Podcast: Interview with Rhonda and James – Toronto Urban Growers

Toronto Urban Growers is a diverse and inclusive network of individuals and organizations committed to scaling up urban agriculture in the city.  They serve a network that cultivates relationships, and help new leaders emerge, while developing strategies to expand food production within the city.

Part of their vision is the belief that young people, newcomers and new entrepreneurs should have more economic opportunities in the agri-food system. Many of their projects have embodied this vision.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Formally kick it off and and uh you know welcome to uh our our listeners or viewers. Um really excited uh to have uh Rhonda Tidalpain and James Kunz as uh our podcast guests for today. Um Rhonda and James are quite a dynamic duo, having a significant amount of impact in and around the Greater Toronto area and beyond, um, contributing towards agriculture, urban agriculture through both academia and community-based uh say organizations. Probably well, the the largest community-centric uh organization called the Toronto Urban Growers Community that was uh founded by them um I don't even know, probably over 10 years ago. So welcome and uh thank you for for both of uh both of you for again carving out some of your time uh and your business schedules to uh to chat with me today.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Thanks for having us, Brandon.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

And so maybe what we'll do is we'll go uh one by one. If uh we'll start with with Rhonda. And Rhonda, maybe you can just share a little bit um generally about yourself and what it is that you're currently doing, and then we'll we'll begin to go backwards and uh in the story to share a bit of the journey of how you ended up where you are today.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

So I I'm trying to uh keep my toes in as many little ponds as as uh possible because I I find that's that's what works best for for me. So um I still it's really important to me to stay connected to the urban agriculture community. So co-coordinating uh Toronto Urban Growers is a way to work with all different kinds of growers, um, from backyard gardeners to to commercial farmers and community gardeners. Uh but then I'm also uh doing some teaching as well, which allows me to reflect a lot, allows me to pull on some of the thinking that's going on um around the world about how to uh build more sustainable food systems, how to support local growers, um, how to heal our planet um in the best way, given the the economic and political context that we have. So um it's it's a good range. And then and then I'm lucky enough to have some space to grow food in in my own yard. Keep my hands in the dirt.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Amazing. Keep you keep you grounded, as they would say, right? That's awesome. Yes, and then James, how about uh how about yourself if you want to give a little intro?

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Yeah, I am one of the co-coordinators of Toronto Urban Growers, uh, which has just been a wonderful experience, just meeting so many people who are connected to urban agriculture in many different ways. Um, recently we've been doing some policy work for Toronto Community Housing Corporation uh with their community gardens. And that's been a really wonderful experience talking to tenants and getting to know their thoughts on urban agriculture and what they really want to see happen. Uh, otherwise, uh, I do teaching as well, like Rhonda. Uh, I teach uh food security and urban agriculture course at Toronto Metropolitan University. And uh over the last half year uh with Rhonda, uh we've taught the uh Tug Urban Farming Training Course for uh STEM Lines, which has exposed us to just some brilliant up-and-coming entrepreneurs who want urban agriculture to be the focus of their businesses.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Amazing, right? And and I know um a little bit, you know, we'll say more to the backstory, but if we want to take it back uh maybe a few years, um the the two of you, as well as uh Joe, as well as a few other, we'll say local leaders, um, were a part early days in um the Toronto Food Policy Council. And maybe you can share a little bit, just in the context of uh, you know, urban agriculture was something that I'll say, you know, about 10 years ago wasn't really even recognized in the way that it is today. Um it seems like it's become much more of a local movement, community-driven, grassroots-driven, supported by, you know, uh academics and the ability to teach, train, and showcase people all the different ways that urban agriculture can be present in our communities. Um but maybe you guys can share a little bit about how uh it's sort of evolved, you know, growing growing in tight spaces, right? Growing in urban environments. And and and maybe you can share again a little bit of the the early days stories of how uh Toronto Urban Grower Community was formed and how it was sort of you know organized at a grassroots level, um, to maybe a little bit about where you sort of have seen it come uh today.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Well, it's uh it's kind of interesting that you say over the past 10 years there's been um a bit more recognition, uh, because in a way, um, there have been waves of recognition. Uh when we uh formed Tug in 2009, there had already been some um interesting policies that had come out. And then around that time, like between 2009-2012, uh there were lots of great policies. Toronto was actually something of a leader um in urban agriculture policy. So we were early adopters of uh uh community garden policy for the Toronto Parks and Rec. Uh, there was the uh Grow TO plan, which uh James worked on. He can tell you a bit more about that. There was also the Toronto Agriculture Program, which was um uh multidivisional uh table uh for the city of Toronto to focus on advancing urban agriculture. So now the Toronto Agriculture Program is not happening so much. The GroTo plan is uh 12 years old and not very active at the moment, but urban agriculture is coming out in other ways. And and I think what is happening is that the, well, two things. One is is that the community, the the growers are leaping far ahead. They're they're the ones who are experimenting with new models, um, doing all different kinds of farming and growing. So, in a way, they are the ones who are the leaders right now. Um, but I also have to to give some props to the city because uh the um circular economy uh roadmap has now included urban agriculture and and food is one of the three pillars in in that circular road uh circular economy roadmap. So uh it's starting to come back again. Municipalities around the city of Toronto, like um York Region is doing great work, Mississauga now has an urban agriculture strategy. So there there are some exciting pieces bubbling up through municipal staff as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Amazing. And then maybe James, can you share a little bit about this this Grow TO plan? Uh as Rhonda mentioned, this is you know over a decade ago. Um, how how did you sort of work towards forming it? And and obviously, just quick context is you know, there's obviously was, is, or maybe, um, great dialogue between the community and the city staff realizing that this something something should be prioritized, and then got um, assuming yourself and maybe a couple of others involved to formalize uh a bit of a strategy.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah, um, myself and a few other uh people that were deeply involved in urban agriculture uh wanted to raise the profile of urban agriculture in Toronto. So we created the uh GROW TO program. Um we had a speaker series. Uh we brought in various speakers from across North America and had public events in Toronto, and we had some funding, I believe, from the city of Toronto to do that. And uh it resulted in the Grow TO uh GroTO, an Urban Agri, an Urban Agriculture Action Plan for Toronto, which was passed uh unanimously by the city council in 2012. And uh the plan identified some priority areas such as linking growers to land, increasing the visibility and promotion of urban agriculture, uh cultivating relationships, and developing supportive policies for urban agriculture. And uh that came with uh a list of action items uh what for what could be done to scale up urban agriculture in Toronto. And some of the uh action items were acted on by the city, many were acted upon by the um community, and others uh sadly just fell by the wayside. But um I think it was a successful initiative in that it truly did raise uh the profile of urban agriculture in Toronto.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

