Before we jump into this conversation, a quick word from the guide over a Twim Nerd. Are you looking for a pace clock that won't break the bank? The Swim Nerd pace clock is the most innovative and affordable digital pace clock that the world has ever seen. Their nine-inch tall green LEDs are specifically made for outdoor viewing and are visible from 100 meters away. Bluetooth enabled connects to your swim practice mobile app, allowing you to program any steps your heart desires. Take a minute, go to swimpractice.com and check out their amazing new pace clock. It truly is the world's best swimming pool pace clock. At swimpractice.com. One more time. Because I really want you to take a look at this. The pace clock is the most quintessential piece of training equipment for any swim team. Go to swimpractice.com and get yourself the best pace clock in the world. Today I'm really excited to have Danny Bostik on the podcast. Danny is somebody, and I'm sure you'll hear as we get through in our discussion that somebody I really look up to in the world of sport and uh a really powerful voice for reform. We had a really nice conversation. We talked uh about the MAAPP uh that she was actually featured a day before on an NPR piece, and I wanted to give her more time to sort of get in on some of the criticism that she had of it, and I think she's really fair about that. And then I also wanted to talk to her about you know this phenomenon that I've seen over and over again in the swimming world where clubs get a coach band and everybody is sort of expected to move on as if nothing happened. And I think there's a real misopportunity for addressing some of the culture within an organization that uh enables this behavior. So we have a really nice conversation about that in the back half. Um I hope you enjoy it. Hello and welcome to this anyway.
SPEAKER_00I'm great. Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we've got a lot to talk about, and and I just discussed with you offline that usually I probably spend the first half of any podcast just sort of getting into who uh somebody is. With with you, we we have actually really sort of two blocks of things uh uh I want to get to today. So uh what If people want to know more about you, I think a lot of people listen to my podcast probably already know who you are just based on your presence on on social media and stuff. But if people want to know more about you, just quickly direct them to a few sources um and then we'll get into our conversation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm on Twitter at Danny Bostick. If you want to f follow me there, um I'm very easy to find. My email address is danybostick at gmail.com. People reach out all the time. So if anyone needs to be in touch with me or wants to be, those are two quick ways of finding finding me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and you either can watch a uh a TED talk, um you know, just Google Danny Bostic TED Talk. Um it's pretty easy to find. I'll try to include a link to it uh when I put this this podcast up. Um and you've also been one of the reasons I want to talk to you is you've been very prominent. Um you're you're a former swimmer um and you've been very prominent uh as a voice talking about uh sexual abuse and abuse prevention in sports, and um also sort of a fierce critic of a lot of what uh what these organizations uh are are doing. And part of that comes out of your own experience. You were abused by your uh coach growing up. Um and that's one of the reasons actually I I consider you you a very valuable resource on this topic, and and one of the things that frustrates me about uh the whole conversation around it is the people who understand this problem the best, I don't feel are are being made um part of the solution. Yesterday you were uh featured uh among a number of voices on uh sorry, two days ago on MPR's um on point. And um one of those voices was from uh Safe Sport. What are uh uh before we before we get to some of the things she said on there, uh I I want to give you the chance, you know, Safe Sport has come out with this minor athlete abuse prevention policy, which I'm very annoyed has almost the same acronym as my master's degree. But um what when you when you saw this policy uh come out, what was your initial reaction?
SPEAKER_00I was completely stunned. Um I got the policy from USA Swimming, they sent it to me and said, Hey, do you want to take a look at this? Because this is what we're going to have to adopt. And I opened it up and could not believe what I saw. And one of the reasons I didn't look for it or find it sooner is because I assumed that the U.S. Center for Safe Sport would be putting out a quality policy. And in fact, in my meetings with USA Swimming, I just kept telling them, look, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. At a certain point, you will have really high quality materials from the US Center for Safe Sport, and you can just use those because up to the point where I saw this policy, my main issue had been with USA Swimming's abuse prevention materials. So I opened up this document and I am literally stunned. I I could not believe what was in the policy, and it was extremely disappointing because I put a lot of um hope in the US Center for Safe Sport, sort of standardizing the abuse prevention material, but in a really, really good way. And instead, what I saw was uh essentially it's it's not an abuse prevention policy, it's an abuse promotion policy.
SPEAKER_04And and why do you I mean uh I I I did a whole podcast by myself, 45 minutes, just sort of going um through this policy, and if people want to listen to that, they can hear sort of some of my my thoughts and and criticisms of it. But what why do you say it's an a a promotion policy?
