The Swim Brief
A swimming podcast featuring natural conversations about the sport. Chris DeSantis brings the poolside conversation to the podcast form.
The Swim Brief
Debrief: Rachel Stratton-Mills
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Northwestern Swimming and Diving Head Coach and College Swim Coaches Association President Rachel Stratton-Mills to share her approach to coaching.
Debrief: Rachel Stratton-Mills Chris DeSantisHello and welcome to the swim brief. I am Chris DeSantis, and this week on the debrief, where we bring on coaches, thinkers, philosophers, scientists, people who are here to make the audience of this podcast a little bit wiser about the way that they approach their day-to-day by popular demand. We have the head coach of swimming and diving at Northwestern University, Rachel Stratton Mills. Rachel, how are you?
SPEAKER_01I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
SPEAKER_00We got to give the people what they want, Rachel. I've had people in my ears. You don't even know. See, like you're coming into this late, you know, and you don't even know. It's embarrassing, honestly. I shouldn't be admitting this on the front end of the podcast, but the amount of people who over the years have been like, you gotta, you should have Rachel on the podcast. You should have Rachel on the podcast. Like, and I've been like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll get to it. I'll get to it. And then finally, I think, you know, the the the the straw that broke the elephant's back. Is that is that how it goes?
SPEAKER_01Camel's back.
SPEAKER_00Camel's back? I lost. I got lost doing my analogy. Okay. That broke the camel's back was Jordan Cordry on her podcast that's that's released just a day before we've recorded this, telling a story about you. I don't know if you probably you were you said you were listening to it. Have you gotten it?
SPEAKER_01I'm not through it yet. I haven't heard that yet.
SPEAKER_00No, you haven't gotten to the story about you, the flattering story about you. And then I was like, okay, fine. I I I give in. I gotta do it. I gotta do it. And so I'm really excited to do this. That's my long way of saying this has been a long way coming. Let's get right into just introducing you a little bit to the audience. I don't want to assume anybody, I mean, I think a lot of people who are listening to this are aware of you in some way, uh, shape, or form. But I always think too, it's interesting to dive into the biography and and actually listen to the way people tell the story of how they how they got to a place or you know, like there's the sort of path there. And you and I, we like we knew each other back in the day. Yeah. It's been a long time. It's been a long time. We really haven't like had like a solid conversation in like almost 20 years. But when we were young coaches, young whippersnappers coming up, you were at Dartmouth, I was at Penn.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, we were we were trying to figure out what we were gonna make out of all this, and and here we are. Let's start there. You're the coach of Northwestern now, right? But talk a little bit about your path to getting there and some of the important stops along.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks. I can't believe it's been that long since we were at those stops. It's been a been a while. Yeah, I think I have a you know, it's been a pretty wide range of stops along the way, which I'm really grateful for. Yeah. Um I swam at UCLA and uh and then I started coaching club right away. Um, I was getting a teaching credential. I thought maybe I want to teach, but I was just so drawn towards coaching. So I was at Team Santa Monica. I was a head coach of Team Santa Monica for a few years. And but I just really felt like college coaching is the way I wanted to go. And so that's when I went out to Dartmouth. They had just that year decided they would be able to hire two full-time assistants. I can't remember years. I'm so bad at that. So I don't remember what year that was. What year was that?
SPEAKER_00Was this after the first time they tried to cut the program? Or where are we in terms of antagonizing their own swimming and diving team?
SPEAKER_01This was gosh, it's a great question. Maybe oh six or oh seven-ish.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That makes that that lines up because that's what I'm at Okay.
SPEAKER_01So I was out there for a few years and I just learned so much. It was a great experience. And but I wanted to keep being at kind of with higher level swimmers at a higher level institution. And and so moved on to I was at University of Maryland just for one season. I was able to be at the Naval Academy, which was phenomenal. But then from there, we moved to New York City where I was the head coach of Agua, Asphalt Green. And that was a really big part of my journey, I think, that I learned so much. I kind of formulated maybe more of like who I was as a coach. Um, it was a club team, but we had a lot of professionals and multiple people on the national teams. It was a really special environment where we got to do some stuff at a high level, but at the same time, you're still working with these young kids and forging relationships that I think last a lifetime when you're coaching club. And that was pretty special. So that was a really big part of it. You want me to just keep going to the parts?
SPEAKER_00Agua's a it's interesting. Uh you pause a moment on Agua. Like Agua is just for people who maybe are listening to this and they have no sense of they maybe have heard the name of the team. Obviously, there'd been some really notable swimmers over the years, one of them coming during your time, in particular, Leah Neal, right? And I think probably people have this perception of like, oh, yeah, okay, club team in New York City. Like it's a pretty unique team. It's it's it's unlike, I don't know, pretty much unlike anything else. Part of it being like there's a there's a professional structure there. It's part of a much bigger organization, right? And there's like administration and there's an athletic director.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it feels like a collegiate setup, but for a club team. So yeah, you have all you have your fundraising department, you have your yes, the in essence, an athletic director. And so you have all of that and a lot of the support and resources that come with that, but it is a club team. So it is, it was unique and it was a really special time in my coaching career. I have a lot of fond memories.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think too, like people, in my perception, okay, I I lived in the area, so obviously I I figured out that this wasn't true, but I think, you know, being around there, you think like facilities are probably not great. Facilities were kind of amazing. I mean, you had a 50-meter pool, right?
SPEAKER_01The only 50-meter pool in Manhattan and a and a amazing weight room. And because it is, it's a along with a lot of other things beyond being a a hub for youth sports, because it also would have a basketball team and soccer, but it also was a fitness center for the neighborhood. So you had this beautiful gym and athletic facilities all around. So it was it was a pretty special place.
SPEAKER_00But you said at the outset of the story, you said, like, I'd pretty much decided college was for me. So what gives? Like what what was the move to Agua about then?
