings were should have been towards Scott McFarland.

SPEAKER_05 35:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Instead of um, you know, hey, he's a great coach, you know, and all this stuff. So I'm sure it was a sire relief when I left because it wasn't around anymore. And then I would come back and then they would have to live it. Um and so I think what was projected onto me because of all of this that um oh no, there's that. Yeah, you know. And I think it was um you know, that I'd got blamed for it all.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

And you know, I will never take away anybody's experience, um, or try to justify my position or anything else. Um it was a difficult, horrible time for everybody.

SPEAKER_04 36:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Um but I think people really need to take a look at w who the problem was. You know, because I think even if, you know, I was mean or I was this or I was that or whatever it is that people want to say that I slam with, um I was whatever I was because I was surviving my life. And and and that the fact that and the fact that I had to spend every single day of my life being hyper vigilant about protecting Scott and um making sure no one found out. Right. 'Cause that's what I did. You know, that was my life.

SPEAKER_06 37:05

Well, I think there's probably a lot of former king aquatic swimmers right now or or fast swimmers that are, you know, looking back on their time uh swimming with Sean Hutchison and reconsidering, you know, uh how they felt during that time because I'm sure it wasn't a good situation for the other people.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Right. Uh well and it may take it may take them a while because you know people people feel the way that they feel. When you're that young, you know, we don't even have like our reasoning brain until like 26 to 30. So the thing is is that people feel the way they feel. Um, I think that needs to be validated and and maybe later in their lives they'll have a better understanding as to what those feelings were and who those feelings should have been toward because they should have been toward Sean.

SPEAKER_04 38:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Not anybody else that was affected by Sean.

SPEAKER_04 38:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Um and the same with Scott. You know, I I know, you know, like at the NDOR I was completely trashed by teammates. And um and and teammates that I spent time with almost on a daily daily basis as as friends. You know, like people do when they have friends. And um, you know, so so there were several teammates that took Scott McFarland's side.

SPEAKER_05 38:35

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

And and totally trashed me about what a horrible person I was. You know, all these other things. Well, you know, the thing the bottom line is if I was such a horrible person, why did you go to concerts and movies and spend basically your entire life with me?

SPEAKER_04 38:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

You just like torture?

unknown 38:54

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

You know? Yeah. So so anyway.

SPEAKER_05 38:58

So d did you end up finishing the year at Arkansas?

SPEAKER_02 39:04

No, I um so first semester, so I went back home for Thanksgiving. Um, went back to school after Thanksgiving. We went to training camp, um and I was really, really sick. I barely even swim, um, couldn't really figure out what's going on, and um found out at training camp that I was pregnant. So I'd gotten pregnant on my um trip back for Thanksgiving. And so I had to go to Martin and um tell him I went to his hotel room, I sat there and cried and told him and I I told him that it was somebody else.

SPEAKER_04 39:50

Yeah, you protected Scott.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Yeah, so I threw this other person under the bus um because I knew that Scott would I mean, I knew that Martin would talk to him and um went home back to Colorado and had an abortion and went back for the beginning of the second semester and I was just a mess.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Um and I can't remember how long I stayed during that first semester, but I eventually I told Martin and Mary, Mary, his wife, just two amazing people. I just absolutely loved them to death.

SPEAKER_04 40:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Um, you know, was like throwing stuff in my suitcases, getting ready to leave, and Mary came to my dorm room and was throwing stuff out of my suitcases, you know, she's like, You can't leave, you can't leave, begging me to stay. And um and I was just like, No, I I I can't do this. I've got to go back and live in the insanity that I've been living in for for two years. Because that's what I knew. You know, I lived in the insanity of my taking care of my mother and my mom dying and my stepmother. It's like if things weren't insanity, then I it was difficult for me.

SPEAKER_04 41:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

And I I d I but I was just such a mess. I was just such a mess and I j I just couldn't do it. I didn't have the strength to do it. And it broke my heart that I I left because I I absolutely to this day I love Mary and Martin and um um and I'm so grateful for you know their love. I really don't want to start crying.

SPEAKER_06 41:39

Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 41:42

I just I um I mean, I I'm I'm feeling a bit emotional myself just because, you know, just hearing that story of her taking stuff out of your suitcase, it just feels like maybe, you know, she didn't know all the details, but it sounds like somebody who you know had some sense of what was going on with you and wanted to help you know in this story.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

So um it's tough to hear.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Yeah. It's um it's difficult to talk about. Um, you know, I think I think most of the time when I talk about these things I can be sort of matter of fact about them. Yeah. Um but I but I think there's different things that, you know, touch me. Um and I wish I could have gone back and I mean, I wish I could go back and change that. Hey, okay, I stayed. Mary talked me into it. And I was I was able to get away from the situation.

