Podcast: Interview with Colleen about Science of Plants and Soil

Colleen Dempster, President and CEO of Rewild Soils Lab in Uxbridge, works at the intersection of ecology, soil science, and education to support a healthier local food system. Her work focuses on “rewilding” both ecosystems and people: she creates biologically complete compost and converts it into liquid amendments like compost tea and extracts, which restore the full soil food web for farms, gardens, cannabis cultivation, and restoration projects. Colleen emphasizes biodiversity, environmental awareness, and low-carbon, ethical practices, such as sourcing clean feedstock and maintaining a small footprint, while also running workshops and presentations to help people understand why caring for soil and the environment matters. The conversation frames her as deeply engaged in both the scientific and human sides of regenerative soil work.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Colleen, thank you uh so much for your uh your time today. Um excited to have you on our uh our podcast to share a little bit more about the um we'll say not necessarily the places because we're not uh we're not with you, but the people and their passions behind our uh our local food system. Um and so really excited to uh to be able to chat with you a little bit for the next you know, we'll say 35, maybe 40 minutes or so, um, a little bit about uh a little bit about your journey. Um and so Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Thanks for inviting me.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Absolutely. So maybe uh what I'll uh I'll try to do to kick it off is give a brief introduction. And then I would love if you can uh share a little bit more about yourself. Um but for our uh for our listeners, we'll say we've got uh Colleen Dempster is on the line with us, and she is the um president, CEO, chief cook and uh and bottle washer, as they'd call it, sort of does all.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Bucket washer, bucket washer, correct. Compost washer. Um with uh Rewild Soils Lab, uh physically located in Uxbridge, however, providing services across uh the province of Ontario, which is exciting. Um so Colleen, with that, that's my high-level introduction, and maybe you can share a little bit more about um uh ReWild Soils Lab and what it is that you do uh to share with our listeners, because uh just maybe briefly pre-context is um that Colleen is doing some fantastic work around regenerating soils, looking at composting at both household and commercial scales for both small-scale farms, large-scale farms, and is quite uh active in, we'll say, the international community of composters and compost experts who are looking at how can we use sustainable practices uh and science uh to enhance our soils. So maybe with that, Colleen, I don't know if that's a good kickoff, but uh share a little bit more about uh about what it is that uh what it is that you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Well, I do so much, Brandon, that it's kind of hard to synthesize it um succinctly. The way I see it is when you're working in the environmental field in um specifically in ecology, you're working with ecosystems, and our approach needs to be as diverse as the organisms in the ecosystem, and that includes people and microbes and bees and earthworms, and you know, um so for me, the best approach to um what I'm calling like rewilding um is a combination of the actual science part of it, the ecological rewilding, and then the human rewilding as well. So trying to educate people about why we should care about the environment is part of what I do. Uh, it's a big part of what I do is um like conducting workshops and giving presentations. Um, and then there's the ecological rewilding, which is the hands-on part where I make compost. Um, I make different kinds of compost, but I'm aiming to make biologically complete compost to restore microbes in the soil. Um, and then with that, I can actually turn compost into a liquid amendment like compost tea or compost extract, which is easier for farmers to apply. And um, these microbial inoculums can actually be applied not just on farms, but in gardens, in cannabis growing, in restoration projects. And um, yeah, back to that like diversity uh in the compost itself, you've got the whole soil food web. And in the compost tea and extract, you're pulling those out into the liquid. So you're actually restoring the soil biodiversity of the whole soil food web, not just one type of species, and letting nature pick what microbes work best in that specific soil with that specific plant. So, yeah, to answer that question about what I do, it's just it's working with nature and people and planet in the most ethical way that I can, um, keeping the ecological principles of biodiversity and um also like environmental awareness, trying to keep my carbon footprint down, um, sourcing clean feedstock, and just trying to keep everything really connected at the root, uh, pardon the pun, the root of why I'm doing what I'm doing, which is to help the environment.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