SPEAKER_01I felt like it was an opportunity that was really special and unique. It didn't feel like just going back to club coaching. I thought there was something we could do that was pretty special there, which we did, right? Like having an athlete on the Olympic team and and a lot on the national junior teams. And so I think it kind of felt a little bit different than just your like run-of-the-mill club team. And for a lot of the reasons is the structure, right? Like I felt like my whole career is dependent on a parent board. For me personally, that's what made me a little uncomfortable when I started coaching club and I wanted more security from my position. I think that was a big push. And so, so Agua Asphalt Green offered that, right? It it really felt like you had said it it was a professional organization and a professional structure. And so I felt really comfortable going to that, knowing we could do something special there, even though it was for the most part club-aged athletes. And again, a few pros, but for the most part, they were high school and younger.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then you uh let me make sure I got the timeline right. Then you make this decision, which I think you and I have daughters, like almost the same age. I only know this from following you on social media. My daughter's 12.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Yep. Yep, same age. Yep.
SPEAKER_00So, like, you know, like I I was really uh, you know, I was feeling where you were at that stage of life. You make this decision to like do a tour of the United States, right? Like um, you, your husband, Len, and your daughter. And I think how old is she at this point? Like four, five years old. One and a half. One and a half.
SPEAKER_01One and a half, yeah. And the dog. Oh my gosh. And the dog. Yeah. So we sold everything. Um and we bought a 35-foot RV and we sent out two emails, so or two notices, really. One, my husband runs a business called Go Swim. So he sent one out. You've maybe heard of it.
SPEAKER_00Maybe people who are listening to his podcast, you maybe.
SPEAKER_01He sent out a notification, and then I think we put it on Facebook. And we basically said, we want to come visit you. We want to learn what people are doing at every level of the sport. And, you know, from those two notifications, we got over 80 teams who asked us to visit. And so we we sat down, we looked at a calendar, and we're like, okay, first things first, where do we need to be when it's cold? So we're like, okay, we got to be down here in Florida in December. We knew we wanted to end at trials 16 in in Omaha. So that was kind of some, and we had some other things here and there that we we worked out. But so then we started just to look at all of these requests and see how we could fit people in. And we ended up visiting almost 60 teams along the course of the 15 months we lived on the road.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I didn't think it was that many. So I'm so glad I asked about this because I think I know that there was some coverage of it of the time, right? There was some contemporaneous and you guys were sharing stuff in real time. But I I almost think we've reached the stage where now, like, it's been 10 years. I know, like again, and I'm sorry to bust your mind with another, like another decade flown by, right? But it's it's been 10 years. And I guess what I'm wondering is you must have so many reflections from that time. Like the process of learning is actually probably still ongoing from that. What kind of stuff do you find yourself returning to and thinking about from that time period?
SPEAKER_01I think something that I learned the most is that you really can learn from anyone. And if you put yourself in an environment where you are open to hearing what people have to say and what they're doing, you can learn stuff from anyone and everyone. And I mean, we had programs that are tiny little programs no one would ever hear hear of. We visited a team that their practices were at a senior home. There was a pool in a senior home. And so you're like doing that, you know, and and seeing these seniors just doing their thing in the hallways while you're watching a swim practice. And but but there's things to learn from everybody. And and obviously we visited a lot of college teams and we visited a lot of like very successful club teams who have regularly been highly ranked, but the reality is you can learn from everyone. And I wasn't so great at that before the trip. And so I think for me, went into the trip going like I have I'm not here to tell people what I'm doing. I'm not here to talk about how good my team is doing. I'm just here and to just sit there and watch and take notes and just learn. I thought that was that's been really impactful for me, and I try to remind myself of that often. It just doesn't matter. You can learn from anyone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, I I've been on a bit of a similar journey myself. I I feel like I can relate to what you're saying. I remember one time I was um I was talking with somebody and I I said, like, you know, honestly, I kind of struggle um learning from other coaches because um I'm quite, for lack of a better term, I I'm not this way anymore, so I can I can be blunt. I was pretty arrogant. Like, and I kind of thought, like, yeah, but but I'm really smart and like I know how to do this and that, and like, what can they teach me? Right. And the person on the other end of the conversation was just like, you probably benefit a lot from just emptying your cup and showing up and seeing what people can fill in there. And they were absolutely right. You know, one of the things that I reflections I have in this podcast as well, like earlier in this past year, I think I had Greg Meehan on one week, and the next week I had a woman that nobody has ever heard of, probably, that but was a 40-year like age group and and learned a swim instructor. And a lot of people who listened to it were like, damn, I learned a lot from that woman. Like I learned just as much from her as from Greg. And I think, you know, there is something to it in, especially in the sport of swimming. Like, I I've realized that we admire people right for the high end of accomplishment. We're all competitive people. I think a lot of us are are seeking that. But there are some amazing, amazingly talented coaches that just have no name recognition. You you're you're never going to hear from them, but God would you benefit from being around them. So now I'm so jealous of your trip because you got to do a lot of that stuff.
