Before we jump into this conversation, a quick word and the guys over at Swim Nerd. Are you looking for a pace o'clock that won't break the bank? How about one that every swimmer can see? The swim nerd pace clock is the most innovative and affordable digital pace clock that the world has ever seen. Their nine-inch-tall green LEDs are specifically made for outdoor viewing and are visible from a hundred meters away. Bluetooth enabled and connects to your swim practice mobile app, allowing you to program any set that your heart desires. Take a minute and go to swimpractice.com and check out their amazing new pace clock. It truly is the world's best swimming pool pace clock. That's swimpractice.com. One more time because I really want you to take a look at this. Go to swimpractice.com and get yourself a best haze clock in the world. Today on the swim brief, I am joined by Abby Fish. Abby is a coach and she's an entrepreneur. And we talk about uh how she got to do a profession that uh both 14-year-old Chris and 14-year-old Abby uh could not uh envision existing. And uh stick through to the end because we'll uh get to a couple of technique topics she does coach technique for a living. So um I hope you enjoy it and have a great Thanksgiving. Hello and welcome to Swimming Founder and Coach at uh Swim Like a Fish, Abby Fish. How are you? I'm good, how are you, Chris? I um well we were both just discussing how we're like a little bit under the weather, but we're gonna we're gonna plow through for the people. We're gonna deliver a quality podcast um despite all of that. Um and uh you and I were just discussing a little bit uh before we started recording um uh your swimming life growing up, and I always like to start with people um just sort of understanding who they were as a swimmer a little bit. So before we get into talking about some like a fish and all the stuff you're doing now, um what do you what do you think is important for people to know about uh you growing up as a swimmer besides all the um egregious jokes you were subjected to because of your name?
SPEAKER_00Well, that has always been a part of my swimming career, uh for sure. And yeah, I mean to kind of play off of that, whenever I would go to a meet and I'd be standing behind the blocks for like prelims or something, where you know there's a couple heats still in the water and they have to check your name, I could always tell who was like a really excited timer because they're like looking at the people and then they're looking around and they're looking at their heat sheet and they're kind of smirking, and I'm like, they're they're they're over there just toying with my name. Right. And then eventually I would stand up and you know, I've gotten questions that are like from the most weirdest questions to like, your last name really can't be Fish, right? And I'm like, I'm 10. How would I have changed my name? Like, yeah, so yeah, that's always been a big part of uh my career. But uh yeah, I um so I kind of had a a different lifestyle growing up. Um my parents weren't in the military, but we moved around 12 times by the time I went to college. Um so I swam on a bunch of different teams. Um, I had a bunch of different coaches and like club teams from like super small to uh eventually capped out at Lakeside and then went to UGA for school. So um yeah, it was it was an interesting process. I was like a multi-sport um athlete. I played even volleyball in high school when I was still swimming at Lakeside for a couple years. Yeah, so swimming was always a big part of my life. Um, but you know, I just really enjoyed being active, and I think my mom liked when I was more active because I was kind of like a hyper child. Um but yeah, it uh just took me a kind of all over the place, and then when I went to Lakeside, I felt like that's kind of where I kind of dialed in and focused in and um decided that swimming was something I really wanted to pursue and wanted to get the opportunity to swim in college, and that club team is great and still producing kids, and um yeah, it gave me really exactly what I wanted, and I went off to UGA and swam there for four years with some of the other best swimmers in the world, and um yeah, I feel like my my career, if I look back on it, is uh fairly fairy tale. Um, and yeah, I'm it's kind of crazy to think that it's it's still done.
SPEAKER_03So uh just even listening to that story, I I wasn't prepared for the volleyball thing. I mean, how did that go? Um, because you know, as you say, Lakeside pretty serious swim team. Um what what kind of conversation did you have about hey, I'm gonna, you know, play volleyball? Was it like a winter sport um that you were doing that for?
SPEAKER_00Or yeah, yeah. So swimming, well actually I think swimming was the winter sport, and I think volleyball was a fall sport. So um what I really wanted to continue to do was play basketball. I love basketball, and um, but that conflicted with swimming. So the other two options were either soccer or volleyball, which I had been playing as well. So soccer I'd played for like 14 years, volleyball I had only played for like four, and so when I got to Kentucky, the seasons were all sorts of different because I moved straight to Kentucky for high school. I was living in Pennsylvania for middle school. Um and yeah, I remember just like adjoining Lakeside and I was like, you know what, I guess I'll just continue with volleyball. And I thought I was pretty good at volleyball, but Louisville, Kentucky is really good at volleyball. There's a lot of traveling club teams and like a lot of people that played it for as long as I had been swimming. Um, so when I got here, I enjoyed it, but I wasn't like the best. And uh yeah, I did it for two years, and during that time frame, um, I was getting faster, and I think I ended up getting like my first senior national cut or like maybe a handful of them. And I knew that that conversation with Mike uh Debor was gonna happen on like, you know what, kid, why are we still missing practice to go to volleyball practice? So yeah, he sat me down and he was pretty nice about it because just cause I had an idea that he was gonna get ready to kind of push to make the make the choice. And um, yeah, I made the choice and I stopped after two years and just went all in with swimming for the 2008 Olympic trials and was just trying to make the the best run that I could, kind of being like a dark horse coming coming up.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so that's pretty remarkable. I mean, just sort of want to highlight it for a second, because I think there's a lot of discussion out in the swimming world right now about you know early specialization. And I mean, so from the sounds of it, you were multi-sport up until your junior year of high school. And then you and then you go on to UGA win some you were partisan national championship teams during that time. Um at what point do you start thinking I I would like to coach. When did that come across your mind?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, so it was kind of interesting. So, like, kinda uh play off the the specialization part of it as well, like there were so many people on my team in college that, you know, might have swam only swimming since they were like 10. Yeah. And they did that, you know, because that's what they just like heart and soul. Like, there was one girl that I remember like on Lakeside when I had joined that was in the national team, um, which is the highest group, and she had been on the national team since the sixth grade. So she had been doing doubles three times a week for six years by the time she actually signed and swam at the University of Texas. Um, but I remember just getting there and being like, What? Like, how have you been doing that for so long? Like, uh, how are you not burned out? Because it's such a grind. So I I'm really thankful that at the end of the day, like my parents, yeah, they they weren't ex excessively aggressive, but they did want me to like push myself and be the best that I could, and they were supportive of like whatever I chose, but they didn't tell me, you know, like, hey, you need to do X or you need to do Y, because when I got to college, I felt like I was still like fairly fresh with swimming, and it wasn't like this exhausted, exhausted state, um, where some of my friends were too.