SPEAKER_00I mean, essentially of all of the abuse I know that has happened in sports, including my own, um, has happened when coaches have one-on-one access to athletes, to minor athletes. And this policy allows for a lot of one-on-one access to minors. Um the only caveat is with parental permissions. So, for example, you can have um travel um with a minor alone, with an adult with parental permissions. You can have out-of-program context between a coach and a minor with parental permission. And out-of-program context, um, it says uh including, but not limited to one's home. Why would a minor need to go to their adult coach's home alone? That just shouldn't even be something a parent should be in a position to approve. In fact, I would argue that that request would be a huge red flag and something that should be reportable to the U.S. Center for Safe Sport. And the one I just saw, because this is sort of a gift that keeps on giving, I think I had seen this before and um was mostly focusing on the travel and out-of-program context, but a coach can share a hotel room with a minor athlete with parental permission. And that just should never, that just should not be an option. That should be completely off the table. So those are just a couple of the flaws in the policy in terms of what it allows, because what we know about child sexual abuse is that predators not only groom children, but they're grooming entire families and communities. Parents are not sending their children off with people they consider dangerous. In fact, they think these adults are very good for their children. Um it does not cross their minds that the person requesting time alone with their child is a predator. And it's pretty clear that the U.S. Center for Safe Sports is either unaware of that or just doesn't care about that reality. So I consider this policy an advertisement that this is an ideal, youth sports are an ideal hunting ground for children. This is just advertising. If you can groom the parent and pedophiles have that skill, you will get one-on-one access to the child. And of course, the abuse part is prevented first off by law, but you're not allowed to have um, you're not allowed to sexually abuse minor athletes. That is clear. But the access you need to be able to perpetrate that abuse is not a violation of the safe sport policy if you have permission from the parents. And these predators aren't kidnapping children. They get parental permission. They they parents know where their child is and they think they're with somebody that they can trust.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I uh I didn't totally pick up on that when I first read through the proposals, but now as I hear you say it and as I've thought about it over the last few weeks, I do think this actually this policy can create a ton of confusion um for parents who might otherwise actually um be think that a lot of this w one-to-one contact is inappropriate, but now there's a policy that says, Oh no, you just sign this permission form um and it's okay for us to do this. It actually may have created sort of more um space in in that way for uh abuse to take place. And that's pretty d that's pretty dangerous as I as I read it. And I think we've we I've done a couple of podcasts here just specifically on grooming, and I think it's absolutely uh you make a great point that you know parents are are getting groomed as well. And so to make you know a parental signature a as as to create that as some sort of barrier, um, I I don't think it's really a barrier. Uh because as you say, the parents uh of children that are being abused often uh put a lot of trust into into that abuser. And so um you know, y y you're sort of instead of stepping in and saying it's not appropriate for uh an adult to be spending time alone with uh a kid that is in their care or or you know, really I I don't it's hard for me to think of any coaching situations where you need to be alone with somebody adult or or uh or minor. Um and you know, you're sort of creating, as I say, creating even more confusion uh than there was prior to this. And I wonder why, and maybe um maybe you don't know, but I wonder why the US Center for Safe Sport isn't uh focused more on grooming in this instance.
SPEAKER_00I I have no idea. Um and the Center for Disease Control also has recommendations on abuse prevention policies for organizations that serve young people, and this policy is not in line with the Center for Disease Control policy. So there's many good, strong policies out there, um, plus the the Center for Disease Control that sort of you know lay out okay, here's some elements of a really strong abuse prevention policy, and this is this is not it. It misses the mark uh by a lot. In fact, um I believe it will actually endanger um children because it's giving parents bad information that that's not best practice by any stretch of the imagination. And I took the parent uh training today, I took it before, I've taken it maybe like three times. So I took the Safe Sport training again today, knowing that that we would um be uh speaking. And one of the quotes from the video is just chilling. They have some really strong experts on there, and one of them is a prosecutor, and she said if you follow the Safe Sport guidelines, you shouldn't ever have a problem. And I believe those videos were made before this policy came out, because the videos have been up for a while. Um but in any case, you have somebody on there who is an expert uh in child abuse prevention saying if you follow these policies, you won't have a problem. But it's pretty clear that this because the types of things these experts are talking about would would be good policies. Um essentially you have this um expert endorsing these nebulous guidelines. Well, what gap guidelines are you even talking about? Is it the Safe Sport Code? Um, because these policies are relatively new. So it's really, really dangerous to slap the Safe Sport brand on something that endangers children. Um and it's really dangerous to have these training videos that say, you know, if you follow these, you don't have to worry. Um so not only are they having bad policies, but they're giving parents a false sense of security where, hey, we have these really bad policies, and if you follow them or you know your team is, then you're not gonna have to worry. And they're giving parents a false sense of security. Um and it's just setting children up for a really, really bad situation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I think too, I got caught up, you know, since I'm sort of still, as I say sometimes on this podcast, in the church, that is, I still um interact a lot with other swim coaches. I actually got caught up with in the sort of coach, general coach response, which was very negative in the in the opposite direction to these guidelines. Um basically like this is too much uh to ask, and this is going to uh make it too hard for us to do our jobs. Um a lot of which I I I do think is ridiculous. The the the the area where I have empathy for coaches is just generally, I think they're