SPEAKER_04 42:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

You know, maybe at some maybe at some point I could have I could have told Martin and Mary what was really going on and maybe things would have changed. But, you know, that's not what my story is. Um Yeah. And um, you know, but I've often thought about that 'cause they were amazing people. Um and I had a great time at Arkansas up until that point. So Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_05 43:11

So you go back you go back into the mess in in Colorado and you never you never returned to college swimming.

SPEAKER_06 43:20

And what what was your life for the years after that?

SPEAKER_02 43:28

So I went back and swam shot and then decided, um this is nineteen eighty-eight now, and decided that summer that I was gonna go out and swim at Fullerton. Ironic. Ironic that I went out to Pullerton. I know um we're talking about that. Um and Bud McAllister was the coach and um Went and swam there, lived with a family, um and uh trained there through I wasn't there for a super long time. I think I actually left maybe in the spring. I think I was b I think I was back in Colorado maybe for a couple months and then I was like, okay, I have to go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_04 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

And you know, the the funny thing is is you know, and coaches can kind of probably understand this dynamic is of you know, when you go away to travel meets and stuff like that, your coach has friends and you know, your coach hangs out with people and I think maybe more so for me because you know, I was like, that's little sidekick. You know, and I use that term because that's kind of like a cute little term.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

I don't mean I don't mean I don't mean it that way.

SPEAKER_05 44:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

You know, and I and I think one of the things that I thought if I when I would leave and would be that somebody would talk to me and say, Hey, what is going on with you and Scott?

SPEAKER_04 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

And maybe help me. I think when I left it was like a cry for help. But the thing is is that nobody ever said nobody ever nobody ever asked me, hey, why are you living with Scott? Like what's going on there? Is there anything I can do to help? How can we get you out of this situation?

SPEAKER_06 45:30

Yeah, uh I think that's really important to bring up because people's lack of like people's uncomfortability with you know asking those kind of questions has contributed. I I don't want to shame people here because I I I I I want them to learn I want the them to learn to do the right thing, to learn to say like you can step in here and you can make a huge difference if you ask that kind of question. Um, you know, and and uh what you can do to move past that uncomfortability because there are people out there right now who are waiting for you to ask that question and and waiting for you to offer help. And maybe even you know, maybe even if somebody had asked you, you might have still protected uh the situation. But it couldn't hurt to ask. And and you know, somewhere in the back of your mind you might have kept like, okay, that was a person who kind of w you know had some inkling that there's something going on here and they might be able to help me get out of this situation.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

Right. Yeah, and so those were not things that I thought of then.

unknown 46:42

No.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

It's it it's those are things that I thought of years and years later looking back as to why I did the things that I did. You know, why did I leave? Why did I go back? Why did I leave? Why did I go back? Um, you know, I I left um to get out of the situation and um hoping that somebody would say something. Even if I lied. Even if I lied and said, No, everything's great, whatever. You know, maybe after leaving, you know, I swam for one three or four of his friends. Wow, you know, maybe the last one finally said something and I was like, yes. And you know, and I remember, um, and this is kind of jumping forward, I went out and swam in California again with another one of uh Scott's friends, and um I uh had a stress fracture in my foot, and so I was doing a swim bench a lot. I'm sure younger people won't know what a swim bench is, but um um yeah, so I was doing that and um because I did a lot of running as well. I ran a lot um when I was a swimmer and uh ended up messing up my foot. But um I remember this coach came in and it was before practice where everybody else was there, and he came in, it was kind of in this like he went down the stairs and there was this little area where the swim bench was, and I was in there just work it out on my own, you know. Sure. Still wanted to swim fast, so nobody needed to keep an eye on me. So I'm in there and he walks in and he's like, And I hope I don't start crying again. I hate crying.

SPEAKER_04 48:31

Um It's okay though.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

I uh I know. I I said, um or he came in and he said, Um, you know, Sarah, you're good enough.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

Oh my god.

unknown 48:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

I mean, I think we were probably talking for something, you know, for a few minutes before that. It's not like he just walked in and said that and sat down and I was you know, I still swimming on the swim bench and um he said that and I just and he left, he left the room and I remember just I kept swimming on the swim bench and crying, you know, and I wanted so desperately to tell him or have him, you know, um intervene, intervene in some in some way. And you know, the thing the thing is is that um all of the swimming coaches that I went to go and swim for, it you know, inter intermittently um they were all wonderful to me.