SPEAKER_03So No, I think I think that's I think that's hugely important. Uh the podcast that I just released yesterday, I had uh Kim Foster Carlson on here, who's uh Casey Carlson's mom. And uh she highlighted the fact that Casey uh never swam a double and she purposely sort of uh until she was I think fifteen or sixteen years old. And she purposely sort of fended that off for many of the same reasons that you're describing. And I think it's an important story to tell. I I I do see a shift where um as I even as I talk to a lot of club coaches, the their focus maybe has uh has shifted from I've gotta get somebody to swim absolutely as fast as they possibly can here um to a more of a sort of a long-term uh uh plan for the development and and having kids get to college and still sort of have uh a lot of room to grow in terms of how much they're gonna train and and what they're gonna be able to do. And sounds like that was pretty important for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I think that it's I I mean, I do think it's super important, and I've worked and coached on club teams now that you know they're wanting to obviously make the kids as best as they can. Like the one that comes to mind is Georgia's club team, Athens Bulldogs, which was my first coaching, like real coaching gig, and um Harvey Humphreys is the head coach there, and his philosophy is like, yeah, we want the kids to swim in college, so we want them to come to practice, want them to be over overall, like very well-rounded. They do a lot of I am-based training, so they could be, you know, good in a lot of like versatile capacities, but it's not like how fast can we make them at the age of 16? Um, because they want their career to continue on. And um, that's maybe a little bit of a different approach than like a lakeside, and I think that there is still a bounce between the two of them. But like, I mean, I swim on lakeside and I was able to play other sports, so like you can do it even if you're at one of the ones that's like wanting you to produce even at a younger age. Um, I just do think that for me and my personality and needing just like outlets in other areas and other parts of my life, that's exactly why um playing volleyball for longer was honestly a good thing for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And so you mentioned that you started coaching uh there on Athens Bulldog. I mean, but again, when when did you um when did you sort of make a decision like I would like to coach swimming or um or did you fall into it? I mean what what happened? Tell me the story of you becoming a coach.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so this is actually quite interesting because I when I left the sport of swimming and was done at UGA, I was actually really mad at swimming. Um, my own swimming. It was no one else like really directed at. I was just very fed up with the fact that I didn't achieve my overarching goal, which was to make the Olympic team. And I kind of felt like my career in at Georgia wasn't as stellar as I expected it to be. And so I kind of just like had this like overarching, like swimming career equals failure mentality. Um so yeah, it and for me, I mean, I'm a very like bubbly, extroverted person, but there was a period of my life where I really was like kind of in this dark place, and um yeah, during that time was when I stopped swimming, and it made it worse. Um so I kind of was going through this lull, and um I started dating someone at the time, and they were like, you know, why don't you coach? Because they coached, and I was like, heck no. Like, there is no way like I'm going to start coaching, like, let alone coach at UGA. Like, you know, it's just was like, no, no, no, no, no. Um, but they kept asking and seeing if like, you know, there was any interest because ABSC needed coaches. Um, and I eventually kind of was like, you know what, I'll try it. And then I went one day and then went another day, and it slowly but surely it became entirely like flipped. It went from like Abby doesn't know who she is, oh my gosh, she stopped swimming to Abby's at the pool every single day, just like she was when she was swimming. She's just standing on the pool deck. Um and so yeah, it was uh kind of a slow progression, but once I got to the point where I was like, you know, watching eight-year-olds and six-year-olds come in with their you know backpacks down to like the backs of their knees and goggles half on, it really reminded me of like why I loved swimming. Um and my attitude started changing, and I realized, you know what, like, yeah, I wanted to make the Olympic team, but I always felt really prideful and a sense of like happiness when my friends did too. Um, and that's a big component of being a coach. So yeah, I started coaching, and once I started coaching and realized like, heck, I could be really good at this, um, because I do love swimming, I just haven't stopped.