SPEAKER_01It was it was really amazing. And I always liken it as like there's not many things we can do in life that are life-changing that are all positive. You think of life-changing experiences that often come from tragedy or hardships, but this was a completely life-changing experience and it was just positive from start to finish. And so it is something like that I I'm really grateful for, but it took like a leap, you know, it was Glenn's idea, and I'm like, we're doing what? And um, but it is something you look back on, and it just I'll tell you, I do remember on the road trip, we'd be somewhere, you know, I had a one and a half to three year old during that time. And so I try to get her to playgrounds and indoor play areas at the mall, and we just and people are chatty and you tell them what you're doing, and the number of people, Chris, who start crying when you tell them that you're living this trip and you're traveling full time, and the number of people like, I've always wanted to do that. When you see how many people out there like have this dream and and for whatever reason can't make it happen. So I feel very lucky that we were able to do that and and come out of it with great, a lot of great memories.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I experienced that as well. I mean, I think people look at what I do professionally now, being like a coach consultant and I I get to travel quite a bit, I get to be in different environments. And I think this year was the first year that I really turned the corner and went like realized that, you know, especially like random people that I talk to, I tell them what I'm doing, go, that's so fucking cool. Like, that's so cool, that's your job. And I go, Yeah, yeah, it is. You know, and it helps me deal with those moments inevitably. I'm sure there were stressful moments. Of course. I'm sure there were like moments where you're like, God, what did I get myself into? Like, why am I doing this? Right. But it helps you, I think, to snap out of those moments of like feeling sorry for yourself when you realize, right, and when you get that perspective check from other people. Another thing that I think is interesting about it, it can almost seem a bit selfless on its face, right? You know, like, oh God, I I went around and I just listened. But I think once you get into it, you realize how selfish it is. Like I think about that on this podcast all the time. Like, I get to interview all these people and I get to draw the things out of them. And I don't necessarily need to, you know, carry the conversation on these.
SPEAKER_01Like you just get to sit and listen.
SPEAKER_00I'm getting all the benefit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. Um, you let's so you finished that tour, then you went to coach at ASU. Is that the Yeah?
SPEAKER_01We had a few months where we went. My mother-in-law were very close with, she lives with us. So we went to take care of her for a few months and just figure out what our next step was. And Bob and I had known each other. We had kind of crossed paths when I was in New York, then we visited him on the trip, and it really worked out that right when I was looking for a position, he had one open up and I reached out to him and and the rest is history. So we made our way to Arizona and then and we were there. It was, you know, a great five or six years. I can't even remember at this point, but one of those.
SPEAKER_00That's probably the last time we saw each other at person. We I I was working with Washington State University standing pretty close to each other at a PAC. Pack eight meet or whatever, you know, the PAC conference. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Rest in peace meet. And so give us a flavor of what that was like. Because I think, you know, obviously, like my podcast with Bob Bowman is the most by far the most listened one. And I I we're here to talk about Rachel. Great Stratton Mills, right? Okay, but you know, if we could just like divert for a second, what is it like to be an assistant coach to Bob?
SPEAKER_01Well, I would say when I took the job, we had numerous people call either of us and said, You two are not gonna work well together.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, why? Hold on, why why are people saying that you think?
SPEAKER_01Because we were both very opinionated.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it worked wonderfully. It was I think what Bob does is he respects people who are incredibly passionate. A lot of bandwidth to work with people who are as focused and passionate as he is, and that is what I am. So while we would bicker quite a bit and still do, it was always because we just cared so much about what was going on, and we both wanted the absolute best. And um, and so I feel very lucky for my time there with Bob. Um, we're still very close and and I obviously learned a lot. I look back now and wish I had done a little better job of maybe asking questions. But, you know, I sit back and was like, why didn't I ever ask this? But that's okay. But it was, it is, I think for someone like me, where I am like nonstop thinking about how to make this team better, how to make Northwestern be one of the top teams in the country, like that's how I operate. It worked really well because at that time that's how he is operating. He comes in every day and says, right, excellence first. Like I always feel like blinders on, just looking straight ahead. How does our team, how do our athletes be the best in the world? And I think because we both had that mindset, it did work, work really well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I let me test out a theory that I just an observation, right? And you can tell me how right or wrong I am, but I think that whether you're a swimmer or you're a coach, I think you're gonna really struggle working with Bob if you've got a fragile ego. And you strike me as not a person with a fragile ego, right? Like, and in and I mean that in a healthy way, not that you're like not that you're out there sort of always grandstanding and and bragging, but like you strike me as a person who can take like harsh critique and go, like, I f I can figure out how to get better based on what I just heard, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I definitely don't get my feelings hurt easily. I tell people that, like, I feel like they don't get hurt easily. And to hurt my feelings, you better be you're probably trying really hard. And if you're trying that hard to hurt my feelings, I probably just don't care at that point. You know, so like why so yeah, I think that's very, very true. Like, I don't take things personally, especially when it comes to the job and the performance, right? Like I know that I want to be better and and being the best coach I can be is like my ultimate goal. So why wouldn't I take criticism, take feedback, be able to look myself in the face when something's not going well? But I do think you're right. That does it is helpful when working with Bob if you're not, if your feelings aren't hurt easily.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. At what point, okay, so you're you're working there at ASU, we're we're almost, we're almost made it to the present day. At what point do you start to get the feeling like, okay, it's time for me to spread my wings, you know, I want to be a head coach. I want to be a head coach of a collegiate program. And what sort of what I guess made that transition? Like I've because I feel like there's a mental transition that you go through from like, hey, I'm I'm learning, I'm here, I'm part of something, and then feeling like, gosh, you know, I want to give it a try where I'm the final decision maker on something.
SPEAKER_01I gotta say, I felt like the final decision maker. Ask Bob, he'll probably say on some things I was still the final decision maker. I think we worked really well together in terms of I didn't feel like I wasn't that person in a lot of ways. And and maybe for a moment there was a thought like, oh, would we ever split the programs and he can take the men and I can take the women? But I knew that wasn't gonna happen, um, you know, especially in the last few years. And then I kind of was starting to think of like, well, it's and it's not even just about being the final decision maker. I think in the last few years, I realized that the coach I really wanted to be, what's really true to me, I wasn't able to do that there. And then so it was how can I find a place where I'm really myself? I don't think my last few years at ASU, I was like the true version of myself. Um, because whenever we're in an environment, right, we're a reflection of the other people we're working with, we're a reflection of the program and um and it just wasn't who I wanted to be as a coach um for various reasons. And so I think that's what really made me realize like um that I needed to pivot and be someplace and be a head coach someplace where I could could really be that, really be the best version of myself.