That's the again, the work that you've done is amazing. And I've got the a bit of a bit of an insider scoop, but I just remember the, I think the first time uh we had met, you know, um, you were wearing a shirt. I think it was about like composting or soil health or something of that sort. And um was like, hey, so like what is it that you do? And you're like, well, I specialize in making high quality compost tea. And that was one of the times, even for me as you know, a farmer per se, is uh um being like, well, what makes a high quality compost tea? And then as we've you know had discussions and I've learned more uh through you and a couple of others, uh really open the eyes to like, well, composting as much as like, yeah, we put food scraps and they turn into nutrients. It's like, well, that's not just it, right? You're creating a new home, you're creating basically a new ecosystem, um, I guess through decomposition slash uh recomposition, um, which I think is amazing. And maybe just uh on that to to ask a question, Percy, I guess, to you is um along your own journey, uh how did that sort of become more important and relevant to you? Uh and maybe even before that, just for some of the listeners to help build a context. Well, um obviously you've gone to school for a number of different things, uh, but it's not as if you came out of high school and you're like, well, I'm gonna be a compost specialist. Uh so maybe you can share just a a little bit about the journey of how uh you got to where you are, and then maybe we'll just dive briefly into the science of like, well, how did you learn more about the process of composting and what we really need to have a healthy soil? Uh and obviously it's a continuing to learn every single day. I know you go to conferences in different parts of the world and connect with a whole bunch of different people. So it's an ongoing science. Um, but again, maybe you can just start if if we've got some um, you know, some of our listeners here who are younger people or people who are looking at like, well, how do I get involved in in this world of, you know, you know, broadly a circular economy?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Yeah. So my journey was probably um very much in line with a lot of your listeners, where I enjoyed the outdoors. And again, when we first met, I remember talking about that. That um, you know, you were in Boy Scouts, I was in Girl Scouts. I also have a cottage near the Coarthas, and I grew up um in the Dawn River, basically. Um, the Don River uh bike trails. Um, I grew up in Riverdale. So I, like many young people, I just love being outdoors. I love animals, I love plants, and I always thought that I was going to work with something really cool like megafauna or big trees, and I actually did in my career. Um, but I never thought it would lead to microscopic soil microbes. So, how that happened was I I went to school for biology and then I took a postgrad um college certificate in ecosystem restoration, and that's where I really found my people and my place because biology, chemistry, all that was very theoretical at university. But when you get to college, it's like now we can apply it. Now you can get a certificate that proves that you can do this, and now you can actually get a job. Um, but uh I actually decided to go back to school and do a master's at Trent in aquatic ecology because I saw all these algae blooms coming in at the cottage. And over the years it got worse and it was upsetting. So I thought maybe I can make my environmental impact with water quality. And I learned, of course, that there are synthetic fertilizers washing into the lakes from you know different land uses and nitrogen and phosphorus uh in particular are causing these algae blooms. Um, out of my master's, I actually had a hard to hard time getting a job at like a conservation authority or anything because they were often hiring just summer students for the cool jobs that I wanted. And um I just at that point in time was about 2013, I actually came up with the idea of rewild uh my business. And I didn't even know it was going to be about soil microbes. I thought it was gonna be about native plants and having a native plant garden to rewild environments. And uh I moved to Uxbridge, Ontario with my husband and my dog. Um, we bought this 10-acre property and on the upright on the Oak Ridges Moraine, and the Oak Ridges Moraine is all glacial till, so it's all sand. So when I started my garden, I couldn't grow anything. My native plants just withered up and died. And I realized the sand can't hold on to water and it can't hold on to nutrients very well either. And I didn't want to use synthetic fertilizers because I knew what that did to the lakes and that they're bound to salts, which is also bad for the soil and bad for the environment. So I started to research um how to compost, how to make my own soil. And I came across Dr. Elaine Ingham's Soil Food Web School online. It said you can make your own career out of this. And I thought, oh, this is perfect. I can work from home. I just have to buy a microscope and make compost in my yard. And that's basically what I've been doing since 2016. Um, Rewild, the name itself has evolved now to Rewild Soils. And then I have a sort of sister organization called Rewild Soils Lab. And that's where I use the microscope to diagnose soil health or compost health. Um, and I wanted to keep that sort of separate than Rewild Soils, which is my amendment and consulting business, because um I can say with my consulting business that I do make a really good compost and really good compost tea and extract because I check it under the microscope and I use all of Dr. Elaine's principles. And now I'm adding worms to the operation. So mixing in some vermicastings, making some Johnson Seuss, so it's really fungal dominant. And yet I also run this lab where I help other people diagnose the quality of their uh compost or soil and advise them on how to bring up certain microbes that they're missing. And I just uh I wanted to keep it kind of separate so that it's non-biased, so people don't get intimidated by me saying, like, oh, your compost is not good. Look at mine. But it has really taught me a lot that we can all improve compost quality. And I uh I am focusing more on the consulting side of my business to help other people, like right from the beginning, get your soil tested or your compost tested, understand where you're at, understand what you're missing, and how can you prove improve that sustainably so that you can ultimately do that yourself? Um, and year after year, your soil is going to improve so much that you can cut back on the synthetic fertilizers and even on your compost tea and extract applications. And there's just so much soil in Ontario that needs to be restored that there's so much work to be done.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Absolutely, right? And and you're one piece of the bigger puzzle per se, or the mosaic, maybe not necessarily a puzzle. Sometimes it feels like a puzzle, but I think the mosaic of people who are out there looking for different strategies, new strategies, but not necessarily, I guess, what we would call conventional, which is oh, your crop growth is down, put more product on, put more product on. Uh, where your approach is like, well, let's understand what's actually happening, right? Let's understand this ecosystem almost almost like a social scientist, but again, in the world of ecological social sciences of what microbes are here, how are they interacting, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

And also what are the the farmers or the growers' capabilities? Because not everyone can make their own vermi compost, or is it like ready to apply the liquid with a tractor that's dedicated just for organics? Um, so that's why I like consulting to talk to the people and figure out what they're able to do at this point in time.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Amazing. And so maybe like who who are you talking to? Like, are you seeing like I obviously I would assume you're talking to farmers? Are you talking to people who are backyard ventures?