SPEAKER_03And and have you been able to I mean, uh it sounds like it, but have you been able to reflect on the end of your own sort of athletic career in a different way from being a coach? Because as you said, you you were in that uh point where you were really angry. Um you know, I can relate to that too. I I definitely left the sport of swimming super angry um and and then went on to coach. And I know that um uh I I I feel actually uh this is there's a lot of coaches that you know in some ways part of coaching is working through how they feel about their own uh time as a swimmer. So w what I mean, what as a coach have you been able to reflect on differently um back on your own time swimming?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, that's a great question, and it's it's so entirely true. I mean, I remember when I was even contemplating starting coaching, I knew people that um swam in college that started coaching for the wrong reasons, and it was like maybe bitterness or because they didn't know well who they were or what they wanted, and yeah, you know, they would be in it for a couple years, but it's kind of like a half-hearted effort, and I was like, I don't want to be that person. Like if I'm gonna coach, like I wanna be good. I've always just like if I'm gonna do something, I've always said I just want to be good at it, I want to be committed to it. I don't want to be like a half in, kind of half out um deal. And so I kind of had that in the back of my brain, but yeah, inevitably with just having to work through some stuff like mentally with my own career, um it it happened. And yeah, I uh I felt like it was a really interesting shift when I started realizing that like, you know, everybody has a lot of adversity in their careers, but when you're sitting within your own pain and like looking at just yourself, it's really hard to like understand that, like, yeah, okay, maybe I didn't make the Olympic team, but then there's so-and-so down the street who might feel the exact same way. And because I'm able to have that conversation with her or him on my own stuff, we can then have a conversation where we can really relate to each other super well. So I kind of feel like on the total flip side, kind of like 180 of where I was to where I'm at now. Um, I don't actually know if I would be coaching if I did make the Olympic team because yeah, I feel like I have this like total different ability to relate to kids and people and just like not getting to where you want to be conversation that I wouldn't have been able to understand how to do if I did achieve achieve everything that I wanted to achieve. Um so that relatability uh I think is something that I could never be taught. Um, but I was taught it because I didn't achieve my goal.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you got some empathy in that. I mean, yeah, and uh unfortunately, you know, most of the time we've got to learn empathy um the hard way. Uh so you start coaching at uh ABSC, Athens Bulldog. Um and uh where does it go from there? Because you know, uh just to keep uh to keep in mind for the listeners, I mean, you're basically you're gonna end up in a place um where you are now that is like 20 years ago you couldn't have explained to somebody that that would be a job, right?
SPEAKER_00I mean it still might have been two months ago. Yeah, maybe two months ago.
SPEAKER_03No, so yeah, because I I I think about this because I I I knew I wanted a coach when I was 14, but if you told me at 14 like this is what you'll be doing when you're 36 years old, I would have been like, that doesn't make any sense. Like that's not a real job that exists. Um so you know, w how how do chart the path there from from being a uh quote unquote normal swim coach um up until what you're doing now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No, well that's like so entirely true. And I feel like I don't know, this is a very interesting conversation because even before you like pointed out something as regards to my Skype username, and now you pointed out something that like still people don't necessarily highlight, and that's like just interesting. So Chris, you're you're an interesting guy. Thank you. Yeah. Um, but no, so I A never thought I would own my own business, which is what I do now. So yeah, if you would have told 14-year-old Abby that you'd be running your own business and living in Louisville, Kentucky and working remotely and all this stuff, and it had to do with swimming, I think swimming would have been the only part that would have been like, okay. Um I'd have been okay with. But uh yeah, I just I started coaching at ABSC. Um, I enjoyed coaching, but I was like a little hesitant with the fact that I'm a female and I knew that I wanted to have a family, and I was watching a bunch of people coach for reasons and different reasons, and watching females start and then not be able to finish because there's not a whole lot of balance in the career in general. It doesn't really matter what your gender is, um, but add on the capacity of like you know, bearing a child and all this other stuff, it just it's really hard to do it well. And as I said before, if I do something, it's like doesn't matter what it is, I want to do it well. So I was coaching and kind of just trying to like weigh out my options. I was in grad school, I was um volunteer coaching with UGA and I was just kind of dabbling at a bunch of different things. And um Jack uh actually really pushed me to apply for an internship at USA Swimming um in their high performance department because another girl who she's retired now from coaching, but she swam at UGA had done the same internship and she really enjoyed it and helped her kind of like catapult her career. So she was, I think she was fairly young, but coaching at Northwestern at the time. So um she's like, this is what this would be a great start for you, kid. Like I'll you know, I'll help you with like a recommendation, XYZ. And I was like, perfect. So I applied and I got the internship, and um, it was the probably one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had because I had never gone to the training center, so I got to live at the training center and basically work with Russell Mark on video race analysis for all the you know junior national and national team athletes. Um so for me, I was just kind of sitting there and I remember just going to work and thinking like, this is what Russell does every day. Like, this is how he works. Like he's a coach, but he has like kind of normalized hours, but then he goes to meets, and you know, these these other swimmers get to, you know, use him and they utilize his feedback and they create these little like small tweaks and implementations of their technique and they get faster. And it's kind of like a coach, but it's like an adjunct coach to like the regular coach. And I was like, you know what, I want to do that. And but how do I do that? Uh, because like who does that without working at USA swimming? Um, so I was like, you know what? I'm gonna have to try to forge my own path because I don't necessarily