SPEAKER_00

Before we jump into this conversation, a quick word from the guys over at Swim Nerd. Are you looking for a pace clock that won't break the bank? How about one that every swimmer can see? The Swim Nerd pace clock is the most innovative and affordable digital pace clock the world has ever seen. Their nine-inch tall green LEDs are specifically made for outdoor viewing and are visible from a hundred meters away. Bluetooth enabled, it connects to your swim practice mobile app, allowing you to program any set your heart desires. Take a minute, go to swimpractice.com and check out their amazing new pace clock. It truly is the world's best swimming pool pace clock. That's swimpractice.com. One more time because I really want you to take a look at this. The pace clock is the most quintessential piece of training equipment for any swim team. Go to swimpractice.com and get yourself the best pace clock in the world. Today on the swim brief, I'm joined by Professor Trevor Gray. That's right. You'll hear more about that as we get started. And we're going to talk about concurrent training. We'll get in, we'll define that, but basically, what we're talking about today is what to do with the training that you do besides just the sport of swimming. And Trevor's got some really specific insight and information on that. We get into it, we talk about all sorts of different scenarios, whether you're a club coach, whether you're a college coach, for using some of this stuff. So I hope you enjoy.

SPEAKER_04

Got a got a new job and just kind of plugging away at that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, hold on. Before we even get started, tell people about that.

SPEAKER_04

I am now professor of anatomy and physiology and nutrition at uh Tacoma Community College here near Seattle.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's really cool. It's great. So I'm I'm teaching all this stuff now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so Professor Gray.

SPEAKER_04

That's right, you can call me Professor Gray now.

SPEAKER_00

Professor Gray. Um I won't because I'm disrespectful and I don't like you know calling people by their. Do you know that this just before we even another like side jaunt we can take, I the the type of person who when I was a a kid growing up, the type of person that would demand like not not obviously like your teacher or whatever, but outside of the context of like school or whatever that would demand to be called Mr. something or um whatever that instantly actually knocked them down a level in terms of my respect for them. But they but they would say that their reasoning for it was that so that you showed respect to them? So it actually had a paradoxical effect on me. Um that makes sense. But that's uh among them my college swim coach who insisted on being called uh coach.

SPEAKER_04

Right. I do not require that they call me that. But some sort of formal uh addressing is I'll I'll have I'll have them do that. You can't call me by my first name.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And now and now um uh you know, obviously I I only coached two boys um this past year uh you know, uh day to day, and I called them all sir. So I like to invert it.

SPEAKER_04

You know, yeah, how'd they respond to that?

SPEAKER_00

Actually, um first they think it's funny, and then second they I think they do uh turn it back to you. You know, they would jokingly call me coach, even though they knew that I was just wanted to be called Chris. So it was kind of um I think the little uh those little inversions are actually kind of fun. Yeah. Um but that's not what we're here to talk to uh talk about today. We're gonna talk about concurrent training, and it's actually a really, really important topic. And if you're not familiar with the term, it's it's uh and you're listening, it's because you're not as smart as Trevor and I. Um we're we're really smart and way smarter than you, and that's why we know what concurrent training is. No, I'm just kidding. Um concurrent training.

SPEAKER_04

I think 75% of the audience just hung up or just stopped listening.

SPEAKER_00

Concurrent training is something that I learned the definition of yesterday, but now I'm an expert. And um no, it's a really important topic for swimming, and basically, well, let's let's define it from the top. As I understand it, um, it's really about uh swimming and strength training and the combination of the two and sort of when you're doing them in relation to each other. Do I do I understand that right?

