Leadership, Responsibility, and Shame in The Odyssey

What can The Odyssey teach us about leadership when every available choice carries consequences?

Chris is joined by Juliet Seuss for a different kind of episode: a conversation about Christopher Nolan’s The Odyssey and the questions it raises about responsibility, power, guilt, and shame. They examine whether Odysseus accepts responsibility for the people who follow him, how Penelope exercises power within an unjust system, and what Sinon’s story reveals about the shame society places on marginalized people.

Along the way, they explore one of leadership’s hardest realities: sometimes there is no good decision—only the least-bad one. What matters is not whether a leader can prevent every bad outcome, but how they respond to circumstances they cannot fully control.

This conversation contains major spoilers for The Odyssey.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Hello and welcome to the swim brief. I'm Chris DeSantis, and it is my great pleasure to be joined for the second time by Juliet Seuss. Juliet, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Really good. Yeah, I'm having a great morning.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

So you are up bright and early and very, very excited. This podcast that we're going to do today is something different. And I want to credit Juliet. Juliet, this is your idea. Today we're going to talk about the Odyssey movie. We're going to try to distill, I think, some relevance from the movie to this audience of coaches. And we may do something like this in the future. A lot of that's going to be based on how the audience responds to this. You saw the Odyssey. You were so excited. I had not seen it yet. I was waiting. And I'm very fresh off of watching it. I saw it last night with my daughter. I had to wait for her to get home from Sleepaway Camp. We saw it together.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

It's the cutest.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

And we both walked out of the theater. We were like, this is amazing. That was so amazing. It was so incredible. I know you really like the movie as well. I asked you to bring two topics. And as a gracious host, Juliet, I'm going to allow you to go first. So give me your first point that you want to discuss from The Odyssey. And for everybody, spoilers for the movie The Odyssey. Don't if you don't want to know what happens in the movie The Odyssey, don't listen to this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Okay. Well, let me just like give two seconds of background is that first, I don't I'm not a huge movie buff. Like, that's not my area of expertise, but I am a classic studies minor in college. And my my thesis and my Fulbright were both on translation theory. So like this is like why I was so nerding out over it. But that in like just I love books. So anyway, so I'm not a Christopher Nolan Stan by any stretch of the imagination. So I didn't was a little worried, or like I don't know, worried's not the right word, but like interested going in because I didn't know like how they were gonna go with this. And I think people were like so weird weirdly annoyed at different things within the film.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

And there was a lot of controversy going like into it in terms of if it was a guerrilla marketing campaign, it kind of worked in a way because it drew a lot of attention to it. Just people kind of like making guesses about what the movie was gonna be like based off the trailers and getting angry about stuff, all kinds of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

All kinds of stuff. And of course, like my thing is like, huh, I wonder how they're gonna translate from written to visual, and like that was what I cared about. And so, like, I think that if people go and see it, I would say it's not a hundred percent Homer's Odyssey. But I think that the thing that's very interesting to the point of this podcast is how Odysseus in the movie approaches his leadership of his leadership.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Yes, I want to talk about that as well. So let's see, I wanna I'm interested in what you what you have brought.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Okay, so I feel like if you've read the text, that Odysseus does not really feel any guilt in that text whatsoever. And I feel like almost having a direct translation of Odysseus from Homer into 2026 would have been pretty irresponsible. This man just going around to like random places and like raping and pillaging and just taking what they want and then being like, and some people died and we were sad and we sailed away, and that was it. So I was like so intrigued by this sort of like feeling of responsibility that he felt for his people in ways that I didn't see in the text. And I thought that that was, you know, an interesting turn for Christopher Nolan to take in terms of being like, well, what does leadership and heroism look like in 2026 versus in ancient Greece?

