The swim brief is brought to you by my employer, Jersey Wahoo's Swim Club, a USA swimming silver medal club in Mount Laurel, New Jersey. You can read up more about how Jersey Wahoos brought this podcast back at ChrisDcoach.com. That's D H R S D as Disantiscoach.com. Jersey Wahoos provides all levels of swimming instruction from learn to swim to national level competition training. Since 1972, Wahoos has been one of the best clubs in the Middle Atlantic LSD, and we're proud of a tradition that values trust, honesty, and respect. This week on Swim Brief, I am joined by Cal Associate Head Coach Danny Corman. And we get right into it. We talk about the uh just past women's NCA championship and um look at some of the stuff that they're using to evaluate that past season. We talk about recruiting, we talk about all of the uh amazing stops she's had on her coaching career. So I think it's really good, and I hope you enjoyed the Hello and welcome to the swim brief. The Associate Head Coach of the University of California, Berkeley. A whole day to rest and recover from the NCA meet before you were subjected to this question. How are you doing, Danny?
SPEAKER_02I am good, like you said, catching up on that sleep and getting back on West Coast time, but excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I let's get right into it. What did you what did you think of the NCAA meet? What's fresh on your mind? You've had that whole 24 hours to sort of uh decompress. So what's what's at front of mind when you think about this uh NCA meet you just had?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, overall, I think as a team and especially myself, we're just grateful we got to go. Um you know, after last year, it was a pretty big letdown a few days before we were supposed to get on a plane. Um, and so we just tried to really keep that mindset all year, not knowing if the meet would happen, but really just keeping our focus on that. And again, our message the whole weekend was like, let's be grateful we're here and have fun. And again, I think we we took advantage of that and we're really proud of our our final finish of fourth. Um, we had a national champion relay and a lot of lifetime bests, a lot of season bests. So we're definitely walking away with our heads held high and really excited for the future as well. With we have 14 freshmen coming in next year. Oh my gosh. Um, and everybody at the meet is returning next year. Um, so again, we're just excited about the overall performance and how we can grow moving forward.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and talk about like an uncertain season. Like, I'm curious for you guys, at what point in the year did you feel confident that there would be an NCA meet to go to? Like what do you have a date, sort of a rough date when you because I was hearing from people like in late January, early February, there's there'll be no NCA meet, right? So that that's not like that's there were definitely people out there that thought it wasn't gonna happen. When did you feel confident that meet was actually gonna take place?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it was more around Pac-12s. We were pretty confident, even though Pac-12s we weren't confident about um until the week before we were going to Houston. Um, but the NC2A did relay messaging that they were gonna make a decision about 30 days out, and so it wasn't gonna be a last-minute call. Um, but again, there's always that chance you get there and they people test positive and you can't compete. So I don't know that there was ever really like 100%. I mean, every day you're getting tested every other day at the meet, and thankfully there were no issues. We actually made it the whole season without one positive on our team. So we're definitely gonna take that as a win. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think about a month out, like once we were at Pac-12s and you know, the the championship manual comes out and all that, and things were starting to come together. I think we were pretty confident. But again, the whole year we were really focusing on it. So we tried not to let the indecisiveness or not knowing consume us too much.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so that's interesting. You say like the whole year you're focused on it. So, you know, let's say I don't know what the first day of your uh season was, but you know, August, September, somewhere around there. Do you do you and Terry sit down with the team and go, hey, we don't really know whether there's gonna be an NCA meet, but like this is Cal and we we're this is the meet that we're focused on. How did that conversation go?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I think it was a team conversation. Um, we were doing Zoom meetings all summer and we really didn't know when we would be allowed back on campus. Um so we officially were able to start about the second week of September, is when we had the whole team back and cleared to participate. Um But that was our that was our talk, is kind of like, all right, if we're gonna do this, are we gonna focus on NC2As or do we want to focus on something else? And pretty much the team consensus, like you said, Cal being Cal, like we wanted to focus on that meet. Um, and again, there's steps along the way that get us there. That wasn't the only thing we were talking about. Um, there had to be, you know, great workouts and when can we compete leading up to it? And there's still Pac-12s, and you got to qualify. So there's there's micro steps there. But um yeah, it definitely never left our minds that NC2A was the place we wanted to be at at the end of the year and give it our best shot.
SPEAKER_01Um great. So, you know, you said second week of September uh was when you got cleared to come back. Talk to give people an idea, like uh, you know, Bob, I'm I'm over here on the East Coast. And I think while everybody's had a pretty shared experience through COVID, the way it's played out, specifically in sports, has been a little bit different everywhere else. So, what are some of the hoops you had to jump through just to be able to have a collegiate season at Cal this year?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so the big thing is just making sure we're staying on top of testing. Um, I mean, it's great. We're getting tested uh once a week. So we had to make sure we're staying on top of that.