want to just work with USA swimming swimmers. Like there are swimmers all over the world, and I love swimming and I love connecting with people. So let's just figure out a way to get that done. Um so I left the internship and uh got a job at Nashville Aquatic Club. Um, it was kind of a really weird job. So, like one of my friends in Louisville told me about that NAC was hiring and they wanted a technology coordinator. Um it was a technology coordinator with a caveat of like seven other responsibilities of like swim lessons to coaching groups to writing strength conditioning programs to like figuring things out as you go. Um so yeah, I took the job and I worked with John, and um yeah, I was super young at the time, and I really was like, Yeah, all I want to do is video analysis, and you have 400 swimmers, and that's like what I want to do all day, every day. And he's like, Well Well, you know, you're actually gonna need to do a lot of other things to like justify this being a job. And so I ended up like running around with a chicken, like a chicken with my head cut off for like a year, trying to do everything that he wanted me to do without really doing anything of those things very well. Um so that in itself just didn't work out, and so I was like, you know what? Need to I need to go. Um and I applied for a job at the race club. Um, and so just came across like a swim-swim article. I was looking for a new job, and I read it and I was like, this, what is this? Like, who is the race club? Kind of knew a little bit about it, um, but not fully entirely, and uh yeah, ended up Skyping with Gary and Mary Hall and got the job down in the Florida Keys and packed my car up and drove down there and was kind of like, I'll do it through 2016. Um, I think I can do anything for a year because once again I've moved around a bajillion times in my life that move moving to an island doesn't scare me by any means. Um and yeah, that's kind of was the shift from like snack I could consider like a regular, kind of more traditional coaching job with like a video analysis flair. And then when I went to the race club, because they're entirely just like against the grind and they have been their whole life, like we were coaching and doing camps and one-on-one lessons, but then I was also coaching online, and that was kind of my first experience in understanding that you could even do that and how you would do that, and why you would, and what does marketing look like, and all these other components that I wasn't taught in like my traditional coaching roles. Right. Um so I did that for a little over a year, and then um Chris Ritter called me and he was like, Hey, you know, I've I know of you XYZ and I'm looking to bring like some stroke technique instruction to my online platform. And at that time, Raider Sports Performance was a sports performance company for all all sports, and Chris's background is in strength and conditioning and basically dry land training. Um, so I was like, you know what, this is a very strange opportunity, but I'm gonna capitalize on that, and I would love to be able to just work online, and that's pretty much how he sold it to me. So Chris kind of was a mentor in a huge sense of taking me from a job that was like 50% online at the race club to working at Ritter, which was 100% online. Um and so yeah, that was kind of like, okay, I can I can do what I said I wanted to do when I left USA swimming five years ago. If I can figure out how to use technology to coach swimmers from all around the world, I can do this technique instruction that Russell does. Um, but yeah, I can work with anyone. And it just was like this aha moment of like, holy cow, did you just like figure out how to do what you want to do? But how do you then let people know that it's there and that it's worthwhile and that they should take advantage of it? Right. So at Ritter, I was with Ritter for the longest time. It was about three years, and we changed our direction and all these things as we were going through, and I felt like we were kind of making a better name for ourselves in this space. And um, yeah, long story short, I ended up leaving in May, and I decided that you know what, I really want to just do stroke technique instruction. Like that's exactly what I've always said I've wanted to do, and I kind of want to be steering the ship and knowing where the ship is going and be a little bit more like folk focused and dialed in and uh started my own business, and essentially I work online as a stroke technique coach with swimmers all around the world.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Well, I mean, so many parts of that um uh just even before another ask another question, I mean, uh resonate with me. I I I know that um I was even thinking as I was listening to you, I mean, I was coaching at Georgia Tech probably around the same time you were swimming.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know you of like before.
SPEAKER_03We've seen each other on a pool day. Yeah. Um I I probably wasn't paying that much attention to you because we were just getting shellacked uh in the women's meet. But um, you know, I I people ask me why I ended up leaving that job, and and I 100% I wanted to have children and I didn't want to be an absentee father, and I I saw no way I was gonna be able to do it continuing that way, and this is one of the reasons I'm uh running my own business. Another thing that I definitely would not have ever thought I was going to do. But um it does actually allow me to be a parent, and I think that is um that's a lifestyle struggle that I see quite quite frequently in um in the swimming world. I remember um somewhere right around 20 2016-ish, um that Sergio Lopez had been coaching um over in Singapore and he came back to the US I think primarily because it it really didn't work family-wise for him to live there. And uh I wrote an article for Swim Swam, I said, you know, someday Sergio Lopez won't have to move to Singapore to do this. And I think I got laughed off at the site, you know, and people were like, okay. Um because I said, you know, virtual reality will get to some point where um you'll be able you'll be able to maybe you'll not get a hundred percent of Sergio Lopez, but you might get pretty close without him having to live there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um and and just hearing about what you're doing um makes me think, you know, that's right, it it it is coming. Like um maybe there are still a lot of details um to be sorted out, but um we're closer than I think a lot of people realize um to uh some of this stuff being possible. I wonder so one of the things I uh I taught you about when we did last is I had a similar experience of of being here just uh just coaching starts a couple times a week. This was um sort of as I was on my way out um of of living in Denmark. Um I know you had this experience with with Russell Mark, but um like what point do you uh get like a lot of confidence that like yeah, I can sit down and watch video of somebody swimming and give them feedback that is gonna be like really effective. Because I feel like you have to get to a a really high confidence point, especially to do it online.