Debrief: Cara Stawicki

Former National Team and World Champion rower Cara Stawicki joins to talk shop and even turns the tables on me.

Links for Cara:

Website: https://carastawicki.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/carastawicki/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-stawicki-6059196/

Book a Discovery Call: https://calendly.com/carastawicki/discovery?month=2026-04

Debrief: Cara Stawicki

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I'm Chris DeSantis, and today on the swim brief, I am very excited to bring to you Kara Stowicki. Kara is a former national team level rower for the United States. She won a gold medal, is that correct, at the 2019 World Championships. And now she's a performance and leadership coach. Kara, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Thank you. Yeah, I'm pumped to be here. Super excited for this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Yeah, and we're gonna get we're gonna get into a lot more detail about you and who you are, because I think you're both gonna bring something that listener to this podcast, I don't think that they have ever encountered before. We've definitely never had anybody on the rowing world. And now, like we're cheating a little bit, right? Because you have a little bit of a swimming background. Maybe people will hear about that as well. So that's actually kind of gonna be amazing for this audience, right? A lot of people from the from the swimming world. So you you know their world, but you've you've inhabited a different athletic environment as well. We were just talking in our like, you know, pre-conversation, pre-recording, working up to the last minute what we were gonna do here. And and here's where we decided to start. Carol, will you, for my audience, just give like a little bit of an overview of of how this podcast came to be, how you and I got in contact, and maybe it'll set the table a little bit for some of the stuff that we're going to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I I do just want to make one quick comment about um my swimming background in particular. So I before I started rowing, I was a swimmer. I was a competitive swimmer starting in grade school all the way up through high school. And I transitioned out of elite sport in 20, 2023-ish, 2022, 2023. It w it, you know, it was a it was a process. Um, but I bring that up now because I'm back in the pool. And I will give a shout out to my master swim team, Sarasota Sharks. I swim there and uh joining that organization and being part of a master's swim team, I no longer compete, but being able to show up in this group that has competitive athletes, that has a coach on deck, that has this like training offering did wonders to help me transition out of sport because that's the life I've I've known. You know, you wake up, you, you go to practice. So so yeah, so I'm still am very connected with the swimming world. And to your original question about how this podcast came to be, our good friend and colleague Samantha Livingstone, Sam, connected us by way of me actually reaching out to her. So I believe that was the first time I got introduced to you, Chris. I think I heard you as her guest. And we could give Sam a shout-out too, right? Real, Real Talk Sports Parents, I believe is the name of her podcast. So that's how I first came across your name. And there was between your energy, between the topics that the two of you talked about, there was something that I was just like, I need to, I need to talk to this person. You know, I was just like feeling this vibe. And it's funny because that's actually the exact same way that Sam and I first connected. So for everybody, you know, to know, again, Sam right now I I consider a mentor and a friend and a colleague. She was actually my high performance coach when I was still competing. So I onboarded her around 2018. And I had actually heard her on somebody else's podcast and very distinctly remember just listening to that podcast, and at the end of it being like, I have to, like, I have to speak with this woman. Like she was just saying things and talking on a level that felt like I felt like I could relate to. And, you know, I can only speak for myself. I don't know if this is true for, you know, for everybody, obviously. But I think especially when you're in an elite sports environment and coming up in that kind of environment, and maybe this is true too for even like some not kids athletes, but youth, like that high school collegiate years, even mid-20s, where you're just like, does anybody even understand what I'm feeling, what I'm going through, what it means to be like chasing this big goal at this level? And hearing Sam talk about her experience, I was just like, she gets it. So again, I I have to talk to her. Similar, how I was just like, oh, I gotta talk to Chris. So to bring this all together, and I'm sorry this is getting long-winded, I emailed Sam asking her to just connect us, and she did. And here we are. You know, the first time you and I talked, maybe like two weeks ago, what I thought was gonna be a half an hour conversation ended up being like almost two hours. So I think that kind of like proved that, you know, we have a lot of alignment. And uh yeah, so I'm excited to dive in to see where we're gonna go today.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Yeah, if anyone wants to know what the screening process for the podcast is, a lot of times it is something like this where I get connected with somebody and you know, have like we set up to have a conversation. And if I'm able to kind of go into that time warp where I go, which you describe perfectly, a half hour conversation, whoops, we we talked for two hours, then I'm like, okay, well, this person can definitely be on the podcast. Because first off, I'm gonna enjoy recording it. And second off, I will have no trouble, it won't I'll have no trouble filling the time, right? The the conversation will just flow naturally for the entire way. And I think, honestly, uh, if I could speak for my audience, they can correct me if I'm wrong here. I think that's what people listen to this for, right? We we have some structure, but there's also an aspect of this that is just conversational. Let's take a step back and let's just talk about you and your career. Let's touch a little bit on your athletic career because I am fascinated with your story, and I really want like I I think I told you this when we met and I invited you on in the first place. I'm like, I really want to share your story of being an athlete with my audience because I think it's a very important. There's there's a lot of aspects of it that are actually really important for them to hear. And then let's carry that a little bit into, you know, that, as you said, your transition away, because actually it's quite recent. And so you were an elite athlete well into adulthood, well past the point that actually a lot of people step away. And then you've transitioned quite recently into this, into this role as a coach. And I think you're bringing a very particular lens to that and a very particular viewpoint. And I'm and so like let's finish the story there, right? With with where you're headed with the coaching and and bring us back and talk about yourself specifically. I know we've we've we've touched on some of the swimming stuff, but specifically your your rowing career and how you even got to be an elite international caliber rower.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Where do we start?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

