Bonus Pod: A Day With Greg Meehan

Recapping the day I spent following around USA Swimming National Team Director Greg Meehan at last week’s Indy Pro Series event.

Bonus Pod: A Day with Greg Meehan Chris DeSantis

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I'm Chris DeSantis, and today I have a solo brief to you, one of these where it's just going to be me on the podcast, and uh I want to start by giving everybody a quick update on where the podcast is right now, and then I want to talk about an experience that I had recently that I've promised to put on a podcast, which is I was at the Indianapolis Pro Series Swim Meet last week. I got to shadow national team director, USA swimming national team director, Greg Meehan, for the entire day. And I want to talk to you about what I observed, my thoughts, everything in between. So I'm really excited to share both with you. And I think probably many longtime listeners, maybe even new listeners, have noticed that there is change afoot with the podcast. Something, something like a switch just kind of flipped. And I'll tell you a story as a way of introducing it. I'm I'm on the pool deck at uh the Indianapolis Pro Series, and I'm talking to Gary Taylor. He's an assistant coach. I think he's actually the associate head coach at University of Virginia. Gary and I know each other from way back in the day. Um Todd DeSorbo walks up behind me, the head coach of University of Virginia, six six-time uh women's NCAA champions, and he says to me, by the way, Chris, I'll do an interview. Okay, so so Todd volunteered himself up for an interview, and I think that's my way of telling you as listeners that in the near future there are gonna be some titans of the U.S. coaching world coming on this podcast. I've just earlier today, as I'm recording this, I've put uh 90 minutes in the books with David Marsh. Dave Salo is coming up next week. I've got Margot Gere from Alabama on the books, uh, Brendan Hansen from USA Swimming is uh working to help me get something set up with Eddie Reese. Uh, Jack Bowerly is someone that Brendan, I think, is gonna help me get connected to as well. So we are we are going for it guest-wise here on the podcast. And I'm really excited to bring those conversations to you. I'm really excited about what's going on with the podcast. And I'm really excited, by the way, just in case you guys think that's all the podcast is going to be from this point forward, but don't you worry, there will still be guests that you know are just people that maybe you not you haven't heard of as much, but I think have something really, really valuable to share with our community, and I will be pulling that out for you and putting that here on the podcast. And so before I get into this access that I got with Greg Meehan, I want to ask you, the listeners to the podcast, to please donate to this. I'm I'm doing a donation drive for the podcast. So if you go to Christycoach.com, there is a link on the front page. There's a link on the podcast tab, support the podcast. So you have the ability to make a one-time donation here to this. And you know, by doing so, you're gonna help keep this podcast going, help keep some of the momentum going. And frankly, I've sort of made the decision that I don't really want to go down the road of having advertisers. I've said no to a lot of people, guys, in terms of advertising. I'm I'm honestly I'm tired of uh fielding inquiries in that regard. I and the the reason for that is mainly because a lot of the products that you know want to advertise in this space, they're just not ones I can authentically endorse. So I don't end up endorsing them. I want to try to support this through you, the listener. And I want to be explicit about it. I have zero intention of somehow paywalling or putting this podcast behind some access wall. You will be able to continue listening to this podcast for free. If you don't want to donate, you'll have no shade thrown at you by me. But I am asking for donations. Things like the the trip that I'm going to talk about today, the day that I spent and the insight that I got from talking to Greg. That was a completely self-financed trip just on flights and hotels alone. I was in over $1,000 on that trip. So and by the way, I'm happy to do it. I had an awesome time, as you'll hear about in a second. I had an awesome experience, but I could use some support in keeping this podcast going. And I'm really proud of what we've put forth here, what I've been able to accomplish and the quality of guests and quality of conversation that I've been bringing to you. So please support the podcast. Uh, and then let's get into my day with Greg. So I'm gonna talk about this in three parts. The first is I want to just give you some overall impressions that I had of Greg from having spent both a full preliminary, full final session just kind of hovering around him. Sometimes it was the two of us talking, sometimes a lot of the times it was me listening into a conversation that he was having, some of the other people that I met in the process. I want to talk about what kind of impression I got from what kinds of things Greg was talking about, where I see focus on his end. What are some of his priorities? What are some of the things that he is trying to push forward in that role? And then finally, I want to offer a little bit of analysis on the other end and just talk about what I see as some of the challenges. And, you know, in my role where I am a consultant, I work with clubs, I coach coaches and I coach athletes as well. I think about this a lot, right? That's just sort of naturally