And then it wasn't just informed from your own local experience. Um from what I recall, uh both of you have had opportunities to travel to different cities around the world and participate in different types of um, let's say, events, um, relationship building, networking, uh, to understand what other cities around the world are doing as it relates to urban ag. Um can you share a little bit about some of the places that maybe have drawn inspiration um to where we we might hope the city will continue to invest and move towards?

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Well, I will uh perhaps leave uh Paris and Nerima to James to talk about. Um I wanted to mention that um I was able to go to uh Belo Horizonte in in Brazil, where they have had uh on all levels, the state level, the uh federal level, and the municipal level, they've had some very progressive uh food policies come and go, as well as with some very serious challenges. Um I was able to go to an urban agriculture conference there, share a little bit of what we're doing in Toronto, um, but just be completely blown away by um the strength of the community organizing there. Um, and just to be inspired by when when people really come together and put the time and effort into planning and and having honest conversations about what's needed. Um that that's what I took away from that. And and those people are continuing to to work um despite political and and economic challenges.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

So uh James, you want to talk about uh Paris, Narima?

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yeah, I'll I'll do it uh the from chronologically. So in 2019, uh Rhonda and I uh represented Toronto at the urban agriculture summit in uh Narima City, uh Japan, which is a part of the city of Tokyo. And they were also urban agriculture leaders from New York, London, Jakarta, and Seoul at this conference. And it was uh just an amazing to learn from these cities, but it was even more instructive just to see urban agriculture in Narima. We were in a very densely populated uh urban area. We were able to visit farms that had been in the same generation for 14 years, 14 generations. And it's um real it was really heartening to see just how the city of Narima are so proud of urban agriculture and the steps that they were taking uh to support it, to keep it uh a very important part of their culture. Uh in 2024, Aronda and I were lucky enough to get a study trip to Paris, and we were just able to meet some really wonderful leaders of the urban ag scene in Paris and visit many, many fascinating projects that have had a real impact on our thinking, uh such as an underground mushroom farm and some just amazingly productive and beautiful rooftop gardens as well. Um and also it was I think that one of the biggest earnings from that is just how the citizens of Paris support urban agriculture and how involved they are. And I think that uh might just be lacking a little bit in Toronto.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