SPEAKER_04 49:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

And I think maybe they you know, like they I just feel like they went out of their way to be um you know, extra caring in s in some way. Um and maybe that was just their way of doing what they could do.

SPEAKER_04 49:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

Because they didn't know how or competent do anything else.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

Yeah, that's what they knew to do. So they did that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 50:16

And you were on and off again, we we think we both agree relationship is too polite a term, but we haven't come up with something better. You were on and off in this relationship for seven years.

SPEAKER_04 50:30

From uh up until you were twenty-four years old. Correct. Um I think it was eighty-nine ninety.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

Must have been ninety. Um I met someone I I went to visit a friend um California and I met someone while I was there. And um after I went back to Colorado, I immediately went to Scott and I was like, you know, this is the person that I want to be with. And um Scott got totally pissed off and um Yeah took my c took my car away from me. He's like, Well, you can't you gotta give me the key to the car. Um and you need to move out. I mean, that's kind of like a really nice version of what happened. But um I remember on that day, I mean I can picture it in my mind. I know where my car was parked, I went into this school area where he managed the pool and um 'cause I'd like literally gotten back into town and uh um I was wearing these white heads. Teds were super popular back then too. With no with no socks on. And I I had to walk all the way back to where we lived. And it was probably at least five miles.

SPEAKER_03 52:03

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

So I walked in my kids and he was closely behind, like I don't know if he was like following me, but by the time I got back, he came in the door not very long after that, and you know, yelling, screaming and all this other stuff, and um you know, kicked me out and I went to Phoenix and lived there.

SPEAKER_04 52:32

And um yeah. We that was that was like the first time that we had like like that was it.

SPEAKER_06 52:46

The first time you had seriously sort of tried, you know, like actively tried to break away, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:54

I mean Yeah, that was like the first time that I had like identified the relationship. You know, I made up my mind, I wanted to be with this other person, and you know, those were the consequences. The consequences were homeless, no car. Exactly.

unknown 53:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

Which, you know, just ultimately proved the years before of what were my choices. You know, my choices were okay, well, this is what's going on. So I have a place to live, I have clothes, I have food, I can swim. Um, when I didn't do that, that is what happened. When I made the decision that that's not what was gonna happen, that's how that took a turn. So anyway, so I ended up in Phoenix, I was there for a while, got fired from the team, evidently in um because we didn't have contact for a while, um from the team in Colorado. And um he made a little detour to another place, which I'm not gonna talk about because that's not my my story to tell.

unknown 54:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

Um, and then eventually ended up in Phoenix.

SPEAKER_06 54:22

It's too i it's uh you you almost don't believe it's true, but that's what happened.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

Yeah. Um and you know, the funny thing is is that I was you know, I was having my own life there. Um I was still connected through the place where I was swimming. You know. Um but not I mean I was that made fun.

SPEAKER_06 54:53

Yeah, you were you were still swimming for some people that were connected to Scott and you were living with some people that that knew him.

SPEAKER_02 55:01

Yeah. Um and yeah, so he moved back there. That's when um I met another person. I mean, not that I had relationships, so there's another coach there who comes into the story later.

SPEAKER_04 55:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 55:18

Um but eventually, and I can't remember how long after he got there, but we ended up living in the same house together again. I'm only laughing because I'm glad you could laugh about it. I'm like, who can make this stuff up? Um but but I had I had I had drawn I had drawn the line. Um we lived together, but I there was nothing going on between us.

SPEAKER_04 55:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:49

You know, I was basically living my own life. We had dogs. Um it was great to be my no, I mean I you know, you have animals that come and live with you. These I l I love these animals. Um and so it was great to be around my dogs again. Um and Scott just sort of lived his life, I lived fine, um, and then he got a job in Virginia. And this other coach came to me and was like, Yeah, I'm moving Scott hired me as an assistant coach. And I'm like, Oh yeah, me I'm moving to Virginia too. So I had made the decision to go to move to Virginia. So the the the three of us separately moved out to Virginia.

unknown 56:38

Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 56:40

Yeah, so I was probably I don't even what what year was that? Maybe during the ninety like the fall of ninety. Um and uh swam with him there and I was the oldest person on this team and swam with a bunch of thirteen, fourteen year olds.

SPEAKER_06 57:04

Was this the start of your coaching career though too? I mean did you start coaching when you were out there?

SPEAKER_02 57:09

No, I started coaching in Colorado when I was nineteen. I coached the Summer League team.