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, and I a hundred percent agree with that. I think for me that confidence level has built up slowly because it it was kind of like I had all these mentors. Like I had Russell and I heard what Russell thought, and then I had John and I heard what John thought, and then I worked under Gary and I figured out what Gary thought. And so like I had all these people telling me their philosophies, and it's kind of what you do as a coach, anyways. You're constantly trying to learn and revamping your coaching philosophy, but it's more from a training perspective. But for me, because I was very much like into technique, those conversations were just always technique-oriented. Um and one of the other components of why I decided to leave the race club was I knew all these different types of philosophies, and I started realizing that as I was coaching people, it didn't matter what hat or umbrella or team I was under, I started giving feedback based off of what I thought. And I was starting to formulate my own philosophy that was outside or maybe a little different of some things that I had been told or you know, told to teach. Um and with that, like, you know, I needed to start testing things and looking at things and analyzing things and really trying and you know, basically doing what you do as a coach. Sometimes you adjust your training routine and it works really well for some kid and then it doesn't for another, and you look at that and you analyze why, and then you reassess and you re-implement something else. And um, so when I was at Ritter, um that's really what I was doing. I was I was kind of like formulating my own philosophy, I was putting some content out there, I was seeing what people would resonate with as I was kind of like just raising my hand saying, like, hey, I'm Abby Fish and I have something to say. Um and that in itself, just over the years, realizing that like people A love stroke technique and coaches can talk about it like all day long.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00B, if it's a fairly well-written article or has like a decent amount of content or something in it, like people will talk about it, and you know, people seem to enjoy what I was doing. And so that kind of like fed into the confidence level of like, hey, yeah, like you love biomechanics, you studied it in college, like you have a background in it, but like you're applying what you know like educationally and then what you've learned environmentally, and now you have this idea of what you think works with swimming, and when you work with people, it helps. And that's kind of like the birthplace of my my own business is realizing that, like, hey, like you can do this, like, and what you do is beneficial and it helps people achieve their goals, which is you know, we go way back full circle to originally Abby, you know, getting into coaching and enjoying to enjoying seeing someone else achieve their goals. Like, it's exactly what I want to do. Um so yeah, it's it's pretty it's pretty crazy, but it uh it works.
SPEAKER_03So I want to go back to something you mentioned right at the beginning uh of that answer, because I think it's um it's definitely something I've run into as well, and I'm I'm just wondering to sort of get your take on it. Um you know, you said you you you worked on sort of developing your own voice and your own um sort of philosophy and and you must have run into resistance uh in terms of people not you know, I I I I I I encounter this where people uh a coach, for instance, does not want you to sort of contradict what kind of feedback they're giving to the athlete. How how have you navigated around that in the work that you've done? Because obviously, I mean, as a coach, you you want to be respectful to other coaches, you don't want to be in conflict with other coaches, it's not good for anybody. But at the same time, if you are just essentially um uh saying the exact same thing as somebody else, um, what kind of value are you really adding to the process? I mean, how how have you navigated that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that is something for sure that I had to combat and look at and figure out how I would respond to like this question exactly. Um and kind of like a couple jobs ago, yeah, I was in a position where it was like we were working with kids and the kids that we were working with like may not even tell their coach because their coaches didn't want them to go out and get outside feedback. And it was just kind of like this weird vibe, and I felt like, in a sense, to me, that vibe was negative because I was like, Well, I don't want to I don't want someone to think that I'm coming in and wanting to like steal your children or tell them things or like you know, make a ton of money off of something that is just like worth like not worth anything. Um like I actually do want to help uh and I want you to see me as a positive um in a positive light and someone who can help your kids and maybe makes your job a little bit easier because as we've talked about, swim coaching lifestyle and swim coaching grind is is real, and coaches don't have much time to do a whole lot of anything besides coach. And um yeah, so what I really kind of started formulating was like, you know, my philosophy, and yes, like I have a philosophy on how things work, and I've tested a bunch of stuff, and I've looked at the stroke patterns and I've looked at flu I've read fluid dynamic books and just like I've gone to research facilities, like, and I think I know that there's there's ways that you can swim fast, but the way that I've kind of come about with my own coaching philosophy is that there is no one way to swim fast. So when I work with people, or even, you know, if I'm with a coach and a coach has a specific viewpoint on what he thinks, like I'll take it, I'll listen to it, and I may say, you know, well, what about this? But instead of just coming at the situation and being like, I know it works, this is what works, and this is what we're going to do. I kind of like to think of myself as more of like an educational coach. Like, I'd rather just come at it and say, Well, hey, have you thought of this? Or like, have you looked at it from this angle, or I've done this, and have you implemented that and kind of allow the conversation to be an actual conversation versus like it's a one-size-fits-all equation. You need to pull out with a freestyle with a high elbow pull, like no questions asked. If your coach doesn't tell you that, they're just not even a good coach, and then send them on their merry way. Um, and so I feel like that in itself has helped me um kind of position myself more in a positive light of just saying, hey, like I want to help you get better, whether you're the coach or the swimmer. Um, and with that, I'll give you a bunch of information, and from there, either I'll help you make the decision or you're going to be the one that's making the decision for the kid that you're with.
