Debrief: Kyle Johnson Returns

An old friend of the podcast, Kyle Johnson, returns to share his wisdom. Kyle also has a podcast, which you can follow for me to be on soon.

Debrief: Kyle Johnson Returns Chris DeSantis

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I'm Chris DeSantis. And this week we are bringing an old friend of the podcast back to the debrief where I interview coaches, sports scientists, soon the CEO of USA Swimming. Sorry to just drop that tease in the announcement of the CEO of USA Swimming, Kevin Ring. Did you ever think we would see a day? My guest today, sorry, Kyle Johnson. Did you ever think we would see a day where the CEO of USA Swimming was coming on my podcast, Kyle?

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Well, considering back when we first talked, but probably eight years ago, and where our conversation was going and how we were concerned about the direction of United States swimming and Asuka and so forth. So yeah, I never thought I'd see the day that she'd be bringing the the big cheese on.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Yeah, put the screws to him. He invited himself on. I don't know if he knows what he's getting himself into. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Well, I never do, anyways, either. So I'm here and it's great to be here and and uh good to see your face. It's been a while. So thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Yeah. Kyle and I were just talking about how last time we came on, I think we titled the podcast something like the uncoach, Kyle Johnson. Are you are you still considering yourself an uncoach or are you are you fully embracing? Are you have you redefined what it means to be a coach and now you're calling yourself a coach coach?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Well, I'd say if we take the un and then kind of put it into unconventional, I can still fit kind of that that brand that's kind of my brand. I I think and I know every coach's journey is unique, but I would venture to say that mine's been a little bit more unique, unconventional, than a lot of swim coaches.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why I'm really excited to have you on here. I'm always excited. It's you know, it's been too long. Eight years is too long to go between hearing from you, because I think, you know, anybody who listens to this, they're gonna get a lot from listening to you. I always learn from listening to you. And I want to thank you also from the top. You supported this podcast for a really long time. You you right now I've been plugging, you know, away people that they can make a donation to the podcast. I hope you don't mind me telling everybody you donated to this podcast for a long time and you did a lot to keep this going and afloat. And I'm really grateful to you for that. And on two levels, because on one thing, like, yeah, like I like money just like everybody else. Money is great, right? But the second level is I really respect you as somebody who I think is really knowledgeable, and that's the that's the person I'm trying to reach with this podcast. So to have the validation of you sending it in, just the like the moral support it gave me over the years was was really, really important. So catch catch people up, Kyle. Just like for somebody who maybe hasn't been listening to the podcast for eight years, just give a like a brief overview of who you are, and then let's let's talk about what's happened in the interim and catch people up on the you know, missing eight years since you were last on here.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Well, I you know, how how far back in the to in back to the future should I go? Um here as don't go prehistoric or anything. In spite of my youthful appearance, I I will be 66 this this summer. Oh, um, so I've had uh many years in this profession, and uh, you know, like m many coaches, we get into it, we don't really choose coaching, it kind of chooses us. And we kind of just start off, you know. I you know, I'm home from uh my sophomore year in college and I'm lifeguarding and kind of trying to train a little bit here and there, and all of a sudden the next day the manager goes, Hey Johnson, you're coaching now. You know, it's at a summer league club and there's 150 kids. I go, All right, let's do this, you know, and I had no I no clue what I'm doing, but just running on adrenaline and and maybe charisma and and uh reputation as a a good swimmer, and so here I am, and you know, just kind of started evolving and and honestly, and I may have talked to you about this before, but I've never been an assistant coach. I've always I probably me my self-esteem was pretty high, so I figured I'm always gonna be a a head coach. So it just kind of led me down, you know. I as a young 20-year-old, I'm trying to apply for jobs, coaching jobs, and of course I'm too young, not enough experience. So I said, well, the hell with that, I'm gonna do something on my own. So I just started the swim teams. Started my first team was at in a Navy base here in Seattle. Gathered up a bunch of summer leaguers and other coaches in the summer league supported it, and they send their kids to me and had about 80 athletes uh right away. And we're we're in a three-lane pool, maybe a 20-yard pool and kind of a bunker at a Navy base and got it going. And and uh of course, about a year into it, the uh Navy base shut down. So I had to kind of pack up and go now what? So I had to find another place. So I found a place that needed a pool manager. So I said, Well, I'm gonna take all my kids over here. This this facility was going under. They were, you know, in you know, the place was falling apart. They were trying to decide whether they're gonna keep it open or not. I said, I'll do it. You know, so I'm I said I I didn't care what it required. I just said, I'm gonna go do this. So I took all my kids and started learning the swim programs, grew the the swim team to about a hundred and oh, probably a hundred and eighty athletes within about three years. And kind of about it, you know, I was a jack of all trades. I was pool manager, uh, you know, um fixing the heat the boiler every day, you know, trying to keep the heat on, keep the water going, the chemistry. You know, it's just I bought myself a coaching job for about seven years. I stuck with it. Kind of like we all did, you know, we're yeah, we're gonna do whatever it takes. And um, so I just, you know, developed athletes. We within a couple years, we'd we won the, you know, we were like third at our LC championships, and I started getting recognition of uh kind of a a good coach so that was very technical. We can talk about that later, but um and then it just kind of wore on me a little bit doing everything. So I I took a position here in where I live right now in Isqua, Washington, and they said they wanted a national team coach. So I said, perfect. I'm just gonna take these. Focus on the fast kids. I got I got this. Right. I don't have to fix the boiler, I don't have to hire lifeguards, you know, and and so I've just and it was it was it was bliss, right? So I'm I have these athletes, and you know, within a year or two we're I'm taking developing these guys and taking kids to trials and I'm coach of the year here, and and um then the you know then the aquatics director, the head coach says, Well, I I can't take this on anymore. I they're making me choose to the to be an aquatic director and not the head coach. And so he had to make a a life choice. And so who do they turn to? Here's Kyle. Okay, now you're the head coach. No, wait a minute. No. No way it's like no, I don't want to. I had a good thing going here. Come on, man. That's good. And so so I had to kind of just it said, well then of course the um as you said, we like money. And so they're everybody loves money. The salary increase was doubled. Okay. So, well, okay. And so I took that on. And and so I had, you know, in kind of the way I've always up until then, I've just was always going, I'll figure it out as I go. I just, you know, I'm running things in with a checkbook and I'll figure it out. Um, but then I had to, you know, as as the timing in the area here in in uh nort uh East Seattle area, the tech boom was happening. We had Microsoft and Google and Amazon and just this explosion of people coming in, and we we only had very limited facilities. And so, you know, I had a from from my history as a coach where I was able to have a uh the luxury of maybe a volume training approach and and not really knowing what I was doing with that, but getting success. And then having to go, well, I can't do that now. So I have to look at uh the way I would describe it as more of a um, you know, optimal model of coaching and that would address maybe uh multiple uh things at once, like like the technical aspect and the training, but in a smaller condensed environment. So I had to really step out of my current model of coaching and start kind of moving out and starting seeking out mentors, asking questions from people that intrigued me. I know that you've had you and Joel Rawlings have talked a lot about uh a mutual acquaintance of ours at Milton Elms. Milton and I have had a relationship uh for 25 years. Uh so I had to kind of look outside of my own box and looking into how to how to create movement and uh effective movement and in a small environment and how to get performance success. And so yeah, and we we started doing well. But I had to force myself to coach other coaches along the way. I had to develop my staff. And I was fortunate because I think out of necessity and in the time, I just hired just good people. People that I think that were teachers, they weren't necessarily swim coaches, they would come in and I go, I I like what you're doing. I coach, yeah, I taught biology before I got married. Uh, you know, I had this, and I had another guy that was the I IT guy at the middle school across the street. And then one of my most valuable coaches along the way was just this young guy that was uh a black belt and karate, and he taught karate. And it had nothing to do with swimming. But we just all came together and molded this system and so we weren't bogged down with kind of the idea of what we had to do and what was the model, what was kind of passed down, you know, the hierarchy and you gotta do one way or the other. We just all collaborated and kind of figured it out as we went and came up with our own, I think, bespoke curriculum. And and how we were gonna do, how are we gonna dress movement, how were we gonna train all these kids? And and we it just grew from about uh about say 150 athletes to close to 300 before I left in back in 2011. And um it was it was amazing. But as most coaches get to, and you guys, you've talked a lot about the mental health coaches and burnout and all the stuff that we have to hold, it kind of caught up with me. And I was still performing or uh producing high performers, but I was run out of gas. I didn't have the balance. And so I I wasn't able to have the energy to maintain kind of the peripheral stuff, the the board of directors, all the stuff that all the hats that coaches wear. And so it caught up to me. And um, yeah, it kind of pushed me out of the out of the job for a while. And it, you know, initially it was uh devastating. But actually it was ever happened. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing for me because then I had to figure it out again. And so it led me into and I, you know, into kind of what I'm very passionate about is just teaching people. And uh and and so I just found found lanes at the at the athletic club. I just started doing the private lesson thing, right? And so and what which kind of was ironically, the kids in the and the families that were in the previous program that I'd left, think, oh great, now we have access to Coach Kyle. You know, and he's that he just coached the national kids. Now we can come see him. So it was good. So it's it helped me to kind of support me in in a transitional phase. And then so kind of led me down to kind of to where almost where we, you know, first got introduced. And I was approached by a very high-level athlete that wanted me to coach her individually. This was Amy Tang, right? Yeah, Amy. You know, she was uh at a period of time where she was uh, you know, she very, very high functioning, very uh talented and and kind of uh for lack of a better term, her her spirit and her her talent was exploited, um, in my opinion, you know, really chucked a lot of volume at her and then tried to train her like a a a college or professional woman swimmer. So, you know, and then got accused that she couldn't handle the load and started breaking down and got accused of being lazy and you know, it was too bad. So I I I found a lot a lot of people found me like Amy that were kind of in a they were hurt. They were crushed. They were kind of like a lot of athletes we see are gonna get parked in a a cul-de-sac of despair a little bit because they was kind of discarded. And so I took her on and as we talked and years ago, and I told her, Grandma, I said, Yeah, if we do this, you gotta be patient. It's gonna take about 18 months, you know, to me to kind of rebuild your health, revive your nervous system, make some movement changes. You gotta you gotta write it out. And then the other variable, most important thing is where are we gonna do this? What pool?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