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Yeah. And I think a lot of it was subtext. I totally agree with you, by the way. We may disagree on some of these points as we get in, but I totally agree with you. A lot of it was subtext. I mean, a lot of it is in the visual medium, right? We talk about the difference. Like I'm not I'm not that familiar with the original story, but I think you bring up a great point in the sense that a lot of it is in Matt Damon's acting. It's not all in the dialogue in terms of how he conveys what you're talking about. And that is an advantage of a of a visual medium that you can you can communicate things in different ways than you could necessarily just in a in a long form poem.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Oh, yeah, totally. Uh I mean, I thought I thought Matt Damon did a great job. Um the part where he was like tied to the mast, just like the the expressions that he had and all of that. I like I thought that was incredible and listening to the sirens. And so I I feel like my question regarding the leadership is did he accept responsibility or was he seeking absolution at the end as he was like sailing away into this? Because that ending is not in Homer.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Right. He doesn't sail west and into exile. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

No, he's almost starts a civil war in Ithaca with the parents of the suitors and becomes king. That whole that's a whole different thing. And so like I was interested to hear your perspective.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

I I tend to think that he did accept responsibility, and I think it's one of the things that I have enjoyed in modern portrayals as well. That there's there's much more of Odysseus's character gets fleshed out and gets to be much more multifaceted. I think it's a little bit ambiguous. I think it's worth asking that question because it's not it's not a hundred percent, I can't say a hundred percent for sure that he that he is that, but I I think that he is uh and I my probably my primary evidence for it at the end, and this is one of my favorite parts of the movie, the parts actually when he comes back to Ithaca, just play on some emotional heartstrings with me that are are really, really impactful. And it was his conversation through the screen with Penelope as he's recounting what they did in in Troy and some of the other things that have occurred on his trip and even reckoning, I think, with his own guilt over the fact that maybe if he maybe at points on this journey, he didn't actually want to come home. That he was he was not just lost, but he was actively avoiding this homecoming, even though he knew it was really, really painful for people on all sorts of levels back home who were waiting for him or were being mistreated because he was not there. And so I think that conversation sort of tips me over into that. What what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 7:39

You know, I think that there are like there are signs to both ways. I felt like him just being able to sail off and like go into the West in exile, to me, that feels a little bit like a scapegoat. Like it felt a little bit to me like you're sailing away from all of these problems and just leaving Telemachus to like figure it out. And you know, but I do think obviously Christopher Nolan like also built up this possibility for this mythical space where they can pay homage to the dead. So I think that there's like a little bit of both. Like I think he wants to take responsibility, and I think that that that part definitely comes through is like especially when he sees Athena in the woman that's about to be killed in Troy. And you can see that he's like, you know, throughout the movie, just kind of being like, oh my God, what did we do here? But I felt like when he sailed away, I was like, that's kind of seems like the easy way out. Like it seems like you should have to sit and like face all of the parents whose sons you took into war. But I also thought that it was like, you know, a mo like I said, like it's a modern, like that to me, like is Christopher Nolan's hero in like all of the five movies that I've seen of his, three movies that I've seen of his. Who knows? Um so I thought that that, and so I kind of was like a little bit like on that ending, but I'm still deciding.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Okay, well, I think you've provided me with a perfect segue because my first point is about Odysseus as well. And Odysseus, I think, has always been an accessible hero in that if you had to say like what is his superpower, his superpower is basically intelligence, right? Yeah, totally that he can that he is smarter when when all of the Greek heroes go off to war. You know, Agamemnon is this like ruthless guy, and Menelaus is the richest man in all of Greece, and Ajax is like seven feet tall, and Achilles is basically a demigod. Odysseus just has smarts. That's what he's got. And yet he's the one who actually makes the decisive decision that wins the war. And what I think they did a brilliant job portraying in the movie, that I think is a very relevant leadership lesson as well, is at all these junctures on the trip, he finds himself in some, you know, just the craziest circumstances you can possibly find. And I think what they're trying to communicate is intelligence, wisdom, whatever you want to call it, it's not about avoiding mistakes or avoiding bad situations. It's what you do when the shit hits the fan. And I think they did a great job of portraying Odysseus as a hero who, you know, stumbles into some situations that you're like, how is he possibly going to get out of this? And he's resourceful, he doesn't panic, he manages to lead his group of men through the situation so that they can come out the other end of it. He's very much portrayed as doing his best and honestly doing probably better than almost anybody you would throw in the same situation. I think you could take somebody else and plug them into Odysseus, and he never makes it back. And his crew probably all gets eaten by Polyphemus in the beginning of the movie, like because they attack right away, and you know, they never come up with a plan to head out of this. And so that was I I sort of wrote down some of those. I I mentioned the the polyphemus pieces once. The other place where they really showed it uh quite well was acting on the advice of the prophet Tiresias. When it comes to Scylla and Crybdis, the great whirlpool and the monster coming out, he basically lies or lies by omission to his crew in order to get them to take the least bad decision. It's not a good decision. Guys get snatched up by a monster and die. It's not it's not an ideal decision, but it's the best possible decision he could make in the situation. And I think that has some parallels with To scoring rosters. I think it has parallels to anybody in leadership. Like you can cherry pick bad outcomes and say, that's your fault, that's your fault, that's your fault when you're in charge. What I think you should evaluate people on and what you should be aiming for as a leader is again not avoiding bad outcomes, not avoiding bad events. You are not godlike, you cannot control everything that is happening. But what are you doing with the circumstances that you find yourselves in? Because that's also what you're trying to impart on your athletes. And I think the final piece of this is when he comes back, right? That he's he's also in the underworld learned this lesson from Agamemnon, who is kind of like a villain of this movie. I mean, he sacrifices his daughter in the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