SPEAKER_00 12:51

I'm talking to you, Brandon.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Well, you're talking to me.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

I do um yeah, uh again, it's diversity. Um, my outlets for the work that I do are extremely, extremely diverse. Like I'm talking to the girl guides, you know, helping the young people not be grossed out by worms um and to appreciate the bugs. Um, but yeah, my clients and the people I talk to really range. Um, there's the microscopy part where I collaborate with uh universities and research partners to do some studies. Uh, I'm applying for a really exciting grant with SPUN, which is the Society for the Protection of Underground Networks, to DNA test fungi, probably at John's farm. Um yeah, and then I'm profiling the fungi concentrations in Ontario forests and writing a manuscript about that. So I'm working with a professor at TMU on that. And uh and then there's the farmers and the growers. I I have a lot of cannabis growers interested in improving the biology in their soil so that they can um get the best out of their plants and you know, medicinally, um, marijuana is safer if it's not treated with chemicals. So let's get the best quality for people who are using it medicinally. Um and yeah, um compost producers. So market gardeners or other farmers who are making their own biological amendments want me to test their compost to make sure it is good and make sure that when they put it through their extractor, it's coming out still alive. Um, yeah, so there's microscope testing, there's presentations, workshops. Uh pretty much everyone's kind of realizing that the environment is in need of more support from us, that we are really damaging soils worldwide.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Big time.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

And anyone can do something about that, from like the grassroots level uh individuals to um compost producers, uh waste management facilities, um, and like large-scale agriculture farmers.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Amazing. So you you really deal with the full spectrum, right? And and I love what you're doing from the on the youth perspective, right? Which is not only are you actually making impact, we'll say, on the commercial side of people who have uh are maybe inheriting a family farm or farmers that are saying, Oh, well, I've started to listen more, and this is becoming a bit more mainstream in terms of well, you know, what are the benefits of really giving back to our soil? What is that, you know, um uh net profit loss, or what is that return on their investment from one lens, but then also the next generation of of uh young people and impacting them through a fun and you know, fun and explorative way that they're then like, hey mom, hey dad, think about this, right? And I think it creates that sort of the the narrative where uh youth are also making aware, maybe more mainstream individuals or consumers as we might call them, um, on the one side, which is almost downstream, and then upstream, you're actually working with the farmers, ecologists, and laboratories to not only implement things but also advance it. So you really are like a compost coach of all sorts, yeah, of all sorts in between, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Yeah, like I really want composting to be accessible to everybody. Um, but at the same time, I'm a stickler for quality. So I mean, you have to start with the baby steps, like awareness and having a passion for nature. And uh and then learning how to just do a simple compost in your own backyard, or well, even before that, like use a municipal compost instead of putting your vegetable wastes in a garbage, right? Um, so that's like at the very basic level, and I encourage any level that people can do. But when we're talking about noticeable impacts on plants, growing um acreage without synthetic chemicals and getting more nutrient-dense food, that's where the science really comes in. And I want to make sure that when we're using compost to an extract, we're using it right, or else we're not gonna see the impacts. I mean, compost is one thing. Compost is always good, it's organic matter, and soils um globally are around like like farm soils are often around 2% organic matter, and we need to bring that up to at least 3% to hold water and life and prevent that soil from blowing away. So that's organic matter and compost, and that's really important. If if all you can do is get like a crappy compost, as I call it, from a mu from like your municipal compost or a landscape supplier in bulk, great. Um, but to bring the life back to the soil, you need to use uh biological inoculants as well as a holistic perspective of like, for example, permaculture is a really uh great um like outlining theory of how to bring life back to the soil in this holistic perspective, like no-till, cover cropping, integrating livestock, living roots in the soil year-round, and to boost the the process, to speed up the process, microbe inoculants like compost tea and extract. But and I guess just yeah, it is it's a science. So it's an art and a science.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

It's an art, it's a science, and then obviously comes down to at different scales the economics, right? And I think as you're saying, it's like, well, a farmer that's got a hundred acres, two hundred acres, five hundred acres, a thousand acres is interested in this, but then they're like, well, how am I gonna get enough like manure, compost, whatever it might be, to spread on a thousand acres? And I think that's where the uniqueness, as you're saying, is both compost tea and compost extract are ways that actually can be done, we'll say, with relative ease, but then have a maximum impact. And I know you mentioned earlier just about them not having a dedicated compost sprayer and saying, well, I'm gonna put compost tea into my quote unquote conventional sprayer. Well, it's still better than not doing it. A. I think it's a step in the right direction. Um but then maybe maybe quickly um can you talk about uh because I I selfishly to the viewers, I know that uh Colleen makes amazing compost tea and extract. Can you maybe just talk us through the general basics? Like what is a compost tea? Like are we steeping something or what are the facts like what has to go into it? I'm assuming there's aspects of water. Um what goes into it and then what are we what are we talking about? Uh maybe a ratio of like hard product to liquid product and how long how long that might take, and and you know, obviously what's the not the the all the details, but maybe what's a little bit of the impact of of going to say, well, I composted stuff in my backyard or on my farm, I'm gonna put it into a bag and drop it on water. Yeah. Well, it's not that easy. Um, so maybe again you can speak to a little bit about the process of actually creating compost tea as you sort of experienced.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah. Well, the most important thing when making a tea or extract is the compost. And that's gonna probably be the most labor-intensive and expensive part of it. But the nice thing is when you're making a tea, you're multiplying the microbes so much that you only need a little bit of compost to treat a lot of area. Um, so like take a five-gallon bucket, for example, um, a 75-liter per minute air bubbler, so a little bit stronger than your average fish tank bubbler, because you need to get a good rolling boil, they call it. Um, seeing all the bubbles on the surface of the water as the air is cycling the whole water column, um, because you're gonna need to keep a compost tea aerated or extract. We're working with aerobic microbes. If you start to lose oxygen and they become anaerobic, then you can actually start to breed pathogenic microbes like E. coli. Um, so it could actually go dangerous. So, very important to keep the whole process aerobic from your compost through your liquid amendment and then applying to a non-compacted field. So the difference between a tea and an extract, um, an extract is really simple. Anyone can do it with very little equipment, and it's actually a really good starting point. You get your really high quality compost, and let's say we have a five-gallon bucket. You're gonna fill that up with uh, so five gallons is about 18 liters. So uh so let's say we're filling up to 10 liters, so about three quarters of the way full. Dechlorinated water.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