And then in touching.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

And if I could add a couple of more things about that. Um, so in Narima, one of the things that that I've taken away from that was um how the not just the the city supported urban agriculture, but the federal government supported urban agriculture across Japan by um recognizing them as community hubs specifically for emergency preparedness. So the the federal government paid farms to once a year have trainings for for local residents for how to deal with emergency situations. The farms became places that people recognized as a place to go to for information and it benefited the farmers not just financially, but it helped them to develop a relationship with their community and their their customer base, which I thought was a brilliant recognition. Um that that came from a very long history of growing in the city. And the the mushroom farm that uh that James was talking about in Paris, that was striking to me because it was in an underground parking lot in a social housing building. So the the social housing provider realized that this this parking lot was not being used as much as it used to be because of policy changes to discourage driving. And so, what do he used the space for instead? So they opened up the mushroom farm, which um was also um a place for other green businesses to establish because they they the the guy who ran the mushroom farm, the Cavern, he said, we're not gonna make enough money just growing mushrooms here. So they had this network of other businesses from microgreens to bike couriers um to aquaponic systems, all in this this underground parking lot. So that that's what I took away from from Paris.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Wow, that sounds that sounds amazing. I know there was another project similar, I think, just outside Chicago, that was looking at again an old industrial building and sort of creating this incubator of sorts, right? Of micro, micro businesses all working to, you know, all working at the same goal. I think the problem, the challenge in urban agriculture when compared to like our our conventional system is just surely the size of an operation, the volume of product, you know, and then the the unique differentiator um, you know, among smallholder farmers, urban ag you know farmers, um, is what kind of unique products can they have. And most importantly, I think that that relationship to their customers, that direct personal relationship. So it's not just going to a grocery store and seeing a price tag, it's seeing a human and the care that goes behind that that food that they're bringing to the farmer's market or wherever it might be. Now, just on the because we're you know just sort of talking high level about you know urban ag as we you know we're experiencing in the city of Toronto as well as you guys have experienced in other cities around the world. Um not to pose like a giant question, but trying to keep it maybe a little tighter, um but as it relates to policy, because you uh I mentioned policy a few times and policy being a a driverslash an enabler, right, for new uh for entrepreneurship, for new ways of thinking. Um what what kind of role do you see policy playing um maybe locally and then even globally in in little microcosms or metropolitans? Um what kind of role what role do you see policy as being like critical to the growth in urban agriculture? Or do you think it's just something that sort of uh I'll say puts that vote of support from a government to those that are operating within the realm of urban agriculture? Do you think that that's like a critical piece, or do you think urban agriculture is just going to happen as it is over time if policy is or isn't um, you know, shifted in support?

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Well, I think the answer to that is urban agriculture will happen without positive support. It will happen even in places where there are policy barriers. Um, but for me, what it comes down to is the question of who gets to do urban agriculture. So if you have the resources to go through lengthy processes and do all kinds of uh uh testing and pay all kinds of fees and so on, then you'll be able to do urban agriculture. But what I worry about is that there are many people who don't have those resources who have fabulous growing skills and have good food to grow. Um so if we don't have enabling policies, those are the people who are going to be closed out. So we want to open the doors to those. And you know, how do you do that? Number one, you remove the barriers. Um, and the best way, I think, to do that is just to have uh recognition in our policy documents that urban agriculture exists. Because when it's not included explicitly, that's uh when you get frontline city staff who will uh not have the guidance to say yes to urban agriculture. Um so we want to see market gardens recognized, we want to see the words urban agriculture in all of our policies. Um and then once we get that, if there are some supportive programs that that help fund and and encourage urban agriculture, well, that would be great too.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Absolutely. I think funding and a little bit of uh cutting the red tape per se can help you know new innovative ideas excel quicker, right? But uh I completely agree with you. Absolutely, absolutely the the accessibility, right? Especially in the mosaic of Toronto, right? There's so many different cultures, people of all sorts of different socioeconomic statuses. Uh a lot of people that I've engaged with in our training workshops are are newcomers who have roots in agriculture. And the challenge is they just can't find the space to do what they love. Yeah. Know how to do really well.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Well, and and you said it, Brandon, you said a vote of support. So if the city is recognizing that urban agriculture is is something valuable, um, that goes far beyond their immediate resources, uh, because there is still a bit of a perception that food isn't grown in cities. There are a lot of um landholders who are maybe hesitant to allow urban agriculture to happen because they're just not sure that it's something that is supported. So if cities uh do come out and say, yes, we do support urban agriculture, the the echoing of that will be uh more private landwolders will also be more open to supporting urban agriculture. So so it it there's there's a a powerful ripple effect that could happen.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