That's all that's all real.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

No, I know, but he's definitely a villain. Portrayed in this movie like Darth Vader, basically. You know, there's this big dramatic scene where the gate gates of Troy, you know, bust open and guys are pouring it, and Agamemnon's just standing there, like like Darth Vader, kind of like in his big armor walking in, right? But Agamemnon, for a while, uh Odysseus thinks he's had a nice homecoming. He does not end up with a nice homecoming, which I'll talk a little bit about in my second point.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

Yes, but he Odysseus then is very, very tactical about the way that he comes home and the way that he sets up the sort of ultimate conflict of this movie on terms where he has some kind of chance for being successful in in what he's trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, no, I okay, so I felt like he was intelligent in the movie, but he was not as clever or witty as he is in the originals, which is also fairly He wasn't infallibly w wise, right? Right. And but like but his hubris in the text is like what leads them on this like huge thing. Well, this delay, sidetrack, whatever, detour. And that's really missing the responsibility that actually falls on Odysseus that like this, it's his fault that they're in this 10-year detour.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

But I agree, again, that was an irresponsible thing to portray in 2026. Like having somebody who's like, hey, we have to navigate these challenges and we have to do them in a way that is true to today. We can't just like have this guy doing these very irresponsible things and like being clever and witty, and then just kind of like writing off what he does as being like the way things are, right? Like that would have been a mess. And so I really do think that that part where he has to sail like either around Charybdis or through Charybdis, which is if you all don't know, it's like a giant whirlpool. And then and and so initially he does try to like trick the men into being like, just go, just go down into that. And the guys are like, What are you talking about? Let's just go through this like really nice looking thing. And I think also it's like to me, there's a moment there of being a head coach that was like, you know, what information does my team, my assistants, what do they need to get like through this moment or like past it? And you know, there's no to me, there's not necessarily a right answer, right? There's plenty of coaches who would have talked to the whole crew and been like, hey, this is what I heard from from the underworld. Here are our options, and you know, like we gotta kind of figure this out together. And then there's gonna be people who are like, we're gonna lead, who are just or who they're just gonna make decisive action and being like, nope, we're going this way and not try to trick them. Or maybe, I don't know, not like tricking you know, you know, head coaches are trying to like trick their athletes like that. But anyway, like, you know, it's just it was just such an interesting moment of like, how do we in this moment that we're in right now take responsibility for our actions and like move through these challenges and like what's the best way of doing that? And I think that Odysseus shows that there is no right way, and oftentimes like there's no good decision. There's not there might be a better decision in the sense of losing everybody versus losing a couple of people. And I so I thought that that was like a really fascinating part as well. Yeah, it's more clever.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