I know. Well, and also too, it's so I did so I'm an 83 baby. I I raced, so 2022 was my last flat water national team, and then I raced not for Teen USA, but at the Coastal World Championships in 2023. So I was lining up um at that level until I was 40 years old, right? 83 to yeah. So it's it's uh so we'll have to um you'll have to help help guide me because there's, you know, that is a very long career and there's there's lots of um points we could touch on.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Well yeah, so like I think part of what fascinates me is, you know, par the the conversation that is happening a lot on this podcast and I that I find myself fascinated with. I had uh I I you actually listened to it, I believe. I had Christopher Henrickson on here. And, you know, he is the sports psychologist, and and so much of his work is built around thinking very sort of strategically about long-term athlete development. And I thought, like, what better story to highlight than one where, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but like you didn't even really get that serious about rowing, or that serious. I don't know how to describe it. I don't want to trivialize what you did up to that point. But you you kept on sort of ramping up your level of engagement post-college, right? Which is a stopping point for most people. Even even most people. I said, like, probably actually a s a select few elite athletes actually go on to Cabinet College and most of them stop at that point. That was like a starting point for you. Why so why don't we even start there? What was the decision like? You finish you finish college and you're like, I got unfinished business, like I'm I'm gonna give it a go and try to see if I can't level up where I am right now.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah. That's uh okay. So that's a great framing and lead up. So if we start there, I think that I think that a lot for me kind of unfolded in those early years. And when I so when now when I'm saying early years, those early post-collegiate years. And I don't necessarily think that I felt like I had unfinished business at that point in time. I definitely felt like I had unfinished business later on. That's why I kept going, like in those later, you know, let's call it like mid to mid 30s, mid to late 30s. I think that post-college, I I had to, I I had to learn the pathway to the national team. Uh quite frankly, what I've been, so we'll, you know, we'll get back to some of like those themes you brought up, but what what I've been coming to learn and appreciate and realize actually in a lot of podcast conversations more recently is so a couple of things. I I went through three consecutive injury rehab cycles in my mid-20s. I was actually out of the boat for close to three years. Now, in the past, I've always brought that up as a way to not highlight, but kind of, you know, bring a little bit more context into why that first national team, why like perhaps why I made my first national team at age 34. That was clearly part of it. So in those mid-20s, when I could and should have been like developing and competing, you know, where I started at the domestic circuit and then worked my way up onto the national team. Like I was actually out of the boat and in the pool, I ironically. Like that's where I went back to. So I started rowing as a walk-on in college my freshman year, so 2001. It was a club crew program at the time. It is now varsity. So Lehigh University is who I rode for. And we did exclusively sweep rowing, so one oar. And I was maybe in a small boat a handful of times. So small boat smaller than an eight, um, just because that's the equipment we had. So I spent my entire collegiate experience rowing eights. You get your boat feel in small boats. I had a job in the suburbs and I was like, like this is near. So boathouse row, one of those like meccas, historic meccas, meccas of rowing. So I saw this opportunity to keep going. Now I had to learn how to skull. So I had no idea.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

I I honestly like it was with two oars to small boat single.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah. So I think like back to, you know, kind of like the path and partly like why I peaked at such a late age was I'm now kind of starting to like realize I you could you could make the argument that I was actually learning a new sport, right? Like going from an eight sweep rowing into this like single where I'm sculling, you get in and you go, you, you realize very fast, you're like, ooh, I don't know what I'm doing. Like you literally have to learn just to like not flip off the dock, right? So so I'm bringing that up in the context of like what you were describing earlier, because those early years post-college, it was, you know, learning the new sport, working through injury, obviously, but almost rekindling or reawakening this like piece of me that I think was either like lost or buried or tucked away somewhere. Because if we bring it back to my swimming days, I was not fast, like objectively speaking. This is not me just being like, oh, I was not fast. Like I was actually not very fast. And I had something planted like this dream in my heart, like I wanted to race for the Olympics, you know, I wanted to go to the Olympics. So I remember watching the 1996 Olympics and swimming that year, right in Atlanta and like seeing, you know, seeing the competition, like seeing the podium finishes. And that that is what I can look back on and say, like, that is what really kind of like sparked that Olympic dream. But over the years, you know, again, that just kind of got like tucked away. There was a club down the row. They had been putting out the lightweight women squad on Tiniose on the national team. You know, there were national team rowers training in that environment. And I think that those early years was a process of starting to see that, like, hey, I can maybe do this too. So first it was a reawakening of like, yes, I want to do this. Then it was kind of starting to see, like, okay, I think I could do it. I think I could do it. Now that was living in here, and here it's a totally different thing when I had to actually like verbalize that to somebody else, you know? So there was this like years and this big long process of just even owning the fact that that's what I wanted and then believing that I could do it. So I don't hopefully that kind of answers some of your question, but that's that was that's what was coming up for me.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

So yeah. Do you know what I you know what I think about too is you tell that story because as you've pointed out, and one of the reasons that we haven't mentioned that you're here is because as we listen to each other's stories, there's just like a lot of resonance between the two of us. I mean, it's I I literally just on a podcast telling people about how I just wasn't, you know, naturally like one of the fastest kids. In fact, I was one of the slowest kids when I started in the sport. But also listening to you say, you know, that at some point, despite not like being, you know, the most talented or the fastest, at some point you dreamed that audacious dream anyway, and you were like, oh gosh, I would love to go to the Olympics, right? This is this is something I would love to accomplish. And I'll I've not been ashamed to admit on this podcast that I I dream that dream too, right? And then I think maybe I'm connecting a few dots. You can, you can, again, you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but then you kind of like we suffer a heartbreak. We realize like it's not as easy as we thought it was gonna be. It's actually like way, way, way, way, way harder. And what's interesting in me about your story is like I think a lot of athletes get to that point. They're first off, they start they have no expectations for themselves, and then those expectations kind of shoot straight to the moon. And then they suffer that heartbreak. And a lot of athletes never get past that point, right? They they from that point forward, from the point they realize, like, actually, I might, I might, I'm not gonna be the best. I'm probably not gonna be the best, right? They they start to guard themselves a little bit and they start to go, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna protect from that heartbreak, because that really hurt to find out, you know, that I I laugh, but like it really hurt. When I found out, Chris, it's just not in the cards for you. You're not even gonna be a national level US athlete. Like you're very, very far away from getting there. That hurt a lot. And I and I, when I reflect back on my career, like I had a lot of moments where I was just kind of protecting against it. And that protection really held me back from reaching my full potential. So I guess what I'm imagining is part of your story, and I'm curious to hear about, was here's somebody who, right, didn't start at the top, dreamed that dream anyway, got hit with reality, maybe like more times than than 99.9% of people, and yet you kept on striving. I mean, it's like the determination to make a national team for the first time when you're 34, even that story you told about like injuries. There's probably a lot of people who were like, hey, you know what? Maybe this is just a sign. You just hang it up. Like you've had a good career, you've accomplished a lot of things, but it's just not for you, right? And and you just kept going. So talk a little bit about that. I mean, am I am I characterizing the story right now?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah, I'm laughing at the like the just kept going. I'm like, yes, I just kept going and going and going and going.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Like, were you just in crazy stubborn, Kara? What's your deal?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Well, I love that word stubborn. So I have Polish roots and I I think that's that's part of the part of this, part of the story here. So so I've I've got I wrote down a couple of keywords, but what it what I want to start with um is I I don't disagree with what you're saying about the heartbreak and the thinking that, oh, this is way harder than I thought. However, I want to add to that because this was the case for me, and I think this is the case for a lot of athletes. Like if we go back to probably more of those high school years, hearing the external noise, hearing the outside influence influences who maybe have the best intentions and are trying to protect you, right? Like, so what what what transition what the transition for me was in high school was, you know, I'm this is not coming from me internally. I'm hearing whether it's from parents or coaches or other people's parents or comments like, you know, on the bus or in the stands, like, okay, maybe the Olympics is not for me. So, okay, so then maybe I'm gonna like shift that dream to let me see if I could swim in college, you know. Let you basically start to kind of like down, I don't know, I hate to say downgrade because I don't like swimming in college is amazing or like doing these other things is amazing, but you're lowering your expectations for yourself. Yes, right. Yes, yeah. So I think that I think that what you're saying is true and I think that and I I think there's this other component, you know, because that that was that was my my particular experience. Well in terms of in terms of so heartbreak in sport is real and I've experienced it many, many, many, many times. I don't think there was ever an instance where I had the thought or kind of conceptualized, like, oh, this is way harder than I thought it was gonna be. I, you know, I will go on the record saying like discipline is my superpower. Like I am a worker. Again, like I'm Polish, right? Both my mom and dad sides. So like I'm not afraid of the work. Plus, I plus I loved it. Like, you know, and this too, at some point we may cross this bridge. Like if what if and when we talk about my work with Sam, like yeah, I always saw myself as a trainer. I loved the work. This actually came into play later on in my my career as, you know, as I am 34, 35, 36, 37, like I can't do, I physically can't do the same amount of work I'm doing when I'm in my 20s. And that was the discipline for me. Like I have to actively intentionally pull back because it's gonna be hurting me to do more. And I love to do it. So this is this is getting on a tangent here. But in terms of like what was keeping me going, another thing that I think I'm more recently coming to gain appreciation for and recognition of is I had an internal drive and an internal fire that was like really hot, you know? And I also probably like a curiosity. I would not have called it curiosity at the time. But if anything, like I was determined to reach what I considered my full potential. Like that was my drive, that was my driving force, let's say. Um, I I think that honestly, I think that was so strong that like that's what in those later years when you're experiencing the setbacks and you're experiencing the heartbreaks, I think that's what kept me going. So I don't know. Does that answer your question? I'm not really sure what what you want to do with that.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