SPEAKER_04

Correct, but let's expand it beyond our little bubble of swimming. Concurrent training is any uh uh any same-time training modalities where the primary activity is concurrently being trained with some sort of auxiliary training. So golf and yoga and uh tennis and strength training or plyometrics or whatever other auxiliary training you're doing at the same time, not same workout, but sometimes same workout, but within a 24-hour period.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Okay. So any kind of like cross-training um that you're doing besides the the primary, the sport that you're engaging in. Um and that's what makes it pretty important because uh, you know, everybody pretty much is doing some kind of concurrent training that I know.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, even Michael Andrews dabbling in it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Even he I mean surfing, surfing is can be concurrent training.

SPEAKER_00

Even he is breaking the uh sixth commandment of race pace training um that Brent Rushall brought down from the mountain.

SPEAKER_04

That's right.

SPEAKER_00

Uh no dry land. Which I don't even w we're not gonna get into that part of it, but I I don't even totally agree that he said no dry land.

SPEAKER_04

Um he did not comp you are correct.

SPEAKER_00

You are correct. Just for everybody. Um, read a little bit more in detail. He does not say no dry land, he does make some arguments against a lot of the ways people do dry land.

SPEAKER_04

That is correct, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So um I guess uh, you know, before we even get into some of the ways uh and some of the stuff that you have researched about how this should work, maybe it's it's good for us to just go over some of the considerations that people might have, like what are the reasons for doing concurrent training. Um I know that uh I talk with a ton of people who are like, you know, yeah, I want them to be uh good at swimming, but I think there's a huge benefit to doing some form of cross-training. It creates a more athletic person, a better athlete, and that uh actually enhances the training that they're doing in the water. What are some other considerations you think people have for doing concurrent training?

SPEAKER_04

Uh uh starting at the beginning of the season, general fitness conditioning. So instead of just pounding out the yards early season to get in shape, well, let's add some uh dry land modalities to complement that. That makes sense. Uh offset muscle imbalances, which swimmers tend to have the traditional rounded or rolled shoulders. Um, let's go ahead and and work some of the muscles to counteract or counterbalance that. And then there is some strong evidence for injury prevention. Um, so um, to again, I think that goes hand in hand with uh counterbalancing uh primary movers, but uh it those those factors are all all should all be considered when designing a concurrent training program.

SPEAKER_00

Where do the suicides that my college coach made me run before my freshman season fit into this, Trevor?

SPEAKER_04

Uh that's called mental training, Chris. Oh, I can't believe you don't even know about mental training.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_04

It builds mental toughness. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_00

That's the catch-all justification if you want to have somebody do something that makes no sense. You just say that it builds mental toughness.

SPEAKER_04

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

Apologies to everybody who does 100 hundreds. Okay, sorry. I'm just getting in all the jabs today. So um I think those are all really good considerations. Um so, in your opinion, then, uh what is the best practice? What is the best way to set up concurrent training?

SPEAKER_04

Well, first we need to consider the biomolecular signaling that is associated with training. And one is aerobic conditioning, which includes all forms of swimming. Uh, there's a certain biochemical pathway that is associated with stimulation and adaptation. Strength training, on the other hand, there is a different biochemical pathway associated with gaining strength. And research has clearly showed that they can interfere with each other. So let's just take, well I'm gonna nerd out a little bit and take one molecule. And during aerobic training, there's a molecule called AMPK, adenosane monophosphate kinase. It's an enzyme that uh signals for mitochondria biogenesis and angiogenesis, and and an aerobic conditioning is associated with that. On the other side, in strength training, there's molecular. That's proliferation of blood vessels. Okay, got it. I'm glad you asked. Thank you. On the other side, there's a molecule called mTOR. It's either a mammalian or a mechanistic target of rapamycin, and that is the molecule that signals for muscles to become bigger and stronger.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

And those two molecules are not compatible. And so if you know that, then you go, oh, the the chemical the biochemical pathways for aerobic and strength training are different. And if you do them at the same time, they're gonna interfere with each other, kind of canceling them out. So there's one problem there.

SPEAKER_00

So so are so let me just uh if I understand what you just said. Um when you say interfere with each other, they interfere basically with the body's ability to adapt to the training. So you you can put a bunch of stimulation, um both sort of aerobic stimulation and then sort of strength stimulation, but not get the adaptation growth because they interfere with each other?