SPEAKER_01Is now is that an athletic department wide, like every team, or is it was that a okay, go ahead.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and they only brought back winter sports. So football was back, obviously, and then fall sports came back, and then they decided that seasons weren't happening. So they sent those athletes home. So it was pretty much winter sports, so us men swimming. Um, there was some track and field uh cross country around, and then football. So it was a smaller subset of the athletic department all fall. Um, so they could manage testing and we did um symptom screener every day. We had to get wristbands. Um, our cohort size is only 25. So for us, we were fortunate we could practice as one group. Um, but it was still tricky trying to get long course training. We started short course because we have more lanes, obviously. They didn't want our sharing lanes. Um, and then once we were in the clear for a little while, um we were able to do long course, so that was nice. Um our weight room was outside all year, so we didn't have typical lifting going on. Um they moved some racks and some dumbbells outside, but you couldn't have a partner to start with. So lifting all year looked very different. Um, we typically would would do like spin and dance and other things that we just weren't able to do this year. Um, dry land wasn't really approved until January. And then even then it was a very different looking dry land because we couldn't really share equipment and things like that. So, you know, there were a lot of protocols, but again, we stayed safe the whole year. So we're we're excited about that, but definitely looked very different than past years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, wow. I mean, I was just thinking about uh you're right, it's gonna be tough logistically to do something like spinning um in this environment. Like it's not as if you could just move all the bikes outside and you know get everything plugged in. And um, I know that has been a big part of your dry land program and in general. And of course, you know, like lifting presents its own challenges, right? If you can't do anything with a partner, um, obviously you can't do anything that involves somebody spotting you um in any way. So you probably have some adjustments to make in that regard. Were there any kind of other, I mean, in terms of the swimming practice, you talked a little bit about, you know, let that long course was uh a challenge. I'm I'm even thinking about, like I'm staring out at our pool right now. I'm thinking about the fact that we have people starting on either end and how the heck that would work outdoors in a long course pool with people on either end trying to sort of keep things um organized. But were there any other things in in swim practice in general that you know you sort of big adjustments you had to make over the course of the year?
SPEAKER_03Um, not too much. I think again, the starting the other ends was like there were little things that would pop up that you didn't really think about. Um, so Terry would run one end, I would go to the other end. Um, and then again, like I said, eventually we could all get to the same end. Um I mean, I think we did a good job of adjusting. So nothing really stands out too much in terms of practice. I think the biggest thing was like we couldn't do in-person meetings the whole year. And that's a big part of who we are is you know, getting together 10 to 15 minutes before practice and just hanging out and talking and stretching, and we couldn't use rollers because you couldn't share anything, and we didn't have locker rooms all year. Like the girls had no locker rooms to show up in your suit and get in the water. Show up in your suit, you swim, you put your clothes on, and you walk out. Yeah, so I mean, I think that played itself a little bit into like just the practice culture because it was you come, you swim, you go. Um, and so logistically that was that was the biggest difference. But in terms of like a specific workout, um it wasn't too different in my mind. Again, it was only my second year here, so I only had one year prior. Um, but that's where I think Terry did a great job of just you know pivoting when we needed to, and you know, telling the team like, here's where we are, here's what we can do, we're not gonna focus on what we can't do. And so I think for me it nothing really stands out that we couldn't do because I think we just did the best with what we could.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Is there stuff like you talk about having, you know, you you want to have meetings, you want to be able to talk to the athletes. I think a lot of people know um Terry as somebody who um, you know, works a lot on on relationships with athletes and um is is uh uh very good at developing that relationship, being encouraging, uh challenging people, you know, all this kind of stuff that you might do in that, as you say, 10, 15 minutes before practice, 10, 15 minutes after practice that you're not doing. Were there any advantages that you saw to uh uh to doing some of that stuff virtually? Like, is there anything we can carry over to an era where you have those things we used to have back?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I think um the fun thing over the summer is we we have little family pods that we do. And I think knowing that things were gonna be different, we integrated the incoming freshmen a lot earlier. And I don't I don't think they'd have really done that in the past. Um, so I think that's something regardless. I mean, we'll probably be over Zoom because they wouldn't be on campus yet, but I think that's something that we definitely want to do earlier is integrate our incoming freshmen. I think that really helped the culture once we could start swimming and be together as a team. Um, and then also just I think Terry and I, we we ran the meetings and we just felt like we were talking at them. So we got creative with them running the meetings. So I think that's another thing that we definitely, whether now it's in person eventually or virtually, like I think passing some of that off to the team. I think we found some leaders in areas that weren't expected, I think I would say, in terms of either creativity or engaging others. Um, so yeah, I think there are things here and there that we definitely can carry forward, um, either whether it's in person or virtually.