oriented to how I think. I don't just want to observe. I try to think about, okay, what's what's coming down the line and how can we prepare for it? And of course, my mind was naturally going there as I'm as I'm spending the day with Greg. So let's talk about my overall impressions first. What I will say more than anything is, and this is just a warning to the audience, I've never claimed to be an objective journalist. I've never even really claimed to be a journalist, but I guess I I am. I guess I should admit that I am media in some shape or form. I was at this meet on a media pass, and I am completely unable to be objective about Greg because I really like him. At this point, that's that's my opinion. I really, really like him. I think he is in some ways benefiting from the fact that in my lifetime, there has never been anybody as engaging and open and friendly in that position, at least not to me. Maybe other people have had a different experience, but I have not experienced anybody, I think even this event. The fact that he was just kind of willing to let me be there and let me sit in on all these conversations, and he seemed quite comfortable, right? I think that's very, very revealing. Um, I'm maybe going to talk about that when I in a second talk about what his uh what I see as his strengths. But I think that is absolutely one of them is that he's really comfortable being open. And I think that if you have like a if you have some insecurity about what you're doing, you would never agree to invite me in. Um I mean, I have a reputation for being uh a person who sniffs out BS. I'm I can be really critical at times, especially towards USA swimming. I can imagine there's still some people in the comms department there at USA swimming who probably have some trepidation about being around. You guys should calm down for now because I really like the new CEO, Kevin Ring. I really like Greg, and I really like some of the other people that I met over the course of getting a little bit more access. Let me talk about what else I see, as I said earlier, about uh Greg's strengths. I think number one, what he has going for him in that position is it's pretty clear to me. This is also from conversations around the pool deck. And I mean, this is there was a lot of the elite of United States swimming present at the meet. He has got the respect of top-level coaches in the United States. I mean, the the the top, top level, right? The people that have been on Olympic coaching staffs, quite naturally, because of what Greg has accomplished, see him as one of them. Okay. And uh, I think that's a huge asset to him. I think he, as I said earlier, he is he's got good social skills. I mean, I and I I don't I don't think that can be I don't think that can be overrated. It's actually really, really important in what he's doing. He's got a sense of humor, he's adaptable to different people, different, you know, different kinds of personalities. On the other end, the more stoic types, the more kind of like like me, a little bit sarcastic, jokey types. He's a really curious guy. I saw him asking a lot of questions. He asked me a lot of questions, which I wasn't necessarily prepared for, but uh of course I was flattered to be asked some questions, but I think that's just kind of how he is, right? He's he's the type of person who I think he's got some really strong opinions of what he thinks. It's not that, but he he definitely is also always in that kind of what can I learn mode. Uh the second, or the third thing, I think I've already listed two things as strengths for him. The third thing I think he has going for him is that I think the people that work for him, the people that work with him genuinely seem to like him. Okay. And again, I I think I'm pretty good at sniffing that out. And, you know, also people in the swimming community are like the worst gossip, so there probably would be a little bit more smoke out there if that were not true. And I had the chance to meet Kim Williams as well. She's a director and and coach on the national team, Yuri Sugiyama, his his new hires that he's brought on as national team coaches. And it seemed pretty clear to me that not only, you know, do those people like him, but people that were around him at Stanford. I had a chance to talk to Dan Schemmel, the men's coach at Stanford. He had really positive things to say about Greg. So just so you know, Greg, Dan is saying nice things about you behind your back if you're listening to this right now. And so, you know, I think that that says something, right? That he's been able to operate in these really competitive environments on the on the high end, but he's been able to come out of it, you know, with the people that have been around him genuinely having positive vibes towards him. Let me talk about Kim for a second, because she was omnipresent pretty much as I was hanging out there as well. Yuri was up in the depths of the stands with Corey Manley, who's been a guest on this podcast as well. They were they were filming races and providing race analysis. So I didn't get a chance to talk to them very much. I sort of at the end of the meet, I snuck up there and hung out with those guys for a little while, talked to, you know, another friend of the podcast, Joel Schinnefeld. But, you know, Kim was not somebody that I knew at all going into this. And so I had zero impression of her going into it. And I got a really favorable view into her having spent the day with her, also. I found her to be really confident and really assertive. And I think, you know, one of the reasons I point that out is she's she's