And that's like a Home Depot pail, right? Five gallons.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I talk in buckets like it's a currency, like I know it very well. Um, your five gallon bucket, your regular Home Depot bucket. So fill that up about three quarters of the way. Um, and you can even let it sit out for like overnight. So the temperature comes to ambient temperature. If you have chlorinated water aerating it will get rid of the chlorine, but not the Chloramine. So for that, you want humic acid powder, or if you have a really good compost, it already has humic acid in it. So you can put some compost directly into that water or in a like a paint strainer bag, switch that around, give it a minute. Now you dissipated the chloramine and it's ready for the microbes. So you've got ambient temperature water. Um, and now you're gonna use a paint strainer bag to hold your compost. I do find that if you can purchase a bag that's 400 microns um mesh size, that's ideal for letting like bigger microbes pass through. But uh to start, you can just use a paint strainer bag, a dollar from Canadian tire. And you for a compost extract, you're gonna use one part compost to 10 parts water. So in um that five-gallon bucket half full, 10 liters of water there, right? So one liter of compost. Good compost. And now you're gonna dunk that in and you're gonna massage it and you're gonna circulate the water through the compost. You're kind of washing the compost, and that's extracting the microbes out of the compost and into the water. And you can do that for about two minutes. Uh, if your compost isn't very good, you can use some more compost and do it again. Um, you know, you can't use too much microbes. You can't hurt the soil by adding more microbes, they'll just die off if there's not enough resources for them. Um, or on the flip side, you're not really gonna have much of an impact if you don't use enough compost. So you want to at least stick to a one in 10 ratio compost to water for a compost extract. And then you can just apply that to your garden bed with a watering can, mix in some extra water to help spread it and help it sink down into the soil. And the application rate for a concentrated compost extract is between 10 and 20 gallons per acre. And I'm sorry I'm switching between metric and imperials because I was trained by the Soil Food Web School and based out of Oregon. Um, but you know, I've got uh about a one thousand like a 10-meter by 10 meter garden bed, and that uh 10 uh liters treats that area.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

So for a tea, for a tea, you don't need as much compost. You only need about a quarter of that. So one cup of compost in that five-gallon bucket, and the application rate is 20 gallons or maybe even 10 gallons per acre. So you spend the money for a really good compost, and you can treat one acre, 10 acres, or 100 acres with very little compost in the end.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Wow. And so essentially, for layman's terms, is we're taking um, you know, raw aggregate compost in a bag, and then we are encouraging that compost to dilute without the large organic sediments that may come up a spray or a watering can or whatever. And the microbes, the microbes are totally okay to like basically live in water as opposed to go for a swim. Okay, go for a swim.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

And so for a short period of time, only for a short period of time. Um, they are semi-aquatic, like they like 50% moisture in compost um to really thrive, but they are also aerobic, they need air um to survive. So if you're making a compost tea, you're bubbling it for about 24 hours, and that's where that aerator is very, very important to keep it aerobic. And then you want to use it within honestly like three hours. Fresh is best. Your microbial diversity is the highest, everyone's got their oxygen and they're alive and well. The longer you wait, the the more they're gonna suck up the oxygen and the community's gonna change, and it could go towards reproducing anaerobic pathogens. So compost tea should be made with the expectation that you're gonna use it the day that it finishes for sure. Uh compost tea. Did I say compost tea? Okay. Compost extract, um, because you didn't add microbial foods and they're not reproducing, you're just pulling whatever's in that compost out, as you said, uh, like extracting it out into the liquid. Um, you're getting a better diversity of fungi, protists, nematodes, and bacteria. So that's going to have a better range of applications in the field from annuals to trees. Compost extract is the most diverse. Um, and it has a slightly longer shelf life because they're not reproducing in solution and they're not sucking up as much ox oxygen. Um, but you still want to use it within the day.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Gotcha. And so both of them, you know, in a nutshell, say if I'm doing tea or extract, relatively is I'm saying, well, I'm gonna start, you know, brewing my tea at 7 a.m. on a Thursday, and I'm gonna be applying it at 7 a.m. to 10 a.m. on a Friday.

unknown 27:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

And that's perfect, yeah.