SPEAKER_01So I, you know, I asked you off the top some of your thoughts about NCAAs. And, you know, I again I I'm I'm joking about how little time you've had to sort of process that. But what give me give me some insight um as to what kind of process you guys are gonna use as a team? Like how does it work at Cal when you want to evaluate a season's over, right? You want to have some kind of like look back before you start moving forward. What what kind of processes do you guys use to do something like that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think again, right now we're still kind of in the take some space, and um, everybody I think needs a process a little differently, whether it's a day or a week or a month or whatever people need. Um, but I also I think this year is a little different too, because we have a lot of people, you know, looking towards Tokyo. And that looks very different for a lot of different people depending on, you know, the country they're gonna represent or where they are in terms of trials and still people we have some people that I mean, we have that girl who is a national champion on a relay who is still trying to get her trials cut because she hasn't been able to snow long course in like two years.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_03So, you know, I think right now, not to say that we're not gonna evaluate, I think we are. I think it's just gonna look very different depending on who someone is. Um, and it's more on an individual level, I think, right now, since everybody's path is a little different. And then I think, and probably I would say a few weeks, we'll come together as a team and you know, do some of those debriefs and look where were our strengths, where can we improve and what are we gonna take forward. Um, but again, I mean, last year we didn't really get to process um because things just kind of ended. And this year we're gonna process, but it looks very different because I mean, this year our NC2A team, only four people had ever been to NC2As prior. So, you know, three-quarters of our team, this is all they know about NC2As. So that's where we got to rely on, even myself have to rely on Terry's expertise because this was my only, you know, experience with Cal was this NC2As. Um, so I think there's there's a lot to learn. Um, and again, I think the debrief is gonna look very different for everybody, but that's where, you know, it's not a blanket, you know, program. We want to work with everybody's individual needs. And so we'll do that, and then we'll come together as a team and kind of put the pieces together. So we, like you said, move forward into next year.
SPEAKER_01You said uh one of the things I want to pick up on there is you said this is your first experience, this past uh D1 NCA championships. Obviously, you were a head coach at MIT, you went to D3 NCAAs every year, you were uh coaching at Johns Hopkins University's you were at NCAAs, I think every year during that. And as an athlete, you were at NCAAs every year? Yeah, okay. So so you went to a lot of Division III NCA championship meetings. You have a lot of those to compare. Um what what stuff because I was a D3 athlete too, like what stuff struck you as okay, this is this is this seems like what I recognize in it as an NCA meet. And then what kind of stuff was like, whoa, now this is this is different. This is D1 NCAAs, like what were some of the things that fell into those two categories?
SPEAKER_03Um, I mean, I will say I did get to go to Division I when I was at Yale with Eva Fabian.
SPEAKER_01So I've missed I've missed something. I've forgotten your resume.
SPEAKER_03I only say that because that was the last time um it was in Greensboro when Cal won. Okay, and so I was more or less in the stands, though. Eva was awesome, but she's in the mile. So we were we were up watching, but taking in the meet. So I was there, but in a very different capacity. Sure. Um but again, I think it's just the excitement of a meet. Like again, this year was different. We were sitting in the stands, but you could definitely tell, like just the excitement of not that D3 is not exciting. I loved it. And it is just a little different feel, but again, I don't know that I got the full feel this year without fans in the stands. Um, that was the biggest challenge, I think, this year was us making our own energy and being up top. Um, but just the times, and I think it was really this year just about racing. Um and, you know, just getting your hand on the wall. And, you know, again, I don't nothing like glaringly sticks out between like a D3 NC2A championships. I mean, there's no men at this one, that would be the biggest difference.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So there's that.
SPEAKER_01Um you probably went to some as an athlete before it was split, right? You mean you're about the same.
SPEAKER_03They were all they were together all four of my or split, yes, all four of my years. And then they combined it once I started coaching.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, so yeah, so kind of being split as an athlete, together as a coach, and now back as a coach split. Um, I do think that plays into some of it. But again, I think overall, like it's just an exciting meet. And I think, you know, whether it's division one or division three, I mean, I think people are there to perform at their best. And so that's that's your job as a coach to make that happen, regardless of what division it's at. And again, I I I don't know totally still what a big D1 meet looks like with a bunch of fans and Cal, you know, parents and fans going crazy. Um and I'm excited to see that, hopefully next year. Um but nothing really stands out as like a huge different, and maybe that's just me taking it in. But I think just kind of me boring me more being in the moment is what's important. And it's a it's obviously, you know, a little quicker meet if you're a D1 women's meet than D3 meet, but not, you know, that's exciting and it's it's fun to see. But again, I think just being in a place where people are ready to go and excited is what's what's fun.
