Debrief: Dave Durden

Dave Durden joins to discuss how he approaches his unconventional start at Cal and his approaches to recruiting and hiring.

Debrief: Dave Durden Chris DeSantis

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Hello, and welcome to the swim brief. I'm Chris DeSantis, and it is my pleasure to welcome to you today on the debrief, where we go deep on somebody in the community, try to learn from them, try to try to pick a few things up, especially for the audience. My second favorite Dave in college swimming, the six-time national championship coach of the University of California, Berkeley Bears, Dave Durden. Dave, how are you? I'm good. How are you? And by the way, anyone who wants to guess who my favorite Dave is, uh, the first person listening to this podcast that uh reaches out to me and gives me their guess, you can you can win a prize. No, no shade at you, Dave.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

What's the uh what's the prize? Because I want to I want to be involved in the guessing. I feel like I can get get in early.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

There's a there's a lot to choose from, right? I mean, uh I'm trying to track down Marsh to peer appear on this podcast. It's not him, by the way, because he won't respond to any of my emails, Dave. Yeah, you're not gonna get him on an email, so don't worry. Even even before he retired, he was not available on email.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

I'll give you a quick story. I know this is kind of getting off topic already, but when I when I got into college coaching, I was I started out working a working club with Dave Salo at uh at at Irvine Nova Aquatics. That's why I went to school, was UC Irvine, swam with Dave in the summertime, very, very different training style philosophy than my sort of upbringing and and club swimming. And I loved it. I thought it was amazing. And uh as I was making that transition from uh a normal, uh a normal working regular stiff with my degree in electrical engineering from UC Irvine and working at Western Digital, I I wanted to uh I sought out Dave Salo's advice on trying to get into college coaching and and what that looked like. And and he, you know, being uh, you know, kind of just uh one of the one of the best coaches of all time, but also just uh you know, having his PhD in in exercise science, exercise physiology. Uh he talked about getting the the sort of the educational background that I needed in order to be on the deck coaching. And so I sought out graduate assistant uh uh positions and I sent David Marsh an email. And knowing David as well as I know him now, after 26 years of of knowing David, the same problem that you're having in him responding to an email, he actually responded very like I caught him at the right time, at the right day, very you know, it was very you know serendipitous. So I'm very grateful for that. I'm very grateful that he answered that uh that email because uh like uh like you're experiencing, there's a lot of times that he doesn't uh he doesn't answer emails. But it is fun to to to to work with David because you get communication in several different mediums. So you'll get it via email, via WhatsApp, via a text, via a text through his email. It's like I don't know how he does all this stuff, but I think there's so many ways to get a hold of him. Don't do email. That's probably the worst one. Send him a direct message on one of the you know several Instagram accounts that he has, and hopefully he'll get back to you. Okay, we're gonna you're gonna help me out after this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

We're gonna figure that part out. We can get that done. But uh now I'm gonna force you to stop filibustering, and and that's actually a pretty good story. Uh but let's let's get back on task. You know, usually in the beginning of these, I'm going, you know, biographical. Honestly, like if you're in my audience, my audience, which is 90% made up of, I think, like the hardcore fans of the sport, swim coaches, I think they probably know something about you and and your background. So I want to get right into, I think, some more meatier topics. And one of them is this. When I I find myself thinking about this a lot more as well as I as I move into middle age, right? I'm thinking back to the beginning of my coaching career. And a lot of people I talk to, they go, you know, they they agree with me that like you have this kind of peak I know everything moment very early in your coaching career, and you, you know, you're just thinking like, I've got it all figured out. And then you kind of enter this valley and you start gradually coming out of it. What I'm curious about is in particular when people start and become a head coach of a program, that can be your first opportunity. You're like, I'm finally off the chain. I can finally implement my ideas, right? What's something that, you know, if we flash all the way back to the dawn of you coaching at Cal, that you were like, oh man, I can't wait to do this. This is going to be so amazing. And now you look back and go, I I totally disagree with what I was thinking there.