SPEAKER_03I I think that's a really nice approach because I I do think that it's kind of absurd if you sort of take it out of the context, this idea that you know, sort of one person should be the source of all information for uh anybody trying to learn something. Like anything else you're trying to learn, you need actually a lot of inputs. You need a lot of people who look at it um from different angles to give you help. And um what I observe too with elite swimmers is quite often they have a ton of people giving you input. Um and they don't they don't get confused, they just sort of um look at the whole thing as uh I think as you as you sort of put it as additive, as educational, like okay, there's something I can learn from this person. This is not um my primary coach, but I might be able to pull something from this person that's gonna be really useful to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, for sure. And I feel like that's kind of where like my business now sits. Like, I don't consider it a training or like a sports performance company or something that can be like misconstrued as like I'm Abby Fish and I'm over here writing swimming training plans. And if you contact me, I'll be coaching your kid remotely, you know, five days a week. I don't do that. I don't I don't have any interest in doing that. So it I call it a continuing education platform for swimmers and coaches because it's just drug technique information, things that I've tested and tried, things that I've been exposed to. And um yeah, you can take with it what you wish. We can work more together if you want, but other than that, like it's just there and it's a resource for you.
SPEAKER_03Alright, so I wanna I want to talk about a couple uh swimming technique topics, but I want to make sure also don't bury, we've been talking a lot about uh swim like a fish. Give give people an idea, because I think this is also really important when you start a business, to just be able to explain to people like what you do, who who you typically work with, how you typically work with them. Um run through that, and then uh then we'll save the fun stuff for last and talk a f a few tech topics.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I mean, as I said, Swim Like a Fish is a continuing education platform. It's a membership-based site. Um so I have a bunch of things on there that are you know free videos, blogs, etc. on swimming stroke technique. Um, but to be actually like a part of the site, you become a member. And the goal of what the membership site is called is a school of fish, is to basically take people through all steps of the learning curve on different aspects of swimming stroke technique. So first one is just like general awareness, understanding that there may be a different way or a different style that than you're used to. Um the next step in that equation is to be able to actually look at it and identify it. From there, you go into learning how to do it yourself, and then at the very end, it would be how would you coach someone else to do essentially what you learned at the very beginning. Um the goal is to build out this entire library of when you go into the membership site, uh, you can click on you know freestyle, and then from there you can click on the freestyle catch and you go through steps one through four on how to improve your freestyle catch and you learn all different styles and ways that people do it well. Uh so yeah, it's it's uh it's really cool. It can be accessed from anywhere. Um, and if for some reason you know the membership site sparks the idea of wanting more, I do do clinics in person, um, which basically take what I have online to wherever I go or people come to me and I work with them in the water on um picking what's in the membership site, because the membership site, as we said, is just giving people a lot of information in a lot of different ways, and then customizing essentially what is available to this person and their goals and where they're at and you know how they train and etc. to give them the best kind of pieces of the puzzle to achieve what they want to achieve.
SPEAKER_03And and what sort of people are members of the website? Is it coaches, parents, swimmers themselves? I mean, all that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so predominantly right now we have more coaches than we have swimmers. Um, and I was kind of anticipating that just popping um off and starting this from Ritter. Ritter was very coach-based as well. Um But I do I have an influx um on my own that's been from more of like older swimmers, so we have master swimmers, and then we kind of have some some people that are like dabbling between like end of high school, so more like parents sign them up, but um into college, so people that are just eager and really want to just learn. Um, so there's kind of this two very distinct like groups where it's like older master swimmers that love swimming and they're looking just for more information, and then we have some younger swimmers that are still kind of you know in the grind of swimming and whatnot, but they're just looking for some different feedback or different ways to think of things that are sitting in there too. So it's quite an array of different people. But what I've found is that as long as the content's good and it's helping and people are learning, you know, a different style, or maybe I'm just saying the same thing but in a different way than their than their other coach, um, it's helping them make changes and you know having some light bulb moments.
SPEAKER_03Nice. And is there, I mean, is there is there a big goal here with some like a fish, like you know, beyond what's what's happening now where you really would like it to go?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I would like it to continue to grow, so I don't have any sort of like huge goal of like I want to build this out to the you know biggest and baddest company and sell my company or whatever. Um I would like to continue to scale it. I'm growing with a small team right now, and um the you know, the more people that we end up getting into the site obviously means the more stuff that we need to make sure is running well and smoothly, and um, you know, there's customer service representative, we have social media um managers, like there's just people that are around and are helping, and as we continue to grow, we're gonna end up needing more. Um, I think for me, my goal is more so art more like an arbitrary goal. It's there's not a numerical goal behind it or a money goal. It's just a matter of like, I want to continue to put out good content, I want to continue to help people, and I would love to help as many people as possible. So if it can be zero or fifty or five thousand, I'm gonna pick five thousand. Um so and that's the beauty of working online, is you have the ability to do that.
SPEAKER_03Nice. All right, let's talk a couple of tech topics, and I you know, um, just for the all the listeners, uh, I did not prepare Abby for any of the uh questions I'm about to ask. Um so you gotta give her credit for being game. We haven't talked too much tech like on uh uh tech technique on this podcast, but we have had some pretty controversial hot takes, uh including one about streamlines. So I'm wondering, where where do you stand on the streamline here in 2019? Is it is it still sort of the gold standard that we grew up with? Or is there sort of room for debate on the streamline? What do you think?
SPEAKER_00So just you're saying whether to streamline or not to streamline. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00All right, a way to pull out the like hop topic hot card, like it's like like the one swim-swim article that was written a couple months ago that was like, should you kick with a kickboard? Kickboards are terrible. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, that was a clickbait article and it worked.