SPEAKER_01So um, you know, we you mentioned uh off the top, uh and I think you drew a lot of positives from a fourth place finish. I I you know I know that there are plenty of people out there that could say, like, well, fourth place is a disappointing finish for Cal. You're probably one of the only schools in America where like somebody could consider fourth place disappointing, right? Um what do you like what do you do? Um does that something that you guys even think about that you feel like you have to address, or do you just go like, oh look, guys, this is ridiculous. Like, you know, uh you you can't win or get second every single year. Um because you know, I just think I think when you're when you're from the outside looking in, there's there's a perspective too where somebody from a less successful team would go like, well, it's all just like you know, um roses at at Cal, you know, then they just cruise right through the NCAAs and everybody swims as fast and goes. And and you know, your chuckle lets me know, like, of course it's not like that, right? There are struggles as well. And I, you know, I can just assume that as a team that has won a lot of NCAA championships, there does come like a certain amount of pressure to perform at a high level. How do you how do you address that as a coach? How do you see Terry um addressing that subject with the team?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, um, yeah, definitely not a disappointment. I mean, I think we're all incredibly grateful that we got fourth. Um, of course, we wanted more, but I think that's also just going to fuel us for the future. Um, you know, we've been 15 years now in the top five, and we were the only team to get a trophy prior to COVID and a team to get a trophy during COVID. So, I mean, I think we definitely can hang our hats on that, that we were, you know, second the last time there was a meet and fourth, and the other three teams didn't have a trophy. And so just there is there is still that consistency, you know. Um, again, not everybody had the meat they wanted, but we had a lot of highlights and we just got to focus on that. And we had a national championship relay and we had half our team go lifetime best at the meet. And, you know, I think focusing solely on fourth isn't gonna get us very far. No. Um, we we try, you know, there's there's that dichotomy as a coach, is you want to preach, it's just another meet, but also it is the final meet. And so I think we just need to keep that in mind that we can't define our season on getting fourth. Yes, it was like we talked about earlier, it was a big focus on our year. But if we're just gonna say fourth was a disappointment, I think we're negating the entire year. And I think we learned a lot this year. We were challenged in ways we never thought we'd be challenged. Um, and I give the girls credit, like we kept fighting until the very end of the meet. Um, and you know, a relay GQ, I think, set us back. But as we said in our meeting, like everybody pretty much went a lifetime best on that relay. I mean, Izzy Ivy went 49 for the first time and her butterfly split. Staden was like just off her best in the hunter back, Emma Reich was right on her best time. And Emily, I mean, even though she went early at the end, like she was pretty much on her best time. And so we just have to look at those things. And I think sometimes we get too stuck on the negatives and forget the positives. And so I really think that's the message like Terry, Terry kept trying to give is like, look at look at the good stuff we're doing. You know, people might focus more on the fourth place finish because we are Cal. And that's part of the, you know, the burden of being great is you're gonna have that expectation, but we also just got to use this to rise to rise up from it. And again, I think our goal next year is again to improve. And I think we learned a lot at the meet. Um, and like I said, we have a lot of talent coming in, and I think if we can just share this experience with the team next year, I think we're we have a really good advantage going into next season.
SPEAKER_01I I actually have an apology to make. I uh in regards to your relay DQ. Um, and I I probably shouldn't even be admitting this on air, but um I actually taught Emily Gantrus how to do a relay start. Um we'll have some words now. Yeah, we we were at no, we were at um I have to I have to tell you, like Denmark as a country has probably um the lowest collective like knowledge base about relay starts. Um so I was uh on the coaching staff at the 2015 European Games. Emily was was there on our national junior team, and we put her I think, you know, like second on an 800 freestyle relay. And uh she very sheepishly pulled me aside and she just said, like, I don't I don't know how to do a relay start. Like, I don't know how I've never learned, I've never done a relay start. I don't know how to do a relay start. And I said, I said, don't worry about it. We'll figure it out. Like, because we were there for five days before the meet started. So um it's a story I've told many times in my life that just like you know, that people can get to a very high level without figuring stuff out. And I'm pretty sure Denmark won a short course world championship in the 400 Medley relay once with with um their breaststroker doing a grab relay start. So um again, it's not a it's not a country. So um any bad vibes that followed from the relay day queue, I think psychologically, well, you could just use it, you could just blame it on me. You could just say, like, look, okay, Chris, if Chris hadn't let us down, guys, we would have won. No, but I I I do think like momentum-wise, like I I was watching the meet, and I'm I'm I'm completely biased. Like, one of the reasons you're on here is because I'm a fan of Cal. Okay. Um, I'm a huge fan of