um a a stressed out, unhappy group, and to the extent that this creates um uh sort of more hoops for them to jump through, and it's not clear that it's you know for people um that it's it's going to probably create more work for many, many swim coaches who have no impulse to abuse children while not impeding uh uh coaches who want to abuse children. And so um to that extent I can understand some of that frustration. Um, there's a whole another aspect of this with uh college swim coaches where um you have minors that are visiting colleges and they need to be picked up from the airport. I had a talk with a coach about this uh yesterday. But I think if a lot of those coaches take a step back, like they don't actually want to be in a position of responsibility or they don't really like I I got a call from um one coach because just a month before this the NCAA changed around the all the recruiting uh dates for uh Division I college swimming such that uh juniors were now allowed to make uh college visits, and one coach just told me point blank, I I don't want to pick a 16-year-old up from the airport and bring them to my college campus. And so I think if they take a step back and go, actually, this policy might um i if if properly enforced um might take uh might take some of that out of my hands. Uh they might feel more positive about this. Um one aspect of this that I I haven't seen you discuss, so I'm interested to get your take on it. I I have uh this was a big point of mine from when I did the podcast on myself is um what do you think about the enforcement of this policy? Because I as I've seen on there, that was probably even more nebulous than the policies themselves. Um, you're supposed to police it within your own club, and then maybe um something would go to an LSE. I heard from somebody who works as a safe sport chair in the LSE, they were completely unprepared uh to uh uh uh receive any kind of complaint in this regard. And then, you know, if if you really needed to, you could escalate it to the U.S. Center for Safe Sport. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_00It's a I mean, overall it's a really sloppy policy. And just circling back a little bit to some of the hoops and things, the communication guidelines are extra are ill-conceived. I read them and I'm just thinking this is unnecessarily complicated. There's so many better solutions in 2019 than what they've proposed. So I think that a lot of um even you know what you're mentioning about monitoring and accountability, what you have here is not an abuse prevention policy. It's an odd amalgam of rules, and there's really no overarching theme. And one thing that's missing is just the definition of the coach-athlete relationship. And the video mentions it, uh, the Safe Sports Parent Training video, but never defines it. So you have a talk of a sports relationship or coach-athlete relationship, and that's never defined because ideally the policy defines what a coach is so clearly, and I know that the um abuse prevention policy from Safe Sports covers other adults, but somewhere it needs to be really clear what you can expect from your coach because this needs to be more than a list of prohibitions. There has to be some sort of overarching framework that's supporting it. Um, coaches should be are people who support a child and you know, sometimes an adult's athletic development helps them reach their goals related to sport. So anything outside of that really should should be you know, give people a little bit of pause. Are you giving somebody personal advice about a relationship? Are you talking to them as if they're your friend? Are you getting your social needs met, your social needs met from your athletes? That's a red flag. So I think you know, when you're looking at monitoring, yeah, this is a long list of don't do this and don't do that. And if you're gonna communicate, here are many things you need to do. Um instead of and it and it fails to equip stakeholders, coaches, parents, uh, team managers, nobody here is given a definition of an appropriate um coach athlete or adult athlete relationship. So I think if you had a policy similar to what they have in education, it would be easier to monitor because everybody would know what to expect. So instead of looking out for infractions, you would have a sense that this is this is what a coach does, this is appropriate behavior for a coach, this is a strong, constructive, edifying coach-athlete relationship versus what we see over here. Because you're never gonna get a comprehensive list of all the things you have to avoid. So I agree with you that certain aspects of the policy are gonna make life hard for coaches with very little benefit to athletes. And I also think that the policy as a whole is very sloppy and haphazard. And I think that's maybe what's behind your question in terms of how are we going to enforce this, because you're just having a list of things to watch out for versus a clear vision of what a coach, who what a coach is, like what is a coach?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, uh that's a really good point. Um, and I think something that uh I would love to see more of too. You know, we have both have to have a sense of what are these sort of boundaries um for what should absolutely not be allowed, but at the same time, what you know, what's a positive model of of what a coach is? And um I I want to talk about the NPR piece, but I I think uh you make a really good point. Uh people often ask me um where to go in terms of looking for models of best practices, and I think that a lot of um uh uh K through 12 school systems have sort of much uh better leadership around these. Not all, obviously. Um your results may vary with with uh a school, but in in general uh educational environment, um, you know, I even ask people sometimes to think of like, okay, for every um for every behavior you're judging of your swim coach, you know, ask if you would um think that behavior was inappropriate coming from your child's history teacher, you know, or your child's math teacher. And um that's sort of a real eye-opener for people because they go, oh wow, I would think that was totally out of line if my you know if my my history teacher screamed at, for instance, not even like you know, uh a private abuse behavior, but if my history teacher screamed at my child in the middle of class, I would go, that's an okay, right? Um but somehow we tolerate that because it's sports. Um that part of it is crazy. Okay, back to the MPR um Pete. So I wanted to give you a chance to respond because um there were some really good uh voices on there. Uh you you were featured, um, Nancy Hogshead Makar, who's been on here before, um uh Sarah Klein, um, and then uh Katie Hanna from the US Center for Safe Sport. But the conversation ended up being a little bit Disjointed. And I know you wanted to specifically push back on some of the misinformation you saw coming out of the Katie Hannah from the U.S. Center from State Board in that interview. What were some of the things that you heard that just didn't seem right to you?