So no, I I I I'm fascinated because I every time you you show me another layer of this, then I'm curious. I get more and more curious about, you know, an aspect of what you're talking about because, you know, I I I understand conceptually what you're talking about in terms of being somebody who really like, for lack of a better description, like loved the process, right? Loved working. But what I've seen in a lot of cases, and like I don't want to gloss over this and I wonder how much insight you have. I hope you have some insight is to this feast because it'll really, really help a lot of people, is with a lot of, you know, I would say, I kind of term them conscientious athletes, the the person that is like on time to practice, at every practice, giving a great effort, people who really are invested in the process. I've seen a lot of them burn out because they're not getting the results that they expect from themselves. And in the story, I mean, you had to hold on to a sense of like there's more, there's more that I'm capable of. I still expect that I'm going to be able to take this to a little bit of a higher level. And yet, you know, you kept that, you kept the integrity of that over a very long period of of time, you know, and I can imagine they were, again, the just with the reality of of becoming an adult, like there was a lot of adult intrusion into everything. So how did you maintain that and avoid I mean, maybe you didn't avoid that pitfall, maybe you did fall into that trap. But like, how did you deal with the tension between being somebody gritty, hardworking, and then maybe not really getting the results that you expected until like you'd invested a lot of time into it?

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Yeah. I'm pausing because I don't know if I have a good answer.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

You're like you're like, that's just who I am, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

No, I'm I I I don't like all right, let's see if we could work through this. So I think that I think that early on now this is this is gonna be independent of that injury period because clearly I was not competing. Now when I started I started a new sport, like I started a new sport, right? Let's just say I started a new sport. I also like rode for a club program. So I'm not coming out of college, like at the top of my game, super fit, knowing how to lift all of these things. So, in terms of not getting the results that I wanted, now I wanted the national team, but and I'm not, I I just wasn't, I I wasn't there. Like it, you know, I just had to like go through a process. So so I was climbing the domestic circuit, right? And there were some little signs along the way. So winning what at the time was, you know, the elite category at the national championship. But you know, the entire structure has changed at this point, but you know, back then. The very so 2013 was the first year that I really like quote unquote went for it. Like I so I raced lightweight, um, which is a category of lightweight and open weight. I went out to Seattle to do the lightweight quad camp, trying to make the lightweight quad. This is my first like real, what I would consider my first real goal at go at national team. Got cut from camp. That was happening in June. Uh, came home, came back to Philadelphia, raced the domestic circuit, went up to Canada to race an event called Canadian Henley. That's kind of, you know, if you don't make national team, that's kind of like, okay, I'm gonna go race Canadian Henley as like my championship of of the summer. Won everything that summer, right? Like won all the races in Philly, won the nationals, like went up to Canada one. So point point being, like, maybe I'm not on national team, but I'm like experiencing results, right? Output from the work I'm putting in, right? So that tackles one point, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah, I'm thinking through all of this. Um maybe there's a piece of this that you don't even recognize from having been so embedded in the rowing world. But like you say, like, I gave my first real go at making the national team, you're 30 years old. In swimming, nobody makes their first go at making the national. They're they're either they've already reached the level well before that, right? Or they're kind of like semi, semi-retired. I it it just doesn't, it doesn't quite compute. And to me, like I've always been fascinated with rowing, because I think rowing in general, not just you, but there are a lot of people that are competing. I mean, I think like how old was Stephen Redgrave when he was still winning uh but I just think that there's it maybe there's something about rowing in it. Bring it back to the kind of where I started this with Christopher Henrickson. Like you you you casually drop stuff like, oh yeah, well, I had to start a whole new sport. And I almost wanted to jokingly ask you, uh, you know, like, but but Kara, how did you get to an elite level? You hadn't been doing it since you were nine, you know, six times a week. How is that possible? Right, but like a little bit sorry, I'm being a little bit cheeky and sarcastic, but like I think there's a couple pieces of the story. Maybe I'm I'm unearthing them. This is like me as a coach, where I'm like, Kara, there's something there that's not like as simple as you're making it sound, right? A lot of people would approach that and go, like, well, there's no hope. There's no way I can be world class at this. I'm I'm picking it up at age 23, you know, that's not possible. And yet you seem to just be like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna take up this new thing. Oh, I don't get the results that I want immediately. Keep trying, you know, keep finding ways, and even, as you said, like reach a point where I can literally cannot train harder than I used to, and yet I'm still gonna try to find a way to get better. Now, like to me, that makes sense because that's something I'm also trying to do now. Like, I'm still competing, I'm still trying to improve, even though I know that I cannot do that by swimming more or lifting hard. I can't train harder. I literally cannot, right? And there's no there's no comparison between me now, also 83, so 42 years old. There's no comp comparison in capacity from 20-year-old me to 42-year-old me. I'm I'm greatly diminished in terms of what I can do. And yet I still think it's possible to squeeze a little bit more, you know, toothpaste out of the tube to borrow an allergy in terms of performance. So I don't know. I'm I'm asking you to examine some things which maybe you just didn't really have much introspection on as you were doing them. You're like, oh yeah, of course I could do this. But like to me, they're not they're not typical. It's not typical that people would do those things.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Well, let me ask you this. So I don't think you're wrong with any anything you're saying. And I I do, I do think I'm I'm learning and unearthing things like now that I'm stepping away from it and quite frankly, having conversations like this, you know. But let me ask you this. So you said you think that you have a little more toothpaste you could squeeze out of the tube. So what what like why? Like what is what is making you feel like that or think that?