I I'd use the example of like the green roof bylaw in Toronto, right? You know, providing a cash incentive to make a green roof. Well, there's one thing having sedum on a green roof or a white roof versus, you know, maybe a little bit more incentive for agriculture production on our, you know, smaller rooftops, uh, or at least lower height rooftops, I'll say. Kind of like is done at uh Toronto Metropolitan University with the amazing now two rooftop uh farms uh that they've got and demonstrating both the economic and the social impact and how it has by been you know embodied in the fabric of the school, um, both literally through the fashion program and figuratively through the commitment, I think, from the building staff facilities, deans, and um and the president. Um so I can only hope that uh more happens. But yeah, go ahead, James.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Yeah, yeah, just getting back to the city and its support of urban agriculture. Uh in 2024, City Council declared uh food insecurity as an emergency. So the city needs to act on that. And if they could do anything that could enable urban agriculture to be more practiced and get rid of some of the barriers, that would uh really uh help them achieve what they want to do, which is to uh lessen the amount of um uh food insecurity in Toronto. Urban agriculture obviously isn't the total answer for that, but urban agriculture certainly is part of the answer to it.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Couldn't uh couldn't agree more. I just remember um again when we we met the and this is probably eight, ten years ago, uh there's a case study about utilizing the space underneath the hydro corridors and the amount of red tape that went on to try to say, well, hey, there Green space here. There's a community that wants to grow. They need space. And uh eventually it happened. And it's become, I think, an amazing case study for what could be done. Um but again, I think those and and anything, whether or not it's in business entrepreneurship or community grassroots movements, getting that first, you know, getting over the first few hurdles, I think, is probably the biggest challenge. And so we hope that uh maybe the the uh proverbial snowball is gaining momentum, uh especially as you're you're talking about, you know, food emergency, right? There's Toronto food emergency, Kingston food emergency. Uh it's happening across the country. And so we'll why have you know better communities feeding to the other.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Exactly. Let's hope that snowball keeps getting bigger and bigger.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Um and then and then maybe on that, just in terms of this the snowball of momentum, we'll say, because uh you guys have been so involved in in the space. Um but from like the academic perspective, you have uh students probably of all ages attending some of your programs and the the courses that you're teaching. You also have um, so I'll say that's like standard, we'll call it our standard institutions. Then you'd mentioned the Toronto uh Urban Microfarmer Program, which is I think institution supported, but a bit more industry driven. And then there's sort of the broader sector of like the Toronto urban grower community and that natural organic communication that happens through the listserv. Now, are you seeing maybe we'll start with uh the sort of we'll call it the formal academic streams? Uh are you seeing um an uptake? Uh and maybe like what kind of what kind of interest are the people in like who are participating and paying for these programs? What's their interest? Is it more like general awareness or these people who are trying to develop a better understanding to then potentially launch a business or participate in their community?

SPEAKER_01 23:50

That's uh such a relevant question. We're we're just uh trying to uh to figure that out now because um, of course, colleges and universities in in Ontario are, well, and actually all across Canada and in the US as well, are are um facing um significant challenges, both in terms of of um financial constraints because students are are there's less funding, students are are uh finding it harder to afford um school. Um, but also the the challenges that come with um like you teaching in an age of AI and and and how artificial intelligence and how do we um provide students with opportunities to learn what it is that they really want to learn, what they really need to learn in order to move into the urban agriculture world. And what's exciting about it is to me, urban agriculture is so flexible, so wide-ranging across so many disciplines that um there's there's just so many, there's so much to so many tools to work with, there's there's a lot of material to work with. So when we're putting together a program and and you know, depending on the institution that you're in, obviously it's it's going to reflect the institution's focus. So when we're talking about an urban agriculture course for TMU, we're going to be looking at a different perspective than when I'm putting together an urban agriculture course for the the chef school at George Brown. But um it's it's kind of brilliant how um you can you can start from urban agriculture and and create programs for both of these. So what are students are uh looking for? Um I I think a lot of students, particularly more mature students, um want to create their own work. They've they've uh spent some time working for other people, working in other industries. There are a lot of people who are coming out of like the financial world or or the tech world and want to do something different. They want to do something that reflects their values, um, which of course is like totally what urban agriculture is about. Um so try and that can be challenging, you know. It's it's it's hard to find work that that uh meets your your social and your your your value, your social needs, your values. Um but urban agriculture is a really good place to do that. So we we try and help them make that match between um what their values are, um what the community has to offer, which they may not be familiar with. Um and community is a huge part of doing work in growing food in the city. So so there's there's that. Uh but the other uh piece that we're kind of figuring out is how urban ag creates opportunities to work um in a multidisciplinary environment. So when you're when you're working with urban planners, you're working with international development folks, you're working with nurses, you're working with chefs, um, you're working with the food industry, there are uh so many different people who you will connect to. And each one has its own focus, its own language. And so how how do you work across that that varied knowledge base and how do you make those connections is is a really fun, fun thing to teach.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