unknown 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yep, that's the the short and simple way of of doing it. Of course, there are some technical uh things to understand, like ambient temperature. If you're working in the spring and it's cold out, you can actually brew for longer. And if you're working in the middle of the summer and it's 26 degrees, well, there's a couple problems with that. For one, the heat's sucking out oxygen, it's not the water's not holding as much oxygen. So you can only really brew for like 12 to 18 hours. Um, the microbes are more active and they're reproducing quicker. And um, but you also want to keep soil moisture in mind. And we actually generally don't recommend you apply compost heat or extract during a drought or in the heat of the summer, because the microbes are gonna land on that soil and maybe desiccate and die.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Gotcha. So you so you'd actually advise like, is it better to again? I I hate to say it because sometimes I comment on the weather people always being 50% right. Um, but if there were to be a rain, if there would be rainfall speculated again, say it's gonna rain on Friday, this is best for me to do this before a rainfall or after a rainfall? Or is that agnostic in terms of having moisture in the soil before an application?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Um, you hit the nail on the head. That was really smart thinking. I was just gonna recommend people apply teas and extracts in the spring and the fall. But you can look at the weather forecasts, and if there is a forecasted rain, um, I know people don't like to drive tractors uh on wet soil, so a farmer would have to do it just before the rain. Not like just before. It's not like as soon as the microbe hits the ground, it's dead. But um if you can apply it on the same day that it's going to rain, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Amazing. And so these are things that your like your knowledge of compost and the process and the, I don't know, we'll say the interactivity of soil the soil microbiome is is amazing. A, you know, sharing and communicating that with farmers without making them be like, okay, I've got another mad scientist here who's telling me this, that, and the other. I think farmers are starting to learn more and more. Uh, but the question I've got for you is, you know, you you've mentioned a couple times um uh the soil food web school. And so can you share maybe you know about a little bit about uh Dr. Elaine, for those of you who don't know, is a world-renowned in terms of some of her practices. Um but how did you get in how did you get involved with the the soil food web school? Maybe what did it kind of teach you? And and then broadly, you know, you've you've sort of you were a part of this community of amazing people. So again, maybe just share a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

I'm so glad you asked. The community is so much fun. Um, but I'll start off by saying rest in peace, Dr. Ingham. She passed away about a week ago. Oh dear. And just before that, she turned the Soul Food Web School into a foundation. And that foundation um is like a nonprofit. They do run their courses, but at a much discounted price, and it's a lot more open access information. So um where I had to pay a lot of money uh since 2016 for the four foundation courses, the microscopy certification, and now I'm going through the consulting certification. Um, it's a lot more accessible, and that's wonderful. Um, we've also, I I say we because the soil um composting community is so collaborative and uplifting. Um, there's there's a really good online community on Instagram. Um, people are sharing information for free all the time. I really recommend the Compost Academy, which is a collaboration with Catalyst Bioamendments. Um, Keisha and Casey are making incredible compost in, I believe, New Mexico or Texas, um biologically complete, like just upping the bar. And when we see that other people can do that, we're inspired and we want to do it. And then there's the vermi composting community and the indigenous microorganism, like Korean natural farming, like ferments and anaerobic beneficials, like there, there's just so much to learn and it keeps evolving. So like look into people like Catalyst, Bioamends, and Compost Academy. Um look into uh like on Instagram, there's lots of people. Uh check me out on Instagram, um rewild underscore soils underscore lab, and follow some of the people that I follow, and you'll be part of this community that's just we're doing good things or having fun, we're getting outside, and you know, we're doing a really good thing, I think.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

But it sounds more that more than anything is you're supporting each other to be like, hey, like we're not, we're not, you know, even with me and my my community is like, hey, right, we're we're together here, we're not crazy, right? We're not we're a little bit crazy, but we're crazy for the right reasons, which is trying to fix, you know, problems that span geographies, span politics, span economics, span crops and cultures.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Yes, it's extremely diverse. Like I said in the beginning, like what I do, uh, what the microbes are doing, like this practice is built on mimicking nature and working together. Diversity is key. And like also being humble, no, recognizing that there's so much that we don't know still, and kind of trusting nature, just working with nature, picking up the cues from nature and the science um and the art and um like growing and learning together.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Yeah, and then and then just again for for any listeners, is how did you even hear, like, did you have to be pre-qualified to become a part of the Soil Food Web School? How did you hear about it? Was this just like curiosity or like does somebody have to like have a university degree or a master's to become?

SPEAKER_00 33:09

No, not at all. Not at all. I think though that it was an advantage for me coming into it with um previous microscope work from um the algae work I did during my master's. So I was really comfortable with the microscope. That's kind of a boundary for some people, but you don't need a microscope to understand the theories behind how to make good compost. Uh I do really recommend it if you're making compost tea because you want to know that you're not brewing pathogens. Um, but no, like there are there are all sorts of people that are in second career or in early career and start digging into the soil food web uh school online with free YouTube videos. Um, but there's also like tons of not just the soil food web school. Um, there's just so much information that's available for free on podcasts and YouTube pages and um really like anyone can do it. I really believe that humans, you know, we evolved from nature. And I think that there's kind of a sickness from being pulled away from nature, and we're recognizing that. So people are returning to nature, you could say rewilding. Um, and with that, anyone and everyone can have like indoor plants or a small garden or a compost pile.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Right. And and and essentially, and this is immediately as I'm, you know, we're talking through this, I'm like, well, okay, so we are dealing with potentially farmers on hundreds or thousands of acres, dealing with farmers, small-scale farmers that are on one to five acres. But then if there's somebody who's like, hey, or I'm a student, you know, I'm a grade 12 student, or I'm somebody who works in my community, like this is something, and correct me if I'm wrong, this is somebody that like something that somebody could do in a condominium in a house. Like there is there a way to like, again, with the right knowledge, you can't just I'm assuming you can't just keep putting banana peels in because then you're only going to get one type of uh you know culture per se. Uh but with a little bit of understanding, this is somebody something that somebody could do literally with a Home Depot pail, an aerator, and take kitchen scraps, and maybe there's, you know, again, a composter, and they could actually go through this process as like an at-home either research project or save their family, you know, 30 bucks a year while increasing the health of the soil and the and the food that they might be growing in a garden. Is that sort of correct?