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Great question. I'm so glad you gave me the opportunity to answer this because I think this is really important. This is one of those things that, like, gosh, it's I had to learn it by experience. And it's, I think, you know, if I could figure out how to teach people this without them having to learn it by experience, what a gift that would be. But there's one aspect of it. I'll give you the kind of the the the simple version, and then I'll talk a little bit more conceptually about it. But the the simple version is that I tell people as I go, how how am I faster? Like I when I recorded that podcast with Sam, that was back in December. I swam a personal best time in comparison to where I was in college when I was training my hardest. Right. And what I tell people is I'm doing 90% less stupid shit than then. Like I'm I've cut back on my stupidity by 90%. I still have plenty of stupid things that I'm doing that I could probably address, but there's a lot less wasted effort. So even though my capacity is less, I'm also doing a lot less things that are counterproductive to uh making me better. And quite frankly, when I look at like a lot of collegiate athletes, even athletes competing at a very high level, they're simply just like expending a lot of effort on things that they don't need to expend effort on. And in fact, our as you referenced, I think, in your story as well, are we're actually counterproductive. So they're they're doing things that are counterproductive to them as well. And I think when I say I had to learn this by experience, part of it is aging. I mean, you age and like you describe it perfectly, doors just shut. It's not an option. So like it's not a matter of me wanting it, like wanting to train harder. I could, I could force myself to train a lot harder. The results would be horrible. So so I don't. And and so I had to learn it, right? There was no choice if I wanted to keep competing and I still had those really high expectations for myself.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

So what is what is driving you right now?

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Um I think I think honestly, I have unfinished business. So I do think that I have a level that I have always thought I could get to that I haven't got to. And and maybe I've also had to kind of accept like maybe that maybe time has run out. Maybe I'm not gonna get there. But as I referenced this earlier, I had a point in my life where I think I consciously, unconsciously sabotaged myself because I didn't want the heartbreak of really like putting myself into it and and not achieving it. And now I've sort of gotten to a point where I go, it doesn't really matter whether I achieve the thing that I've set myself out to do. It is truly about shooting for it. Like the process of shooting for it, the process of trying to figure out ways to make myself a little bit faster is is what it's all about. And it's not really about if I if I achieve my goal, my goal is like one in a million, and it'll be amazing. And I will cry, like I will cry the moment the moment it it comes, but I'm also I'm not just okay, I'm actually quite happy with just the process of trying to aim for it. And I, if I could like get on my soapbox for another 60 seconds since you're giving me all this opportunity, yeah, Cara. I, especially among my peers as coaches, like I I'm not gonna single who this was uh out, but I was just recently at a conference and I was walking past uh like a vendor table. And there's a vendor there at the event, super friendly guy, big, big person in the sport of swimming, not the guy I recently had on my podcast, so nobody try to guess who this is, but he's actually paying me a compliment. Like he was like, Chris, like, do you I mean, do you actually work or do you just like just work out? You know, like he he was trying to like say I was looking buff, like I was looking good on the thing. But there's a tinge of that where I'm like, the implication is like, what are you doing, man? You're you're 42, you're a coach, you're a dad. Like, this is not you're not supposed to be doing this anymore. And I guess where I turn it around and and try to speak to my audience is like, look, I don't care who you are and what you're doing. Okay, you say to me, I'm not an athlete anymore, I'm not a competitor anymore. You said that, right? That it's not you're not competing right now. You have goals for your body. You have goals, you have things that you want to achieve. Maybe your goal is, you know, I want to be in good health when I'm 70 and I want to be able to still get on an airplane and take a vacation to Europe and, you know, hike, you know, in the Dolomite Mountains, right? Or something like that. Like you have goals. You have things that you want to, and and for me, the goal of trying to push to a higher level in sports, I think feeds what I'm doing coaching-wise. It feeds what I it feeds my relationship. Uh, the most important relationship that I have, my relationship with my wife. I think it's important to that, that I take good care of myself, that I try to be the best version of myself. I think it's important for my kids. So I don't, I don't ever have these moments where I go, like, God, what a waste of time. I'm out here in my home gym, you know, throwing some weights around, or I'm I'm going to the pool. I see it as additive to all other parts of my life. And so why wouldn't I? Like, why, why wouldn't I try to do it? And let me sorry, now you've got me really rolling, Tara. You didn't even know what you were starting, but I I got to the end of it. It's like, it's like part of me realized too, it was a lot of energy to hold myself back. It was, it was like, it was, there was a lot of wasted mental energy telling myself, like, uh, you know, it's over, like, just let it go. I don't want to let it go. I don't. I just don't. Maybe, maybe that's an immaturity, but I don't I I I don't want to let it go.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Do you mind if I ask you one more question?

SPEAKER_01 32:57

I think at this point you've you've half taken over my podcast, so go ahead, do it.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Okay. Well, because I don't want to put pieces together. What what, if anything, are you ultimately trying to find out?

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Wow, that's a really that is a deep, deep question. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

I don't know. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Would it be Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

No, I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Okay. I am so you're talking to a a performance coach here, right? So I I'm I'm I know exactly.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

You're leading me down a path.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

If we were in a coaching session, like I'm very good at silence and I would love to sit here and let you let you mull over that. But for this for the sake of keeping going here, so would it be would it be fair to Well, and first of all, like thank you for sharing all that detail and going into it. It was awesome to just like, you know, hear about how you're approaching this. But I'm curious if it would be fair to say that you feel like you have more to give or more, more left in you, right? More to give. And you're like, right? Is that fair? Like why you're still going at this particular level?