So and you did this in an endless pool, right? I mean, I I'm remembering the the whole contours of this story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah. So we got it. So once again, it's always something that I say, well, I gotta figure this out. And why not do this? So we we worked out an arrangement where we traded service. Uh, you know, they bought the pool, I trained the the athlete, and then I was able to kind of really kind of get into the weeds about just movement and how how athletes relate in the water and in my backyard. The commute was awesome. I just down the stairs and you know, and and when we talked, it was kind of during that COVID period and uh when pools were shutting down, and um yeah, I was kind of the only ticket in town. And I was like, Yeah, wear your mask, come on in. Whatever. Uh this is and so I was able to really make a lot of money. Um, but also more importantly, I was able to just explore different ideas about how athletes relate to the water and respond to the environment and things like speed and velocity and and quality of movement. So um yeah, and it's kind of and then, you know, just uh as we were talking before we came online, I I was kind of in a place where I'm I'm a snowbird now. Spent about half the year in San Diego, and then I come back here in Israquois. And the good thing about that, Chris, is or interesting is uh the current CEO, head coach of the program that I'd left about 10 years ago, wanted me to come back and educate his staff about what I was doing years ago and what what you know the ideas in the curriculum and the conceptual things. So it was I think really refreshing that one is this his name's Tim Carney, and having the humility, I think, to bring back the former head coach that um you know had high level success here and and he says, we want to kind of put the pieces together. We have pieces of say curriculum or terminology and thing, and but we don't really know what that all means. And so and so they brought me back in and I was able to create a kind of a position for myself uh as a performance consultant. And so essentially, yeah, you know, figuring it out, right? Just rebranding. And uh so that's kind of what kind of brought me in. So I was able to kind of uh create a lot of curiosity in in my style of coaching and and my brand of coaching, and led me to uh some of the one of the staff at the time, he was probably 20 at the time, and very curious dude, and and he's you know very preoccupied and wants to be a great coach. He sits down and he goes, I really like what you're talking about, it's really interesting, but I don't get it. And I said, Well, what don't you get? And so we were sitting down with my wife and we're you know, we're having dinner, and he said, Well, she she came up with this idea. She says, Well, here's here he is, right? Turn on your phone and start talking to him and recording it. And so the idea came out. So this young Andrew's coach says, Hey, let's do a podcast. So I said, What? We can do that.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Wait, so yeah, you were telling me you're on my corner now. You said you were coming, you're coming for the swim brief. We didn't record this part, but you said, Chris, I'm coming for you. I'm coming out.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah, yeah. I said, We're in. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna steal your your uh your audience. No, don't worry about it. So the so we uh so it but it was kind of like so we sat down, I said, What? What do you what do you mean? I I thought it was you know, you know the ins and outs of you know how to do it. Yeah. I said, sure, I'll do it. So I showed up and he plugged me in and we got, you know, and and we did a podcast and said, Oh right, thanks. And then he goes, Well, can you do it again next week? What? Is this a thing? You want what? So anyways, it's we're in our third season. Uh we had three seasons, and uh interesting enough, I think his the name of the podcast is I don't get it. And so it kind of evolved to him asking me questions about you know how to do this coaching thing and you know what I talk about and the tangents I go off in, as you can probably see already.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