Least bad decision. My second point, and I here's the headline that I wrote for myself in my notes. Because I think, as I mentioned earlier, I saw this with my daughter as well, and I want to preface this by saying one of the approaches that I have to parenting, I I think it's the best approach, but you know, I I always could be wrong. I always try to shoot my kids straight. Kids are really curious, they ask a lot of questions, they want to understand the world, and I always try to shoot them straight and talk to things, talk to them about things in a way that they will understand, but that there'll be no ambiguity like I was lying. My headline here is life is unfair, but you're never powerless. And I think that's a very, very important message that is embodied throughout this movie where you have all sorts of characters that, you know, you look at them and think they're in this disadvantaged position, right? They they they don't have quote unquote the power in whatever relationship, whatever situation you find them in, and yet they find ways to exercise power. I I have a minor example, and then I have a major example. The minor, which I teased earlier, um, you have Agamemnon's homecoming, and initially, again, it's portrayed that he made it home quickly and safely, and you know, everybody celebrated as he was the you know victorious general. But Agamemnon is murdered by his wife, Clytemnestra, who has been fuming since he left for ten years. Since his first act upon, you know, declaring war is to throw his daughter into the sea as a sacrifice for good omens, Clytemnestra. She says, she literally, you're gonna take responsibility for your actions, and I will be the one who will deliver that responsibility to the story. But the major example, of course, is Penelope. And this is the second reason why I love the Odyssey so much, because Penelope is such an amazing character, and I love the way that Penelope is portrayed in this movie. Because in this story, right, we think of it the primary, the sort of the A plot is Odysseus is gone for 20 years, he's fighting in the war for 10 years, it's taking 10 years, get home. The B plot is essentially Penelope is back in Ithaca, and she is holding Ithaca together with every ounce of cleverness and resourcefulness she possibly can. And I think they did a really good job portraying that in this movie. And again, she's in a bad circumstance. There's a lot of things she cannot do. She cannot, she cannot simply say, I'm the Queen of Ithaca now, everybody go home and, you know, like I've got this. That's not an option that's available to her. And so she's put in this situation where she's got the suitors, she has to show them enough hospitality, and yet not allow any of them to marry her, not only because she's loves Odysseus and believes that Odysseus is alive, but also because it's the best thing for Ithaca. And crucially, they're gonna murder her son. So she's got these like three balls in the air, and she's keeping it masterfully. Uh they talk about they they they do a very sort of pass at this uh burial shroud that Penelope is weaving. I love that, you know, somewhere around the weaving is when she has a conversation with Telemachus. And of course, Telemachus is this kid who, you know, his mom is trying to protect him. She's trying to get him up to being the king in this story. And he's also kind of totally focused on, you know, how do I get up there? And just to smack him down for one moment to be like, hey, listen, Judo, by the way, I could do this. I have been doing this. I have been keeping everything here on lock for 20 years. And, you know, if everybody would just figure out that we wouldn't have any of these problems, but unfortunately, that's not the place we find ourselves in, which brings me to the the final point, which is the penultimate, you know, scene of the Odyssey where Penelope issues the challenge to the suitors with the bow. That's Penelope's idea. It's not it's not a display.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Did the suitors cheer? Or not the suitors, did the did your um theater cheer when he got the bow?

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Okay, mine did too. Like he gets the cathartic moment. And he does the like doing or whatever, he makes the noise, and the whole theater was like, Wait, I went on opening weekend, so it was full.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

Yeah. It's a very cathartic moment, right, when Odysseus picks up this bow, and I think that's probably the part of the scene that that is very Memorable for people, but again, I want to return to it. It's Penelope's idea to do this challenge, and she has laid it specifically because she has calculated that the suitors are not going to be up to the task. She has figured out that Odysseus is the beggar, even though Odysseus is trying to be all like clever and you know like a not revealing his identity and and throwing a lot of subterfuge. She's seen right through him. And I think even if I could put one more, one more point, the discussion that the two of them had in bed before Odysseus goes off, because it goes to the first point that we're talking about where it very well sets up that like, okay, I'm gonna go do this thing, and the only reason I'm doing it is that it's the least bad option. It's not that I think it's a good idea to go fight Troy. In fact, it's a terrible idea, and that's borne out by the events. And Penelope knows that as well, and she's she's shown as I think, you know, Odysseus is this hero known for his intelligence. But Penelope is, if not his equal, she's she's a little bit she is finding every opportunity she has to influence events. And and I think that's really, really powerful. And I I to bring it back to why I say this to my kids is, you know, especially my daughter who I saw this with is somebody who has a clear sense of justice. And many of the questions that she had for me in the car were about very unjust things that happened in the movie. What I want her to learn as a parent from all of this is I want her to be able to simultaneously hold in her head that the world is unjust and that there will be situations where she will maybe feel powerless, but she's but she's not. What do you uh Okay?