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Yeah, I think I I I like I said, I I think that there's there is a a competitive level that I haven't gotten to that I that I could get to. I take a lot of pride in competing and competitive results. I I think there's an aspect of this as well that's that's I I want to be careful the way I talk about this because the next thing I'm about to say, I can come off like an absolute dick. So I'm just gonna try to say this, this is just for me, this is not me. I'm not like extrapolating this to other people. But for me, I I think it's very important to walk my walk. So, in terms of the way I talk to other people, like I encourage, you know, if I had me as a client, like I would encourage myself to do what I'm doing. So I I don't I like to lead by example, even in the role that I have now. And again, I think there's all sorts of applications for this. I mean, I think as coaches in general, where we can be kind of haunted by stuff that we didn't learn how to get past in our own athletic career. And then it keeps recurring for us with people that we coach. And so to the extent that I can learn to like sort of move past or move through is probably a better term, some of the stuff that that I'm working on and dealing with, I just think like that'll make me better at what I'm doing. It'll it'll enhance my ability to help other people way more than me just kind of like running away from all of that. Um and uh so yeah, that's where I'm at. Well Kara's getting to demonstrate her coaching skills. I think we can tell scrolls for you can tell why. We you can you can tell. This is why, Kara, this is why I love coaches. But this is like people ask me right now, you know, Chris, like, why are you so invested in working with other coaches? Why is that the focus of everything that you're doing? And first off, I think coaches are they are force multipliers in terms of like if you want to make cultural change, coaches are where it's at because they have such a outsized impact on any team, organization, etc. But also I love being around coaches because like they can't help it. They will, if you if you talk to a group of coaches, like I have coaching, I have clients that I coach. They do this to me all the time. They try to flip the tables and start coaching me. And it's actually like a little bit of like an interplay, right? I have to like, okay, no, no, no, you're paying me. Like, stop, stop for a second.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yeah, well, and so I and I appreciate you entertaining the questions and and also I just loved loved hearing all of that. Um, and I would imagine like your listeners are gonna gain so much too. But what something I think I'm hearing is you feel like there's more. And like that is basically like what I was calling like my internal drive in this fire. So to bring it, you know, back to like how we started, which I I don't necessarily know if I was articulating well. I just believed there was more, right? And that that brings in that back to like like reaching my potential, reaching my potential. And I remember, I I actually remember, and this was a pointed question, like Sam asking me one time, like, well, how do you know when you got to you get to your potential? But for me, there was this feeling that I had more. And so while national team was the goal, right, it wasn't like there was there was way more underneath than like, I wanna okay, let me try try to like parse this out because racing for Team USA and ideally like holding the American flag, like hearing the national anthem, and I'm so blessed that I got to experience that moment because that was my dream. Like I wasn't dreaming about getting a gold medal. Like I wanted to be up there. Yeah, like now I'm giving myself goosebumps, like hearing hearing the anthem, like holding the flag. And I so to bring this back to the internal drive, like I had this core belief that I could do it. So, like, if I if I what I considered reached my full potential, like got everything out of myself that I was gonna be able to get there, you know? So it was that was almost like an outward sign of me tapping into like what I thought I had in myself to to, you know, to not give to the sport, but just to like get out of myself as an athlete. So I don't know if this like brings it all together in some way. Um, but that's that's ultimately, I think, for not I think, I know for the longest time what kept me going. And I say I know because there was a moment in 20, 2021, 2022 where for the first time I actually had to sit down and evaluate like what what is my why? Because I believe that I accomplished what I initially set out to do. But I there was still a little bit more I wanted to give, but it was coming from a different place.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

So you you won a gold medal at the world championships, you uh achieved this crazy ambitious goal, and then you kept competing for another four years. What were you what were you competing for?

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Yeah. Well, so it's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Sometimes people just like keep going and they have no idea why.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Well, and that's a fantastic point, and I'm gonna go there. So, so 2019, if we start there, so yes, I got the gold medal, but more importantly, like my partner and I crossed that finish line and like that was it. Like, not only did we execute like what I would consider a textbook race, but that was literally every single thing that I had to give. And I don't know if this is true in swimming, but it was always true in rowing because you're dealing with conditions like you're, I shouldn't say you, for me, I wasn't crossing the line feeling like that was it every single time. So that was also part of what I was chasing. I wanted to be able to cross that line and be like, that was every single thing physically that I had to give. And as you know, and as I I would think most of your athletes know or athletes listening know, you need, you need the mental component in order to like extract that physical component, right? So that was work I'd done up to that point. Now, when you're in this cycle, right? When you're in this cycle, you're thinking Olympics, Olympics, Olympic Olympics. So 2019, 2020, 2020, right? COVID hits, world championships are canceled. You'll have to remind me, like they they held, did they is that when they held they did they move the Olympics to 21, right? So 2021 Olympics were in Tokyo. Yeah. So to your point about like, I was just kind of in this, like, well, I'm not gonna stop now. So there was a couple of years where it's just like, I just, you know, I just kept going. And then really it was in that post-Olympic year going into 22 that I had to sit down. I still felt like I had more, more to give, but it was coming from a different place. That's when I really sat down and was like, what am what am I doing this for? What am I still doing this for? And had to start to unearth like a different purpose because that internal drive and fire that was pushing me initially had shifted.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Like where where was it coming from in that post-period?

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Yeah. So two like two things stand out. I remember like sitting at my desk journaling and tapping into this thread that so I I was so first of all, 2017 World Championships were right here in Sarasota. So my husband and my parents were there. And then so I was fortunate my that all three of them were able to come to all three world worlds that I competed in. So they were there in Linz, Austria in 2019, and then also, so I I raced for the US in 2022 in Flatwater, that was in Rachice. But where was it coming from? So that was part of it. I back to that podium moment. If we want to draw on a story, Margie and I cross the finish line. The very first thing I do is look to the stands to try to find mom, dad, and Kyle, right? So like I knew that this was a source of pride and joy for my family, right? And moments that we could spend and share together. So that that was part of like my new like stated purpose. Another part was I to I wanted to give back to the sport and like the younger generation coming up. I'm a team boat rower at heart. Like love, I mean, love team, like love team in general, but just like love team boats relative to like being out there in the single. That was never driving me at all. The dynamic in my quad in 2017 was not fantastic. As a point of comparison, and this is still one of my favorite race races to date. If we go all the way back to 2002, so I'm a sophomore at Lehigh University, our boat wins Head of the Charles up in Boston, collegiate, women's collegiate eight. I just remember like celebrating that moment with the women in my boat, with our families, with my coach, that drove me for so long, not just that moment, but the way that boat came together. And that's another thing. I was always chasing that slash trying to like cultivate that again because when you're in a boat and you're working together, because it doesn't like the dynamics don't always shake, shake out like that. So given my experience in 2017, given like what I believed a team boat could be, I wanted to both have that experience, I wanted to contribute to cultivating that experience, and I wanted to be able to give that to these younger athletes coming up. So all of those things definitely contribute to driving me um in 202 2022.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Yeah. Okay. There's a lot, I know. No, but I mean, but I haven't even taught to you. I mean, you've you gave a free demo of your coaching, but in the middle of this, on on unprompted, but just just to sort of bring things full circle here, because we've been hearing about so much of your experience as an athlete, and even I've been able to talk about my own experience as an athlete a little bit. And maybe some of the implications for people are are clear what you bring, but as you look To what you're doing now, right? You're working in all kinds of performance environments, right? We're not just, we're not just talking about sports, we're t we're talking about the business world. What do you bring from your experience that you know you think as you look to coach, you say, like, this is I guess this is my vantage point that I that I view performance from or that I view coaching from that I'm that I'm trying to deliver to people that I no, I think that ultimately what I am working to give is through my coaching, working with people in a way that they can build and develop the self-awareness, the confidence, but ultimately the self-trust that they can pursue the big things, follow what's in their heart.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