I'd say I I bet, right? Coming from different backgrounds and different perspectives, right? On on the corporate or technically skilled side, but then you know, there's the whole cultural aspect, right? Again, of how people interact with food, how they think about food businesses, how they save seeds and swap seeds, or they grow food and try to sell it. You know, there's all sorts of different things I've I've witnessed, um, which sort of treat, you know, speaks, I think, to the amazing mosaic that uh that really is the urban agriculture scene as experience in in Toronto, the GTA as well as uh, you know, other places around the world. Um now, James, are you seeing any other kinds of trends now? And maybe just quickly we'll sort of hybridize between, you know, talking about your experience in in the institution life, um, but also then the people that are joining this urban farmer training program, which is sort of like a crash course in hey, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be in person. There's a hybrid opportunity or online, um, so people from across the province can join. Um, and again, maybe you can just share a little bit about what you've you're observing both in the in the physical classroom and in the virtual classroom.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Yeah, uh the virtual classroom uh is where I've done most of my teaching when it comes to urban agriculture. And um I'll talk specifically about the type urban farm urban farming training, which we did uh the fall of 2025 and uh just concluded uh this winter. Just an absolutely fabulous asynchronous online classes. The students are from many different parts of the world. Some are recently arrived, like maybe within the last couple of years. Uh the students uh share one thing in common. They're all deeply intelligent, and they're really, really motivated uh to make a good go of it here in Canada through working in agriculture and agribusinesses. Um I think the training was very um practical, which I think is what students want. I think that there is a bit of a movement away from the more the uh academic training or the study of urban agriculture. Uh that's still important, but I I think in this day and age with a very, very unstable economy, uh, I think a job programs that speak to job creation are going to be key. And that's why the TUG Urban Farming Training Program was just um so rewarding to teach. Um just meeting some amazing students and uh and making relationships that will last for quite a while, I hope.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

And now and now for students that come through that specific program after they you know graduate, participate in the modules, um are you seeing like as you say, you know, a lot of people trying to make a go of it? Are these people again looking to start businesses, or have you also witnessed like uh friendships and allies sort of forming uh within the series of classes to where maybe two people who didn't think they would uh potentially get into business together are finding alignment? Or what are you what are you kind of seeing, or are these people who are also looking for just like what are careers in agriculture? How can I use my skills uh in a job? Um so are you seeing maybe more trends towards entrepreneurship or or career opportunities or or just general awareness?

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Well, yeah, I will rhonda.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

No, no, no, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Yeah, no, and the class itself is really just a wonderful place for students to interact with other students and network. And there are examples of students who are now working together in their businesses. It's mutually beneficial for them to uh work together at times. So that is just a really um wonderful outcome to see. Uh, we all don't have to be lone wolves uh in doing this. We can certainly work together and uh and make something. Rhonda, anything to add?

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Uh yeah, because um when you talk about trends, uh Brandon, I think one of the most exciting and surprising trends for me is just learning all the different ways that people are into collaborating. So you can have two people who go into business together as kind of a conventional model, but there are so many other different ways that people are exploring this. So they may collaborate on a specific aspect of their work. So, like farmers who who pool pool their produce and and one of them takes the produce to market because marketing is a huge uh time commitment. So if they share that labor, um there are not so many formal collectives or cooperatives um in in Toronto, per se, that I know of, um, but that's uh starting to change a little. Like, for example, the the many hands farm out of uh Downstreet Park. These are our uh five farms that uh shared space at uh federal lands at Downstreet Park. And they first started uh collaborating on on buying joint insurance and then realized uh that uh there were uh many reasons to to work together on a number of fronts. And and so they they formed a nonprofit collective um and are now collaborating on in many ways. So there's so many different kinds of collaboration, but everyone is recognizing that that that is what is helping the businesses to thrive and survive is is the relationships that you that you build with people, the the folks who are going to help carry you through both good times and not so good times.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

And then help fix your tracks.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