But it's been fun. I love the name because as I was thinking about your history and and listening to your story, and as you mentioned, one of the people that we have in common um in terms of some mentorship is Milt Nelms. And one of the things that I have said to people many times over the years is when I first met Milt and you know, Milt would call me on the phone, I would drop everything and start listening to him. And he would uh just let him talk for as long as he wanted to, you know, keep talking. And to be perfectly honest with everybody in my audience, I didn't understand I would estimate probably ninety percent of what Milt was saying to me the first time. And I think it was a lesson for me. I'm so glad that I I kind of stuck with it because I think anything that's really worth learning, you may not get it immediately. You you probably shouldn't get it immediately. Like because if it has some depth to it, it doesn't immediately catch like that. And what I've realized over time is, and people who listen to the podcast know that I quote ideas from Milt all the time. He has ideas that are that have like stuck with me forever, right? Because there's so much depth to them. And um, I think about that a lot. Like I I'm recording this podcast just coming off a conference, and it's definitely been an internal struggle when I go out, for instance, and speak to an audience, you know, because people are like, give us some stuff, you know, give it give us something to take away, you know, give me something that I can run away and use immediately. And I feel that pressure from audiences, but then I'm also thinking, like, honestly, if I give you something really good, you're gonna have to think about it for a while before you do anything with it. Like it's it's not gonna be just like, oh, I listened to Chris for 50 minutes and now I know how to do this. If I if I'm teaching you anything worth actually using, it's gonna take some time. It goes back to what you were saying as well with Amy. Like it's gonna take 18 months, right? This this process and so many of the things that we do in coaching, there's just like like in anything else, also. I mean, it's pretty universal. There's just this universal lack of patience. Now, now, now, we need it now, right? We have so many things available to us immediacy, and everything to me, everything worth doing, everything worth learning about is slow and takes a long time.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah. Let me ask you this. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, I was just saying to to add to that. I you know, and something I picked up from you, I think, and when you and Joel were talking years ago, and you know, I uh people found their way to me in the last 10 years because they had a perception that I was gonna help them technically, you know, I was gonna be this technique guru for them. And I remember you saying, I think it was you kind of didn't you didn't like that word. It was kind of a a a dirty word when somebody said technique or associated with that, you're a technician. And I I felt the same way. It says I I don't want to come across as I'm gonna something's broken, I'm gonna fix it. It's just like I'm gonna give you, and if if I do my job, I'm gonna teach you how to teach yourself. And it's not I'm not gonna give you a hack. You know, you can go get hacks anywhere now. So I'm not gonna do that. We're gonna customize this to the way you're put together, how you move, how you relate to the water, whatever. It's just uh that's that was the way I went about it. And it was hard for some athletes when I was working with athletes, and now working with the coaches, it's the same thing. They want to go, well, give me the recipe. Um another colleague of ours and associate, and somebody has been very influential to me and just a master of uh analies. I my dear friend Alex Nikaton.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

So if you ever talk about him on the podcast so badly, Kyle, and he won't come on. So when you talk to Alex, you need to help me browbeat him into submission.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

I'll work on it. I'll work on it. Okay, but one of the things that always has stuck with me, and and we always talk because I probably we're in this phase of our life, Alex and I are just brothers from another mother, so we're probably on the phone once a week, and we're trading here. I'm working on this project here, and here's the martini recipe of the week, or whatever it is, you know. It's like you know, stuff outside of coaching, but he said he says, well, everybody wants to uh you know just take the recipe, but you have to learn how to cook first and to be able to use the recipe, you know, and so it always stuck with me and among many of the analogies and stories that you know this smartest man in the world I I really think he is, and and just to give him attribution in addition to this cool, you know, life experience he's had. But he, you know, he's been probably the most influential to me on just learning physiology of swimming. And uh really met him early in the 90s and he just sat down with me and started drawing a graph and a little bit of this, and then he goes, here you go. And then I'd yeah, he goes, He probably thought I'd never come back. And then uh next week I see him and with more, you know, and then he sent me more. This is like mid nineties, you know. So we're just you know, you know, how he let me as you know I'm on AOL still, but it would take a while for that little the little emails to go back and forth. But anyways, that little segue there. Sorry, what were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Well, so I'm gonna I'm gonna pick It to this, and I know that you're also, you know, as you said, you're you're doing some education for coaches within the club that you used to work for. You're also out there coaching coaches from around the country, maybe from around the world. I don't know. I want to start on this because I also, you know, obviously, even from this conversation, I think a lot about coach education. It's actually one of the things that I have already pressed the USA. Not to not to make this podcast about the USA swimming CEO, but I got to ask him what's that? I got to ask him a question in the in the QA, and I was like, you know, what are you going to do for coaches? Like we are the lifeblood. I'm I'm I'm I'm not I'm sorry, I'm not sorry. We are the lifeblood of the sport. We are the people who are, you know, honestly, I said, whether USA swimming is nice to us or not, and they haven't been good to us, like been like a you know, abusive parent for decades, we're still gonna try with everything we've got to make this sport good and to attract people to this sport and to bring them in. Um, so I think a lot about coach education. And what I'm really curious to hear from you, because I think from the very beginning, you know, you probably noticed that the way that you thought about coaching, the way that you approached different situations that coaches find themselves in was quite different. When you look at, you know, the other end of it, teaching coaches, where do you see the biggest gaps for coaches starting off? And where do you try to bring them along in perhaps a way that you know you had to kind of figure it out on the fly on your own? But you're like, would be great if you know there had been a Kyle Johnson for me at that moment, I would have made progress a little bit faster.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