At the end of the day, like whether it's in the work environment, family, sports, whatever, like, you know, there's vulnerability involved and a risk involved, right? So through through coaching, helping people get really clear on what they want, who they are, who they want to become, right? That piece of the who is left out so frequently. But then also learning how like who they are outside of that performance outcome or that performance metric. Because ultimately, like I believe that that's what's gonna free people people up to get them there, right? So that's doing work with core values, with character strengths, right? I see you smiling. So now I'm curious what's what's coming up for you with with character strengths. Like talking about talking about goal setting in a way that um is additive and not, you know, this is this is a whole nother tangent. And I'd be curious, like I wish somebody talked to me about like vision and goal setting and integrating these other elements. Because do you know what my training journal looked like when I was a kid swimming growing up? Best times, best times, best times. Like the goal was always the next best time. There's so much more to it. And there's there's a way that we can approach something as simple as goal setting with like such a broader, more holistic view that it's gonna set somebody up for success, you know? So yeah, okay, what are you thinking? What was the smile for?

SPEAKER_01 46:24

I'm smile. I'm I have a terrible poker face. This is one of the things that's well known about me. So I don't even try to lie anymore. I'm I'm smiling because, you know, Kara, like it to bring it again full circle from where we were gonna have this conversation. You know, I think you're a kindred spirit. And listening to you talk about the things that you tend to focus on, I think it's so interesting, right? We have this side of ourselves that almost, I don't know, I'll get your perspective on it, but I almost think it's like the marketing side, where even as I introduced I introduced you as a performance coach, right? And I there's a part of me that cringes every time I'm like mental performance coach, right? That's I think I just got introduced as that at something. And the part of me that cringes is embedded in the answer that you just gave. Because we know that performance is the hook that gets people to work with us. And ultimately, it's not like we're just like, you know, a pie in the sky kind of like hugs and and and peace and love people that are just like, just we just want you to be happy no matter what. You know, like we're competitive people. Like you weren't like uh like, you know, I just want to be happy, and you know, if I get last, that's that's fine. You know, like we have that core of competitiveness in us. And yet there's also this awareness, and I I feel this tension all the time. Would love to get your perspective on it, where I'm like marketing stuff on performance, and I know that focusing on performance is not what helps you perform, right? That that having an overriding sort of performance dominance in the way that you think about things is a distraction from all the stuff that you're talking about, right? Which is building this infrastructure underneath that will lead to you performing at your best, but that if but that you won't necessarily feel like you have the time or patience or attention to give if you're like, no, but I have to, you know, I have to perform tomorrow. Like I've got to be at my best tomorrow. I don't have time to focus on my character strengths, Kara. Yeah. You know, like yeah, uh that the uh that is one I think I have had probably, I think is so important, but I've had a hard time getting people to to hook into. So that that's why I was I was smiling. I'm like, whether it's on this podcast or not, I gotta get Kara's tips for I gotta do some uh professional uh cross-referencing and get her tips, see if she's having a little bit more success than I am with some of that stuff. I mean, how do you view all that? That that tension between the performance focus, the the kind of hook that that brings people in, the idea that, like, of course, we are competitive people, and yet sometimes that competitiveness can lead us to be very short-sighted and not really think about what are the underlying constituent pieces that ladder up to good performance. How do you how do you deal with all?

SPEAKER_00 49:24

Yeah, I think um that's a great question. And I I I've thought about this a little bit. I can't say I've put too much like intentional, you know, reflection into it, but I like performance to me, I think is like the container slash like that's just like the way we talk about, talk about it. I hear you on the like sometimes cringing on the mental performance piece. And that's also, and I'll I'll circle back to like your broader question too, but that's also why like recently I've just been saying like executive and mental performance coach, like at the end of the day, like the principles are the same. The language and the container is different, right? Like athletes talk one language and like executives talk talk a different language. I think that in terms of like what you're what you're bringing to the table with, I would I would argue this is more applicable with athletes, like who are like they they've got to step up tomorrow, they gotta step on the block tomorrow, they want this, they're looking for this result next week or they have this important performance next month. I think that's where like the dance comes in with who you're working with. And the way I personally approach that is if I start with somebody and there's a longer runway and a longer time frame, then maybe we do some of that what I would consider foundational work up front. If if there's a longer, if if there's a long runway and there's also, you know, a race or an event that has to happen like four weeks from the time that I start working with somebody, maybe then I just shift things around. So we're doing a little bit of like the foundational work up front, because I I I personally don't like to like leave that totally off the table, but we're also integrating, you know, some tools and tactics that might help serve that person, like, you know, with what they have coming up. So that's that's uh that's how I'd personally like approach that. I don't know, is that answering your question?

SPEAKER_01 51:09

No, yeah. I think I think like it's just it's just a situation where whether you're doing the work that we do or you're somebody that coaches day to day, or honestly, like you're in a leadership position in an office, my wife is an executive. So it's so it's so funny. Like, we're talking coaching every day, her and I, because it's actually, in my opinion, a completely underrated skill in her environment. And she's as she got up to the part of her professional life where she all of a sudden had people reporting into her, that was the moment that she had always been interested in what I was doing. But then she was like, I really need to know what you're doing and how you're doing it, because I think that these situations, they are they are universal. You will find yourself in them no matter what. And so it's worth thinking about how you approach it because for the most part, if you don't, if you don't even attempt to approach it, it's it's gonna be natural in a lot of environments for people to get this urgency and have this urgency, especially let's say performance-related urgency, really kind of sabotage you in the long term. I think a lot, a lot of people are stuck there in that place.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Yeah. And I I also, you know, I I don't know if this directly relates or not, but I but I we can talk more about this sabotaging piece. But the other thing I wanted to contribute is I also personally like don't have a, I don't know, like poor or negative, or I'm not really sure what what word I want to use, but like relationship with the word performance. And and that's that's how I feel about it. I know I've spoken with other coaches who totally stay away from the word performance because it just like doesn't. There's something about it that it that brings up for them. Like I see performance as like this is our opportunity, an individual's opportunity, a team's opportunity to really just like step into that next version of who they want to become, right? Like the these are those moments that give us that. And that's aligned with, you know, what I believe and how I feel about it. And, you know, and that's whether it's marketing or just, you know, copy or whatever I'm doing, like I I have no problem using that word or phrase. Where did I want to go with that? I think I lost my train of thought. So yeah, let me just stop there.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