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Yeah. I mean, that's a good question. I I think the the the the benefit for me prior uh to coming to Cal is when I started at uh at Maryland in in the fall of 2005 as a head coach. And I think that was my okay, I'm off the chain, I can do what I want. Yeah. And I think that was a good sort of soft entry for me coming to Cal because I felt like in the fall of 2005 when I stepped on campus. So I'm I mean, I'm sorry if I'm not answering your question directly as it relates to Cal, but I think it's important to for me to remember back to the fall of 2005 when I went into the University of Maryland and was on campus. It's like, okay, I'm coming from this, you know, program at Auburn that's won six national titles in five years. You know, I felt a huge part of that success, so along with the the coaching staff. But, you know, being a a lot younger, you just feel like I'm doing all these things in order to help these athletes get faster. I'm gonna, you know, walk into the to campus, walk into the room, walk onto the pool deck at Maryland, and these athletes, I'm gonna tell them like this is what it takes to be a high-level athlete, and and you're gonna do it. Right. So I wasn't necessarily looking for buy-in. I was basically telling them what to do. And I learned pretty quickly that that was probably a little heavy-handed. And when I two years later, when I started at Cal, I I wanted to look at buy-in. It's like, okay, what what what have you guys done that has helped you be so successful? Really recognize the success that they've had. And they had a lot of it with with Nort for a long period of time. So being respectful of that, being respectful of Mike Bottom and and and the and the work that he's done. And how could I how could I complement that? And I was very fortunate to have a group of seniors, a large group of seniors that, you know, a little bit different than than the athletes at Maryland that were that, you know, I remember distinctly at Maryland, the athletes are, well, we don't want to hear what you were doing at Auburn. And not necessarily in those words, but we we don't want to hear that. We, you know, but at Cal, you know, they were like, no, why why are they, you know, why are they so successful? Why are they winning? And so that was a a nice sort of uh this is a nice way for me to come in and have a group of of older athletes that were, no, we we we want to learn, we want to understand, we want to get better, we want to accomplish the things uh collegiately that uh that Auburn was doing at the time in the in the in the 2000s era. So it uh I definitely came in a little bit um a little bit softer, a little bit more reserved. Now you know, probably the intent of the question is a little more in the in the physiological of okay, hey, what what uh what are you doing as a coach that that's different now than uh than you were doing you know in 2007? You know, there's there's not there's not uh I don't want to say there's not a heck of a whole lot, but because there is, but it's all these little subtle changes along the way from 2007 to 2026 that that we have done. How we simply how we write a workout, you know, before I just used to be headstrong in the idea of like, okay, I have my workout book, that's where I write it in, and I can tweak it and change it. And now, like as as we you know, as we get into an age of of of artificial intelligence, like you know, artificial intelligence is is really hard to read a workout book. It's a heck of a lot easier to take it from a from a doc, uh, from an electronic document and and filter it and throw that into. So we've, you know, we I've been very diligent about how we record workouts. Uh and I didn't used to think that that was a big deal in in recording workouts or in writing down workouts. I used to be a little bit more extemporaneous and sort of let the workout evolve organically as we move through a session and things that I would see and pick up on. I still do that to an extent now, but there's more of a structure in place. And so I'm a little more organized when we come down to the pool deck. And again, that way it it allows me to a little bit watch workout a little bit more and a little more intently rather than trying to figure out the next set because I have the next thing that we want to do, the next thing, the next thing. So just really sort of visualizing the workout before it happens uh before getting down to the pool deck is something that's is is very different than when I started. I used to be, when I'm when you're when I was younger, I used to be a little bit more uh on top of those things. And and my the you know, my my memory, all my neurons was were firing. As you get a little bit older, that slows down a little bit. And so I need to be, you know, have a little more time, be a little more thoughtful before we before I get down to the pool deck in and and what I'm doing and how I'm doing it. So that was a long answer to your short question, but you're gonna have a couple of those throughout this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yeah, we call it filibustering on here. Um you've already done it twice, but I I appreciate the depth, and I I honestly like question-wise, I don't want to say that I get bored with some of the physiological stuff, but I think it gets discussed in a lot of other forums, and I'm always more interested in kind of what you're talking about, which is taking a step back from that and and discussing sort of what is your process to coming to some of those physiological decisions. One follow-up that I have to ask because I I just I'm thinking about it, and I don't mean to catch you off guard with this because it's not it's not completely on the outline that I sent you ahead of time, but I I had forgotten that you were coaching at Maryland. That's something I forgot in writing this outline. And I think back on that moment, and the l farther we get from it, the the stranger it seems in a way. Like, I don't know if you do you ever you have that story about contacting Dave Marsh. That seems like a serendipitous moment. Do you ever like look at the you know, the hiring in the offseason and think, wow, I mean, like Cal really took a chance. Not that you didn't have a pedigree, but you know, I mean, Maryland, you were they took a chance.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