SPEAKER_06 57:13

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_02 57:14

Yeah, I coached the Summer League team and um um and sort of did that kind of stuff. Taught lessons and you know did a little bit of coaching. But it was not I wouldn't say that was like my it was yes, it was the beginning of my coaching. But I wasn't like full time coaching until I was uh twenty five. Um but uh yeah, so the three of us two coaches and myself all live together.

SPEAKER_04 57:51

In Virginia. In Virginia, yeah. Um and um yeah, so you can imagine how inside that one. Oh man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:11

And I mean and so the the interesting part about this is, you know, so you uh you had this experience of of being in Colorado and you know, uh uh especially you ran into some of these people later on in life who were sort of observing the situation from afar, you know, and and thought that knew that you were uh uh uh a high school junior uh that had moved in with uh with your swim coach. Uh you know, people out in Virginia didn't necessarily have the whole uh background story uh but it was still uh it's still uh a weird situation since you were swimming on the team.

SPEAKER_05 59:02

Uh you know, were looking back on that time in Virginia, I mean, were there people who you felt like saw what was going on or were people more, you know, just acting like it was normal?

SPEAKER_02 59:20

Um, so when I when I went to Virginia, um you know, I lived with those guys. Um but then I also ended up moving into a place with like normal age learning.

SPEAKER_04 59:38

So I think because I don't even remember if people knew that I lived with them when I was in Virginia. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

Um you know, the thing is it's like it was so chaotic during the these seven years that you know, and and because I spent my life covering up what was going on, you know, some of the things I can't even I couldn't even keep straight. You know? Because I basically spent seven years lying about what was going on, protecting Scott. And when I say I want to make it clear when I say I'm lying about what was going on I'm I lied about what the reality was. Wanna make sure if anybody's listening going, ee, she's a liar um I I feel very strongly about the word liar because I've been called a liar so much. Um that um you know, it by by the towards the end of it it all got fairly blurry, you know, um because it was just this endless why that was going on with me trying to focus on my swimming. Because I always want to make it clear that like swimming starting back when I was twelve years old was what I think gave me any sort of peace of mind. Um and so I held on to my swimming as long as I hospited. Um so I don't remember. I don't remember if people knew or didn't know, like because it was much easier to move somewhere else and have that situation and not have people find out. It wasn't like I was living in my hometown, docky got my house, and then magically I'm living with Dom McCarling. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:39

Mm-hmm. Yeah, people didn't have the background, so you know, it it might have tipped them off a little bit, you know. They're like, okay, why is this twenty-year-old uh that's swimming on our team living with her coach, but you know, it it didn't trip as many boundaries with with people out there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

Yeah, exactly. I think I may have been twenty one. I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:11

Okay, got it, got it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

Yeah, so so I I so I continued to swim, I had a job, went to practice, lived with you know, these lived in this house with this couple and another guy, and we were all roommates and you know, hung out and I did things that people my age did. Um and um uh and because I don't want to bring other people because you know they're not my it's not my story, but um you want to skip ahead to how it eventually completely ended.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:45

Yeah. Yeah, like we said, we could do like, you know, we've joked that we could do like the eight part series.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Right, exactly. People would be like, Okay, if I hear one more story about Ferry Eacher, I'm gonna scream.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:59

We could do the eight part series, but we'll at some point we have to cut off the stories.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:04

Um We've been listening to Sarah Ecusser talk for the last year and a half.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:09

Um so the coach that moved out there during that time, he ended up getting another job somewhere else, so he left. And um I did I did go during that time, I think so that maybe that was like ninety maybe ninety-one to ninety two, I did go and swim at another place um for maybe a year and then ended up going back to Virginia again. Um I just I just laughed because it's so ridiculous. Um and uh so this was you know basically towards the end of my swimming career. And um so Scott hired another coach. Um and uh I met him and six weeks later we got married.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:03

Oh wow. Holy mackerel. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:09

I like within a week. Did I ever tell you that story?

SPEAKER_06 1:04:12

Uh I knew you had been married. I I did not know that you married somebody in six weeks.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

Uh I'm I moved in with him a week after we met.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:24

Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

So he so he went with me to Scott's place and um we packed up my stuff and I left and I remember going through CDs with Scott, you know, like whose CD was who. And I remember I remember like having an argument over the New Order CD because like if it was like a two volume thing, and he got the good new order CD, and I got like the B side. Uh um yeah, so I mean just stupid ridiculous stuff like that. Like, you know, like that was my life.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:00

This was the mid-90s, so you probably had like a full CD tower. Um, you know, people like people who are uh under 25 probably, you know, have no memory of do not do not understand but there was a time when in between records and the digital era and tapes and post tapes when right like you you know you kept your CDs in the you had people had ornate storage for their CDs.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