SPEAKER_00Quick segue into the like like now we're gonna talk about where you're at now, what kind of stuff you're doing right now. I'm I'm desperate to know. Like what is the best version of you? What does that mean? Like what what did that end up being as you start and and now? Are you you just finished your third year at Northwestern?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yep. Once NCAA's is over, this will be the end of three seasons. So which is kind of wild.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I th I felt like it was less, but again, the time is we're getting older, Rachel, and the time just goes faster and faster.
SPEAKER_01So I think when I got here, I definitely spent a good amount of time really writing down like what part of myself as a coach like I felt was most effective and who I wanted to be. And I I know there was a few things. I wanted to create a program in which the athletes knew we genuinely cared about them as swimmers and as Humans. And I really believe you can do both. I believe you can have an environment where they feel very, very cared about, very supportive. And at the same time, you can push them to be great. And so that was something that was really important to me. And to do that, I had to show a maybe like a more vulnerable side of myself than I felt I could do in the years leading up to it. And so I knew that was something I really wanted. I wanted to be at a spot where when they come to practice, it's their favorite part of the day. And that doesn't mean we play games. You know, like we're not outside. It doesn't mean we're doing sharks and minnows. No, we're not playing sharks and minnows, but the re the way I feel like we achieve that is being so clear with the athletes on the purpose of every session and the plan for them and really making them feel like they understand all the ins and outs of what we're doing training. And so I wanted to make sure we're just sharing a lot of information with the athletes from top to bottom. And we do that and have done that since day one. And I think that's really helped in our progression. So I think those are like the main things, like me personally as a coach, like I did want to reflect here. And I thought this was a really special place for a lot of reasons. And I thought this is a place where I could really achieve those things.
SPEAKER_00I want to return to you you mentioned something in there about vulnerability, and I think that's a really I I want to define a little bit more what you mean by that. And I I'll tell you where I'm coming from. I think, you know, first of all, I think a lot of male coaches struggle with vulnerability for sure. Um it's something that I end up talking about quite a bit here. I think there's a different struggle, at least what I perceive different struggle for a lot of female coaches. I mean, I think the best way I think I can describe this is I feel like a lot of female coaches have this narrow band of acceptable behavior. If you're too vulnerable, like, you know, like, oh, you're just like squishy squishy and like peace and love, and you're you're liable to not be taken seriously, like as a competitor or, you know, this, that, or the other thing. And then like, but if you're if you're too sort of focused entirely on, let's just say, like, the raw competitiveness, you're more likely to be criticized as like harsh or over the top than necessarily a male coach. So first off, do you do you perceive that? I mean, is that how you sort of think about things as well? And then how do you how can you like be vulnerable in that environment?
SPEAKER_01Um that is I do perceive what you're saying, and it's been a really long journey, like working through all that. Uh I was talking to someone the other day about it, and it's important for me to talk about this because since I've been at Northwestern, there's never been one moment where I feel like it made any difference whether as a male or female, to any of my athletes, to any administration. So I'm incredibly grateful for that. So I I'm um I forget easily, right? I don't hold on to things. So it's easy for me to forget it, but it is good to talk about it because there are some female coaches who aren't in that environment, you know, yet. I hope it's yet, because I think the permission to criticize females is much higher than males in not just in coaching. We see the research that in a lot of industries that's the case. And what it does, Chris, is it I think it really makes you feel like you can't be the true version of yourself. And the reality is you probably can because they're gonna criticize you anyway.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right. Go just go for it.
SPEAKER_01It took me however many years you and I've already counted on this podcast to of coaching to really be in a place where it's like, and it it wasn't until here, because I do feel this fit for me here is so strong, like that I just finally said, okay, who do I really wanna be? Because you do, you go back and forth. You you get criticized as a female coach, as a young female coach so often that you kind of feel like you're back and forth on who you can be. And like you said, in this narrow frame of what's acceptable, um and uh it's hard. And it, you know, you can get a little chip on your shoulder and you can feel like you can't do right or wrong. But I think the biggest problem is when you just can't feel like you can be yourself. We're always better if we're just ourselves, right? Like obviously we want to be the best version of ourselves and continue to grow, but if we're just like really who we are, true to ourselves, we're gonna be more successful. And I do think what you're saying is like when you go through years and years of feeling like you can't truly be that, you know, again, you have where I ended up before coming to Northwestern where I was like, man, this this doesn't feel right. This this isn't really me. And so it is it is a struggle. And I know a lot of young female coaches are going through that. I'm sure some not young female coaches are going through it. Um, I just feel really lucky to be at a spot where I'm not dealing with that anymore. But it is, it's definitely a challenge over the years of coaching.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And what would be an example like again to bring it back? Yeah. Just one more question on the vulnerability side of it. I know I'm now gonna make force you to be vulnerable in describing your own vulnerability. Okay. So what would be an example like what would that what does that look like to you when you say like showing up with a little bit of vulnerability as a leader of a team?
SPEAKER_01I cry in front of my men and my women. Like I will cry in front of them. We've had I cry because I'm proud most of the time, right?