I agree with you. I I agree with you in terms of the sentiment you just shared about performance. One of the things, just thematically, that I find myself returning to coaching-wise, is I think often, especially when we think about the psychological side of it, we tend to again think kind of reactively. And I'll explain what I mean by that, and I think it connects to what you're saying about performance, is I think everybody's experienced somebody having being really working against themselves psychologically because they have an overriding focus on performance. Now, the response to that, if you think very simplistically about it, is okay, let's de-emphasize performance, right? Because this focus on performance is having a negative impact. I tend to think that is a poor strategy. And I I can kind of hear that you are thinking along the same lines, right? Because it's not that it's it's running away from the term performance is not gonna help us. Whether we like it or not, you're gonna find yourself, again, in situations where you want to perform well. And so the solution to that is to shift your relationship to performance to where it's not something that is impacting you negatively, right? How do you take the things again to sort of broaden this out coaching-wise? I was trying to talk in another audience. Somebody was commenting on, like, Chris, like I find you to be quite vulnerable. I think that's one of the things that hooks people into me, right? I'm I'm pretty open, I'm willing to discuss things about myself. And I said, yeah, at some point along the lines of what I was doing, you know, I realized, like, yeah, I'm just a big sensitive boy. And I thought, how can I make that work for me? Like instead of running away from that and thinking, like, oh, what's wrong with me? I'm so sensitive. I take things, you know, so hard and I and I feel like so passionately in situations, I started to think like, okay, that's who I am. That's that's me. How can I, how can I make that an asset for me? If you're somebody that is competitive, and so you part of that ends up being you care about how you perform in situations, then I think the question is not, you know, one of emphasizing or de-emphasizing performance. The question is how are we gonna make that competitiveness something that lifts you up personally versus becomes self-destructive for you?

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Yeah. Okay. I have two things I wanna I wanna say. So, so, and actually first, I um all right, so in terms of like the vulnerability and like sensitive nature, like let's make sure we circle back to that. How can I make that work for me, right? Because you actually, so in the podcast I listened to this morning, and I can't remember who you were on with, but I'm becoming your super fan, right? So you you touched on this and I I made some notes because I have a lot to say on that. But in terms of like the back to real quick, the performance piece. So what I wrote down is I think ultimately it's how can how can we shift the relationship so performance becomes an expression of who you are and what you've worked for, right? As opposed to, and this is a piece I'm having a hard time putting words behind, but as opposed to like a like a marker of, I don't know, like whether you're successful or not. Like I'm not quite sure of that back end, but do you see the distinction I'm trying to make? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

Yeah. It's not like your your identity is not like how fast you are, right? But it's more like it's almost like the other direction is what you're doing is a representation of who you are versus now. I think we've confused our whole audience. I've confused myself, but I'm I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

And I know what I'm like, yeah, and I know what I'm trying to get at. And like that second piece, the words aren't there. And I will say, like, that is really as an athlete, that is incredibly hard to tap into when you're on the line and to be able to kind of like separate yourself. And I was only able to do it, and I think I did do it successfully, but it was on the back half of my career, on the heels of like that world championship win where I was able to just like go to the line, feel excited, feel fully confident, be like, let's just see what I could do today, you know, as an expression of like all the work that I put into it, who I was, who I was becoming. So I so we'll just can I tell you a story.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

I I think like I have a story that that I think encapsulates this idea. And um, it's a corny story, and it's actually from the meet that I recorded with Sam at where I and and it leads up to this moment where I I go personal best. I was nervous. I get nervous every time I compete. And I one of the things I have learned, uh, because I used to think that was a problem, is I have learned to I've I've retrained my thinking such that every time I get nervous, my next thought is not like, oh shit. My next thought is like good, right? This is good. This is a reflection of my investment, the fact that I really care about what I was doing what I'm doing. I don't get nervous for things that I don't care about, right? So I I have shifted my thinking. But anyway, I was still like I was getting this was like uh I think the first race that I had in the meet. My heart's like beating through my chest. And I'm starting to get a little bit, it's getting into the territory where despite my infrastructure, like I'm getting a little bit scared. And I thought about uh in the fall, I coached my son in flight football. My son's seven years old. It was like the first sport that he ever tried, right? He was so excited to try it. And by the end of the season, he was the only kid I had on my team that was like, don't give me the ball. And, you know, basically it was that he had had all this excitement and then he'd actually gotten out on the field and tried and like, you know, hadn't been immediately successful. So he was he was pulling back, right? He was just like I described earlier, starting to protect. If I don't get the ball, then there's no chance for me to, you know, fail and embarrass myself or don't meet my expectations. But we had a game, you know, that only works on offense, right? So we had a game where, you know, most of these like little like flag football games, the the somebody gets to the outside and they just kind of like, if they can turn the corner, they they run for a touchdown. So the other team, like somebody gets to the outside, they start running down uh down the sideline. And but my son, he's got he's got a line on him, and he like starts just instinctually, he's like trying to catch the kid and he's trying to catch up to him and pull that flag and run. And they're maybe, you know, 10 yards away from the end zone, 10 to 10 to 5, and this is it. This is the last chance he has. My son goes fully horizontal, like lays out his entire body trying to pull this flag, and he doesn't get it. And he I remember I remember his face, I'll never forget it, right? When he stood up from it and he was he was in tears. And I thought, well God, like he fell on the ground, like it must have hurt so bad. And maybe that was a part of it too. But like, as both the coach and his dad, I run over and I'm like, Jacob, what's up? And he's like, I didn't get the flag, dad. And I I thought about that story on the way, like on the walk from the side of the pool up to it, up to race. And I thought to myself, like, Chris, I know you're scared right now. I know there's a part of you that's anticipating maybe you're not gonna, you know, maybe you're not gonna live up to your expectations. What kind of example do you want to set for your son? Are you gonna shrink away from this moment or are you gonna lean into it all the way? And the second I got done thinking about that, it was just like, you know, like I couldn't hear anything. I couldn't, I was in a I was in a sensory deprivation chamber all of a sudden for the continuous of the race. And I I tell that story on on multiple angles, right? Because it comes back to a theme of of what I was saying earlier, which is, you know, I don't I don't view what I'm doing in terms of continuing to swim as like a distraction from the other things I'm doing, right? The emotional resonance of being a dad and and having a son helped me to be a better athlete. And pursuing things in athletics helps me to be a better dad. That this pursuit of something is is like interwoven to all these other parts of my identity. And when I can hook in to the emotion, right, of like something that's like, God, I mean, like being being a dad is on another level of emotionality. I just met a coach at another thing who just became a dad, and I'm like, how overwhelming is it? Because it's I I could never prepare for how how crazily emotional it is, but like if I can hook into that, then all of a sudden what I'm doing, it it it all kind of syncs up and it makes sense together. And I think that I wanted I wanted to tell that story because I think that is that's what we're talking about, right? In terms of of performance, right? It's not about it's not about if I go a fast time, that's who I am, but I put who I am into that race and it made a difference in terms of how I performed.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