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Well, I love Penelope is like one of my favorite characters, just like in especially like in the ancient Greece canon, right? Like she is definitely one of the best depictions of women from the time period. And I thought that he did an A minus job depicting her. I felt like the way that he portrayed Penelope was like, I think the best that we were gonna get in like in a three-hour movie, right? And I felt like that one point where she said, like, I have been queen. I have been queen. That was the moment where I was like, yes, yes, you have. But like Antonus does not call out Penelope in the book. Antinus is not smart enough to realize that she's like undoing this shroud. But like at the same time, like they did do a good job, I think, of trying to like make her Odysseus' equal and like make her a match and then show that, like, yeah, she is really powerful in this moment. I think the only thing that I won't forgive Christopher Nolan for is like by making Penelope complicit in the violence at the end, by having her push her slave into the violence and then closing the doors on her. And I felt like that that was like an area where like I didn't, I didn't appreciate that as much. But I can understand why they did it, right? Again, to try to make Penelope Odysseus's pair. Like for every time that he's intelligent, she's intelligent. For every time that he leads, she leads. And for every time he's violent, she's violent, you know, or like maybe not as much, obviously. But I thought that I think that that's what he was trying to do in that moment. And it honestly, sitting here with you, kind of reminds me of you and Kate. In like how like you two are just like so like equal and matched for each other. There was just something that's like really beautiful about that that pairing that obviously has lasted three thousand thousand years or whatever it's been.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

Thank you for saying that because I I'm really curious for you to watch the return. I think that if you thought this was an A- portrayal of Penelope, the return is is an A portrayal. Um I believe it's Juliet Benoche who plays her in that movie.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

The name Juliet. That's all you had to say. That's all you had to say.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

And it's, you know, it's the story just post-Ithaca, so Penelope's uh in it a lot more. She's she's a main character, whereas in the Odyssey, she is more of a secondary character. I I really I'm flattered by the point about me and Kate, but I saw the return on a plane and I was crying so many times in the movie because I told Kate when I got home, I said, You're my Penelope. That's why it really, really touched me. Yeah. And she's still seen neither movie, Juliet. Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

You know what? It's not for everybody. I feel like most times when people are like, Have you seen this movie? I'm like, nope.

unknown 27:14

No.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Okay. Get to your let's hear your sin in point. So this this is where people may be like, okay, you've gone very far afield, but let's hear it. I'm very curious.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