younger. I mean, she's younger than me, which means she's really, really young. And but, you know, she's not somebody with like a lot of coaching experience, but she seemed quite assertive and, you know, was taking herself into that role with a with she's taking it really seriously, and she's looking to contribute in multiple areas. She does have some logistical portion under her purview, but I don't think that she is gonna just be restricted to kind of overseeing logistical parts of that role. All right. Let's talk about where I see the focus. I've been thinking a lot about this uh since I left, and you know, have spurred even more on by having spoken to David Marsh earlier today. This podcast will come out in advance of my podcast with Marsh. And one of the questions that I posed to him on there is, you know, he was also a finalist for the position, was was seeking to have the same job as Greg. And I wanted to know, you know, when he got to the interview process, what was he presenting in there as areas of development? And what I think is really interesting is a lot of the stuff that I'm gonna talk about in terms of where I see Greg's focus, uh, David had a focus on as well. Now the details are would probably be different. I mean, I don't want to say that they're they're the exact same. And I think I'd be doing a, I would be discrediting both of them by saying that, but you know, they are both quite interested in technology, data analysis, and investment in sort of leveling up the technical level and the sort of the contributing sports science level of what we're doing. You can see that in the hire of Corey Manley and where Yuri was putting his focus. As I said, those guys were up and uh focused on getting some data analysis, some race analysis out in the context of the meet. Greg spoke to me and said that they are in the process, USA swimming, of acquiring some kind of software. I want to say it's AI-based software, don't quote me on that, uh, that will be able to provide, you know, all eight lanes and essentially real-time data analysis to people, I'm assuming, you know, that have athletes competing at national level events and at a minimum our national team, right? And I think that's exciting. I look forward to seeing what that is. You know, w we should always judge these things when we see them in person, but it it, you know, and and I want to put this in the context of like, again, I only got a snap snapshot into a day. So I don't want people to think that based on what I saw on the day, that's what Greg does every other day. This is what I saw him doing in the context of that day. We did have some conversations here and there about the bigger picture. I get the sense, and I have had this sense ever since he came on the podcast that Greg very much wants to be hands-on with every coach and athlete on the national team. I remember when I had him on the podcast, he was talking about getting out into the environments, the national team environments, listening, finding out what the needs of those athletes and coaches are. He said he's pretty much done with that project. And I saw him having conversations with athletes, having conversations with coaches all throughout the day. And so to me, he is very much treating it in a certain respect like if you're on the national team, I'm a part of what you're doing. He's very, very hands-on in that respect. Now, the the a lot of the conversations with athletes, I would say, to the extent that he was giving feedback, it was it was technical feedback, as far as I could tell. When he got into the conversations with coaches, that's where things were broadening out to, you know, he was offering his input on technique, but he was also, I think, taking in a lot from the coaches, trying to get some context for, you know, what are you doing with this athlete? What's their training environment like? What was their preparation like for this meet and that end of it? But again, very hands-on, and there's a particular focus, at least in this specific setting, on the technical end of it. John T. Skinner is somebody who's previously been involved in a role like that at USA Swimming. He's back as a consultant. He was on deck at the meet. He was providing technical feedback to athletes as well. And and so to me, it's clear that there is an emphasis, at least in in this kind of competition setting, on that end of it. Okay. Let me talk about what I see as some of the challenges. Now I've, you know, I've spent this talking about what Greg's strengths are, talking about some of the other things that he's got going on, some of the areas where I see the focus. And, you know, I present this as like no matter what I said in those first two sections, right? There will be challenges. I think we all have to recognize it. There's no path that somebody in his position can choose where there will not be potential pitfalls to that path. And, you know, to the extent that you understand those, then you have the opportunity to plan for them, to account for them, to, you know, prepare strategies for making the most, perhaps, of what some of those challenges are. So let me just talk about a few of them that I see. And I'll start where I finished in terms of talking about Greg's focus. I think that if you're in his position and you really want to get into the weeds with national team athletes, with coaches, I think very naturally he's running the risk of being criticized for not being focused on the bigger picture, right? There will be, if things are not going well, I'm just anticipating one of the critiques that will be out there, right? If if you know