SPEAKER_00Well, several times she mentioned limiting one-on-one access, which is good. That's what they're supposed to do, but the policy doesn't do that because you could even have an adult coach sleeping in a child's hotel room if the parent agrees. And maybe the parent's worried about the child being in a hotel room alone, like that's going to be scary. Again, parents aren't going into this thinking that they're agreeing for their child to be harmed. So that was something that she completely ignored and was what I thought was going to be a cornerstone of the NPR piece is that you have this major, major, major flaw in your policy that you're calling safe sport minor abuse prevention policies. And they're holding themselves out there as experts in abuse prevention when their policy doesn't even meet the basic recommendations of the Center for Disease Control. Second thing she did that was just completely it actually made me ill, is she said, I actually wrote the quote down, but but she mentioned she's talking about, she's saying these policies could you know apply to adults who could provide a safe, stable, nurturing relationship with a child, particularly kids who may have experienced violence or victimization before coming to sports programs. Well, that's all the more reason to have much, much stronger policies.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're the most vulnerable. And I mean, research-wise, they are more susceptible to abuse. Um, perpetrators prey on people who've had histories of violence or other trauma and whose parents might not be as involved. So this is already a high-risk situation for people coming from extremely stable homes who have a lot of privilege. But when she mentioned people who have are children who have difficult backgrounds and saying that these policies are good for them because these relationships could be helping them out, um, that's completely that's completely inappropriate. Um, and that is the reason this policy needs to be even stronger, because you do have um athletes who don't have strong parental support at home, and you know th those kids deserve to be protected, and they should be protected at the same standard as other youth-serving organizations. Otherwise, this is not going to be a safe environment for them. So I was a little bit disturbed that she was using underprivileged children as a human shield to defend an unacceptable policy. Um, because honestly, this is a predator's dream to be able to go start coaching and then know that with the signature of a parent, you can have alone time with any child, including in a hotel room.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I I heard that in the the piece as well. And I uh uh related to that, there was uh at some point I think she made a point about you know that there could be a lack of opportunity for some kids, like if if a coach couldn't transport them to practice or something, that now that they couldn't be involved in a sport, and that that was feedback they had heard from parents.
SPEAKER_00Um and that's that's this false, that's just sort of this false alternative. It's like, oh, okay, either coaches can drive children alone or kids aren't going to be able to participate. But as a teacher, I have a I run a small club, um junior classical league, and we have a small delegation. So if we were to travel, I would probably need to pool resources with a neighboring district. Um and that was a suggestion I had heard um from several people heavily involved in JCL and you know different activity directors. I mean, there's ways that two small clubs could pool resources in order to have too deep leadership and to be able to comply with the rest of the policy. Um, you know, also transportation might need to be a factor when you choose your club because if it's a very small club and there aren't opportunities for carpooling, that might need to be a factor for a parent or guardian to consider when they're choosing the club, you know, to begin with, or that might be some sort of service that's worthwhile for a club to offer so that they can you know retain their customers and you know have new children uh start on their team for whom transportation you know might be an issue. But there's many other solutions to the transportation problem. And that was another thing I noticed. She was sort of just creating these sort of false alternatives. Well, if we don't do this, then how are kids going to get to practice? Well, that's where you define your role of coach. Your coach is not an Uber driver. That's not what your coach does. There's other, and I know there's other adults affiliated with the program that this would cover, but that's another issue when you're trying to have a one-size-fits-all policy where, for example, an official that you see maybe two times a year doesn't have the opportunity to groom you, whereas your coach that you're developing a relationship with over a period of years, even decades, um, would be able to establish that trust and you know infiltrate your life in a way that he or she could leverage for harm. So I I was not impressed with her responses at all, and some I considered just outright um offensive. I think we could all agree that a coach should not be sleeping in a child's hotel room, or that a coach should not even be asking to hang out with a child alone outside of a program activity. I mean, they shouldn't even these should be non-starters. It should be, oh wow, wow, we don't know how that made it in. Let's go take another look at this. I mean, essentially they're defending the indefensible.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, uh I I'm gonna ask you maybe to suppose a little bit here, and you can you can decline the opportunity if you want, but uh, how do you think they came up with this policy? Because I'm I was actually I didn't know that um you had been in conversations with USA swimming. You um ha seem to have mastered uh better being critical and then having them actually listen to you than me. Um but uh I I I can gather you haven't been uh involved uh with with the creation of these policies, and I'm just wondering what what you how do you think they came up with these?