I mean, I mean, you it was like a 10th place ACC team that you were coaching in terms of men swimming, and then you're out at Cal. It turns out to be a very good chance that they took. It paid off for them, absolutely. But I mean, do you ever sort of reflect on how unusual that was in terms of the way hiring usually goes?

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah, uh quite often, yeah. You know, I'm I'm so I'm very grateful for you, you know, to to to to be in the position that that I am, but also understanding that you know, I I think at the time, just in terms of age, right? I mean, I I was 31 at the time, two years, two years experience as a head coach, you know, four years of experience prior to that as an assistant coach. And you can say, you know, I think at some point in time I may have gotten a title shift from assistant coach to assistant head or associate, whatever, you know, however we do it now to show growth and promotion, right? And and then a a year as a graduate assistant. So it was you know, seven years of of experience of that, and and and even if you take that one further step back, you know, one year of experience in a in a very very minimized role as a club coach and really just being Dave's assistant and you know, whatever Dave needed, I I I did pretty much. So so yeah, yeah, I mean, I understand the uh just the like why that shouldn't have happened, uh, you know, for all the reasons. Uh and I try not to go back and ask, hey, why did you guys hire me? Yeah, you know, so I just I'm just gonna leave that, leave that be and and just continue to to to to to come at it in in the same way that I did in 2007. You know, I every every year is a little bit different with the personality and the personnel that you have walking through the door and and trying to have that buy-in initially with a with a group of newcomers and and just listen rather than say, hey, this is this is what we need to do. Yeah, it's I it you know, I I I think the the athlete has to has to have that that that want and that desire to to to be an elite level. And of course I I I know that that we have a have a team full of those, have a team full of those that we recruit. And so it's it's very helpful, but it's but it's also one thing to say it and it's another it's another thing for an athlete to to to to to live out those actions and and how how do we bridge that? Yeah, you know, how do how do I how do I how am I the the vehicle to make sure that what they say they want to do and then that their actions, attitudes, behaviors, and choices are consistent with what they want to accomplish. So that's that's you know, that's that's my simple role in it.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah. I think I sort of want to highlight it for people because I think sometimes hiring gets formulaic and we start looking at it like a math problem, and we go, like, you know, you gotta hire for this position, let's find the assistant from the comparable school and like sort of give them this slight promotion over here, or we gotta find a head coach, let's find the associate head coaches, you know, that we can and it's just like it's it's there's potential if you think a little bit more create creatively than that. Sure. And I I don't know that people always did that. Okay, next question. Um as we record this earlier today, uh I am unfortunately on social media because I, you know, like everybody else, I use it to promote some of the stuff that we do. But I I saw a post actually that didn't make me angry and and made me happy. And I was reflecting on why. Uh it was it was Greg Troy. Abby Fish has done this thing where she's got Greg, uh, who's a longtime coach of University of Florida, won a national title there at Florida, mentoring some younger coaches. And Greg's on there mentoring this actually collegiate assistant coach, I believe, or head coach, and he's talking about reusing practices, essentially like what you're sort of talking about, the the importance of recording what you're doing, being able to refer back to it, and sometimes, you know, like looking back a year and going, we're gonna do the same practice year after year. And my reflection on this was 25-year-old Chris would have watched that video and been like, what an old fart, you know, stupid, uncreative dinosaur, terrible, you know? And 42-year-old Chris is like, a man, I love, I love listening to the wisdom of Greg Troy. This is amazing. I love it. So this is the question I pose to you. What are some old school ideas in swimming that you think perhaps have gotten a bad rap?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Yeah, uh, you know, that was my answer. You know, is is this and I'll maybe state it in a different way, but it it is the idea of doing sets, doing sets repetitively, you know, not necessarily looking at it to show progress, but but you know, knowing that an athlete can get better, better at at doing a a workout. You know, our whole goal is for an athlete to get better at doing a particular race. And and so we, you know, we we it's amazing how many times or how few times I should say we actually have them do that race throughout the course uh of a year. And it's so difficult in this day and age, as you mentioned, social media for to challenge athletes in a in a rate in a competitive environment to have them think about a race in a different way, to have them be a little bit vulnerable in some areas with the idea that they may not have success in in that swim because they are um, you know, they're trying to take it out faster, or they're trying to negative split it, or they're, you know, whatever it is in terms of the process that you're trying to help them gain experience in that particular race for fear of, oh, this person is washed, oh, this person's no good, oh, this person's, you know, it's blah, blah, blah. It's like, you know, I it's unfortunate because swimmers do, uh, or some swimmers do, you know, get get lost in some of the comments. Some of them use it as fuel, but it's it, it, it takes emotional energy away from really where you're trying to get them to go. And it's the same thing with with workouts. It's the same thing with the set and having them get better at it and keeping simplicity. So the the way that I would answer that question is is sometimes simplicity gets lost for creativity. I think uh there's a lot of coaches that are, you know, that are you know early in their coaching career and are trying to do the the social media practice. And it's like, oh, that's so cool and what they're doing, and they're using this different equipment and using this and doing that and doing that. And sometimes it gets really complex for the swimmer in the water. And you know, if you're trying to think about what's coming up next in the set, then you're probably not thinking about what you need to be doing within the set in order to be better or in order to be faster or in order to have this repeat be a little bit better. So I've found myself in terms of the creativity side of it when I first got into coaching, you know, just had was alongside such a a brilliant individual in in and Dave Salo with that. And and as I um and as I now reflect and and as I've you know been in 26 years in it, I I do value the simplicity of sets. The the the repeating of a workout, yes, but also the simplicity of it. And and and it is if it's if it's a simple type of set, you know, even if it's hey, we want to go eight fiftys on fifty at pace two hundred, it's like there's a simplicity with that. And if we want to repeat that at different times and see how they get better and see where they're falling off at different times, you know, 3100s on 130, or we change around the interval, 2050s on a minute that we that we'll do quite often. We're actually working through a progression of that this summer. So it's there's there's something about the simplicity of that. There's something about the athletes knowing it's coming. I I used to be, you know, and when I first started about talking about, okay, I'm I'm gonna create the workout as we go, but now it's more about they know it the night before, especially in some sets that we're gonna repeat so that they can get emotionally and mentally prepared for it. That's been um, you know, that's been an important shift for me as well from you know, 2007 when I walked in the door.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah, I think it speaks to sometimes you are, I find myself, and and I know a lot of people are like this as well, where you start becoming afraid of the reaction you're going to get, and then you pull back from like it in principle, there should be nothing wrong with the athletes knowing what's coming, right? That in isolation. Now, obviously, like psychologically things can go on with them, but I always find myself trying to pull back to okay, how do we how do we deal with that rather than running away from it, right? Which is which is also what I was doing in a in a phase of my own time when I was constantly winging it. It was like I don't want to deal with the reaction of people, so I'll just wing it, and then they won't know what's coming, and literally because I don't know what's coming, you know? And okay, I want to pivot to some organizational stuff. You know, at the end of this, we're gonna talk about uh what you think the perception of you is. And uh in this question, I have to admit, some of my perception, uh which I don't, you know, I don't know you well, and so I sort of just rely on what everybody else does in a small community, you know, rumor and reputation and all the stuff around here. But you've already spoken to some of it. I think to me, you are developing a reputation, particularly around international swimming, you know, international championships, Olympics, and that stuff as a planner, as an organizer, as somebody who it's not just like about necessarily even making a season plan, but it's it's it's bigger than that in terms of all the little things that you have to organize in order to try to do it. And I think people are probably noticing like little examples, even through the collegiate season decisions you've made around you know who to race and what meets, that's always kind of looking at a bigger picture than maybe necessarily the minutiae of like, oh, we got to meet on Saturday and you know, w we got to do our best in this little sort of short instance. And I preview all that to say as you've coached a Cal uh and you built this team into one that it seems like probably a goal year in, year out is to try and win a national championship, but but you're also trying to prepare athletes for international competition. That to me at least seems obvious. You can you can correct me if I'm wrong on that, but there's a heavy emphasis on that. So I guess my question is what are the organizational challenges that you've faced as your team has grown more and more elite, for lack of a better term?