SPEAKER_02I wrote a clickbait article once about how I don't use any equipment coaching.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and people probably went nuts over it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And it did that's the funny part of it, is like on the other side, knowing what you did you did that and why is hilarious because then you have all these other coaches that have no idea, and they're like, this guy has no idea what he's talking about. Like, holy cow, like who why did he even coach at Georgia Tech? Like he has no credentials.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, so no, I would say, as far as streamlining is concerned, so I've done a lot of work with a velocity meter and using different systems to test drag versus propulsion. And I would say that I still believe that a streamline is the fastest position a swimmer can be in, as long as they're generating speed prior to the actual streamline position. So if you have a solid block, you know, jump and you have a good push off from the side and your your speed itself is higher than what your swimming speed is, yes, it makes sense to go into a streamline versus all of a sudden either going into swimming or any sort of different positioning from that. Because for me, it's like you start your fastest point of any swimming race is off the block, second fastest point is off your turn. And immediately you start slowing down. So all you want to do is slow down less than the people beside you. And if you can carry your speed well, say you're good at dolphin kicking, or you can stay under longer, like a you know Caleb Dressel, it makes sense to be in that spot. If for some reason you don't jump well or you're not good at your underwaters, or you're not carrying your speed, um, or your speed is faster above the surface of the water, then yeah, get up and go through the surface of the water. Um, but the norm I would say right now is still if you can carry your speed and you have a good jump, the streamline is where you should go.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So you could actually envision some some a scenario where you would tell somebody not to streamline? Or am I hearing your Yeah?
SPEAKER_00I mean, if the numbers, I'm a big numbers person. So if the data itself, it doesn't lie. So like if for some reason someone pushes off, or I don't I mean, you could be talking about, I mean, we could go totally left field and say, one of my best friends is a Paralympian. Like she pushes off the wall and she only has one leg to do that. Does that speed actually is it faster for her to streamline under the water for a split couple seconds versus her to get up and use she has two arms and swim?
SPEAKER_03Like this get going.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So and I know that that's not just Paralympian, like people are trying to apply that to you know, able-bodied swimmers as well. But that's where it's like, if someone was to really think that, and that's where like Sam working with a coach and they're like, No, Abby, streamlines is where it's at, like, or you should do streamlines or whatever, I would just say, okay, let me pull out this equipment over here, let's test these people, and I don't care if I'm right or wrong, but let's like just figure out what it says. And if you're right, keep going, kind of thing. And that's that's kind of where I sit with like my actual um viewpoints on technique. It's like, I'm not just gonna tell you something because I think it's right. I want it to be right.
SPEAKER_03So are there are there other things? Now I'm gonna make this one more of an open-ended question. Um, you know, are there other things sort of like the streamline where it's sort of become uh the standard in swim coaching? But some of the work you've done have really challenged um your your assumptions or others' assumptions about sort of what's right um in a particular stroke. Is is there a sort of a big example of that that you can think of?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I mean I think I would say kind of this high elbow pole deal that like Oh gosh, yes, let's talk about that.
SPEAKER_03I was hoping you would say that.
SPEAKER_00Um that's the one that just like glaringly throws out in my mind, and I feel like it's because of Katie's stroke that like people even really started like coining the term, and I I don't know, it's it's so astonishing to me because I watch so much underwater video that like coaches are telling their kids, like, hey, you need to be swimming in a high elbow pole, but then you look at their stroke under the surface of the water, and it's not even like remotely close to the position that they're you know essentially articulating. Um and so yeah, the high elbow pole itself is a good pull, like there's benefits to it, there's also cons to it as well, but like for me, it's just like it doesn't make sense for a kid to think that they should be in a high elbow pole. Like I was doing an analysis yesterday with a girl that was in Connecticut and I was reviewing her videos with her, and um, all I saw was her elbow leaning backwards first, and she's like, Well, I thought I was pulling with this high level catch, and I was like, No, like you're pulling with like you're trying to move water essentially from your elbow to your shoulder as opposed from your elbow to your middle finger. So, like you're essentially using your tricep to like anchor and move yourself forward, which is a very small surface area. Um, and I was like, a way that I always tell people if they're in that position, I call it like petting a cat, like if you're just like petting the water to re-engage, is you have to straighten out the arm to then even try to pop the elbow in the opposite direction that it's currently going. And when you say the straight arm pull, then everyone who's super high elbow goes crazy and they're like, Oh my gosh, no, like you never pull with a straight arm. And it's like, well, pulling with a straight arm is better than petting a cat. Like so, yeah, it's just it's astonishing to me that that is such a coined term now in swimming. Like, I was never told to pull with a high elbow pull, and I just stopped swimming like eight years ago. Um, and now everyone tells people that, but they're not actually teaching about proper positioning.