SPEAKER_00I I honestly I I don't I don't know. And to USA Swimming's credit, I mean they have they have uh left certain parts of this out of their policy. So I believe USA swimming did not include the out-of-program contact in their policy. So um I mean they've they've sort of taken a hard look at it and they've tried to um I guess do the best they can with what Safe Sport has given them. But I I really don't know. I mean, I know in the case of USA swimming, a lot of the material just reflected ineptitude um and lack of understanding. But with the kinds of people who've been involved in with Safe Sport, I know they've heard from from experts. I know that for fact. So I'm not quite sure how we ended up with this kind of policy. It reads more like a liability management policy than an abuse prevention policy. And I'm not saying that flippantly. I mean, I look at a lot of abuse prevention policies. This doesn't brief or read like one. So part of me is just wondering, oh, you get the parent signature and then you won't be sued, which which really is disgusting, especially considering um, you know, the legacy of youth sports in terms of child sexual abuse. There's lots of people out there who joined a sports team to be healthy and ended up with essentially life-ruining trauma. Um, and for all the talk of survivor, oh, you know, we identify survivors instead of victims. I mean, survivor, that word in a way really erases the lifelong harm that child sexual abuse um inflicts on a that that pedophiles inflict on on their victims. So I think that they really do have a responsibility to get this right. Um and they've they've had long enough. Safe Sport has been around, you know, for a couple of years now, but this problem has been around for um for decades. Um so it it's really is time for them to take this seriously and stop doing spin like they did on NPR on earlier this week and really put their energy and effort into getting a um effective abuse prevention policy because children deserve it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they do. Absolutely. Um okay, well, so I think that sort of uh to put a bow on the NPR stuff and maybe transition into the other thing I I wanted to um talk to you about. Uh we had some conversation offline um specifically about a trend that I mean I I can only speak to it in in swimming. Um I I can assume that it probably happens in other sports as well, but uh swimming is the one that I really uh follow. And it sort of goes into um the sort of broader uh sort of what we're talking about here is is having more than policies, having more than um just uh banning a coach who you've uh found to have committed an infraction. Um and that is you know uh clubs, and and you have some experience with this yourself, where uh you know uh a outside entity USA swimming or say sport has come in and banned the coach. Maybe there's been uh legal repercussions for the coach, but it's sort of like one day the coach is there, the next day the coach is removed, and everybody just moves on as if um nothing has happened, right? Or that um now we've fixed the problem, we got rid of the bad person, and um now everything's good. And um I think that a lot of people who have looked at this a little bit closer know that that's not how um abusers work within systems, that uh within any system there are people who to varying degrees, maybe some of them unknowing, but some of them who uh probably should know uh who enable um that abuse. Um I I I I I know we had a little conversation online, you don't want to get uh uh too uh uh too specific with your own situation in regards to this, but maybe speak more generally um about how uh within an organization um other people might uh uh take action that enables an abuser to flourish and then what um what reaction these organizations should have beyond just sort of the the coach disappearing uh the next day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's something I've spoken to USA Swimming about, and they seem interested, although it does, it legitimately seems like it's something complicated that they would need to really think about and make a policy that that's tenable and fair. But a huge problem with um I mean I know for sure with USA swimming and and probably also you know the US Center for Safe Sport is they can discipline individuals. But as far as I know, at least I know for sure in USA swimming, and I'd be interested to know if there's other NGBs that have a policy with this, but you're not looking at systems level issues. So you're looking at this is a bad person on an otherwise fine team, let's remove the bad person. Um but in my case, I mean I can just give a little overview because it's pretty shocking. My team was started by my perpetrator so that he would have access to me. Because his uh he coached at the Y where there was lifeguards, uh a lot of supervision. Um he ended up starting a team with just me and one other athlete renting pool space where there was zero supervision at all. So his team was created really to have access to me, and that's when my abuse um started. And you know, we fast forward, um, that team started, I believe, around 1985 or 86, and then we fast forward to 2014, um, where I reported um my perpetrator, he's in prison now. Um he was banned. But what happened was um he signed his team over to somebody else who immediately began to um slander me. And I was even doxxed in a comment section of a Washington Post article, and some of the information clearly came from the team. It was things about my family, um, just just things about me that only that team would have known. Um so it was really, really disturbing that the reaction to me reporting, which did something good for the community because it removed a pedophile from having access to children, it was disturbing to me that the reaction to that was to damage my reputation by saying I was looking for a scapegoat for my midlife life crisis. I mean, essentially the team's way of retaining athletes was to discredit me after my perpetrator had been charged. Um, and the the person who had the team at my perpetrator's sentencing when he had already pleaded guilty to his crimes called him a man of impeccable character. So the legacy of that team is that it was started in order to sexually abuse children. And now its current owner and manager thinks that a pedophile, a confessed pedophile, um, is a man of impeccable character. And to me that's just a really huge problem. And then uh just as a side note, I w I was reading um a USA swimming newsletter and saw that that team had been uh the team uh received some safe sport recognition. So yeah, so I mean they really need policies in place where safe sport recognition isn't just paperwork. Um and they really need some policies and procedures in place to address systemic issues because um one thing that happens pretty much in all sectors when