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Yeah. Um, I think that anyone can get into this. And another avenue I I wanted to mention is community composting. So finding your local community garden. And um, there's a big increase in in groups that are doing community composting and realizing that working together, we can do more than if we were to do it by ourselves. Um, so I'm part of a group called Compost Toronto, and we work in um right now three different community gardens in Toronto. One of them is Milky Way Garden and Christy Pitts, and we uh we set a date that we're gonna build a compost pile. Everyone brings different feedstocks, um, a few pitchforks, and we take turns like flipping the pile and checking in on it and building this compost together. And in the end, we've got some compost that can go back into the garden, or we can turn it into a liquid tea or extract that people can take home and just put on their house plants.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Amazing, right? And you know, and again, as we talk about cities, especially um, because I've I've been in the city of Toronto almost all my life, um, looking at this at a community scale, which it makes it even better. I think again, you talk about you know, circular economies, circular communities. I'm sure the people that you're bringing together, not only for we'll say the experts, but just the people in the broader community who are like, hey, I want to do this, and guess what? If I volunteer a couple hours of my time and maybe my pitchfork, I'm gonna get something back from a garden. And it actually is less of uh, I would say it's probably the and maybe this you can validate it for me, it's uh less of like an economic exchange, but more of the sort of sociocultural exchange underlied by this this you know um collective theme of we want to be more sustainable. How can we do this? And and you and and the other folks uh in the Toronto Compost community are kind of like the guides, right? You're like a wise sage, right? And say, well, we can do this, let's just put a bit of structure to it. So we're not throwing meat scraps and attracting raccoons that the city would go nuts about, right? Let's do it right.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

You're you're so right. Like uh thank you for bringing that up. And I do think it's really important to have a mentor um and a community. Um, starting off with like learning um either from a specific person in person or through certain uh authors and books and podcasts and stuff. Um it does take a base level of understanding. We aren't just throwing like the meat scraps in the yard and attracting vermin. Um, so there is some guidance that's needed, but that's where having a community helps so much.