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think uh you know, I I've g done a lot of thinking about um high elbow catch, high elbow pull, whatever however we want to term it as well. And I I almost think you you referenced Ladecki. I mean, I do think um that some people are are drawing off of um Alexander Popov's swimming career that you know he was somebody who was uh he was an elite sprinter, but he took a lot less strokes than everybody else, and people were trying to figure out why is he so efficient, you know, and and there's been I think a number of theories uh about all of that. Um but I when I actually um you know, get on YouTube and uh go to quarter speed and try to watch whatever I can old uh footage of him swimming, I I don't see a high elbow pull. But some other people watch it and they see a high elbow pull. And so I I I it's um it's it's just a tough thing because I think two people looking at the exact same video like they they come out with a different interpretation. And and the inter and and then when you take that on the other end to the swimmer, you know, they're saying something but what's actually happening is is different, right? So um and that's um that's part of just the struggle of of teaching is you know, translating movements of the body into um auditory feedback. Um and and even video um you know has its own limitations, right? It's a it's a two-dimensional thing, you can't see um uh all uh all the ways things are moving. Um so there's there's challenges um in in working with some of this stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think that like, you know, Katie's like Katie's pull in itself to me is actually not a traditional high elbow pull. Like I would consider her galloping stroke, like more of a hybrid, but people look at that and they think she's like pulling super well in her left hand, the elbows popped up, that like she has a high elbow pull, but you can look at someone like Grant Hackett, who, you know, phenomenal swimmer, and he has like a very nice high elbow pull, and that's been you know, it's been a while since he was really dominating at the Olympics, but like Alison Schmidt pulls with that, and there's a bunch of people that can get into that positioning, but like once again, it's a good position, but you you have to have a lot of shoulder mobility. The kid has to understand A2, like how that position feels, um, versus just kind of like blankety said blanketly saying to like, you know, I coach for an age group team in Louisville, and for me, it's not like I come at coaching and say, hey, like you guys need to pull this high-level pull. Like, if I'm gonna teach that, I need to teach that in a way that the kids can understand this is should this should be how it should feel. And if they don't get it, then it's, you know, let's reevaluate and see if whether that's actually a position you can get in or something you can be taught over time. Um, but I yeah, once again, I don't think it's like the only way that you can swim fast. Like you don't need to just have a high-level pole to swim freestyle fast.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, um that so we've covered two very uh controversial topics. I mean, uh one one other thing, uh you know, you mentioned you've got some people uh working for you, and and yes, you're doing mostly online, you do some clinics and that kind of stuff. I've noticed you posting some stuff. I mean, are you do you have sort of a plan for your own professional development? Are you traveling around a little bit for that to sort of continue your own learning even as you try to uh build out sort of a learning platform for other people?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I totally think that, I mean, at the end of the day, and I think Jack, it probably was Jack that gave me this advice. I was like, you know, the the day that you decide that you know everything is the day that you become a really bad coach. Um and I've taken that to heart uh and kind of run with it. And so when I'm traveling or even at clinics and stuff, I'll reach out to other coaches, and even if it's like, you know, you and I sitting down and talking for 20 minutes, like I do love hearing what other people think um and why they think that, or maybe hearing what they've done and that what's worked for them and what hasn't. So I can constantly continue to get better. Um, and I want to continue to learn because I love swimming, like I love what I do, and um, I love coaching. And yeah, I'm not gonna sit over here and claim that I know everything about coaching. There's a lot of other coaches out there that do things super well, and um I want to be able to be exposed to that. So, like an extreme example is last fall I moved over to Australia for three months and I did basically a continuing education like jaunt for myself. Um, and I visited a bunch of coaches uh on all different levels of the spectrum for Australia swimming and just got um videos, I got in interviews, I got to sit down and I really just got to see how they were doing it over there. And that to me was super um beneficial because I've been exposed to a lot of high-end USA swimming coaches. Um and yeah, I'm gonna be biased. I think USA is still the best, but um, there's still people all around the world that are getting better, and like I work with a Canadian company right now, and Canada's doing well, and you know, the Brit the British are doing really well, and um I know a couple coaches that are over there, and you know, they work with much more smaller intimate groups, and um, you know, there's a lot more research facilities in different areas, so yeah, for me it's just a matter of like, okay, I'm doing this, I'm building this, I coach in person to make sure that I just am constantly on deck and I'm I have a group of kids and I'm taking them through a training progression and I'm staying fresh in that regard, and then like on the outside of this peripheral, like how do I continue to make sure that um I'm around other great coaches and learning constantly? Um, because I just don't ever want to be stagnant. So it's it's quite the balance. Sometimes it's it's hard to do, but yeah, I do pride myself in the in the um opportunities that I've had and other ones that I'm gonna create in the future just to try to stay on the the top trends or even just go back to, you know, someone pulled out the the stand-up backstroke starts from the 80s, and why are you still doing that? Like, whoa, what do you think that's good for and uh having those conversations?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, it's been great uh chatting with you. Uh just before you go, um, give people an idea if they want to learn more about what you're uh doing, if they want to sign up for swim like a fish, where should they go uh to do those things?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I'm I'm on all social media platforms um and my website is swimlikeafish.org. Um if you're interested in joining or just learning more about even the membership site itself, it's swimlikeafish.org slash join. Um but feel free to check out the blog. As I said, there's other things on the site that are accessible without necessarily being a member. Um and yeah, I'm always putting things on social media slash telling people about all the adventures of my life. Um, so feel free to follow me on any of those as well.
SPEAKER_03Alright, great. Uh thanks so much for coming and talking with me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no problem. Thanks, Chris. Have a good one.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for listening to another podcast, and as I said off the top, I really hope that you have a wonderful Thanksgiving. The DeSantis family is heading off on a nice little trip for the week. Um I may be back with uh a podcast or two uh next week and some blogs as well. Um talk a little bit about my experience uh just having been out to Cleveland and uh attending the Magnus Cup with them and everything uh I sort of learned and observed there. But until then, have a great Thanksgiving and see you soon.