Yeah. Who like who who you who you are, who you were, and who you're becoming, right? Through it. And I also want to give that like story a second to breathe because that was awesome. But I so okay, with that, so with the with the story about your son specifically, like the one uh not the one, but like a piece that stood out was when you were telling me that he was like horizontal diving, right? So he to me, I was just like, he g he gave it everything. He gave it everything. Doesn't matter if he grabbed the flag or didn't grab the flag. Like we wanna, like that, that's it. That's what we're all doing. Like that's what we're all trying to do. Hopefully. I mean, maybe some people are genuinely like fixated on that outcome. I'm sure there are, right? I'm I'm sure there are. Sure. Yes. Yes. But but related to this is, and you you mentioned the word or you talked about emotional residence and you said emotion a couple of times, and and I jotted down even before you got there. I think one of the most powerful questions we can ask ourselves, you know, in before performance, whether it's in or outside this container of performance, is how do I want to feel? How do I want to feel at the end? Right. That that drove me, if I can make that specific. Like that's I was never, I was never able to really fully tap into like visualization from like, oh, I'm seeing myself do this. But how imagery and mental imagery like came up for me was I I wanted to feel proud of myself at the end of every race. And if I could tap into that feeling, that's ultimately how I personally got out my best performances. Right. And I think if we broaden this a touch, you know, I like to call this directionality. A lot of us go into whether it's a performance or, you know, I just had a client, you know, in in shoes he was standing in for the first time represent his firm at um at a conference for two days a couple of weeks ago, right? How, how do we want, how do we want to feel at the end of this is gonna help us be able to show up as who, you know, who we want to be. But we're setting, we're setting that direction because otherwise we're going into it, what? And then we can like, we could do the swim, we can go to the conference, all of a sudden it's over and you're just like, what just happened? Right. So setting that, setting that direction. And then the other piece of that too is um it's so easy. We all know how we don't want to feel. It's so easy to name. I don't want to feel anxious, I don't want to feel nervous, I don't want to feel stressed. Okay, how do you want to feel, right? If we can't even name it, how are we supposed to like, you know, cultivate or manifest it? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

And I I love what you said about p like planning on how you wanted to feel at the end because what I've seen and I try to coach people on how to do this, and it actually brings me all the way back to something that Sam told me when I interviewed her for the first time. We're talking way back in like 2017, 2018, which is probably around the time that you guys started working together. You know, she told this story that I've never forgotten, and she talked about like getting to the Olympics and you know, standing up on the podium. And what was her thought? I thought I'd be happier. Like, what why am I not happy right now in this moment? And I think so many times people don't realize that there's some intentionality in there. Like, if you don't plan on being proud of yourself in the future, you won't. You won't. If you don't set that intentionality that, like, okay. Okay, here is here is the conditions under which I will be proud of myself in the future. I'm not saying you can't still sabotage that, but it makes it a lot harder to not be proud of yourself in the future, right? And so so many times we're we're kind of torturing ourselves, right? Because we move from accomplishment to accomplishment without ever taking stock or being kind to ourselves or sort of kind of offering any kind of recognition or having any kind of reflection on all the hard work that we used to get there. But you set an intentionality to that. And then you were way more likely to follow through on the other end. And that is the loop. If I could, if I were analyzing you, Kara, I would say that played a huge part in your longevity because a lot of people don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

Yeah. And um, I mean, there's lots of directions we can go with that. But what you know, one thing that and I would imagine, like, are you familiar with Clifton Strengths in the work that you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:58

Yeah. So, you know, so the description of the the classic achiever, right? You live with this whisper of discontent. And it's so easy. And and I still, you know, I was talking about this with um a fellow coach yesterday. When you're work-oriented, when you're achievement-oriented, when you're when you're just used to like producing, or I guess producing is the right word, but just like pr, you know, a lot of a lot of output, whether it's like training or content or whatever it is, the this is what we do. We go from one thing to the next thing to the next thing to the next thing. And I still, you know, like I I coach around the importance of debriefing and reflection and and having those coaching conversations is certainly like a container for it. But I do the same thing where I'm just like, okay, check the box on this thing, go to the next thing, check the box. So it you do have to really be intentional about like setting that time time aside to do it. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

I'm aware that we've gone like so much longer than I typically go on these. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to bring us to some kind of reasonable conclusion of this. Kara, if if people have been listening to you, if they want to know more about you, if they want to hear you in a different context with a different interviewer, even as you reference, you've been making some other appearances. Direct people where to go if they if they want more Kara stoically in their lives.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

Yeah, of course. Yeah, thank you. Um I would say, well, the quickest and most direct way to uh reach me would I will be happy to share my email. So that's kara at bbravehp.com. So my coaching, well, I'm I'm repping today. My coaching platform is b brave high performance. So again, Kara at bbravehp.com. My website is karaštawicky.com, my name and same thing, that's my handle on Instagram, and then I'm also on LinkedIn. Um in terms of other podcasts, I I do believe it's not fully up to date at the moment, but um there is a landing page on my website that has, you know, uh nice the majority of them chronicled. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:58

Awesome. And we'll be adding this one to that to that list um in the near future. For people who want to get in contact with me, crdesantis at gmail.com, or you can go to christycoach.com. You can go to Instagram, Christy underscore coach. For listeners who want to donate to the podcast, if you go to christycoach.com, scroll to the middle of the page, there's a link to do that. You can feel free to continue listening completely free of charge. It's my gift to you. But if you want to donate and support the effort that goes into, you know, producing this podcast 52 weeks a year. I really appreciate it. And it's always good to hear from somebody that listens and uh gives me a chance to show gratitude back to you as well. Uh thank you, Cara. Thank you so much for everything, for every direction you wanted to go. Thanks for turning the tables and allowing me to talk about some things that, you know, in case people can't tell, I was dying to get them off my chest. So you've been amazing. And uh thank you to everybody for listening. And we'll be back with you again in a week.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:00

Awesome. We did it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:02

We did it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:04

Yeah.