SPEAKER_00I think Yeah, it's an honest display of emotion. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But we've gone through, we had a young man who went through cancer, and it was quite a significant cancer diagnosis and quite a significant, like not only chemo and surgeries, and he's on one of our relays at NCAA's this year. That will make me cry. I will cry here with you because that is an incredibly motivating real life scenario, which we get to watch. And I our athletes are outstanding humans. And by me being able to show this to them, they aren't afraid to say, like, I can care. I can care deeply and be emotional. And me getting this way doesn't mean I cannot write a good season plan and keep you honest when we're training. The two things are not connected, right? And so I think that's a big one that I would have never done before and never really shown how I felt about the athletes. That I kept locked up. I just felt like I can't show that. And so I think that's a big change here. Like I will tell them all how much I how wonderful they are, how much I adore them all. And I'm I don't I know that doesn't impact my ability to coach them and to coach incredibly fast swimmers and help them get to the highest place in the sport possible.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And would you say, I mean, would it be accurate to say that was like a fear beforehand? I mean, before you got to that point, you're thinking like I'm gonna derail myself essentially.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think people I thought people wouldn't listen to me or take me as seriously, right? And I spent way too much energy on that instead of, well, let me just be myself in that regard and put all my energy into my season plan, into my coaching, into my, you know, the craft also. Um, and I I think I have found a good balance here of doing that. But yeah, I just I felt like when, you know, again, when you spend 20 years with people easily criticizing you for everything, you know, it's really easy to just be like, well, I'm just gonna kind of lock that up here at practice and just show you how professional, how whatever I am, and and I'm glad to be in a spot where I'm don't feel I need to do that anymore.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. One of the things you referenced earlier, too, that I wanted to follow up on. You talk about what a great fit Northwestern is for you. And I one of the things that I love to nerd out about, Rachel, which you're gonna help me with here in a second, is like I have an endless curiosity because and it goes to some of what we were saying earlier, like there's all these different contexts. You traveled around, you saw all these different situations. And I think in any place you're gonna have problems, right? You're gonna have certain um sort of structural things that are in place that maybe you could view as an obstacle. But also what I find is in the places that are really good, like uh right before we did this, I was talking to one of my client schools, the College of New New Jersey, right? I've been working with their men's program, uh, been one of the most successful division three teams. I think we we think they have the highest finish ever for a public school in Division III. You know, like frankly, that's a school that should not be that good if you just look at the the structure of it, right? Yeah. But the people in there, they looked at that and they went, like, why not us? Why don't we try to leverage what we have here, you know, and take what we have here and make the most of it. I guess here's where I'm coming back to my question. When you look at Northwestern, you say, like, it's a great fit. What do you see in the school?
SPEAKER_01Um so I I'm really passionate about education.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you were gonna be a teacher in the beginning.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I love to learn, I love to read, I am very curious by nature, just like you said, I find that the kind of student who comes to Northwestern is incredibly curious. And so for me, that's a really fun to work with those athletes. We do a ton of work with data. I built this swim index in which we track data markers over the years, and I get to share all that with them. And I it's really fun that they're just as curious. So I enjoy the kind of student who really gravitates toward Northwestern. I love the quarter system for them. They get to take a lot of different classes. I think that feeds their curiosity. But something I really like about Northwestern, and this does permeate through the athletic department. It starts at the university, but Northwestern was founded to be, you know, elite, if you want to use the word elite education. You know, we are top 10 in the country, but it's built on a base of being collaborative and being supportive. And it's not we're gonna succeed because you don't. It's a lot of people, professors and students and administrators who say we're all gonna succeed together. I think that is very, very unique at a top 10 academic institution. And I love that about this place is you really feel like everybody wants to help everyone be successful. And again, like that's what a team I wanted to build, the team where every single person matters, right? From the person like scoring your top points conference at NCAAs to the person who maybe doesn't meet make the travel roster, want to be a place where everyone matters in that journey. And it works well here because that's how the athletic department feels and that's how the university works. So that in that way, I feel like it's a really good fit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that is amazing, actually. I mean, as I'm listening to you say it, because I have worked in some places, some some high profile, and it can be really cutthroat.
SPEAKER_01Very cutthroat, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, like and it's not nice. It's it's just I'll give my opinion on it. I don't enjoy being in those environments because, you know, just the overall like stress of and and loneliness of some of those, I think it it's it presents a a really big challenge. And almost what you're saying, I was on the phone yesterday with Sam Barney, who says we have to discuss the fact that you're gonna be the CSEA. All right, we can discuss as well. Okay. So maybe we'll use this as a segue into it because this is something we were talking about on the on the phone as well. And I I was saying to her, like, I actually feel we are at an inflection point in the sport of swimming. Not only like with what I see with going on with Greg Meehan at USA swimming, his leadership there, Sam in the CSCAA, but the inflection point is really like things had devolved a little bit to where people were very siloed and like, well, I'm just gonna take care of like, you know, my team and my little situation, and I don't care what happens to everybody else. And for more or less like for existential reasons, I think, for the sport, we gotta start rowing together a little bit. Absolutely. I want to get your perception on that because you're stepping into this leadership role. You're gonna be the I mean, you're gonna be the volunteer leader of college swim coaches in the United States.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's when I was asked to do it. So how the that role works is you come in two years, so I started two years ago, and you're basically getting to watch and learn everything. So that when you do step into the role, you've already been kind of primed for two years. And then you also sit on the board for two years after to help continuing transition. I think it's a really smart way to set it up, right? So you really come in knowing what is happening. But it I when this started, and when I was on the phone with Sam, she was like, this is what we will be going through in two years. And she nailed it right on the head, like, that is what we are doing. And she's like, we need someone who's like wants to work and wants to really help. And I'm really honored to be in that position. I know, especially as I know you said this might come out after NCAA's, but right now, you know, before this podcast, I was letting Chat GPT uh figure out the cut line for the men's pre s pre-selection sheets.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, pre-selection sheets came out the morning that we're recording this. Yes.
SPEAKER_01And and I know, I know there's a lot of controversy and there's things that we have to tweak, but I agree with you. We're we're at a spot where it's, you know, if you don't move forward, you're moving backwards. And that's what's happening to our sport. And well, I credit Sam for just always doing due diligence on any part of a conversation, right? If you ask her, okay, okay, we say we're doing this change for this reason, and she'll tell you all the people she's talked to, she's called, she's interviewed. And so, you know, I I know there's people who aren't happy and they won't be happy with this cut line for the men. But I also feel really strongly that the CSCAA has done a lot of due diligence and in a way that we think that some of these things are really meaningful to help us move forward and not just stand still. I mean, we've see examples of sports. Softball made changes, volleyball made changes, like wrestling was almost non-existent and now they're thriving. But the thing is they all came together and knew things had to change in their sport. And so I'm I'm just proud of the CSCAA and the NCAA and whoever else has, you know, been helping through this to know it's like change is change is definitely necessary.