our already, I think in a world next world championships or the next pan packs fall short of people's expectations. There could be people saying, you know, like you could just let these athletes be, let these coaches be. You know, you're the you're the director. You gotta take a step back. You gotta be focused more on the bigger picture. I think he's also running into a really challenging environment. I didn't see any evidence of this, but I can imagine that there are gonna be coaches who are maybe not gonna like what kind of feedback he's given to the athletes, or worse yet, like feel threatened by the fact that he's kind of stepping in and talking with it. You know, so the the the negative narrative that could form around that would be like, you know, now we've got this national. I'm laughing because I, you know, think about like where people probably are are currently criticizing the previous national team director, Lindsay Banko, that, you know, she was not really coaching or acting as a a coach in that role, you know, the narrative can shift to the other direction, right? And people can say, oh, that you know, this national team director, he's he's meddling, he's actually making my job harder by being involved. Can't he, again, can't he just stay out of it and you know focus on some administrative task up at the national team level? I don't, you know, I don't need him engaged um with these athletes. I don't agree with that criticism. Uh, you know, it's not one that I would make. Now I've made myself accountable, now I can't do it. Shoot. But I'm just saying that is something that I could anticipate. And the last one is, you know, talk about the kind of loyalty that Greg has inspired among people who are working with him, under people who are working for him, the potential pitfall with that, and I have seen this quite a few times, especially in the USA swimming context, is that, you know, a loyalty within an inner circle can devolve into an interior-facing culture. So if you have really good relationships with the people inside, you know, on the inside, as you perhaps begin to be criticized from the outside, it is great to be able to have people who, you know, you see every day who can tell you, like, hey man, you know that's not really, you know, that that you that's not really fair what they're saying. But you do also have to, in some ways, be, I don't want to say responsive, but you have to be aware of what the conversation is outside the organization, and you have to take it seriously. You, you, you, you risk, you know, with a a loyal in-group just going like, oh, you know, all those people on the outside. And I I spoke to one USA summing employee. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna put them on blast. Um, this is just an anonymous comment. You know, sharing some version of something that I've heard forever, which is, you know, people who criticize us from the outside, like they just don't really, they don't know. They have no idea what we're doing. If you don't take that seriously, what you do risk is seeming totally out of touch with everybody on the outside, right? And that can really, really hurt you in terms of exerting leadership, especially in a giant, unwieldy, you know, organization, um, conglomeration of people and teams and coaches that, you know, USA swimming is. And so do I do I think that should be a concern? I think that's a balancing act for sure for a Greg Ton Navigate in the role that he has. But honestly, I think he's really well equipped to it. Something that uh where I kind of want to leave this and uh and again betray my lack of objectivity. I just think he's really, really good at absorbing those critiques from the outside, taking them seriously, but also, you know, not sort of coming undone um and getting really defensive or, you know, turtling up kind of in in the face of those. He he he's got some reps in terms of staying focused on what he's trying to accomplish next and what he's trying to do next, and you know, what is the bigger picture for, you know, a sequence of events that will lead to what he's trying to accomplish. And uh I, you know, again, I find myself personally inspired by him. I really enjoyed spending this time around him, and I enjoyed the opportunity to get to be there and to bring this information back to you. Guys, I hope you enjoyed this podcast. I'm not gonna say anything else except that uh to to give you one more reminder about the pledge drive. Go to the website, chrisdcoach.com. You can support the podcast. I really appreciate whatever amount you want to throw in. Again, it's if it's more than zero, I really appreciate it. If it's zero, feel free to keep listening. I love you too. And if you want to get in contact with me, you can go to that website, chrisdcoach.com. You can email me, crdesantis at gmail.com, or you can go on Instagram, Chris D underscore coach.com. You can find clips of this podcast. I started putting some other content up there as well. A lot of it is aimed at coaches, insights that I'm getting from my work with coaches that I'm bringing to you. So, like I said, go to any of those places if you want to get in contact with me, if you want to suggest a guest, if you just want to say, hey, I listen to the podcast, and here's what I think. I love getting feedback as well. So I appreciate hearing from each and every one of you. I appreciate when I run into people away at meets like I just did this past week. And uh, you know, you just come up and say hi. So thank you all for listening, and I will be back very soon with even more great podcasts for you, the listener.