Terry. Um, I'm a fan of you as a coach. We've we've only met a few times, not like we're we're friends or or whatever, but uh I I've learned to be a fan, I've overcome my own jealousy over your career path, and I've learned to become a fan. Um more we'll more about that later. But like, you know, and I I said this on a podcast I was recording here, like I was 100% um all about Kyle. So I'm watching the beginning of the meet, and I'm like, they could they could they could pull this off. They're swimming amazing, they're swimming amazing. And I do think I could tell that the the swims that came after the relay probably were not as strong as as the swims before the relay. Now, the swims before the relay, like you had people swimming out of their mind, you had the relay national champion. Um what what do you do coaching wise? Because obviously, you know, like a relay DQ is is a gut punch when you're at a meet. Um, what are some of the things you try to do when something like that happens at a really big meet uh to try to keep as much sort of forward momentum as you can?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, again, I think it was just focusing on their relay splits. Like I said, it was an incredible relay. Um was our best in all year, and you know, trying to keep it on that. But again, I think, you know, I think some people stepped up after it and could keep going. And I think some people, you know, it's been a long year. And I think physically we were good, but I think emotionally it was a roller coaster year. And I think it just kind of came out a bit at the meat of people I think were more emotionally tired than physically. Um, and it's not an excuse. I think it's just something that, again, a lesson we learned, we need to know how to manage that better. Um, and something that we can now have a very, you know, upfront and hard conversation about. Um, because that's something Terry's all about, is that we're not gonna leave an elephant in the room, like we're gonna talk about it. And I think, again, some people are gonna need to have that conversation. And I think as a team, we just need to have that conversation of how can we better as a team rebound from situations like that? Because I think, like you said, some people did, and some people I think can do better. Um, I think Terry and I can also, you know, have that conversation with ourselves and as a staff of how do we help manage that better? Um, but again, I think it's just a learning experience. Um, not not blaming anything on Emily and or that relay. It just, you know, it's it's a matter of fact of what happened. And like I said, I think we can move forward from it and learn from it. And I mean, we were talking at the meet, Abby Weitzel did the same thing her freshman year on that relay. She jumped and DQ'd the relay. And look at Abby now. So it's it's not gonna define anybody's career. Um, and so how can we just take that experience and be better from it?
SPEAKER_01Uh, you talk, you've mentioned uh some of the athletes on here, and I I do want to ask you about some of the athletes that you had that just like have had an incredible year. Obviously, Isabel Ivey, she was Pac-12 swimmer of the year. Um, talk about her development. What has she done to improve and swim so well in her time at Cal?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think she's she's grown a lot. Um, you know, she came in her first year halfway through the year. So her first NC2As, she was only at Cal for a little while. And then last year was, you know, an exceptional year where we didn't get to go to NC2As. And I think just really seeing her grow as a person, not just a swimmer. I think, you know, COVID taught her some other areas that she of who she was. And I think that year really helped, you know, Izzy be Izzy at Cal. Um, and I think it helped her training in terms of she was a lot more consistent this year. Um, she wasn't, you know, afraid to lead the practice and get out in front and you know, take advantage of opportunities. And I think, again, I think it's more Izzy just knowing more about herself now and coming into her own as a person. And I think that's really transcended her into her swimming and she's getting more confident and she's learning ways that she can, you know, keep pushing herself, but also she always wants more. Like that last relay where she split 46-1, it was amazing. And then she's like already ready for like, I want to be better.
SPEAKER_01So I gotta get that 45. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, which is awesome. I mean, be happy in your head on that. But again, so I think she's done a a really great job growing in terms of that balance of knowing when it's time to push and knowing when it's time to be happy. But again, especially in training, I think her consistency was a lot better this year across all strokes and willingness to kind of do whatever she needed to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. All right, I want to switch pace and talk to you about uh your own sort of coaching journey here. And I told you before we started recording, like, you know, I wasn't gonna go into the the full bio, but I am curious about a few things and I said I would circle back to my jealousy. I mean, part of what I'm just jealous of is you get to you you've gotten to work with basically like all of my idols. So if we start with um George Kennedy at Johns Hopkins University, what um what are some of your biggest takeaways from that experience? Obviously, that was early in your coaching career. Um what what were some of the biggest things you you took away from George?
SPEAKER_03Um, I think the biggest thing was, you know, for him to have been coaching as long as he, I mean, he still is coaching at Loyola.
SPEAKER_01Um one of the most overqualified uh he loves it. Non-head coaches in the country.