SPEAKER_00Painful, but yeah, necessary. Let me let me ask you something too, because I mean I think of course the changes to NCAA, though those are like those are dominating the sort of that that's a hot issue, right, in in news. But from your vantage point, um, and I think I hear you that like, yeah, maybe maybe we're not done, maybe there are things to tweak. I don't want you to commit to to to like, you know, I we're not gonna break news on here, Rachel Stratton Mills says like, et cetera, et cetera.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm not the president yet. I have a few weeks, so it's fine. It doesn't hold any value.
SPEAKER_00That's right. That's right. But like, what are you gonna be looking for? You know, I think evaluation is such an important coaching skill. And I I can hear from from you that you're like a data-driven person, that swim index thing that you're talking about. What are you gonna be looking for in terms of, okay, these are gonna be indicators of whether or not these changes that we made are pulling us in a positive direction or not?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's a really hard question. I mean, I I think one, something the CSC always says, and Sam does do a good job of saying it, is like, this isn't her making decisions, this is the group making decisions. This is supposed to just be the voice of all college coaches. I think what we need is continued feedback. I think we see people who are unhappy with the changes, and I get it. Like, I again, I don't think we're done. I think there's always going to be tweaks when you change something. But also there was so much time this was out and available for people to look over. I think we were all a little surprised the NCAA approved it mid-season. I will say that. I will say that.
SPEAKER_00December was tough.
SPEAKER_01That was very surprising, and uh no one at the CSCAA thought that. So we all thought, you know, that they would not make changes once the season has begun. But that's, you know, their prerogative. And um, but I think what we just keep looking for feedback and looking for, I mean, we we look at the women's meet in terms of data and we see it didn't change the cut line too much on the women's side. Some events faster that, you know, the women's too free is just faster. That just event worldwide is just getting fast. So we didn't see that many changes. I think we we'll see more on the men, and we know there's some tweaks that will have to be done there. But I also think it's just talking to continuing to talk to ESPN and get their take on how we become have some linear coverage. That's the real goal is how do we get on TV, but really listening to everyone. I I told Sam the other day the biggest pushback right now is not having B finals at NCAA's. And and I think that's something we we just want to we wanna voice what the coaches think is most important, but we want to make sure it's people who are hearing kind of all sides of the story and know all the due diligence. And um I don't know if that was a great answer or not, but it's definitely just trying to make sure we're getting a lot of feedback from not only the coaches from athletic departments, from mid-major athletic departments, from ESPN and and continuing to find a plan that moves us forward, but maybe doesn't have some impact on I think what we don't want is we don't want any of these changes to impact the outcome of the championship. That I feel very strongly about. And so I think we look at it after NCAAs, and if we feel like these genuinely impacted or potentially impacted the outcome of the championship, I think we would need to revisit that. That's just my take.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I think that's a pretty comprehensive answer. I mean, I think certainly like the underlying piece of this, as I've heard it explained to me, has a lot to do with the coverage, right? And like that's probably something that we're gonna be able to evaluate more in the short term. If I start to look at secondary reasons like and that's where, again, the B final, like I recorded something responding to what Brian Schrader had put out there that's getting some coverage on Swim Slam. I actually invited Brian. Brian, you were invited to come on the podcast, but you chose to go on with Mel Stewart instead. I guess I can't blame you. Swim Swam's a bigger outlet. However, responding to some of the and I said, like, just as a pure swim coach, like, yeah, I want B finals too. But like that's one of those things where that's it's kind of my heart speaking.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Right? When I when I get into my head, I go, maybe there's an argument that we don't need to have B finals in the nights, like we don't have to have those ninth through 16th in the finals. Let's see what happens. Let's let's like let's see what the finals broadcast is like.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And that's like let's get through it and like let's see what the changes are like. I agree with you. I mean, of course, I've heard some decent kind of counter-arguments of its experience. And so how do they get more experience swimming at night if they haven't? I I think that's interesting. I also wonder if the top eight relays at night have a competitive advantage over prelim relays. I think it could be said if you are in top 16, like, do you have a competitive advantage the next day if you didn't have to uh race again over someone who did? I think there's so many unknowns. And so with the people who are, you know, really unhappy, I get it, but let's let's just it's gonna happen anyway. We're not changing it now for this year. And then let's sit down and say, actually, that wasn't as bad as I thought. You know? So I I'm excited that there's at least change happening and and hopefully that means some good growth for the sport, and then we'll just see how it plays out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right, we're gonna pivot to the final, the personal section. Just in case you thought the vulnerability question earlier was not, you know, penetrating enough to your personal life.
SPEAKER_01It's all right. I've already cried once. It can't get worse than that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Um, let's get to some pieces of this. I mean, you're you're talking about like being the best version of yourself, but something that I always like to ask coaches, because I think I I don't know, I find the answers always are super, super interesting, is what are you working on developing within yourself? Because I think as coaches, like we can be very focused. Like I'm sure you have, you know, however many athletes, 50, 60 athletes at Northwestern, and in your mind, it's like, you know, there's a file for every single one of them. Like, what are we working on? Yeah. Right. But I think it's another thing, you as a coach. I mean, we are also still growing. We're we're changing, we're developing. So what is it that in particular you would say like you're working on within yourself?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I would say there's not a file for everyone, there's a spreadsheet. The number of spreadsheets I have is absurd. I love it. We need to do a second podcast. I'll just show you all the Oh my gosh, amazing. I think listening is always been harder for me. And so trying to, and this has been a big change even since I've been here, but I need constant reminders of I always want to help our athletes develop in ways that they feel like they have a lot of ownership over their career and their, you know, their whole lives. And I never I want them to lead these conversations. I want other people, I want to hear what other people are saying before I just talk. And that's challenging for me. I am uh not have I've historically been a terrible listener. I would say I haven't been terrible since I've been at Northwestern. I've been like average, maybe.