SPEAKER_04

The 100% adaptation growth. So let's say that for easy number purposes, you elicit AMPK at 100%, you had a great workout, right? And then you go strength train, and mTOR is then elicited, and then all of a sudden it interferes with AMPK, and the amount of adaptation that could occur with the aerobic training is diminished. So you're not going to get that 100% stimuli that we just did with the aerobic training.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_04

And so what I'm saying is this timing is really important when you do concurrent training. It's really important.

SPEAKER_00

Gosh, and uh I was just saying to you before we even started that. I mean, um I don't think well, I think people sometimes give a consideration to timing, but not necessarily so much consideration for how the two uh might work with each other in terms of adaptation and growth. Think about like what's convenient. I mean, if you're coaching, if I go back to coaching a college team, I remember um we had a strength and conditioning coach at Georgia Tech. Uh we did um a lot of our strength and conditioning in the morning. Um we had some people that just uh showed up and did their strength and conditioning, and that was that. We had some people that at times were swimming and then coming over and doing their strength and conditioning, so they'd be doing like a double that day with with strength and conditioning afterwards, and we had some people that did strength and conditioning and then got in the pool.

SPEAKER_04

Right. So let's break down all of those.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_04

First, um the the absolute best practice is in terms of allowing both biochemical biochemical signalings to come to their full fruition is to swim in the morning and then wait at least three to six hours and do strength training. And here's why. So swimming, you lit uh you elicit that AMPK molecule. Uh you want that to let it do its thing. It takes three to six hours for it to do its thing where it starts to uh it signals adaptation. MTOR, on the other hand, it lasts up to 18 hours in the body. So if you go strength train around 2 p.m., there's your 18 hours by the time you get to morning workout the next day.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

So the best thing to do is swim, get that AMPK flowing, strength training it in the afternoon, and 36 hours later you go swim again.

SPEAKER_00

And this is a consideration for um I guess, you know, it it uh as we discuss this, I'm just thinking about um schedules. I mean, is this an argument against what I just described, like swimming, a double practice, and strength training in the same day?

SPEAKER_04

Okay, well let's get to let's get to swimming and then immediately strength training. Let's say it's a Saturday and you gotta do back-to-back for some reason.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_04

There's one more factor we need to consider, and that is the neuromuscular patterning that is reorganized after a workout. What I'm talking about is technique. Improved technique means a reorganization of the neural patterns in the brain. If you swim and you've successfully corrected technique, and then you go do some other modality, whether it's strength training or just simply dry land, the brain remembers the last rep best. So if you have a really good workout technique is on point, and then you go do some deadlifts, well, the brain will remember the motor pattern of the deadlift more than the technique modifications you achieved in swimming. So you are again diminishing the neural patterns that you just had from swimming by going doing in something, by going and doing some other training modality. That said, studies have shown that VO2 max is increased with sports when you go do primary sport and then strength training. So not all is lost if you have to do that. If you have to do swimming or running or whatever, and then strength training, that is second best.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

First best again is to wait three to six hours between training modalities so you get the neural patterning adaptation as well as a molecular signaling adaptation.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Second best is do swimming and then some sort of conditioning. You'll miss out on the neural patterning from the swimming, but you will get an increase in some fitness because um the mTOR does not interfere with AMPK, but it does vice versa. So, which brings us to our third modality. If you weight train and then go swim, the weight training session is completely negated. Well, not completely, but it's definitely diminished.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

But you will get some neuromuscular adaptation from the swimming because you did it last. The brain will remember, oh, I just swam. Let's adapt to that instead of the weight training.