organizations involved, you've seen it you know with churches, um obviously in sports, sometimes you see it with schools, is you know, people in that community view the victim as an adversary because they're a threat to something they really like and appreciate. So I come forward not only am I you know distressed because of my trauma, but now because I've reported somebody who's objectively a predator. I mean, this isn't up for debate, he's in prison. Right. Um because I've done that, now I'm the bad guy because I'm making something that people love look bad. Um, and that's something that discourages reporting, that's something that just perpetuates a culture that's just not conducive to athlete safety, because what you're saying is it's not safe to report here. Look what we did to her, we'll do the same thing to you. Um friends of the team and people on the in-crowd don't report, they keep up appearances. And uh that's something I think um sports in general, not just USA swimming, really needs to look at because if somebody's gone on abusing for that long, you know, they they need a system of support to be able to get away with that. Um I'm not saying people knew necessarily and chose not to report, although, of course, with Larry Nassar and many other situations, we have seen that exact phenomenon. But you know, it sort of takes a little community of support for them to get away with it. And I think that um youth sports, the US Olympic movement, um USA swimming specifically, would be well served to take a look, take a look at that. Um, because when you file, let's say, a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights at the Department of Education, if they open an investigation, it's not into one person. They're looking at the culture of the school district in general. So I think they need to move away from, I mean, they need to continue um banning coaches and other adults who are dangerous. But I think in terms of solutions moving forward, they need to stop just looking at this as some whack-a-mole approach, get their abuse prevention policies in order, but then also have some type of sanction or system where teams that enable perpetrators face some type of consequence. I mean, even if it's sort of like a free market system where somebody can Google a team name and see the number of complaints. Right. Um, I mean, there's a couple different solutions where it doesn't need to be, oh, you can't be a USA swimming team anymore. Um, certainly that's I think that should be on the table. But I think there's a variety, just like I can go, you can look up schools that are under investigation from the Office of Civil Rights to see if they violated um, you know, policies related to special education or Title IX. I mean, something like that might work. I don't have a solution, but I definitely agree that that typically it's not a perpetrator operating in a in a vacuum in an otherwise very healthy situation. There tends to be um a culture that's conducive to that type of um predator, and if you're not fixing that, then you're just um putting a band-aid on the situation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean it and I've seen um this pattern repeat itself over and over and over again. Um I had uh somebody that I uh formerly coach who uh reported her coach. Um her coach was uh subject to a uh criminal judgment. She was absolutely annihilated by people that remained on the team. And uh, you know, the the whole the team actually, since it was owned by the coach, disappeared for some time but has since resurfaced with all the same people. And I know she was really, really concerned um uh by that development because uh I think you know she she has good reason to believe that it's still um a culture that could be dangerous uh for the people that are there. Um one of the things I I referenced to you um offline is I I was disturbed and I'm not I I want to be clear before I say this, I'm not casting uh aspersions uh on any of these clubs to say that there's actively abuse going on. I just simply think there should be pressure on them to address this more than they have. Um I I was disturbed to see Curl Burke Swim Club simply drop the curl name, change to Nation's Capital Aquatic Club, um, and now they're the most celebrated club in USA swimming. And you um, if you were, you know, a brand new someone brand new coming into the sport of swimming, you would have no idea um that that was a legacy. Instead, I think they actually had an opportunity to be like, look, uh this happened here um and we're going to take a leadership role in um making sure it doesn't happen again. Rather than sort of a a whitewashing, a pretending of this didn't happen. I I um in the same way, uh actually listening to your story, very similar situation out at King Aquatic Club. You know, uh when Sean Hutcheson got banned, it was a former business partner of his. Um somebody that got into business with him after he was uh whatever happened to him in 2010, uh shadow banning or whatever, I think we're gonna find out eventually that that got him off of the pool deck. This is somebody that went into business with him after that um purchased the team. Right. And um that's concerning to me. I had some questions for um um and I wrote this and uh and I think he's very angry at me still, and I might see him as August, I'll let's see how it goes. Um but that Michael Brooks, who was the head coach of King Aquatic Club at that time, you know, he had been pretty public in social media and stuff, sort of courting uh a relationship with uh Sean Hutchison. And I think there were plenty of red flags in 2010 around Sean Hutchison. So I simply just wanted Michael Brooks to say, like, hey, um what did you think? You know, sort of getting involved with this guy, did you think everything was cool? Because that might be a learning opportunity even for everybody else to say, okay, here's how I missed it. Um you know, you you guys should watch out. But instead there was sort of a silence. Um and I don't think that necessarily um serves uh serves all people. So those are some prominent examples, but as I've seen it uh over and over again where um there is this there's this missed opportunity, there's an annihilation um of a victim that has uh a huge killing effect. One of the other things um I think you and I have discussed on Twitter is um the sort of anonymous uh uh comment sections for all of this stuff. Um I think there needs to be much more moderation of that. I have not succeeded, I've heard from many people that have still not succeeded in prevailing on swim swam that they should perhaps lock lock comments on any sort of um abuse-related news story. Um have you uh gotten any any traction um as far as I know you s mentioned something about USA swimming, but have you got any traction on any other organizations on prevailing um on them on this particular issue?