SPEAKER_00 21:59

I think Yeah, or yeah, organizationally. Yeah, no, it's a good it's a good question 'cause there's so many different ways I could I could answer that. Just give me a few. Yeah. Definitely having high level international athletes and preparing them for different meets in a quad and and just making sure like I you know, I I didn't understand the importance uh, you know, initially as a younger coach, uh the importance of a European championship. It's a it's a huge it's a huge deal for our for our European athletes. And so, you know, preparing preparing those athletes to perform well, swim well at at a European championships, at a uh Pan Pack championships, at a Commonwealth championships, which all are a little bit different in the timing piece of it, that's a challenge. And and that that is something that uh you know that you know now we talk about things that that we're doing differently, and even things that I'm doing differently from last season. I I I typically as a head coach of our organization would meet with our staff. You know, we'd have conversations, but our formalized meetings were were really twice a week. And and it so it wasn't it, we weren't getting bogged down in some of the minutiae that comes with collegiate athletics or with just you know meeting and everyone feeling like, okay, I've got to say something in a meeting. So us a 10-minute meeting goes on for 30 minutes. But now it's we we we meet every day. And sometimes those meetings can go for 45 minutes and sometimes they can go for five minutes. But it but we're making sure that that we're that we're on the same page with all the athletes that that we're coaching, what's coming up, what's coming next, like just so that nothing kind of slips through the through the cracks with it. So I I I think that's been the the challenge organizationally is is just the the plethora of meets that are out there. And we're entering, you know, we're entering a fall now with where we're in the college swim league, where we have a world shore course championships, uh, where we have world uh shore course championships, or excuse me, a world shore course championship trials, and then world shore course championships. So these are these are meets that we have to shift our focus to from a from a physiological level to perform well, which is very different than historically what we have done. I mean, I would say reputationally, like there's the idea that Cal or Dave doesn't care about the fall, the fall meets, fall invites, or whatever. And it's just, and that's not necessarily true, but I think as we organize our season, there's points and times where we want to emphasize certain pieces of our program. Now, whether that's a strength piece on dry land, and then we'll we'll slowly build into this to the swim piece and and the early part of the of the academic year, and then and then start to to to to really do an overload and and and the swimming piece of it. And so we're not necessarily looking for good performances, but but now, Chris, we've if we want to swim well, we've got to swim fast come the end of October for World Shore Course trials. So that that is a little shift for us. And it's it's a perfect timing for us based off of, and you talk about organization and planning, as I as I talked to our athletes uh at the end of NC2A, so in in April, we laid out our April through December so that we could tell them that as we as we came off of a pan packs, a US nationals, a Europeans, the break was a little bit smaller. And this is why. And the workload's gonna be a little bit higher, a little more intense. Our expectation is to swim faster, swim faster in practice, therefore swim faster at meets in the fall, which is not something that we've really emphasized in the past. And the reasoning for that is because everything is shifted, uh shifted up for us, where we we do have a World Shore Course Championship trials, and and we want to put athletes on that team. And we want to and we and we do want to swim fast that World Shore Course Championship. So it's yes, things have have changed and evolved and and and we're we're evolving with it. But your the the the challenge with it is is the the emphasis of meets are are changing. And again, first time and forever that we have a World Shore course trials, right? So we've got to get ready at the end of October, which we really haven't had to do that in the past. And what a better way to do that than CSL to get some high-level racing in going into World Shore Course, even though it's not short meters, but just some high-level racing in prior going into World Shore Course trials is a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah, we haven't even I don't even have talking about CSL here on my outline, uh, but you know, it's striking me that I where I last saw you, you were at the a College Swim Coaches Association annual meeting. And I'm I'm gonna uh flatter you a little bit uh here on the podcast because I've been I I'll tell you what I've been saying about you behind your back since we had that, which is I I really appreciated what you brought to that meeting. Um you were there, you were working on a working group, uh, you know, of course, there's been a lot of coverage around NCAA changes and this college swim league, that's you know, that's sort of tangential or related to some of the changes that are happening on the championship level. And thematically, to me, it's it's along the same lines. And what you said, we you know, I sat and watched this Division I breakout meeting that that went way over, but it was actually we're really good meeting. I mean, I I wish that some of the media that cover what's going on in the NCA had actually been able to like also sit in there, because I think you would have seen that, you know, the conversation in the room was quite a bit more cooperative and collegial than than maybe is sometimes portrayed online. And we got to the end of this meeting and you stood up to everybody and you said, Look, like this is a little bit scary. You know, we we have changes to make, but we can't go back. You know, we we we have to find a way to keep moving forward because you know, if we just sort of stay stuck in this conversation, now I'm paraphrasing a little bit, I don't think you said all this, but like, you know, if we stay stuck trying to like roll this clock back, we're not gonna make the changes that we need to answer some some things that are like existential questions for our sport. You know, I don't want to make everybody terrified, right? But we we we shouldn't take for granted that, you know, especially our sport as we see it right now will just continue to exist in perpetuity if we don't change anything. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

I mean, I you know, I mean, that's that's and and it's the way that we're approaching the season. I mean, it's yes, we we've got to adapt and change for the betterment of our athletes, for the betterment of our program. And you, you know, just going about the season in the same way doesn't necessarily you know, and and we've been fortunate that that we've our our program historically has had good results. And it's and it it's hard as a as a collegiate head coach because everything is moving from how you recruit to the the the numbers on your on your roster to uh your your scholarship limits to now our NC2A championships, to now you know, for for us and the decisions that we've made about CSL, it's like to how we're structuring, how we're structuring a collegiate season. And I would love to sit here and say, like, oh yeah, we've got this all figured out. It's like it no, and it's not so much that we're building the plane as it's flying, that's that it it's not that dramatic, but it it is something that, okay, we we've got to be, we've got to try and be one step ahead of this, of this curve that's coming. And you know, college athletics is is changing. It's not going back. The football structure is not going back, the conference structure is not going back, it's gonna continue to evolve. I I think you know, Herbie had said it in that uh breakout session that the college football playoff has changed pretty much every year, or at least every other year over the last decade. And so they're evolving. Every other college sport is evolving in a way. And so we have to do the same thing. It's it's just we we can't get stuck in the mud and and reminisce of the good old days of, you know, the NC2A meet was three days and we had a prelim 800-free relay and it showed toughness, and you know, it's like, well, that we just can't do that anymore. That's that's just the reality of it.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, I think we're at a critical moment too. This is something I've been saying on here a lot, and we're sort of in a row together moment, and I don't mean that everybody has to cooperate on everything, but I say this as somebody who's, you know, sh been at moments in his career divisive and critical and you know, uh really strong in that. I am feeling like just more inclined to figure out a way to work together and sort of and and be more cooperative because I think there's a lot of projects that are going on right now that deserve a little bit of a benefit of the doubt. And whether it be, you know, what Greg's doing up at the national team level, I just had Kevin Ring, the USA swimming CEO on here, uh Sam over at the College Swim Coaches Association. It's not that I don't think any of these people should be criticized. I mean, that would be very hypocritical of me to say, but I also think it's it's just the atmosphere that I, as I look around, it's a little bit more of a constructive moment. Um let me let me ask you a question about recruiting. Because I I find this really fascinating. I mean, it's not every day that I get to interview somebody who's in contention or winning a national championship on a on a semi-regular basis. I mean, from that position, the sort of quality in terms of how fast people are when they reach your recruiting pool is very, very high, right? But at the same time, if I think, you know, one one trap people can fall into in recruiting is just like, I'll just grab all the kids that are fastest right now. How how do you approach that in terms of because in some ways one could argue that almost everybody you recruit is a pretty well finished product. And the same ways, you know, you want to do what every other coach does you want to develop and stuff. How do you how do you approach that with recruits that are at a very, very high level?