SPEAKER_00

Hmm. I'm really interested in this um this concept of the brain, and I'm gonna keep digressing. For everybody listening, we're gonna circle back um to this sort of categorization of best practices versus I guess worst practices, um just so that you'll you'll hear it again. But I think you bring up some really good points, and and specifically this one about the last rep, because I asked you earlier about you know, is this an argument against double practices? If you separate this um this whole even a little bit from the discussion of concurrent training, um if your brain remembers last sort of repetitions the best, um isn't that an argument against training to failure all the time?

SPEAKER_04

Is training to failure with poor technique, yes. And and I'm gonna do a USRPT plug here. Oh, here we go. That's why the failure point was introduced into USRPT so that the brain does not adapt to this uh complete breakdown of stroke mechanics from extreme fatigue during a set.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, I mean I guess it's uh I guess it's an argument for stopping right at the point of of true failure. Right. Um versus sort of continuing to struggle through because those those extra struggle repetitions are more likely to be harmful. Yeah, and get encoded.

SPEAKER_04

I mean exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Because people are robots and you just code them. No, I'm just oh my gosh, all jokes today. Um so so we talked uh that yeah, yes, ideally, um, as you said, you would uh swim and then wait three to six hours and you would have a strength training session. But I want to sort of get back uh specifically to this question. Um are you saying that you're going to negate uh a c a considerable amount of the benefits from that strength training session if you are then swimming again in that day?

SPEAKER_04

Correct. Correct. You because uh so weight training, mTOR. Swimming, AMPK, AMPK does interfere with mTOR, so you're negating a major uh a good amount of that weight training session because again, mTOR is the signaling molecule to uh for greater adaptation of strength and hypertrophy. And so if you go swim right after or golf or run, whatever, then you are negating mTOR because AMPK interferes with mTOR. So yes. You're wasting your time, you're just breaking the bike down.

SPEAKER_00

I'm thinking of my own, I'm thinking of my own past. I mean, actually, um when I was coaching in Denmark, um, the last time I was sort of uh in charge of a whole uh club structure and a a senior group or whatever of swimmers, um the time that we had with Dryland Space was directly before our afternoon practice. And uh I was pretty frustrated in terms of I felt like um we had a pretty good dry land uh program at even a little bit of a it was there were uh some um some limited sort of weights uh involved in that and we weren't seeing a lot of benefit from it.

SPEAKER_04

Well right. Because there's some interference there. Now the problem with uh doing um wait, wait, I was gonna I was gonna uh go back on Yeah. First first I'll comment on on what you just said there. What kind of dry land were you doing? Was it medball core, body core, uh plank stuff, or was it actual strength training?

SPEAKER_00

I would say mo way more of the former than the latter. We had a few um because uh I had quite a diverse group in terms of ages. So uh I had 14-year-olds all the way up to 25-year-old swimmers. Um so I would say if you were on the older range, you were more likely to be doing a significant amount of strength training in that time, like lit weight lifting, um, versus the younger group, uh basically no weight lifting.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Which we earlier you said you know most programs combine the two words strength and conditioning. It's a strength and conditioning program. They shouldn't. Those are two different biomolecular patterns. Pathways. They should not combine those two. So if you're doing medball and planks and body weight exercises before swimming, that is fine because that is eliciting AMPK, the aerobic signaling molecule. That's fine if you do that before and after you'll lose out on some of the uh neuromuscular reorganization if you do dry land afterwards. But before it's fine because you're not strength training. When you do true strength training, you have to get the type two muscle fibers going, which then signals mTOR to uh adapt to that program.

SPEAKER_00

Oh well that makes me that makes me feel better because Yeah, it should.

SPEAKER_04

Because dry land, dry land, which I consider metabolic conditioning, is really just a robe more aerobic condition.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I'm not saying it's bad, it's just uh that's fine if you do that before.