SPEAKER_03Like I don't have to do paperwork, I just go to practice and go home. I'm like, there you go.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um but I think his ability to balance being a coach and being a person and being a dad and a husband and a son, like just seeing how well he managed that. Um, and that's what he said to like that was the way he stayed in it so long is he he had that balance and he modeled it really well for the team too. Like you can't just be a swimmer and go to school, especially at a place like you know, Hopkins or an MIT. Like, you gotta have a life outside of that. I mean, anywhere, to be honest, but especially at places with like that academic, and that's that's their focus. And so he would do the same thing. And he would, um, when I was there, his daughter Catherine, she was a senior in high school, so it was her last year home. So he wanted to go to every lacrosse game that she played in um and would leave me to run workouts. And so also just you know, instilling that trust in me as an assistant, I think allowed me to see how much buy-in that gives someone in a program. He's not just giving me workouts and saying, here, do this. He's like, Danny, I'm not gonna be here. You write the workout, let's collaborate on it, but you're gonna be the one running it. So if something, you know, you need to modify, I want you to feel confident in that. And so he just, you know, gave me a lot of responsibility coming in, and especially like the men had always excelled at Hopkins and the women were always, you know, placing lower. And you know, the year after I left Hopkins was the year the women won every relay. And so at NC2As, and that was pretty cool to see. Um, so I think again, it's down to like George just really setting a great example of that balance of yes, you're a coach, but there's other things you are, and just modeling to like giving responsibility out and you know, take accountability for it and things like that. But he was just a great role model in a lot of different ways.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I wonder what you what was your perception of him before going there? Because you swam at Kenyon, right? And yeah, and like I guess more so on the men's side, but in that time period that you swam at Kenyon, like Johns Hopkins was the other school that was constantly threatening to sort of upset the the the streak, right? Um so what kind of like as an athlete, what kind of perception did you have of him as a coach? You're just like, oh, that's the guy who coaches Johns Hopkins, or like what did you think?
SPEAKER_03What did you I didn't I didn't know too much? I'll be honest, I lent leaned on Jim Steen. So I had coached at Carthage for two years um with Gregor Hart. So got a lot of good exposures on college swimming.com was starting. So I was cold calling all those profiles that are now a thing. I was that person cold calling to set those up. So I got to know some coaches that way, which was pretty cool. Um, but when I knew I wanted to continue in coaching after I finished my master's degree, um, I called Jim Steen and was like, Where would you direct me to apply? And he knew that George had an opening at Hopkins. Um, so it was really more to be honest, Jim Steen directing me that way. Um But of course, I valued his opinion. And then once I got to know the program, and of course I knew the school, um, but I didn't know it too much from, you know, I knew it from a swimming perspective, but I knew it more from an academic perspective. Yeah. Um, because again, the women were good when I swam, but I think the men were were more of the competition and it was a split meet then, so we didn't see too much of the men. Right. Um, but I just knew it was a very reputable school, had a strong swimming program. And for me, that was the path that I knew as a coach I wanted to take. And so it just seemed like a great fit for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think, I mean, if I look at your coaching resume, you you've coached at like if you just look at the uh US News and World Report list of uh top universities, like you've coached at a lot of them, Danny. Um was that something was that purposeful? I mean, did you seek out places that just like forget about swimming academically? Like these are just world-class institutions that you worked at. Was that was that valuable to you in in some way?
SPEAKER_03I think it is. I think especially being at Hopkins, that's something I learned. And George was great about like, you know, learn your non-negotiables as a coach. And I think one for me that just became important while I was there was I I did, I appreciated their life outside of swimming and knowing their careers that they would have once swimming was over. Um, and so for me as a coach, that just became something I got very invested in. And I also like for me, one of my big values is to keep learning, which is why I'm at Cal now. Um, and so I think I just I just really do appreciate the athlete that values that educational part of their experience and has goals, obviously the greatest goals in the pool, but also are they valuing education or clubs and things like that outside of the water? I think that makes them a more well-rounded person and prepares them for life, you know, after school.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, talk to me a little bit about making that leap from MIT. I mean, you're you're you you've become a head coach of a combined uh men's and women's program. The team is just just again, my uh biased opinion. The team did amazing while you were at MIT. You had a lot of success. I mean, and a lot of really high-end performance uh at the D3 level. Um, you know, people that uh that, you know, despite pursuing something really sort of tough academically and all the restrictions you have in division three, are basically performing at a division one level at MIT, right? Um and I think uh, you know, people who don't like I grew up in the in the Boston area, people who maybe are not from the area, like might assume that MIT, oh God, it's so easy to coach there. Like, you know, you just get everybody who I know you see you're doing the chuckle again because so you know exactly what I'm talking about. Like it's actually a very, very challenging place to coach, right? Um, because uh, you know, it they they really value um they have they have a really strong value of stuff that will come before sports, right? You know, like you got to be successful at this, and then and then and then we can be great at sports too, and they have done great. Um but what you know, you're you're you're in that position, you're a head coach. Uh theoretically, you know, as successful as you were, you probably could have continued doing that for as long as you wanted to do. What motivated you to want to come to Cal? You said you said learning, but was that it? I mean, what what really sort of pushed you to go for something more?