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah. It's um I mean it's a it's a great question, right? Because we're we're recruiting, I mean we're getting ready to as the as the cycle starts uh here on June 15th. The we're we're we're we're trying to recruit athletes to see how they project when they're 18 to 22 years old, fully well knowing that some of our 18-year-olds aren't gonna be finished products. They'll be close, but we we're also also giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are transitioning to a unique environment. You know, most of the athletes that we recruit, it's especially domestically, are you know a top athlete in their pro and their club program are uh you know are are in a in a great home environment where uh their family is is is all into their success. So from the time that they wake up and and in a lot of cases are are driven to practice and and and how they're coached and how they move through their day, and when they you know come home prior to the next practice, and then they go to the next practice and they come home and they're and they're nourished and fed and and loved on is is all like it it's a it's from the time they wake up to the time that they go to that they're going to bed. And all of a sudden they transition to an environment where it that's a little bit different. Not not that that that's there's not elements of that, because there certainly are, but it's coming through their peers where they're where their peers are holding them, holding them accountable, and their peers are saying, okay, this is what we need to do in order to be successful and not necessarily the the adults in the room. And so giving them a little bit of the benefit of the doubt to to kind of navigate that first year, that first year experience, the level of academics, the level of life, the level of lifestyle, and and all the while trying to be even better than where they were when in a lot of cases their environment was uh darn near perfect. You know, even even at the coaching level, the the the the the coaches that uh you know, as as we go out around the country and and and go on and go on decks of of coaches, the the level that these athletes are coached now are extremely high. So we we've really have got we really have to understand where they're coming from and and and knowing that that transition, that that buy-in through their first six weeks, that there's enough elements of of their home environment, of their home club environment, their home practice environment that that that they can kind of lean back on and feel good, like, okay, yeah, this is what helped me swim fast. And it's not completely different, even though almost every area of their life is is completely different. So, like those are the balances and and challenges that you have in recruiting is to see, okay, where's the environment that they're coming from and how can we take elements of that environment and incorporate that into what we're doing so that the this athlete transition into their 18 to 22 years age of swimming is is is a softer entry point. They they take they have confidence and they know that, okay, I'm gonna get better and better and better as I go from freshman to sophomore to junior to senior year. So that that and then there's some environments where we know we can't duplicate it. You know, it's just like how they're coached, what's going on, it's gonna be extremely difficult to to duplicate that environment to help them be better.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Are you gonna tell me what those are on this podcast?

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Don't be very diplomatic with that. But it's but that's that's also like you know that there are programs that are what how they are training their athlete, it's gonna be wow, that's uh that's gonna be really, really difficult to to to duplicate. And and we also know that there's environments that's like, okay, we can we can add a lot to the foundation that has been developed with this athlete, and we get excited about those athletes. So looking beyond the numbers, you know, looking, I I you know, I I I as we've as we've had a couple of different assistants in in this combined setting that have that have moved through our program, and and really some assistants that have moved through our program over the last 19 years, there's there's some that come through and it's like, well, they're ranked this. And it's like, okay, we we got to get away from that idea and and we have to understand the why. Like, why are they going this time? And if it's if it's something that's like, wow, they're going this time, and there's so much more there based off of how we can get them to move, travel underwater, how we can probably increase their stroke rate, how we can put some some some muscle on that, uh, you know, knowing that, okay, you, you know, we're looking at mom and dad, and mom and dad are, you know, 6'6 and and you know, 5'11, and we know that there's still a lot of growth to go. So those are the things that I I think you know, we we tend to we tend to value as as as we go through this recruiting process, especially with especially with 16-year-old kids. My my son is a is is going to be a senior in in high school and he's a he's a track cross-country runner. And you know, even he this last three months has grown three inches. And so it's like trying to find those athletes that are still growing, that have that, have that natural sort of, you know, that natural enhancement that that comes through just puberty and growth, right? Uh so those are things that uh that we are, you know, we talk about enhanced games, they're talking about it in a natural way. You know, they're just going through the the that uh that time in their lives. So it's it it's just really trying to understand that, identify that, take a look at a race, not take a look at the time. Um, you know, we have a young man that's coming in as a sprint freestyler and watching him swim his his race where he's you know 19 low. It's like there's a lot more there just based on the pause that the pause that he had on the blocks, the pause that he had going into the turn, the breakouts that he had. It's like there's a lot more there. And so that that gets exciting rather than just looking at the time and it's like, well, that's a polished version, that's cleaned up. That's that's kind of you know, we're seeing the best of that. So I don't know. That's you know, that that's a a little bit of what we talk through sitting around the table and and just like why, why should we uh recruit this athletes without talking about time? You know, it's like what's the what's the why behind that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

I think you know, some of what you're talking about there of I've called the genetic free ride. And I mean, you know, why not let that work for you as a coach if you feel you can actually identify where there's gonna be improvement without you necessarily having to do much in terms of input, like why not have that? Uh and I think it's especially with coaching men, it's more likely uh that you're gonna, you know, catch some of them on sort of the tail end of that process. You mentioned your assistant coaches in there, and I'm I'm really curious. Again, one of the ideas that people who listen to this podcast and know that I obsess over is kind of the the career progressions, the you know, we had the conversation earlier about you and and coming from Maryland over. I mean, from my from where I'm sitting, your assistant coaching position is like the the launching pad for people. Uh, you know, Greg Greg Meehan is Mihan is the national team director. He was your assistant coach at one point. Uh Yuri, who's also now with the national team, was your assistant coach. Uh Matt Bowe, right, out at Michigan. I mean, now you've got Josh there, and I have to imagine like it's sought after in a way by people who, you know, want to get one of these high-level coaching jobs. Is that intentional or is that just a circumstance?