I I appreciate that. And I I think, you know, as I mentioned earlier, it in kind of my my origins into this, you know, I think most coaches, all of us come in as just swimming athletes or an athlete, and uh, you know, like I said, somebody just hands you a stopwatch and say, hey, you'd be good at this. And we kind of go, well, all right, let's go. Let's do this. And we kind of get into it, and we, you know, and we really don't have any framework of kind of how we're how to do this or what to do. And I think the way I describe it is there's we don't really have our identity as a coach. We kind of have a borrowed, you know, we borrow it from our former coaches, our college coaches, who our bosses or whatever. So we we kind of just step in and we just uh assume that same identity. And we kind of just go through this. A lot of people, I think, sadly, kind of never find their own kind of authenticity as a coach. Continue to recycle someone else's model. And so I think for the gap, I think that's the biggest gap is for at least where where I'm seeing my my impact on the coaches I'm working with is first of all, just starting there, just kind of getting honest about what it is you want, you know, and what are your values? And how can you put that in a a framework? So, like, you know, when when you get that call at 9 p.m. on a Tuesday night and the the parent is upset, you know, what are your non-negotiables, you know, in in the way what you value and and the ideals of your program? Um and where's the playbook? What are you gonna say? So I think in a in a nutshell, I I help coaches kind of, you know, design their own playbook, kind of their blueprint for who they are, how they're gonna not just the cool stuff that we like to talk about, like the sets and the training and the you know, the geeky stuff. And you know, it's people always want, you know, when they want to shift me that direction. Well, tell me how you teach butterfly or something. No, it's a we'll get there. But I want you you want to have your value system in place. You wanna it's you know, it's not just you know, putting a a slogan out there, it's what you believe in, but you know, it's not a poster on the wall. This is, you know, Coach Kyle or Coach Chris, this is this is what I what I hang my shingle on, and I believe in this, and I'm gonna always um evaluate where I'm at in these situations based upon what I value and what my identity is, and then create the the frameworks inside there. And so the systems, you know, of curriculum, let's say, or human resources, finding your assistant coaches, or how you onboard those coaches, how you um, you know, give them autonomy, but also within your own long-term development strategy for your program. You can always get the the tactics, you know, that they can use from their own, you know, creativity, but generally over the the strategic plan, this the strategy of the long haul, that's huge. And so, yeah, that's what I'm finding myself doing. And I'm trying to, you know, I I'm when I talk to coaches, it's really, as you know, it's uh in what you do in positive psychology, you do have to do a lot of listening. I think you do, but um you know, you just say, like I say, I'm I'm not gonna I'm not here to tell you what to do. I can give you um anecdotes and experience and you know, maybe you don't want to go there, but if you decide to do that, here's you know, consequences that may come up. But I'm coaching the coaches to figure it out to how to coach themselves so that they can have not just uh going to a weekend clinic uh and getting a you know a webinar and get a a nice little polo shirt and uh a little glossy book and go home and go, what do I do with this? Right. It's like uh you know, it was a nice experience. I got to stand by the Olympic rings and or whatever it is and and get some selfies and eat in the cool mess hall there and and uh get you know herded around to see seminars and uh you know things like that, and just kind of you still kind of walk away going, Well, how do I input this? How do I apply this? And saying that, I you know, and I I don't want to be knocking that system of coaches education, but I to me it's just it's just um it's not a relationship building kind of thing and a sustainable long-term kind of infrastructure of of you know relationships and you know constant um feedback and and bouncing off ideas. And that's kind of what I I find myself really intrigued with, and it's fostered from the podcasts that we do, and you know, being kind of living vicariously through this young coach in in the season planning that I've helped him put together, and you know, and and I have to say his name's Nate, Nate McKay, and and he's killing it. So I'm feeling pretty proud. His kids are ripping it up, and but he's but he's doing it, I would say, the right way. He's being very methodical about it, being able to put his systems in place, seeking the right people to talk to, uh getting not not just me, but resources I've provided for him to check out. So it's really it's really validating to see success um in that way. And so then we we kind of chat about it. He's the beta test basically on the on the podcast. And we just I just respond to what's going on in his world usually. And other, you know, we'll geek out about NCAAs and you know, world records and Katie Ledecki and Gretchen Walsh and all the stuff all all those other geek podcasters like to talk about. But we get into the grassroots coaching and and it's kind of and I think I'll attribute that to to Alex again. And you might remember from his talk in Sweden um at the World Coaches Conference, and he kind of put it into this that we have the the farmers and the executive chefs. And I just once again, dude, you nailed it, you know. And so I think we're our our niche in the podcast is is the farmers. We're you know, we're trying to we don't have the luxury to you know hand pick the the good stuff and no uh we just we have to do with what we get and we have to teach talent. We can't just wait for talent to show up. We have to influence it, we have to teach it and and nurture it and fertilize it, take it to market.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah. It's kind of where I'm at. I think I think too is uh I'm about to ask you a question about governing bodies. One of the things that I've I've said on here a number of times, and I I stick to it, is you know, when I go to the origins of USA swimming, the the creation of USA swimming, and uh no, I don't think any other podcast discusses the Ted Stevens Amateur Sports Act as much as this one. We're we're leading the way in the Ted Stevens Amateur Sports Act, but I think it's very important because you you begin this, what you just were talking about, talking about values. And it's important to understand that whatever USA swimming is now, at its founding, the value that they put as their you know overriding mission was we're gonna win medals at the Olympics. That and and to me that was sort of the original sin that created a lot of the things that I didn't like to see in that organization. But where we, you know, where we got to, where the where that devolved, and and speaking to what you're talking here about talent, you know, let's say talent development, again, maybe another term that I don't love, but you know, kind of encompasses a little bit for people what we're it's broad. Yeah, it's broad, right? You know, USA swimming started to, I think, as an organization, and I I I think this is changing, I hope this is changing, started to see themselves, right, as creating all of these world-class swimmers. When in reality, to bring it back to your farmer analogy, they were harvesting them. They were harvesting them, and you know, like uh almost like an executive chef, you know, they were they were sifting through the ingredients and going, oh, this one, wow, this one, this is a perfect looking potato. I'm gonna do something with this. Uh, this one has a little flaw in it, throw it out. You know, moving on. You know, they had the luxury of doing that, but like not necessarily the respect for the fact that there was this ecosystem that was constantly bringing talent up to them.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

And um, so I I pose this question back to you because I I'm you're you're nodding as I'm saying this. So I'm I'm gathering you largely agree with me. Okay. So what can these organizations do? I mean, how would a a USA swimming or an ASCA, you know, the organizations that you and I have been so critical of over the years, how could they be rebuilt or reorganized in a way that actually sort of respects the grassroots, the farmer level of the sport?