I'll just take that one step further. These farmers all have amazing uh wealth of knowledge and in certain areas. And by sharing the knowledge, I think that is what's really going to make urban agriculture grow.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Yeah, I agree with that totally. And I was going to say that that perhaps one direction for pedagogy in the future is to make it easier for people to do that that kind of collaboration, because I don't think we have a strong culture of collaboration here in Canada. Um there are um other parts of the world where there is more of that that that culture of collaboration. So so how do we, when we're doing academic programs or or training programs, how do how do we support that, both in terms of teaching it, but also facilitating it, allowing it to happen.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Yeah. And I I think just you hit the nail on the head in this sort of, you know, the the competitive landscape where people are like, oh, I have specific knowledge or I've got a special seed and I need to capture the market and make my money. And it becomes, you know, too competitive instead of like co-opetition, right? Where there's enough space in the sandbox for everybody to play. Right. But if somebody's, you know, stealing all the resources and all the all the shovels or whatever, then you've got you know, you've got a problem. And I think that that also goes back to the true nature, I think, of urban agriculture is this direct connection to your farmer or farmers. And that I think you know stands a test of time that you're not just a brand, right, on a shelf. You're a person with a product, with a story. Um, you know, who are who are out there, right? The farmers that are at our our markets are really amazing people. And some of them are driving, you know, an hour and a half, two hours just to come down to a market for 6 a.m. on a Saturday, right? To to figuratively put gas in their car and a roof over their head as well, right? So um very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Well, I think I I think a lot of that attention between the the relationship between the farmer and the customer, um, that that gets um a lot of airtime because that's kind of like everyone wants to to feel their farmer, they want to touch the farmer, they want to have that direct relationship. Um I I would like to to see more conversation about the relationships between the farmers because uh as you said, the cooperation, um, my background is in in social work. So when I started working with for-profit farmers, I thought, oh wow, this is a whole world I don't know anything about. But they were all talking the language of building community and and and supporting each other and wanting to share knowledge and and not being proprietary about a lot of things. And that surprised me in a really good way. It was really nice to see that.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Absolutely. Now, just on that aspect, this sort of theme that we're we're just chatting about here, which is community. I want um uh to give you an opportunity to sort of plug um the Toronto Urban Grower Community Group. Because when we're talking about sharing things, I get um condensed email notifications, I think almost every day. There are people who are sharing on this like Google Listserv, which is just like our community dialogue, I'll call it. Um, and everything from, hey, I've got an extra composter, or hey, I'm looking for steaks, or hey, you know, maybe I've got some special seeds, or hey, I'm having a problem. Can somebody help me, you know, fix this or identify that? Um, it really is like a catch-all uh community platform that you guys have have catalyzed. Um maybe you can share just a little bit about how this sort of online community that you've created is working. Um it's moderated, it's no cost to people to join. Again, maybe just you know give a little plug for anybody again who's looking for resources uh who might be listening in and being like, oh, well, how could I get involved? Um and maybe you can just share a little bit about Tug or any other places where people can get some more information about um what's what's the buzz uh in urban agriculture in Toronto.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Yeah, so um the there is the the Tug Google group. I should quickly mention that there's also a Facebook group called Grow Food Toronto, um which Tug is a partner in operating. Um so if people are on Facebook, that's a that's another space. Uh but the the Google group, um as you said, you know, it's free to join and um uh it's mildly moderated. So um we try to to keep the spam out. But uh basically it's it it is a place for people to to post their questions, um, but it's also supported by us as co-coordinators. So um when we get information about funding, about events, we'll we'll put it out. If our community doesn't answer a question, we're there to to fill in the gaps as well. So it's it's not um just uh like a strictly volunteer thing. Well, it it's it's supported by by the coordinators. So uh uh yeah, people do post all kinds of questions. I'm just continually awed by how um warm and welcoming and supportive the community is of these kinds of questions. And it really helps us understand where uh like what people are struggling with, where where they're having great successes, keeps us in in touch with what's happening, who's coming and going. Um and uh so it's it it's it's a great venue for for that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

And and um sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

I I was gonna say it's also kind of interesting because sometimes people have this perception that Tug is all about community gardeners because they're uh a farmer. And so they think all the messages are related to community gardens, and then community gardeners say, oh, Tug is all about urban farms because it's all about farmers. Uh but we're we're trying to provide information for for both groups of people, and um sometimes the interests overlap and sometimes they they are divergent, and people just have to be patient with that, which you know, in a day where we have so much social media that is like intensely targeted to us, sometimes it's good to know what other people are are working on, um, even if it's not necessarily directly related to what you're doing. So I think that's a plus. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

And and it goes right back to our name, Toronto Urban Growers. Uh, that name came about because we wanted to be inclusive of all types of growing. And uh that name was chosen by the community uh at a meeting way back in 2009. It's it wasn't our idea, it was the community's idea to call it Toronto Urban Growers. And I think that says a lot about um urban agriculture in Toronto and how people feel about it and uh support it and believe in it.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Absolutely, right? A true, it's a true grassroots movement. It's communities feeding communities, supporting communities, supporting each other. Um now, another another quick plug is just in in supporting your local community, um, for whoever is uh is listening or watching, um we are around the corner. If, well, we've already had a few already, CD, CD Saturdays. Um, but maybe just quickly you can share like what are what are some of the things people might be able to uh look forward to attending as we sort of get closer to this May 24th planting season? Um you know, are there any particular events or where might people find more information? Is it on the the Tug website or are there there places that people can look for uh maybe urban ag related events in their own communities?