SPEAKER_00

So when I uh what what actually made me change that in my own coaching was uh changing over to doing USRPT, um and of course because Russell brought as the sixth commandment down from the mountain, no dry land, um I I went away from a uh a strength-based dry land program, and instead we did twenty to thirty minutes of basically like body movement um uh warm-up type stuff on land and then got into the water. And one of the things I actually noticed in doing this uh is we had a voluntary program where a dietitian uh visited our team and uh she came in and uh did body measurements, um, she did uh uh you know, weight, and then she did personalized nutrition plans. Um and I had several swimmers on my team who were basically chronically underweight, like very, very skinny, um, and continually had to be put on specialized diets to gain weight. And I actually had one female swimmer who uh was on a diet where she had to eat like an entire chocolate bar um after dinner every day in order to help her maintain weight.

SPEAKER_04

Just get extra calories.

SPEAKER_00

Just to just like, you know, so she wouldn't waste away. Um and uh in like a in like a three-month period after making this change, she put on something like seven pounds and it was muscle. After stopping strength training, basically. Right. And I was like, huh.

SPEAKER_04

Well, it's because she was doing too much. Her body could not keep up with the metabolic demand of both those modalities.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Okay. So best practice, you have this big break. If you're going to have the two right on top of each other, um you want it to be more sort of dry land conditioning. You you have you say med ball exercises, body weight exercises, um light dry land.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, light dry land. Let's make a difference, a differentiation between dry dry land with planks and med balls and strength training.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

So and and a lot of colleges, if if the college coach is listening, a lot of colleges are doing strength training.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right. Because they've got a strength and conditioning coach.

SPEAKER_04

Right, and then a lot of club coaches are doing just med ball work, sit up ex uh sit-ups and push-ups and stuff like that, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because uh in general they they they wouldn't have access to the same facilities and exactly.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So let's talk it to the club coaches real quick and just talk about dry land with med balls and and and body weight exercises.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You it's okay to do dry land um before the swimming. It's okay to do that as long as um you know you're not overloading them. Because it's the same biochemical pathway. Dry land and swimming is the same biochemical pathway. Plus, you get the neural encoding of the swimming afterwards. So you were doing it correctly if you had to. I would actually still wait, but yeah, you you could you were doing it correctly doing dry land and then swimming. Now, to do swimming and then dry land, I wouldn't advise. It's fine, it's the same pathway, but the brain is not going to encode for swimming as much because you're doing dry land modalities afterwards. So the brain will do neuromuscular patterning reorganization more for the dry land and less for the swimming, because it's the last thing you did for the day.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so so maybe a way to explain this that that comes all as I hear you say it, that comes all the way back to our initial definition of concurrent training. When you do swimming first, and then even if you're doing, as we described, sort of light dry land afterwards, you're actually treating dry land as the primary activity versus the cross-training activity. The brain is. The brain interprets it as such. Correct.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Uh in addition, you're usually tired after some workout, and so the rate of injury might go up uh during the dry land session if it's intense. So that's why that's not advised. Now let's go to college coaches or anyone doing a strength program. Let's recap that. Um when you do swimming first and then strength training, that's okay. Um you're gonna interfere with the neuromuscular reorganization.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Ideally, you're gonna wait three to six hours between swimming or any sports and strength training. What you don't want to do is strength training and then swimming. Yes, you'll get the neuromuscular organization, but you're gonna enter swimming fatigued from the strength training, number one. And number two, the AMPK from swimming is gonna interfere with the mTOR molecule that elicits the strength training. So just don't do that. That's probably the worst thing you could do. Unless you wait six hours.

SPEAKER_00

So you're so you're a bad person, is what you're saying. You're morally corrupt.

SPEAKER_04

No, no, no, no one here is bad.

SPEAKER_00

You're morally corrupt if you force swimmers to swim and then do a bunch of hang cleans.

SPEAKER_04

Uh hang cleans first and then swim.

SPEAKER_00

If you must, if you must. Uh hang clean. That's right. Um you you mentioned something about injury in there. Could you could you elaborate on that a little bit?