SPEAKER_00You brought yourself up to average.
SPEAKER_01I averaged out. And I do I do have to remind myself often of that. This is another great reminder because I I start this week and then finish up after N C double A is doing a meeting with every athlete on the team, and it'd be a good reminder to just listen more than I talk. So I would say that's something that I and then once the season gets rolling and I You know, I'm like constantly feel like my engine's reving constantly and we're going from meat to meat, and it is so easy to just tell someone I'm thinking so I can move on. And I I just I try to be better at listening. I it's a work in progress for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, is it I mean, is there a factor to it? Is just like it's slow, right? The process of listening to somebody can you really got to slow it up?
SPEAKER_01Makes me look like such a jerk. Like somebody will be starting to explain something, and my brain has already processed what they're saying. And I'm like, do I really need to listen to them keep going? But yes, yes, I do. I do need to listen to it. So part of it's that it's not like a lack of it really is not like a lack of respect for the people I'm talking to. I think that's it. It's just like the time it takes and it's worthwhile time and it's ways I can keep getting better, you know? And I would say the other thing is not feeling like my answer isn't always the right answer. And so sometimes that factors in with it as well, right? Like I'm listening, but I'm probably right here. So shouldn't I just say what I think? But that is not true either. So just trying to like do a better job of that is really important. I'm trying, trying.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. In that vein, I mean, this is really leads into my second question, which is who are the people who can check and challenge you? Like who do you who do you look to to be like, listen, I need you to set me straight when when I go off on the wrong direction?
SPEAKER_01Well, I have a preteen daughter, so if that doesn't set you straight every day of my life, like she sets me straight, you know.
SPEAKER_00So I am feeling you so hard on that one. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01I mean, but it is, it's obviously not about work items. Sometimes it is. Like I I've always pretty much told her everything, so she just gets to hear what's going on. But but I think it is a good reminder when you get home, like, hey, you know, you got to put all your focus on here, and uh I'm gonna humble you every day as a preteen girl and you're gonna work through it. So I think that's a big one. Um, I will still call Bob often, um, and I think that helps. And um and then I d I I think there's other great people, Steph Moreno at Georgia. I will call her if bad things going on uh that I have questions about. Um but yeah, I mean I I think it's just having the it's it's hard sometimes, right? I have like this amazing coaching staff, but there's still no one yet who will tell me I'm wrong, which maybe they should more. I can encourage that more because I am wrong. But you know, um, and obviously I have a husband who's in the sport, and so I get a lot of good advice and information from him as well. So I think like overall it's you know, I have some people who will kind of tell me how it is for sure.
SPEAKER_00I think we sort of covered this earlier, but I I want to ask this in a specific way. Because I think this is such a rich quest rich question. I'll I'll take a minute to set it up because I we were having this conversation earlier about the way that you um absorbed some critique specifically we were talking about the time with Bob, but I I I think that, you know, what I run into a lot in my work, being people and and trying to sort of rebuild or reconstruct their psychological processes. I think w we're at this strange stage where maybe even when you and I were coming up and swimming or before that time, like you were expected just to kind of absorb critiques and we weren't really taught how to absorb them, but we were just like, you're gonna, you're gonna, you know, that some adult is gonna speak pretty harshly to you and you gotta just take it, right? Like that was something that went on. And I we've moved on to that, and I think that's actually overall positive. I I think it's good that coaching has progressed beyond that point, but at the same time, I think I'm seeing a lot of athletes coming up with this through the system who, through some misapplication, in my opinion, of psychological concepts, they have not been critiqued very much. And too many of them, in my opinion, make it to the college level without a real sense of what they're gonna do in that situation. And then then maybe they get a coach like you. I think I would imagine you can be pretty tough on people. I think that's positive. And they just don't know how to take that that critique and and make it work for them. I guess where I'm coming with the question is like if those people are listening right now and you you're trying to set a good example for them, how do you approach that? How do you try to, you know, look around and not make critiques something that just like batter you into submission, right? But something that actually is fuel for you to get better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a really great question. And it is I think it evolves too as like generations go by and the different athletes. I would say there's a few things. I think the base is they need to know you care about them as humans first, right? And without that, it is really hard to layer criticism on top of it. I would say number two is what we do a lot of here. It's like I have a spreadsheet for everyone in my training group. They know every practice they have, every day of the week. Everyone logs in, they know what they're doing in advance. The truth is they're not the same. And they were raised differently and they've been criticized differently growing up, and they have a different understanding of what pushes them. That that I put a lot of effort into that we're not looking at them all the same. So the way I coach some people is very different than others. And that doesn't mean someone is better or someone is not. I mean, we have a wide range of athletes doing a really tremendous job, and like I have to look at each one of them differently and know that how I connect to them, especially when you're coaching both men and women. Now, there can be, I I think there's it's a generalization, but we still look at them as individuals, but there's some ways you can coach a group of men that feels different than a group of women in terms of feedback and criticism. And I think you can give criticism to a group of men and they're fine, but individually it's harder for them. You can give feedback criticism to an individual female and it's better than criticizing in front of the whole group. It's like little things like that that I think are important to note. But I also, this is like a big part of the data. I also use the numbers and the information to help guide that. So it doesn't feel like, oh, I didn't do this right because, oh, I'm not trying. I don't care. I'm a lousy person. You're like, no, you didn't because your velocity on your fourth and fifth dolphin kick slowed down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that helps a lot. It really takes away some of that emotional connection. I mean, obviously you want to be emotionally connected to the sport and excited to race, but not that like, you know, it's still like there's a science behind all of this. And I think that's helped a lot is like being able to show that and like learn to grow from from that, from the data, from the numbers, I think helps a lot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, one of the I I just want to echo what you're saying. I mean, one of the things that I have, you know, I'm I'm out and a lot of the work I'm doing right now is is working with coaches and trying to take some of the stuff that I do and um teach other coaches how to use it. And it speaks to something that you're referencing there, and I want to just highlight this for the audience because I think it's it's a really important insight you just shared. When people are in a situation, let's say this is an example I use all the time, let's say an athlete has just swung a race and they're disappointed, right? They're they're not happy. Athletes touch the wall, they look at the clock, they have an instant emotional reaction, right? That happens many times over over the course of a year. Now, what I've observed so many times, and I've experienced this as well, sometimes they come back to the conversation, and you as a coach, like you want to teach them something, right? But they're so wrapped up in the emotion of what's going on, nothing can come in. And you have all sorts of strategies you can use, right? You maybe you send them to the warm down pool, maybe you give them some time, and then you revisit the conversation later. But what I have found is really effective, and I can see you using this, is if you have tools for pushing them into an analytical space, it can really make a difference in terms of what they are able to take in. So, like I had a coach from Switzerland offer this to me, you know, just ask a swimmer to like rate not the performance just against all other performances, but like, how did you do today? Scale of one to a hundred. Does that simple math taking them away from did I like the swim? Did I not like the swim, etc.? Like starting to ask them to analyze a little bit, all of a sudden they're br they're in a different part of their brain, right? They're they're thinking in a different way. And now maybe they are able to take in some information because now we're not, now you're not as a coach having an argument about them, should you be happy with that time, should you not be happy with that time? You're going, hey, I want to help you do better. And we agree sort of on some crucial parts of this. And like, how do we, how do we work together essentially to make that happen?