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know, like you said, I was happy at MIT. Obviously, it had its challenges, but I personally envisioned myself being there for the rest of my career. Um, and then when this opportunity came up, it was kind of in the back of my brain. I I just wanted to explore it. And that's kind of was my my idea all through my coaching career, and it's clearly not over yet, but you know, that's I I just wanted to look into it. And once I came out and saw Cal and met Terry and met the team, um I just knew like if I wanted to keep growing personally and as a coach, like I couldn't pass this up. Um, and I I credit my uh athletic director that I had at the time at MIT and she asked me a bunch of questions and to help me, you know, really analyze is this something that I want to do? And you know, the biggest one is she said, is this opportunity ever gonna come up again? And I was like, I can't for certain say that it will. And so she really pushed me to, you know, look at that hard. And once I I got to know Terry more, and I'll be honest, I didn't know too much about Terry before I before I interviewed, you know, you know who she is in theory, but um I think just getting to live it and it always seemed like this far off land, cow swimming and all this stuff. Um, so again, once I got just a few days there, I just knew like this was this was something that I felt I needed and something it was gonna be a challenge for me, and that excited me in a different way than the challenges I was having at MIT. And who knows where this will lead to next. But for me personally, I just felt like this was an opportunity I couldn't pass up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh you you talk about, you know, like you you didn't know Terry that well. And I think there's there's plenty of people just because of how much she's accomplished in her coaching career, and so she's she's a well-known name, right? There's probably a lot of people who have an idea of who Terry McKeever is, but they don't know her. Um, I wouldn't say I'm like somebody who knows her super well. I've talked with her again a few times and exchanged some emails here and then I'm more of an admirer than than than a friend. Um she's sort of my idol, but uh like what is for for people who are from the outside looking in, what were some of the things that um that maybe people don't know about Terry that you've gotten to experience on the inside? Shareables, you know, like I understand probably some of this is is is private, but you know, what what are some of the things that it's actually like versus maybe you know what people are looking at from the outside and perceiving things to be there?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um I think the biggest thing and something we talk about a lot on the team in general is just you know, she always has the best team's interests at at heart. Like we're always talking about assuming positive intent. And she knows that like sometimes, you know, she she can be tough, but that's who Terry is. But we have conversations, like she's tough out of love, and she's never like she's not gonna push that to a place where someone's gonna break. Um, I think she she does a great job of knowing, you know, again, like I talked earlier, but like it's very individualized. Some people need a little more of that, you know, boost, and some people need that tough love. And I think, you know, she does a great job of it, but at the end of the day, she really is a compassionate and caring person and she wants the best for everybody and she she's there for them in a heartbeat. Um, and again, it might not always come across that way, like you said. I mean, people see things from the outside, but I think once you get on the inside, like she'll have your back 110% every time. And she she is very comforting. And I mean, she has been a great resource for me. And I know past coaches that have worked with her and past athletes, like alumni, they they love her to death. And it is just, you know, there's there's gonna be the tough times, but there's the great times too. And that's I think that's really what it's about. It's not always gonna be rainbows and butterflies, you know.
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah, no, I mean, I I I had heard people, you know, people had told me, like, oh, she's she's kind of standoffish. And when I was on deck at at Pac-12s, like I don't, I thought she couldn't have been a warmer person in terms of somebody that like walked onto the pool deck and said, Hey, how you doing today? You know, and so so yeah, there's people that that ask you that question and it's it's like a drive-by, like, hey, how you doing? Okay, okay, good. All right, see you later. She seemed like the type of person who's like, I really would like to know how are how are you right now? Um, and I could see that she was having that conversation all across the pool deck.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, she's all about relationships. Like you just have to. I mean, I think with anybody there can be a good time to try and strike a conversation and not a good time. Like I've been that person that's like, all right, not right now. Um, but I mean, again, I would say like she wants to get to know people, she wants to talk. She's a lifelong learner, like she wanted to be a teacher. So if you have an idea, like, I mean, you know, Milt, like that's where the two of them together is like sometimes they're the craziest ideas, and then when it clicks, you're like, oh my god, this is genius. And you know, like that's what she like, that's what I've also appreciated about her is I mean, she's been coaching for as long as she has, and she'll still come to me with for like asking for ideas and asking for help and her willingness to just reach out and listen to the team. Like, if something's not going well, like again, you said after that relay, we sat together as a team, was like, all right, what can we do? Yeah, it's not just like we're doing what Terry wants to do. Like, she is very collaborative and she's very much willing to hear people out. Again, with the idea that it's the best interest of the team and the best interest of like the more she knows, the better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think it takes a lot of courage to to coach that collaboratively. Like, I think that there you you'll I know that the higher level that I got to, the more I felt pressure that I had to somehow exert my will on what was happening, you know. And I I I I think it really does take some um, as I said, courage or bravery or whatever you want to call it to just be able to like bring people into the process and and have it be something that you know you're doing one-to-one or one to a big group or a group working together. So um, okay, the last thing I want to ask you about, Danny, is is recruiting. I mean you mentioned off the top you got 14 freshmen coming in. So something is going really well in terms of recruiting. I thought I haven't looked at the full list of 14, but um, you know, I I think that I I I know some of the highlights of it. So I know there's a lot uh excitement going on there. I'm really curious um because like I, you know, Virginia has just won uh their national championship. And I think we've seen on the college landscape um Virginia and NC State be very, very successful in recruiting um their their their recruiting style. Um I I don't even know how to describe it, but like because I because I only hear about it secondhand, right? You know, like um if there if somebody who's from the from Denmark wants to come over to the US, like I usually hear about their recruiting trip to NC State or whatever, and I can assume that that Todd has taken some of that stuff over to Virginia. What what what kind of uh stuff are you doing at Cal to be competitive in recruiting? Um and and you know, compete with other schools at the top. What's what kind of stuff do you think is probably similar? And what do you think that maybe you're doing that is not taking place elsewhere?