SPEAKER_00Um no probably. Probably, well, I mean, in um to some extent in in in other fields, but I think one of the problems with sport is that you have just such intense loyalty where there's there's certain almost cult-like dynamics and everybody's instinct is you know just to defend the organization. And I I think that that's just something that's really common, and it would be good to sort of move in the direction of handling that because really I think you've mentioned this before. Coaches shouldn't have to lump themselves into predat with in with predators. I mean, really the policy should be something where everybody, including good coaches, they should all read the policy and say, this makes a lot of sense, because it's not in anyone's interest for pedophiles to be in the field. I mean, there has to be some stigma if you're saying, you know, let's say you're gymnastics coach, um, even closer to the time of the Larry Massar story. I mean, that's an ongoing story, but I mean, there has to be some shame in that or just just a little sheepishness. I mean, this coaching is a noble profession and it should be defined so people know what they can expect from their coach. But I mean, I think part of elevating coaching to a profession is establishing that, but then also having guidelines where everybody's really clear about the purpose of coaching and the role sport plays in our society and the way it can benefit kids and how coaches really are playing such a key part in that. And that role doesn't include going to the movies and giving relationship advice and functioning as a friend or fake counselor. So I think that you know what we're talking about here are just some pretty significant um cultural changes. But like in the case of my perpetrator, there were four other teams at his pool. So I can't believe the other three teams would want to defend him and say, oh no, these policies aren't gonna be good. They would probably look at really strong policies and say, okay, we'd have one less competitor here because this guy has such poor boundaries, he's gonna end up out of USA swimming. So, especially in areas you know with a lot of population density, you have several teams practicing even at the same facility. And you you know, really the teams that are promoting you know really, really strong policies in terms of boundaries and professional identity, those teams should be rewarded. They shouldn't have a competitor on the other end of the pool who's you know constantly getting the waiver to hang out with kids alone. I mean, that that would have to be disturbing to some extent. So I think you know, part of where these policies go wrong is they're sort of like solidifying the profession of coaching against these policies where I think the majority of the profession would rally around policies that would get rid of people who are disgraced to what to what swim coaching should be.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that's actually a really important um uh part of this and definitely a motivating factor for me. I mean, I I I I I'm proud to be a swim coach, but when I see uh what's gone on in my own profession, I think um this is shameful. And um, you know, I think uh the way I see a lot of coaches uh act out or sort of get upset about some of these policies and some of the changes, I think is out of of shame. Um and if we could convince them to direct some of that shame towards the people who are who are actually making um who are actually causing problems versus uh sort of a a rooting out of those uh perpetrators, it would be really helpful. Um if I can figure that out, uh I'll get started on it tomorrow. Um but it's uh it's it's a huge factor. You mentioned you know, you've seen in other organizations and you you you referenced, I mean you're you're a high school teacher. Um where have you seen uh organizations work sort of more proactively and sort of less defensively, and what what could we learn from some of those models?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think education's probably the ideal um model for this. I mean, again, um, you know, perpetrators are going to have access to kids and you know, we're not gonna be able to get rid of all abuse. But if a perpetrator is able to perpetrate, it should be in spite of the very best policies, not because of bad policies. So, you know, once you have a policy too, there's the issue of training. So there's some great policies I've read where I'm even surprised like, I did not know this organization had such great abuse prevention policies where I would be in a position to need to know about the policies and haven't. Um but I you know in education is just really clearly defined what teachers are and and what their role is in a child's life. So um if if I'm getting to the point where I'm giving advice to a student that doesn't relate to their academic development, then I've crossed the boundary. Now, a lot can fit into that because you know, if a student comes in and they're really upset about something and they can't concentrate on their learning, I might need to talk to them a little bit to get them calmed down or at least to figure out the nature of the problem so I can refer them to somebody who can help them. Because in schools, you know, we also have school counselors. So I think one thing I've noticed about um boundary policies that are really strong. Um I was a mental health counselor for a little bit. My role was really, really clear. Um, you know, we have very strong guidelines in terms of social media contact, the nature of our conversations with clients, um, dual relationships. Like the I mean, I would warn clients that if I saw them out in the community, I wasn't going to say hello because our relationship, you know, is they deserve um privacy and confidentiality. So I wouldn't want to out them as somebody who's getting counseling because um people know me as a counselor. So I mean, we we have these conversations and it's it's always very, very clear, you know, in counseling what a counselor's role is. In education, you don't explicitly have these conversations because if you establish good boundaries from day one, you're not gonna have students coming into your classroom trying to be your friend because you're setting a tone that I'm a professional, I'm here to teach you, I teach Latin, I'm here to teach you Latin, you're here to learn Latin, and we're gonna respect each other and be friendly and collegial, but I'm not a friend. And I don't explicitly state I'm not a friend. My actions and behavior convey that um because it's really clear what a teacher is and what their role is. Um and there are teachers who act like friends, but you know, that you know, that's kind of they're kind of outliers. It's sort of like, oh, okay, that that's that's a little that that's a little weird. Um but I I think what's really missing from the conversation about abuse prevention and boundaries in sports is that I mean in Safe Sport has mentioned in a coach-athlete relationship at several different points in their trainings and and their um um their code. Um they mention sport relationship, but they don't they don't define it. Um they talk about the power and trust in the relationship, but they don't talk about how what the power and trust should be used for. Um because it can include a lot of things. But one issue I had with USA swimming is they had a Safe Sport Monday lesson where I guess I guess an athlete's upset or something, and and Safe Sports says, Um, again, this is USA swimming safe sport, and it's since been taken down. But Safe Sport says you can talk to your coach about anything. He's a mentor. Well, is he a mentor? Should you talk to him about anything?