SPEAKER_04

Right. Well, usually during the swim practice, you're swimming to fatigue, some level of fatigue, whether it's extreme fatigue or even the exact fatigue you need for adaptation, you're fatigued. If you go immediately into the next modality and the body's already tired, uh you and you're experiencing neuromuscular fatigue, then yeah, that rate of injury, the research is clear, it goes up. Uh, and there's modified biomechanics according to the level of fatigue. I think uh uh Dr. John Mullen was writing about this uh that you have altered biomechanics, which leads to injury. So you gotta be really uh aware, a coach needs to be really aware of the athlete's level of fatigue. Not only during, or uh not only um during a whole training cycle, but day-to-day variations. So you gotta keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_00

And what should you be I mean, so I I hear you saying that, and I think uh as any coach listening to it, they're gonna go, yeah, I mean I I monitor for fatigue, but what do you think they should be looking for?

SPEAKER_04

Well, one, we now have the ability to actually monitor fatigue on a day-to-day basis, so both short and long term, that's heart rate variability train uh monitoring. Right. But there are a few cues uh that the athletes can show, um one being the speed of blinking. So when you're talking to an athlete and they blink slowly, that is a sign of neural fatigue. If they're blinking quickly and and they're you know uh talking at a normal pace, um then they're probably fine. But um, yeah, look for the speed of blinking. And I know um Charlie Cunningham would do a tap test. Yeah. Uh that's how quickly you could tap, that's also a sign of fatigue. And I know he would say, hey, if if their tap was too slow, he would say, Hey athlete, let's let's just either reduce this workload or just not do it at all. And so that I thought that was pretty good.

SPEAKER_00

So these are all um, as I understand them, these are all ways for monitoring basically neural fatigue. Correct. So if if you're neurally fatigued, um you're going to blink slowly. Correct.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You're going to blink slowly. Uh you're going to struggle to tap two fingers to each other quickly. Yep.

SPEAKER_04

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Um you may even speak slowly.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, the the rate of words per minute goes down.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe I'm just neurally exhausted. That's why I talk so slowly all the time.

SPEAKER_04

Well, you are a father, so that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. People listening to the podcast are like, I put Chris on one and a half times uh because he talked about it. Actually, someone said that to me the other day.

SPEAKER_04

Like, can you tell Chris to pick it up a little bit?

SPEAKER_00

Right. He's just talking very slowly and making his questions. Uh no, sorry. Uh uh, I'm sorry, this is just who I am. Um always talk slow.

SPEAKER_04

Uh but I do want to differentiate between yes, neural fatigue, which are the two examples you gave, and variability, right? Well, he variability actually measures the balance between sympathetic and parasympathetic tone or overall balance uh within the nervous system.

SPEAKER_00

And and and sympathetic tone is is like how when your wife's very frustrated and she comes home from work, how you respond to that, or what what do you mean sympathetic tone?

SPEAKER_04

Well, traditionally, sympathetic tone is your fight or flight, and parasympathetic is your rest and digest.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

And traditionally, you have a picture of a snake attacking you. Well, we're not cavemen anymore, so yes, when you have too much sympathetic saturation, a modern day version of that is you're overtrained, uh, your coach is yelling at you, you're doing poorly in grades, uh, your significant other is yelling at you. That's too much. And it's cumulative. The brain doesn't go, hey, I I trained too much, um, but I'm really relaxed in these other areas of my life. I can I can handle it. No, the brain takes a cumulative um summation of all stresses and then goes, uh, I'm I'm uh I'm too stressed or I'm I am ready for training.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I'm ready to take on the day.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So that's interesting. So so heart rate variability is sort of a different measure. So if actually um is it if somebody's trying to measure fatigue in a swimmer, would you suggest that they both do some of these sort of neural measures and a heart rate variability measure?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, because HRV is not concurrently. Well played, well said. Uh HRV is not great at acute monitoring, so day-to-day variations, it's awesome at long-term adaptation or uh maladaptation. Whereas the tap test or the rate of blinking, those are decent measurements of day-to-day fatigue or hour-to-hour fatigue.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

So HRV long-term, blinking, short term.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Um to circle all the way back for people, and I promised that we would do this and give them some sort of uh best practices, recommendations, just quickly from first to worst, uh run through some of these practices.