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Well, to me, it's it's um and it's about mathematics, basically. It's it's it's exponential. If you invest in the farmers, you invest in in the coaches and not just uh pull a shirt and uh and uh uh a manual, continue to invest in them because we, the farming coaches, we will influence hundreds of athletes or thousands of athletes in our career, support ourselves uh through our governing body to have uh a better infrastructure, to to you know, just not just to uh poach talent and and uh you know to stick them into the the USA swimming metal system, but really, you know, because you talk about it, we all talk about the the declining numbers in the sport. I think it kind of traces back to the development of the young coaches, the early coaches, and and kind of those are the people that are making the first impressions on these athletes. And and they're usually, and I'd say probably all of them are are, you know, I mean, you get a like say a three-hour seminar, and that's you know, off you go. And it's it's just kind of a liability check, basically. And it's just and they're the ones that you know, they have a lot of enthusiasm and maybe charisma and and uh but you know it so we gotta invest more than just you know a certification kind of thing, uh an open book test, um, things like that. We really have to get out there and create this mentorship type of opportunities, not just from Eddie Reese or Greg Troy or somebody like that. I mean, let's start, you know, let's let's talk to like the Alex and Keatons or me, whatever, you. You know, so we we've been we've been doing this, and but we've we've we've had to had to just kind of rely on adrenaline and passion and and our connections and and to get it, and then a lot of us fall by the wayside. And uh then the next group comes in and they go, I'm gonna get the polish shirt and the manual, and then off they go. And so I don't don't know if I answered the question, but I think I get money for metals, but I don't I can't support that. I we gotta put money in the in the the grassroots places and really do a better job of mentoring and providing services in that way. And yeah, I yeah, honestly, I I mean maybe they are, but I I've kind of pulled myself away from it, kind of like I just don't want to get invested in what they're doing right now. So if I'm wrong, please tell me, but I don't think I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

I don't think you're wrong. I think I think I I will admit, and you know, this one maybe will shock some of my audience and maybe we'll be like, oh Chris, you sold out. I feel optimistic right now. I do. I I I I think there's a chance for the first time in my adult lifetime. I actually think there's a chance and there's leadership there that at least is going to try to do. I have, you know, and I've not seen that, honestly. Over my adult lifetime, my professional lifetime coaching, I've not seen them even try, right? And I I really think that they're going to try now. And even I struggle, I I put the question to you because I was like, I bet I hope Kyle has a good answer to this, because I struggle to come up with an answer too. Like, I it's what I want is the same general concept that you're saying. And I, you know, I'm not being too hard on myself that I don't have it fully fleshed out, right? But I agree that we've got to put so much more effort into training coaches, not in the way that, you know, we've got USO Swimming has these online courses and we have a bunch of safe sports stuff put in, which I think has been a positive. I certainly I have, you know, I've expounded upon all the limitations of that and the but they don't have to do so much with the education because it actually the educational pieces of it have done a lot to let people know sort of like what is acceptable behavior and what is not acceptable behavior from a coach. I think that's been a net positive. But, you know, we can't just kind of like that education is more about learning what not to do. And we can't just have what you can't do, a long list of restrictions. You can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this, and these hardcore punishments if you step out of line. We have to be able to give coaches information like here's here's uh here's a best practices way to go about business. And I think to me, that does not exist. I think, for instance, the existent ask a level one course. I mean, come on, it's a joke. The last time I took it, John Hutcheson was still part of the course. Like, give me a give me a break. Um no, it's I think it's been fixed. You know, I th I think so. I honestly redactions but like that was like in 2022 or something. Like to me, that says there's there's not been enough people actively engaged, and that process has been a little bit corrupted. And I think if you don't recognize that, then we continue to just put like ineffective tools out there and wonder. Um, and I think you know, that that process, and we we don't have time to get into I think the economics of it, but it has been compounded by factors that go well beyond swimming. You know, the the pipeline of coaches coming in, they're just economically challenged in a way that is even, you know, as young as I think I am, and I'm I'm not as young as I think I am. Younger than me. Yes, but it was not the same. It's worse. It's much worse than when I got into the profession, you know. And so I worry that, you know, we're that our for lack of a better term, like our talent pipeline for coaching is really, really under threat from some of that as well. So they they not only are we not, you know, for factors outside of our control, really able to keep coaches in, but once but the factors within our control are not we're not taking advantage of that as well.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Yeah. Um well you see, I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna take your optimism. I know that you the two of us can get very skeptic and cynical about this. I think, you know, maybe, you know, there's people that let's say get involved with Ask or USA Swimming, maybe trying into the administrative level or board of directors, and I think people come in with good intentions, and I feel like a lot of them kind of get discouraged in that in those positions as well. It's like I have these ideas, but and I want to make change, but they don't maybe they don't get supported in that role as well, and then they just give up or get disgruntled and and bond from that. So I'm just speculating, and so um I'm curious, and and and we can continue to have conversations offline, and or other coaches saying, well, it's different. I want to know how different it is, is it different and how so? And what is the what's the long-term plan and what's going on right now?