So if you're like not a super history nerd, this is like, no, you're not gonna be. Okay, but but to your point about Penelope, there are tons of really cool books that are coming out and have been coming out about like the women of Troy. So Pat Barker wrote like a three-part um book, Circe um by Madeline Miller. So if you're interested in like that, there's some really cool novels out there that are like modern takes on some of the women in it. Um and there's obviously like modern takes on all of the Odyssey, but you know, um, so that there's that. Um okay, so Sinon, fascinating character because he does not exist in Homer, not in the Iliad, not in the Odyssey. And in fact, he doesn't show up for like a couple centuries later until Virgil, who's Roman in the Aeneid, and then he comes back in Dante's Inferno and he's in the eighth circle of hell, which is for liars, right? And so canonically, Sinon is like known as a liar throughout all of the text, or all of like this time. So I was fascinated to see today that he showed up, but because like Virgil, like they didn't like the Greeks, so like none of his Greek portrayals are like super kind. And he's actually a deserter in Virgil. And so it was interesting to see Christopher Nolan turn that narrative on its head, first of all, right? Because Sinon is tricked into going to the war through the lots, which again, that lottery doesn't exist in in the Odyssey. It does exist in the Iliad. And ironically, I think I think the Odyssey, Christopher Nolan's Odyssey has like themes of the Iliad. That's a whole nerdy thing that we won't go into. Um okay, so he turns this on his head and then he puts in a trans character or a trans actor into this role. So, like, of course, I'm like super nerdy about it. And my like my thought is like, how often do we depict oppressed groups as liars, as deceivers, as deserters, right? Deserters of the status quo, deserters of like in this case, maybe the gender binary, you know, and and then trick them and leave them on the beach to defend who we are. And then uh and then at the end, when he gives Antonus back his shame, like society has placed shame onto Sinon, and this doesn't have to be a trans allegory, it doesn't have to be that. It's just like a lens through which we can read Sinon as a character. Like, who are we leaving on the beach? And then at the end, like giving back Antinus his shame was like such a beautiful moment for me because I was just like, how we the way that we use shame in Western can't in Western culture is huge, right? Like we shame people. Are you really gonna eat that? Are you really gonna wear that? Oh, you listen to bad music, oh, you are not reading the right books, like whatever it is, right? It's like this sort of like, and so I thought that that was honestly the moment where I was like, yes, Trismer Dolan, give him back his shame. Don't give, don't, don't give your shame to me. Don't give your shame to Elliot Page. And you can take your shame and you can just keep it for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Yeah. Yeah. Elliot, I mean, Elliot Page was amazing in this movie.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah, for all like five minutes that he was on.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

For all five minutes that he was in it, but he you watch out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

I agree. Very, very impactful character. And again, I don't have the knowledge to say, to know that he wasn't in the original story, but I think it's a wonderful addition to this story.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Because he's haunting him like the whole time, right? Like then when Odysseus comes back and he gets his slave asks his name, he gives Sinon as his name.

unknown 31:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

So it's like this whole, it's it's a representation of not only Antonus' shame, but Odysseus's as well. And like an example of his failed leadership for bringing Sinon in the first place to leaving him on the beach with no knowledge. Because Sinon's like, yo, if you had told me, I still would have done it. But the fact that you left me to die in a trick, like, screw you, you know?

SPEAKER_03 32:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

So I thought he was an interesting character.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Yeah, and I think, you know, moves a lot of that stuff, moves a lot of the other parts of the plot. I mean, it's interesting in terms of everything that we've discussed in here, moves along that theme of responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

Through, especially through the scene where he communicates with Cinnan in the underworld. And, you know, I think it's a nice addition to the Antonus plot as well. Um, all right, I think that's a good stopping point.

unknown 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Any last thoughts you want to give?

SPEAKER_00 32:49

No, uh I'm not really. I just like, you know, I think that one of the exciting things is just like seeing people talk about it, hearing that your like 12-year-old daughter is like really excited. I mean, the humanity piece of it that Christopher Nolan really brings to, and like the fact that we're still talking about Homer, like however many thousands of years later, like, I just think that that's an incredible testament to humanity. So it's been so fun to talk to people about this and just be like able to kind of, I don't know, give people, give people some fun with it. Um, so thank you for nerding out with me today.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, I I think you know, storytelling is so, so important. I know I emphasize it a lot in the work that I've done.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

If we had another hour, that's where I would go.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

We'll save that for another podcast. Hopefully, we'll be doing some more of these in the future, covering topics, I think, that are bubbling in the popular culture and trying to.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

I mean, Ted Lasso's coming out. I feel like it's just asking for another one.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

I would feel bad leaving Matt Hearst out of that conversation if people listen back to my Matt Hearst podcast. So we might we might have to go three person on next Ted Lasso season comes.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

There's no such thing as too many nerds in a in a room, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

Everybody who's listening, tell us what you thought about this. Again, uh, if you want to contact me, if you want to reach out to me for coaching, Christycoach.com. Christy underscore coach, you can email me, crdesantis at gmail.com. Juliet, tell people about what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

I do. Well, I'm starting my own business that's sort of like Chris's, in the sense that uh there's gonna be different layers of being able to coach. So definitely more news to come. So follow along at Jay and Joyroot on Instagram, and uh I look forward to sharing with you all what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

Amazing. And thank you guys so much for listening, and we'll be back with you again in a week.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Yay!