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, I mean, I think this year obviously was very different since it's all been virtual.
SPEAKER_00Um but I think the answer to every one of these questions is like uh we're gonna go.
SPEAKER_03This year we're not gonna have a weird year for this, but but I know, but in general, like the 14, I think the biggest piece for us is just finding the right people. And I think once we can get people on campus, I think Cal sells itself. Um, it's a gorgeous school, everything's outside. Um, you're seeing people, you know, all day long. So I think just that environment is something that, like I said, relationships are really important to us. And so just getting that sense of community and getting them on campus, I think is is the biggest thing for us. And we also, I'll be honest, like we don't pressure anybody into a making a commitment to Cal.
SPEAKER_01Um, I can't speak to how other schools do it, but so you don't like you don't give anybody just to explain to people. Yeah. So you don't have to. Like you don't get anybody on the phone, you go, uh, we'll give you, you know, uh $30,000 a year to go, but if you hang up the phone, like that offer's gone. You don't do that. No. Okay.
SPEAKER_03We we tell people, we want you, here's what we can offer you. And you let us know when you've made a decision. And if you need to have a further conversation about what that offer is, we are totally open to having that conversation and see if we can, you know, work things out. Cause if Cal's where you want to be and we want you, we want to make it happen. But we're not gonna give you a time window, we're not gonna give you, you know, which. I mean, I think that's also kind of how it works when you're here. Like we said we put the accountability on the team and we want the collaboration and we don't want to pressure anybody into making a decision. Um we want them to come accountable knowing this was their choice and they've exhausted all of their resources and culture ones are here. So, you know, for us that's not really what we're about. We want the people here that want to be here. Um I think our processes we want people that know what they want and you know, put it on the side if this is what they want to do and not make it more of a one-way tree.
SPEAKER_01I I think it's I think what you're pointing at though, there's sort of like two sides of a coin here. And I I thought about this a lot when I was last a college coach, which now has been eight years, so it's you know, it's almost ancient history in terms of uh college coaching and stuff. But you know, like I I was at Georgia Tech and I I was recruiting, and it was sort of like you could look at recruiting as how can I convince the best possible athletes to come to Georgia Tech? That's sort of one recruiting approach. Um and then I think the recruiting approach that you're referring to is how can I find the best possible athletes who actually want to like who's the best thing for them would be to come account. You know what I mean? So you know that, like, for instance, I would look for kids at Georgia Tech is particularly like it's basically almost as pointless to be a liberal artist major. But you know, people who really wanted to study biomedical engineering, I think I think it's a great option for you. Like you're gonna be really happy here, regardless of how fast you swim. And oh, by the way, though, the fact that you're really happy that you're going here like that, that will help you to be more successful in swimming. That to me, you can correct me if I'm wrong, sort of sounds a little bit more like uh what you guys are are trying to do in the recruiting process.
SPEAKER_03And uh having been so successful, she knows what type of person it's gonna take. If we don't feel someone's right and we want the same individual because it's gonna be a trouble. Um take our time. This is the place for you because it's a traditional program. Um somebody's not excited. Um characteristics. You know, just keeping that in mind as well, but we also don't want to rush it. I mean somebody can change a lot and just can change and you know, things like that. So we just want to take the time like you said and just find the right people for cattle. It doesn't have to be the you know, it's a few something fast, and that's what we're really trying to work on in our recruiting.
SPEAKER_01Well, um, I really appreciate all uh that you shared with me here. Um I uh I I think you were willing to face down some some tough questions um and with not a lot of time uh to prepare for them. So uh my hat's off to you, Danny. Um I remain a fan, and uh thanks for being willing to come on here and talk through some of this with me.
SPEAKER_03You're welcome. Glad to be here, and thanks for having me.