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Right. Right. I mean, I think what gives me hope um, you know, on my end of it is I, you know, people who've been listening to this podcast for a while know that I've had Greg Meehan on here a couple times. And before that, you know, I had recorded a podcast where I basically savaged Greg Meehan for 30 minutes. And, you know, I've done that once or twice, Kyle. I've been really hard on one of my colleagues a few, a few times. He's he handled it the best. I'm just gonna go out, I'm gonna, I've been telling a lot of people this. He handled it so much better than anybody else that I've had that kind of interaction with. And to me, that means, you know, like, okay, here's somebody with at least the humility to like they don't and and the self-esteem to like withstand the pressures, right, that I think undo a lot of these efforts. The CEO of USA Swimming, uh the way I introduced himself, or sorry, I introduced myself to him, I said, Hey, I'm Chris DeSantis. I've been an absolute nightmare for your predecessors. And he laughed and like didn't run away, you know, didn't there's no panic in his eyes. And I thought, okay, here's a guy who with at least enough self-esteem that he can take he can take a little bit of criticism and he won't reflexively come back into that defensive crouch that I think a lot of people get when they get up there, right? And then that also they start to identify with the organization and the way things have always been done because they're getting critiqued from the outside. Right. So I think that's the that's the contours of it. Let's switch to you personally, Kyle.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Let's let's put you on the hot seat.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Oh, geez.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Um, what do you do what do you do to get better? Like what's your what's your approach to improving yourself as a teacher, improving yourself as a coach, as a mentor, all of that?

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Well, it's uh that's a great qu question, Chris. And I think a lot of um it's fun because I've always been uh just a sports fan. All right. I'm always uh whether it doesn't matter if it's swimming, and somehow, you know, in conversations about watching it, I always be able to segue it back to how I can help a swimmer out with watching um an NBA player jump out of the gym, for example. But that being said, I I do I I I try to read um you know different subjects. It always kind of help kind of figures out, well, how's this gonna help me in coaching, like psychology and you know, uh other other sports, neuroscience and all these kind of things about uh pedagogy and and teaching and and all so I I wish I was more had more time to really invest in fiction because I I think it'd be good for me to kind of get it out. But I I just so I'm so into it. So I try to I try to just broaden myself outside of just the the swimming bubble. And so and that led me to some good people uh to you know to talk to or or follow. So I do that. Um, you know, I kind of um I I write a little bit. Um just it helps me, you know, we have we can listen to things, we can watch things, but it's good to kind of just sit down and clarify where you're at, you know, to kind of give yourself uh try to write your beliefs a little bit or your experiences. And kind of with that, it kind of gives you a way to kind of audit kind of what you've been doing. And am I still have I drifted away from my values, for example, or you know, how can I how can I get a little my own self-check on that? Um I'm not a prolific writer, but occasionally I fortunately I my mother was a high school English teacher, so she she was old school and she taught me some basics about you know sentence structure and things. And I can probably run it through chat GPT or Claude and they can fix it for me. But you know, I I think but it that's just more of a an outlet. Um and also I just uh yeah, I just I still try to stay in shape, try to work out. I uh as I was mentioning, uh we spent a lot of time, you know, half the year in San Diego now, and you just can't help it. But you know, the weather's great, you know, and it's not raining like it is most of the time up here, and and so you just you it's good. So I I jump in the ocean. I I I bought this crusty little spike at the this is the beach cruiser, and I I pedal down the boardwalk and now and there's this La Jolla High School pool I go to and I'm down the kind of it's got you know, it has some breaks once in a while and the gears work occasionally, but yeah, it's just fun. You know, so I I think uh I'm always just trying to, you know, improve me myself in a in a healthy way. So to create a balance of, you know, and it's hard for coaches, and I've I feel I have a luxury now, I have more time to do that, but I encourage coaches to continue. Commit to that and and set some boundaries kind of a non-negotiable bot about your self care and your health.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Yeah. I'm with you there as well. I mean, I I got a lot of compliments at the conference that I was just at. People said I, you know, who hadn't seen me for a long time, they're like, Oh, you look like you're in great shape. And yeah. It's very intentional. I mean, I I think at some point I realized that it was okay in some ways to look at myself as an athlete in this in the way that, you know, I I do set an expectation on myself to perform, and my physical condition affects that. I mean, it it affects my ability to podcast where where I'm at. If I was, you know, if I was not exercising, if I was not in good form, could I come off, you know, traveling for a couple of days, wake up the next day, be able to hit the ground running, working, have energy to do things like that. I don't know. I mean, I think it probably would compromise some end of it. And I say that I feel so conflicted talking about it because I think when I start saying it out loud, I think a lot of coaches feel ashamed. I know that they're not feeling good about how physically they're taking care of themselves. I know that that's a barrier to them taking better care of themselves. So I don't want anyone to feel ashamed, but I'm just trying to make a positive case for, you know, you may think that where where you're sitting right now, like you don't have time for it. And I would argue that it will be additive to your capacity to invest time. 100%. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. It's like, it's like when I was studying when I was still a student, right? When I was still in high school, and people would be like, I'm gonna stay up all night studying for the test. I'm like, that defies any logic, right? Like you should sleep. Yeah. You should study up to a point and then you should sleep. There's there's no way you're operating at top mental capacity when you didn't sleep the night before. Um, and it's kind of a a short-term thinking. One more recommendation, you talked about reading and talked about fiction. Oh this is what I'm gonna sell to all my audience. I read I finally read Dostoevsky, which was like very intimidating, right, within the last year. Yeah, yeah. Um, I read two The Brothers Karamatsov and The House of the Dead. And I will just say, if you want to get inspired, if if you want a coaching argument for reading those books, because I'm sure it's not very obvious, Dostoevsky's understanding of psychology, predating any modern really even notion of the word psychology is so incredible. Just read those books for the descriptions of people's thought processes and motivations and like internal dialogues. You you will get endless inspiration from them in that remote.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