unknown 38:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

And we're all learning. I'm not saying that the mentor knows everything either, but um we're learning from each other and we're all bringing different things to the party.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Absolutely. Well, and then I think it goes back to this the broader theme and not to to um you know too much into like indigenous culture, but like traditional ecological knowledge continues to build. Yeah, right. You try things, you adapt it. Now we've got high-tech microscopes, chemical lab results. You can get a lot closer into what your desired outcome is from the process in which is you know what's going in, what's happening during what's coming out, right? So I guess you know you guys are you guys just cumulatively are the leaders. And it seems like as more and more people are are interested, as you're saying, having a mentor and somebody who can talk to, uh, you know, the YouTube university is great. Um, but I think it only takes it so far until you talk to somebody who's doing it. And then maybe as a as a community, uh, you know, it's something you all get together around because a community can shape a culture of culture of composting, you know, instead of take-make waste, it's take-make reuse. And that starts maybe with food scraps and then spans to other things like electronics, textiles, you know, single-use plastics, all those kinds of things. I think it's you're what you're working on is is a microcosm within a massive macrocosm of change.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Um, which is Yeah, it is all part of the environmental movement. And uh it's interesting though that we all started off um expert composters and and growers in our traditional knowledge for thousands of years. Composting has existed since agriculture existed. But then the green revolution came in like the 50s to 70s that promoted synthetic nitrogen and we destroyed the soil at, but we got lots of yield, but we had major negative quant consequences on the environment and on the nutritional quality of the food and and uh even the insects through the use of pesticides. Um, and then now there's this revival, like ever since like 2000 on, um, composting is is building as a response to the damage that has been caused and to the awareness of climate change and like food quality um and even mental health, people not getting outside um and working with their hands. So, composting is one of many like things that you can do to have an environmental impact, but it's a really significant one. And yeah, from like that, that even just that mental aspect that of getting outside and working with your hands and and having that biodiversity on your hands, and you know, that stuff gets in your in your gut microbiome. And we know that our gut microbiome needs to be diverse and healthy. And if we're just eating synthetic foods that have like no bacteria and no beneficial stuff in it, like we're sick people. So get out there and get dirty.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I think that's that's actually awesome because it's one of so I have two final, we'll say, questions for you because I know you're uh you're busy as the weather warms up here. I'm sure things are turning uh yes, I can't wait. But um one of the like it's just funny you mentioned that about you know, the soil is alive, getting your hands in soil. And I advoc advocate because there's been studies that say, well, by putting your hands in soil, there's literally an interaction with microbes underneath your fingernails that contributes to better, more positive mental health, right? And in a world that's faced with so many uh we'll say challenges, stresses, and pressures, both individually but also collectively, we'll say in the broader global scheme of things, um, I couldn't uh couldn't resonate more with getting out, uh getting out and getting your hands in in the dirt or in the soil, as it would say. Um now the the kickoff of the question is that um uh from what I understand, in a teaspoon or tablespoon of healthy soil, there's more microbes than there are people on this planet. Um the question to you, being the the expert here, is maybe just broadly um for those who are listening, can you give us a quick breakdown of like, well, okay, we say microbes, we say bacteria. Like what are they and what do they do? I know that there's different sort of we'll say functional groups of microbes, as you mentioned a couple um from nematodes and protozoa. Um, but maybe you can give us a quick little lesson um of just generally these categories of what's in the soil and what does it do at the highest level. I know we could talk for hours about this, but uh for sure. But that'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Yeah, so um basically what's happening in the soil, you can you can kind of see it as like you've got your terrestrial food web. We're kind we're familiar with your, you know, your plants are your primary producers, then you've got your primary consumers, which are herbivores, they're consuming the plant. And then you've got your secondary consumers, also called predators, that are consuming those herbivores. And so those are your carnivores or omnivores. Um, and then it's quite complicated. It's not a chain, um, it's a web. Uh different things eat different things. There are scavengers that are, you know, uh, what would you call that? A tertiary predator, um, quaternary predators, like it's it's very diverse. And it's the same underground, but it's microscopic. So it has been overlooked pretty much until like the 1970s, um, when microscopes became more affordable. And frankly, with Dr. Elaine Ingham's help um to encourage the use of microscopes among everyday people. So I love to bring microscopes when I do like workshops so people can see it, because seeing is believing. And um, I also insist that we don't call soil dirt. Because dirt is dead, but soil is alive. And yes, there is such a thing as dead dirt. A lot of our soils are actually devoid of the higher level microbes, and we just have bacteria. But in a good, healthy soil, you've got the soil food web in its complexity. And that includes at the base level your plants as your primary producers putting out exudates into the soil. Your primary consumers are bacteria and fungi. And they have been also scavenging sand, silt, and clay to pull off other nutrients like phosphorus, magnesium, calcium, everything that the plant needs. And the plant is feeding the exudates to attract bacteria and fungi to the root zone. And then those bacterial fungi, they have other beneficial properties like producing microaggregates, macro aggregates, you know, building soil structure, decomposing organic matter, increasing soil organic matter and carbon sequestration. But the nutrients that they have extracted from the sand, cell, and clay are stuck in their bodies in a non-plant available form until the predators come. And the predators are protozoa and nematodes on the on that very microscopic level. And protozoa are just single-celled microbes like flagellates and amoeba. And they'll eat the bacteria and certain nematodes will eat fungi. And when they die or shed or poop, they release little manure particles of plant available nutrients. And all that's happening in the root zone. So the plant is dictating what it wants, when it wants, and how much it wants. And nothing's going to waste or leaching through and ending up in our waterways, like a synthetic chemical would. And then there's higher level microbes that do things like predator or sorry, pest control. So a predatory nematode actually prefers to eat root-feeding nematodes. And in a monoculture system, root-feeding nematodes can become a problem because they can destroy a crop. But if you have a balanced soil food web, those higher level predators will keep those pests in check and everyone just kind of works together in this beautiful symphony of biodiversity. You know, it's it's complicated. But if we if we work with the whole soil food web when we're thinking about restoring soil and bringing life back to soil, then nature's gonna do the work to sort out how much of this fungi it needs and how much of this nematode it needs. And as long as we're providing the right moisture and habitat, biodiverse plants, um, like cover cropping with diversity, then we're fostering this natural system that's gonna take care of itself. So in the end, you get nutrient cycling, all the nutrients that the plant needs, um, soil building. So that's also gonna allow for better water infiltration and water holding capacity and aeration, um, pest and pathogen control, um, and then other really cool things that certain microbes do, like breaking down toxins and modifying pH. So, in a nutshell, if that's much of a nutshell for you, you've got your bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, and then the bigger guys like microarthropods, tardigrades, and then it goes up to worms and and beyond.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Wow. And really, you know, within all of the chaos is balance, right? Finding that balance and saying, well, yeah, even in my early studies in university was about um uh ecological population dynamics, right? Kind of like in the example just quickly was like, oh, well, we have too many wolves or we have too many uh deer, and then the deer population comes down because the wolves, and then the wolves go up, but then there's too many wolves, and then there's more deer, and it's just this exactly.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

And and this is why I call it rewilding, like soil rewilding, is you let nature do the work and it'll sort itself out.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

You're just a steward. You're just saying, hey, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Just provide the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Amazing. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

You you restore the opportunity, the opportunity that we kind of destroyed with the chemical revolution, but now we are uh we're nurturing the soil and bringing the life back.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Well, and you can do it on farms, we can do it in communities, and people can do it in their backyards, which I think is the amazing thing. Um now I'm sorry I said that there should be one more question, but the last question is gonna be. But there now there's a second last question. The second last question, just because, you know, um, and I think it would relate with the audience, which is why I want to ask it, because um you mentioned you have a daughter, right? And your daughter probably knows what you do or a little bit about what you do. Um what did she think about what mom does and has it spurred her into thinking about composting or working again? You you mentioned you kind of helped facilitate with that school. Just broadly, like you've you've inspired, I feel like you have inspired your daughter. Um, and maybe that's something that just quickly you can share for any other you know, mothers out there who might have this or or want to see what that that looks like for their child. Or son. Daughter or son.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Well, she's she's seven. Um, and she is uh kind of different, I think, than most kids um because she is such a big fan of helping the lesser known species. So she is like an insect protector. Um, she has a fascination with snakes, bats, and and uh spiders, um, microbes for sure. And you know, sometimes I I worry for her that she's gonna get like teased a little bit. Like she has a shirt with um a deep sea fish, like an angler fish on it. Like she's just so cool. I think she's so cool. And um, she's what the world needs. So even if you know she's a little bit different, uh, the world needs something different. And you know, I I was I was kind of that kid too, and my parents exposed me to a lot of cool stuff when I was a kid. So that's what I try to do for not just her, but the girl guides and uh other youth and other young people and uh old people, it's never too late to change. But we do have to approach our worldview a little differently than like what the vast majority of of uh the system has been pushing. Um so getting away from you know our day-to-day nine to five, it's all about money and consuming the next biggest thing to the little things. Getting outside, go for a walk in the forest and and you're right there, you're already exposed to all the microbes. Just you know, touch the soil. Don't be afraid to touch the soil. Um, yeah, maybe wash your hands if if like some soils can have some pathogens and stuff, but don't be afraid. So that's that's where I'm at with uh how I'm raising my kid.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