SPEAKER_00 39:38

I don't I I don't know if it's I mean, I I think the thing that I say intentionally in in in recruiting assistant coaches is that this job has a s has a shelf life. Uh, you know, it's it's really for me, it's kind of in that four to six years, three to five years sort of range, and and I want you to to to be gone. So and you know, I don't know any other way to say it directly, but it's just like, you know, I I I want to make sure that they hear that very clearly. Like I I want to have fresh perspective and and not get bogged down and and just doing something because you know Dave says it's right. I I don't mind, I don't mind the challenge of I I don't think we should do it that way, and and and then have that dialogue as to as to okay, this is why we're doing it. And there are times when an assistant coach will come in and say, well, this is what I did at this program. I thought, and and we'll we'll incorporate that maybe a hundred percent of it exactly the same way, or maybe take the elements that I feel are okay. I I can see that enhancing what we do. But I I do I I I think I'm very clear that I I do want ambitious assistant coaches that that do want to be head coaches, uh, that want to be head coaches of Division I programs. You know, it you know, my path is is is a little bit unique, but it but it was going from a high-level D1 program to a lower level D1 program, a program that had some success on the women's side at the ACC level, but not so much on the men's side. And and then coming into that program and and and and really in my mind, it was I'm gonna be here for for eight to ten years to build this program up before I can look at you know these powerhouse uh you know top five historic programs, you know, Cal being one of them. So it in my mind, it was like the the the timeline was just way off when I got the cow job. But I I want assistance coming in looking to be a head coach and really learning what it's what it takes to be a head coach at at this level. And I I I I feel like there's so many great coaches out there that a lot of times as a head coach of a Division I program, we can sort of just stay within our ranks, stay within the D1 level. I think there's phenomenal coaches at the D2 level, D3 level. I know that as we went through some interviews last summer, that we we we had some coaches out in the uh that are head coaches of programs at the D3 level, at the D2 level, and they're amazing. It's like it's it's it's a so rather than have this idea of, well, I'll just get another assistant from another D1 school, you know, with Yuri coming from the club level and coaching Katie Ladecki was was perfect. Greg, you know, coach being the head coach at Pacific was perfect for us. Uh Chase having experience at Texas as a as a volunteer assistant was was uh was a good fit for us at the time. Josh being a assistant at Tennessee and Matt Kreditch and everything that Matt continues to do at Tennessee was a great fit for us. Uh hiring Noah Yanchulis, I mean, was a perfect fit for us. Um, you know, someone that was, you know, again at a at a D2 level that you know really brought in a different skill set and experience. So these are all like it's fun to see that develop. And then I do think it gets to a to a ceiling where it's like, okay, you're not learning from me anymore. Like go out and and and be a head coach somewhere and learn what that is truly about. Because once you truly sit in that chair, you don't really know. And then once you sit in that chair, you're like, crap, man, this is there's some things here that I've got to deal with that I I didn't have to do as a as an assistant and some conversations I have to have and you know things I have to be thinking about that I would never have thought about being an assistant coach. That's why when I retire, because I know that was one of the questions uh down there, we usually if you think about retirement. I want to retire to an assistant coaching job because then I get just to get to coach, you know. I don't I don't necessarily have to deal with a a lot of the a lot of the things that you that you that that come across your desk as a head coach.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Well, I mean like you had even yeah, you had uh you had Nord Thornton there for part of your tenure, just you know, like coaching breaststrokers kind of on the on the end of his life, right? I mean, he just sort of gradually worked out of coaching. I I'm with you there. I you know, I I think earlier in my life, like I have a dad who's a worker. Alcoholic and he's 78. He he goes to work every day and he's like, I'm gonna work until I die. And sometimes I'm like, Dad, don't you want to retire? Don't you want to like do something else? And he's like, I love going to work. You know, and I and part of me's got some grudging respect. I don't think like if my wife is listening to this, I am gonna slow down and we're gonna enjoy our lives a little bit. I'm not gonna just like work like crazy forever. But I part of me's like, it's it's why not keep, you know, a scaled back version, right? And every head coach that I talked to, I used to work with one, and this was after I'd been a head coach myself. He was like, Chris, never become a head coach. You know, just because it's so it's so stressful when you've been in in and when you get there, you look back at like, man, assistant coaching, that was just like pure fun. You didn't think that, right, when you were an assistant coach. Let me let me get to these personal questions. Yeah, let's let's let's get to this piece of it. Uh how do you think you're perceived publicly? And what do people what do you think people assume about you that's couldn't be farther from the truth?