What a great uh addition to the podcast to be having kind of segue to some literary uh masterpieces to improve your your coaching. You know, I like that. That's all right.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Top coaching tip of 2026. There it is. Brothers Karamatza.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Yeah, I love it. I'll tell you that under advisement.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Okay, let me ask you this. You know, you said you, and we've kind of been talking about this the whole time, and in some ways we've been talking about it in our conversation with Milt, but for people like you, who I just know are just like knowledge seeking and kind of love of learning types, one of the biggest questions, and this is actually the central question that I wanted to bring Alex Nakeaton on to answer on this podcast, because I think he would I think he would crush it, right? But I'll I'll settle for you, Kyle. Um, in in four minutes, Alex right now. Okay. That's a four. I'll settle for adjunct Alex Nakeaton. And that is we of course we live in an era where there's access to more information. You can get more information from more sources than ever before. How do you filter? How do you figure out, like, hey, this is, you know, this to me is probably gonna be a good source of information, and where do you go? Like, I'm this is just noise. I'm not gonna pay attention to this.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Yeah, you know, that's a hard, a hard, you know, it's it's a great question, it's but it's a hard uh environment to navigate, uh as you say. So like for me now, and I I know you as well, we have to put ourselves out there, right? So we have to engage, you know, we have to go to Instagram and we have to put our face out there and say something and get you know people to comment. Yeah. So along the way in the process of doing that, we we sift through these these pieces of of uh what I call the Instagram coaches, the the gurus, uh the guys that are are uh providing uh instant hacks to things. You know, I don't you know I'm one of the things I just if I I have to see one more thing about somebody doing this, you know, on a you know on a pool deck.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

For people listening, Kyle is demonstrating a person standing up early doing early vertical forearm. Another another swear word here on the swim brief.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

We Good, good, yeah. That's profanity. That's a profanity. And I know so what I'm saying is that is so we have to be interrogate what we we see, you know, much more as we're trying to be authentic and putting ourselves out there and going, well, I'm in this space now, I'm in this social space. And I've had to I've had to really kind of suck it up. I kind of cringe about that a little bit and go, because I'm always I'm kind of finding myself being critical of everything else. So I have to go, well, okay, does this person not necessarily if he's doing this or whatever, but do they have skin in the game? I mean, have they really kind of been through the ring? Have they have they put something, you know, and believed in something and maybe failed? And have they rebounded, have they refined it, have they come back with it? Have they tested it? Have has it stood the test of time a little bit? Not to say that's the end all, but you know, are they open to nuance? And and that's a hard arena for me right now because I just I get critical and I just don't want to see somebody give me the 10 bullet points of fast freestyle over and over again or 101 ways to swim 10100s freestyle or whatever. I I don't want to see that again. And so I have to push it out and go, okay, well, why would somebody look at me or come and and get interested or engage with my content? So I you know, so I, you know, so then I look at something that does give me the, you know, the the kind of uncomfortable, and I go, okay, am I willing to dig a little deeper and find out if there really is some something to this? And is it testing my own bias? Can I get something from that? And so, and that's hard. It's it really is hard. And um not sure if I answered your question, but I I I think I you gotta, it's hard to filter things out, and everything's in just the sound bites and short form, and you know, once again, it's a hack, most of this stuff. And I I gotta I gotta I gotta stay in the space if I'm gonna, you know, make a little money in this uh new venture of mine.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Yeah, and I think also one of the hard things is um, and I feel this for you particularly, is you say that that's the environment. If you and I don't get in the game, those are the only people like a lot of new people are gonna hear from.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

So we kind of like we can't just go, well, that's stupid. I don't want to engage. We have to try to get in the game somehow, right? And I think probably I love what you said about skin in the game. I always try to look for people where I go, is this person giving me advice and yet like kind of living consequence free of whether that advice works or not? Or is this person, can I draw a direct line to what they're saying and them really kind of like living and embodying it? And and can I kind of check their work, right? Am I able to check it on the other end? When I spoke to this audience at the college uh swim coaches, I said, like I introduced myself and I said, you know, there's several people in the audience who've worked with me. So honestly, don't work with me based on what I'm gonna say in the presentation. If if you like it a little bit, go talk to one of those people. And if they're not incredibly enthusiastic about what they did with me, don't don't seek me out.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

That's those people are my proof points because those are instances where I didn't just talk about it. I actually had to go out and do something and make an impact on somebody. And that's that's my skin in the game, because that's what I'm trying to that's what I'm trying to sell to other coaches, that it's gonna be a positive experience for you, that you're going to really get something from working. Uh and the the only way you can't, you know, you won't be you won't glean that from my social media.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

You're right.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

You're only gonna glean that by talking to real people that have um and you gotta rock it with me.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

You got yeah, yeah, you really do. And it's uh so I I think yeah, that's uh trying to filter and trying to stay relevant and trying to engage and it's uh it's it's a challenge. I'm gonna just come right out and say that for me. But yeah, as you said, we've got that's how we have to get our beliefs and our ideals and our conviction that we can I mean it's it's uh kind of the purpose over self, I guess is the way I would describe it. Yeah, we have a purpose, we can help. So we have to get out there and do it.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Yeah, yeah. Um I know people who are listening to this may be like, Chris, hasn't this whole podcast been you and Kyle on on soapboxes? But I did leave one last line item in the outline for you to just go off on any topic you want. This is the fun section of the podcast, Kyle. This is where we we just get a little loose at the end. So um I know I I sent this to you only yesterday, so you've had 24 hours to think about it, but like you got anything else on your mind where you just want to like just want to get out there and talk about something swimming related?