SPEAKER_01It's funny because most of our swimmers, it's not everyone, of course, but most swimmers have been doing this since they were little kids. And so you learn to relate to the sport in the way that eight, nine, 10-year-olds relate to things. Like sometimes I'll ask them, like, you're not still playing with the same toys you did at that age. Like, but it's so it's that part's really interesting. So they do, they have that like emotion because that's the emotion they learned when they would like dive in. Okay, that was good. And then, but at some points, like sometimes there's some bad emotions they learned early on or expectations. And so I I agree. It's just like, how do you I like what you said, like getting into that different part of the brain? That's not kind of doing the emotional response that's doing the kind of analytical data response. It really helps.
SPEAKER_00Because we all, I mean, I hear this in what you're saying as well. Like, we all want people who are emotionally invested in what they're doing. Those are I take those people a hundred out of a hundred, but sometimes your emotional investment, right, has you behaving in a way that's completely counterproductive to what you're trying to accomplish. And that's sort of like I think a a big thing for coaches to help athletes do, because you you nailed it. I mean, that um I've heard somebody share a theory that like a lot of athletes are trapped maturity-wise at the age that they became good.
SPEAKER_01Right?
SPEAKER_00So that you can just end up.
SPEAKER_01Interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um you don't have to be trapped there, but like some are, yeah. Yeah. You and you can see like even just a before you have any kind of influence over it, like the late bloomers in your program, you go, like, oh, why is that person so mature? Like they didn't get fast or whatever, have a perception of themselves as fast until maybe they were 17 or 18, and they had more time to kind of like be a little bit more pliable in their approach to things. Because once you have a perception I'm good, everybody starts to get a little bit defensive of that. Right. Right. And like I have to keep what I'm doing to a certain extent because that's what makes me good.
SPEAKER_01We call that swim baggage.
SPEAKER_00Swim baggage, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we we look at the athletes and you're totally right. Like we have, I think a lot of our men's team is just Ben Late Bloomers. And so they're just coming into it in a way of they're just finding their path to excellence now. And so they don't have this, again, identity as like I'm good at a younger age they're working through, or as I like to call it, any swim baggage. That there's no I should be this or I should be that fast, or I remember when I was, and I remember what I did when I swam this time when I was 13 years old. I was like, well, you're not the same. We're not gonna um We can't go back. We can't go back, and it doesn't work that way. So yeah, I I hear you. It's like those definitely we see that on our team a lot with so many late bloomers on the men's side, right? It's just it feels different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's a good stopping point for us. Uh Rachel, it's been amazing talking to you. Um when you get to the part of the other podcast where you're referenced, okay. I made a very specific ask. So, you know, that's just a teaser for you.
SPEAKER_01All right. I will I will be sure to finish the rest of this podcast.
SPEAKER_00Good luck, good luck at NCAAs. Of course, we'll know how we'll know how Northwestern did by the time this comes out, but um we're recording this before, so so good luck.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Chris.
SPEAKER_00Any any place you want to send people, you want to pump up some social media pages, um, some personal projects you're working on.
SPEAKER_01We want people to watch NCAAs. Yeah. Right? I want people to watch NCAAs. I want us to continue to to grow that. And we see people watch the Olympics, we see numbers, we see how widely watched our sport is. I think we just want to keep becoming a spot where every year, it's not every four years, every year people are really excited to watch that meet. So anyone listening who doesn't tune in and doesn't stream it and you know encourage people to do it, have watch parties with your club teams, and I think that's something that can really continue to help the sport when we just have try to have more people tune in. So that's that's what my plug will be for this for this year.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe I should have some brief listeners. I should have like a live uh gathering for them. Yeah. And see okay, that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_01It'll be fun.
SPEAKER_00Listeners, if you're interested in that, let me know. You can reach out to me, crdesantis at gmail.com. You can go to my website, Christycoach.com, you can fill out a contact form in case you'd like to do things more complicated than directly emailing me. Or you can DM me on Instagram, Christy underscore coach. You'll find clips of this podcast, clips of all sorts of podcasts. We release one of these every week. I'm committed 52 weeks out of the year.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00So, and uh we bring this to you for free, but you can always donate. Uh, you can make one time donations, ongoing donations to the podcast to continue to support this. But thank you, uh Rachel. Thank you to everybody for listening, and I'll be back with you guys again in a week.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having me, Chris.