That's amazing, right? And then not only, you know, forest bathing is a proven thing. That's a little a quick little plug, is hugging trees is proven good for your health as well. Um, you know, and then the I think the coolest thing, maybe not the coolest thing, but one thing I love is through the process of composting, there's actually a reward feedback loop, which is uh composting, okay. We can look through a microscope. Sometimes that doesn't uh matter to people, right? They're like, oh, cool, things it's living, that's great. But if they use that and they grow a tomato and it's the best and sweetest and fattest tasting tomato, you've now realized the reward for your work because of the plant uh the plant microbiome, soil microbiome interaction. And going back to what you said earlier is you are what you eat. So our bodies inherently will be like, wow, this was really good, right? So I love it.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

And one day we're all going to be compost.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

Yep. Yep. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

Um, I I wanted to just build off what you were saying about like the the tasty tomato. And that's where I'm at now um this year, this summer, this growing season, and um beyond is proving and testing, but proving how these uh bioamendments can work in the soil to produce better plants. We know it in theory, we've seen it many times with compost, but we're still fine-tuning the exact methods and um ways of applying compost to extract and tea. Um, but that's what I love about boreal farms and demonstration gardens like that, because you can see it firsthand and you can taste it. And that really speaks to people.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Exactly. Well, thank you for the thank you for the plug in uh inviting anybody who's listening to come on down to Boreal Farms and uh ReWild and Boreal will be looking at uh hosting, I think, a couple of events over the coming months. That's what I will be discussing with Colleen after our call today. Um, but uh looking to build community, right? I do one thing building community, tying into schools, and Colleen, the work that you're doing is amazing, has impacted so many people. Now, with my last question, because I know um you got to get on with your day, um, it's less of a question, it's more of a plug. How do people find you? How do we get in touch with you? I know, and then just share maybe a little bit quickly about you've got obviously, you know, you've mentioned your consulting services, but you've also got products. So maybe just give us the quick quick the the quick the pitch about ReWild and how uh people can support you and support soils. Soil.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

Okay, thank you. Um so my website is www.rewildsoils.com. And um on that you can see my products and services and my workshops and events. I'm actually really excited about the workshops and events. I just announced a free workshop. Um, it's like a rewild open house so people can see how I make the compost and look in the microscope because, like I said, seeing is believing. Um, and uh and and rewild themselves by touring the property a little bit. Um, so that's coming up on Earth Day. Um, and then I've got a microscopy workshop on May 16th, a make compost with me workshop on June 13th, and then a make compost tea with me all the way in September. So in the meantime, I'll be I'll be at Boreal Farms, I'll be uh at a CD Saturday in Bob Cajun tomorrow. So I'm around. Um, I'm always available for a phone call. My contact information is on my website. Um, I give like 15-minute free consultations. Um, and then I'm also starting this compost club this year, where if people commit to four pickups of a compost tier extract, they get a 15% discount. Um, and that can be smaller quantities or larger quantities. Um, I just love having people come to my place to pick it up because I don't love driving all over the place. Um, and then I'm also collaborating with Compost Toronto. So uh just a pitch for them. Um, compostToronto at gmail.com, um, get in touch. We're about to launch a website and we're gonna be doing a lot of community composting events in Toronto. So uh our our goal is to make composting accessible to everyone and to make good uh biologically complete compost.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

That's awesome. And what I'm hoping we can do is actually have another another workshop of sort of backyard composting, composting at home, um, you know, hosted at Boreal Farms because now we've got a couple different types of composters. So saying you can do this, this big, this, this. I've got that vermey bin for you now. Exactly. And I'm looking forward to us uh sharing sharing what it does and how it works uh with more people. Um exciting times. Well, Colleen, I want to thank you so much for your for your time today, chatting, sharing your story, and some of your knowledge. I think we've just really caught the tip of the iceberg. Um, but really do encourage um not only anybody who's listening to to reach out to Colleen, check out her website, um, as well as if you're interested in this, you know, I'll say unconventional, but probably becoming more conventional career path. Um that it's hard hard work, but very rewarding. Um extremely rewarding. That's what that's what keeps you going just like uh just like myself. So um, anyways, with that, thank you so much for your for your time, your passion, your knowledge and insights. And um, we're looking forward to to seeing you in the coming weeks.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Yeah, and thank you for having me. It's my pleasure to share. I, as you can tell, I'm very passionate about what I do. I want to share it with the world. Uh, there's room enough in this community for everybody. So uh get in touch um and uh have fun in your gardens this spring, guys.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

Get your hands in the soil, right?

SPEAKER_00 56:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:37

Awesome. Okay, thanks, Colleen. Have a great afternoon and we'll uh we'll talk to you later, okay? Bye. All right, ciao.