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Yeah, I I think I well I I kind of started into it uh in my rant about uh the social media space and and um I I it it when I'm looking at um the what's being presented out there and I I I I it's kind of it's disheartening in a lot of ways, though some of the things and I um I I see, you know, for example, you know, people strapping pizza pans on 12 and under hands and and pulling a bucket behind them, you know. You know what I mean? So, you know, stuff like that. And it's like, hey, this is you know, power and we're gonna get, you know, and all those kind of things. And I just go on, or even if they're doing it to a mature individual. It just drives me crazy because I say, what, what are what you know, and you know when when the presentations from the the the aquatic conference there, World Conference, I think there's there's, you know, we can only do so much of this this power stuff, and you know, and to where any more of it are you gonna improve like that much more? And then you look at how it just degrades the from in s between the feet and the hands, everything in the middle just collapses. You know, it's this is you know, all this. So that gets back to my geeky side of things about, you know, of of what what are we doing to these people, these athletes, to get maybe to try to get through that, as Jim Paulchek said, you know, the head wall of you know, resistance at say 1.7 meters per second, you know, somewhere in that range, it's not about how we can produce more force, it's how we can shed more water. And so it's kind of that those are the opportunities. So it's kind of well, you know, I I twisted a rant into an opportunity. And so I think if if we keep going out there and we're finding these these little sexy recipes of of uh tools and buckets and power towers and pizza pan handle, you know, things and all this stuff, and we're just destroying athletes and possibilities and potentials. It can work for, you know, a a jacked up dude that's might be on some supplements. You know, we won't go that direction, but you know what I mean? And so, but it's I see it transferring into into age group swimming. And um because it's you know, I mean, coaches are busy. They're always looking for low-hanging fruit too, you know. This would be cool to throw this into the program today, you know, and let's do this. And and it's kind of fun, it's novel and it's different, but then is it sustainable? How does it once again fit into your long-term model of coaching? So, long story short, that's kind of my rant. I think if you know, just have a bigger picture of what you're trying to do and how it's impacting the the organism. And so I think the quest for velocity, we're I think we keep chasing it in the wrong ways. Um I I think we need to continue to look at more of how we relate to the environment and how we shape ourselves to get through the water.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Yeah, yeah. I think uh do you know, I think the the same thing, there's some universals, and uh, it's so interesting too, you know. I think we had this conversation, shedding away from the technique terminology. And I think that's something that's been ascribed to Milt as well. I approach things so often from the lens of psychology, but I don't view it as really uh in any way distinct from physiology. I think the same universals apply. So, you know, I think what you're talking about definitely, you know, I see so much in the psychology world where it's like we're in we're in problem solving mode and we're almost trying to create more velocity instead of, as you say, like less hindrance to to what you're doing. I mean, I it's an applause line, Kyle. Now, when I go out and talk that I swam a personal best in the last year, I'm at 42 years old. People applaud for that because it is impressive. So it's a legitimately impressive accomplishment. But what I tell people is the number one factor is I've just cut back like 80% on stupid. I just shed 80% of stupid shit that I used to do, especially from a psychological perspective. And so there's no way that I'm in better shape. I'm not in I'm not in better uh physical form than I was at age 22. But just, you know, stripping away all that stupidity makes it so much easier for me to perform.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

I agree. Yeah. And I've always told the coaches that talk about, I think my sweet spot as far as just training athletes is about 75 minutes. So I think that's about all they can really handle if they if the you create the environment and the conditions that the engagement is really high. You know, everything else just kind of diminishing returns. I want them to have an experience that's pretty dense and optimal and then go. You know, it's I want them leaving, humming a little bit, kind of like I'm tired, but they're already in the nervous system and their body's already trying to recalibrate things for the next session. And so that's yeah, it's just a personal opinion and observation. So I think, like you said, everything else is fluff. And it's just why go, go study, go eat, go to bed. But uh let's not waste time because we think we have to.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

Okay. I want to when I when I come on your podcast, okay, okay, I want to talk about that because again, we're in the fun part and we're just I was out, I I had the chance, it's really cool this year. I've been um at the College of New Jersey, local to me, they have me working with all sports. So I've been able to do an educational program incorporating positive psychology into your coaching across all sports. But I also have this opportunity to, you know, have a casual conversation. The last time I was there, uh coach at TCMJ, he's been there at all the sessions, and I was like, Oh, I'd really love to come to practice today. Do you have do you have a practice today? And he said, Oh yeah, you know, and he said it's at this time, you know, this time to this time. And how long do you just just take a guess, Kyle? How long do you think practice was?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

75 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

No, no, okay. Come on. It was two hours. Everybody does a two-hour practice. They're not like you. This is where you don't realize. Everybody does a two-hour practice. Everybody across the world has universally decided that two hours is the right time. And I said it in that meeting. I go, when did we all decide that two hours was the right amount of time to practice? Like, is that is that based on anything? And everybody in the room just sort of like looked around like, I don't know, isn't that just how long you're supposed to have practice? What we've always done.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

Or how we've always done the famous morning workout. You know, I I mean, I was up, I I got called off the bench today to go coach a morning practice. I got up at four o'clock this morning and watched these kids walk in on the pool deck at five in the morning and they're going, you know, and I had I created a session, uh, and this is geeking, but I we were got right engaged right away. I didn't want to go through that swim kick, pull kick to saying blah, blah, blah, blah, for 30 minutes because they're just shutting down the whole time. I just went, we we're going. And then about I said about 75 minutes, like, see you later.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

See you later.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

Opinion, of course. It's a we had to, I'm so glad for people who listen to the end of the podcast, you got the most controversial opinion of the whole thing. Because I know, I mean, you know, I've pricked up way more mainstream listeners, Kyle. You know, and you're like, you're from the previous era of swim brief, swim brief podcasts. So now for all of them who've listened to the end, they're like, they're you know, throwing their phone across the room, like, what do you mean 75 minutes is the right about it? Come on, man, what a loser. Like 75 minutes for practice.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

You know, I'm in a place too in my career and my life. I it's so you know, okay. Whatever. You I don't give a shit. Mess it up on your own, right? You know, it's just like, but if you want my my uh advice and you know, what I've experienced and what I believe in and what I can give you, yeah, yeah, I'll talk to you about that. Let's have that conversation. I've been a coach that was throughout 100,000 yard weeks, or you know, things like that. I yeah, you tried it. I had a success, but it was not sustainable. But it works.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

Amazing. Yeah. Kyle, hey, do you want to give people the title of the of the podcast one more time so people know where to find it, how to find it?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

It's uh we're on Spotify. It's called I Don't Get It. I've got yeah, so they uh we have a Substack piece in there too. So my my co-host Nate McKay, and we occasionally check up an article on there, but it's um yeah, podcast I d i at gmail.com. And you know, my my uh Instagram is at coach dot so you can reach out.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:42

How's that?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

That's an awesome plug. Awesome plug. And soon, you know, the I don't get it podcast soon to feature Chris DeSantis. If people want to contact me, Crdesantis at gmail.com. You can go to Instagram, Christy underscore coach. Uh you can go to my website, Christycoach.com, fill out a contact form. You can contact me there. Kyle, thank you so much. Thanks for being willing to do this. Yeah, like for uh listening to me. Well, I mean, yeah, I love listening. And uh I want to thank all the listeners as well for listening to us. I appreciate you guys. I appreciate everybody that reaches out, makes a donation, or just writes writes that you listen, people that I run into conferences that come up and talk to me. It really makes a difference. It really does sort of buoy me and support me um in what I'm doing. So thank you to all of you, and I'll be back with you guys again in a week.