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Yeah, that's a great question. Uh and I don't I don't know if I have the answer to that, Chris. I I really don't. I mean, I but I think uh I think now and I'll I'll go back to the College Sum Coaches Association and and going and and and being on a working group and and talking about uh you know the the D1 meet and how we can make that better. I think now I I realize that that I've been in the sport long enough and I've had enough success that and I don't say this arrogantly or egotistically at all, but it's like, okay, my my voice has some weight to it. And like I never thought that at all until very, very recently, especially as we made the changes with the D1 meet. And and I could sit there and and be a be a coach that would just, you know, kind of throw stones at it, or I can be involved in it. And and so I asked Sam to be involved in this working group, you know, because it was like, hey, I I feel like I can add some some some value uh to this now. And I generally don't like being on on committees. I generally don't like yeah correct, right? I I think there's maybe a small subset that really does. Yeah. But if I'm gonna be on it, I'm gonna make it my my time effective on it. And so it may come across curt and and harsh and and and some things where I just feel like I need to stay on task. And again, like I I don't like 30-minute meetings that can take 10 minutes. And so it's just like, let's let's get to the to the meat of things. It's the same thing with workouts. It's like I don't like you know, running an an hour workout that can take 45 minutes. Let's just make it take 45 minutes. Yeah, you know, let's be organized, let's, let's, let's be intentional with what we do. So I I feel like now I'm I'm in a spot and it's still it doesn't feel comfortable to me uh to to to be in that spot of standing up in front of that room and and telling a lot of coaches that I that and not really telling, but just talking to a lot of coaches in a in a space where it's like this is where I feel our sport needs to move. Like I wouldn't have felt that that was my position and role, you know, a year ago, two years ago, three years ago. But I've under I'm I understand that as I as I get to, you know, definitely over the halfway point of my career as a as a head coach, that's like that, that's where I need to move a little bit more and and just be thoughtful in that and not be flippant in that. And so uh understand that what I say has meaning. So if I am going to be critical of something, I need to be very thoughtful in my critique of it and not just be, hey, I don't like this, I think it's dumb. You know, I need to I need to to to understand my my stance on it because I do feel like my voice has a little more weight than than you know it it did, you know, a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, five years ago, six years ago, ten years ago.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Yeah. I mean, I I think I I unintentionally teed you up for that by telling you that I had really thought a lot about what you said at the end. It was like the perfect hammer for that meeting, and it it did, you uh, you know, just so you don't have to be the one to say it, it did to me carry weight in that moment. I would supply one for you in terms of misunderstanding, and I hope it's come across to people listening to this podcast. Uh when I was prepping for this, I talked to Tracy Slesser, and she had a perfect quote about you, and she said, uh, Dave takes what he does like really seriously. He does not take himself seriously, right? And I think for people who don't know you, and I don't know you that well, but they probably can listen to this and see I've been comfortable enough joking around with you, uh, both because I think there's no doubt that when you're being sincere, when you're talking about something that you're really passionate about, that that is 100% genuine. But I think what one of the risks, you know, as you're progressing to this stage in career, is people can start to like kind of move you into this uh mythical status where like, oh my God, I I can't, you know, I gotta be so serious when I talk to Dave, if I see him, if I ever get the chance. And that's that's not actually your personality.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

That's the one thing I'm scared of, right? Is being pushed into that because it's really not it's not a fun, comfortable spot for me to be in. Like I I mean, in very simple terms, I I love coaching, right? I I I love that piece of it. There's so much that goes into it that you just can't say, I go down to the deck and I coach. There's so much that goes goes into what the meaning of of coaching is. And and that's like I'm still like everybody in that pursuit of trying to help athletes get better and help athletes get faster. And, you know, like I'm I'm just committed to that, but also understanding that I'm working with 18 to 22 year olds, that I still feel like I'm not 18 to 22, but it's also like I still feel like I'm in my 20s, you know, even though I have not, I had to make the commitment to like getting readers, which is like, man, you know, it's like you know, so it's like it's all these little little reminders that are like uh man, I'm I'm I'm getting old or older and I don't like it. I I like just being, you know, being where I was at at Auburn and coaching athletes, or where I was at Maryland and coaching athletes, or where I was starting Cal and coaching athletes. That's I try and create that dynamic amongst our team that's like this is what I enjoy doing. And I I I don't I I don't take myself that serious at all. You know, it's just like I I enjoy the days. And so it's like that's that's the thing that I I I honestly I get to meets and I'm already thinking about the next season because there's things that I'm seeing that our athletes are doing or other athletes are doing. It's like I need to incorporate that, I need to incorporate that, I need to put that in. I need I just love the the the the the you know process gets overused as a as a word, but I enjoy the process of coaching.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Yeah, as we were preparing for this, I was searching my email and I found an email exchange that we had 10 years ago during the brief period that I was writing for swim swam. And I think there was like a Cal Stanford dual meet, and I had to reach out to you for comment about an athlete that wasn't going to swim in the meet, and I was like, oh, you know, he's injured, you know, you want to comment on that. And essentially we had this exchange back and forth. You were like, well, it's actually just, you know, like more like he's got a knee irritation, but uh I love the sound of injury. Do you think we could like, you know, dress it up a little bit? And you and I joked back and forth about, you know, maybe we could change the title to career-ending near knee irritation, you know, it's gonna hold him out of the cowl Stanford beat. Like, that's just to give my audience like that's kind of a flavor of how I would remind myself, like on my end of it, like, hey, you can loosen up a little bit for this. I I know this this Durden podcast is a big one for you, Chris, but you know, you don't have to greet it with like a grim seriousness the whole way through. Let me ask you another question. I got two more left. Yeah, we're gonna get to these quickly and and wrap this up. How do you approach admitting you're wrong? It it depends on on the situation. In some cases, it's just like, you know what?