SPEAKER_01 41:29

So um Facebook is where we post most of the events coming up uh because it's just the easiest to share. For CD Saturdays, the best resource now is um Seeds of Diversity Canada, because they gather information about CD Saturdays all all across the country, which is is pretty exciting to see that that movement happening um nationally. Um but uh yeah, getting on the Google group is is uh is one of the other ways that we we share that information. So, yes, there are still CD Saturday events um happening until I think until mid-April. They carry on until that that time. And um they are fabulous um occasions to uh come out from winter hibernation, meet up with other growers again, do some workshops, see some demonstrations, pick up some varieties of seeds that you may uh may not knex existed.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Or even or even swap seeds, from what I hear, right? In terms of getting outside of the economic.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yeah, so all those packages of seeds that have been sitting and you and you haven't uh planted them, you can swap them for something that you actually will plant.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

That's amazing, right? And I think at those events, there's also a really unique opportunity to get um some varieties, as you mentioned, that you may never see. You may never see in a seed catalog. It could be uh uh a family or you know a particular cultural crop that's been preserved in a family that somebody's like, yeah, I'm willing to share this into the community because it tastes so good. Whatever that happens, absolutely it does, yes. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Well, and the stories get collected as well, which is is kind of fun. You don't you don't just get a seed, you you find out who planted it and why and when.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Yep. Well, it's like um I was at uh at the TMU rooftop um meeting with um one of their farmers, and she gave me okra. And it was a special kind of okra that had been like preserved multi-generational, and she's like, You better save this and you better plant it. And after you plant it, bring me bring me back a pod next year. And and that's that's pay it forward, right? Um which I think is just so amazing in terms of the the overall community. Um now being conscious of our time generally, and and I know uh just because you touched on it, Rhonda, briefly, that you had a background in social work. And so in this sort of last Segment we'll say of the podcast. I always love to hear a little bit about, you know, our guests like personal journeys. You know, did you ever think that you would be a lead coordinator of a of a thousand multi-thousand people, you know, growing community? Did you think you'd be a professor teaching urban agriculture at an institution in downtown Toronto? Um, my guess would be not. So maybe each of you, because you have uh you have individual journeys, but you also have a collective journey at a certain point. Um, maybe you can just share a little bit about sort of how how you got to where you are and what um I don't know, what bug, what urban agriculture bug you caught at what point in your life um to get so involved as you have been.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Well, I I love your your question. Uh as a child, did you think you would do this? As a child, I thought I was going to be either a a jockey or a veterinarian, um, which I became neither. Um and I went a convoluted route into uh into social work and um discovered that that one-on-one counseling of that kind was not what I wanted to do. I was interested in in building communities. And so fortunately there was uh um a specialty in in community development. Um and when I graduated and um wasn't quite sure where I wanted to take that, uh, I applied for a job at the Stop Community Food Center. And I thought, um, well, they're not gonna hire me because I don't really know anything about running community gardens or growing food or even very much about kitchens, but uh they did because I had this community development background, and that's um as an anti-poverty organization, they wanted to bring in someone who was going to do some political and economic literacy work and and and tapping into people's skills. And what ended up happening was maybe I supported skills development a little bit, but the volunteers, the gardeners, they taught me um about the joys of growing food and community. And that's what's carried me forward since. Um and when it came time to leave the stop, it was I'm gonna tell this story because I think a lot of people need to know about the changes that happen in the kinds of careers that you think you're gonna be doing. Um, I was quite anxious to leave the stop because I love the job so much and I didn't know what I was gonna do next. But then the leap to working from a neighborhood-based organization to working citywide and suddenly being able to work with a whole bunch of really fabulous people um was was life-changing. It was it was amazing to be able to make that leap. So um like different different skill sets, but but you jump in, uh, you pick it up, you find out what you already have to bring to the table, and and then you stretch and develop new skills. So uh uh, and I would say the same moving into to teaching, you you start with a pool of of of skills and you learn some new ones pretty fast.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

I call it being uh comfortably uncomfortable and challenging yourself. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Well, that's uh that's uh quite a journey, Rhonda. And again, you've you have been um so influential and inspirational to thousands of people through the work that you've you've done and continue to do. So I will uh will say thank you on behalf of all the people who are not here today. Um, because it uh it's hard, rewarding, unsung hero kind of work um that you're doing, and uh it's made again made impact to the lives of thousands of people. Now, James, what's uh what's your deal?