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00Um I would strongly disagree with that, but in in the absence of a clear vision for the profession of coaching, you have NGBs and different entities just kind of winging it and creating content or conveying messages that um could normalize grooming and you know lead to abuse. So one thing I'd really like to see, and and I've mentioned this not every time I talk to USA swimming, but I mean I really think they have a unique opportunity. They could be on the forefront of this to really define what a coach is, not just what the coach isn't supposed to do, but what what is the coach's goal? Um, you know, what what do they need to have in mind in terms of the well-being of their athletes and and their vocation? What is a common denominator between all coaches? And there's going to be left and right limits and people are gonna be interacting in different ways, but I mean there needs to be some sort of idea and purpose to the profess the profession versus just don't do these things, don't communicate between these hours. Copy somebody on all your communications. I mean, um you know you need a communications policy, but in the absence of clearly defined roles, um, you know, you're you're really just left with this list of prohibitions instead of a clear vision of what the coach-athlete relationship should be.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think uh you know, one of the things I hear in this is because I I I can feel the the uh criticism uh coming from coaches, and again I'm I'm interpreting it empathetically where they go, oh, so now I you know you you want me to observe boundaries. Now I can't now I can't help a kid who's you know really having a tough day or whatever. No, you should, as you said, like you know, in your classroom, as a coach, you should have a really clear idea of if a kid comes to you with a really serious problem, who are you going to like engage to help that problem versus like you have to be the mental health counselor for a kid. That's a ridiculous expectation to put on the coach. It um, as you said, could also normalize uh grooming. And but instead, a lot of coaches are left grasping like, I don't know what to do in that situation. And I and I feel a responsibility to do something. And to the extent so that we can define so people know, okay, here's my role I can play in sort of a chain of people who might help a child. Um that would be really, really helpful, and I think uh the most sort of upcoming proactive step there could be. Um I had a college coach who posed this question to me. She came to a uh uh training that I gave a few weeks ago, a positive psychology training. She said, you know, my athletic director wants to have um something in our handbook about um uh a sort of uh a mental health policy, what do you think that should look like? And I was like, first of all, I I I have no idea. I'm not the right person to write it. That's not my my training, but I think the the um the initiative is awesome. And uh there absolutely should be something like that, so that um if I'm an athlete, if I'm a coach, if I'm um a you know, uh uh school advisor involved with an athletic team up to the mental health professionals on campus, you know, it's very clearly defined what each person can sh should do um in that situation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and USA Wrestling, I I couldn't believe it when I read it, and I actually got in touch um with the head of USA Wrestling to make sure it understood it, but they actually provide, it's much smaller NGB, but they actually are offering um to cover the cost of any counseling related to trauma, any kind of trauma. So, but I mean what what a great initiative because then it frees the coaches up where not only you know that they're saying, hey, well, this is a really overwhelming problem, I don't know what to do. Um, and way worse than than not knowing what to do is trying to handle it when you're not trained. But, you know, I mean, I think that's where here's what you are, and you know, just and then anything outside of that, ideally, you'd have resources and understand sort of your your piece of the puzzle because you're not the entire puzzle. And what oftentimes happens is you know, you see coaches and teachers do it too, but I mean in coaching, you see a lot of um, you know, coaches giving advice about things that aren't even in their area of expertise. So they might have excellent advice about strength training, nutrition, injury prevention, trade-offs, when should I taper? You know, what what kind of meet should I go to? Um, should I do division three versus division one? I mean, there's tons of advice that they would be able to give. But when you're getting right down, you know, into oh, I I'm coming to you as my mentor and let me tell you about this problem with a friendship, what should I do? The gross answer is, you know, it it sounds like you're having a hard time with your friend. Right. And, you know, have you, you know, I know you're good friends with so-and-so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So but um, you know, just understanding your role and knowing, you know, how to kind of, you know, politely say, I know you're really great friends with with this person on the team that she might be a great one to get advice from because I know she's, you know, she goes to uh middle school too, and you know, just just sort of um you know, maintaining the boundaries also not just in terms of not violating the law, but also in terms of you know preserving um you know having respect for the profession. So I I think that I mean I hope USA swimming does that because I think it could be interesting, you know, for other NGBs as well. And I think it's uh a missing piece in terms of the abuse prevention policies. Because like you mentioned before, if your kid's teacher calls and says, Can I take your son to the movies after school alone? You wouldn't just say no, you'd probably also call the school. That's how odd that would be. Exactly. Um, but because we haven't defined the profession of coaching and it's it's sort of been this free-for-all, something like that, yeah, sure, here. I I um yeah, what form do I need to sign? You know, I mean, that there shouldn't even be a thing. Um so I'm hoping that the U.S. Center for Safe Sport will take a hard look at their policies. I mean, what we had on the NPR hour was a bunch of spin. Um, these policies are objectively inadequate. And you know, I also hope that NGBs like USA Swimming, I mean, unfortunately, where there's this huge deficit, there's an opportunity for NGBs to step up and and they could be the model. They could say, hey, you know, we found these policies inadequate, and here's what we've done to make our sport even safer. And um I unfortunately, if Safe Sport doesn't modify their policies, that's something the NGBs are gonna have to do. Whereas I'd hope for the opposite, like Safe Sport's gonna come in and give you this great material. It was a little sad um to see how how far off the mark their material is.
SPEAKER_04Um, Danny, you have been uh incredibly helpful and informative, and um uh it's been a pleasure talking with you and getting your perspective on all of this, and uh wish you a good end of the year here as you uh wrap up the academic year.
SPEAKER_00Well, thanks so much. Uh it was great talking to you, and um you know I appreciate what you do for the sport because I think it's gonna make it safer for everybody.
SPEAKER_04Thanks.
SPEAKER_01Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_04Thanks so much to Danny for uh helping me uh get through all of that and for sharing so much valuable information from board. Great swimming conversations. Go to Chris DeSantis Coaching. That's okay, www.chrisdcoach.com. I don't know why I gave the full www. this time, but you know, just roll with me. Um I have a blog from earlier in the week about a meme that I really don't like. So check for that and check back here for more podcasts, blogs, and all of that kind of stuff, and see if it's a lot of people.