SPEAKER_00 52:10

And and keep in mind, Kathy's gonna be listening to this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a whole nother conversation of, you know, it's like I just immediately assume that I'm wrong and uh and we'll start from there. And in the case where I'm right, it's like it's a victory, and it's great. You know, so assuming that you're wrong from the very get-go. Yeah. But I I you know, there's times when we run a workout or I'm writing a workout or sets going, it's like it's just not going right. And it's just like you just to stop it and just say, hey, you know what? Not my best effort today. I can admit that. Or you get through the workout and didn't accomplish what uh you know, you know, what visual, you know, sort of as I visualize the workout, like it it didn't, you know, go the exact way that I visually thought it would go. So just kind of pausing for a second and saying, you know, that didn't that didn't go the way I needed it to go, I'll be better tomorrow. So I I I think it's just you know, having somewhat, you know, a kind of a and again, that's that's a that's a workout situation. You know, and and in some ways it's it's just like, yeah, you know, I as as a if you get further away from a decision that you made, you know, months and months and months ago, it's like, yeah, I probably didn't handle that the right way. And and just saying that, yeah, you know, it's like I I had some other things on my on my mind. This is why I made that decision then. And now that as I have some time to reflect on that, it's like I probably would have done this and this differently. But it doesn't mean that I'm I still wasn't mad in the moment or you know, that was the emotion that I that I had associated with that. I I I don't I don't yeah, I I I don't have like a uh a one size fits all answer for that, but I I do think it's just pausing and saying, hey, I I I probably didn't I probably didn't go about that the right way. And just you know, keeping it pretty simple in that way. I I very rarely do I kind of dig in and and and say you know to the person that says, Hey, I I think you're wrong on this, do I dig in and and say, no, you're wrong, you know, and that's and that's where the conversation starts. You know, I just want to make sure that I'm kind of understanding and and and listening to to where they're coming from on it. And you know, if I need to seek uh you know outside help and and and support, it's you know, I I know there's always people that I reach out to. You mentioned Greg Meehan, he's one that I'll reach out to on different in different circumstances. One of my favorite ones that was here uh that I would talk to all the time when he was here coaching was Mike Montgomery, who was our longtime basketball coach at Cal. He was before Cal, he was at the Golden State Warriors. Before the Warriors, he was probably more well known for being the head coach at Stanford. And and Mike Montgomery was just fantastic to talk to as a coach. There's something about talking to other coaches of other sports that gives you a little better perspective on just where you are in your sport. I have a great relationship with our water polo coach coach, Kirk Everest, and it's great talking with him. Our soccer coach here, Neil McGuire, is great to talk to. So Mark Matson, our basketball coach here, is great to talk to. So it's just fun to just to hear it. There's there's nothing like it, to be honest with you. And and there's nothing like talking to a a fellow head coach. So it's just nice to to hear that. It's a good change of pace when you're talking to another head coach from a different sport.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Yeah, they're not caught up in the minutia of of your sport, right? But they're still structurally dealing with some of the same stuff. I think that's really powerful. Okay, and and I will finish with a very powerful question, which you saw ahead of time on the outline. As you've discussed, I mean, you're in the second half of your coaching career, you're you're thinking about your newfound uh position within everything. I want you to flash forward to, you know, whatever form of Dave Durden retirement party we have someday in the future at Cal, and you've got athletes from across all these generations coming up and saying something. What would you like them to say at that?

SPEAKER_00 55:58

Yeah. I mean, just I mean, I I don't I don't know if there's any one thing. I just enjoy hearing the stories that they remember a lot more vividly than I do. And in a lot of ways, it's like, I don't remember doing that at all or remember saying that at all. You know, but it sounds awesome. You know, that sounds great. I think those are the things that I I appreciate. Again, it's not a, and it may sound like a canned answer. I'm not really looking for, hey, you change the trajectory of my life sort of commentary. I I just want, yeah, you know, I just want certainly as athletes and as you mentioned, as you know, athletes that have strands for me that are a little bit older, that can, you know, maybe have a a different, you know, my the my former athletes always, there's certain words that I use and you know, that that that one of them is perspective, you know, that as they get a little bit older, that they have a different perspective of you know who I was as a coach and what I was you know trying to do and you know where I was trying to help them. And and I hope that that you know is something that that that they reflect on and appreciate. And it doesn't have to be with swimming, you you know, it could just be a conversation about career advice. You know, we've we have a handful of handful of athletes that go through an engineering program here, and it's been you know, it's a good 20, you know, 25 years, 26 years since I was an engineer, but just talking about that idea of okay, what's you know, what are things that I should value and and looking at positions, you know, where can I have growth and what companies, etc. Yeah, you know, fortunately I have a have a lot of good uh you know former swimmers that are in those positions in life that I can get them connected with or that I talk with that I can give them some perspective on. But that's what I would that's what I would hope is is it's just like, hey, I I I appreciate my experience now at 42 way more than I did at 22. I don't think at 22 you can put it into, you know, put it into the right, right, into the right words of of what this means. But I'm hoping that they would say at 32 or at 42, at 52, it's like, yeah, I really appreciate it my my experience at Cal more and more the further I've gotten away from it.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Yeah, I I think it's a wonderful way to put it, that that the experience, that the positivity of that experience compounds over time. Perfect place for us to stop. Uh usually I allow people to plug things. I don't know, you want to send people to uh you know the social media pages.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

Uh yeah, so go to all my go to all my social accounts. I'm on, you know, Instagram, I'm on, I don't know what other ones on. I'm and I'd say that jokingly, Chris, because you know that I'm not on any of that at all. Whatsoever. There's nothing to plug for me. There's nothing to follow. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, so no, there's there's nothing to uh to to to plug at all. I appreciate that though. But uh no, I I wouldn't even know where to begin with with things to plug.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Listen, career, you're you're you're I'm looking up to you. It's a career goal. I want to get off social media.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Yeah, yeah, I know. And I re we really should be. I I say we, I should be on it from just to help the continued you know, 24 hour, you know, sort of perception of our of our program. You can do that on Instagram or in different you know, spaces that continually promoting of our program, it does help with recruiting, I guess, but it's just not my uh I just don't feel comfortable doing that. So you know, I have good assistants that do that, which uh which makes it awesome.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Well, you're gonna get the hardcore, as I said, the hardcore coaches, the the hardcore fan base of the sport here on the swim brief. If people want to get in contact with me, if you're a coach, you want coaching, if you're a coach that uh knows an athlete that could benefit from some of the work I do, positive psychology, this, that, and the other, you can reach me, crdesantis at gmail.com. You can go to my website, Christy Coach.com, maybe a brand new website by the time this podcast comes out. Gosh, I hope so. I've been waiting so long for this new website. Instagram, reluctantly, Christy underscore coach. That's a huge plug. Uh thank you everybody for listening. Thank you, Dave, for appearing, and uh I'll be back with you guys again in a week.