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Um my deal, I've always been fascinated uh by agriculture. When I was 14, I spent a month uh on a potato working on a potato farm in Prince Edward Island uh in my twenties. I went to New Zealand, worked at a sheep station and a walnut plantation. And when I got back to Ottawa, which is where I lived at the time, I realized that, hey, I can do this in the city. So I joined a community garden and uh just got to um meet a lot of like-minded people that were very interested in agriculture and food security, and also very importantly in community building. And uh as life happens, one thing leads to another, one challenge leads to another. And um it's just been a non-stop um evolving career that I've had. And it's a career that you don't get rich in, but you certainly get rich in the people that you meet. You just meet some amazingly wonderful, fascinating people with just uh wonderful, crazy stories. And it's it's just so wonderful to be part of this world.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

And I and I think that's probably what what keeps you going is you know, being whether or not it's even at a farmer's market or at a CD Saturday event or a workshop, there's this kind of energy, you know, you have when you're like leaving or just a part of these events, right? Or the energy is like lost. You're leaving and you're like, wait a second, like there was just this this good vibe and just great people and no judgment. And you know, I think that is is the bug a lot of people catch when it comes to um actually feeling a part of this community and being accepted for your uniqueness or whatever that might be.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Yeah, and the work that I do, it's it's not it's not the money I make. To me, real success is have I made a difference in someone's life life? And if you can say you have, to me, that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

It's funny you mentioned that because it just quickly at the the very beginning of my own journey into the world of agriculture, um, one of my early mentors was a gentleman you both know by the name of Wayne Roberts. And uh I had a chat with Wayne one day. We're walking down by the the beaches, and uh he says, Hey Brandon, so what, you you think you want to get into this agriculture thing? And I was like, Yeah, I'm I'm really interested because at the time I was like, like this guy's this guy's really cool. This is he's making this agriculture thing kind of sound kind of fun. And there's urban agriculture, like I was always outdoorsy environmental. Um, but then he he said, you know, he looked at me and he's just like he's like Brandon, he's like, I gotta ask you a question. He's like, Do you want to do you want to make money or do you want to make a difference? And he's like, because in urban agriculture, you're probably not gonna make a lot of money, but you can make a lot of difference. Um and then that was the challenge. Yeah, the challenge of the entrepreneur in me was like, okay, how can I do both? Because it's not cheap living in Toronto. So we've been figuring that out over over the last 10 years, but I just I just wanted to resonate that little story because uh it's like it goes back to this sort of uh you know, unsung heroes, the people that are really behind uh behind this, this movement, whether or not you want to call it the the slow food movement, the local food movement, just uh sovereignty and security, um you know, while embracing cultural difference uh and accepting accepting people. So I think maybe in the at the highest level, um the work that you guys have done has inspired me since uh since day one. And I'm really uh really happy that we've had the opportunity to uh to chat today and share a little bit about your uh your stories as well as the community, the movement, some of the trends, um this growing theme of urban agriculture. Uh and so I'll I'll leave it with uh with the two of you. If you have anything else that you'd like to uh to share or plug or inspire people, uh now's your chance, and then we'll uh we'll carry on with our uh with our days.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Okay. Um I have nothing to add, but I just want to thank you for giving us this opportunity to talk about Tug and about urban agriculture and about our community.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Well, and and I would like to echo back that um we've been inspired by by you as well, Brandon, because we we've seen you uh and your businesses evolve and and and just the um the energy and positivity that you bring to no matter what the circumstances are, because that's uh that's a a real talent. It's a survival skill, um, and it and it supports other people more than you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

I appreciate that, right? And I think being as as you can be a downer about the world and downer about all sorts of things, but I think the the same thing that we we the three of us collectively do is just show people that positive energy that comes from doing positive things, right? Not always just for for money um and inspiring people to be like, hey, wait a second, like you know, whether or not I even knew what this guy was talking about, um the energy was there. Or hey, I had no idea what the CD Saturday thing, but I showed up and now I feel like I could be part of the community. Um and just in in terms of last um last note here is for those who were interested in joining the Tug community, being part of the Tug community, um can you just share what's the the website? And then I guess there's there's a link there that somebody can click and sign up for the Google.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

Um yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's uh it's pretty simple. Toronto Urban Growers.org.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

Amazing. And then um I think we are still having an event in uh September. Uh is Toronto still recognizing Urban Agriculture Week?

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Uh yes. I was just thinking that you need to mention that. It seems so far away, but it is really just around the corner. Um, yeah, the Toronto Urban Agriculture Week is um, I think coming up on the ninth year, the year after will be the big celebrating 10 years. Uh, but it's it's basically about celebrating Toronto grown food and the people who grow it. Uh it's the chance for for all different kinds of growers to to shine and tell their story and welcome their community into celebrating the harvest.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

Yeah, and if if I'm not uh if I am correct, I think last year there was like 15 or 20 different events all across the city from different groups and places and spaces and tours. Um so I think people, if they're interested, can find information on the on the Tug website um as well as the Facebook group.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Yes. Yeah, we actually had something like 30 to 40 events. So um, and it's all across the city. So whatever part whatever corner of the city you're in, you can find something close.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Yeah, get out there and connect with your local farmers and the people putting food on your plate. Awesome. Well, uh I want to thank you both uh again so much for your time today. This has been a really great conversation.