Yeah. So I I mean I just I just remember that. I picture that in my mind. We're sitting on the floor like going through the CDs saying, Well no, this one's fine. No, this one's and I'm sure that people can relate to that because if you've ever like broken up with somebody and you've combined, you know, records or tapes or CDs or whatnot that, you know, no, I want mine.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:59

Yeah. Um I I tell people this all the time and I have to um I you know sometimes when I tell these stories I think people think my my uh wife is too cruel. I actually really admire this about her. Uh well we when we got together, we moved in we decided we were gonna move in together after a few months, and but she insisted that we move when we moved in together, before we moved in, that we had a plan for when we broke up, like who had to move out, who took what stuff with them, you know, who's which stuff belonged to which person. Um we had to like get all that formalized, and then we could move in together. It was actually very practical, and it thankfully we never needed it. But um yeah, I can relate.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

But she still have that plan with you.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:56

Uh I I think she's I think at this point, after ten years together, she's let go of the escape plan. Um, I think. I don't know. She might still have one. She might still have a secret one.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:09

It's a secret one hidden somewhere.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:11

Right. You should br you know, break this case in case of emergency. Exactly. Just break the glass on this. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

Anyway, so um So you get married. I get married. I got married after six weeks.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:32

Um and the funny thing about that is you know, we moved in together like after a week and uh we uh decided that we're gonna get married during the six weeks, and um you know, we we told our friends, it was terrible actually. And we actually planned for like a May this would have been like the beginning of short four season, you know, because I I I I I remember everything by short fourteen. Um short fourteen and uh you know we decided to tell everybody we're gonna get married in May, so that would give them plenty of time to you know, give us an elaborate wedding and everything. Yeah, that was never gonna happen. Um and um so we went to we went to uh on October fifteenth of nineteen ninety-three. We went to the Justice of the Peace with two of my friends. My my friend my girlfriend friend and her boyfriend were the two witnesses.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:44

Yeah, yeah. And uh all sounds totally normal and not chaotic at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

And uh we got married and um he went and coached afterwards in that practice.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:00

Well, you know Junior's juniors is coming up, you gotta you know, he gets ready.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:07

I'm like, really? You can't get like a a night off from practice. No, because practice is so important. Um so at but at that point, um Scott had moved to Pennsylvania and took a coaching job at Chippinsburg um University.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:32

And um shout out to listener of the pod and and reader of the blog, uh Gian Alessandro, who I guess had the unfortunate experience of swimming for him at at Chippinsburg.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:45

Yeah, maybe you can have him on the butt.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:47

Yeah. Talk about tell his story.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:50

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

So um so there was another coach who was the head coach and my husband was still the assistant coach. And I was swimming master um at that point.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:01

Naturally.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:03

Which I thought was super fun. Yeah, it was actually fun for me to swim at that point. Um and I remember for some reason I don't know if maybe Scott had to move, maybe he was still in town, a teenager at that point during my whirlwind romance. I didn't really know what was going on. But I remember I was swimming um and he was standing there talking. I came into the polar area for some reason and um was talking to my ex-husband and uh I had to dock at some point and he was like, Oh, I think you can find me some butterfly.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:45

Just some casual negging about your swimming.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:50

Like I didn't realize I couldn't swim a butterfly before. So um Yeah, I ended up at some point at the Pittsburgh and um I went on my merry way. Um we ended up my ex-husband got a coaching job in Hampton, Virginia. Um we were living in Charlottesville and we moved to New Hampton and um the weekend that we got married, um I got pregnant and had my son in July of 1994. Um we took my gigantic child who was nine and a half pounds when he was born. And uh we lived in and uh Craig hired me as uh Oh actually then I was hired as a developmental coach. Um there was already a headache group coach and then Craig was the head coach. And I would pay $70 a week.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:05

That's quite a salary you commanded there.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

It it was, it really was. Um but the next year I was I retired as a headache group coach, so that's really um when I believe that you know, sort of my coaching career started.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:22

Um and um And you went on uh you had two children. I did. I do. You do. Uh and can you pause it? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I'll do that. Hold on.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:56

That's the end to part two. There's gonna be a big time jump as we go to part three since we have so much ground to cover. We're gonna go ahead to Sarah's 2010 National Board of Review and the eight years that have followed, straight up to the present day. For more great swimming conversations, go to Chris Dcoach.com. That's D-H-R-I-S-D- Asn DeSantiscoach.com. You can also find me at Chris DeSantis Coaching on Facebook. I'm working on another one of those media movie reviews. I've got another podcast first part of this that you can also see. Otherwise, see you next week.