SPEAKER_04

So the college coach who's doing a strength program, heavy lifting, right? Heavy lifting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Swim first, wait six hours, strength train. You do that Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. And then Saturday you get a full, you know, ideally 36 hours to recover.

SPEAKER_00

And don't swim twice in the in the day that you strength train, correct.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So you do double swimming Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then double Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday of swim strength training.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, that's best. Second best is to swim and then immediately strength train. The downside of that is you get less neural encoding from swimming because the weight training will interfere with that. Okay, next best, or what don't what you don't want to do is strength train and then swim. You're going to negate the strength training because AMPK will interfere with mTOR, even though you get some neural encoding from the swimming doing that last. However, you're going to go into the swim fatigued.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

So if you have to do that for some reason, I would say go easy on the swim.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Like a real light swim. Okay, club coaches. Best practice is to do dry land for the 20 to 30 minutes and then swim.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

You get the same biochemical pathway as well as you get encoding from swimming, not dry land. Not advised is to do swimming and then dry land because of the neural encoding. It's the same pathway, but you're going to be fatigued from the swim going to the dry land, which increases injury rate. There you go.

SPEAKER_00

That's a whole rundown.

SPEAKER_04

That's a whole rundown. We could all if you want to post that too for people, feel free.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Yeah, maybe, maybe if I want to keep people informed, I'll uh I'll uh I'll put that there on the end.

SPEAKER_04

And they can always contact uh me as well if they want.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and if they want to know more about uh heart rate variability, uh that's another thing they can contact you about, right? You're doing that for uh several people.

SPEAKER_04

I'm working with um uh professional uh Olympic athletes as well as non-Olympic athletes. And that in fact I um I'm now going into other sports. I've uh I'm working with a fencer and monitoring their HRV to make sure they're um doing well with their training program.

SPEAKER_00

My brother-in-law was a fencer.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00

Nice. I don't think he took it very seriously. I hope he's not listening to the podcast. He might take that a little personally. I don't think he listens.

SPEAKER_04

You can edit that out.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we'll we'll we'll we'll edit that part out. I forgot to do a p politics tease too with you on the podcast. You're supposed to say that you were gonna give your opinion here on the Mueller report. Um on the Well, we're out of time.

SPEAKER_04

We're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00

But we ran out of time, so um uh check check uh check Trevor's blog for more on the Muller report. On the Mueller report. Right. And um uh he has some guesses about what's in those redactions that I think are really, really interesting, really deep insight, and I think you're gonna want to read them, obviously, if you're somebody listening to a podcast about dry land uh training and swimming. That's what you came to this podcast for. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I'm gonna be on Brian Williams' eleventh hour to talk about it too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, to maybe confront him about his uh his uh lack of ability to tell the truth about you know what he was doing and reporting the helicopter thing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's good to bring up, you know. I think it'll go over well. All right, Trevor. Oh, they're they they've already it's it's the interesting part. We're winding down. Trevor, thank you so much once again uh for nerding out with me, for explaining um uh some of this stuff, and uh most of all for making me feel better about my past transgressions. That's right.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks for having me, Chris.

SPEAKER_00

And that was Nerd Alert with Trevor Gray. For more great swimming conversations, go to Chris Dcoach.com. That's C-H-R-I-S-D. As indesantiscoach.com. Check out my blog from earlier this week. There's big big news out of Denmark, and I was tangentially uh involved in it, and uh I wrote a very long for me explainer for American audiences uh just as to what was going on. So look for that. Uh look next week for more podcasts, more blogs, and uh see you then.